Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I was reading about the Clarence impeller improvement online today. It attaches a rubber gasket to each impeller blade ceiling it against impeller housing. Most who tried it seemed to report outstanding results especially with heavy wet snow. The only place where some reported it may not be effective were on units, such as the Honda, that reportedly have very tight clearances tween the impeller blades and the housing from the factory.

Ariens snowblowers are well-known for their high-capacity high capacity. Well most large snowblowers at 12 inch diameter impellers, the Ariens have 14 inch. That is over 16% faster speed at the end of the impeller blade. Does that give them a decisive edge?

So the question is: how important is the design of the impeller to the overall system performance? Are tight clearances between the impeller and it's housing critical? If so, which brands have the tightest ones? Is the diameter of the impeller critical? If so, did he Ariens and others with large impellers have a distinct advantage? The Clarence kit is inexpensive if you can install it yourself. Should everybody be installing these kits? TheToro has a unique impeller housing. Partially plastic, it has a return for excess snow to be returned to scoop. The effective Toro and edge or is it a disadvantage?

Toro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTAAaT_sFss

Think close of how a snowblower works. Take a regular 2 stage snowblower with a 12 in impeller. The auger grabs the snow and feeds it to the impeller. The impeller throws it out the shoot.   Now lets say you have a 14 in. impeller. The auger feeds it more snow because it has more area. The impeller being bigger also gives the snow more speed when exiting into and out the shoot. This in turn gives you more throwing distance. With a bigger auger your engine has to work harder -thus you need more torque to keep it from bogging down in heavy snow.
              A lot of  snowblower companies build there snowblowers with a good amount of space between the impeller and the housing. The bigger the space the poorer the snowblower can throw  snow out the shoot.  I believe they designed it that way to make it  cheaper to build. A great and ideal snowblower will be designed with very close clearances between the housing and impeller.

        Clarences kit  corects these wide spaces making your blower act like a real pump. What is fed from the auger gets thrown out.  By closing up the gaps with the kit, you are really making your auger larger thus giving more throwing distance.
     
  If you are buying a new blower  - check the clearances of different models. Remember this to help. If one snow blower has a 8 hp engine and the12 in. impeller clearances are tight. It will blow snow like 11- 13hp snow blower with poor clearances. If you find a 11-13 hp with a 14 in impeller with tight clearances that will be one King Kong machine. I know Honda has a 13 hp unit with tracks power steering remote control everything and throws 65 '. Honda HSM1336ic HYBRID. Check that one out on u tube.

           Honda is so exspensive because they build there machines with higher quality and  strict clearances. You see on u tube how well they throw snow.  In general manufactures are designing better machines than in the past as far as throwing snow is concerned. Better clearances than in the past. engines with more torque ect.
    
         Toro uses one of there own unique designs. With there design there clearances are not that close but the snow that the impeller misses gets redirected  into it. I here it works very well.

     I do not recommend putting Clarances kit on a new snowblower.  With his kit it has to brake in. When braking in it will burn the paint off the inside of your blower housing. The kit removes all clearances.  I'm sure you do not want to do that to a brand new machine. Folks that  use the kit have older machines are looking for cheap methods of improving there machines performance . That it does. That it does well.

Thank you for your response.

I don't see how the Toro design affects clearance issues. It works on the premise that the movement of the unit and auger will provide a continuious feed of snow and that's no that wasn't ejected because it was wet or heavy will slow down the rotation of the impeller, consume power from the motor, and potentially cause the impeller to be clogged as new snow is added.

The actual cost of making a tightfitting umbrella over a loosefitting one with modern manufacturing techniques is rather small. Honda, like Sony, is able to get a premium price because of a reputation formed many years ago largely in different markets. In snowblowers Honda maintains that price by limiting availability and distribution. It makes me wish Hyundai, which has left Honda way behind in automotive engineering, also made snowblowers. :-)

One thing I'd like to clear up is the relationship between torque, horsepower, and performance. Torque is a measure of the peak force applied; it is very important when it is the force between the tire and the pavement. When it is the output of the engine it only affects the strength of the gears needed to process it. Power is the measurement of how much force will be available at a given speed; geared to the same output speed and higher horsepower motor will always produce more torque on the output shaft. One reason Briggs & Stratton stop publishing horsepower numbers is because their lower speed engines (say compared to an overhead cam Subaru) produce less power for a given engine size and peak torque.

As he pointed out, a larger impeller opening will accept more snow. However, the amount of snow and how far it's thrown would be a function of not only the size but also the speed. It was only size that counted, trucks and SUVs would be the only vehicles that can run at highway speeds. However, there are no published data for the efficiency of the impeller or its rotational speed. There are no authoritative third-party tests. The best we can do appears to be reports from our peers on forums such as this one.

There are few reports about Honda machines on this forum. They do appear to have leverage tighter clearances for greater impeller efficiency. It is much harder to tell how it works overall; owners having paid a premium price and not having others new models for back-to-back comparisons, all looking for facts to support the wisdom of the decision not to tear it down.

Are honda's really overpriced though? They are expensive, but that is because they don't produce middle and lower grade snowblowers to appeal to budget minded buyers. They only produce snowblowers marketed towards people wanting top end professional grade.
I know I would take the honda hs1132 or hs928 over the ariens st32dlet or st28dlet any day and the pricing is not that much more.

