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/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Vacuum Cleaner Forum >> Another New HOOVER upright /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1129712513 Message started by Mike_W. on 10/19/05 at 5:01am |
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Title: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 10/19/05 at 5:01am Well, get ready for another new HOOVER. This upright will be completely different from what you are used to seeing. It is very futuristic. So much so, that it makes the Dyson brand look antique, IMHO. This is not the HOOVER that "dualcyclone" was talking about. It does not resemble a Windtunnel or Dyson. It will have a Dyson price of $400.00 and $500.00 though. A unique feature to this series is the self cleaning HEPA filter. It continually cleans itself while you vacuum. Never touch or replace filters again(under normal use). One model will use LED lights. The hose is connected to the handle/wand like Fantom/Sanyos, so you will not need to slide the wand in the hose. It will be out shortly. Wait and See! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/19/05 at 6:33am And it will clean rugs with the HOOVER reputation for being the best! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 10/19/05 at 3:33pm Hopefully, with that "industry" standard brushroll and no need for ear protection. LOL |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 10/19/05 at 3:43pm It's been a long time since Hoover did anything bold. It's about time. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Karl on 10/19/05 at 4:37pm CARMINE and MIKE why do you always capitalise the word Hoover? :) I thought Hoover is a name not an acronym. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/19/05 at 5:38pm For me to know and others to find out. Why do you spell the word "capitalise" and we spell it capitalize? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/19/05 at 5:47pm RAT wrote:
AND smart. Perfect timing. There is a pent up demand for a new high end HOOVER upright. The faithful HOOVER owners and users of the past have been waiting. The time has finally come. The MAYTAG and Whirlpool merger will happen in the first or second quarter of 2006. I would not be surprised if HOOVER is spun off and sold. It will command a beautiful market price for Whirlpool. And there are more than a few vacuum and appliance companies with the cash and financing that would love to add the HOOVER product line to their merchandise. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 10/19/05 at 6:12pm The anticipation is killing me. Do we know if it is bagged or bagless? I hope it's very durable. That's a lot of money to spend on a disposable vacuum. Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 10/19/05 at 6:21pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I think most of them have given up and moved on to something else. LOL |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 10/19/05 at 6:44pm Hoover has their name on all their vacuums in capital letters. I can't think of a single Hoover that has done it different (I could be wrong though). :) Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/19/05 at 7:15pm Bruce wrote:
Truth is truth no matter how it is interpreted. Perhaps if Mr. Karl would like to message me privately I will share, or Mike may want to answer. ;D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 10/19/05 at 7:29pm "Self Cleaning" Hepa filter is an oxymoron. Like "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Carmine-Expert". A Hepa filter would have to actually trap dirt, but to be "clean" it would actually have to be 'clean' and not 'knock a little dirt off" like they do now with the self propelled windtunnel or the Kenmore EVO. To be 'clean' a Hepa filter would either have to be 'new' or 'washed' with absolutely no dirt in it or on it. Hoover, as is their custom, will make a silly attempt to capitalize on their failing and fading reputation to try and fight Dyson for market share. It's just as pathetic and useless as Carmin trying to convince us he's some kind of 'consultant' (Yah, right). |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 10/19/05 at 7:38pm I wonder how the filter works.... Maybe while the vacuum is on, the filter spins around and gets flicked by a piece of plastic or something. Just a dumb idea... I really want to know what this vacuum looks like. I wonder if it is anything like UK model The One. The hose set-up sounds very similar. The One is also very cool-looking. Too bad it's all style and no substance. Maybe they took that design and somehow improved it? Maybe they're bringing back the brushroll used in Concept Ones. ;D Live in hope! Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by joethevacman on 10/19/05 at 7:47pm dualcyclone wrote:
OHHHHHH SNAP! ANOTHER BUUUUURN! good one Dual! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 10/19/05 at 8:17pm This will be known as the hoover Z. It converts from canister to upright with their patented Z design. It is veryyyyyy interesting looking. It's looking like this will be a Sears item right now. BTW, Carmine capitalizes hoover to get you to pay attention to that word in particular.........little subliminal messages |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/19/05 at 9:07pm HOOVER does it again. 100 years and still going strong. Pure marketing and product genius. It's gonna WOW you! Step aside vacuum lovers, make way sweeper fans, watch out breathless bagless, take note door to door vacuum sales, clear a wide path for the USA VACUUM CLEANER CHAMPION: HOOVER. THe legendary name in floorcare does it again. It's going to knock out the competition. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 10/19/05 at 9:08pm Sort of like a sanyo transformax looking comtraption?as moe said to the majha , we shall see,just hope it works and lasts , whens the introduction date , anybody know, O 'boy another machine to stock parts for. good day, old-timer :o |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 10/19/05 at 9:27pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
hahahahahahahahahaha, i was rolling on the floor when I read this........too funny. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 10/19/05 at 9:36pm old age and trechery overcomes youth and exurberance?Carmine's older than the dirt in his house but still gets EXCITED, at times . Who else do you know that gets off on rug suckers like him. old-timer ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by lionsweeperuser on 10/19/05 at 11:03pm Stan Kann, a man of no small fame on several fronts, including as an accomplished organist and vintage vacuum cleaner collector, who appeared many times on the "Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson, says the best Hoover was the Model 25 of 1937! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 10/19/05 at 11:09pm Okay, so is it out in stores yet? Has anyone actually seen this thing in person yet? Does anyone know when it will be in stores? Just curious. Thanks! Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 10/19/05 at 11:24pm not out yet......supposedly out sometime 4q this year |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by joethevacman on 10/20/05 at 12:40am old-timer wrote:
THE DEGRATEMENT IS OUT STRONG TONIGHT BOYS! KEEP IT COMING! THAT'S THE ONLY REASON I READ THIS FORUM IS TO HEAR THE INSULTS THAT I CAN TAKE TO SCHOOL AND USE ON INCONSIDERATE KNOW-IT-ALL PEOPLE THERE! EXCELLENT! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 10/20/05 at 2:08am Karl wrote:
It is so simple. HOOVER is capitalized on their merchandise. Have you noticed when I sometimes write ORECK? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 10/20/05 at 2:28am There are going to be two models to choose from, hence the two prices. They will be out very shortly. The HOOVER Z is in reference to its shape. It will fold down into a "Z". It is a very unique design. It also has a looped handle. The filter cleans itself every few minutes. You will hear a "click" when it cleans. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 10/20/05 at 2:52am Where do the particulates from the HEPA filter go during the self-cleaning process? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 3:28am "hahahahahahahahahaha, i was rolling on the floor when I read this........too funny. " Do you think the price drop by dyson on the DC15 effective Nov 1 and the new DC15 model at the SAM's Club are a coincidence? Or are these a direct result of the new HOOVER vacuums? He who laughs last, laughs best! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 5:57am One quarterly report of sales propelled dyson ahead of HOOVER in total dollar market share. MAYTAG stock hit a 52 week low of $9 per share. The "SELF-PROCLAIMED" experts on the Forum were prophesizing the imminent demise of HOOVER. What happened? Less than 9 months later: HOOVER went against dyson in a TV advertizing campaign that is legendary in the industry. MAYTAG will be acquired by Whirlpool for $21 a share next year. A new line of HOOVER products has emerged that will revolutionize the vacuum industry. Wal-Mart discontinued their exclusive dyson upright for $349 and replaced it with the HOOVER FUSION vacuum at $128. BEST BUY culled the DC11 and culled the DC07. BB added an exclusive line of VAX bagless uprights that are knocking off high end bagless sales. (Guess which brand in particular). Dyson's "set in stone product pricing" (exact words from an "expert" here) is pulverized. Many retailers are already selling dysons well below the MAP with immunity in anticipation of the price fall. And the finale: The Forum's dyson carrying, banner waving, No. 1 sales pitcher does not sell dysons any longer. Talk about funny! Oxymoron? This revelation by the expert himself was met with a "thunderous silence." Parting is such "sweet sorrow." Old-timer is right. I still get excited by the vacuum industry. And I get paid without getting my hands dirty. I'm laughing all the way to the bank. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 7:30am BTW whatever happened with that well publicized Forum lawsuit by the so called "expert." Remember the one in which the "e-x-p-e-r-t" said dyson would sue HOOVER over the FUSION? Remember the supposed top secret lawsuit "wrapped up in a big red bow that would be waiting for Whirlpool?" I believe those are his exact words. The Whirlpool auditors were so impressed when they reviewed the books, the company increased the buyout price not once, not twice, but THREE times! Correct the Forum if I'm wrong "Mr. EXPERT." Your notoriety on this Forum and others for your misstatements, falsehoods, and misinformation is legendary in the industry. THe vacuum experts see your name and they start laughing before they read your posts. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Jack on 10/20/05 at 9:54am This place really can get personal and some here seem just a bit on the angry side. Interesting how what should be a positive exciting time for a Hoover person turns into such a hate filled attack on all things Dyson. For all in the industry I am excited that it seems Hoover is back in the game of trying to sell a high end unit with features and benefits. I am not sure how one person not selling new dysons as a personel business decision really effects the quality of the product, but in reading here did you not used to sell quite a few Hoovers in a shop you owned? Do you still sell Hoovers in this way or did you make a personal business decision to do something different? Carmine I admire your enthusiasm, but their are just a few inaccuracies and just a bit of jumping the gun in your spin. Good luck in your Hoover sales and as I believe you are fond of saying, time will tell. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 12:03pm Jack: I'm just setting the Forum straight for the record. Nothing personal. Just business. Emotions never get in the way of business. I haven't sold a new HOOVER since 1992. Retired from the vacuum store business 1949-1992. Sold the business to a professional colleague who is still in the vacuum business in the same store and location I had for over 40 years. Consulting work now. It's easier on the body, less headaches, and I don't get my hands dirty anymore. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 10/20/05 at 12:21pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
My vote is on coincidence. Apparently Dyson has decided that the price of the Ball was too high to move the volume they wanted to sell. No one can predict how well the new Hoover will sell, so I'm skeptical that Dyson would know how it will affect their sales. Unless Dyson has invented a crystal ball... |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 2:16pm Mr. RAT: If dyson did invent a crystal ball and "IT WORKED PROPERLY" as he says, I'd buy it. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 2:33pm "Good luck in your Hoover sales and as I believe you are fond of saying, time will tell." To set the Forum record straight, I DO NOT SELL HOOVERS, I DO NOT WORK FOR HOOVER and I HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR HOOVER. When I had my vacuum cleaner sales and service business (1949-1992) I was an authorized HOOVER sales and service dealer and then a HOOVER warranty dealer. I was also a warranty dealer for EUREKA and PANASONIC concurrently with HOOVER. Nothing personal just business. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Jack on 10/20/05 at 2:43pm Sorry did not mean to imply in any way you were working for Hoover, but it is just a little obvious who you are rooting for and pushing in the forum. Thus it is polite to wish continued good luck. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/20/05 at 2:58pm Jack wrote:
No offense taken or apology needed. Several persons on the Forum have made reference to me as a HOOVER employee or associated with HOOVER in sales. People reading here have posted to me and asked. I am more aware of it so I post it whenever I suspect a misunderstanding. If I was rooting exclusively for HOOVER, I would never have been EUREKA and PANASONIC too in addition to all other makes and models. In business as in your personal life, it's never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. The same is true for vacuums. One is not the best for all. Giving customers options is the way to successful business and longevity. HOOVER uprights have my respect and admiration for being the best rug cleaners in the history of the vacuum industry in the USA. As pointed out by another here on the Forum who is wiser than me, HOOVER is the GOLD standard among vacuums for rug cleaning. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 10/20/05 at 4:44pm Jack wrote:
Sure there's some excitement about the sleeping giant coming out with something new. There has also been concern of how Hoover would be handled by Maytag and if the merger goes through Whirlpool. There's some hope that the bean counters that have been running the company have allowed the engineers to do something creative for a change. Hoover has seemed to only be interested in new machines at the low end of the price scale. Will be interesting to see Hoover's version of a high end machine. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 10/20/05 at 6:03pm Carmine,and RAT, its nice to see hoover get back into the high end upright market again, hopefully the machine works and lasts, hopefully research and development had done a bang up job, there should be no corners cut on a 500.00 vacuum. It would be interesting to see the advertising campain built for it. I dont think money's an issue for hoover anymore. LET THE GAMES BEGIN, old-timer ;) |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 10/23/05 at 12:25pm Yes, this forum gets flame happy all too often. As for the self cleaning HEPA filter, how does it handle oily dirt residues that plug up virtually every other filter on the planet? Or particles that collect in it due to electrostatic attraction? Will check it out once it is on the market to see! It would also be nice to see this new Hoover run quietly (the small Flair isn't bad, suggesting it's possible). |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/02/05 at 3:28pm VacOMatic wrote:
I asked this question before but no answers have come forth yet. I'm still interested to know "where" the collected particulates "go" during the self-cleaning process?? ********************************** I think Dual's explanation sums it up: "Self Cleaning" Hepa filter is an oxymoron. Like "Jumbo Shrimp" or "Carmine-Expert". A Hepa filter would have to actually trap dirt, but to be "clean" it would actually have to be 'clean' and not 'knock a little dirt off' like they do now with the self propelled windtunnel or the Kenmore EVO. To be 'clean' a Hepa filter would either have to be 'new' or 'washed' with absolutely no dirt in it or on it. Hoover, as is their custom, will make a silly attempt to capitalize on their failing and fading reputation to try and fight Dyson for market share. It's just as pathetic and useless as Carmine trying to convince us he's some kind of 'consultant' (Yah, right). " Bruce ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/02/05 at 5:57pm Bruce: The only conclusive answer is let's wait and see how it works and then judge. I would suggest if you like to surmise that you consider the EUREKA with on the on-board spin duster. I understand that the feature works "properly." It cleans all the dust and dirt on the duster and restores it back to pristine condition. Users are very satisfied with the results. And even Consumer Reports says it works as it claims. Amazing! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/02/05 at 6:03pm Fortunately for me and him, Dual Cyclonic Eureka doesn't buy my beer and/or sign my pay checks. He couldn't afford to do either. I don't drink cheap beer and I don't work cheap either. That's why I am called a consultant. I charge by the hour and have an expense account. Clients pay or they get someone else cheaper. But not better. When you want the best, you have to be willing to pay for it. And my clients do. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 12/02/05 at 7:23pm Well I got my hands on the new Hoover Z at a local Sears.......... The self cleaning filter is constantly rotating and there is a small silver piece of metal that hangs down into the hepa. This is the piece that cleans the filter. It "flicks" the dust off of the filter. Whatever is flicked off drops into the container with the rest of the dirt. Ok pluses and minuses........ Plus...... -Self cleaning filter is a nice feature. Hoover also says it never needs to be replaced. -20 ft cleaning reach on hose........very nice Minus........ -Heavy...couldn't get an exact weight -TERRIBLE suction.......I measured it at 46 in. of lift at the end of the hose -Self Cleaning filter........I see this causing a problem later on -Big and Bulky Also, does anyone really need a canister/upright hybrid? Interesting idea, but why? There ya have it. Go to your local Sears to check out the new toy. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 12/02/05 at 8:16pm Hi Matt, how does it clean, are the attachments easy to use, does the label say where it's made, does it feel like a well made cleaner, hows the detail work does everything fit right. And whats the price range. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 12/02/05 at 9:42pm old-timer wrote:
It seemed to clean ok, but not overly impressive The attachments are pretty easy to use Sorry I didnt look to see where it was made It did feel well made, but heavy Such a different design it will take time to evaluate details and if they work and fit right, especially with the filter They have 2 models, for $400 and $500......the more expensive comes with addtional attachments and a longer power cord Definitely go check one out. It is so completely different, ya just have to see for yourself |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/02/05 at 10:37pm "Fortunately for me and him, Dual Cyclonic Eureka doesn't buy my beer and/or sign my pay checks. He couldn't afford to do either. I don't drink cheap beer and I don't work cheap either. That's why I am called a consultant. I charge by the hour and have an expense account. Clients pay or they get someone else cheaper. But not better. When you want the best, you have to be willing to pay for it. And my clients do. " I never knew any one who got the best with a consultant. The come in, screw things up and leave the regulars to straighten their mess. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/03/05 at 1:29am Sounds like sour grapes HARDSELL. I can't make my clients follow my advice. That's up to them. Oftentimes they have to learn the HARD way. As the saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I get paid to lead the horse to water. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/03/05 at 2:16am Hopefully our Sears has one of the Z's and I'll pay a visit...thanks for heads up Mike W. and others. As for the Z's self cleaning HEPA, it sounds decidedly low tech (and similar to how the Sanyo Dirt hunter and several other bagless vacs clean their filters (rotate it against a stationary "blade" strip that causes the filter pleats to "flick", similar to a playing card flicking against a bicycle spoke). I can't see how that will remove microscopic dust held in the filter by electrostatic charges (Carl gave an excellent dissertation on filter design some time ago), but perhaps Hoover does not need electrostatic charge for good HEPA performance. As for Z's low (kinder word here) suction, many Hoovers have proven to be excellent rug cleaners in spite of lower suction than some other models. It boils down to how well the overall vac works. However, for tool or cannister use, low suction would be a drawback. Incidently, where is the Z made and Designed? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 12/03/05 at 3:12am The HOOVER Z's came in last Sunday. They are very interesting vacuum cleaners. The Z looks really large and does weigh quite a bit. Women will most likely say that it is too big. When the Z folds up/folds down, it reminds me of the new robot in the Lost in Space movie. It has a very long 35' cord(Z 700). After turning the machine on, you will hear a strange noise. That noise is the HEPA filter turning. The filter continuously turns as you vacuum. The Z uses "reversed airflow and tapping" to clean the filter. There is a metal wire, similar to a paper clip, that rubs up against the pleats of the filter. As the filter turns, the wire flicks the dust off the filter. The fine particles are then deposited into a small portion of the dirt cup, that is separate from the larger debris compartment. The dirt container is a dirt cup. It is smaller than most. The positive side is that the cup(or cartridge) is very easy to remove and empty. It will most likely need to be emptied a few times during regular vacuuming. The filter did clean itself quite well, but not completely. Vacuum "Enthusiasts" will like this vacuum cleaner. All the controls are electronic. Push a button to set the proper height(four settings), push a button for slower agitation, push a button for the power. On the same panel as these buttons is a diagnostic display. The problem area of the vacuum cleaner will light up on the diagram, so the user can troubleshoot. This will be a great feature for those who do not understand the vacuum cleaner and what can go wrong. What I do not like about the series, like some other brands/models is that if there is a problem w/ the belt, for example, the vacuum cleaner must be taken to an authorized HOOVER service center. The Z has a brushroll that activates when the user lowers the handle for rug cleaning. The brushroll is wooden w/ "HOOVER" bristles like the Empower. It does a great job on carpeting. There are LED lights spaced apart, on the front of the bumper. I did not think they were that bright. Disconnecting the stainless steel wand was easy. It is small and telescopic. In order to clean floors, there is also a plastic wand and Wessell-Werk floor brush to connect. The hose has a long 20' reach. It cleaned well on floors. What is really great is that the vacuum stays put when the hose is stretched. Some HOOVER vacuum collectors will look at the cleaning head and recognize it from the past. The head looks like the cleaning head of past HOOVER uprights like the 700/725, w/ their low profile cleaning head(less the motor hood). The belt and HEPA filter should last the life of the machine. This series is assembled in the U.S. I have to say that I did not get the same results as the previous poster. I measured 58" for suction. I think that you can expect the price of this series to drop w/ time, like other brands sold in big box stores. I believe women will not like the weight. And think there was one or two that doubted that I even saw it before they came on the market. I guess they are thinking differently now. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/03/05 at 8:23am "Sounds like sour grapes HARDSELL. I can't make my clients follow my advice. That's up to them. Oftentimes they have to learn the HARD way. As the saying goes: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I get paid to lead the horse to water. " No sour grapes here. Corporate has had many consultants in. They assessed my operation, and walked away saying that they could not improve it. The stable boy leads the horse. The horse is the real worker and the stable boy is only looking for a free ride. Not unlike consultants. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacuumfreeeke on 12/03/05 at 11:39am Is there a place online that has pictures of the machine? I tried to call my local Sears, but no one answered the vacuum department, kind of like when I used to work there. I just hate to drive all the way there if they haven't gotten the machines in yet. I live in Florida, and I think that the stores up north get things before we do here... but I am anxious to see the new machine. I called Hoover and went to the Hoover and Sears websites, but my efforts were moot. When I did a google search I came up with Hoover Z bags! What's the model number on these babys? Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/03/05 at 12:30pm I am very happy to see the new HOOVER launched already at SEARS, a perfect launch venue for it. I would have thought that HOOVER would have kept the new high end models under wraps until the Whirlpool takeover in the Spring of 2006. BY not waiting until then, HOOVER is making a bold move. Certainly the deal was done (buyout) regardless of the new roll of the high end HOOVERs. By not waiting until April-June 2006 timeframe which is the usual rollout of new vacuum products, HOOVER is very confident in the success of these new products. To me this is not a sign of a company that is content in sitting on its laurels (or a less derogatory place named after a part of the anatomy which a dyson fan prefers to use). 3 cheers for HOOVER. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/03/05 at 12:46pm "No sour grapes here. Corporate has had many consultants in. They assessed my operation, and walked away saying that they could not improve it. " HARDSELL Congratulations. You know some of the best horse tips I get come from the stable workers. And that's the truth. I don't say "boys" any more because if you know anything about horse breeding and racing business, there are alot of good women too. I make it practice to get to know the stable workers well. I have for 50 years. I take umbrage with your statement that your operations cannot be improved. In my business, the consulting business, I tell my clients that there is always one more thing you can do better. And then after that, there is one more thing, and then one more thing. And the beat goes on. Like I said, nothing stays the same in the vacuum business for very long. It is constantly in a state of chaos, confusion and flux. Most businesses today and in the past have been like that chaotic: i.e. General Motors realizes that now about 40 years too late. You never shared your business with the Forum. But if it a business that has been around for any amount of time, and you have worked there for while, I suggest that my work place theorem applies. In fact, your upper mangement, if you are bold enough to share my theorem with them, would wholeheartedly agree with it. Fortunately, these (upper management) are the persons who buy my beer and sign my pay check. Not people who think everything is perfect and can't be improved. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 12/03/05 at 12:57pm I don't believe Hardsell stated his business could not be improved, just that the every day worker who knows the job inside and out was in a better position than a consultant. I as one who does do consulting work think there is a happy medium between your two thoughts on the subject. Often when I consult the most workable and best ideas are already there in the business structure and for many reasons they have not been implemented by management. I have stated that I consult in the marketing field I am curious who pays your bills marketing, sales, finance, retail merchandising...? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/03/05 at 1:00pm That's easy. I pay my own bills with the assistance of my dear Wife. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 12/03/05 at 1:11pm Yeah, but what happens when you tell the bill collector that these 5 units of pennies are really more valuable than those 2 units of 20 dollar bills? ;) |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/03/05 at 4:59pm Carmine always traded in wampum. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/03/05 at 6:25pm I happened to come across a Hoover Z at Sears today, and it is an interesting looking machine to say the least. The signs in the showroom that dictated this being "The First Sport Utility Vacuum Cleaner from Hoover" were almost laughable!!! Aside from that, this machine was BIG and heavy, and seemed to have a high center of gravity. If people thought the DC15 looked too complicated and difficult to operate, wait till they see this thing. One thing that I noticed almost immediately was its low capacity debris container. It almost reminded me of the debris container used in the original Eureka Whirlwind. In this container, you have a wire mesh screen, with a 6-second self cleaning pleated hepa filter that is supposed to maintain suction by using a fin and reverse airflow to knock off dust. However, I would be less concerned with the Z losing suction by dust build up and more concerned by hair and debris build up on the first stage wire mesh filter. All bagless Hoover cleaners to this point used a system composed of a pre-screening 12" wire mesh filter, followed by the pleated HEPA filter. With those two filters placed vertically in the collection bins, dust and debris would build up from bottom to top, allowing suction to last until the filters are entirely covered with dust and hair. From what I saw in the collection bin on the new Z, It would seem that any lightweight hair and debris that enters the chamber would immediately build up on the preliminary 4" wire mesh filter (kind of like how pet hair would build up on the perpherated bin seperator in the original Eureka Whirlwind) causing suction to be lost almost immediately. I think it would have been better to use the cyclonic filtration system from the Fusion rather than go with this low tech self cleaning filter system. The main feature of the Z seems to be the ability to transform from an upright to a canister...well, it doesn't really transform into a canister, it folds down into a tight "z"shape with the multiple pivots in the machines upright body. Quite frankly, I don't see why this thing has to fold down for you to perform mobile canister type cleaning, since there are many uprights out there that do just find in the upright position with cleaning wand and hose extensions with carpet/barefloor cleaning heads. This folding feature seems extremely redundant to me, and unnecessarily complicated for an upright design. The new Hoover Z, in my humble opinion, is not as groundbreaking or revolutionary as Hoover claims for it to be. It is quite large, and felt cumbersome to use (especially in tight spaces), the debris capacity is quite low, and the filtration system is nothing special. The folding down design seems to have no real purpose, and seems to be a gimmick. Perhaps Hoover calls this thing a Sport Utility Vacuum (S.U.V) because it's as oversized, expensive, immobile, and inefficient as the vehicles which bear the same abreviation. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/03/05 at 6:55pm Thanks for the critique on the new Hoover Z. So it has another one of those dreaded wire mesh screens to deal with. Dyson manages to avoid this, why can't Hoover? I bet James Dyson is snickering to himself as I write ;D Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/03/05 at 9:37pm then again, Dyson has the "hidden center tube dust buildup" problem some Dyson users have reported here. While cleaning a wire screen isn't pleasant, trying to pick hair out of a pleated filter is even worse. How much does the Z weigh? And incidently, internet search engines get tripped up by "Hoover Z" as Hoover makes a disposable bag with the title of "Z". |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/03/05 at 9:58pm Hi Execute, Thanks from me too. I going to take a look-see over at my Sears early in the week. Regards, Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/03/05 at 11:36pm VacOMatic wrote:
I've never seen the center tube problem with any of my Dyson's. Even if there were an accumulation, you can tap against the side of the unit and dislodge the debris "without" touching any dirt. The screen on the Hoover is another story. How does one clean it without touching it? Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 12/03/05 at 11:42pm It's crazy to say that the Hoover Hepa filter continuously cleans itself while the machine runs. There's NO WAY a Hepa filter can trap particles, (think of the airflow direction) and at the same time, dislodge those particles from the filter they are trapped on, WHILE the airflow continues. That would be like saying that the Fusion works "properly". |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 12/04/05 at 3:57am I went and tried one today (at Sears, of course), and have mixed thoughts. The Hoover Z is very quiet. It slowly starts up, and it sounds quiet and smooth. On low speed you can very noticeably hear the filter spinning around inside the dirt cup. Although heavy, when the machine is adjusted to the carpet properly, it merrily glides across the floor. I had my friend adrianne push it (a 100 pound girl), and she really enjoyed it. It pulls itself along nicely, and it was very fun to use. It cleans very well. It picked up all the dirt I could find in one pass, and left very nice tracks in the carpeting. While I was there, I emptied all of the dysons on display (no workers were around), and rammed the Z into the piles at full speed. It turned off. It turned off and a red "SEE MANUAL" light came on in the little selection panel. I turned it back on, and proceeded to vacuum more clumps of dirt up. It shut itself off three times. These lumps of dirt were about the size of....ummmm...clementines. The vacuum has a very touchy brushroll jam indicator. That's good. Hoover is learning from their Savvy mistakes. I don't care what anyone says. I think they look awesome. Very techno-savvy. I wish the white one had LED's and the barefloor tool. That white Z is just beautiful. The tool suction is fine. If a vacuum can run a powered hand-tool without any problems, then I am not going to complain. I use a dial-a-matic to clean out my car. It doesn't have as much suction as new uprights, but it gets the job done and it gets it done well. The Z will too. Okay, now to the filter. While using the vacuum, I was hypnotized by the filter. It was fun to watch it spin around. I was thinking about other bagless vacuums while I was using the Z. Vacuums with Pleated filters. Unfortunately, the only thing the Hoover Z's "self-cleaning filter" will do is slow down the inevitable. Eventually, there will be dirt that no fin can flick off, and it will build up. The Z will slowly start to lose suction, and eventually will need to be cleaned manually. Thats not really a big deal. So you wipe a filter down with a paint brush outside. So what? Well....the Hoover Z makes you work to get to that filter. Let's just say there's screws. Thats really too bad. I don't mind cleaning off a filter every so often, but Hoover should not have even begun to think that machine was going to be content with itself forever. Shyeah. A major design flaw. The machine is heavy. It's made with thick plastic, which seems to be much sturdier than all the other Hoover uprights on shelves. There were a few parts to the Z (IMPORTANT parts) thats should be much tougher. The handle release is incredibly cheap. Very thin plastic that I am confident will not hold up. The little pin that keeps the vacuum held in the upright position (when you so desire it to be) is also very thin plastic. A lot of pressure is on that little pin. It should be metal. Another stress part that doesn't look like it will hold up...the little sliding latch that keeps the handle (hose) in place. It's stupid-thin plastic. People will carry the heavy Z around by it's looped handle, and it will put sooo much pressure on that sliding latch. It should be metal, no questions asked. I don't understand why it isn't. Its a $500 vacuum cleaner. The brushroll should also at least have metal ends (God forbid), or perhaps even a metal brushroll. Hoover used to make the best brushrolls. They capitalized on it. The brushroll in the Z is very aggressive, but its not durable. Luckily it has the brushroll shut-off to protect it, but If I'm going to pay that much for a vacuum, I want to be confident that it will last a long time (Riccar please!). The compartment that holds the tools and the cord is both pointless and flimsy. A lot of people commented the Hoover Z being bulky. Well, yeah, it's big, but the head is so long and so low-profile its not like it won't be able to get it under funiture. I imagine having no problems manuvering it through my home, and I have almost no largely open spaces there. If Hoover made the necessary wear parts MUCH stronger, and ditched that silly filter for a filtrete bag, they would have a winner on their hands. It cleans great, looks sexy, and purrs like all vacuums should. While I do think that it is one of the best bagless vacuums out in stores now (that's not saying much though), I would definately not recommend it. Hopefully it will get revisioned quickly, and the next two models will be the amazing vacuums we secretly wanted these to be. Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/04/05 at 4:05am Dial-a-matix: Thanks for an honest broker's account of the new HOOVER "Z." Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by SleepDoc on 12/04/05 at 11:49am Is the Hoover Z at Sears stores nationwide? I'd like to stop in to see one. I can't find it anywhere online. Patrick |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/04/05 at 7:38pm Is this Star Wars relic going to be Hoover's salvation. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/04/05 at 7:52pm First time models always have kinks to work out. Anyway, a visit to our Sears revealed both Z models; $399 for white and $499 for graphite "animal tool" model respectively. Only had a brief time with them but: Good: 1. assembled in USA (was dark but I think it was Iowa, USA) 2. parts fit well and vac was nicely finished 3. did nice job grooming Sears test rugs and surrounding floor 4. Much quieter than most uprights (the Ball shrieks by comparison) 5. easy to set brush heigth and well lit controls Bad: 1. very heavy; you push/tug it rather than glide it over rugs 2. very small dirt container 3. small dirt chamber screen (about half the size of an Empower's) 4. cord chamber may be stylish, but gets in the way of using cord. 5. dim LED's (couldn't see any light on rugs up front). Ugly: 1. Noted wear on both samples' pleated filters right where they contacted the "flipper" plastic. Also, both pleated filters were quite dusty and had some impacted/matted dust at their ends (the flipper wasn't keeping them very clean). The filter did not seem particularly easy to remove. That pleated filter may be Z's achilles heel. Pity, as there is a lot to like otherwise. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/04/05 at 9:46pm Wrong. Dyson is the only flawed vacuum ever built. If you do not agree, ask Carmine. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dial-a-matix on 12/05/05 at 4:24pm Another thing about it that's interesting is that the dirt path on the vacuum is in the center of the head. Powercast style. Corey |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/05/05 at 4:33pm HARDSELL wrote:
My sentiments and opinions about the dyson uprights are summarized exactly by Consumer Reports. My thoughts and feelings with regard to dyson uprights have been and still are almost identical to those made by Consumer Reports with regard to the dysons and bagless vacuums in general. While my opinions may not influence the buying public, Consumer Reports certainly have and still do. Unlike CR which does not comment specifically on vacuum prices as I do, I consistently said that the prices of dysons are too high for the market to bear. While others contradicted and argued with me when I made these comments, I was right to be critical of the prices. ALL the dyson prices have dropped substantially from MSRP (even before sales, cash rebates, and discounts up to 20 percent by retailers like Bed, Bath and Beyond and Linens-N-Things). Retailers dropped exclusive models (like the All Carpet) and/or old models like the DC07 and/or stopped selling the line all together like Dual who boasted at one time that he was selling one a day for almost 6 months. It was very short lived. I also agree with all others who posted here and have said that the CR assessments and ratings of dyson present fairly the strengths and weaknesses of the dyson vacuums (as well as the other vacuums). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/05/05 at 7:29pm How about those consistently lowered Hoover prices. I never once heard you say that they were screwing the consumer. Of course I never expected the whole story from you. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 12/05/05 at 7:39pm Hoover will see what it sells like at those prices , and adjust them, if need be. Just like any other forward thinking company. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/06/05 at 4:11am HARDSELL wrote:
You're at it again. And still wrong and very misguided. You've forgotten the HOOVER Floormate launch in the spring of 2000 and my comments about the price? THe MSRP was $269 and the venue was the big box retailers. I said on several vacuum Forums that talked about the new HOOVER Floormate before the product even made it to the market that the price would have to come down or it would not sell. It did and it did. You have never heard me say that a brand's product prices are "set in stone." I never say that makers' enforce MAP with big box retailers. Others have made those claims on this Forum. They made the claims with authority and certainty as though they were facts. They're wrong. THese are not facts. People with experience in vacuum retail and business in the USA know that over time these statements have been proved wrong time and time again. Just like I know it and said. Performance or gimmick? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/06/05 at 4:16am old-timer wrote:
I believe Mike W. made a cogent comment about the new HOOVER "Z" prices: They will come down. I believe he's right and I haven't seen or used the product yet. But Old-timer's comment is one from someone who has been in the vacuum business in the USA for many years and knows what happens when big box retailers are the products' sales venue. Based on my experience, I would agree with Mike W. and Old-timer. I disagreed with Dual when he said the dyson prices were "set in stone." I disagreed with Matt mmc when he said dyson would enforce MAP against the big box retailers. Dyson can't enforce MAP against LNT and the retailer is up on the auction block. LNT has been selling dysons for 20 percent off for months. BB&B too. THey just started to make their advertised coupons agree with their practices and include dysons in the sale. Product makers kow tow to the big box retailers on prices. Like I said, price drops by retailers emulate a group of school boys whistling past the graveyard at midnight. Each is waiting for the other to cut and run first. After one does, they all do. MAP? Lots of Luck. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 12/06/05 at 1:51pm Carmine, I think we get the whole "dyson bad/hoover good" thing, but was curious if you had the opportuinity to give a review on the new product this thread is about? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/06/05 at 3:16pm Justasking2: Please see below. "I believe Mike W. made a cogent comment about the new HOOVER "Z" prices: They will come down. I believe he's right and I haven't seen or used the product yet. " Carmine D. Posted TODAY in the post above yours. :D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 12/06/05 at 4:02pm "HOOVER does it again. 100 years and still going strong. Pure marketing and product genius. It's gonna WOW you! Step aside vacuum lovers, make way sweeper fans, watch out breathless bagless, take note door to door vacuum sales, clear a wide path for the USA VACUUM CLEANER CHAMPION: HOOVER. THe legendary name in floorcare does it again. It's going to knock out the competition. Carmine D." As you already anointed it product genius and that it will knock out the competition earlier in the thread I was having a tough time reconciling your new hands off/have not seen it stance. :D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/06/05 at 4:20pm Thanks guys for all the great entertainment so far ;D Maybe Carmine should have finished with "Will not only knock your socks off... but will suck them up too" LOL Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/06/05 at 5:38pm I was waiting until I actually used the "Z" before I made the claim that it would knock your socks off and suck them back up again. I didn't want to exaggerate its capabilities without proof. As mentioned before on the Forum, Westinghouse made a 2 in 1 vacuum in the 60's called the Converto-Vac (HOOVER already used the model name Convertible). It claimed (and true) that it converts from upright to canister in 10 seconds. It failed miserably and was Westinghouse's final attempt in the USA vacuum market. It was knocked out mostly by the HOOVER Dial-a-Matic. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 12/06/05 at 5:41pm Here's some pictures of the Hoover Z from the Sears web site. http://s7.sears.com/is/image/Sears/02036882000?layer=comp&wid=190&hei=190&fmt=jpeg&qlt=75,0&op_sharpen=0&resMode=norm&op_usm=0.5,1.0,0.0,0 http:// http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/020/020_36882_SuperStrch-f500.jpg http:// http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/020/020_36882_Upright-f500.jpg http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=APPL&pid=02036882000 |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 12/06/05 at 8:27pm Well Well Well, the Hoover Z: A Delco, meets the Fantom Twister, meets a shop vac. The nozzle is stolen from the 1937 Delco The hose was stolen from the Fantom Twister The filter is stolen from dad's shop vac in the garage. The machine does not look very clever. It doesn't betray unique technology. It looks like a beast, A darn contraption as my friend Hans would say. A Rube Goldberg invention, just for Carmine, who is old enough to know who Rube Goldberg was. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by lionsweeperuser on 12/06/05 at 8:48pm I was dumbfounded when I saw the appearance of the Hoover Z! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/06/05 at 9:39pm dualcyclone wrote:
You almost forgot: The model name was stolen from the alphabet: Z: the final name in vacuuming. :D Thanks for the pics RAT. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by M00seUK on 12/07/05 at 8:42am It's very, um, unique! Reminds me of something... http://www.iweb.cz/~vecer/fotky/anim/johny.jpg |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by SleepDoc on 12/07/05 at 9:16am Good call! Number Five is alive! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 12/07/05 at 2:13pm The filter housing looks like a Harley belt drive cover. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacgurl911 on 12/07/05 at 5:50pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
i just wanted to say that the kirby diamond editon turns from a upright to a canister also . soooooooo |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/07/05 at 6:00pm As a poster asked in another thread what are the design consequences of the fan first KIRBY under normal operations. Good question. The Kirby in the canister mode gives most users false security that they can pick up the large objects that most users pick up with straight suction tanks and canisters. If you do use it this way the bad stuff passes right through the fan, fan chamber, and into the bag causing potentially untold damage to fan blades and motor housing. Another consideration is the time and effort to convert to a canister. The Converto-Vac claimed 10 seconds. And for a familiar user was true. The HOOVER is probably in the same range. KIRBY? Alot more time and effort is needed. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacuumfreeeke on 12/07/05 at 11:01pm Hey all! I saw the new Hoover at Sears today. I was impressed with the noise level. I don't understand the point of the folding design. I like that the attachments were closed up so they don't fall off during use. They, sadly were those CHEAP attachments that Hoover uses in every machine. I wonder if they will ever change. I didn't like having to close the door over the cord... that seems tedious. I pinched the cord three times before I wound it tight enough to close the door over it. And the cord wraps are very close together, so it took a while to wind. The switch pad was well laid out, but I still prefer fingertip switches. I didn't understand the height adjustment... are the wheels spring loaded, or does "automatic" adjust mean "no" adjust? The brushroll intrigued me... it was very big and had stiff bristles, but not contoured at all... reminded me of the brushroll that Eureka uses in their current machines. Even though it was heavy, I didn't find it hard to push. The dirt chamber was very low, not easily accessible. I don't think it is a horrible vacuum, but over priced for sure. If I were forced to choose, give me a Dyson any day! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/07/05 at 11:06pm Carmine you know there was no way I was going to hear talk of this thing and not get myself to a Sears before the end of the week. Had a problem with my new Electrolux 7000A and had to go over tonight anyway -- I'll discuss that elsewhere -- and thus got my chance to have a look. This great behemoth, the "Z," breaks down in even less than ten seconds I think. You merely pull a round ring to collapse the unit and push a tab to disengage the cleaning wand which serves as the upright handle and go to work. However the demo model I saw, the white version, had been used but was nowhere full and tool suction was very, very disappointing. The drum shaped pleated filter revolved relatively slowly and I saw nothing that seemed to be freeing it of collected dust and dirt. The combination cord storage/attachment compartent is a very silly idea. Also note that the Z when collapsed is difficult to pull. The cleaner feels as if it weighs about the same poundage as my Power Cast. The fun side was pushing the three-setting carpet height adjustment at the base of the handle and watching the nozzle raise and lower electrrically. In upright mode it felt as though some kind of propulsion assist was in play. That may well have been pure imagination on my part as it seemed to me that the machine is just too big to be affected by any pull from the revolving brush roll. The larger part of my feeling on this "new Hoover" is that it's a downright shame that the engineers weren't sharing any of whatever it was they were on when they dreamed this one up. However -- the staunch vacuum collector should snatch up one for posterity. No one will ever believe this thing was made unless you keep a few around as proof. Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacuuman on 12/08/05 at 12:21am There is a small metal spring with a loop at the end that the pleates "click" against. I see this beeing a problem, such as holes wearing inthe filter because of it. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacuuman on 12/08/05 at 12:27am This picture, taken by vacuum collector Fred Stachnik, shows the self cleaning filter and the spring thingy. http://automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/00ShowCollectionGETD.cgi?photoshow=15%20@Filter%20Closeup@HOOVERWHEELAWAY.jpg&dir=/COLLECTIONS/HOOVERWHEELAWAY There are aso some other pictures of the Z, and other more vintage Hoovers, here too. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/08/05 at 1:45am thanks for the pictures vacuuman! on the two samples I saw at Sears, the filters were much dirtier and more worn where the spring "flipped" over them. I do not know long the vacs had been there. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 12/08/05 at 9:41am I drove all the way to the city last night to actually get to a Sears store to 'play' with this thing. OH MY GOD, it's like pushing a wheelbarrow full of bricks. The Hoover engineers were either stoned or drunk when they thought up this piece of garbage. The machine at Sears had been demo'd a few times, but the never sold a single one. The suction was about as good as a Hoover model 65 from the mid '50's. Just terrible. The filter does revolve WHILE RUNNING, so the little thing that knocks some dirt off actually does NOTHING at all. The air is still trying to move through the clogged filter and holds the dust to the pleats. While the handle is collapsed, there's NO handle to pick up the cleaner with. Just Horrible. Whom do they think will buy it. Certainly they should set it next to the Dyson, it will help sell more Dysons. There's just no way a customer can pick it up, way too heavy. The ONLY person who would be considered a prospective owner, would be someone who owns a HUMMER car. They are used to behemoths. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 12/08/05 at 1:20pm There is a handle on this machine. If the user wants to put the machine away, carry to the car,etc., all one would do is collapse the vacuum and lift by the body-mounted handle. It is there if you just look. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/08/05 at 1:50pm I imagine the 100th Year Edition "Z" will commemorate HOOVER's birthday in 2007/2008. :D The "greater" HOOVER of the new millenium. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/08/05 at 3:26pm There are actually two ways to lift this giant. The handle built into the side of the cord/tool storage and the main control panel. Place the palm of your hand under the control panel to lift. I had the opportuninty to dismantle the HEPA filter to investigate how the self-cleaning function works. It's not only the small spring loaded wire clip that flicks the pleats as the filter rotates. The filter is internally divided into eight segments or partitions with eight nearly dime sized holes penatrating a soft foam seal that mounts between the filter and the housing. The seal is actually mounted to the filter. As the filter rotates, air flow is reversed and forced through from a small nozzle into each of the eight partitions that help dislodge debris. This reverse flow with the aid of the spring clip causes the fine dislodged debris to fall into the smaller left segment of the dirt collection bin. The two sides of the bin are divided from each other so the fine debris is not drawn back up into the filter. If you place the vacuum in the upright position without removing the hose or wand, you can actually hear the air being forced into each of the eight segments as it rotates. Surprisingly, the system seems to work well and should extend the life of the pleated filter for quite some time. Eventually the filter has to clog like all pleated filters do. The owners manual says to take the vacuum to a service agent for replacement of the filter, but I found it very easy to remove the six screws and slide the filter out for examination and/or replacement. I also examined the one-piece wooden brush roll and belt set-up. It doesn't use a cogged belt but rather a miniature serpentine looking belt with vertical grooves around the inside circumference of the belt. The small drive pulley of the motor has these grooves that mate up with the belt to keep it centered and from "walking" off the pulley. It's supposed to last the life of the machine and looks to be fiberglass reinforced. This vacuum works really well at cleaning and is very quiet "but" way to heavy and cumbursome for the average person to maneuver. The "wheelbarrow full of bricks" scenario Dual used fits it to a tee! You'll get a sore arm within a few minutes of using this Sherman tank. The weight distribution is really way off. The operator has the burden of holding all this weight during operation. My back was aching after several minutes of using this vacuum. If substantial changes aren't made to it's weight distribution, I see it failing in the near future. The Dyson DC-15 is MUCH easier to maneuver and not nearly as heavy to push. And the Z's air flow is weak compared to the Dyson. On the other hand, the electronic controls are very nicely done and you have a choice of two suction speeds, full agitation, gentle agitation, or bare floors. The diagnostic lights are a nice touch too. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/08/05 at 8:50pm I visited my local Sears today and talked with my friend in the vacuum departmart. I asked her how long the Z's have been in her store. She informed me a couple weeks. Can you believe not one single Hoover has been sold in that two week period!! Everyone that looks at it says the same thing. "It's TO HEAVY for me" and "to clumsy to maneuver". Right now it looks like the Hoover Z is going to be their biggest flop in the history of Hoover vacuums. To the contrary, the Dysons are selling like hot cakes with increased brisk sales for the Christmas season. They continue to be their number one upright vacuum for sales with the Kenmore canisters ranking number two. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/08/05 at 10:12pm "To the contrary, the Dysons are selling like hot cakes with increased brisk sales for the Christmas season. They continue to be their number one upright vacuum for sales with the Kenmore canisters ranking number two. " Bruce It's very rare to find a Sears store where any single brand vacuum outsells the Sears brand (WITH ONE EXCEPTION). Can you tell the Forum where the Sears store is located and how long it has been in business? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/08/05 at 11:05pm Carmine, It's located in Silverdale, Washington (Kitsap Mall) and has been there for 18+ years. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 2:07am Bruce: I don't have a map handy. Where is Silverdale in relation to Seattle/Bellevue Washington? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/09/05 at 2:34am Near Bremerton which is across the sound from Seattle (West). Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 3:18am Bruce: Danke Schone. Do you think this Sears and your one friend's account of the vacuum sales is true for all other Sears too? Before you answer, I'll relate true personal stories which I have for Sears and other retailers (like Best Buy in Woodbridge VA). Before the vacuum (appliance) sales people know who I am and my background, they tend to be upbeat about the sales of a particular make or model I ask about. Often times "exaggerated" the true sales. In part, they think that I may be a customer with interest to buy. In part, they can really speak only asa store employee with the store line. Once they learn who I am and my backgorund, and in particular if we have a friend or more in common, the story changes to a more truthful account. I presume this is the Sears where you bought your DC15? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 12/09/05 at 3:31am Bruce wrote:
I said the same thing in a previous post. Mike_W. wrote:
HOOVER has applied for a patent for this process. You can see the fine dust being blown into the smaller chamber. This does work. Do not let the appearance of the dirt on the filter deceive you, because air does get through. HOOVER says that the belt and filter will last the life of the machine under normal use. Since you mentioned Dyson, I will tell you that the DC15's are not selling well. I am intouch w/ people who sell them. The DC14 sells much better. Have you noticed that Dyson no longer shows the DC15 commercials and only shows the DC14 commercial. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/09/05 at 3:36am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
It's obvious each store, due to demographics, have different sales figures. The friend I know at Sears knows I purchased several vacuums over the years and would not exaggerate knowing I'm not in the market for another vacuum. I do agree that if the sales force didn't know me they would more than likely be more upbeat about a particular vacuum I seemed interested in. As an aside, she also told me the Roomba's are selling quite well at this time. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 4:24am "It's obvious each store, due to demographics, have different sales figures. As an aside, she also told me the Roomba's are selling quite well at this time. Bruce " I agree with these statements you've made. One more question: Did you ask about the DC15 sales at this Sears? If you have numbers, like X number sold since Oct 17, when the price dropped, please share. Actually 2: How long has your friend worked for Sears and in particular the vacuum sales? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 4:41am "Since you mentioned Dyson, I will tell you that the DC15's are not selling well. I am intouch w/ people who sell them. The DC14 sells much better. Have you noticed that Dyson no longer shows the DC15 commercials and only shows the DC14 commercial. " Mike W. Yes, I have Mike. The commercial I see for dyson is the DC14 All Floors. THis is not often. For example Oprah had the commercial yesterday. In comparison to other makers, so far this season the best, most , and newest commercials for vacuums on the TV especially during prime time is Oreck hands down. My hat is off to David. Remember just a few months ago his plant was devastated by Hurricane Katrina. He and company have come back running on all cylinders. (I think someone predicted this on the Forum.) :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/09/05 at 11:30am Mike & Carmine, how are the new Hoover Z's selling in your area of the country? Zero sales in two weeks indicates something is really wrong! Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 11:49am Bruce: You said: "Zero sales in two weeks indicates something is really wrong!" I know at least one big box store in my area that has not sold a dyson DC15 in the last 2 weeks as of this past Saturday. It's been around since May 2005 (7 months) and dropped the price by $100 (not counting additional sales). Should I conclude something is really wrong with the DC15? I can only speak for myself. And I don't know. It's too soon to tell. It takes awhile for the buzz to permeate the market place and Christmas is not the normal time of the year to launch a new vacuum. Consumers are focused on Christmas. The advertising campaign has not started. My guess is that HOOVER is waiting for all the HOOVER stores and Sears retailers nationwide to have the product for sale before advertising commences. I have not seen and used the HOOVER Z up close and personal. I plan to. The information I have about this new HOOVER is information from the Forum and others who have messaged me offline. I won't provide the offline information until I can corroborate it with reliable sources. Be patient. All things come in due time. The vacuum industry and particularly HOOVER have been around for 100 years. They will be around for a few more years. I suspect the HOOVER "Z" or a special very similar to it will still be here for the celebration of HOOVER's 100 Year Anniversary. That would be my prediction regardless of whether I personally like or dislike the vacuum. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 12:01pm BTW in the last 50 plus years I can't think of one new HOOVER vacuum product that was ever pulled off the market for any reason including low sales or high returns. Not one. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/09/05 at 12:15pm on Dec 8th, 2005, 12:26pm, Bruce wrote:This reverse flow with the aid of the spring clip causes the fine dislodged debris to fall into the smaller left segment of the dirt collection bin. Mike wrote: I said the same thing in a previous post. ***************************************** Don't worry Mike, no one is discrediting you in stating this. You didn't bother to explain how the Z's hepa filter is divided into eight segments or that the collection bin is divided into two separate sections. Since your explanation was very gereral and I doubt you disassembled the filter section of the Z, I thought I'd explain it in more detail for those interested. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/09/05 at 12:17pm Hi all, How does the math work with this? My basic question being, how does a machine like this get made and then released for market by a company that's laying off staff and re-locating varied segments of its operations in the name of lowered cost? It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that due to this machine's size and weight alone, it makes a difficult to market household item. As an instance, the 20-foot stretch hose purported to aid stair cleaning is not much of a boon when the issue remains that the machine still has to be physically moved to the next floor in need of cleaning. What, other than for purely experimental purposes, was the worth in the manufacture of this vacuum? If Hoover wanted to make the thing and avoid less egg on its face, the Z should have been sold as a commercial machine. Would Hoover fall in line for tax write-offs of good size by way of funds spent on development and production the Z? Thanks, Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/09/05 at 1:00pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
That tradition may change soon with the Z. Two weeks and not one sale at my local Sears?? The DC-15 Dyson started out much better than that. Even if the 15 fades away, Dyson still has its other models with their superior dirt separation and filtration. Don't get me wrong Carmine. I kind of like the technology and quietness of the new Z. It's just that the weight and bulkiness is to much to handle for a user friendly vacuum. I really wish you'd go and check one out and give me your opinion on it. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 1:02pm "Would Hoover fall in line for tax write-offs of good size by way of funds spent on development and production the Z? Thanks, Venson " There are two maybe three generally accepted accounting methods to expense research and development product costs for tax purposes. ONE: All in the year taken; or TWO: Amortized over an acceptable period of time that is generally accepted for that particular industry's product. THREE: A combination of the two above. Start up R & D expensed in part in the year taken and then amortized over an industry time standard once the product comes to market. Established companies like HOOVER would probably use methods 2 or 3. A new company like Rhooma IRobot probably uses 1. Now that it is a public company Rhooma will probably use number 3. Since I do not work for either company, I can't say for sure what method is used. I am providing an illustrative answer. I was suprised HOOVER launched the new product now. I would have thought it would have been launched in the Spring of 2006 to coincide with the Whirlpool takeover. There may be extenuating circumstances like patents or concerns about another maker coming to market first with the concept. Possibly a combination of both. I said it is a very bold move by HOOVER. It's not resting on its laurels even during the transition period. It is business as usual. Unfortunately in this day and time that includes layoffs and restructuring. Which gets back to what I said in previous posts. The vacuum industry does not stay the same for long. It is dynamic. It is constantly changing in a state of chaos and confusion. The companies that survive for the long term adapt, improvise, and overcome the dynamics. Maybe HOOVER views the "Z" from this perspective. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 1:07pm Bruce wrote:
"Even if the 15 fades away........." excerpted from your above post. I'll note that as an agreement with my prediction that it will be culled from several big box retailers due to poor sales. Thanks Bruce for wanting my review. In due time I will provide it. As I said, whether I like it or not, I think it will be around for a few years either in this exact form or a variation of it. BTW I would not say with your certainty that the DC15 did better in the first two weeks. I would say that it was not doing well after 5 months and the price was dropped in October. Has it helped? The jury is still out. Maybe a few more weeks possibly with another price drop?. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/09/05 at 1:27pm Thank you Carmine. Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 3:49pm You're welcome Venson. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/09/05 at 8:01pm on Today at 12:01pm, Carmine D. wrote: In the last 50 plus years I can't think of one new HOOVER vacuum product that was ever pulled off the market for any reason including low sales or high returns. Not one. "That tradition may change soon with the Z." Bruce Bruce: If it does change, HOOVER currently has 75 models ranging in price from $50 to $400. HOOVER is the largest maker and seller of vacuum cleaners in the USA. That is another HOOVER tradition that has not changed in 50 plus years despite all the competition both old and new and here and abroad. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/10/05 at 12:49am Mike W., wrt the DC15, what feature(s) of it are keeping it from selling? Has Hoover posted any life expectancy ratings for their pleated filter? And what makes it so heavy?? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 5:04am "How long has your friend worked for Sears and in particular the vacuum sales? " Carmine D. Bruce: Maybe you missed my second question. I wanted to know how long your friend at Sears has been selling vacuums/appliances. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 6:07am "This vacuum works really well at cleaning and is very quiet "but" way to heavy and cumbursome for the average person to maneuver. The "wheelbarrow full of bricks" scenario Dual used fits it to a tee! You'll get a sore arm within a few minutes of using this Sherman tank. The weight distribution is really way off. The operator has the burden of holding all this weight during operation. My back was aching after several minutes of using this vacuum. " Bruce "It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that due to this machine's size and weight alone, it makes a difficult to market household item. As an instance, the 20-foot stretch hose purported to aid stair cleaning is not much of a boon when the issue remains that the machine still has to be physically moved to the next floor in need of cleaning. " Venson Bruce: You'll recognize the above statements as yours about the HOOVER Z. I also quoted Venson's comments because they are similarly related and valid. I'll direct my observation and question to you Bruce since I know you own and like the Rainbow. I can't recall if Venson does. But I would like to know and feel free Venson to chime in. The Rainbow vacuum cleaner when filled with water for household cleaning weighs 32 pounds before adding the dirt and dust. I wonder how the Rainbow compares to the HOOVER Z for weight and household usage? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 12/10/05 at 8:40am You can't compare the Rainbow to the Hoover Z. The rainbow has and always will be a CANISTER on wheels. The Hoover is an upright, a behemoth, a monstrsity, you get the point. Hoover must be pushed everywhere. Rainbow's power nozzle alone does the cleaning, you just tug on the hose for the rainbow to follow. The Hoover doesn't follow, it must be pushed in its entirety. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 9:58am Dual et al: Since you were just born at the time (1962), you don't remember the HOOVER Dial's entrance on the US vacuum industry and market. Do you? One of the nice things about age is that I do. At the time it was as innovative as the HOOVER Z appears to be now. I haven't seen the HOOVER Z up close and personal (yet). But I think there are some similarities for both models. The HOOVER Dial was never meant to be marketed strictly for carpet use as was the typical upright at the time. The MSRP was almost twice the average price of HOOVER uprights with attachments. HOOVER still had a line of strictly upright cleaners: The Convertibles, both Standard and Deluxe (that could be used with attachments). THey had a lock tight hold on the upright market. But the attachments on the Convertibles were more for show and convenience. They really are not operational like the attachments on the Dial. HOOVER also had a line of canisters at the time all straight suction. THese were really for suction cleaning with attachments and homes with sparse carpeting. HOOVER was not trying to compete the Dial with its uprights and canisters. It was a special purpose vacuum for a limited target market. Ironically, in time and as the price dropped the HOOVER Dial turned out to be a mainstream household product. It was never intended to be such. It was intended to be for a select limited market and user demand. As a result, HOOVER Dial gave way to the upright with on-board tools. 3 cheers for HOOVER Dials. Fast forward to today and over 40 years from the Dial's entrance. Voila the HOOVER Z. It too, like the HOOVER Dial before, is for a select target market. Evidence its price. If I detect a certain latent maniacal tendency on your part Dual, I think I fully understand the reasons. The HOOVER Z is not intended to be a mainstream vacuum cleaner. It's a specialty vacuum for a select market. It is multi-faceted and purposed at a price. Who is the target market? My sensis HOOVER is looking at up scale buyers who want to spend alot of money on a bagless upright (i.e. dyson) or bagless canister (i.e. Rainbow). HOOVER has the mainstream vacuum market in the USA already. It always has and still does with or without the HOOVER Z. THe HOOVER Z is targeted for a special market. What I would call a niche vacuum product market. People who want a dual purpose vacuum in their home regardless of weight and price. THey don't mind. If history repeats itself and HOOVER has another Dial experience with the HOOVER Z all the better. Where does Consumer Reports place the HOOVER Z for product comparisons: Upright or canister? I think it fits both. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 10:18am "The rainbow has and always will be a CANISTER on wheels. " Dual Cyclone EUREKA As an aside, from a purist perspective, the above statement is false. It did not always have wheels. Rexairs sat straight up in the air like a fire hydrant planted firmly on the ground with no mobility or wheels. Wheels came much later in their evolution. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/10/05 at 12:33pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmine, I never asked her this question but know I've seen her at this sears for at least five years. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 12:47pm Bruce wrote:
Thanks Bruce. Ask your friend what the HOOVER rep is telling the Sears vacuum staff about the HOOVER Z. In particular who are the most likely prospective buyers to market this HOOVER product to. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/10/05 at 12:58pm Carmine, If you already know the answer, please share it with us if you wouldn't mind. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 12/10/05 at 1:19pm I would assume that Hoover intends this to be a limited edition as an attention getter. I also assume the intended audience is anyone willing to pay a premium to help keep Hoover manufacturing jobs in the US. I was hoping that Hoover would have developed something more like a Sebo upright - simple to use, excellent filtration, high quality, reasonable weight, etc. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 1:32pm Bruce wrote:
Bruce: I do not have the answer and this is a question best suited to answer by a HOOVER insider. If your friend has received the HOOVER Z demo, she would have learned alot of marketing information. Pros of the HOOVER Z and its target market. She should be able to answer the question I pose. If not, it is a question she can ask when she has the opportunity. It's on my list to ask along with some others. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/10/05 at 1:39pm "I was hoping that Hoover would have developed something more like a Sebo upright - simple to use, excellent filtration, high quality, reasonable weight, etc. " RAT That's a tough small market to enter and be profitable quickly. SEBO, Lindhaus, and Miele already are the dominant players and industry recognized leaders. But I would not be surprised if once the dust settles with the Whirlpool buyout, HOOVER takes your advice and markets both uprights and canisters in that high end premium mode. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/10/05 at 2:40pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmine, Next time I visit, I'll be sure to ask whether see had the opportunity of seeing a Hoover rep demo. That would be very useful and interesting information. I know if I were in her shoes I'd be asking many questions. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/11/05 at 6:12am The HOOVER Z made me go back into my archives to research my HOOVER literature for the Dial-A-Matic. The banner across the HOOVER 1100, the first Dial, reads: NEW KIND OF VACUUM CLEANER: HOOVER DIAL-A-MATIC. The context of the literature would fit the HOOVER Z in may respects. Quoting a Forum member: "What's old is new again." Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 12/11/05 at 10:12pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I'm referring to similar quality, filtration, permanent belt, and noise level to the Sebo. Hoover really needs to work on quality instead of low price. Their quality has been slipping as of late in the CR rankings. They used to be near the top. To survive they need to compete at the high end of the mass market brands rather than to slug it out with Dirt Devil for the $50 market. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacfan on 12/12/05 at 2:33am Was in Sears today so I stopped by the vacuum department and took a look at the new Hoover Z. I can't comment on the technology but I will say that they are very heavy. I found them way too heavy and I'm a 200 lb man. I can only imagine how your typical housewife will find them. The saleslady on duty, who saw me also checking out the Dysons, told me that the Z was Hoover's answer to Dyson. I don't know about that but she then offered the observation that they hadn't sold any yet and that she didn't expect to sell many because so far everyone who had tried one out was like me and thought they were too heavy. Two of my six vacuums ( a canister and an upright bagged WindTunnel) are Hoovers and I have been very happy with both. I hope Hoover didn't shoot themselves in the foot with this model. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/12/05 at 2:13pm Vacfan wrote:
My salesperson at Sears said the same thing regarding competition with Dyson. I feel the Z is going to bomb out if changes aren't made to it soon. The weight and balance is terrible compared to a Dyson. When you add insult by the expensive price tag, the average consumer will walk on by and look at the Dysons. Sears doesn't even have the Z displayed to catch prospective buyers attention. They almost look as if they are being hidden from customers sight. On the other hand, all the Dysons are out in plain sight and can't be missed when walking by the vacuum department. They have their own area of the vacuum department, completely away from every other brand. The Z is hidden over in the far corner as if it's an embarrassment. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/12/05 at 3:10pm RAT wrote:
RAT: You're right on the money. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/12/05 at 5:39pm Hi, My question for the day is where did they get "sport utility vacuum" from. It sounds like a snow mobile or something. Also, for those who didn't get the news, the Z's weight is 28 pounds. My Sears had it right in there with the other uprights and did not seem to be hiding it. Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/12/05 at 6:14pm guess_who wrote:
Perhaps because it is "multi" purposed. Perhaps because it targets people who fit the profile of SUV buyers: Youngish, well to do, athletic (climb up into and down out of the high standing SUV models), not concerned by high gas prices (or vacuum cost). Maybe consumers willing to pay more for something different and/or unique (like dyson, rainbow, Kirby buyers)? Economically and stylistically, they have arrived and make a statement with their purchases. 28 pounds is quite a handful for a domestic vacuum cleaner. 4 pounds more than Kirby and 4 pounds less than the Rainbow canister (when full and in operation). 3 pounds more than the Oreck Dutch Tech canister, Aerus Guardian, and Filter Queen. One pound more than the Riccar 1700 canister. It's in good company. The Z is not a daily user. The Z is for people who are on the go, have big houses with alot of living space, and who have limited time for household cleaning. Maybe once weekly or biweekly. But when they do, it's complete, top to bottom, thorough, and challenging. Similar to a physical workout in the gym. Maybe also the ideal vacuum for some esoteric home cleaning service businesses. Oreck has Merry Maids. HOOVER may have Super Maids! :D It's not just the product that makes or breaks it but how well it is marketed. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/12/05 at 7:15pm Hi Carmine, That's why I mentioned in an earlier post that it would best be marketed as a commercial vacuum. I'm sure that anyone would be impressed first glance if they saw someone from a cleaning service rolling one of these babies through their front door. Sort of a cheers and hurrah kind of thing when they see the big guns rolling in to wage war on dirt. Hmm. Maybe Hoover will give me a job one day . . . Regards, Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/12/05 at 9:42pm Wow, in the beginning, the Z was made out to be the ultimate answer to Dyson's competitive lineup...now it's being described to be some sort of niche product with the sole attention of attracting rich pretentious gluttonous pigs that hardly know the value of money. The Z is not the answer to Hoover’s prayers for a breakthrough product that would help boost the brand out of mediocrity. As for this whole status symbol thing, I strongly disagree that the Z would be a sign of success in your household...more like an experimental design exercise that should have never happened to begin with. Like the old lavender Japanese G-Force uprights, the Dysons are seen as high priced status symbols which fuse stylistic looks with form and function, and the advanced features that offer noticeable benefits to the consumer. The Hoover Z on the other hand still uses the same old primitive two stage barrier filtration, awkward size dimensions, and a gluttonous mass of over 28 lbs (that is insane for an upright). In turn, I strongly believe the Hoover Z will help sell more of the Dysons DC14/15's displayed near it in showrooms nationwide. In fact, my friends' parents went out to Sears last week to go purchase a new washer and dryer. They noticed a DC15 on display and decided to go look at it. They were rather intrigued with the ball design, and were deciding whether or not to purchase it. They also saw the new Z on display. They noted how clumsy the thing looked with its bulky design and 'wheelbarrow' handling as you pushed and pulled back and forth. They went home with a new washer, dryer, and Dyson DC15. Case in point, there is no way a person in his or her right mind would take this giant leviathan over a cheaper DC07, DC14 or the nimble and maneuverable DC15, as well as any other premium vacuum cleaner on the market. I thought Hoover was out to compete with Dyson, that's why they released the Fusion, right? So why did they turn around and design something completely different that is very heavy, cumbersome, and too complicated for its own good rather than design an even better Fusion for the premium segment, as word around here had hinted was going to happen? Why does Hoover persist on offering these really stupid gimmicks rather than design and bring to life a concept that can make vacuuming more efficient and beneficial? So far they have offered us the noisy Windtunnel, the redundant V2 dual brush rollers, and now the ridiculously unnecessary Z body design. Give us a break Hoover. Give us something that offers Form and REAL Function, not pointless gimmicks. Good Grief… ::) |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacfan on 12/12/05 at 10:44pm Hey, Bruce, we're nearly neighbors. The Sears store I go to is at the Tacoma Mall! I used to shop at the Silverdale Mall when I lived in Port Orchard but that was almost 10 years ago. I loved the Kitsap Peninsula but had to move to Lakewood about 10 years ago. By the way, the Sears store at the Tacoma Mall has the Hoover Z prominently displayed on an endcap right across the aisle from the Dysons. They're selling the yellow Dyson DC7 for $349 with another 10% off with a mail-in rebate. Is that a typical price around the country? I'll check back at Sears this weekend and see if they have sold any Z's. Between the price, the weight and the ungainly feel, I can't imagine the Z being a big seller, though. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/13/05 at 1:18am At our Sears, the Z's are hidden behind the vacuum asile endcaps; you need to turn down a tight asile before seeing them. The endcaps feature Dyson, Hoover uprights, and Sears Cannisters. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/13/05 at 2:59am "They're selling the yellow Dyson DC7 for $349 with another 10% off with a mail-in rebate. Is that a typical price around the country? " Vacfan This is normal for the retailers in the Washington DC metro area: The standard price for the DC07 is $349 and has been since mid October when dyson made the $100 price drop on the DC15. Depending on the retailer and the availability of the DC07 a serious buyer may even get 20 percent off the $349. BEST BUY doesn't carry the the DC07 and hasn't since June 2005. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/13/05 at 3:19am "They went home with a new washer, dryer, and Dyson DC15. " BEST BUY gives a free VAX upright away with the purchase of a washer and dryer. Since we like to compare cars and vacuums especially with the Z's SUV moniker, I'll offer my opinion on the subject. I own a FORD Explorer XLT. (I don't fit the SUV profile: Too OLD). I looked at the EXPEDITION when it first came out. Price was off the radar. Size was like a bowling alley. No way you can park it in the city or typical public garages. I didn't buy it instead buying the smaller Explorer. But I did and still notice the huge quantity of Expeditions everywhere I go. On occasion I talk with the owners and ask how they like the vehicles. They tell me all the faults with it as above: Price, gas consumption, parking and then say they love them. People are like the fingers on your hand: All different. I don't think (and I still haven't seen the Z up close and personal) the HOOVER Z will be a mass market seller. Now that's an epiphany. But the HOOVER Z will appeal to a few select vacuum buyers and home owners who will buy them and enjoy them. If HOOVER's sales in dollars (not units) replicate the typical bell curve for sales marketing, the Z will certainly define and target the right side of the curve. Since HOOVER already has a nicely developed left side (lo end) and middle of the bell curve (average), the Z should shape out the right side (hi end) of the curve in time. And HOOVER has all the time it needs with a new lease on life starting in spring 2006 after it's acquired by Whirlpool. As RAT pointed out, the long term objective for HOOVER is to rekindle HOOVER's perception of quality for its vacuum products by buyers and users. If the Z does this and exudes a sense and reality of a quality vacuum product, it will succeed in meeting the goal. We'll see if the Z "rises" to the occasion. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/13/05 at 3:30pm Source: Wall Street Journal: Dec 8, 2005 Personal Journal Page D4 Power Information Network, a division of J.D.Power & Associates HOT OFF THE LOT: HOTTEST MODELS J.D. Power tracks and reports on the automobile industry. In its latest monthly sales data: Nov1-30, 2005 Power reported the 10 most popular sellers. The criteria for measuring is the number of days the vehicles are on the lot before sale. (Interesting?) Vehicles have to have more than four months of sales. ONE SUV made the top 10. The Land Rover Range Rover Sport was number 7 on the list. Price is $63,565. The buyer profile of the SUV: Female: 26.2 %; Male: 73.8%; Ages up to 35: 27.7%: Ages 36 to 55: 58.3% and over 56:14%. Since the HOOVER Z took us down this course on consumer profile and SUV, I thought I share the expert's statistics. It seems for the most recent J.D Power report on top 10 auto sales for the month of November, the SUV buyers' market wield alot of clout and buying power. BTW the number of Range Rover Sport vehicles sold since July 2005 when it was launched through the end of November 2005 is 7,936. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 12/13/05 at 4:58pm If they want the SUV market, they need to add a remote control with joystick and drive system. I think Hoover believes many people have purchased Dysons because of the way they look. While it may be true, form and function are both important. While the Z looks interesting, it does not function properly. It is heavy and awkward to use. Self-cleaning the filter is not a substitute for keeping the dirt off the filter in the first place. It's far better to use a filtrete bag than to have a lousy bagless dirt collection system. They could have at least used a single cyclone to keep some of the dirt off of the filter in the first place. Hoover's strength is their top rated Windtunnel design. They could have improved it by reducing noise, adding better filtration, permanent belts and a new look. Instead they created a FrankenVac. I feel bad for the good people of Newton, Iowa who's jobs may depend on the success of this beast. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/13/05 at 5:51pm RAT: ..............and North Canton, Ohio. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 12/13/05 at 9:29pm "ONE SUV made the top 10. The Land Rover Range Rover Sport was number 7 on the list. Price is $63,565. The buyer profile of the SUV: Female: 26.2 %; Male: 73.8%; Ages up to 35: 27.7%: Ages 36 to 55: 58.3% and over 56:14%. " This is a status symbol only. Unless you plan to go off roading it is no better than many others in it's class. How many buy a vacuum as a status symbol. Visit the most prestigious homes and you do not see the vacuum sitting out in the open while the Rover may very well be parked out front. Fools and their money are soon parted. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacuuman on 12/13/05 at 10:18pm Some people buy the SUVs such as the Explorer, or a Surburban for the room inside. Some SUVs are very roomy inside. But we don't have a SUV, just a minivan and a small car. But back to the new Hoover. I would also have liked to see hoover improve their current best models instead of coming out with what I see as a highly impractical, and very bulky new model. The Windtunnel is a much easier to use vacuum that the Z. And the WT ia also much more powerfull, all at a lower price. I hope Hoover is ready to either do some major changes to, or just let the Z go. I have a very hard time seeing this becoming a successful model. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacfan on 12/14/05 at 1:12am I too wish that Hoover had spent their time and money improving their WindTunnel line which I think is the best of the under $500 vacuums. Mine is 5 years old now and I will probably be looking to replace it in a couple of years. In addition to the things that others have mentioned I would like to see a two-speed motor (or variable speed control like my Sharp) and, if possible, a retractable cord. Hopefully when Whirlpool takes over they will reconcentrate Hoover's energies on their core business. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/14/05 at 7:48am Perhaps HOOVER will connect with an SUV maker and the two will work out a business arrangement and marketing agreement. When a customer buys an SUV, the HOOVER Z is gifted with the purchase. Sure beats a play toy vacuum. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dainbramaged on 12/24/05 at 4:05am I doubt it would sell as a commercial vacuum. Asking someone to lug around a 28lb vacuum in addition to their usual kit (all day, every day) would be a terrible burden. Despite the poor quality, high price and deceptive warranty, Orecks remain popular with the commercial crowd, if only because of their light weight. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 12/24/05 at 5:57pm Hi dainbram, My idea for pushing the "Z" as a vacuum for commercial is purely hinged on the fact that it sort of looks the part -- namely a gadget that requires an expert to use it. Loosely quoting the late, great W.C. Fields -- If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with you know what . Happy Holidays, Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 12/27/05 at 5:53am Bruce wrote:
Both Z's are on the endcap facing people as they walked through the store. There is also a banner on the floor that people can see as they walk by. So, no they are not hidden. I also mentioned that most vacuum cleaners sold in "big box" stores will have lower price tags after their introduction. You can see this w/ other products also. The Z will have a lower price tag in the future, if not already. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 12/27/05 at 11:55am Mike_W. wrote:
So yes Mike, this may be the case at your local Sears but not at mine. The Z's continue to be placed on an inside shelf hidden from view as one walks by the vacuum department. All the Dysons remain on the end cap away from all the other vacuums and in full view to patrons as they walk by the department. It's strange why you haven't given us your opinion of this machine to date. I think we all were waiting for your critique but haven't seen any mention of the Z's other than your initial statement at the beginning of this thread. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/27/05 at 12:57pm The HOOVER Z is a Sears exclusive make and model. I would bet that sooner and not later the HOOVER Z will receive the premier display space at all Sears stores nationwide. I would also bet that HOOVER will not pay Sears for the space. Sears is an ideal venue for the HOOVER Z models. Just as the FUSION and Wal*Mart are a perfect match. The FUSION price has not been dropped or discounted by Wal*Mart during the Holiday sales season. To me this is an indication that the FUSION sales are brisk and consistent. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 12/27/05 at 1:15pm At our Sears the Z's were recently moved out of an obscure asile position onto a special white platform at the side of the entrance to the vacuum zone. They are now easilly seen by all. As for the Fusion, some of our Walmarts have moved them to endcaps. However, vacuums on the endcaps are "churned" often so I don't know how long the Fusions will stay there. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 12/27/05 at 1:22pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Premier spaces are always payed for........FACT |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/27/05 at 5:24pm Matt: I respectively disagree with you in this particular case. As a SEARS exclusive model, the HOOVER Z will always get the premier Sears display space free. That's not to say that at some point in the future Sears will not displace the Z and charge another maker for the same display space. But as long as the HOOVER Z is a SEARS exclusive, the HOOVER Z is rent free. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/01/06 at 11:10am Not just another HOOVER upright but the HOOVER Z, the last word in vacuums. And the ad leader for the the first day of the new year 2006. The premier advertising space of the Sunday newspaper, the Sunday PARADE, features a full sized page by SEARS for the HOOVER Z. Research shows that even people who do not read the Sunday news, always read the PARADE either on Sunday or a few days after. This Sunday's PARADE is the most read and most popular PARADE of the year since it includes the nation's top high school football players. Conspicuously featured on the very last page in full living color is the brand new HOOVER Z, exclusively at SEARS. Bruce, if you go back to your local SEARS, check the HOOVER Z and its location. I'd bet it gets the high rent space now after this ad (BTW, HOOVER is not paying for it either). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 01/01/06 at 12:11pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Do you know this for sure, or are you hypothesizing? What is your source? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/01/06 at 12:38pm Matt: I know and you know I won't reveal my sources on this one for all the Forumers. That's the reason the HOOVER sources are MY HOOVER sources. HOOVER is not paying for the display space for the HOOVER Z as long as the HOOVER Z remains a SEARS exclusive. That's all you and others need to know. Everything is negotiable in a business arrangement. EVERYTHING. Even space. Just because one maker pays and pays a set amount for a set time, does not mean another maker pays and/or pays the same amount. EVERYTHING is a negotiation process. EVERYTHING. HAPPY NEW YEAR! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by DC15 Owner on 01/01/06 at 2:08pm With the Wal Mart and Sears exclusive models we most likely will not be reading any customers reviews on Amazon. Good thinking Hoover. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/01/06 at 5:17pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hi Carmine, That first statement you wrote almost sound as if you've test driven the new Z. I'd still very much like your opinion on it after you give it a try. I plan on going to Sears later this week and check out the vacuum department. I would have suspected they would eventually visually advertise this model more aggressively. Sounds like they are. Happy New Year!! Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 4:34am "Hi Carmine, That first statement you wrote almost sound as if you've test driven the new Z. I'd still very much like your opinion on it after you give it a try." Bruce THe comment: "HOOVER Z, the last word in vacuums".... is one I've used before. No, not yet. I just became aware (from the ad) that the HOOVER Z uses the tested and proven HOOVER WT Technology. Undoubtedly, this will guarantee a Consumer Reports rating of very good to excellent for rug performance. (BTW these should be coming soon). It also explains many poster's comments about the ease and effectiveness of the HOOVER Z's rug performance. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by tiger21 on 01/03/06 at 8:18pm Mike W. said in one of the earlier remarks that he thought the price would come after the initial introduction. I don't think it willanytime soon. As far as being a Sears exclusive, it is not. The Z400 is selling at $399.00 and the upscale Z700 sells for $499.00.The 700 comes with additional featureslike LED headlights, extra 16- inchcleaning wand, gentle brush setting, additional attachments and a pet hair cleaning tool. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/04/06 at 3:31am Hello Tiger: To my knowledge, only Sears sells the HOOVER Z now. Are you referring to other retailers and/or HOOVER-MAYTAG stores when you say the HOOVER Z is not exclusive to Sears? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by tiger21 on 01/04/06 at 7:50am Yes |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 01/05/06 at 1:32pm tiger21 wrote:
I did not put an exact time on the price decrease, but it will happen. The Z has already been on sale a few weeks after its introduction. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/07/06 at 10:47pm "HOOVER does it again. 100 years and still going strong. Pure marketing and product genius. It's gonna WOW you! Step aside vacuum lovers, make way sweeper fans, watch out breathless bagless, take note door to door vacuum sales, clear a wide path for the USA VACUUM CLEANER CHAMPION: HOOVER. THe legendary name in floorcare does it again. It's going to knock out the competition. Carmine D." *********************************** Yep, more and more it sounds like Hoover has a dead horse on it's hands. Actually Carmine, I think the Z is heading towards failure real soon. The only "WOW" we're going to say is "Wow, look how fast that thing was pulled from the market". I went back to Sears tonight and talked with the salespeople again. It's been nearly six (6) weeks since the Z's hit Sears. I asked again how many they sold in that time period. Can you believe they only sold FOUR (4) and one was already returned. LOL Three sales in nearly six (6) weeks indicates failure in my book. To top it off, I learned a little inside fact that Hoover is now offering the salesforce an incentive of $30 for each Z they sell. This would be on top of their normal Sears commission. Can you believe that folks?? That's how bad sales are right now on the infamous Hoover Z!! I'm going to make a prediction that the Hoover Z will be one of the biggest failures in history. Right now both models are on sale through tonight for $474.99 and $379.99 and will go back up to their normal prices of $499 and $399 tomorrow. Yep... The genuine HOOVER Z is "pure marketing and product genius". "It's going to knock out the competition." L O L I may have the LAST laugh on this one Carmine. ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 3:26am Bruce: There must be something about the amount of $30. Doesn't dyson pay that to dealers for each dyson repair that's done under warranty? It appears Dual is finally proven right. HOOVER is copying dyson! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/08/06 at 3:31am Carmine, I was referring to sales not repairs of Hoover Z's. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 3:44am Bruce: Well, if that's the case, then it's 3 less new dysons sold! And a success rate among new buyers of 75 percent. Sounds good after just 6 weeks and for the most technologically innovative vacuum product on the market today (with 2 patents pending). Am I correct in my presumption that your friend at SEARS has received training from a HOOVER rep on the new Z? AND the HOOVER Z is prominantly displayed for all vaccum customers to see and demo? Did your friend tell you who are the likely buyers for the new HOOVER Z and/or at least the target market that HOOVER is going after? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 01/08/06 at 1:35pm "HOOVER does it again. 100 years and still going strong. Pure marketing and product genius. It's gonna WOW you! Step aside vacuum lovers, make way sweeper fans, watch out breathless bagless, take note door to door vacuum sales, clear a wide path for the USA VACUUM CLEANER CHAMPION: HOOVER. THe legendary name in floorcare does it again. It's going to knock out the competition. Carmine D." *********************************** As the impartial observer who does not root for or against any of these products, have you had the chance to check this one out yet for your awaited impartial review? You seem to have had plenty of time daily to keep up with all the Woodbridge VA. dyson happenings. and yet no time to check out the unit that is going to knock dyson out? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 1:43pm The preview was planned for this weekend in Richmond VA. Unfortunately, it conflicted with a higher authority: First Friday and Saturday of the month. Two of my colleagues went instead along with my $100 certificate for dinner for two at a Restaurant in Richmond. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 01/08/06 at 1:47pm Carmine, did they bring you back a doggy bag?. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/08/06 at 1:49pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I was not able to speak to the same salesperson but I imagine they have received some type of coaching in selling these beasts if Hoover is forking over an additional $30 per sale. The location of the Z's have moved only slightly, but still at the very rear of the vacuum department. There are no special ad banners or other ploys to get attention either. The Dysons remain all the way at the front near the isle in their usual position. One can't pass the department without seeing them. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 1:55pm old-timer wrote:
I'm lucky if I get a vacuum bag! Actually, both tried to persuade me to take my dear Wife and go to Richmond. But one of the parish priests was ill, and the other had an engagement with the Bishop after the daily Mass on Saturday. The deacon was en route back from Florida so I had the weekend spiritual duty. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/08/06 at 1:56pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Don't forget they have 90 days to make up their minds. Besides buyers remorse setting in, their backs may give out before then. LOL Bruce |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 2:47pm "I'm going to make a prediction that the Hoover Z will be one of the biggest failures in history." Bruce Failure is a very subjective term. You consider 3 sales in 6 weeks in one SEARS store a failure. I think it's a good start. If all the SEARS stores nationwide have that rate (1 sale every 2 weeks right out of the chute) for a brand new, innovative, different model of HOOVER vacuum that is not advertised, what are the total sales to date? Still think it's a failure? If I were a betting man (I am and have been) I'd say the HOOVER Z will be in nationwide stores after the DC15 Ball is pulled and dropped from store shelves. (I'm not counting internet sales for either model). I'm talking about brick and mortar store stock and sales. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/08/06 at 3:10pm The z has been around more thatn 2 weeks. Other than your predujice, how does 3 vac sales = a record and 3 Dyson sales = complete failure? BTW, The DC07 is alive and well in all my local Best Buy's althought they have been drastically reduced by $20. At least that is drastic to Carmine. It has the enc cap beside DC14. Had to search for the VAX and hoover. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 3:43pm In Woodbridge VA, the new DC07's are $349 at most retailers before other discounts (20 percent at LNT and BB&B). I've heard Home Depot in Woodbridge VA the everyday selling price of the DC07 for $279. I've not confirmed that for myself in person. I've heard the store is selling it out and won't carry the DC07 any longer. Ironically the BEST BUY in Woodbridge VA, after not carrying the DC07 for 6 months, reintroduced it at $369, more than other retailers in the area. I suspect this will be sold cheaper too. I've been told that the best selling dyson at that store is and has been the DC14. I suspect the DC07 came back because the DC15 will soon get scrubbed. That's my opinion and I have no inside information to that effect. I'm prefacing this remark with the caveat that I have not seen the The HOOVER Z in person. THe HOOVER Z is a specialty vacuum (IMHO). It will not be a mainstream US seller. It is a "niche" vacuum. It rounds out a product line that already includes 75 various models of full sized canisters and uprights. It's not meant to supercede any other models or compete with any of the other HOOVER canisters and uprights. It's in a category of its own. Specialty. THe HOOVER Z buyers (and users) are not concerned by the weight, bagless feature, oddity of style and uncommon electronic controls. They are buying this vacuum for its unique function (two vacuums in one). If it becomes more mainstream down the road, HOOVER will be thrilled. If not, it will stay niche and sell to target market of buyers who want and like the two in one feature. I suspect it will be tested in the next round of vacuums by Consumer Reports or in a special feature. I also suspect it will get excellent grades for carpet cleaning and performance because it has the tried and true HOOVER WT technology. But we'll have to wait and see. In any case, regardless of its grades and sales, it will be around in this form and function fro several years. At least as part of the HOOVER 100 year celebration next year. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/08/06 at 7:40pm Why does hoover need 75 models of vacuums, many of which are almost identical? If they ever get it right maybe they can ditch 74 of the models. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 7:51pm I can't answer for HOOVER but I have my opinions. Economies of scale. One size does not fit all. Exclusive models for certain retailers: Like the FUSION for Wal*Mart and the HOOVER Z for SEARS; Commercial models sold exclusively through OFFICE DEPOT and HOME DEPOT; Commercial models sold through GSA for government buyers and users; etc etc.................... Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 8:02pm And of course it goes without saying that HOOVER markets an array of canisters from low end to high, bagless and bagged, uprights too... Recall I said that in my own 50 plus years of profesional experience I can't remember a single solitary model that HOOVER pulled because of poor sales and returns, And I don't think there were any betweem 1907 and 1949 when I got into the business. That's not a record of a company that's doesn't get it right the first time around. Like HOOVER or not, it's 100 year history in the US vacuum industry is a legacy that its employees past present and future can be proud of. Carmine D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/27/06 at 8:02pm Entertainment Tonight aired the HOOVER Z 700 SEARS Commercial today. With more emphasis on the HOOVER Z and less on the SEARS. This commercial and the new HOOVER Z will arouse consumer interest and sales. It's a winner! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/27/06 at 8:06pm "I'm going to make a prediction that the Hoover Z will be one of the biggest failures in history." Bruce First HOOVER knocked off dyson 2005 Holiday sales with one of the best and most honest vacuum ads ever made for TV. Then HOOVER produces and markets a new concept in vacuuming the all new Z 700. If that's failure, somebody redefined the word and forgot to tell Mr. Daniel Webster. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by It_Sucks on 01/27/06 at 8:13pm http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7631459&type=product&id=1130986533094 Hmmmmm.... |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by PKguy on 01/27/06 at 8:47pm One word I would not use to describe that vac is "sleeK", it's anything but sleek LOL, Slick maybe |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 01/27/06 at 10:10pm Since Hoover is having a difficult time selling the Z's they are now going to give Best Buy and other big box stores a crack at it. LOL Wonder if Hoover will give everyone $30 for selling one like they do with Sears? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by DC15 on 01/27/06 at 11:51pm Whatever happened to the Sears exclusive...... |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 3:29am According to the BEST BUY specs on the HOOVER Z 900 the weight is 18.75 pounds. Not 30. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 3:35am DC15 wrote:
With the Electrolux line dropped from BEST BUY, upright canister, tank, and stick, the HOOVER Z 900 fits in nicely. 2 in 1 vacuum for $500. If a vacuum buyer comes in for a canister, or with equal rug and floor household cleaning needs, the HOOVER Z fits the bill. I guess you forgot that BEST BUY was the retailer that talked James Dyson into launching his vacuum exclusively with their stores. It took months but eventually other retailers carried the line too. Why not? If it sells and makes the big box money, isn't that the purpose of retail business? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 3:57am Bruce wrote:
The HOOVER Z is a niche vacuum. It's not meant to have alot of sales. It's for a trageted market of a few selected vacuum buyers. $30 to sell. So what? Get over it. It's a marketing cost to demo and sell. Worry about the $30 dyson pays to fix the deluge of repairs under warranty for your favorite high priced brand. Will that be enough to work down the back log? Is expanding the HOOVER Z especially in retailers that carry the high priced bagless, a sign of failure for HOOVER and the Z? To the contrary, it's a sign of failure for the high priced bagless. If the latter were truly the bread and butter of the retailers why would the retailers want to sell the HOOVER Z? Here's an innovative thought: Because the high priced bagless is fading and sales are waning, especially during the busy Holiday season. THe HOOVER Z compliments the HOOVER product line and retailers vacuum sales, especailly at the $400 and $500 price points. It is not THE HOOVER LINE like the expensive bagless. The Z is one of 75 vacuums in HOOVER's line up. It doesn't need record sales to survive. It's not a mainstream vacuum product. It's a niche vacuum for a few selected esoteric vacuum buyers. It's a cross over vacuum. Upright and canister. There isn't another product on the market NOW that competes with it. No wonder retailers like BEST BUY and SEARS, upscale as some like to say, want it. Will the product design succeed? Time will tell. Based on HOOVER's 100 year record in the industry, and with past performance as the best indicator of future success, predicting failure is a failed prediction. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/28/06 at 8:04am Dyson offers discounts after 3 years. Hoover Z is discounted after 3 months. Good marketing by Hoover and failure by Dyson. What kind of mentality is that Carmine? Dyson knocked Hoover to the canvas in a few rounds. Hoover brought in two more contenders. it is now 1 Dyson against 75 Hoovers. Dyson is still standing and Hoover"s heavy weight is staggering in the first round. Hoover is looking for a new manager while it clings to the ropes just to stand. Mean while on the side lines the Cosell of vacuums continues to offer lip service (which is cheap) but of little value. How many rounds until Dyson sends the KO punch? Time will tell. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 10:51am You're punch drunk. Wake up, smell the coffee. That's your line isn't it? Dyson is down on the canvas, and counted out. The fight is over. Get the smelling sauce and ice swell. You lost. It's time to throw in the towel and look for a lesser opponent and market. Say like Canada. Although I think the CVS market will clean your clock too. Just like HOOVER and Oreck did here. Stop bashing HOOVER and Oreck. You're beloved dyson is hemorrhaging blood, vacuum stores are inundated with warranty repairs and FAX machines are humming with the latest service problems. Dyson's gig in the US is up. The wedding party is over. RIP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 01/28/06 at 11:37am It's still amazing that the ear-busting $80 Hoover Tempo manages to clean rugs and stuff as well as the Z or most any Hoover (and outdoes most of the quieter Euro models to boot!). Will be interesting to see how long the Z's hold up in terms of motor life, et all. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by DC15 on 01/28/06 at 2:26pm Whatever Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 3:12pm VacOMatic wrote:
AND the HOOVER Tempo for $50 is constructed from the same high impact ABS thermoplastic as all the the more expensive dysons. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by ArtieV on 01/28/06 at 3:59pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
