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/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Vacuum Cleaner Forum >> Dyson's The Ball (DC15) /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1112876564 Message started by Chris on 04/07/05 at 8:22am |
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Title: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 04/07/05 at 8:22am The Ball/DC15 (http://www.dyson.com/homepage.asp) http://www.dyson.com/range/DC15-SY-STD/13_full.jpg |
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Title: Re: The Ball "Dyson DC15" US Launch Post by mmc on 04/07/05 at 7:20pm Yeah, probably gonna hit retailers as well as independants, but I would assume just the major players. There was also an article about DC15 in today's New York Times about the launch. |
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Title: Re: The Ball "Dyson DC15" US Launch Post by joethevacman on 04/07/05 at 8:36pm I personally hope that Dyson does not only launch to independant dealers because there are areas, like mine, that don't have independent dealers that can offer all of the models. However we do have a Sears, LNT, Target, Home Depot, Lowes etc.. |
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Title: Re: The Ball "Dyson DC15" US Launch Post by Venson on 04/07/05 at 9:31pm I'm not a great fan of Dyson but this one really does make you stop and take a look. Did anyone also check out http://www.theball.co.uk Though I think one full-featured machine might be the best inducement toward a purchase, the site shows the "ball" in three versions. The cleaner is not only interesting but the marketing campaign is pretty creative and clever -- play the "ball" game. Venson |
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Title: Re: The Ball "Dyson DC15" US Launch Post by dualcyclone on 04/08/05 at 5:49pm Will have to see if the American DC15 is any different from my British DC15 (other than the higher suction of the British model). I was told the brush bar would be even more aggressive for American carpets. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/12/05 at 1:56pm will check local Sears to see when they get theirs...if I learn when will report back. DC15 Price still well below other primo vacs like Radiance, Miele, some Sebo, etc. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/05 at 1:57pm $600. 50 percent more than the DC07 at $400. For the big price tag, people expect big things. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by cprohman on 04/12/05 at 2:00pm Sears says the American version is heavier, at 19.9 lbs. Sears doesn't list specs for airflow. Also, they list as having only one motor, so I wouldn't want to guarantee the accuracy of their "specs" page. Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Mike_W. on 04/12/05 at 2:03pm I will have to say that the handle design/position is one of the best for people who have hand problems. People w/ less muscle strength will be able to hold onto and push easier. I will have to say that ORECK already thought about this though. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by danorob on 04/12/05 at 3:04pm Hello All, I also noticed on the Sears website that there is a yellow accented DC-14 "all floors" model that is one step below the Red DC-14 that comes with the Dyson Floor Tool... This must be new as the Red DC-14 used to be the base DC-14 Model at $459.99... The new DC-14 "All Floors" Price is $429.99... Interesting.... I wonder if they are going to phase out the DC-07??? Dan |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/05 at 3:36pm Chris wrote:
Will the DC15 be sold in Sears stores, or just through the store website? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by JD on 04/12/05 at 3:38pm Has anyone noticed one changed on the DC15 US to the DC15 UK unless the US Pictures are wrong!! Although this change is showing on the picyure of the Dyson US Website. The top of the handle is the other way around!!! How thats going to make it easy to use that way around!! Plus the cleaner handle will not be as low as the UK one which may put more wait onto your waist being higher up!!! Lets wait and see!!! Just thought I mention it!!! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by JD on 04/12/05 at 3:47pm Chris, Its like that on the Dyson US Website!!! So it may not be an error!! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/05 at 3:54pm The wheel barrow with the "ball" front tire never received the US approval that it supposedly did in the UK. Maybe some know the reason. I don't. From my limited observations and research, the more expensive and preferred US wheel barrows (used for heavier loads) have two front tires rather than the traditional one tire. I've not seen any ball tire wheel barrows. Maybe others have seen these? The two front tires stabilize the load in the wheel barrow, maneuver better, and with the rear cradle make for less effort and energy with moving the load. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by mmc on 04/12/05 at 4:52pm "Will the DC15 be sold in Sears stores, or just through the store website?" Yep, it will be in Sears stores soon after launch. By the way, love the story of you throwing those salesmen out of your store :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Chris on 04/18/05 at 4:04pm http://www.dyson.com/invite/default.asp The new and exciting Dyson experience is coming to New York The Dyson Technology Test Drive Tour will be in Manhattan, so bring your friends and family for interactive exhibitions, games and competitions, and to see the latest Dyson innovation. Friday, April 22, 2005 10 am until 7 pm Saturday and Sunday, April 23 and 24, 2005 9 am until 6 pm Free entry W 62nd Street between Columbus and Amsterdam New York City |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/18/05 at 5:40pm Chris: Forgive me for the levity but I can't stop laughing. Bring your friends and family to see a vacuum cleaner? Who thinks up the dyson advertising campaigns. I guess for $600 price tag you have to wow the public somehow with razzle dazzle. That's funny. The vacuum cleaner business is now the entertainment business. Who will be the first Hollywood celebs to get a free DC15? Will there be any big name celebs, hip hop artists, or stars at the launch to help demo? Or just plain and simple dyson folk? My money is on one or two big name stars to demo the new vacuum. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by PKguy on 04/18/05 at 6:19pm Is it a safe bet to assume that the Donald will be there because he seems to be popping up everywhere these days (to my displeasure lol). I don't think Letterman will show but Rudolph Guilliani might make an appearance if he's working on a new book |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by M00seUK on 04/18/05 at 6:24pm Y'know I would find events like this completely laughable, *if* it wasn't an exciting company / brand like Dyson - I even attended a similar type of event for the DC15 UK launch. The chance to see something new, play with it, view test rigs, prototypes, chat to the people behind it, made for a very interesting evening. It's not unlike a motorshow, where you go to view / play with new models and talk to the reps. They get good PR and the chance to gather user feedback. Dyson also did one of public days for the DC12 Japan launch :- http://www.dyson.co.uk/media/streaming.asp?menu=DYSON%2FADS&video=Japan+Roppongi+Launch But would I have gone along to view the latest product unveiling, of say, a Panasonic microwave? Oh my... |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Chris on 04/18/05 at 7:43pm For the video it looks like the Japan launch of the DC12 attracted a lot of people and I already posted that the DC12 was a success. Now they offer 6 DC12's. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/20/05 at 12:54pm The Best Buy location in Woodbridge Va is scheduled to get the DC15 one month from now. The dyson order was placed several weeks ago, the last time the dyson rep was there. According to the store staff, the dyson rep could not provide any information about the DC15, not even its selling price. The first question I was asked by my colleagues at Best Buy: How heavy is the DC15?? Answer: 20 pounds. This Best Buy location has changed dyson reps many times. I will be at the Best Buy location in Woodbridge when the DC15 arrives. I'll take it through the hoops with my friends and colleagues who are on the BB store staff. No fan fare, celebs, giveaways, free food, or entertainment is expected to be provided. Just the old fashioned plug it in, plug it in and vacuum of years past. I have several seasoned vacuum cleaner users accompany me. Next, I'll be visiting several of my friends with vacuum cleaner stores in the area to hear from them on the DC15. THE EXPERTS IN THE VACUUM WORLD. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Chris on 04/20/05 at 1:31pm I'll be waiting for your review Carmine....... NOT |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by ArtieV on 04/20/05 at 1:54pm Carmine et al.: I'll be curious to learn how the DC15 manages the seals and gasket arrangement associated with a motor and fan which are apparently encased in a rotating ball! On one axis must be an inlet for the power cord and motor mount; probably on the other end will be found the channels for both the intake (Vacuum) side of the motor and also the exhaust. The vacuum side at least should probably have a flexible collar which tightens up as the negative pressure increases, but still must allow for roataion of the "ball." I can't imagine how the output side is handled. Probably the post-motor filter is in the ball? Although similar arrangements can be found in water pumps (e.g. dishwashers) it would seem that Dyson has added several points where wear can occur? (The DC07 seems to have only one point where a gasket slides around and may wear---the valve which diverets the air flow from the nozzle to the attachment hose, and so far seems OK on my dyson) Art |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/20/05 at 1:59pm motor contacts possibly brush/ring collar similar to Miele approach for topend hose_to_can, but higher current rating. old amusement rides used them too. They do wear. How long 15's warranty? Is motor/contact system covered longer than rest of vac? Our sears doesn't know when theirs arrives - all excited though. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/20/05 at 3:54pm Chris: I'll be interested to read your review on the DC15, whether or not I agree or disagree. I speak what I believe and stick with it, not waffling or hedging. I won't be alone during the DC15 trial. I'll have a cadre of vacuum cleaner professionals trying out the DC15 along with me, including the Best Buy sales staff. Not as entertaining as the dyson launch but probably more technically oriented and interesting tahn anything you may witness in person. At least we think so, regardless of what others think or choose to believe. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/20/05 at 3:57pm Elcleanofreako wrote:
The DC15 warranty is 2 year limited just like all the other dysons, except 50 percent more in price than the DC07. Will have to wait and see and read the specifics with regard to the "ball." All the questions (Artie) are interesting and worthy of research and answers. We'll see for sure soon enough. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by cprohman on 04/20/05 at 5:08pm As far as the motor encased in the ball, from the pictures I think that the motor rotates with the ball, and the link to the outside world is handled through flexible inlet and exhaust hoses. Thus one curiousity to me is the gyroscopic effect. The rotating fan motor will act like a gyroscope, and when you rotate a gyroscope, you get forces on a different axis. I wonder if this effect will be noticable? Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/20/05 at 8:18pm "The rotating fan motor will act like a gyroscope, and when you rotate a gyroscope, you get forces on a different axis. I wonder if this effect will be noticable?" Carl Two vacuums previously mentioned with motors that moved with the vacuums' motions are the GE Roll Easy and the Westinghouse canister. Both were produced around the same time in the late 1950's. Neither was very popular. Both had very poor sales and short lived productions. Both were competitively priced and marketed during an era when tanks and canisters still outsold uprights. The dynamics of the motor moving in concert with the vacuum movement adversely affected the motors in these vacuums, the GE more than the Westinghouse. The concept was shelved until now. Dyson uses the concept with the "ball" except in an upright mode. The GE motor was horizontally mounted in the vacuum and the dynamics of the vacuum's bouncing, turning, and jarring adversely affected the motor. The GE was designed to be tugged up and down steps. Heat and vibration were hard on the motor's bearings. The Westinghouse motor was vertically mounted in the vacuum and spun clockwise and counter clockwise depending on the user's pulling motion on the vacuum's hose. It will be interesting to see how Dyson "buffers" the motor from the shocks of the vacuum's movements and motions. The DC15 motor is 10 amps rather than the standard 12, in part, to reduce motor heat which will build up on the enclosed motor. We'll see if Dyson proves more successful with the concept than his predecessors, GE and Westinghouse. Two powerhouses of the industry in the late 1950's who failed to design and implement the concept successfully in a household vacuum application. That's not to say that the concept was the sole reason the vacuums failed. But it helped in their demise. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/20/05 at 8:56pm good point on motor being gyro..effect will depend on rotor mass /speed. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by mmc on 04/20/05 at 9:41pm OK, I just needed to put this to bed...... The motor is STATIONARY within the ball, it never moves or spins.......The motor is 10 amp, due to the second motor for thr brushbar being 2 amp. There has been no word if this was to reduce heat. Oh, by the way Carmine, please let me know when you plan on visiting the Best Buy in Woodbridge, I would love to be there since I dont live too far away |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Chris on 04/20/05 at 10:48pm If the launch is tomorrow and BB won't have any in for another month then this launch is for Sears only. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by cprohman on 04/20/05 at 10:54pm The motor is stationary, and only the ball moves? That's not how it looks in the pictures. It looks like the ball and the motor move together. I guess I'll have to see one in person. Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by PKguy on 04/21/05 at 12:13am Here I thought he got the idea from a little kitty toy I have for our cat..it's yellow, about the size of a baseball with a gyrating motor and AAA battery inside. Turn it on and away it goes scooting across the floor, banging into all it meets then changing direction till it crashes again or kitty swats it. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/21/05 at 3:59am mmc wrote:
Where do you live? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC15 US Launch April 21st. Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/21/05 at 4:11am cprohman wrote:
I agree. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/21/05 at 12:22pm yes I see...much simpler design with motor stationary. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by JD on 04/21/05 at 5:22pm Well the DC15 launches tomorrow in the US I see its on the Dyson US website, one Model, yellow and steel with Hepa filter and a new revised handle design (welll turned the other way...why I dont know!) 220 air watts then like the UK version. Also the microball site similuar to eh UK is on there to. Further models to follow maybe!!! I remember someone saying the US model has a clear head around the brush bar....can not see this on the US website on the model shown!! Let us all know what you all think about it over there in the US. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/21/05 at 5:30pm I was expecting to see less air watts for the US model and I'm sure Dyson would come out with more. Our models "All Floors" are called Allergy in the UK. I think the name Allergy is a lot better then calling a vac All Floors JD wrote:
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/21/05 at 5:37pm Dyson also released the DC14 All Floors today. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/21/05 at 5:41pm Since today is Thursday (LAUNCH DAY), I can finally tell you all how the thing works. I have been dying to tell people for a long time now. OK, the ball of course does the rolling, the motor is stationary within the ball. Since there's no belt drive, the armature ends at the bearing bridge. That way, the motor (same as a ConstantMAX but without belt drive shaft) takes up less room within the ball. The suction TO the motor as well as the exhaust FROM the motor are on the same side of the machine. It's larger on the left hand side than on the right hand side if you stand behind the cleaner (as if you are using it). The curved tube leading from the pre-motor filter chamber on top of the high efficiency cyclones, curves down, snaking it's way down the side of the main frame. But, at the point it's level with the Hepa exhaust filter, it breaks into TWO tubes, molded together (sort of). The smaller, top tube carries the air away from the motor, so it's a SIDE entrance to the hepa filter chamber (instead of underneath as in all other Dysons). In effect, the whole 'side' of the ball is open on the one side - with the side tubes being part of the motor 'mounting'. The air enters the motor fan directly (there's a seal between the fan case and the intake tube - about the size of the rim of a waterglass.) The air goes through the fan, over the windings, and UP and over the top of the motor to the outlet tube which is situated directly above the intake tube on the same side of the cleaner. It's not that difficult to get the motor out. The ball comes apart with four screws, it's very easy to work on the machine, much more simple and less complex, even though it might not seem so to the average person. What Dyson has done, is to take things that have occured in vacuums before, and put them together. The ball was done once before - with the motor within a ball center wheel. The swivel joint connection that Dyson's so proud of has been done before, exactly, on the Air-Way Sanitary System dual motor models in the 1930's. It's a virtual copy of the Air-Way Swivel Joint (which was a patented Air-Way feature). It's interesting, to me anyway, that Dyson has been able to make this machine both very user friendly and very intimidating, all at the same time. Women will NOT like it. It's not a woman's vacuum at all, this DC15. Only a man would buy it. Carmine, grab onto that cold, dark heart of yours, because what I'm about to say should push you right over the edge. I THINK IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE. It's $600. The Animal model is $700. I can't ask someone to pay $700 for a vacuum cleaner, I just can't. I would never pay that much for any vacuum. How can I ask my customers (many of whom are also my friends and neighbors) to spend that much money on a vacuum