Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

i'm interested in buy a 24in simplicity snowblower for a driveway i'll say 60 x20 with a small slope upwards from the house. same engine and torque as the L1226E. aluminum gear case though. any kind of help will appreciated.

So Jack, what kind of help are you looking for?

Are you buying used or new? What kind of price?

The machine you're looking at is big enough for the job provided you're not in a huge snow fall area.

new at 850.00. i'm in western mass. last year was a so-so year for snow , but i hear this winter could be bad.  usually the storms are 5-12 inches. sometimes wet, sometimes fluffy. you know the score borat.  lol

hi borat, so do you agree with this choice? how good is the aluminum gear housing?  thx

The aluminum gear cases used on the premium machines seem to be stout looking. Much sturdier than the can opener gears on the MTD/AYP products I've seen recently in the box stores. For twenty years I had previously owned two Craftsman 10 h.p. machines that had aluminum gear cases. Never had a problem with them. I wouldn't be too worried about it.

thanks for your info. is 850.00 a good price for the 1124e? and what parts should be lubricated.

jack wrote:
Here's some info from another post:

First thing I'd do is pull the wheels off and use a good water resistant grease to lube the axles. Snowmobile grease is great for snow throwers. Although not necessary, I like to use an outdoor cable/chain/gear grease in a spray can (motorcycle chain lube will do) to lube the drive chains inside the chassis. Make sure you cover the friction plate and drive disk before applying the grease to the chains. You don't want to get any on them. Lube all friction points for the controls. While you're in there, put a thin layer of oil on the hex shaft. I like to use a light spray grease on pivots and light multi purpose oil to spray into the insides of any cables. Grease the auger shaft.

Check belts for condition and proper tension. Go over all fasteners with a wrench to tighten anything that might be loose. Make sure you're fuel tank is clean and passing fuel to the carb. If the machine is running well, chances are they're fine. If there's no obvious leaking at the auger drive gear case, I leave it as is. As long as there's lube inside and it doesn't have a catastrophic event, it should last the life of the machine without messing with it. Others might disagree but I've never had one leak nor changed fluid in one in twenty years.

so borat do i buy it? seems like the best one overall.  thx

For your application, it seems like a decent choice. The price is good. I'd go for it.

anyone else out there have any comments to add  thank you

jack wrote:
There are better deals for the money than this unit. Briggs Power Products has followed a business plan that involves accumulating a premium brand portfolio (Snapper and Simplicity), then placing those brands on less esteemed equipment (Murray). The true intermediate platform for Simplicity (the latest being the 860EI) was discarded years ago. So were the legacy Snapper designs. Even the "Large" Simplicity platform is heavily compromised (only the blower head remains as a substantial legacy Simplicity assembly, and even that was compromised with a change to use grease instead of gear oil in the auger gearbox). That is, this Simplicity you are considering is a red Murray. $850 is too much for this configuration. I would suggest you look around at the mass retailers. You can get a bigger 27" Brute or Murray branded (similar) machine for the same $$ (on sale) with more features (even a Snapper at Sears, they have the M1227E at sears for $899 quite often). Wallyworld, Menards, Sears....

An Ariens 24E Deluxe would be a good upgrade at $899 as well (if a headlight is a big deal to you, a kit is available). The Husqvarna-built Poulan stuff is also higher grade than this Simplicity machine if you've considered such and have that preference.

Lastly, it's not snowing much most places. Hold out for a good deal and keep your eye on the weather. As soon as snow is eminent, the deals go away...

Snowmann: How does the use of Benalene (liquid grease) compromise the quality of the gear case and components therein? Don't understand that comment. My 2006 built Simplicity was manufactured in the old Wisconsin plant. It has the cast iron gear case and the manual specifies Benalene for gear case lubricant. Does that mean that B&S had begun to compromise Simplicity large frame manufacturing back then? As far as I know, B&S acquired Simplicity some time in late 2004. Being that they de-comissioned the Wisconsin plant in October of last year, why would they alter the assembly lines to produce a different product just to dismantle it a few months later? Something doesn't sound right there. I do not disagree with your assessment of currently manufactured machines. They are not in the same class as their predecessors regardless of brand, other than the Japanese products of course. In Canada, $800.00 does not get you much of a machine. By comparison, the Simplicity in question, according to available information, is much more robust than the offerings I've seen at the large retail outlets. Take a look at the gear case on Yardman, Craftsman, Cub Cadet, Troy Built machines for instance. It looks like it could have come off a can opener. The gear case on the Simplicity machine in question is closer to that used on the Ariens than those machines. The Simplicity may be compromised but I don't believe that it's as cheaply built as many other offerings out there. I still maintain that for the money, it's not a bad buy, particularly if the OP can get a discount.

