Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

How do you diagnose a 2-stroke to find out if someone ran straight gas through the engine and wrecked it?

I found a Toro snow commander snow thrower (see photo). I've never used a toro single stage so I thought I would snatch it up. The previous owner said that it did not run. Apparently it ran last year but not very well. Looks like it sat out in the rain most of its life. That's all I have to go on. 

At 24" the blower is wide for a single stage and very heavy (over 100 lbs).  The 7hp engine appears to be the same InTek 2-stroke as the Toro 3650 and 2450.  I noticed that it does have an electric start feature.

Now that the blower is sitting in the garage, I realize how large it is. Think "single stage monster."  A very odd beast,  a mass of red plastic.  Toro only sold these (model 38602) blowers for a few years (2001, 2002, 2003, ?) with a list price of $960 US. There was a Toro recall in 2006 for 2001 and 2002 models. This one is a 2003 model.  I don't think they were very big sellers (expensive, hard to handle, too many parts).

I don't have any experience with 2-strokes so this is a new adventure for me. Is there an easy way to determine if someone ran the engine with regular unmixed gas and ruined the engine? Would I notice anything when pulling the starter cord?  I thought I try to rule that out first if there was an easy way to do so. 

Good to know. I'll leave that plug in place. I found that extra jet that you mentioned under the sticker.  Everything seems pretty clean now.

In searching the Toro manuals online I found a guide with some good information.  One thing that is not clear to me is the difference between the plastic carb on the 3650/2450 and the Snow Commander.  In reading about the R-tek engine it sounded like the higher output R-Tek engine on the Snow Commander (the one with the slotted pistons) might use larger jets.  I am trying to cross reference the part number to see if this is true. But I'm not there yet.  The previous owner was not happy with the snowblower and did not use it very much. I'm going to try to get it running and see whats what, but often poor performance can be attributed to a faulty carb.  There are replacement plastic carbs for these Toros on ebay ($50) but they don't differentiate between the three blowers. There's just one carb for all three units (3650/2450 and the Snow Commander), so that leads me to believe the jets are all the same.  Really not sure. 

I plan on picking up a replacement fuel filter and spark plug today, and hopefully try starting it on the weekend.

The briggs engine manual posted at the toro web site for Snow Commanders lists two carbs (and several different jets).
The carb used differs by date code on the engine (not on the Toro snow blower). So engines with date codes before 01060700 use carb #801255 (main jet #801425/pilot jet 801309) with a plastic body and and engines with date codes after 01060700 use carb #801396 with a metal body. It's interesting to note that the metal body carb has a overhaul kit (801427) and a lists two different main jets (#801426 and #801427). Both main jets are listed for this same application. What's up with that?
The briggs literature that I pulled this from is #3364-6 and dated 08/21/2006. When I called Toro and asked they referred me to Briggs for engine information.

I've worked on a 2450, a 3650 a 221, a snow commander, and a 726te. All but the 221 had the plastic carb, and the carbs and jets on the plastic ones were all identical - same jet numbers. The plastic carbs are more prone to surging (from warping) and i believe that is why briggs switched to a metal carb. Lawn Boys with this motor had the same issue with carbs warping - otherwise the plastic carb works just fine - just don't overtighten it.

superbuick wrote:

I'll try not to overtighten. I had a plastic briggs fuel pump that warped on a leaf loader last year.  The fuel pump looked to be made from the same material as this carb.         Is the metal carb (with standard altitude jets) an option for me if the plastic carb becomes a problem?  Or are they not really interchangable?

Does the R Tek engine have reed valves.  They would be between the carb and the cylinder.  If you can look through the intake port where the carb attaches, can you see the piston move up and down as you turn the engine over?  If you can see the piston, there is no reed block.  If you cannot see the piston, it may have reeds.  If it does, pull the reeds and inspect them for cracks and cleanliness.  If no reeds and the piston is visible, take a good look at the condition of the side of the piston.  Look for scoring (vertical lines) on the side of the piston.  If there are none, that's good.  If there are some very light signs of scoring, see if you can drag your fingernail across them.  If you feel nothing, the piston is likely fine.  If you feel bumps, the piston has been compromised.  It may still run alright and if so, go with it as is.  You might also want to do a compression test.  My machines all register in around 110 to 130 psi.  If yours is in that range, compression should be alright. 

Check your exhuast for obstructions, water or dirt in it.  Take if off and blow compressed air through it.  Might have mouse nest in it.   In the unlikely event that the engine has an air filter, make sure it's good. 

How's the spark.  Is it good and strong?  Does the machine have the correct plug? 