The question to ask is:what makes them 'professional grade'? I think you would be hardpressed to define a Honda feature that needs them better than the professional models from Ariens or Simplicity. Some of the features on the high-end models are very inexpensive to implement; I got back hand warmers or a freewheel lever on the handlebars it's more than $20-$30 to cost the manufacture. However, a manufacturer usually finds the need to create clear features that distinguish their less expensive units from the more expensive units.

DavidNJ wrote:
Have you ever used one? It doesn't sound like you have.

I live in an area that gets hit hard with snow. Honda's are everywhere here and they are awesome machines! The best performance,quality and reliability in the business. Yamaha is the only thing that comes close.

Having said that, I will not be buying one. That is only because I can't afford it, but if you have the money and live in an area that gets enough snowfall to justify it, its well worth the money.

Well, Honda doesn't tout their snowblowers are professional grade.  They have no affiliation with GMC so no need to ride on the coat tails of that marketing effort.

What Honda does state is that it is commercial.  Here's a cut and paste from their website:

Commercial grade components

It's all about the details. Honda snowblowers are built to last.

Just look at our two-stage snowblowers. 

• Legendary Honda GX series commercial engines
• Commercial grade hydrostatic drive
• Durable metal chutes and auger housings
• Heavy duty bronze gear on the chute rotation rod
• Large ball bearing on our engine PTO
• Heavy duty auger gear drive, constructed of steel helical cut gears, supported by high quality ball bearings
• Low pressure tires on wheel models – no need for tire chains

The list goes on and on.  And unlike our competitors, we don’t skimp on our smaller models.  The HS724 has the same grade of components as our HS1132.

You can dispute that other brands may have thicker metal here and there that makes it more "tough" or "commercial".  But it's not just about weight and thickness, unless you're into abusing and ramrodding your precious equipment, but also intelligent use of design and material selection.  I would rate Honda first in this regard, followed closely behind by Toro, and then Simplicity/Deere.  However, in terms of user friendliness, the order changes significantly.  Toro leads first, then Simplicity/Deere, and Honda at somewhere near the bottom of all the other brands.  Combine Honda's engineering with Toro's user friedliness and you got an awesome machine. 

Forget about competing in prices so you can get into doors of Walmart, Home Depot, or Lowes.  At the present, I cannot say how Honda and Toro remain to sell their product at their prices, but they do.  Maybe they are focused and determined in their strategy.  You cannot find a Honda product cheaper in the big box stores, period.  Companies that produces premium products usually enforce price control and restrict or limit internet sales, which is very effective against brand erosion, and makes it attractive for dealers to carry their product. 

DavidNJ wrote:
I wouldn't say Huyndai left Honda way behind in automotive engineering.  Toyota yes, Honda no.

Trying not to stray off topic, but if Huyndai made snowblowers, I would have problem identifying what it is.  Their crooked H looks like a Honda emblem, and I'm pondering if the exterior styling is a Nissan, Lexus, or a Mercedes.  Take a look at the current Huyndai Sonata and Genesis.  I almost mistaken the Huyndai Genesis as a baby Bentley or an Aston Martin.  Both Sonata and Genesis are good cars in it's own right at a good price, or so the automotive Kool-Aid have brainwashed me, but both cars have an identity crisis.  Outlet malls and designer perfume knock offs comes to mind.

Okay, back on topic.  You go Huyndai !!!.  Honda could use some competition in the snowblower business.  :)  Just don't make it look like a HondAriensToroDeere.

aa335 wrote:
They call it commercial grade, ariens calls it professional grade, simplicity and toro probably put some other names on it, but thats besides the point. All I meant was that when comparing pricing, you have to compare the honda to other companies absolute top end models. Honda is still more, but the gap is far less and the honda is still the better machine. Sure the others might have some bells and whistles the honda doesn't have. But people don't buy them for bells and whistles, they buy them because they want the premium workhorse in snow removal.

Have you ever noticed that almost every snowblower "comparison" type posting uses Honda as the benchmark that all others are measured against? I guess that kind of tells the story right there... And oh yeah, you definitely have to try one in a real good storm to appreciate the engineering and build quality of a Honda snowblower. I'm not saying the others are not any good as I appreciate all OPE, it's just that Honda quality has always been top notch without any gimmicks or slogans, etc...

FrankMA wrote:

I don't recall anyone using Honda as a benchmark and have yet to see and objective report. The catalog never mentions steering and it appears the 'remote' shute control is twirling a crank an unknown number of turns.  http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/pdf/Brochures/snowblower_brochure.pdf

The engines are OHV not OHC, not that big, and of moderate performance: http://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gx270 . IMHO the Subaru snow motors have better designs and specs; can't comment on construction although technicians who I've talked to also say they are better.

The only thing that Honda seems to have is a focus on impeller speed:

1. "In addition to the flat paddle auger used to discharge snow on our single-stage snowblower, Honda two-stage snowblowers come equipped with a fast spinning impeller in the discharge duct that throws snow faster and farther."
2. "single lever accurately adjusts ground speed without affecting auger rotation speed."

How is this a superior machine?