i will go to the dealer and ask about the difference in the two  thx guys

borat wrote:

Benalene isn’t liquid grease. It’s a trademark name for a type/brand of grease, like Mobilux. The NLGI number indicates its grade which indirectly affects viscosity. NLGI 0 and 00 are liquid greases. Your particular grade is not (it’s an NLGI 1). It is possible Benalene is no longer manufactured as the latest Simplicity manuals call out Lubriplate GR132, Mobilux EP1, and Shell Alvania EP1, all of which are NLGI 1 (as are the John Deere X-references).

 

Sometime between 2004 and 2006 (likely when the gear case castings changed to cast iron) Briggs switched from gear oil to grease. Grease is easy to seal (especially the higher NLGI grade numbers). The move to cast iron could have created some sealing problems (iron generally has less casting precision when compared to aluminum die cast). Grease is inferior for this application in comparison to EP gear oil. It’s an easy fix for short term complaints at the expense of long term durability. Honda, Yanmar, Toro, and Ariens use EP rated gear oil (along with large steel gears); the rest generally use grease and smaller bronze gears (it’s easier to hob the gear teeth with bronze/brass).

 

NLGI 1 grease does not flow like oil and will not provide a wet sump to facilitate lubrication. Grease will displace from dynamic parts and collect in voids and adhere to the casting walls (more so as the temperature gets colder, and no, the gear box doesn’t get warm enough to liquefy the grease in use). In time, there is a likelihood of a dry or near-dry running condition. The non-compatible bronze used on the worm gear has some forgiveness for this, but not enough over the long term. The flow capability of oil is obviously one reason (among many) why most automotive engines, transfer cases, differentials, and transaxles use oil instead of grease (highly dynamic parts). Light constituent petroleum base oils in this particular grease can also separate and dissipate over time leaving only a wax-like substrate (the lithium soap thickener). EP additives, which are the primary EP protection in petroleum based grease, can also be consumed leaving the lubricant incapable of protecting the parts (not to mention they are typically corrosive to copper which your gear and some of your bushings are made from). Lastly, in general, spur and helical gears can use lesser lubricant due to the limited localized pressure and sliding action. Worm gears and Hypoid gears need something better.

 

Unfortunately many gear cases designed for grease will not take gear oil without leaking. Where there are paper gaskets and grease seals or o-rings on grease equipped boxes, gear oil boxes use anaerobic sealant, rubber gaskets, garter-spring oil seals, etc. If it were mine though, I’d still try to top it off with synthetic 75W-140 GL5 MT-1 hypoid gear oil. The synthetic base oil handles most of the EP protection so there is no worry about additive consumption, and the MT-1 indicates good copper compatibility (amongst other things). The film strength is top notch, and the viscosity is high enough that it would slow leakage. The “pour point”, which indicates the cold flow capability, is also often under -50F.

 

I’ve seen the prices of snow blowers in Canada. Horrible. If this I1224E unit is $850 in Canada, then it is a steal. The aluminum gear box on this and other similar models is extremely close spec-wise to the Simplicity Cast Iron version - internally (although its origins are from Murray). It is not a bottom of the barrel gear case (but again, the grease…)

 

Lastly, while your 9528 unit has the corporate brand address for Simplicity posted on the machine, it may have no bearing on which of Briggs’ plants it was manufactured in (it doesn’t say “manufactured at” implicitly). For the very reasons you state, it could have been manufactured in a facility other than Port Washington, but that is just my speculation. Regardless, the assembly location would have little effect on build quality (but it could explain a small manufacturing change like using grease).

