Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I know that this has been brought up many times before, but I wanted to hit this one again.  Most know that Tecumseh is now bankrupt and there are no engines available and there are no plans to make any more engines at this point.  It doesn't mean that they will never make any engines, but right now nothing is for sure.  Ariens was always a proud user of the Tecumseh snow king line of engines.  How would you feel about buying an Ariens with a Tecumseh engine in it right now?

I was in Home Depot this weekend and saw the latest batches of the 927LE.  These new units came with Briggs Snow Max engines that produced 13.5 foot pounds of torque and sold for $1050.  .  The Ariens web site does not reflect this change yet.  I think the Snow King engines are very nice units that have proven themselves in the field or in this case the snow.  The other reason to use Tecumseh for Ariens was always a marketing way to differentiate themselves from products put out by B&S, including the B&S name plate, John Deere, and Simplicity to name just a few (I'm sure there are many more).

When I think of snow engines I personally think pretty simplistically.  I think of the Tecumseh, B&S, Honda and the many Chinesse engines no matter who's name plate is on the sheet metal.  Would love to hear your comments.

Rick

If there's money to be made, there will be third party companies jumping into this opportunity to produce service parts for Tecumseh engines.  At worse, there are at lot of Tecumseh engines out there that can be parts donor as well.

I would put money on it that there will be third party vendors, but at what price?  They are going to do it to make money from people that don't have any other choices.  I just don't know if this is in the Tecumseh engine buyer's best interests.  It has me wondering and that is the reason for the post.  The truth is, in the current economic environment with companies going out of business left and right, there are no guarantee's no matter who's engine you buy.

Clay wrote:

The "invisible hand" will guide the prices to what's appropriate.  If the prices are too high, that will encourage more companies to jump in and get a piece of the pie.  

Clay wrote:

While B&S purchased Simplicity and Snapper in 2004, and while Simplicity currently makes the John Deere snow throwers, B&S doesn’t own John Deere.  It's not one of their name plates.

As for Tecumseh, the engine and power train division was acquired by Platinum Equity in November, 2007. The parent company is the real Tecumseh, but they don’t sell small engines any more, They are traded on NASDAQ and reported a 9 million profit in August, 2008.

The Platinum Equity owned Tecumseh is now known as the Tecumseh Power Company and still seems to be in business and making engines. Do you have any information to the contrary that you can link to?

MacLorry27 wrote:

Good points all.  I am more on a fact finding mission and want to know the real story than having to have any factual infomation to offer myself.  I have read many times on various boards and heard from various snow thrower sales people that Tecumseh was out of the engine making business, but MacLorry seems to say something different.  I'll check the link out that you provided and physically call the company and see what I get out of them as long as they are in the US to call. 

I was on the phone with Ariens this morning and trying to get information out of them was very difficult indeed.  The customer service rep that I spoke to said that they were manufacturing current orders that were not filled this year with B&S engines, ( I saw that with my own eyes at Home Depot).  She also said that the decision has not been made, (which I hear as "Not available to the public yet") on which engine will be used in the 2009 product line.  I sent them an email asking for information in writing.  When Ariens received it, they said that the response should be within 2 days.  I'll try to update this post when I get information back from them, IF they provide any useful information.  If the engines are not currently available, they are producing machines with B&S power plants instead of Tecumseh engines, I wonder how they plan on servicing warranty work.  These are all just concerns and I make no clain of any inside info.  I'll call Tec Power Company and follow up.

Rick

Wow, was that UGLY.  5 phone calls, in a short time frame and trying to navigate the automatic system.  Each time it would end up telling me to contact a local service center and then hang up on me.  I got this phone number from a service manual. 

TecumsehPower at 1-800-558-5402 or 262-377-2700 The 1-800 number kept giving me this message:  "Your call cannot be completed at this time", read into that what ever you want.  Could be my phone service carrier, could be the number is disconnected.  I did get through to the automated system with the 262 number but never made it through the maze.  I even tried to get a company directory or making up an extenstion number, the company directory you had to spell someone's name so I put in a sta and nothing came up and then they cut me off.  I tried extension 0, and 100 to no avail. 

Anyone know of a different number with a live person that I can talk to about the current state of their business.  I have heard so many different things from different dealers, I think half the time they make stuff up or are repeating some rumor that isn't fact.  I would like to talk to someone at the company itself instead of a dealer.  Any ideas?

I'll try another series of calls and see what happens. 

