Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Let's try this again.
There is a new buzzword that is currently making the rounds on internet forums, OPE dealerships, (and even some OPE manufacturers have let it slip from thier lips)...."Chinese Clones".
What are these "clones"?..... They are "reversed engineered" copys of equipment that have been proven products on the world market and sell for a fraction of what the originals sell for.

Has anyone had any experience with these products?

I ask because I got service bulletin from a well known engine manufacturer that basically said: "If we find that you are selling any of these "clones" in your stores....or that you take them in for service....or that you have anything too do with them whatsoever....then you shall no longer be a dealer for us."

I mean: "EGADS!" That puts me between a rock and a hard place.
Should I take these engines and equipment in for service and risk the ire of our largest supplier?
Or go with consumer demand for lower prices?
TIA....'lint.

Intellectual property protection is one reason why  President Bush is in China right now.

Once the Chinese go beyond copying existing designs or manufacturing new designs provided them, they will have a compelling desire to enforce intellectual property rights.

When an American business sells a $10 product made in China, $6 or more goes to Americans and $4 or less goes to the manufacturer - sometimes as little as $1. Better to face the competition now and improve to beat it  than become France.

There was an article on NPR about auto parts supplies. They visited a plant in China and one in the US. Basically the American worker is as productive as 6-10 of the Chinese workers. The Chinese plant owner expressed admiration for the American manufacturers, and was incredulous that they could ever compete.

American vs. Chinese Manufacturing: Which Is Stronger?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991996

Good question on what to do with them.

But with the emminent death of Tecumseh, I'm sure there will be a flood of clones.

I do have experience with them. So far just with a couple from the same brand. They do seem to fare fairly well, in my experience.

Hi Guys-

Garandman wrote:The Chinese plant owner expressed admiration for the American manufacturers, and was incredulous that they could ever compete.

FALSE MODESTY!!!!!!

1)I have a friend with a small machine shop that does precision work .His busness card says CNC Machining and Assembly's.His work is absolutely meticulous. The Chinese have just about put him out of business.

He gets plenty of prototype work which is a pain in the a$$ . Once the design is set the production goes to China. According to him the Chinese work is as good as the customer is willing to pay for. The money of course is in the production work.

2)I am an avid saltwater surf fisherman. We use a high end reel that costs depending on size between $500 and $700 .The New England based manufacturer was bought out by an Oklahoma  company and moved to Tulsa ostensibly because of the large Aero Space machining facilities available.. Within a year the company had built their own machine shop in China with "same time" closed circuit TV supervision of the factory floor.The new reels are indistinguishable from their American made predicessors. 

Whether it's sneakers or machine parts or ope engines we can't compete with labor that is willing to work for low wages.Our policy of no or low tarriffs is killing us.

Marc

Hi Guys-

THIS BOARD NEEDS AN EDIT BUTTON-

My point is that if the customer wants to pay for it the Chinese products are as good as anybody's. Because their labor is so cheap their price for high quality is drasticly  less.

Sorry for the rant,

Marc

On topic, but a bit off discussion.  

Want an inside look at China, then keep your eyes out for a 4 part TV mini-series documentary called China Rises.   www.cbc.ca/chinarises

It is an unbelievable production.   You think those Wal Mart documentarys are damming, you ain't seen nothing.   The level of pollution, corruption, etc, etc. that China simply does not care about is staggering.    A great watch. 

Hay, jeremyprice,

    What's the detail on your engine?  Is it a Zhongshan?  How will you deal with parts?  I have seen ads for some snowblowers guaranting parts from stock in the US. 

    I've owned three Chinese motorcycles and they were fantastic (all eventually stolen) but I put many miles on each of them over very rough road conditions.  I would have great confidence in any engine made by their better makers.  There are lots of makers but what ends up in the US is probably ok.  I only name I recognize that's sold here is Zhongshan and even they are not top of the line in China. 

   I"ve got a 1974 724 Toro in excellent shape that's now blowing lots of oil out of the breather tube.  It burrows into a pile better than my 1997 Toro 824XL.  Getting a replacement engine for 100 would be a tempting prospect.

trouts

  

buttlint,  in regards to the first post about the clones and selling, working  on them.  we are an authorized briggs, tecumseh,kohler,kawasaki, robin subaru  sales and service dealer.     all my sales reps said they CAN NOT stop us from working on these engines,  if we can get parts for them it money in our pocket.   as far as selling them,  we as a dealership would not do this to our customers.  these may be reliable engines but as far as i can do here in minnesota i cant find parts to repair.  when my customer comes in for a part he/ she wants it now.  my job is to get this part a.s.a.p.  this is called customer service..... this is my job.  if i want repeat customers i need to do this.  

Blue Max Chinese engine made by Jiangdong.  It's "modeled" after the Honda GX200 but I'm not sure if it's a full clone.  There's an interesting piece below from a go-kart club which races these engines. 

Some comments found online at:
http://www.thunderhill-speedway.com/Blue%20OHV%20engine%20rules.html

In an effort to keep Kart Racing fun and affordable, Thunder Hill Speedway is introducing the use of a very affordable and reliable engine. This engine is a 6.5 horsepower copy of a Honda engine. Other tracks across the nation have been using this engine for over a year with great results in reliability, performance and very competitive racing. It is working the best to leave the engine as Box Stock as possible. At Thunder Hill Speedway we will have an adult Flat Kart class just for these engines and we will also allow this engine to be used in our Novice class and Junior Wing/Box Stock Wing Class as per the rules below. These engines are available right now at Harbor Freight Stores for only $159!!! Sometimes on sale for only $129!!!(Example: Harbor Freight in Eau Claire, WI)

There are several sellers of these engines on EBay for 109 to 149 with shipping ranging from about $25-50.  I've written to several of the sellers to ask if there are dealers for warranty work and parts around the Boston area.  One of the EBay sellers lists that for warranty or parts you have to go back to the distributor.  But possibly there are enough matching GX200 parts for standard use replacements. ??

SPECIFICATIONS
 
Starting: Recoil Pull Start
Fuel Consumption: .51 GPH
General Use Engine Oil: SAE 10W-30 API SJ or SL
Cooling System: Forced Air
PTO Shaft Rotation: Counterclockwise
Ignition System: Transistorized Magneto
Fuel Tank Capacity: .95 Gal
Displacement: 12 Cu-In
Engine Type: Single Cycle, 4 Stroke, OHV
Dimensions: 12"L x 14.3"W x 13.2"H
Crankshaft PTO: 2-7/16" x 3/4 Diameter Tapped 5/16 x 24 UNF
HP Rating: 6.4 HP @ 3600 RPM
Controls: Throttle/Fuel/Choke/On-Off
Engine Oil Capacity: .63Qt
Spark Plug: BP6ES
Idle Speed: 1400 RPM (+200/-150)
Fuel: 86 Octane or Higher Unleaded
Max Torque: 9.76 Ft/Lbs @ 2500 RPM
Shipping Weight: 37 lbs.
HDC Item: 03163

* HORIZONTAL SHAFT
(2-1/2" long x 3/4" diameter with 3/16 inch keyway & threaded end)

* SHAFT ROTATION (COUNTERCLOCKWISE)

* CONTROLS ( THROTTLE / CHOKE / ON-OFF)

* APPROX MOTOR SIZE (L 12.3 x W 14.8 x H 13.2)

* MOUNTING PLATE
( Approx size 7" x 4" total size see pics)
( holes approx 6.25 long way and 3.25 short way apart)

Harbor Freight sells these over the counter for 129.

The manual for the 6.5:
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/96000-96999/96549.pdf

After a little more checking several race tracks have setup racing classes for these engines.

Harbor Freight sells the engine labeled Central Machinery engines and the manual on their web page says Central Machinery but the motor is made by Jiangdong manf in China. There seems to be a blizzard of Chinese companies that have partnered with Honda for the rights. But, given how Chinese companies sometimes work one umbrella company could have the rights and have many seemingly assocciated companies making the engine that are really the same company.

Harbor stocks Jiangdong made 11hp's for 269 and a 13 for 299. Parts can be gotten through Harbor, direct, or from several other sources via mail. I forgot to ask Harbor if they had on-hand stock.

Some places are selling the 6.5 for 109 and if you lived close to them could pick one up to avoid shipping. One poster picked one up on sale for 99 but I have not found one that low yet.

The 11hp seems like it would be a great candidate for an old Toro 724 frame.
trouts