I guess the engineers at Simplicity just dont know what they r doing.Maybe Snowmann can explain as to why Ariens is always updating,modifying their modification to their modification??Can they just not get it right?Snowmann you do offer long winded technical explanations as to why Ariens does everything right.But why do so many people have complaints about their machines on this forum and others??Im not an engineer but I spoke to a lot of people who r knowledgeable about snowblowers and I was told get a Simp pro they r excellent machines.As far as Ariens,I was told they were great machines but their quality is not as good as it use to be. But I guess if i was a hack for Ariens I would be saying they r the best in all aspects like Snowmann does.P.S. Snowmann Im still waiting for the video where an Ariens throws snow farther than  a Honda.Yea I know Consumer Report says it does...

Personally, I don't think that marginalizing any brand gets us anywhere. However, considering that ALL of the domestic snow thrower manufacturers are sliding down the same slippery slope to mediocrity, it should be recognized as such. Let's face it. None of the premium brand manufacturers are making machines anywhere near as stout as they were ten years ago (except the Japanese). Pointing out that brand "A" has made compromises in quality while ignoring that brand "B" is doing similar stuff obviously shows bias. We have to come to grips with the realization that unless we buy a Honda or Yamaha, we will be getting an increasingly inferior product. I don't see that changing any time soon. This is not progress folks and it's not just an OPE thing. This new production model for manufacturing mediocre machines is becoming prevalent in much of our heavy consumer products. Appliances such as washers and dryers are not nearly half as good as they were twenty years ago but cost three times as much to buy! What's wrong with that picture? Why are the North American domestic vehicle manufacturers sucking wind compared to the Asian plants? Same reason. Producing inferior products and expecting premium prices. One would think that the recent economic crisis and everything bad that came with it, would have been a wake up call for North American industry. Sure, GM/Ford/Chrysler are all promising better products at competitive prices but lets see if they deliver. I have my doubts. The Chinese are on the same road that Japan was in the mid 60s to late 70s. Their products weren't perfect but they weren't expensive either. As we all know, it didn't take too long for the Japanese to get it right. So right in fact that they have far better quality in just about everything they build and export to our countries than what we build domestically. When China gets to the level of perfection that the Japanese did, the consequences will be very dire indeed for North American industry provided our governments don't put tariffs against Chinese imports. We will have no one to blame but ourselves. Simplicity, Ariens, Toro.... take your pick. They're all pretty much going in the same direction. The only real difference is how much you are willing to pay for the brand name your prefer on the mediocre machine of your choice. My suggestion is to pay the least you can for equivalent machines of any domestic brand. Or, find an older premium brand model in decent shape, re-power and recondition as required. Better yet, get a Honda or Yamaha. You know the Japanese put far too much value on quality to build inferior products and they'll continue that way. Price is heavy, I agree. Chances are however, that with proper maintenance, .you will only be buying one. I'm glad I was lucky enough to get my hands on one of the last well built Simplicity machines from the Wisconsin plant, (liquid grease and all). I don't care what anyone says. It's one stout snow thrower and gets the job done as good as anything I've seen with very little fuss.

My comments were not about liquid grease, they were about the NLGI 1 grease in your gear case (again, it is not liquid grease). NLGI 0 and 00 are liquid greases (there is even the rare 000). NLGI 1 is already thick at room temperature (relative to gear oil) and only thickens as the temperature drops. If you take your auger gear box apart, you can tip the castings into any orientation without grease falling out of them (I've done this with your gear case, same model, same year). "Dropping point" is a measure of the temperature at which the grease approaches the fluid state in which it will flow. For NLGI 1 grease this value is over 375 degrees Farenheit (a temperature which the gear box will never achieve and which is even in excess of the recommended usage temperature). NLGI 0 and 00 (and 000) greases do not have enough lithium soap thickener to have this characteristic, and are incrementally closer to gear oil as the NLGI grade lowers. They flow fluidly at the operating temperatures of auger gear boxes.

For cold weather your NLGI 1 grease is probably excellent in applications that specifically require extra adhesion from the lubricant. If you used NLGI 00 in ball joints, ball bearings, etc. the seals are not robust enough to hold this lubricant (not thick enough) and they would be dry in short order. This is the benefit to better retain the oil in the auger gear cases (the downside is again lesser quality lubrication). Many folks have used machines that lasted a long time with this type of grease without servicing. It's not like it's filled with sand. My point is it's not best in class, the premium brands do not use this lubricant, and the likelihood of more gear oil equipped machines still being in service 10+ years from now is much higher.