Rick

Update, after spinning my wheels a lot today I finally was able to contact a real live person.  They work for Central Power Distributor's in Wis and I found them listed in the regional listing for Tecumseh power here:  http://www.tecumsehpower.com/frameset.php?page=CustomerService/ServiceLocator/index.php

The guys that I talked to Said "They are no longer in business and they will never make any more engines" .  I asked him to repeat that and he did. He said that "someone could buy that part of the company but they are not making engines now.  He said, don't worry about parts and warranty but when pushed on the subject of getting replacement parts down the road the Tec distributor had to admit that it could be difficult once the current part supply is gone until third party vendors kicked in.  I'm just confirming my own believe's that right now given the choices, a consumer is probably better off to buy one of the other engines available if all things are equal. 

Rick

Good info.  Thanks.  I would hope that with all the Tecumseh engines in use that 3rd party vendor would be all over replacement parts.

Clay wrote:

Ok I called Platinum Equity at 310-712-1850 in Beverly Hills, CA and talked to a guy named Mark. Tecumseh Power is one of their holdings and he told me they shut down engine manufacturing at the end of 2008 and that it’s unlikely they will ever start up manufacturing again. However, you can buy some parts on-line directly from the Tecumseh Power web site.

Would I buy a new snow thrower with a Tecumseh engine? Probably not as I would be concerned about any warrantee work. However, I’m not too concerned about the equipment I have that does use a Tecumseh engine, other than I might buy a few air filters and spark plugs for them.

Sad to see Tecumseh go the way of the dodo bird and with Honda and now Yamaha selling snow throwers, how long can American brands compete?

"Sad to see Tecumseh go the way of the dodo bird and with Honda and now Yamaha selling snow throwers, how long can American brands compete?"

With the recent down turn in product quality of a couple of prominent snow thrower manufacturers in order for them to enter into the box store market, and the continued consistent quality of Honda and now Yamaha, I'd say the plan for self destruction is pretty much set for domestic manufacturers.    Look at the auto sector in Detroit.  Their arrogance and hubris allowed them to keep their heads in the sand for almost 40 years.  The writing has been on the wall for at least that long and finally, they've pulled their heads out  just in time to read the bad news.   A loyal customer who learns that the new machine they have just purchased is not nearly as robust as the one of the same brand that they are replacing, will not be coming back for another one.  In addition to that, he/she will not be giving the new machine very good reviews when it starts to break down.   The logic of compromised manufacturing quality eludes me. 

And....I don't buy the "advanced more efficient productions methods" smoke screen either.  Cheap is cheap, plain and simple.   

Clay wrote:
First of all I don't think Tecumseh went bankrupt.  I believe they were bought out by an equity fund who just
threw that division in the garbage once they got their hands on the parts they were interested in.  This kind
of thing bothers me more than any possible decrease in quality that may be happening in the industry.

When I bought my new Ariens in November / December I knew that Tecumseh was finished but I bought
the machine with its Tecumseh engine anyway.  I have no experience with B&S engines but the Tecumseh
10hp L-head on my old snowblower has lasted ten years without requiring anything other than oil changes
so I felt pretty confident about the new one doing the same.

Paul

Earlier, someone asked for a link.  I see that additional research was done, but here is an article from the time period when Tecumseh's desmise was first reported.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122602502818007621.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

mfduffy wrote:

I couldn't read the whole article without subscribing but thanks for the link. 

borat wrote:

Toyota came out with the Camray in 1983 and that model continues to flourish today.  By contrast in 1983 I bought a Chevrolet Citation (mid sized family car).  Chevrolet made the Citation from 1980 to 1985.  Then they replaced it with the Chevy Celebrity which was produced until 1989 when it was replaced by the Lumina, which was latter replaced by the Impala.  

Detroit strategy was to launch a new model every few years which meant that brand loyalty was impossible.  I loved my Chevy Citation but it's hard to be a repeat customer or recommend a model thats out of production.  Toyota's strategy was to stay committed to the Camary model and simply keep making it better. Obviously someone that bought a Toyota Camary in 1983 and loved it can still be a repeat buyer and a brand advocate.

I see the same problem with current US snow thrower companies.  Ariens, for example, comes out with a virtually new model line-up every other year or so.  Two years ago I bought an Ariens 11528 LE...today that model doesn't exist so I can't recommend it to anyone.

Paul7 wrote:
Not exactly. You bought an Ariens Deluxe. They still make Ariens Deluxe models.