AND, the HOOVER Tempo is one of the three (3) HOOVER models rated by the most recent (January) CR review as "Not recommended." Also Not Recommended, due to either breaking consistently and / or leaking dust were the HOOVER Fusion, HOOVER Duros canister and Dirt Devil Dynamite. CR also noted "no unusual dyson repairs" in their 2 year repair history, but did not have enough data yet to include dyson in their frequency-of-repair chart. ;) Art |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 7:25pm Art: Thanks for the update. I referenced the Tempo for a particular reason. A Forum poster stated that the high priced bagless upright is special because it uses high quality plastics. The same plastics are used in the $50 HOOVER Tempo and most other current day vacuum makes and models. Time will tell if $400 and and more buys better quality from a big box retailer than the less expensive makes and models. CR is very careful and guarded (read alot of data and analyses) before it publishes repair and maintenance results. I expect it will be coming. All in due time. BTW, didn't you have dyson brush roll problems under warranty? How's it been working? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/28/06 at 7:27pm Wheel of Fortune had the HOOVER Z TV ad tonight. And the ad ran back to back. That makes 2 major TV networks in two days with the HOOVER Z ad. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by MrRogers on 01/28/06 at 10:57pm Carmine, I was the one that had problems with the bristles breaking off of the brushroll on my Dyson DC15. However, with a quick phone call to the Dyson hotline, I was able to obtain a new brushroll(s) free of charge. As of the moment, the bristles have stopped breaking off the brush roll for a week now, for I have not seen anymore red bristles mixed in the debris canister. For a while I was thinking that Dyson should have used softer bristles, but with that, would come weak agitation. I really don't think that the typical American homeowner in his or her right mind would have the kind of carper that I have in my dorm room in their homes. This is really low grade, low profile looped nylon berber carpeting; and this stuff isn't soft, it's hard. It's the kind of carpet that is more suitable for strait suction commercial vacuums, like the NSS M-1 Pig canister, or uprights with soft brush roll bristles like the Hoover Conquest. The brushroll on the DC15 was designed with softer household carpeting in mind. In my humble opinion, the Dyson uses higher quality plastics because it feels thick and flexible, not stiff and brittle. If I were to hit my Dyson upright with any large stainless steel tool, it would show white stress/stretch marks, and not crack. I believe that if I were to do the same to another mainstream vacuum cleaner, you see instant breaking of the plastics. I feel that if the plastic shell for my parents Rainbow E2 power nozzle were made from the same plastics as my DC15, it would not be cracked around the top screw ports from having a box of christmas decorations dropped on it last year. However, I must say that plastics on all vacuum cleaners, ranging from the archaic Regina Houskeepers found in thrift stores, to your modern day Hoover Z's and DC15's are good enough to last 20+ years under normal use. However, I feel that the Dyson can handle more abuse. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 3:46am Thank you. I was not referring to you or the bristles. Art purchased a new dyson (DC07 I believe) and the brush roll stopped revolving during normal use due to the dirt build up in the brush roll bearing plate ends (plastic by the way). Art posted about the problem here on the Forum. I figure that is one of the reasons he said CR did not find any unusual dyson problems during 2 years of ownership BUT CR has incomplete data for repair frequency for dyson. Art had the wherewithal and skill to repair the brush roll problem himself. Of course this violates the warranty which mandates return to the manufacturer or warranty dealer. Risky business if Art was not successful. I suppose Art was prepared to suffer the consequences, in part, because he didn't want to be without a vacuum for 2 or more weeks by shipping it back to the maker and waiting. So he took the matter into his own hands. I wonder how many owners do that? And if buyers consider this a normal occurence for new $400-$500 vacuums under warranty. IMHO it is a design and function flaw inherent in the DC07 and 14 brush rolls. The brush roll is still not not acceptable after 3 plus years on the market. Getting back to your problem which is somewhat different. Quality control measures should have caught the loose bristles whether the brush is outsourced or made in the Malaysia plant. More than likely it's outsourced. Whatever the case may be, what does that say about the quality control over the highest priced bagless components? (Hint: The motor is the same as the PANASONIC one fan motor in its $50 upright at BEST BUY). Forum posters report that MANY of the new highest priced bagless units are packed and shipped with problems including missing tools, instruction manuals and the like. Again all these are quality control issues as opposed to Art's problem which is form and function. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 4:10am "In my humble opinion, the Dyson uses higher quality plastics because it feels thick and flexible, not stiff and brittle. " It's nice that you qualified the statement with "opinion." One's thinking and feelings are not always based on factual research and findings but merely intuitive supposition. Can you imagine what it would be like if we were to believe human intuitive suppositions as truth and facts? It would be like putting a jig saw puzzle together that had all the wrong mix of pieces in the box! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 10:16am HOOVER Z is advertised in the PARADE section of the Sunday newspapers. (Most read part of the weekly newspaper). I'm lovin it! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by ArtieV on 01/29/06 at 10:38am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hi, Carmine. Currently it's working fine. "Art purchased a new dyson (DC07 I believe) and the brush roll stopped revolving during normal use due to the dirt build up in the brush roll bearing plate ends (plastic by the way). " The end plates on my Dial and Celebrity brush rolls are metal, but have the same little gap where the brush turns. However I never ever experienced a dust buildup in those 2 machines. I plan to call the Dyson hotline tomorrow, if my seasonal depression clears momentarily :-/ with a number of specific questions. I'll report back in the original thread (dyson dysfunction) regarding the outcome. Art |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by DC15 on 01/29/06 at 10:55am Dyson has been advertised in the Parade many of times. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by MrRogers on 01/29/06 at 11:45am Well, its so nice that you can continue on with your anti-Dyson crusade with your factual statements, Carmine. I hear more biased rhetoric here than on The Fox News Channel. At least I admitted to my words being opinionated. You just storm out with your predictions of failure and dismay for Dyson. Perhaps your words will be taken in with more consideration if you post some documented information, not local area heresay. Where can I find all this data and info that states that 'Dyson is down on the canvas'? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/29/06 at 12:35pm Carmine is still po'd because as a consultant for the big H he recommended that they not buy into the Dyson when given the opportunity. BTW, Kohl's has the Hoover Empire advertised at $89.99. Regularly sells at $199.99. How is that for desperation? Looks like Dyson's $50 motor costs almost as much as the complete Empower, yet Carmine continually harps on the high cost of the Dyson. You have to pay more to get more. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 12:51pm You're not only punch drunk but behind the times and misinformed. THe HOOVER EmPower (not Empire?) has been on sale at Kohl's for $89.95 since before the 2005 Holiday season. BTW at the Woodbridge store, the HOOVER EmPower shares the pemium floor space with the high priced bagless. It uses a washable teflon coated filter (patented by HOOVER). I have never been a consultant for HOOVER. NEVER. I had no input into HOOVER's decision to decline dyson's offer. I would tell buyers without any reservations to buy the $50 PANASONIC bagged vacuum rather than the DC07 and DC14 for $400-$500 (which uses the same PANASONIC one fan motor). BTW that motor has been around for over 30 years. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 1:08pm "yet Carmine continually harps on the high cost of the Dyson. You have to pay more to get more. " HARDSELL Vacuum industry professionals in the USA and Canada have been critical of the high priced bagless prices using words like "pricey" and "overpriced." I include myself in that category (with over 50 years of experience in the business). Vacuum professionals on this Forum have also. Not just me, although you like to target me. I can name 3 other vacuum professionals with years in the business who post regularly on this Forum who share the same opinion. And one poster from the UK who does also. I have never believed that any of the of dyson models were worth their retail prices and in most cases their sales' prices. Apparently I was right in at least 2 of the 4 models. THe DC11 for $499.99 was pulled off the US market after 9 months (at BEST BUY even sooner due to the record number of returns). The DC15 price was lowered (permanently) in price by $100 by all US retailers within 4 months of launch (which I predicted several weeks before it happened). Several exclusive retailers who carried the high priced bagless frequently give 20 percent off the suggested retail prices (Bed Bath & Beyond and Linens and Things) on regularly advertised sales (in violation of dyson MAP). Apparently they agree with the vacuum industry professionals too. My recommendation (if a buyer wants a dyson) is to wait for one of those retailers to run their regular monthly advertised sales. You can purchase a DC07 at 20 percent off the regular $400 (discount of $80), the DC14 at 20 percent off the $439 ($88 discount and a better buy than the DC07 which will be obsolete) and the DC15 at 20 percent off $499 ($100 discount). Also if you mention these retailer sales to competing retail stores like SEARS, BEST BUY, and Target, I suspect these stores will at least match or beat the price (maybe add a gift card for $25 or $50 with the purchase) to cement the deal. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 1:18pm DC15 wrote:
I disagree. In the newspaper yes, not the Sunday PARADE section. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 1:26pm MrRogers wrote:
Down on the canvas and counted OUT! KO'ed by Oreck, HOOVER, and a host of less expensive bagless at all the major retailers in the USA. Maybe the high priced bagless will do better in a weaker market like Canada? But frankly I think the central vacuum systems have the Canadian market locked in. One of the reasons, in part, that Fantom failed miserably there. I think dyson makes a very good bagless vacuum but not worth $400-$500. What do you get for the high price: An outsourced $50 PANASONIC ONE fan motor, mediocre rug performance, the same product quality as the $50 brands, and a 2 YEAR limited warranty. For $400 to $500? Not worth it in my opinion. People don't have to believe me and/or follow my advice. It's their money. THey are free to buy what they like, when they like, and from whom they like. Carmine D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/29/06 at 1:32pm Your opinion of something that you do not use is not better (perhaps not as good) as the many satisfied Dyson users. BTW, it seems that the anti Dyson crowd consists of shops that can not sell or repair Dysons. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 1:38pm I personally and professionally hope dyson had and has record vacuum sales in 2005 and 2006. Off the charts. Record profits. Why? I think the repairs and parts will invigorate the US vacuum service and parts industry. Just like Fantom did years ago for the industry. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by DC15 on 01/29/06 at 2:28pm Please.... Sears ad with the Dyson in the Parade magazine.... Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 3:12pm NO please necessary. I can't remember SEARS ever having a ad for dyson in the PARADE section. Ever. Sorry. But my memory is not always right. If it were several years, it's possible. Who knows? Did you see the VAX ad by BEST BUY today? Absolutely stunning. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 01/29/06 at 6:13pm "Did you see the VAX ad by BEST BUY today? Absolutely stunning. " This as must be exclusive to VA. Seems as though you judge the world by your local BB. You need to get out of there since the world does not revolve around that 1 area. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/29/06 at 6:26pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
US is nationwide. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 01/29/06 at 6:30pm I saw it this saturday in our local paper, it is very informative.B.T.W. Hardsell are you and Carmine going to go at it again.I cant wait, it's been a while. regards, old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 01/29/06 at 6:37pm Why? I think the repairs and parts will invigorate the US vacuum service and parts industry. Just like Fantom did years ago for the industry. Carmine D.[/quote] YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT .SIR CARMINE |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by MrRogers on 01/29/06 at 7:48pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So has the well renowned Snapper Hi-Vac push mower. What's your point? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/30/06 at 3:27am MrRogers wrote:
"Looks like Dyson's $50 motor costs almost as much as the complete Empower...... You have to pay more to get more. " HARDSELL Not true especially with the high priced bagless. $400-$500 buys medicocre performance, a $50 outsourced motor from PANASONIC (used in the $50 bagged upright PANASONIC), sub par brush roll (comparable to brush rolls in stick vacuums), the same plastics quality as the least expensive big box retailers' vacuums, only a 2 year limited warranty, and a vacuum assembled and producd by contractors (read: lowest bidder) not the maker's salaried and benefits employees. All this for a premium price. Not worth it IMHO! You can get much more for your money and LESS money with other vacuum choices and options. That's my point. :) THanks for asking. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Mike_W. on 01/30/06 at 4:00am I saw the HOOVER Z commercial Thur. night. I thought it was well done. I also saw the ad four times in a half hour period on the WB tonight. I was at Sears last week and walked past a wall and found a floor to ceiling picture/ad for the HOOVER Z. No one could miss that. It looks like HOOVER and Sears are finally getting their act together to sell this machine. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/30/06 at 8:12pm ArtieV wrote:
Thanks Art. Keep us posted. PS: I like the title of your thread: Dyson Dysfunction. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/03/06 at 5:34pm "Still not a peep regarding the Z. LOL We both know why don't we Carmine. " Bruce ___________________________________________ Reposted in response to Bruce's question: ___________________________________________ I'm prefacing this remark with the caveat that I have not seen the The HOOVER Z in person. THe HOOVER Z is a specialty vacuum (IMHO). It will not be a mainstream US seller. It is a "niche" vacuum. It rounds out a product line that already includes 75 various models of full sized canisters and uprights. It's not meant to supercede any other models or compete with any of the other HOOVER canisters and uprights. It's in a category of its own. Specialty. THe HOOVER Z buyers (and users) are not concerned by the weight of 18.75 pounds, bagless feature, oddity of style and uncommon electronic controls. They are buying this vacuum for its unique function (two vacuums in one). If it becomes more mainstream down the road, HOOVER will be thrilled. If not, it will stay niche and sell to target market of buyers who want and like the two in one feature. I suspect it will be tested in the next round of vacuums by Consumer Reports or in a special feature. I also suspect it will get excellent grades for carpet cleaning and performance because it has the tried and true HOOVER WT technology. But we'll have to wait and see. In any case, regardless of its grades and sales, it will be around in this form and function fro several years. At least as part of the HOOVER 100 year celebration next year. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 02/03/06 at 6:52pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
28 lbs, not 18..... Why haven't you seen it yet?? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/03/06 at 7:35pm According to the HOOVER Z specs on the BEST BUY web site its weight is 18.75 pounds. I posted the answer to the question already. Last month this time I had an opportunity to scope out the HOOVER Z in Richmond VA. I declined the invite and explained here on this Forum in detail the reasons. Competing priorities. AND niche, bagless vacuums, HOOVER or otherwise, are not my first preference. In the vernacular, bagless is not my bag. :D I supect I will have the opportunity in due time. When I do, I will post my observations in a review on the Forum. I suspect they will be very similar to what I have already posted. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 02/03/06 at 7:57pm Sorry I missed that post.......... Hoover Z is exclusive to Sears, so how can it be on Best Buy's website? Sears.com lists it at 28lbs. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/03/06 at 8:05pm Check the BEST BUY website. Your brand was exclusive to BEST BUY in June 2002. After several months SEARS snagged it too. Pay back is fair play. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Vacfan on 02/03/06 at 8:42pm If the Hoover Z only weighs 18 lbs than all that weight must be in the upper third of the handle because it is the heaviest feeling vacuum I have tried in a long time. Also, I thought the "Z" was a Sears exclusive. Is it now available at other stores? I can tell you from talking to the salespeople in the vacuum dept at my local Sears store that there will be no tears there if the "Z" line is dropped. The last time I was at Sears (a couple of weeks ago) one of the salespeople volunteered that not only had he not sold a single "Z" but he had had to repair the floor model twice. I'll bet the "Z" experience has a lot to do with Maytag now wanting to dump Hoover. To watch your new "flagship" model (according to a Hoover press release published in December on Yahoo PR news) take such a terrible dive has got to be tough. It's really sad to see how far that company has fallen. The trouble is, I don't see a worthy replacement for Hoover at this point. It certainly isn't Dyson. Not at their price points and mediocre ratings. Maybe the Kenmore line itself, judging from their latest Consumer Reports ratings, is the answer. Why bother selling Hoovers (or Dysons) when your own brand is doing so well. By the way, does anyone know who manufactures the Kenmore vacuums for Sears? I worked for Sears many years ago when I was in college and everything they sell under their own name is made for them by someone else. I thnk that Hoover even used to make some of their Kenmore canisters for them. Also, I will say that I am very impressed with the Eureka line. IMHO, that Smartvac Boss really is the best value right now in the entire vacuum market. You really could buy 4 Smartvacs for the cost of one "Z" or Dyson and according to CR, Eureka is the 2nd most reliable vacuum brand. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by mmc on 02/03/06 at 9:05pm Found it...........still says 28 lbs on sears.com eh, who knows.......guess I'll have to bring a scale in with me next time i'm in sears ;) |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by guess_who on 02/03/06 at 10:06pm Hi, Following is a linkt to the Hoover Z and downloadable user guide. http://www.hoovercompany.com/db/xq/asp.hvrProductMain/CatID.1/SubID.1/ProdID.268/ModID.1976/qx/HooverZBagless.htm Venson |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 12:55am "If the Hoover Z only weighs 18 lbs than all that weight must be in the upper third of the handle because it is the heaviest feeling vacuum I have tried in a long time. " 18.75 if the specs are correct. Traditional uprights have the bulk of their weight in and at the base/bottom of the vacuum. THe HOOVER Z is just the opposite. It has most of its weight above the base and on the handle (except in its Z position for canister use). THis gives it a higher center of gravity than conventional uprights in the upright position and the "feel' that it is heavier. The HOOVER Z at 18.75 pounds is lighter than most uprights and almost all canisters on the USA market today. For a person/couple who likes and wants the HOOVER Z's concept (2 vacuums in 1 for the cost of only one), no sales pitch is necessary except to demo its use. For those who do not, no sales pitch is enough. It is a "niche" vacuum. Not a mainstream seller. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/04/06 at 8:37am "I posted the answer to the question already. Last month this time I had an opportunity to scope out the HOOVER Z in Richmond VA. I declined the invite and explained here on this Forum in detail the reasons. Competing priorities. AND niche, bagless vacuums, HOOVER or otherwise, are not my first preference. In the vernacular, bagless is not my bag." Why can't you just visit a store without an invite? You jumped on the Fusion when you thought that it would destroy Dyson. It hasn't and you know that the Z is a joke so you keep silent about it. On the ropes again, eh Carmine. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 10:47am HARDSELL: I took a special interest in the FUSION (a bagless) for two reasons: 1) A fan of the high priced bagless erroneously stated that HOOVER would be sued over the FUSION for copy right infringement. He predicted the lawsuit would be plastered all over the business news pages and be "wrapped in a big red bow." I researched the misinformation personally with HOOVER to learn it was completely false information by a fan of the high priced bagless. Not unusual for him and his favorite brand loyalty. 2) I wanted to purchase the HOOVER FUSION for my daughter and son-in-law to replace a HOOVER Soft and Light that is over 5 years old. THe latter is used by them on their upper level of the a new house purchased in Feb 2005. In my area, the vacuums were sold ouit as quickly as they were stocked. I tried in Las Vegas and was successful to find them in stock. My daughter talked me out of it because the old 5 year HOOVER is doing so well. I suggested she sell it when she moved. She didn't because she likes it so much and it has been with her in her college dorm, a college apartment, a new house in Utah, and now a new house in Vegas. Frankly I am pleased that you and others hold my opinion of vacuums in such high esteem that you are constantly asking me if I've seen one or another. As I said, all in due time. Bagless is not my bag. THe HOOVER FUSION was an exception for the reasons I explained. BTW, it is an excellent seller for Wal*Mart, a perfect venue for its sales. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/04/06 at 11:29am "Frankly I am pleased that you and others hold my opinion of vacuums in such high esteem that you are constantly asking me if I've seen one or another. As I said, all in due time. Bagless is not my bag. THe HOOVER FUSION was an exception for the reasons I explained. BTW, it is an excellent seller for Wal*Mart, a perfect venue for its sales. " Frankly most do not hold your opinions in high esteem. You are the only one who feels that you are great. We only like to see you trap yourself. Yes the Fusion being a low end item does fit in with Wal Mart. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 02/04/06 at 11:45am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
You are funnier than words can ever describe. LOL Now all of a sudden you believe the Z is only 18.75 pounds and you believe this false information. LOL I've picked up the box and used the Z and know it weighs significantly more that 18.75 pounds. LOL Give me a break... this beast is heavier than any plastic upright on the market. The center of gravity is back breaking for the user. There's no mysterious "feel" that makes it appear heavy because it IS HEAVY. The weight distribution of this thing is completely wrong. Why would anyone want to feel as if they are pushing a wheelbarrow full of bricks? Let's face it Carmine, you can't get out of this one. The Hoover Z is a huge failure!! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by M00seUK on 02/04/06 at 12:03pm That a certain 'niche' brand has delivered sustained year on year growth, become leader in the US market by value, introduces regular new products & technologies, has good PR and positive word of month - yet it's still continual doom and gloom forecasts from a certain corner. Firstly, it was said that people wouldn't buy in to it, then later that the 'honeymoon period is over' and that 'the tide will soon turn'. The Hoover Fusion dual-cyclone inspired upright is introduced as a low cost 'spoiler' for the bagless market leader, but has reported design weaknesses leading to reliability and emissions problems - it 'aint going anywhere it would seem. The Hoover 'Z', now let me get this right, this is the premium contender from Hoover that was talked about here a year ago? The one thing I will say is that it looks original, very original - however it's reported to be selling far below expectations. But that no worries... it's a brave move for Hoover, it's *meant* to be a niche product and it doesn't matter at all that it's not selling because Hoover have 20 other models in the range??? '(regarding Hoover) We have many challenges before us,' Ralph Hake, chief executive of Maytag, told analysts yesterday. 'We can no longer carry the burden of this underperforming product line, so we’re now exploring other strategic options, including the sale of our floorcare business.' Hoover is heading for sell-off as Dyson cleans up in America http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13129-2023968,00.html This is the victory speech of a brand's continued success in the market place? Janitor's pioneering invention failed to keep pace http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13129-2023969,00.html |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 1:35pm I'm happy to see and hear that the British press (NPD?) is reporting the USA vacuum sales for 2005 so soon after the close of the 2005 year. And the high priced bagless is doing so well in "dollar market share." The parts and repairs of that particular bagless brand will invigorate the US vacuum industry's parts and service business for the vacuum store independents. If only the US vacuum industry had access to vacuum sales data as quickly as the UK press. Generally, with the exception of the high priced bagless brand maker, the US vacuum industry takes months after the close of the year to publish even good estimates of unit sales. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by M00seUK on 02/04/06 at 1:41pm Presumably, this is the quoted NPD source for the table of figures The NPD Group, founded in 1967, provides global consumer and retail information that helps manufacturers and retailers make more informed, fact-based decisions in order to optimize their businesses. Many of the world’s most successful companies rely on us for insight on what is selling, where and why so that they can understand and leverage the latest trends. http://www.npd.com/about.profile.html |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 1:48pm Is the NPD recognized as a reliable source of vacuum unit and volume sales data in the USA? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/04/06 at 3:03pm "Is the NPD recognized as a reliable source of vacuum unit and volume sales data in the USA? " More so than you. Where is your data to refute Dyson's sales claims? Your sentimental feelings for Hoover are not good enough evidence. Also, it seems that NPD is as trustworthy as your beloved CR . |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 3:14pm HARDSELL: I am not a USA industry authority on sales data. In the USA, most vacuum makers, hold this data close to their vests, in part because of the extreme difficulty to collect accurate data on a timely bases. The high priced bagless is the only one exception. It seems to be very forthcoming with the market share data. But then again, it has not been very forthright with returns, refurbs, and repack data. All of which decrease actual new sales and profits. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by M00seUK on 02/04/06 at 3:45pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
...several magnitudes more reliable than gauging a brand's success based on the Best Buy promo end at a moment in time... ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 4:57pm M00seUK wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. One of the BEST BUY store's I often use to gauge brand success and sales is the store in Woodbridge VA. THis store stopped selling the dyson DC11 in October 2004, months before the company withdrew the model from the USA market. Sources from this store informed me of the DC15 price drop several weeks before it actually happened. I am aware of only one UK brand name that has officially documented monthly and yearly sales figures (in units I might add just as the data is collected in the USA): That brand is VAX. The high priced bagless is noted for making "claims of record sales" but not delivering on the proof to support the claims. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 02/04/06 at 7:43pm You constantly bring up the DC11 and it's failure in the US. What about the Hoover Z? I'm predicting it will be the biggest flop in history. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 8:16pm Bruce: Here's the situation with the DC11 as I reported on this Forum. The vacuum was first demoed to me in May 2004 by a friend and colleague at the SEARS Grand which had just opened in Salt Lake City in Sept 2003. I reported that it was not worth $499.99 because the power nozzle was not made for US rugs. With normal hand pressure exerted on the brush roll, I could stop the revolving brush. Andy Weter reported the same finding on this Forum before I did. I demoed the DC11 to the BEST BUY staff in Woodbridge VA in June 2004 when it launched here. At the time, the store was about to advertise the DC11 in the Sunday weekly supplement and the DC11 was on display on the premier end cap position. The dyson rep had not walked the sales staff through the vacuum's features. I was asked to and I did. I pointed out to the BEST BUY sales staff the inadequacies of the power nozzle revolving brush. Seeing is believing. The DC11 was not suited for US market because it lacked a good rug nozzle for performance. I pointed this out to a certain fan of the DC11 offline to get his opinion. He assured me that the high priced bagless company had a better power nozzle in the works and it would soon be standard on the DC11. That never materialized. My sources at this BEST BUY told me about the huge number of DC11 returns. The most ever for a new vacuum product. The few vacuum stores in the area who carried dyson at the time, and were required by the company to accept the canisters, told me the same. Customers were returning them in record numbers in less than a week. As soon as buyers used the DC11 in their homes and the brush rolls stopped, the customers called/returned them. In October 2004 BEST BUY in Woodbridge took all the new DC11's off the shelf. Only about a dozen repacks and refurbs were left behind for the store's weekly discounting. I could have bought one for as little as $100 from this store and declined. It literally took the store months and years to get rid of these used DC11's. As you know the company subsequently pulled the DC11 off the US market completely in Feb 2005. All told in less than 9 months the DC11 was gone. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/04/06 at 8:21pm I believe that by now everyone is aware of the DC11 withdrawal. It was not good in the US market so It ws withdrawn. Hoover on the other hand continues to introduce a new dud every quarter while leaving the preceding duds on the market. No manufacturer needs to offer 75 models. If Hoover were as intelligent as Dyson they might not be for sale. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/04/06 at 8:24pm "I am not a USA industry authority on sales data. In the USA, most vacuum makers, hold this data close to their vests, in part because of the extreme difficulty to collect accurate data on a timely bases." I never doubted that you were not an authority so why do you try to lead everyone into thinking that you are. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 8:32pm HARDSELL wrote:
To my knowledge there is no recognized US authority, individual, organization and otherwise that provides accurate, industry sanctioned data on the quantities of new unit vacuums sold by brand and model each year. The best data offered is always provided with constraints, limitations and caveats. Saying I am not an authority on yearly vacuum sales counts is not trying to lead people to think I am. In fact, just the opposite. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 8:43pm "If Hoover were as intelligent as Dyson they might not be for sale. " HARDSELL: You're assessing human traits to companies. HOOVER is for sale because several suitors (3 to be exact) were in a bidding battle to acquire it (and its parent company). Last year this time the stock was at a 52 week low of $9 share. I mentioned that the stock and the company were good buys at this depressed price. At least 3 suitors thought the same and the stock price was bidded up from $9 to $21 a share. THis is a case where the sum of the parts is greater than the total. HOOVER and MAYTAG separately should command more than $21. I believe HOOVER can get the same if not more than MAYTAG if it is spun off and sold independent of MAYTAG. Spinning off HOOVER and MAYTAG also makes them more attractive to purchase. Why? Vacuum makers can bid for the HOOVER component and laundry makers for the MAYTAG component without concern for acquiring major business operations that are not their core business. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/11/06 at 11:43am The HOOVER Z and product line compliments of SEARS get the coveted Sunday Newspaper Parade advertising. Just in time for the big President's Day weekend sales. I've heard first hand, second hand and third, that vacuum industry followers are impressed with the design, form, function, and price of the HOOVER Z. It's being hailed as the most innovative vacuum being sold today. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 02/11/06 at 12:30pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
That's the biggest CROCK I've ever heard Carmine. Where do you come up with this garbage? These so called "industry followers" are lost sheep and/or smoking something they shouldn't be. If it's hailed as the most innovative vacuum ever sold, why haven't you purchased one yet? LOL What a CROCK!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/11/06 at 12:34pm I have heard 1st, 2nd, 3rd and so on that Dyson is supreme. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 02/11/06 at 1:51pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Of course the New York magazine called the Hoover Z "low brow and despicable" in a recent taste hierarchy and the Maytag CEO is saying they can no longer carry the burden of the of Hoover's underperforming product line. With Dyson passing them in marketshare it grows ever more interesting that some "experts" here are wishfully stating the gig is up for Dyson and grasping at every straw they can find to predict what they wish would happen. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/11/06 at 3:33pm Bruce wrote:
My job is not to get you to believe what they said, it's just to tell you. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 02/13/06 at 12:28am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
It only further demonstrates how much these vacuum industry followers are detached from the real world... function and good price!!! HA It's the biggest joke in vacuums being sold today. It's certain this monster is destined to failure! Wait and see Carmine. It won't be long. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/13/06 at 3:02am Bruce wrote:
Bruce: The HOOVER Z will probably be certified by the CRI. The HOOVER Z has more patents and/or pending patents than any other vacuum in the industry today (maybe ever). The HOOVER Z solves the most often asked consumer vacuum buying question: What type of vacuum is best for me: An upright or canister? Now there is another option: The HOOVER Z. The HOOVER Z is the most economically priced vacuum on the market today for solving all household cleaning problems. Whether your cleaning needs are rugs, floors, steps and/or all of the above, the HOOVER Z is a perfect fit. The HOOVER Z has the lowest rug nozzle cleaning profile of any upright on the market today. This makes it ideal for users to quickly and easily vacuum under beds and furniture without any unusual fuss or bother. The HOOVER Z is 18.75 pounds. This is the same weight as most of today's uprights with on board tools and less than most canisters on the market today. And its two vacuums in one. It's unique! There's only one vacuum like it on the market today: 2 vacuums in one. The HOOVER Z has the right mix of vacuum attributes to become the most successful household floorcare product in the last decade (maybe longer). The HOOVER Z will lead HOOVER into the company's second century next year. That's a milestone. By then the HOOVER Z will have established itself as a resourceful and reliable vacuum product. By then, HOOVER's fate and future will be known. Is there a Buffett on HOOVER's horizon? Closer to the here and now, Consumer Reports will probably do a special feature on the HOOVER Z in the very near future. If I'm correct, the CR reviews will be very complimentary. High grades for performance, practicality and price. Don't worry, I won't say I told you so. :) Well maybe just once. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/13/06 at 3:33am justasking2 wrote:
New York magazine? I never heard of it. Where can it be purchased? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 02/13/06 at 2:00pm It's not surprising that New York magazine would be anti-Hoover. Dyson launched in New York and spent a fortune on an advertising campaign there. Hoover likely does not advertise in New York magazine. Since when has a vacuum been meant to make a fashion statement? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/13/06 at 2:18pm I recall a bunch of free dysons got given away at that launch (bribes?). New York is the fashion capital of the USA. The last time HOOVER gifted vacuums to me was over 50 years ago and they were play vacuums that ran on 2 D sized batteries. I had to supply the batteries. :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/26/06 at 9:50am Within the coming weeks, the HOOVER Z will be in TARGET stores nationwide. It's the Z 400 (white) for $399.99. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by VacOMatic on 02/26/06 at 1:18pm The Z ' s also at FRYS Electronics; both models, for same pricing as at Sears. Its unusual design sets itself apart from any other vac sold there. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/27/06 at 6:54am VacOMatic wrote:
I would also add the 2 year unconditional warranty on the HOOVER Z is a nice feature that is not found even in higher priced vacuums. And HOOVER has a flawless reputation for standing behind its warranty on products and even doing more. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/27/06 at 10:59pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Why are sales volumes so low if it has so much to offer? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/28/06 at 3:22am HARDSELL wrote:
HOOVER Z sales and success are currently meeting expectations. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/28/06 at 7:40am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So they did not expect many sales. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/28/06 at 7:45am HARDSELL wrote:
Every sale of a new HOOVER Z with a TWO YEAR UNCONDITIONAL PRODUCT WARRANTY is one more than your favorite brand. :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 02/28/06 at 12:12pm The Hoover Z doesn't even need to sell well. It just needs to make a statement that Hoover is bold and innovative. It is meant to draw attention to Hoover products. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 02/28/06 at 2:00pm RAT wrote:
Grant you, the Z will get your attention. But wait till the consumer demo's it and notes the price. LOL That's what they'll be doing.... LAUGHING!! If Hoover engineered and designed this blunder to "draw attention", the Hoover team is more of a fool than I give them credit for! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 02/28/06 at 2:17pm The Z is supposed to be seen from a distance - not up close. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by dualcyclone on 02/28/06 at 6:27pm The Hoover "Z" was obviously designed by Hoover Engineers who were on drugs, drunk, or both. The machine is a joke, a laughingstock, a tank, a monstrosity. It is NOT a vacuum cleaner. "Vacuum Cleaners Should Work PROPERLY". The "Z" doesn't even really work, much less 'properly'. I bought a Hoover Z at Sears that was returned TWICE for $79 plus tax. I'm bringing it to the next Vacuum Cleaner Collector's Club meeting, where the club can see, use, and LAUGH at the thing 'in person'. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/28/06 at 8:08pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Not very good logic logic Carmine. 1 or 2 Z sales a day has no impact on Dyson. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 02/28/06 at 8:09pm RAT wrote:
If that is the purpose is it any wonder that they are broke? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacuuman on 03/01/06 at 1:12am I hate to be too negative about this new vacuum, but I predict a failure. The Sears I go to has only sold one of them so far. And I personally wasn't impressed with it. it is way too heavy and bulky, and its bagless. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/01/06 at 2:02am vacuuman wrote:
You certainly aren't being to negative. Anyone with a little common sense knows the Z is the biggest blunder from Hoover to date. I've already predicted it will fail as sure as the sun rises. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/01/06 at 3:36am RAT wrote:
Word! True dat. Amen. For best results, retailers' should display the HOOVER Z right next to the most expensive bagless brand with a 2 year "LIMITED" warranty imported from Malaysia and made by the lowest bidding contractors. :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/01/06 at 4:05am dualcyclone wrote:
Let's see if I have the facts you stated correctly: You bought a HOOVER Z with a TWO YEAR UNCONDITIONAL PRODUCT WARRANTY for $79? You're taking it with you to the Annual Vacuum Cleaner Collectors' Club meet, the foremost authoritative group of vacuum experts in the USA. You're the self-professed banner boy for dyson? You're not taking a dyson? But a HOOVER Z! And you think the laugh is on the HOOVER Z? As my friend Dr. Phil asks: How's that working for you? :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/01/06 at 4:16am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I think you may be making one of your assumptions based on no fact at all. I am willing to bet that he will be bringing Dyson's to clean up after that Z. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/01/06 at 5:10am JimB wrote:
As the HOOVER ad claims: HOOVER with Windtunnel technology picks up 56 percent more than dyson DC07 and DC14. That means for every one and one half pounds of dirt HOOVER picks up, dyson picks up one pound in the same time and effort. FACT. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacdocph on 03/01/06 at 5:52am I would put my $ on the Hoover WT . that vacuum is a power house. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by vacdocph on 03/01/06 at 5:57am The Hoover Z I have not tried one yet maybe I will go to Sears and try one . Is this like the Hoover WT ? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/01/06 at 6:45am vacdocph wrote:
The HOOVER Z has the patented HOOVER WindTunnel technology, along with several new pending patents. It's a powerhouse. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/01/06 at 7:04am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
That would certainly keep Dyson in the # 1 spot. That would be like putting a performance car next to SUV and expecting to sell the SUV. Hoover could give a 10 year warranty on the Z. If it is never used then it can not break. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/01/06 at 10:58am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
There you go again.... First, as usual an interesting response as we were talking about the hoover z, are you now claiming the Z is a version of the Windtunnel? Second, who cares about some test that only alleges to tell you about the first few passes of a new machine out of the box most consumers want to know how that vacuum works as you get to the 2nd and 3rd rooms. And by the way, even with such a weak quoted test can you name one lab that will verify those results yet? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 03/01/06 at 11:58am JimB wrote:
Carmine, The Dyson zombies will continue to pooh-pooh any test that shows how much dirt their vacuums miss. As the bag fills with dirt (i.e. the dirt that the Dyson would never have extracted since it's middling performance never improves), the degree to which the Windtunnel's performance exceeds the Dysons drops slightly from 56% to around 35% with a nearly full bag for medium pile carpeting. Computing how much dirt the Windtunnel gets compared to the Dyson involves integrating the area under the curve. Naturally, Hoover doesn't have the inclination to get that technical in a 30 second advertisement. If we switch our test to low pile glued down commercial carpeting, the Dysons will nearly equal the performance of the Windtunnel after the Windtunnels bag is 75% full. The Windtunnel's suction and agitation advantage is attenuated somewhat on glued down commercial carpeting. Since most people, other than perhaps Hardsell, don't have low pile glued down commercial carpeting in their homes, the Dyson loses always. Face the facts, Dyson doesn't clean carpeting as well as Windtunnel. You can argue ease of use, better accessories, how pretty your Dyson looks, that you don't need to buy bags, longer hose, longer cord, or more features, but give it up on rug cleaning ability. You can even argue that dust mites prefer the color of Dysons to Hoovers 2 to 1. You can tell us how Dysons are so pretty that they are in some museums. For carpet cleaning performance, just give it up. For that matter, a $50 Dirt Devil will clean carpeting better than Dyson. But a $50 Dirt Devil isn't as impressive looking as a $400 piece of "art" Dyson. Nor does it have such nice accessories. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by ArtieV on 03/01/06 at 1:37pm RAT wrote:
Quote:
Boy-o-boy. Now we have the mathematicians with their integral calculus techniques joining the accountants and testing labs with their proprietary tests to explain Hoover's superiority! Come out of the closet guys! What we need is a television reality show, perhaps moderated by Howie Mandell, to run tests, on stage, with different vacs on a variety of carpets, on stage, with standardized buckets of dirt, properly counterbalanced experimental designs, digital scales, dust masks, in an open competition of a type which most normal mortals could concur was honest and not biased and understandible and representative of real life situations. While this seemed silly to me as I am first typing this, vacuum testing is not rocket science and a lot could be accomplished in a series of several prime-time shows: no secrets, each vac getting the same treatment, large digital displays on the sucked-out dust scales, etc. etc., audience monitoring and cheering, Price-Waterhouse and prominent Forum members in attendance. I understand an informal (fun) version of the approach occurs in vacuum-cleaner club meetings already. The show could be sponsored by hardwood flooring suppliers, Stanley Steemer, Claritin for mite allergies, with a panel of psychologists and counsellors to help those with too much time on their hands. ;D -=Art=- |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 03/01/06 at 3:57pm ArtieV wrote:
Every testing organization has had consistent results. The bottom line is that Hoover Windtunnel is the top of the class for carpet cleaning. Dysons, particularly the DC07 and DC14 are mediocre. We've been told how successful Dyson has been in the US. Clearly they have the resources to pay for an independent lab to certify that over the long term their products will perform better than the Hoover Windtunnel. The burden is on Dyson to prove that they perform better. All the evidence that has been published so far indicates that Hoover Windtunnel is far superior. I would suggest that you Dyson owners write to Dyson and ask them to have the tests run. Prove once and for all that your vacuum will beat the gold standard Hoover Windtunnel. I suspect, however, that they've already run tests and Dyson knows that they lose. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/01/06 at 5:45pm RAT wrote:
They all test the same way so why would the results vary. You admit that you do not own a WT or a Dyson. I own both and the Dyson vacuums better. To further show your ignorance the Dyson cleans better on pile than on indoor/outdoor types or wood. Of course a rat stays in a tummel so you would not know that. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 03/01/06 at 6:01pm Hardsell, Your comments are not supported by facts. Considering all of your Hoover bashing, I wouldn't trust you to be an unbiased tester. The test methods are not all the same. The ASTM test methods are not the same as Consumer Reports. Other magazines use different methodologies as well. In all cases, the Windtunnel kicks Dysons butt. Dyson certainly has the resources to run other tests and have them verified and published. The burden of proof is on Dyson. Clearly Dyson knows that it would lose. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/01/06 at 8:31pm RAT wrote:
If you believe what you read then I suppose that you still believe in the tooth fairy. I read lots of publication tests regarding stereo and home theater equipment. Some are amusing. The WT has never kicked but in my home. Since I pay the bills there I will use my judgement and not some mag writer. BTW, before you chime in telling me that I am not an expert maybe your analysis based on your use of the WT is useless also. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by MrRogers on 03/01/06 at 10:36pm RAT wrote:
Consumers always have the final say, and the fact that Dysons have grown more popular by demand than the decade old gold standard Hoover shows that..maybe they want more than a machine with an overaggressive brushroll and a decibel disorder (I never considered excessive carpet fiber removal or loud noise a good thing). |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/02/06 at 3:30am MrRogers wrote:
By that standard, the Regina Electrik Broom would be the best vacuum product produced in the 20th Century. Millions were sold over decades. What happened to them and the company? Dead and gone. Dyson dead consistently mistake selling features which make a product sell (the Electrik broom was lightweight, quick, easy and there was one for every person's budget) with performance and quality. Never the twain shall meet. When you can't support the merits of your favorite brand's price and performance on the facts then anything else will have to do: Personal blogs, children's movies, entertainers' testimonials, looks, colors, personal pride in ownership. All the subjective reasons that product hawkers and hypers use to sell a mediocre overpriced product with a limited warranty. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/02/06 at 4:43am It is amazing all the pages of Dyson bashing and yet is this thread not about the Hoover Z. I am for one anxiously awaiting reading the glowing reviews on its powerful follow up on the highly rated Fusion. By the way, I know we have some strong supporters of local vac shops here and I was curious if anyone here had the opportunity yet to see the Hoover company's display and booth at the Vacuum Dealers Trade association's convention this week. It is quite a testament to thier unrivaled support of these business's. ;) |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/02/06 at 6:41am JimBo: When you can't argue the facts change the subject. VDTA in Vegas? Isn't that where product hawkers and hypers and vacuum professional wanna be's with too much time on their hands hang out for a week and scope out the competition's wares? Sorry, over 40 years in the vacuum business and I never had the time and/or desire to attend the VDTA. What did I miss? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/02/06 at 10:33pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
You would never do this would you? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/03/06 at 2:47am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmi, As I understand this comment you believe those independent vacuum dealers that attend the VDTA are wanna be's that do not understand the current state of the business or technology as someone who retired from running a dealership a couple of decades ago? It is entertaining someone so long out of owning a store can call some dealer still in the business who is at a show with a couple generations of succesive owners who is doing over million a year in business a wanna be. Yours and Hoovers dismissal of VDTA member dealers perhaps shows you may be a little to distant from the current business to be deciding industry standards and industry consensus thought. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 3:38am JimB wrote:
JimBo: Do you work for dyson directly or indirectly? What are your professional credentials? Here's your time to shine. Not many independent vacuum store owners have the time and money to close their stores for a week and travel to Vegas to smooz with a bunch of product hawkers and hypers. These are independent owned and operated "small" businesses. One or two person store owners. If they go to the VDTA, who's minding the store? Aunt Betsy and Aunt Ethel? No work, no money. I'm retired from the vacuum business, I have family in Vegas, and I have no interest in going. It's a waste of time for me. Maybe after I move to Vegas, I'll go to one. I'm going next month to Vegas on business and pleasure. One stop will be the new SEARS Grand store that just opened. I will be checking out the new vacuum sales. Including your favorite brand. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 03/03/06 at 9:31am JimB wrote:
I'm assuming that your point is that Hoover did not have a booth at VDTA. Certainly that is a short sighted move if true, but it is not surprising given Hoover's stepchild relationship with Maytag and the upcoming merger with Whirlpool, which will likely be without Hoover. I'd suspect that Hoover management has cracked down on travel, likely cut back on critical areas to cut costs to be more attractive prior to the being sold. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 10:22am RAT wrote:
The first two budget line items cut out of department heads' budgets and centralized under the management of the CFO during a buyout are: Travel and training. Why? I'll leave that to the dyson experts to wonder about. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/03/06 at 11:00am Sorry Carmi, You can try to backpedal and double talk about line items and accounting issue but, yours and apparantely Hoover's dismissal of the many fine family owned business's that are VDTA members as "vacuum professional wanna be's with too much time on their hands" speaks volumes to the credibility that should be attached to your opinions when you attempt to speak for the "industry" opinion for the whole of this group. The VDTA represents many fine people that represent the front lines of this entire industry. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by tiger21 on 03/03/06 at 11:00am Dyson is at Booth #961 and Hoover is at Booth#300. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/03/06 at 11:11am tiger21 wrote:
Please feel free to check out the link of the floor layout you will not find the Hoover company operating booth 300 or anywhere else. http://www.vdta.com/LV06.htm |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/03/06 at 11:41am JimB wrote:
Very interesting ;) Hoover would be the laughing stock of the convention if they were there. Oh, I forgot. This is the place where hawkers, hypers and vacuum professional wanna be's with too much time on their hands hang out. Quite an intelligent remark by our on-board has-been ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 12:26pm JimB wrote:
Sorry JimBo, from the list of exhibitors the business names look like product hawkers and not independent vacuum cleaner store owners and operators. I was the latter for over 40 years. I think I can recognize them from the names just as I can product hawkers. BTW, do you work directly for dyson or indirectly? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/03/06 at 1:03pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Dyson, Miele (three different booths I might add), Lindhaus, Riccar and Sebo are all associating with product hawkers?? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 2:37pm Bruce wrote:
These are product hawkers not independent vacuum cleaner store owners. VDTA are product hawkers. Vacuum cleaner store owners are doing what they do best: Running the vacuum cleaner businesses around the country. VDTA are doing what they do best: Pitching their products. And for the last 25 years the VDTA has been in Las Vegas. Check the hotel and air fare rates from Feb 28 thru March 3 in and to Las Vegas. Generally they are the highest of the year. Independent vacuum cleaner store owners (one and two man operations) can't afford those rates. Product hawkers with business expense accounts (as you bragged one time) can. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 7:29pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Wh leave it to Dyson experts. Dyson is not having a problem. You on the other hand being involved with hoover seem to know al about it. Consultants likely had a hand in the hoover demise. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 7:31pm JimB wrote:
The likes of Carmine can't run with the big dogs. They stay at home on the porch. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 7:34pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
The hawkers are the ones who make the products known so the likes of you have something to sell. Sort of like a vulture just waiting on the free meal. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 8:21pm HARDSELL wrote:
Like I said when the dyson dead can't argue against the facts, they change the subject. Usually by impugning the experts and pros whether testing organizations, authoritative industry sources, or seasoned veterans of the industry. How is that working for dyson? Still no approbation from the industry experts. Not here on the Forum. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 8:25pm HARDSELL wrote:
That's for retired folk. Knowledge never retires, I'm working on career number 3. What about you? Still middle management ready to retire? I'd sooner work for myself than someone else. But not all of us can live on our wits to make a steady pay. Some like you sell out to corporate American for the guarantee of a paycheck every week. How's that working for you? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 8:29pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Excellent |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 8:29pm HARDSELL wrote:
I think they are the same group of consultants that came up with the dyson new ad campaign: Turbo charged mites. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 8:31pm HARDSELL wrote:
Thank you. I agree. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 8:32pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Your subject was hawkers and my comments were regarding same. Keep up Carmine. Expert is defined as as has been and a drip. Fits you. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/03/06 at 8:34pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I was referring as to how it works for me. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/03/06 at 9:16pm HARDSELL wrote:
So was I. You sold out for a position in middle management in Corporate America for a guranteed paycheck. Independent vacuum cleaner store owners like me work for ourselves by our wits, knowledge and skills. We may not be able to afford a yearly trip to Las Vegas during the peak season, but we know a quality vacuum when we see and use it. And dyson isn't one. And every independent vacuum cleaner store owner on this Forum says so. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/03/06 at 9:57pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
HAHAHAHAHA Now isn't that authoritive information. I also see you conveniently left out Dual's business. He is an "independent", right? Dual has more knowledge of vacuums in his little pinky than you'll ever possess in a lifetime! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/04/06 at 12:33am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmi are you confused or simply decietful? Your slamming of the Vacuum Dealer Trade Association is quite frankly a little confusing. As I think you most likely already know members of this organization are proud independent vacuum dealers, despite your dishonest characterization that they are only rich manufacturers they are independent vacuum owners who are working hard to promote the independent vacuum dealers. Manufacturers can only become associate members. Your slamming of this group of independent vacuum owners while pushing Hoover at every opporunity shows you are disconnected from the current Indendent vacuum dealer business by a few decades despite your claim to speak for this group as a whole. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 12:53am Bruce wrote:
There's always one eight (odd) ball in every rack. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 1:03am JimB wrote:
Like I said JimBo when the dyson dead can't face the facts they resort to changing the subject. The list of exhibitors you provided for the 2006 VDTA in Las Vegas are 95 percent product hawkers and 5 percent (TOPS) of independent vacuum cleaner store owners. For all the reasons I already explained. Lock the store for a week and there's no business. No business and there's no money. Plus the vacuum store business owners have to pay top dollar to go and stay in Las Vegas during the peak season (now). I'm going next month to Vegas on business and pleasure. Airfares are less than half what they are now. Hotel rates the same. The highest hotel rates in Vegas are during the week days (as in Feb 28-March 3). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/04/06 at 1:49am There you go again, I did not change the subject. I directly pointed to the fact that you are being dishonest in your dismissiveness of the Vacuum Cleaners Dealers Association. You are correct in that many of the top independent dealers do often attend but that directly contradicts your comment about only industry wanna be's attend the VDTA convention. You and I both know your attempt to paint the members of this association as only the top 5% of all Independent dealers is not truthful. I did not provide a list of members but for consumers out there wanting to support local dealers that belong to the only industry standard association of independent dealers or get expert advice in person and locally here is a link to the vacuum dealer trade associations dealer finder. http://vdta.com/Dealer-Finder.asp |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 3:36am JimB wrote:
There you go again JimBo changing the subject. My reference to "TOPS" was for the percentage of real world vacuum store owners who actually go to Las Vegas for the VDTA based on your list. I said 5 percent (tops). The other 95 percent are product hawkers like you scoping out the competitions' wares. The people who attend the VDTA are not vacuum store owners, even if they are members of the VDTA. They can't. They work for a living and can't afford to take a week off, close the store and spend bu ku bucks in Vegas to hob nob with wanna be's like you. They are already. You're not and never will be, except a wanna be with an expense account. Here's your chance to shine. Share with the Forum 5 things you learned about the current affairs of the independent vacuum cleaner stores in the industry as a result of your attendance at the VDTA this past week. One for each day. Easy and simple. You got the floor. Go for it. Enlighten us with your wealth of new gained knowledge. BTW, do you work for dyson directly or indirectly? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by old-timer on 03/04/06 at 9:44am Their is no substitute for experience my friends, while the vdta show and organization may be good for most , the real hardcore vacuum people dont go, while the wanna be's are trying to figure it out were making a killing. sell, sell, sell, old-timer |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/04/06 at 11:42am old-timer wrote:
Morning old-timer. So you think that all of the auto expos and racing events do not promote auto sales I suppose. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/04/06 at 12:56pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I'd rather be the even eight ball than the odd fool! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 1:39pm Bruce wrote:
I sincerely hope you could be better than either of these choices, but I'm having some doubt. Let's recap: This thread has been taken off its subject which is the HOOVER Z by the dyson dead first with the VDTA and now with comparisons to auto shows. Like I said when the dyson dead can't argue the facts, they change the subjects. Eventually we should come back to the HOOVER Z, the most patented vacuum ever made and its got a TWO YEAR UNCONDITIONAL PRODUCT WARRANTY assembled in the US by salaried and benefits union employees. Who makes your brand and where? Isn't it a 2 year "limited" (read meaningless) warranty. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/04/06 at 1:41pm My vacuum is made in Germany and has a five year warranty on the motor. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 1:46pm Bruce wrote:
Miele is an excellent vacuum. I agree. Buy dyson......... terrible. Overpriced, more sizzle than substance, just like Consumer Reports says. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/04/06 at 3:32pm Carmine, you never answer a direct question. You always respond with other questions or change the subject. Look who is calling the kettle black. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 3:42pm I've learned the Socratic method from some of your dyson dead. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/04/06 at 3:56pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Wrong Carmine. You use the Socratic method to avoid answering questions. A mere cop-out on your part! |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 5:36pm Bruce: You are entitled to believe and think what you like and accuse me of whatever you want. It really doesn't matter to me. I find you and other dyson dead rather amusing and comedic. Eventually the truth always comes out and I'm content to wait until it does and take consolation in the fact that it is. You and the other dyson dead who accused me of lying about the $50 Panasonic "sourced" motor used in the dyson DC07 and DC14 ($400-$550) will have to deal with their consciences and actions. I know the truth and I'll continue to make it known whenever I have the opportunity. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/04/06 at 5:36pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
You haven't learned in years. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Bruce on 03/04/06 at 6:39pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
D I T T O ;D |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 6:59pm Bruce: I'm honored that you liked and used my words for making the same point as me. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/04/06 at 8:30pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmi, Your constant claims that I do not know anything about owning and independent business and I must work for Dyson are of great entertainment to me. Your claims of wanting whats best for the neighborhood vacuum shop and then pushing the hoover Z and fusion are what caught my attention here. I only have replied to your dyson attacks because that is what you are attacking and yes they do help me pay the bills. In the meantime you and Tiger might have something to work out about the VDTA before you continue your telling me a neighborhood shop is better off with hoover than dyson. tiger21 wrote:
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/04/06 at 8:35pm JimBo: What are the 5 things you learned? Since Tiger21 and I were both working and couldn't make it this year, how about filling us and the Forum in on what you learned at the VDTA this year? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by HARDSELL on 03/04/06 at 8:52pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I have never sold out to anyone. Vultures like you kiss the customers a$$ while stabbing them in the back and selling them parts they do not need. If not for Corporate America the likes of you would have nothing to sell or repair. DO you think that there is a Santa Clause somewhere that could build all of those vacuums for you to sell and repair. Put your ego in your a$$ and take your head out. If you took more trips out of those hills you would not be so backwards. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/04/06 at 9:32pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I will pace myself so you can keep up so the number one learn would be.... 1) It was reinforced that their are many good hardworking family owned business's that are VDTA members, and anyone claiming to have the best interest of the neighborhood vac shop as a top priority while while slamming this group and pushing the hoover fusion and z is either delusional or extremely transparent in their hypocrisy and can only defend thier position by throwing mud at others, misstating facts and changing the subject when directly challenged. How's that work for you? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 03/05/06 at 12:30am I have seen a lot of accusatory criticism of the VDTA interesting enough from the same group that typically attacks Dyson. I was curious if some of the more moderate vacuum shop owners on here share the hostility and opinion that this is some shadow group that is really in the pocket of the manufacturer's? Or is this group more of what their website claims an association of independent vacuum dealers trying to promote the home town shops. I know I checked out my area on the VDTA dealer finder and plan on stopping in sometime at a few local dealers on their list (congratulate them for being on Carmines top 5% and corporate lackey list) and see what they have to offer. I would think it would be the wise and right thing for a manufacturer to do to attempt to make them selves as available as possible to this group. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/05/06 at 3:49am To think that it probably cost several thousand dollars and a wasted week to come up with one thought on the past VDTA meet in Las Vegas is amazing. I stand even more firmly on my original statement. The VDTA annual meetings in Las Vegas are for product hawkers who are checking out the competitions' wares not vacuum cleaner store owners and operators. The vacuum cleaner store owners don't have the time, money, or interest in hob nobbing with these vacuum professional wanna be's. You're sales people. Vacuum cleaner store owners are business people. If not for them, product hawkers (sales people like you) wouldn't have their jobs. Sorry if being brutally frank hurt's your feelings and doesn't validate the huge costs for your business time and expense for the last week. Sometimes its hard to face the truth. How's that working for you? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/05/06 at 4:31am JimB wrote:
JimBo: Go back and read my post slowly. I was and always have been critical of the annual VDTA meetings in Las Vegas, not the group. The VDTA meetings are for hawkers like you and other dyson dead to check out the wares. Not for vacuum cleaner store owners and operators who work for a living. How's that working for you? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by JimB on 03/05/06 at 8:41pm Sorry Carmi, You have swung and missed again. I have enjoyed watching you make all your assumptions. However, perhaps this convention might be a good fit for the 2nd generation shop owner who can afford the week partly because of accepting a new product instead of being a naysayer. Don't get me wrong the naysayer's are welcome as they leave alot of easy sales for those who have given Dyson a shot. I can tell you for sure any shops out there leading of with your Hoovers will not be taking any vacations deductable or otherwise anytime soon. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/06/06 at 8:38am JimBo: For a salaried person who hawks products (like you) the VDTA is business and a company write off. Most if not all USA vacuum cleaner store owners and operators can't afford the luxury of taking a week off from work and travel Las Vegas for a product hawking show. I seriously doubt they would do so even for a vacation. Not for a week and during the peak Las Vegas season. Especially to find out what you did: "It was reinforced that their are many good hardworking family owned business's that are VDTA members..." Most USA vacuum store owners and operators are one and two person businesses. They are happy to make ends meet and grind out a meager livelihood. Most just enjoy being their own boss and interacting with the customers. While you and other product hawkers enjoy the latter, I don't think you have the wherewithal to do the former. If you did, and you could, you would. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by justasking2 on 03/06/06 at 9:37pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I have been reading posts and I was curious where you got the info for making this claim? I think Jim's posts have been looking more like he works in the shop part of the business? Not that where he works is any of my business I was just curious where you got this fact or are you stating assumptions and opinions as fact again? |
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Title: Re: Another New HOOVER upright Post by RAT on 03/06/06 at 10:59pm I respectfully disagree with you on this one. JimB has not stated whether he works for Dyson directly or indirectly. Justasking2 has no idea where JimB works. We have had many Dyson moles who come on this forum to plant information. |
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