Ariens used NLGI 00 liquid grease in their gear boxes some 25-30 years ago or thereabouts. Again, this grease approaches gear lube type flow and was not much different than available gear lube at the time as most, if not all, mainstream gear oils were petroleum based. Ariens upgraded to EP gear oil at that time (EP4, followed by copper safe EP5 at a later date), and just recently synthetic 75W-140 GL5 MT1 Hypoid oil. The difference here with the Briggs/Simplicity comparison is continuous improvement. Ariens has continuously upgraded this lubricant and never downgraded the lubrication.

I would agree borat but my craftsman 5 hp snowblower is 6yrs old and havent had any problems with it.I've only had to change the belts,oil and spark plug.My moms 2005 buick LeSabre has had no problems.But my 2001 accord had to have the transmission rebuilt at 30,000 miles ,the passenger window didnt go all the way up and the car sounds like a tin can.Hondas are notorious for skimping on sound insulation.I've owned ford escorts and they were reliable cars.Also Ford is building good cars.The Fusion and Escape are getting rave reviews for reliability. 

wow this is a great discussion simplicity or ariens my dealer sells both

I don't claim to be an expert on lubrication. However, from the information gathered below, I'm having difficulty translating Simplicity's choice of lubricant as being a step backward. Seems to me, that if you never have to change the lubrication, that would be a good thing. Information from JD/Simplicity manual for gearbox maintenance. Second line pretty much sums it up. Checking Gearbox Lubricant Auger gearbox has been lubricated at factory and SHOULD NOT require additional lubrication. If for some reason the lubricant should leak out, or if the auger gearbox has been serviced; check lubricant. M71588 1. Remove check plug (A). 2. If you cannot see grease, use a wire or plastic tie strap to check for grease. · If you can see grease on wire or tie strap, do not add grease. 3. If necessary, add John Deere High Temperature EP Grease 100 gr (3-1/2 oz) maximum when gearbox is empty or an equivalent, such as: · Benalene No. 372 · Shell Darina 1 · Mobiltem 78 · Texaco Thermatex EP1 4. Install check plug. Thermatex 000 and Thermatex EP greases are organoclay greases formulated specifically for applications where a non-melt product is required. Product Application Thermatex 000 has excellent feedability to gears and bearings. It is recommended for the lubrication of mining machinery and textile equipment, especially equipment where central greasing systems are intended. Thermatex EP greases are for the lubrication of furnace door bearings, kiln car wheel bearings and shafts extending through furnaces. Product Description and Features Thermatex 000 is an organoclay grease containing a viscous base oil. Thermatex EP are organoclay greases containing extreme pressure additives. They are extremely resistant to water washout and protect against corrosion. Benefits In service Thermatex 000 and Thermatex EP greases provide: Non-melt thickener for high temperature service Good pumpability Excellent resistance to water washout Extreme pressure properties (Thermatex EP) Product Description: Shell Darina® Greases SD are multipurpose, non-soap greases. They give excellent lubrication for extended time periods, in wet or dry applications, and over a wide range of temperatures. They are also formulated to provide extreme pressure (EP) characteristics. Shell Darina Greases SD are based on a non-melting bentonite clay thickener system. Due to the inert nature of the clay, these greases are suitable for applications where the lubricant is exposed to contaminants such as water and chemicals found in many industrial applications including chemical plants and paper mills. These greases are not recommended for use in centralized lubrication systems. Applications Excellent for applications in the following environments: • industrial grease-lubricated machinery at temperatures up to 250°F (350°F with frequent lubrication) • ball, roller, and sleeve bearings, as well as sliding surfaces and grease lubricated gears • wet and heavily loaded applications • chemical plants and paper mills, where grease is exposed to very wet conditions • mining and process plants, where crushers, screens and kilns are operated at high temperatures Features/Benefits • non-melting • excellent resistance to water washout • good load carrying capability • good resistance to rust and corrosion Mobiltemp 1 and 78 Product Description: Mobiltemp Series greases are high performance clay-thickened products designed for the lubrication of plain and antifriction bearings operating at low speed and high temperature or under cycling conditions from ambient to high temperatures. These greases use a clay thickener, which, unlike traditional soap thickeners, do not soften at high temperatures. They are based on a high quality, high viscosity mineral oil and are specially formulated to provide: low volatility and excellent resistance to oxidation