Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Hi all.

I am now on to a new problem that I think i created with reinstalling the drive axle. The drive carrier next to the friction plate is loose. When I am in slow(turtle) to mid forward speed. With the unit on flat level and in operating position, if I move forwards and backwards it knocks and almost sounds like a bell. I am thinking I made it loose by knocking in the roll pin in the axle. I have looked at this part and there doesn't seem to be a way of making it tighter, other then adjusting the speed rod up and down in the nut.  What can i do to make this tighter? Is it something to do with the speed adjustment rod?  There is two washers on the top and bottom of the drive carrier. They don't seem to do much in keeping it snug.

On the lighter side of things the wheels are back on and operating nicely. Everything is smooth, I also adjusted the belts today and that seems to be working great.

Cheers
Goofie Newfie

Just to help be more clear. Its part #11 in the above diagram. It slids into the weldment shift fork and has two washers on both sides of it. Its the bearing that slide back and forth next to the friction disc o matic.  Looking in the diagram it shows a spring clip and a bushing near the rake. #2 and #4. I don't recall seeing either of them, not saying its not there, but can't recall seeing them.

(I haven't seen this mechanism up close yet so if I say something stupid please correct me)

You say the drive carrier is loose.  Possible sources of looseness in the the area I can see are :

1.  Between the drive carrier and friction disk.  There are three screws holding them together
      which could be loose.  Carefull you don't overtighten these and strip the threads.

2.  I can't see how the drive carrier could be loose on the hex shaft unless there was a lot of
      wear which I doubt.

3.  The hex shaft itself is held in place at one end by bearing flange #5 and bearing #17.  The
      bearing flange is held in place by three screws which could be loose or the bearing could
     be shot.

4.  What happens at the other end of the shaft is not shown on the diagram so I'll guess that
      it's the same and there's a bearing and a bearing flange which could be loose.

If you grab the friction disk (the disk with the rubber around it) and try to move it you should see
where any looseness comes from.

If you don't have a good connection between the friction disk and the drive plate #19 the latter
could be the problem.  I'll wait to hear from you on the above before going further.

I don't understand how your driving the split pin on the axle could have affected things.

Paul

pvrp wrote:

Hi Paul;

The diagram really doesn't do it any justice. If i get the time tomorrow, maybe I will try to get a pic of it. I am thinking i may have to take this section apart and see how it works. But I really don't understand it by looking at it. Doesn't appear to be anything holding it in there. I will try and explain part #11 a little better from which I remember. This happen towards a long day and I couldn't stand to tackle it anymore, so I didn't do a lot of probing. took me awhile to find it as it would only when in operating position and not service position. I actually thought a cable was loose and hitting the frame or something.  When i found the problem it made sense as to why that happen.  In service postion #11 is sitting on its ends in the speed fork.  When in operating position it is falling towards the ground with no support from the fork, the only thing that keeps it from falling is that its over the shaft.  The part that is loose doesn't actually screw on the the friction disc as the diagram shows. Its actually a bearing with two round pieces attached top and bottom to slide into the fork. So there is a triangle type piece of metal with a bigger shaft attached that goes over the chain rod. This makes that rod a circle, the bearing and holder that is loose in the fork doesn't spin with the friction disc, its a bearing.  So from what i can tell without taking it apart, is that part 11 is actually two parts. The mount plate and small shaft that screws to the friction plate and the bearing that goes over that shaft and sits into the fork that moves the friction disc back and forth.


#2. I don't believe it to be the drive carrier, should be another part listed there I think, or maybe not. To me is looks like a bearing that is over the drive carrier, its mounted into the speed selection fork. with that said, there is no wear.. The shaft was perfectly fine before. Something is after coming loose somehow, can't see what it is.


#3 + 4  I don't think its either of these either, but I will check for you to make sure.

If i grab the friction disc, it doesn't really affect this part much. Its spins over the shaft and with disc, like a bearing. It doesn't mount to it.

I don't understand how driving that pin it could make that happen either.  Could it have anything to do with the setting on the speed shaft outside, the point where you screw the rod into and connect to the speed selector on the dash? Could that cause that bearing to be loose?  The parts in that picture that have me puzzled right now are #2 and #4.  I know that one #4 is present. Its actually out side the box and its more of a hairpin that keeps the speed shaft from sliding to far into the box. But why one would be needed in the fork, I am unsure at this point. And #2 the bushing, I don't recall seeing that. But if listed it must be, this has never been taking apart before. Maybe its in with the carrier plate and sliding under it on top of the rod. It looks really small in the picture and without looking up the part # it almost looks like a screw or something.


Thanks to all that help, greatly appreciate trying to get me past fustration :)

Cheers
Goofie Newfie.

Ok, I can see that the Drive Disc Carrier #11 is in two pieces that can move relative to each other.  One part
is screwed to the Friction Disc #12 and has a shaft attached to it that has a hex hole in it so it connects the
Friction Disc to the hex shaft while letting the Disc slide on the hex shaft.  The other part is the thing with the
two round prongs that engage the Shift Fork.  Between the two parts you've got the bearing so that the Friction
Disc and hex shaft can rotate while the other part stays put in the fork.

For the entire Carrier #11 to work properly the two parts had better be held together by some means that
lets the inner part rotate while preventing it from sliding away from the outer part.

After re-reading what you wrote I believe I've just repeated what you said yourself, now that I've got an
understanding of what you were talking about :-)

If the two parts of #11 are kept together I'd say it's working properly.

The bell sound could be the drive plate (the disc part of #19).  On my (old) machine it's aluminum and can
ring if you hit it with something.

I suggest you put the machine in service position and turn the wheels (together so the differential doesn't
do its thing) and see if there isn't something that, while rotating, isn't hitting something else.   I have no idea
how close the various parts are to each other but for instance in my machine the outside of the differential
is very close to some sheetmetal and can rub on it if its axle is loose in any way.

When moving under power the frequency of the knocking can tell you if the problem is on the wheel axle or
one of the other shafts.

Is the split pin you reinstalled in far enough that it isn't hitting something as the axle rotates ?

#2 bushing should be on the round prong sticking out of the carrier and acts as a bearing between the fork
and the prong.  I would have thought that there'd be another one on the other side of the carrier.  I take it the
fork engages both prongs on the carrier ?  Why woudn't the back side also have a bushing ?

I can't tell where the second #4 spring clip (the one near #2) goes and there's another one floating in mid air
by the drive plate.

Paul

Hi Paul.

Yes, what you said is correct, I believe you got it :) The problem tho is most definitely coming from this parts. I have had the machine in service position and it makes no noise at all. The problem only comes when in operating position and in low speed range. This is because the two circles on the bearing are falling downward due to there being nothing really keeping it in place. The shift forks and almost perfectly vertical in low forward and reverse. So the carrier bearing is almost falling out of the fork, which causes the bell sound when rocking the unit back and forth. I have taken some photos


the link to the image is
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo68/AriensSnowThrowUser/Ariens_1130DLE-921003-DriveCarrier-.jpg

And I also took a short video which is here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pz72Z8IC6I

This should help greatly in seeing and hearing what I am experiencing. 

Forgot to mention. Parts 2 and 4 that were getting me messed up are positioned wrong on the diagram.  I recreated the diagram and put them where they are supposed to be and also added one that was missing. There is no bushing on the bearing in the fork. The bushing is on the shift rod were it enters the box and exits the box on the other side. There are two hairpins to keep the rod from moving in and out and falling out.



Cheers
Goofie Newfie

I'm on my way out the door until Sunday midday.  Your info is now very clear, thanks for the pictures.
It's good for me to learn how my next snowblower will look like inside (delivery has been postponed
till next week or the one after, don't know why).

Doesn't the fork itself keep the carrier (the half with the prongs) from rotating ?  I can't see that it
can get out of the fork.

I'll get back to you on Sunday.

Paul

Have a good weekend paul, when you get back watch the youtube video link i posted, I am sure it will make it much clearer as to the problem

cheers
Goofie Newfie

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I must say a video is worth a few thousand more.  This is the
first time I've seen a youtube video used to provide info in a discussion in an internet forum.  Impressive.

The carrier's movement looks perfectly normal to me.  There has to be a bit of looseness so things don't
bind.  I'd expect that the slack would be taken up one way or another when the traction is engaged.

Have you had a chance to look at what the other turning parts are doing when you turn both wheels at the
same time ?  Also try when you turn only one wheel at a time and the differential makes the other wheel turn
in the opposite direction just to see if the differential is making any noise on its own (you have the new
limited slip differential so I'm not entirely sure how it behaves).

Is that white stuff coating everything salt  ?  If so, no wonder you have rust problems.  I think you may live
near the ocean, but with the quantity of salt they spread on my street I wouldn't have expected that to make
any difference.  But I don't get salt on the inside.   There is a cover on the bottom of your machine I take it,
so is the salt just in the air ?

Paul

pvrp wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. I don't see anything abnormal...?

Hope you had a great weekend Paul.  I can't see it being quite normal as it didn't make that sound before. This is for sure where the sound is coming from. The Video was taken on a flat and not service posistion. I tilted the snowblower a little and stuck the camera up under it with a light so that you can see better. I am wondering now if I could actually have put in completely flat and rocked the machine back and forth and see if you would have seen what it was doing. The grey stuff is where all the rust was, I knew that would come up in discussion :) . Everything grey was sanded down a little and painted with a rust primer and paint. Hopefully to ward off future rust. Yes I live near the ocean, not right next to it tho. Probably about 20km.  Not many places in Newfoundland that are not near salt water.

I have not been able to reproduce what the differential does. When it was completely off the axle or just spinning the wheels in service postion. If I turn the tires, both turn.  But when I put in down and move it around it works. So maybe it needs more torque then I can give it with my hands spinning the wheels.

I don't suspect the movement of this part will create any problems just doesn't sound right when moving it back and forth. I can live with that tho.  At one point I was thinking of removing all these parts and trying to put one more thin washer under one of the existing to take up the slack a little. But if it needs slack, I will leave it.

Thanks Paul and snowman for having a look at it for me.

Cheers
Goofie Newfie

How does the machine behave in each of its forward and reverse speeds ?

Have you done the "Traction drive clutch adjustment" to make sure you have
sufficient contact between the friction wheel and the drive plate ?

The rubber on the friction wheel is clean and smooth ?

Paul

The machine is working great and adjustment done.  Just when I go to pull this machine back instead of using reverse it will make the bell sound.  because the carrier bearing is swinging back and forth depending on weather I pull forward or backwards. It swings on the carrier shaft and the bearing round arms that hold/slide are hitting the fork which causes the washer and the bearing to ring like a bell. Like I said, it only happens in slow forward and reverse. Its when the friction wheel is near the center of the friction plate. This cause the carrier bearing in the fork to become loose as the shift fork channels are  completely straight vertical. Where as when the friction wheel or speed is in the fastest forward or reverse. The shift fork channels are on a diagonal which tightens up the carrier bearing arms.  The channels on the fork are cut in it on a diagonal so I am thinking at any point it shouldn't be completely straight vertical, should always be on a slight angle to keep the bearing from falling forward and to stop the rocking motion. But not the case on this machine.

Its fixed.. Took the friction wheel and carrier out.  Put extra washer on the carrier bearing arms. Put it back in, wa la.. She is good to go. Was to much slack between the washers and the shift fork.

Thanks to all

Cheers
Goofie Newfie.