Even taking a small (and short) random snapshot in time 2002-2006 (per Wiki), the Camry had 4 different available engines, 5 different transmissions, and base trim, SE, SE Sport, LE, SLE, XLE version, a 2 door convertible version, styling updates, etc. (and none of the yearly offerings were exactly the same in any given year).

Seems the same to me.

PK

Paul7 wrote:
We buy all of our vehicles new and run them for a long time.  The Toyota strategy worked for this household.  We've been driving Toyota's for thirty years.  The last North American vehicle I bought was a pick up back in 1986.  As per usual, it was nothing but trouble.  My wife was driving a seven year old Toyota that was less trouble than my new truck.  As soon as Toyota started making bigger pick up trucks, I bought one.  I've never looked back.  I could afford to buy North American vehicles, just couldn't afford to operate them.  They've lost this customer for life.

Today's global automotive market killed all the old "Jap vs US vs Euro" car stuff. You have vehicles from traditionally japanese labels engineered, designed, and manufactured outside of Japan, and Fords with more european content and design than US. Mazda Tributes are Ford Escapes. Hondas are made in Ohio, and Chevies and Toyotas roll off the same assembly line in California. It's been decades since Volvo was a Swedish company.

You can't say one country makes better/worse cars. One period last year, the Mercury Milan beat EVERY Honda in JD Power Quality rankings. Just like our beloved blowers, you have to go by the individual model, not the brand.

I liked it better the old way.

Bill_H wrote:
Not to knock Fords or Mercury's, but the JD Powers rating is "initial quality". Fit , finish, and first blush impressions. It says nothing for long term durability. Remember when the Renault Alliance was the Motor Trend car of the year? (and the cars were sold with that exact proclamation on a banner in the window). It also made the Car and Driver's Ten Best. They were all in a salvage yard in short order.

PK

I don't drive awards or publications.  I drive vehicles.  I know what my experience has taught me.  I've learned valuable and expensive lessons in automotive ownership.  Lesson no. 1:  A vehicle that needs less repairs tends to be more readily accessible and inexpensive to operate.  Lesson no. 2:  Lower initial price of vehicle is not necessarily a bargain if that same vehicle will cost many thousands of dollars more in repairs over the long run. 

All four of our Toyotas combined over a period of thirty years of ownership were  probably 1/10th as costly in repairs than one of my North American vehicles.   In addition to that, I always had a Toyota in our own garage at night rather than in the repair shop.  It's a defining moment when you get up to go to work in the morning, go to the garage and remember your transportation is in getting fixed AGAIN but the wife's old Toyota is in the garage.  You'll need a ride to work again.  After a few of these events, one begins to connect the dots....  I connected them a long time ago.

i just bought a Toro 1128 OXE with an OHV Tec engine this fall. I am very satisfied with it. I did not buy a Honda 928 WAS due to the price and the risk of repair problems with the Hydrostatic drive over time. I'm hoping Toro's straightforward drive system will turn out to have fewer and less costly repair problems.

A local snowblower dealer told me his guess is that the people who bought Tecumseh tried to sell the small engine business separately but could not find any buyers at their asking price, so they announced they were going to terminate the business. He predicted now that the business has been thrown into distress someone will come in and buy it at a fraction of its previous value as a going concern, and revive it under the same or a different name. He thought the manufacturing facilities and equipment were just too valuable to be fully scrapped and abandoned.

Bottom line, he thought Tecumseh's line of snowblower engines would be continued in some form and there would be parts and repair service for present Tec engines in future years.

Snowmann wrote:
Two years ago the Deluxe models like my 11528 featured the remote lock/unlock lever.  The 11 hp Deluxe model today has a differential.  A pretty significant difference making brand model comparisons difficult and confusing. 

As far as the cars go the Citation, Celebrity, Lumina and Impala also all came in multiple versions.   The difference being that I can still buy a Camary. 

Snowmann wrote:
Heh, reminds me of the Consumer Reports controversy for the Plymouth Horizon "Car of The Year - Unsafe?" in the late 70's.  Then Nissan' small trucks got trashed by CR for horribly expensive repair costs in minor collisions. Nissan's answer? The "Hard Body" campaign. Never fixed anything, just worked on the image and the average consumer bought the hype.  Just FYI: JD Power actually goes for 3 years on quality: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand

Let's face it, they all suck. "Make a buck this quarter and sell another in two years" seems to be the motto. Cars, DVD players, lawnmowers, tools, phones, guns, trucks, snowblowers, whatever. The "built to last" mentality is disappearing in everything except for a small niche market that is shrinking too rapidly and getting too expensive.

I think I'm turning into a bitter old b*st*rd.

Ah Bill, I would have left this thread alone except to read it with interest until you included guns in the "not built to last" list. Some manufacturers still believe in building quality firearms. Ruger especially comes to mind...

While I work in the auto industry I have stayed out of that portion of the thread and while I shoot competively I will also stay out of that portion of the thread, but please have fun with the firearms related conversation if the powers that be don't mind.  Back to the Tecumseh portion of the thread.  What prompted this conversation is that I recently bought an Ariens with a 358 CC Snow King Tecumseh.  I returned that unit last night based on the response and information shared in this post.  While that engine started on each and every pull.  My last engine in my old snow thrower was also a Tecumseh and it is still running 21 years later.  If I can't find parts for that unit 10 years down the road that is one thing but the new unit needs to have an engine that will  have parts available not only for warranty work if need be but down the road. 

At this point something with the B&S snow max engine seems to be the best choice for me.  That L head might have never had any issues, but I just wasn't willing to gamble.

Rick

Clay wrote:
Ariens have declared publicly that they will cover the warranties for their machines.  I take this
to mean that they'll change the engine on one if they have to.

Paul

I think that they might be able to scrape up an engine over the warranty period of 3 years.  Again, my current machine is 21 years old and almost any unit will last over 10 years.  I'm not as concerned about the warranty period as I am down the road.  The other point is how can they replace the L Head when they can't even get those engines right now.  I bet, just my opinion, that if you blow an L head right now, it will have to be replaced with a Briggs.  Again, the latest machines that I saw at Home Depot from Ariens came with the Briggs snow max engines because they can't get engines.  I think that Ariens will do what ever they can to make it right and I don't doubt them as a good company.  I am concerned about the long term ride with any new unit purchased.  Just one guy's opinion.

Rick

While I never got a straight answer out of the customer service department
and they transferred me to the warranty department to ask about Tecumseh
engines and Ariens, I did send them an email.  When I sent the email, there
was a notification that said that it could take up to two days to get a
reply.  I received a return email from Ariens today, 4 days later, and this
is it:

"Dear Rick

Thank you for contacting the Ariens Company. The Tecumseh Company has
not changed in their service to the customer. Please contact Tecumseh
800-558-5402 for further information on their products.

Thank you
Tom Dvorachek
Customer Service Rep
Ariens/Gravely Co.
920 756 4352
fax 920 756 4471
tdvorachek@ariens.com "

I replied to Tom and told him that I had already tried contacting customer
service and if he actually read my email he would have seen that.  From the
original email to Ariens:

"I have concerns about long term parts availability as well as warranty
work.  I was on hold two times this morning.  Judy in Customer Service didn't want to
answer my questions and no one would pick up after over 20 minutes on
hold in the warranty department despite two calls placed."

So that's Ariens customer service, which makes me feel more confident about
investing in a John Deere with a Briggs engine instead of the Ariens with
the Tecumseh engines.

Please draw your own conclusions as this is one example with a couple of
different contacts with customer service at Ariens.  Your experiences might
very well be different with different people on different days."



Rick Ingle

Certainly not confidence inspiring now is it?

As long as sales are booming, most North American companies will seldom concern themselves with customer inquiries.  If they sell 1000 machines and one guy complains, so what?  They assume that the other 999 customers are happy.  That's the same kind of arrogance and hubris that got the Detroit Three into the predicament they're in now.  As long as they can ride on the shirt tails of their good name, despite quality and customer issues, they'll continue to do so until their sales begin to reflect customer dissatisfaction.   By then, it could be too late.

Snowmann wrote:
I'm glad someone spoke up about those JDPower "initial quality" ratings.  I"ve never been impressed by them, for the exactly the same reasons Paul outlined.  As far as "car of the year" goes, how about the Chevrolet Vega?  One of the biggest eggs GM ever laid.   

Rick,  I had a problem with the pull start on my Ariens 11528LE (Tecumseh OHV engine) immediately after I bought it.  The cord would pull halfway out then snap back with enough force to break off the bottom of the handle.  Yeah, I was left holding the other half.  Call Ariens and they said it was a Tecumseh warranty issue and to call them.  Took it to an authorized Tecumseh dealer.  It took them forever to fix it because they said they were not happy or satisfied with the answers and run-a-round they were getting from Tecumseh HQ's.  This was in 2006 when Tecumseh was in the engine business.  So if Tecumseh was that bad then....????