Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Had the chance to work on the rare Snow Commander this week.  A friend purchased it after seeing an old S200 in action and realizing just how awesome Toro Single Stages are - he went all the way to the top of the pile with the Snow Commander and got a great deal on a used one.

This unit had been sitting outside most of its life, and needed some minor repairs, but the owner used it on a grass/dirt driveway, so the paddles are not worn at all, and the unit itself has very little use.  Most of the work required was a result of it sitting outside and/or careless/brutish owner treatment (like breaking the chute adjuster - only a plow horse brute dummy would do that)

Here's the unit after we picked it up:


and the dirt and crud inside as a result of its being used on a dirt and grass parking area:





The primer bulb on this unit had rotted/torn from exposure and while replacing the bulb is easy, what happened as a result of the torn bulb was more labor intensive.  Not only had this owner stored the unit with gas (and left it in there for years at a time), but the torn primer bulb allowed dirt into the carb via the priming tube.  The amount of crud buildup was incredible, but the most amazing part.....IT RAN.  It started on the second pull with year+ old gas and all that crud in there, and ran OK too.  Needless to say I cleaned it and rebuilt it, but I thought it was pretty amazing that it started and ran in this condition:



When the previous owner broke the chute adjuster, he tried to put it back together without the adjusting lever and used the wrong sized hardware to screw it back together.  We had to grind the bolts out because they were stripped/rusted in place.



Once everything was bolted back together, rust removed and some parts repainted, and the overall unit cleaned up (minus the chute adjuster and a new belt - still waiting for those to arrive from RCPW), I decided to take some pics of the unique/previously a mystery to me Snow Commander tilting head chassis.

Here you can see that the unit has FOUR wheels (including 2 really cool looking knobby ones):



The handle/bail, when engaged, tilts the unit forward so that the paddles contact the ground (while lifting up the 2 little wheels underneath) and it then has power-propel like all the traditional Toro single stages.  Here's a shot of the tilting mechanism:



I also took two side shots to show the difference between non-engaged and engaged (sorry for the washed out second picture, but you can clearly see the difference in the attitude of the body):

Non-Engaged

Engaged
And here are two shots of the unit as it sits now cleaned up and waiting for its chute adjuster and new belt:




The unit has 3 paddles on a drum auger instead of the usual 2 on a thin shaft.  In theory it should work great, but I haven't run it in any show yet.  The R*Tek has proven to have plenty of power, so I'm not concerned about the additional width.  Mobility of this unit, factoring in the size, the 4 wheels, and the tilting head, is not as friendly as a traditional Toro single stage, which can be used one-handed like a vacuum cleaner.  It is, however, alot more maneuverable than a 2 stage of any kind, and should work almost as quickly as a 2450/3650/221 chassis single stage unit.  As soon as I get it in the snow, I'll add more to this thread.

Nice deal on the Snow Commander.  Shouldn't be too much money to get it back to like new condition.  All the plastics looks new and the metal frame shows very little rust.

If I bought something that nice, I can't even imagine leaving it outside and subject it to abuse like the original owner.  It's good that you guys found it and rescue it from its miserable life of rotting outside.

Aren't  you expecting some 24+ inches of snow in the East coast?  Can you post a video of the Snow Commander in action?

We thankfully dodged the massive Nor'Easter that hit the DC area. In Boston, we rarely/ever get a break from crappy weather, so I'm ecstatic we didn't take the hit this week. Its looking like it'll be snowing on wed/thur of this week though, so I'll gladly get a video for you. A few guys on the other board have asked me as well. Did you pick up a 221 or the equivalent yet? I remember you were thinking about it for the past few months.

I have not decided to get the 221 or 421 yet.  I'm waiting to see what kind of end of winter deals may come up.  Last week, I saw a 221Q at HD (customer returned) for $430.  Almost bought it that one.  It was in almost new condition, no scratches, slight wear on the paddles.  For some reason, I do fear that these things may not be run properly (ie without oil).  I did feel some oil substance from the muffler opening so this one may be okay.  For the price it was listed at, I guess it was worth a gamble.  However, I was wanting to get the 421Q instead.

Funny thing about this visit to HD.  There were two 221Q used listed at the same price.  One had a service receipt from a local shop, it said that looks like the unit has NOT been ran and they went through it with their usual checks, belts, paddles, blah blah.  Turns out that out of these two units, the one with the service receipt attached had been abused for the little time it was ran.  I checked the muffler and it didn't have any oil residue, but the paddles were pretty worn.  Now either the shop was blowing smoke and wrote a bogus claim, or the HD personnel put the service receipt on the wrong unit. 