If you've thoroughly cleaned and re-assembled the carb and everything else is OK, the engine should run.  Two strokes are notoriously simple machines which will run reliably with virtually no maintenance.  Just make sure you run the correct fuel to oil ratio and clean the spark plug occasionally.  That's about it.  I'd be very much interested to find out if you get the engine to run.  Also, do you have a link to a site where I can see a diagram of the engine?  An exploded view would be best.  Thanks and good luck. 

No reeds on the R*Tek - it is piston ported. The duraforce (lawn boy) is the same motor, but with reed valves. Both are extremely powerful motors for their size and fuel use. The metal carb will work on that motor. You may even be able to order a set of richer jets for it. Most of the lawn boy guys replace the 37.5 pilot jets on the duraforce with the 42.5 (or even a 47) from the r*tek. If you do a surge for duraforce surge or r*tek surge you'll likely get some more info on this. Also check the walk behind mower forum at mytractorforum.com - lots of lawn boy guys there (95% or so) that can give you jetting advice for the duraforce/r*tek.

On  my way home after work I picked up:
NGK spark plug $2.00
fuel filter $2.50
brigg 2 cycle with fuel stabilizer $1.50
gallon of gas $1.67

Then late last night I set the gap ( .030) and installed the plug, mixed oil/fuel (50/1), and installed the fuel filter (red 150 screen).
The carb is disassembled, cleaned, and ready to put back together. The briggs manual (Toro sold the R-TEK to briggs)  says to use blue loctite when assembling the nozzles and jets on this plastic (Milon) carb. 

I have read the description in the manual of how a 2 stroke engine works (three times) and I still don't completely understand it.  Relying on vaporized oil residue to provide lubrication to all the moving parts seems far fetched. And how does the engine dissipate all that heat, especially when contained within such a restricted area? Is service life an issue with 2-stroke motors? Is it common to rebuild 2-cycle motors (replace rings.pistons) or are these light weight engines considered "throw aways"? Are 2 stokes popular with their owners (because of their weight?) or do they primarily appeal to manufacturers focused on cost? Opoligies for my ignorance, no offense intended.   

When the plastic cowl was removed to reach the spark plug I was astonished by the size of the engine.  Very small, and there's a lot of room in there for something bigger (canidate for a 4 stoke GX-160 transplant?). 

The manual states that this engine is piston ported without reeds.

I could see into the piston with the carb removed however I could not reach in far enough to run my finger nail along the piston.  We'll just have to wait and see.

Are two stroke engines throw away?  Not hardly. 


A well designed two stroke engine built by any leading manufacturer will provide very long service life if basic maintenance and care are given to it.  In OPE applications, they should last as long, if not longer than the machines they come on.  Top end work (rings/piston,wrist pin and wrist pin bearing cylinder honing) is a requirement on very high service time engines.  I doubt a homeowner would need to do a top end re-build during the ownership of the engine notwithstanding a catastrophic failure.   I have a number of old Yamaha motorcycles from the early '70s. I was surprised to see how strong the engines still are.   Information I've read about the old Yamaha two stroke motorcycle engines tells me that a hard driven engine will need a top end job around 10K miles.  I moderately driven machine will be good for 25 to 30K miles.  A cautiously driven bike will provide much more.   Remember, these bikes will run at 8500 rpm in stock form.  Most OPE  engines run at less than half that. 

Regarding heat dissipation.  Two cycle engines fire twice as often and therefore should make more heat than a comparable four cycle engine.  However, due to the simple design of the engine head, minimal amount of head material to retain heat and the fact that fresh (cool) air is being circulated through the entire engine (crank case and combustion chamber), temperatures are kept at reasonable levels.  I modified a couple of my old Yamahas to put out quite a bit more power than stock.  Accordingly, I had concerns with additional engine heat.  After doing some research, I learned that modifying the engine heads by removing the squish band on the RD350 changes the air/gas flow characteristics enough to increase cooling considerably.  The next step was to   install a state of the art ignition system that allowed me to retard the  ignition at higher rpm thus moving heat from the engine to the expansion chamber. 

If this is your first two stroke, I'm certain you'll learn to understand how and why they are a superior engine in a number of ways.  Their incredible simplicity, reliability, compact size and outstanding power to weight/displacement ratio will garner your appreciation.   That R-Tek will blow away any four stroke OPE engine of equivalent size.   Put it back together, get it running a be prepared to be surprised with the power it will make.      

A lot to learn for such a simple looking device. I'll let it soak in.

Its not all back together but I was impatient and put some gas in anyway. It started right up. Lots of fun. Noisy and if you watch closely you can see that its smokes.  Still, it was quite a thrill to see it start. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZpSxnqzic4