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Message started by doubletwins on 07/16/07 at 12:14pm

Title: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by doubletwins on 07/16/07 at 12:14pm

Does anyone have a link to the "never clogs, never loses suction" lawsuit? I searched Google, but couldn't find the info I was looking for. TIA!

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by D.E.P. on 07/16/07 at 12:39pm

Hello,

There is no lawsuit…

This is only hopeful speculation on the part of one of the forum members –

The A.S.A. that they are referring to is a British agency, not a US agency, and has no authority in the United States – here is there website: http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/

You will also find the ruling everyone is referring to, and in my opinion a lot of what is being written is false information – here is the ruling link: http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42594.htm

Dyson did not remove the “no loss of suction” from their US website, they just modified it and gave better explanations of the technologies… The Slogan can still be found on many places on the US website as well as the website for the UK…

Please read everything for your self and draw your own conclusions...

Dan

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/16/07 at 1:05pm

Here's what's written on the matter on the Forum from another thread.

The post of inquiry:

old-timer wrote:

How about the consumers that bought into the never clogs,never looses suction [false advertising B.S.]. Can they get their money back? after being lied to by Dyson,and maybe on purpose...........

These con men have made it very difficult for the legit dealers that really know the truth...........

O.T.

The posts in reply to the above:

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Jimmy P/OT:

Excellent question Pro. Yes, they can in a class action lawsuit against dyson and the dyson retailers where they purchased their dysons. We're not talking about "sales puffing" now. The infamous dyson claim to shame is a blatant untruth used to sell a product at a price way higher than warranted. Along with the corrollary false claim that dysons cost "zero" dollars to use and operate, dyson knowingly perpetrated untrue product claims to foster its own profits for over 5 years at the expense of unknowing consumers.

The ASA ruling against dyson and dyson's own actions in scrubbing it's Web site of the infamous claim to shame: "Never clogs; never loses suction" almost guarantees IMHO an out of court settlement by dyson with all the litigants. Dyson has been very hush hush about the ASA ruling and doesn't want the negative press and publicity. Which you know will follow.

Ironic that the man and company who started and expanded his dyson business with funds from law suits against 2 other vacuum makers, now is on the receiving end and will have to pay.

Carmine D.

And likewise a follow up post to clarify the matter further:

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Dyson is taking the possibility of a class action suit by past buyers very serious. Why? For 2 reasons. If the public news about the lawsuit doesn't bankrupt dyson, the payout settlement surely will. You don't knowingly lie about a $500 plus retail product and get off with a handslap from the ASA. People are very unforgiving when they get "duped" and spend their money based on false and misleading product claims. I suspect at least one, maybe more of the over 30 complainants against dyson is (are) lawyers. And have started the legal proceedings in motion.

Kudos to Jimmy the Pro who appended the dyson claim to shame as follows so as to be truthful: "Never clogs....Never loses suction" and Jimmy added.......for a little while.

Looks like Kenneth J. will get his justice after all.

Carmine D.

Note too that major USA only retailers selling dysons like KOHL's and LOWE's have 'scrubbed' the 5 year old dyson claims completely from their dyson ads. You no longer see; "NEVER CLOGS and NEVER LOSES SUCTION" with dyson vacuums. Other USA retailers, with and without worldwide presence, will soon follow and have to drop the claims just as dyson did with its USA Web Site. Why? To avoid liability for a lawsuit(s) if they continue to make the claims, knowing that an authoritative body, albeit in the UK, established and sanctioned to rule on these matters, has declared the dyson claims "false" and "misleading" and unusable.

Will a class action lawsuit against dyson follow? Ask yourself this question: Are there bases for a lawsuit?

IMHO, the answer is most definitely. Why? A dyson consumer(s) needs to show 2 things to prevail:

(1) He/she (they) bought the dyson vacuum(s) by relying on the "false" claims and were willing to pay the higher prices for the dyson vacuums because the dyson claims made the product unique from all others on the market.

(2) Dyson's intent with the "false" claims was to "mislead" and "deceive" buyers in order to sell its vacuums. This is harder to prove but not impossible. Why? Buyers need to show that dyson was aware of the fact that its vacuum filters clog and lose suction. We know dyson knows these facts and knew these facts when the claims were made. Why? Because the dyson User's Manual tells users that the filters have to be cleaned. And there are industry experts (like Jimmy the Pro above) who know this and said so publicly including on this Forum for many years. Do dyson employees read this Forum? We know the answer is "yes" because there is at least one poster here (and more likely more who don't say) who says he is a dyson employee: Matt mmc who has been conspicuously absent from any discussion of these matters. He is a dyson account rep, or at least was. If dyson employees are aware of the untrue claims, then dyson is aware.

Let's summarize: We have a "hidden disclosure" (in the dyson User Manual) of a material "false" claim made for one purpose: To sell dyson vacuums by making them unique. How? By knowingly using product claims declared to be "false" and "misleading."

You be the judge and jury of the facts and circumstances. Especially if you bought the $400 plus dyson product over the $100 vacuum product because you relied on the false claims. As one dyson Forum fawner here use to say: Sounds like an imminent lawsuit all tied up in a big red bow just waiting to be served. Except this time its against dyson.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/16/07 at 3:00pm

So I was a little surprised when the resident anti dyson jihadist stated that dyson no longer claims no loss of suction on it's US webpage. Of course being the skeptical type I had to see for myself. Imagine my non-surprise when I saw claims about dyson not losing suction still in many places of the website. I even saw added to the front page and many other pages reference to the specific International test used as below.

"For all upright and canister vacuums, Dyson proves no loss of suction using the IEC 60312 CI 2.9 test standard."
"For all handheld vacuums, Dyson proves no loss of suction using a test method based on IEC 60312 CI 2.9 standard."

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/16/07 at 3:08pm

My good friend JimB:

First, I'm Catholic not Muslim. ;)

Second: If you read my posts I write:

"NEVER CLOGS, NEVER LOSES SUCTION."

The poster got it right:

doubletwins wrote:

Does anyone have a link to the "never clogs, never loses suction" lawsuit? I searched Google, but couldn't find the info I was looking for. TIA!

And so did Jimmy the Pro:

old-timer wrote:

Did you forget already: "NEVER CLOGS, NEVER LOSES SUCTION": The now infamous dyson mantra for the last 5 years but no more thanks to the ASA and HOOVER Candy, Oreck and 36 dyson litigants. I mean complainants. Not on the dyson USA Web site anymore. Some alphabet soup and numbers test. What that heck is that all about? Dyson consumers never saw these test citations before when they bought their dyson vacuums relying on false and misleading claims: NEVER CLOGS, NEVER LOSES SUCTION. Or was this another hidden disclosure by dyson?

Boo, hiss. Why? The tests are not performed and conducted by a vacuum industry sanctioned test entity using approved vacuum industry test standards. Like the ASTM. It's a dyson self-serving lab and test to give the appearance of proof for dyson's false product claims. ;)

Why? Dyson is already gearing up for its (albeit weak) defense of the false and misleading dyson product claims if and when the lawsuit is served.

I hope for your sake and dyson that it has the same reproducible results from the dyson lab tests. If not...dum dum dum dum. Get the dyson grave diggers ready. It's going to be a short funeral. ;)

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/16/07 at 3:55pm

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Boo, hiss. Why? The tests are not performed and conducted by a vacuum industry sanctioned test entity using approved vacuum industry test standards. Like the ASTM. It's a dyson self-serving lab and test to give the appearance of proof for dyson's false product claims. ;)
Carmine D.

As we all know the ASTM does NOT perform or conduct any tests. Implying or stating so is simply not true and misleading at best. Secondly, the IEC not recognised by industry? Is this lack of knowledge on your part or purposefully misleading. They are the worlds leader for technical standards. Set joint standards with the ISO which many countries turn into law and are the World Trade Organizations core of technical standards. If only the knew that they are only putting out dyson self service testing protocol..

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/16/07 at 5:51pm

Hey JimB:

Who else beside dyson in the vacuum industry uses the IEC lab and testing standards?

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by vacuuman on 07/17/07 at 2:44am

I heard about this on a completely different forum. Someone is trying to sue Dyson.

But after seeing a few Dysons that were used to clean the yard, and the cstomer saying "I thought it never clogged" when we inform them that all the leaves clogged the machine, I guess I can see why the "never clogs" would be untrue in several ways. Not to mention that I have seen enough Dysons with clogged filters to say that they Do in fact lose cleaning power.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/17/07 at 7:08am

vacuuman wrote:

Not to mention that I have seen enough Dysons with clogged filters to say that they Do in fact lose cleaning power.

Hello vacuuman:

Which? magazine, the EU equivalent of the USA Consumer Reports, reports that a large portion of the consumer complaints received about dysons' malfunctions and repairs over the last 8 years deal with clogged filters and loss of suction.

I suspect the reason in part that the 36 complainants banded together and pursued the action with the ASA against dyson for its product claims. And received a favorable ruling from the ASA at the expense of dyson.

The complainants knew they would prevail successfully in their action against dyson. And no doubt their action and the ASA ruling forebode a class action lawsuit against dyson for the product claims. IMHO dyson made a fatal mistake with its product claims. Why? We've seen it over and over again. Dyson as a company and its management consistently exhibit a huge lack of experience, knowledge, and history of the vacuum industry. That coupled with a very mediocre vacuum product and extremely high prices are all the necessary ingredients for disaster.

Dyson built a brand name in the USA over the last 5 years on false and misleading product claims: NEVER CLOGS, NEVER LOSES SUCTION. After the ASA ruling against dyson and the product claims, its trying cleverly [desperately] to reinvent itself. How? Technical and scientific jargon. Sure the dyson fans and fawners come to its defense. Witness the posts above. How? Attacking the messengers: ASA, the ruling, the complainants and their supporters. USA consumers, especially vacuum buyers, are too smart for the trickery.

Dyson fits my analogy of the food coloring in the water: Put a drop of red food coloring into a glass filled with crystal clear water. Once the food coloring mixes in, you can't undue it. Similarly, once you've tarnished your brand name, you can't restore it.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/17/07 at 11:26am

Don't get your undies in a bunch. You are trying to make this ASA ruling into something it is not, no one is attacking the ruling. The ruling makes it clear that it is only refering to one specific commercial spot show in the UK that was never shown in the US. It states agreement with the dyson scientific conclusions, rules that their was no intent to decieve by the ad, but states that dyson should have been more specific so some may not end up confused.

The ruling actually agreed that used properly the dyson would not lose suction but the ad failed to state that in order for this to remain true the pre motor filter needed to be cleaned twice a year as stated in the manual. So it looks like as long as it is made clear that the pre motor filter is to be cleaned twice a year the claim remains valid. Seems pretty simple to do as dyson never has hid that fact and I don't think consumers will be scared of with be made more aware of having to wash the filter every six months.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/17/07 at 12:49pm

Hey JimB:

You are living proof of what I have said on this Forum over and over again. Where you stand depends on where you sit. If you really believe that the ASA ruling and decisions against dyson are insignificant and inconsequential for dyson and can be covered up with words, you and others who do are living by yourselves in a huge state of denial.

The ASA ruling is a major blow to the dyson brand name. Retailers and dyson have already taken actions to implement the ruling's decisions and "scrub" the false and misleading claims from dyson ads. Why? Minimize legal liability and fall out against them and dyson, following the ASA ruling.

The subsequent implications for dyson in the USA are catastrophic. The very real possibility and likelihood of a class action lawsuit isn't the only consequence for dyson. The dyson name brand is severely impugned and tarnished forever. Dyson has to deal with the negative impact of this on their products and sales. And it can't do it by using words alone, no matter how technical and scientific.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/18/07 at 5:44pm

Once again we are not talking about opinion here. When you say this european ASA opinion on wording in one tv commercial in england is "mandating" change in US retailers wording it is dishonest. When you imply the ASTM is performing and conducting testing on any product it is dishonest. Not covering up with words at all, I have read the ASA opinion and simply stated you are attempting to decieve on what it says and what consequences it has.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/18/07 at 6:11pm

Hi JimB:

The ASA rule making decision did not apply to me, it applied to dyson and its product claims.

And I'm still waiting to hear from you the vacuum makers beside dyson which use the IEC test lab in NY.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/19/07 at 10:47am

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Happy to help, absolutely no vacuum makers use either an IEC test lab or an ASTM test lab as neither do any testing for manufacturers. Both publish standards to be used by labs. As I have told you before Dyson used a well regarded 3rd party lab (Intertek) for it's testing to IEC standards. I know you are quite fond of the hoover astm test and like believing or at least claiming because hoover uses it that makes it the industry standard, but despite your trying to falsely convince all that the ASTM ran the test all are still waiting to hear if hoover or a yet to be named independent lab ran those tests.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/19/07 at 12:25pm

Hi JimB:

In other words only dyson uses the IEC test standards. The IEC standards are not sanctioned and approved as the test standard for the vacuum industry. Regardless of the lab which conducts the testing. In dyson's case its Intertek in NY. Intertek lab is an independent lab. Whether it is well regarded is a matter of personal opinion. Certainly not based on the vacuum industry's professional accreditation.

ASTM IS THE ONLY entity recognized and sanctioned by the vacuum industry [worldwide] as the test standard. And unlike dyson, vacuum brands like HOOVER using the ASTM test standards can and/do cite the other vacuums tested with its brands. The dyson test results do not name the vacuum brands used for test comparisons. Just says "Other vacuum cleaners." Not very scientific and conclusive.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by JimB on 07/19/07 at 2:07pm

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Help us out here. By the "vacuum industry" are you reffering to yourself or is there an actual organization you are basing this on? Also for the "vacuum industry's professional accreditation" do you actually send out "approved by Carmine" certificates?

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Mike_W. on 07/19/07 at 2:55pm

"Round and Round you go!" ::)

No one is going to "give in", but you will keep going; hoping one will show others how ignorant the other is. Right now it is two pages worth.

Carmine, some of this "doom and gloom" for dyson is just what others were doing re: HOOVER. Yet HOOVER is still around. Why not let dyson stay on the market and allow them to sink or swim on their own.

The dyson company is not going to go under. They will change the wording and move on-business as usual. countless other companies have done it.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/19/07 at 3:51pm

Mike W.

I agree with you in part. Why? The other vacuum brands did not cost $400 plus. And the other brands were well established in the industry with years of goodwill, trust, and a huge supply of credibility that could be "tapped" to overcome the "perceived" faults and flaws: HOOVER for example with the switch problem on the WT.

I can't say the same about dyson, even if you and others MAY think you can. Dyson may try and move on with business as usual but there are consequences of their actions and the ASA decisions for which the long term impact on dyson is still unknown.

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by HARDSELL on 07/19/07 at 10:09pm

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

Why not give us another predicted time line until Dyson is out of business.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/20/07 at 5:34am

Hi HS:

I always do. "Time will tell." "Test of time." Time is on the vacuum industry's side, not dysons. Why?

Dyson's missteps and mistakes [like the false product claims which is the latest in a long string over the past 5 + years in the USA] are attributed directly to management's lack of knowledge and understanding of the vacuum industry and its history.

Add to this lack of knowledge the extremely high prices of the dyson vacuum products; their mediocre performance at best; the lackluster dyson product support relying on partnerships with big box retailers like SEARS and BEST BUY rather than the vacuum industry experts; the increasingly better and less expensive bagless and bagged dyson competition [which dyson prophets said would all be eliminated after dyson arrived ;D]; 500 overpaid and underworked dyson engineers; R&D dollars spent on all manner of dyson products diverting and scattering resources from its core business [vacuums] AND what do you get? A mix of risky business ingredients. As the song goes: Something's got to give. ;)

Carmine D.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by HARDSELL on 07/20/07 at 7:07pm

Carmine_Difazio wrote:

In other words you are just spouting doom and gloom to Dyson as usual. Time has already told that you are all talk.

Title: Re: Dyson / ASA Lawsuit
Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/20/07 at 8:05pm

Hello HARDSELL:

In deference to Mike's wishes, I'll agree with you 100 percent. So this thread and others on the Forum can stay open and get updated with new posts in the future with the latest events and circumstances on the subject matter. Then with time, the Forum readers can draw their own conclusions based on the facts. :)

Carmine D.