Abby’s Guide > Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) > Discussions > Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions |
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Denny
Joined: Dec 12, 2007
Points: 7
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Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Original Message Dec 12, 2007 8:14 pm |
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I turned the key on and have no spark from the plug or even the plug wire when turning over the engine How do I know if it is the coil magneto or the xstar module magneto? It is a model 38180 |
broncman
Joined: Jan 14, 2012
Points: 17
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #55 Jan 28, 2012 5:33 pm |
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Hi Guys;
Well, here is where I am at now. I went to the auto parts store and picked up 1 spark plug wire with a boot at the end. When I got home, I learned that the inner part of this wire was like a fiber, not actual wire. Since you cant solder fiber, I ordered and received a spark plug wire which as an actual wire core.
I took one of the coils and soldered the wire to the coil and epoxied it all in. I reinstalled the coil and got no spark...unless I actually held the spark plug center terminal to the engine block...what the $%^)_#&^$%??? Maybe the copper wire provided too much resistance. I then took the remaining coil and pushed the fiber center plug wire onto the pin of the other coil and epoxied her in place. I got good spark this time, but like before, it is an intermittent spark.
Since two of the three magnets on the flywheel are very weak, I guess I will proceed with trying to locate a different flywheel. An ebay site called mowandsnow has many used parts including engines for the CCR2000. I will check if they have a flywheel. I would think that if the manufacturer put three magnets on a flywheel, they are there for a reason and all three should have roughly the same magnetism.
This summer I just rebuilt a 1978 Toro Snowmaster snowthrower. It is just like the S200 only the model before. I believe it has the same AH520 engine as the S200. The thing was running like a dream after the rebuild. Now it wont start. At least it is throwing a spark though. YIPEE. And I thought all I would have to do this winter was work, take care of the house, continue on my Heald Super Bronc project, help the wife, shuttle the kids...
Its gotta be the coil on the CCR 2000 though, 'eh?
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trouts2
Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #56 Jan 29, 2012 9:26 am |
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Holding the plug against the block is not a great or reliable test. It’s OK for a go no go indication of spark. The machine is vibrating and holding the plug at a consistent distance too hard. You have spark. It’s intermittent on two coils which you have tested without sparkplug wires and both test OK. You replaced the sparkplug wire on both and get the same results, an intermittent spark by I think holding the plug to the engine. If that’s the case I would not consider the spark to be intermittent yet. I would hook up a spark tester, run the electric start and if it was intermittent then I would consider spark to be intermittent. I would grab the wire, tester and end connections to feel for a tingle indicating a leak. BTW: Briggs has a spark tester that pretty good for about $15. It’s flimsy, has electrodes enclosed in a window so you can put a black cloth in back and see the spark very well. A cheaper alternative is two types of testers available from Harbor Freight from $1.50 - $4.00 depending on their being on sale and they usually are. They have a post end which fits into the plug wire boot and the other a boot for the plug. There’s an enclosed light of some sort inside a plastic case which is pretty bright when it gets triggered. If you ran the electric start with one of these types of testers and got intermittent then it would be reliable. BUT,,,, it would not tell you the cause. One intermittent coil is rare, two is a stretch to believe that both are bad so I would be thinking the cause someplace else. You’ve sanded and cleaned all grounds and connections. Put on dielectric grease and later cleaned that off. So the guess is those are all OK. The magnets are suspect. Briggs has the criteria of the magnets being able to hold a #10 flat head screwdriver to a magnet. Another test is to just pass a screwdriver by the magnets and if the screwdriver deflects the magnets are considered good. I don’t have a lot of experience with flywheel magnets but the usual problems are they loose polarity or the glue gives and they fall off. The machine ran before and gets intermittent spark so I would not suspect the magnets unless you have dropped the flywheel from a significant height or touched your coil wires to a magnet when it was firing. Those things probably did not happens so chances are very good the magnets are ok. What could be wrong at this point? The pieces: You have suspected but unproven intermittent spark. The coil bodies are ok. The magnets are ok. The installed wires are still not making good contact causing the intermittent. Hard to believe. You’ve gone through 4 plug wires on two coils with the same results. So it’s probably not a bad connect at the coil body or the plug hood. The plug wires are OK. The on/off switch is not in play so not a factor. The old and new ignition modules give the same results. They are probably both OK. Left, is the fit of the gap. At least for me it’s a hassle to get a gap right. It takes me a long time and a lot of fussing around to get right, but it’s usually go no go never intermittent. I don’t think you have reinstalled either coil for a while. Clean the magnets and coil legs and get the gap perfect. I would get a Harbor Freight tester, install everything and see what you get. If it were me and I had that machine and getting the same results you have been getting I would think that I had missed something and not seeing the obvious. Continuing to work on problems like this usually don’t pan out so I put them aside and wait sometimes a month or two and start from scratch because what I did before was unreliable.
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niper99
Location: London Ont
Joined: Dec 2, 2007
Points: 354
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #57 Jan 29, 2012 3:33 pm |
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Holding the plug against the block is not a great or reliable test. It’s OK for a go no go indication of spark. The machine is vibrating and holding the plug at a consistent distance too hard. You have spark. It’s intermittent on two coils which you have tested without sparkplug wires and both test OK. You replaced the sparkplug wire on both and get the same results, an intermittent spark by I think holding the plug to the engine. If that’s the case I would not consider the spark to be intermittent yet. I would hook up a spark tester, run the electric start and if it was intermittent then I would consider spark to be intermittent. I would grab the wire, tester and end connections to feel for a tingle indicating a leak. BTW: Briggs has a spark tester that pretty good for about $15. It’s flimsy, has electrodes enclosed in a window so you can put a black cloth in back and see the spark very well. A cheaper alternative is two types of testers available from Harbor Freight from $1.50 - $4.00 depending on their being on sale and they usually are. They have a post end which fits into the plug wire boot and the other a boot for the plug. There’s an enclosed light of some sort inside a plastic case which is pretty bright when it gets triggered. If you ran the electric start with one of these types of testers and got intermittent then it would be reliable. BUT,,,, it would not tell you the cause. One intermittent coil is rare, two is a stretch to believe that both are bad so I would be thinking the cause someplace else. You’ve sanded and cleaned all grounds and connections. Put on dielectric grease and later cleaned that off. So the guess is those are all OK. The magnets are suspect. Briggs has the criteria of the magnets being able to hold a #10 flat head screwdriver to a magnet. Another test is to just pass a screwdriver by the magnets and if the screwdriver deflects the magnets are considered good. I don’t have a lot of experience with flywheel magnets but the usual problems are they loose polarity or the glue gives and they fall off. The machine ran before and gets intermittent spark so I would not suspect the magnets unless you have dropped the flywheel from a significant height or touched your coil wires to a magnet when it was firing. Those things probably did not happens so chances are very good the magnets are ok. What could be wrong at this point? The pieces: You have suspected but unproven intermittent spark. The coil bodies are ok. The magnets are ok. The installed wires are still not making good contact causing the intermittent. Hard to believe. You’ve gone through 4 plug wires on two coils with the same results. So it’s probably not a bad connect at the coil body or the plug hood. The plug wires are OK. The on/off switch is not in play so not a factor. The old and new ignition modules give the same results. They are probably both OK. Left, is the fit of the gap. At least for me it’s a hassle to get a gap right. It takes me a long time and a lot of fussing around to get right, but it’s usually go no go never intermittent. I don’t think you have reinstalled either coil for a while. Clean the magnets and coil legs and get the gap perfect. I would get a Harbor Freight tester, install everything and see what you get. If it were me and I had that machine and getting the same results you have been getting I would think that I had missed something and not seeing the obvious. Continuing to work on problems like this usually don’t pan out so I put them aside and wait sometimes a month or two and start from scratch because what I did before was unreliable.
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niper99
Location: London Ont
Joined: Dec 2, 2007
Points: 354
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #58 Jan 29, 2012 3:37 pm |
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Holding the plug against the block is not a great or reliable test. It’s OK for a go no go indication of spark. The machine is vibrating and holding the plug at a consistent distance too hard. You have spark. It’s intermittent on two coils which you have tested without sparkplug wires and both test OK. You replaced the sparkplug wire on both and get the same results, an intermittent spark by I think holding the plug to the engine. If that’s the case I would not consider the spark to be intermittent yet. I would hook up a spark tester, run the electric start and if it was intermittent then I would consider spark to be intermittent. I would grab the wire, tester and end connections to feel for a tingle indicating a leak. BTW: Briggs has a spark tester that pretty good for about $15. It’s flimsy, has electrodes enclosed in a window so you can put a black cloth in back and see the spark very well. A cheaper alternative is two types of testers available from Harbor Freight from $1.50 - $4.00 depending on their being on sale and they usually are. They have a post end which fits into the plug wire boot and the other a boot for the plug. There’s an enclosed light of some sort inside a plastic case which is pretty bright when it gets triggered. If you ran the electric start with one of these types of testers and got intermittent then it would be reliable. BUT,,,, it would not tell you the cause. One intermittent coil is rare, two is a stretch to believe that both are bad so I would be thinking the cause someplace else. You’ve sanded and cleaned all grounds and connections. Put on dielectric grease and later cleaned that off. So the guess is those are all OK. The magnets are suspect. Briggs has the criteria of the magnets being able to hold a #10 flat head screwdriver to a magnet. Another test is to just pass a screwdriver by the magnets and if the screwdriver deflects the magnets are considered good. I don’t have a lot of experience with flywheel magnets but the usual problems are they loose polarity or the glue gives and they fall off. The machine ran before and gets intermittent spark so I would not suspect the magnets unless you have dropped the flywheel from a significant height or touched your coil wires to a magnet when it was firing. Those things probably did not happens so chances are very good the magnets are ok. What could be wrong at this point? The pieces: You have suspected but unproven intermittent spark. The coil bodies are ok. The magnets are ok. The installed wires are still not making good contact causing the intermittent. Hard to believe. You’ve gone through 4 plug wires on two coils with the same results. So it’s probably not a bad connect at the coil body or the plug hood. The plug wires are OK. The on/off switch is not in play so not a factor. The old and new ignition modules give the same results. They are probably both OK. Left, is the fit of the gap. At least for me it’s a hassle to get a gap right. It takes me a long time and a lot of fussing around to get right, but it’s usually go no go never intermittent. I don’t think you have reinstalled either coil for a while. Clean the magnets and coil legs and get the gap perfect. I would get a Harbor Freight tester, install everything and see what you get. If it were me and I had that machine and getting the same results you have been getting I would think that I had missed something and not seeing the obvious. Continuing to work on problems like this usually don’t pan out so I put them aside and wait sometimes a month or two and start from scratch because what I did before was unreliable. very good advice trouts!!! maybe its a fuel issuse??
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RedOctobyr
Location: Lowell area, MA
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
Points: 282
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #60 Jan 29, 2012 5:57 pm |
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Yeah, use mixed gas, like borat said. When I was initially troubleshooting my SS with a plugged carb, I was using starting fluid and carb cleaner. Neither was a good idea, since they don't provide lubrication (even worse, the carb cleaner tries to flush off any residual oil). What I should have been using was mixed gas, either poured in, or I've considered putting some in a spray bottle. The risk I see with a spray bottle would be getting gas mist airborne. One spark and you could potentially have it go BANG in your face. I did change to using mixed gas poured into the carb, but I should have used that right from the start  Given everything you've been through with the ignition, I kind of hope for your sake that it *is* a fuel issue, so you can get this resolved. Personally, unless you can get a flywheel fairly cheaply, I don't know that I would go as far as you have, chasing the problem. I admire your persistence, good luck!  |
trouts2
Location: Marlboro MA
Joined: Dec 8, 2007
Points: 1328
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #61 Jan 30, 2012 9:29 am |
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Niper99,
It’s sure looking like that. It could easily be that he’s fixed one problem and unmasked another which may have been created when he cleaned the carb. From above: I located and bought a used coil from a local shop for $55 . Yippie...I got spark. I then put it all back together. (I had also cleaned the carb and replaced several parts there in). She started on the first pull! It ran excellent for 30 seconds and then quit. No more spark. From this point on or shortly after the electrical problem could have been fixed but dregs remained blocking the main jet. His primer seems to be fine and it starts and runs reliably. He could put it back together, fire it up and keep punching the primer. I bet it will run. On the remote possibility it doesn’t then I’d get a spark tester and put it in line and run again. The tester should still flicker after the engine dies but still rotating. If not then he really does have intermittent spark.
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broncman
Joined: Jan 14, 2012
Points: 17
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #62 Jan 30, 2012 1:18 pm |
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Gentlemen,
Stopped by a local repair shop this morning (where I purchased the used coil). He is going to see if he has a used flywheel I can try which has 3 strong magnets on it. One would think that if 3 magnets are installed, they all should have a strong "pull" to them...not just one of the three.
I must buy a briggs spark tester though! What I am seeing is this. When I hold the spark plug to the engine block, I will engage the electric starter for say 5-8 seconds. During this time, I will see a good spark but then it stops sparking after a second or two. Subsequent attempts will simply result in a "wimpy" spark or no spark at all.
Here is an interesting link regarding magnets on flywheels which I found on a search:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60985
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RedOctobyr
Location: Lowell area, MA
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
Points: 282
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Re: Toro CCR 2000, no spark from plug wire
Reply #63 Jan 30, 2012 1:56 pm |
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Hmmm, that was an interesting read. FWIW, you can get neodymium (rare earth) magnets off eBay. I also found some at the hardware store. Those are likely the type used in hard drives, referred to in that link. Just as another option, if you don't have a hard drive you can disassemble. I can't imagine that the magnets in drives can be very large, either. The heads are very small, and need to be able to move very quickly. So I'd expect you could substitute another source for powerful magnets.
It sure sounds worth a shot. You have tried closing the plug gap way down, right? To, say, 0.010" or so? Might show whether or not you can still maintain a spark that way. Is it possible that, while cranking, the plug starts to move around and loses good contact with the block, hence losing the visible spark? Could you try something like grounding a bare-ended wire under an engine bolt, then securely attaching the other bare end to the threads of the plug, and see what you observe then?
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