at high temperatures, resistance to water washout and good anti-wear performance under heavy loads and low speeds. Mobiltemp 1 and 78 are NLGI Grade 1 greases, and Mobiltemp 2 is an NLGI 2 Grade. Mobiltemp 78 also contains molybdenum disulphide for added anti-wear protection. Mobiltemp Series greases are particularly suited for high temperature applications, and are very resistant to water or steam contamination. These greases have excellent resistance to changes in consistency under both high temperature and cyclic conditions of heating and cooling. Even with severe working under such conditions, they will not soften or harden significantly. Because they use low volatility base oils, these greases resist hardening when the grease is held at high temperatures for long periods. Mobiltemp Series greases have excellent resistance to water washing and, under humid conditions, can absorb about its own weight of water without any major change in structure or consistency. Mobiltemp Series have good flow properties and can be used with centralised grease systems down to 10ºC, even with long distribution lines. With its additional anti-wear additization, Mobiltemp 78 is particularly suitable for the lubrication of sliding machine elements subject to limited or slow motion or shock loading. With their excellent track record of superior performance in critical high temperature applications, Mobiltemp Series greases have become the products of choice for users around the world. Features and Benefits The Mobil brand of greases is well known and highly regarded worldwide based on their outstanding performance and the RandD expertise and the global technical support that stand behind the brand. The highly versatile performance of one series of lubricants in this family, the Mobiltemp Series, has made them the choice of many users around the world. Mobiltemp Series greases enjoy an excellent reputation in the lubrication of high temperature applications where conventional soap thickened products are not viable. Close contacts with Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and end-users ensure that products such as the Mobiltemp Series will be available to meet critical application needs. The Mobil brand of greases is well known and highly regarded worldwide based on its outstanding performance and the RandD expertise and the global technical support that stand behind the brand. Mobiltemp Series greases were designed specifically for difficult, high temperature applications, and offer the following advantages and potential benefits. Features Advantages and Potential Benefits Excellent protection against wear at high temperatures Reduced downtime and maintenance costs Will not soften and leak from bearings Extended intervals between relubrication Very good resistance to water washout and steam Maintains bearing protection and keeps equipment running even with gross water contamination High stability under high temperature environments and temperature cycling conditions Long product life under arduous conditions. Resists grease hardening and "frozen" bearings Very good anti-wear properties Protects equipment, even at low speed and under shock load, and reduces unexpected downtime Good low temperature properties Effective low temperature dispensing and machine start up Applications Mobiltemp 1 and Mobiltemp 2 are recommended for the lubrication of plain and antifriction bearings or sliding machine elements in applications operating at low speeds and high temperatures or under cycling conditions from ambient to high temperatures. The grease will not soften and leak under high temperature conditions or harden excessively on cooling. The recommended operating temperature range is 0 to 170º C, with even higher temperatures for short periods, with appropriate relubrication intervals. Mobiltemp 78 is recommended for similar applications to Mobiltemp 1 but the presence of molybdenum disulphide makes it particularly suitable for the lubrication of sliding machine elements subject to long relubrication intervals, limited motion or shock loading. The recommended operating temperature range is 0 to 170º C. Specific applications for Mobiltemp greases include: Oven conveyor chain bearings Kiln car wheel bearings Glass manufacture conveyer belt roller bearings Cams, ways and other sliding machine elements (especially Mobiltemp 78) Back to Top Typical Properties Mobiltemp Series Mobiltemp 1 Mobiltemp 2 Mobiltemp 78 NLGI Grade 1 2 1 Thickener Type Clay Clay Clay Color, Visual Amber Amber Gray-Black Penetration, Worked, 25º C, ASTM D 217 325 280 325 Dropping Point, ºC, ASTM D 2265 300 300 300 Viscosity of Oil, ASTM D 445 cSt @ 40º C 460 460 460 cSt @ 100º C 31.7 31.7 31.7 Four Ball Wear, ASTM D 2266 Scar, mm 0.5 0.5 0.5 Four Ball EP, ASTM D 2596 Weld Load, kg 200 200 200 Load Wear Index, kgf 50 50 50 Copper Strip Corrosion, ASTM D 4048 1A 1A 1A Wet Roll Stability, ASTM D 1831 Mod., Penetration change, 0.1 mm -60 -60 -60 Penetration Change, ASTM D 217, 60X to 100000X, mm/10 +50 +50 +50

mikiewest wrote:

Mikie: your experience is the exception. Not the rule. I speak from personal experience, and pretty much general knowledge shared by those I know willing to speak the truth. Asian vehicles are simply built better. Pick up any consumers guide and look at reliability and repair records for vehicles going back twenty years or more. It's pretty much an accepted fact by most of the world that Asian vehicles are much more reliable. When I walk down my street and see that 75% of the vehicles being driven are Asian, that has to tell us something. Right? I'm sure that if you live in a location where there is a domestic vehicle plant, there will be an understandable skew of the numbers in favour of domestics due to brand loyalty/employee ownership. However, I'm a thousand miles from any vehicle manufacturing plants. We live and drive in very harsh conditions. People here buy what works and costs least to maintain.

borat that might have been true but ford fusion and escape have gotten very good to excellent ratings for reliability.Also maybe that japanese car might be more reliable but when you have to fix it,its much more expensive to do so.

mikiewest wrote:
Actually I think that Snowmann provides very fair-balanced information.  I appreciate his willingness to share his knowledge on this board.  He knows more about Ariens so of course he's going to discuss Ariens products.  Frankly I wish that someone associated with Simplicity (or is it Briggs now), Toro, Honda, etc...would be as willing to share their expertise on this forum as well. 

i will bring up the lubrication need with the dealer when i purchase it. my husky 8527sbe manual says no lubrication needed,was done at the factory although i did spray some silicone on the pivot points.

jack wrote:

I'm assuming that the manual was referring to the auger gear case not requiring lubrication. My Simplicity manual says the same thing. Elsewhere, any machine with exposed moving parts, working in wet and occasionally salty conditions will require lubrication regardless of what the manual says. Unless you want your wheels rusted to the axles, augers rusted t the shafts, premature wear/damage to control linkage, cables and drive chains etc. you'd be wise to put a bit of effort into keeping the machine lubed. Particularly if you don't do your own repair work. The bill adds up pretty quick trying to get a rusted wheel off at a repair shop at $82.00/hr.????? (can you believe that?)

At those rates,one is better off taking a course on how to maintain their snowblower.Oh and dont forget the outrageous p/u and del of ur snowblower rate....

borat i have noticed rust on the axle on my husky should i take the wheel ,sand the rust ,then lub it with what? your the man borat

jack wrote:

Yes. You should clean up the axle and put any decent marine or snowmobile grease on axle shaft and inside wheel. You don't need to get down to shiny steel on the axle. Just get any lumpy stuff of of it. I find that medium grip sand paper is good for that. If you have no supply of grease nor a grease gun, you can get a small single hand operated grease applicator and grease for less than $20.00 at any large auto parts store. You'll need the grease gun to lube the auger shafts and any other component with zerk fitting sticking out of it. As Mikiewest says, it would be beneficial to learn something about the equipment and do as much work as you can. As previously mentioned, the shop rates at some service outlets are utterly ridiculous. You can do a bit of preventative maintenance now and it will save you big bucks down the road.

I need to replace the auger belt on my simplicity snowblower.I followed the manual but can't pull the belt out between the auger pulley and drive belt pulley..There is not enough clearance  Any suggestions?

I just wanted to add my $0.02 on the gear box lube issue. When I rebuilt my 20 yr old MTD I opened the gear box to find that the grease had "dried up" and crawled into the far recesses as Snowman mentioned. There is no opening on this unit, so no way to add lubricant short of dissassembly. When talking to the older gent who does OPE repairs here in town, he suggested to drill a hole in the gear box so you could add a bit of gear oil once in a while. Would the oil mix with the grease or would it behave like oil & water.

There also seems to be a run on Ariens gears this year which leads me to believe that despite what the manufacturer says (planned obsolesense), you should always plan on having to crack the gear box to replace the grease (if that is what they use). I guess frequency would depend on use, ie. more often if you do a lot of heavy wet snow & EOD.

Snowman, if the manufacturer calls for NLGI 1, could we safely drop to an NLGI 00 to ensure proper lubrication of the gears?

Thanks

GtWtNorth, the gear case may not be capable of sealing such a low viscosity grease. I would recommend you use the NLGI 1 again, just use a synthetic EP version.