I just bought one of these machines-  I have previously owned smaller  single stage units  ccr2000  and the 2450.   This unit- snow commander is much bigger and heavier.  The gentleman  I bought if from had health problems and only used it 4 times- although it is  a 2002 model-   i checked out the recall and it was not one listed that had gas tank problems.    It was stored in basement and started on the first pull-- it does have electric start.  I am feeling a LITTLE guilty for only paying $350.00 FOR THE  commander but I have always wanted to try one as my drive is 20 feet wide and it takes  a lot of passes to get the job done with a 20" wide model.   I will   check back after the first snow and let you guys know  what I think.

I truly think that this machine was worth $1,000.00 when it was new.

John                

Ps      does anyone know the original width of the paddles at the wear holes.   this one is approximately 2.5 inches wide at the wear hole point  and about .5 or 1/2" from the center of the wear hole to the edge of the paddle?  thanks

John the bulbman--------bulbman2852@yahoo.com

What a steal for $350!  I agree, it is quite stoutly built and worth $1000 new.  However, a buyer would have to think hard about spending that amount on a single stage snowblower

I owned a troybuit 8 shp two stage unit for about 3 weeks- bought it used and muscled it around until how much I missed the convience of the toro single stage.    The reading that I have done indicates that the snow commarnder  is equal to any two stage unit of comparable sized and hsp.   Of course the standard drive on a two stage is different that the power propel of the toro.    i will NEVER  go back to a two stage unit.....the difficulity of manuvering and the added storage space. just doesnt justify   the ease of use.

this forum is great

John

I also have a 2-stage snowblower (32" wide) and I'm finding how much I enjoy using the single stage snowblower.  It is so much more maneuverable and "flickable".  Singles are great for fresh snow up to the intake height, curvy paver walkways, and tight spaces.  The 2-stage usually come out to play for the deep snow and for attacking crusty, frozen, or extremely wet EOD piles.  I also use it when it's blizzard condition outside with heavy wind blow back.  It's very comfortable behind a snowblower with a cab. 

Each have their pros and cons.  I have space in the garage so I'm keeping both.

aa335 wrote:
What's the brand and model of your single stage unit.  I have a large 2 stage Ariens and until recently I had an Ariens 7hp single stage machine model 722 EC.  I just got rid of my Ariens 722 because it performed poorly when I used it on any amount of wet snow.  Even 2-3 inches of fresh heavy snow was too much for it.   I love my 2 stage Ariens 11.5 hp machine but Ariens couldn't get their single stage machines right.  Maybe that's why Ariens discontinued the line.  I still like the idea of having both a 2 stage and single stage...but I need to find the right single stage machine.

I have the Honda HS621.  This model is no longer available for sale new in the US market, but still available elsewhere like Canada.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_O6g_uHAA4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVGE5dwn8FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzn5DrICZzU&feature=related

The only other single stage snowblower that comes even close in handling slush is the Toro 221Q / 421Q.  I really like this snowblower and may get one soon.  Either one are great machines. 

My neighbor has the Toro 221Q and I have the Honda HS621.  The Toro excel over the Honda in throwing distance, maneuverability, and user friendly features.  The Toro has newer chassis and more efficient curved auger / paddle design that gives it an edge in throwing distance, while the Honda has larger flat paddle center and torquey 4-stroke engine that handles slush and packed snow better.  However, the Honda HS621 is heavy at 100 lbs in weight and does not have the Quick Chute features of the Toro.  The Toro power propel is much more aggressive, requiring you to tip it back a bit to prevent it from going too fast.

John - That measurement is about right for brand new paddles - looks like the guy you bought it from really did barely use it.  Its a nice machine, you'll really like it.

Paul - if you get a Toro 221, you won't look back.  You'll love it.  aa335 and I have discussed single stages quite a bit on this forum.  I've never run an HS621 before, and from what aa335 says, they work great, but don't mistake them with the HS520A/HS520AS.  The HS520A and HS520AS are markedly inferior to the Toro 221/421.  I've used one back to back with a 221. They don't have the commercial grade engine of the 621, and the paddle design is not as efficient and more prone to clogging than the Toro.  In fact - the reason your Ariens 722 was unimpressive was the paddle/auger design.  Other than that, the Ariens had a great, powerful Tecumseh motor, and the rest of the chassis design doesn't affect throwing performance.

The Power Curve augers on the Toro singles are the best design available, and they do actually work as advertised.  I love my 221 and use it even on really big snows (I have a large frame 2 stage as well) because it is powerful and very maneuverable, and easy to use (dont need to man handle it or anything) 

superbuick wrote:
The HS621 has little in common with the current HS520.  They only share similar chute design.  I had used the HS520 and it had decent throwing distance in lighter snow, with tighter stream and a bit further throwing distance.  But when the snow got heavy, it quickly lose power and distance.  Also, the HS520 seems to bounce around a lot, vibrated more, and sounded noisier.  The GC160 engine is less powerful and lacks refinement as compared to the GX160 on the HS621.

The only plausible reason for the HS520 existence in the Honda product line is to compete directly in price point with Toro 2450/3650.  Overall, the HS520 isn't bad and better than other brands, except Toro.

Superbuick, funny you should mention that the Ariens 722 had an UN-impressive paddle/auger design.  I thought it was fairly impressive that it was a once piece molded auger, and comes with lifetime replacement policy.  Something just doesn't add up as to why it doesn't perform so well.  I thought it was a robustly built unit with a respectable engine and should perform fairly well too.  Perhaps someone who has owned this unit can chime in.

aa335 wrote:

http://www.abbysguide.com/ope/discussions/34631-A-1.html

ok   so i bought a used snow commander=  that was used only 4 times--- and from the condition of the paddles and the machine in general;  I believe the previous owner  only used it  4 times.  So I tried it today-- I am NOT  a happy camper...   I also own a  2450 20"   model  and the 20"  model has never plugged up....Not the same with the  snow commander----I will agree that the snow was wet   and it was not very deep..... but the snow commander plugged up a number of times and only worked ok when I moved very quickly to keep the volume of the snow up

ANy  Ideas-- I really like the extra 4 inches of the commander width,  but  I will resell it  if it can t handle the heavy snow..

John

John

I ran a Snow Commander today in sticky, wet snow (possibly te same snow as you - I'm located southwest of Boston), and while it worked ok, my Toro 221 QR is better - by quite a bit in my eyes.

The problem with the Snow Commander, in my opinion, is the extra paddle.  The paddles are closer together, and they do not have air space around them because of the drum auger (as opposed to the steel rod type as seen on the 2450/3650/221 )  In super sticky, clumpy snow like we had today, this can cause clogging because the snow has nowhere else to go but up (or forward).  I also noticed that it does not throw as far as the 221 (or even the powerlite).  I also think this has to do with the third paddle.  Some will like to think that the extra width is the issue, but the motor is more than powerful enough (I have the same motor on a 2 stage and it has no issues with bogging down in any type of snow).

Its not bad, its just not as good as the proven 21 inch models.

aa335 wrote:
aa335, the Ariens 722 that I had didn't come anywhere close to throwing heavy snow as well as the Hondas in the those videos. 

Paul7 wrote:
That is just surprising.  On paper, the Ariens 722 looks like it should do well.  It is well built and "rated" at 7 HP, 2 more HP than Ariens 522, while using the same exact engine, chassis, and paddles.  Hmm....

Maybe it was purposely crippled so that it won't tank sales on Ariens two stage snowblowers.  Who needs a big Orange when the little Orange can do so well?

aa335 wrote:
I'm an big Ariens fan but even so I can't defend the 722.  My 2-stage Ariens 5hp ST504 was still strong when I sold it after 20 years...and I love my Ariens 11.5hp machine.  That's the good new.  The bad is that I've owned two Ariens snow throwers that couldn't throw snow out of their own way.  One was an Ariens Metro...a small 2 stage blower with a plastic bucket and a 4hp 2 stroke engine.  It was pitiful.  And of course the 722 single stage machine.  Interesting that neither is in Ariens current line-up. 

Bulbman made a comment in an earlier post that makes me think that I wasn't using my single stage thrower the right way.  He said that his Commander only worked ok when he moved very quickly to keep the volume of the snow up.  That's pretty much the opposite of what I was doing.  I ran mine like I run my 2 stage...slowing up to keep the volume from being too much. 

Paul7 wrote:

Paul

Just to be clear.  I bought my snow commander used very recently.   I have only used it once.  And  the snow was wet and sticky and only about 2 inches deep.    I really wanted to try it out....... I have had other toro single stage machines and yes you do have to have some volume of snow to keep the snow flowing out of the chute.   i am anxious for the next  fluffy snow to try it again.   OR NOT.  maybe we wont have any more snow and I can go golfing

John the bulbman

Kalamazoo  Michigan

LATEST UPDATE:     I had a section of sidewalk that was never cleared of snow.   Since the weather turned a little colder and the slush was gone  I tried the SNOW COMMANDER again.   This time it cleared 10" of snow that was packed and crusty    with ease.  Guess I will hang on to this snow blower for another season to give it a real try.

John the bulbman