cleaner? Perhaps best buy and Sears are biting off more than they can chew. Now that Wal-Mart is getting the DC07 yellow as well as the Low Reach... And Wally World has to sell them for the same price as everyone else. Haaah! |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by cprohman on 04/21/05 at 6:05pm I stopped by Sears today for something else, and checked out the DC15 in person. It does indeed have a stationary motor, at least relative to the dirt bin. It does swivel relative to the ground, but it didn't really have a noticeable gyroscopic effect when you rotated the handle; the forward pull from the brushroll was much more noticeable. Moving the vacuum without the motor running, it seemed very heavy and clumsy. With the motor running, the brushroll pulled it along nicely and it was easier to use. I still think it would be heavier to use than many people would like. I think this will clearly be a niche vacuum. As far as cleaning, it seemed to pick up test dirt very well. Airflow did seem to be less than the DC07, but probably still enough. The hose end fitting size was smaller than the DC07. The brushroll seemed considerably more aggressive than the DC07. Will it pick up sand better out of American carpets? I'll leave that test to others. I do agree that this vacuum looks easier to work on than the predecessors. The salespeople at Sears didn't know quite what to make of it. The thought the price was high, but also thought it might be handy to go around a lot of furniture. They jokingly referred to it as the Dyson ZTR (Zero Turning Radius). Carl |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/21/05 at 6:54pm "I THINK IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE. It's $600. The Animal model is $700. I can't ask someone to pay $700 for a vacuum cleaner, I just can't. I would never pay that much for any vacuum. How can I ask my customers (many of whom are also my friends and neighbors) to spend that much money on a vacuum cleaner?" Dual Is the DC15 worth the price? Expensive is a relative term. For a family earning $150,000 a year, spending $600-$700 for a vacuum cleaner is not expensive IF the vacuum is worth the money and lasts 10 years or more; i.e. Miele. For a family earning $35,000, spending $175 for a vacuum cleaner is expensive even if the vacuum is worth the money and lasts 3-5 years. The common denominator, regardless of the geographic area and income level, is whether the DC15 is worth $600-$700. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/22/05 at 8:44am It makes no difference what a vacuum DOES, $700 (to me) is way too much to ASK for a vacuum. I don't care if someone is 'rich' enough to afford it. Just because someone makes $150,000 a year is no reason to buy an expensive vacuum. Is a Kirby 'worth' $1,500? According to Carmin, if someone can 'afford' it, it's worth it. DC15 is a great machine. I think it cleans very well and is certainly easy to use as well as being very cool-looking. Then again, I think the DC07 cleans very well, is easy to use, but costs $200 less than DC15. I can justify that DC07 will recover it's cost over it's life (no bags, belts, or filters to buy). Don't think I can justify $700 for DC15 - but I will carry DC15 for the person who wants the very best and is willing to pay for it. It's all what someone is willing to pay for. I paid $1800 for a HP computer in 1998. It better last for the rest of my life - I'll NEVER pay that much for a 'glorified typewriter' again. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/22/05 at 11:12am our sears has one. brief notes; heavy feeling but great(!) manueverability, quieter suction than DC7/14 but OW!! powerbrush shrieks (handy switch for brush turnoff). Rugs were clean so couldn't test pickup - will try again on Sun. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/22/05 at 11:37am Dyson will need a lot of heavy press to get the word out. So far the largest appliance online news sites refused to promote/launch the DC15 again. One time was enough and that was last month for the UK launch. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/22/05 at 12:50pm As usual, Dual you didn't answer a simple question. The question is: Is the DC15 worth the price? A "yes" or "no" answer will do. If you don't know, say I don't know. I'm asking your opinion. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/22/05 at 1:16pm I thought he did.... Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/22/05 at 5:48pm Well Carmine: Since you asked, my opinion is that the machine is 'worth' it's price since it will indeed be 'worth' it to someone. If you ask if it's worth $700 TO ME, I would say no. That's because I like the DC07 just fine. Sure, DC15 will remove another spoon-full of dirt from the rug in the same cleaning time. And it's quieter and easier to manage around furniture. And it's a Dyson. So it's 'worth' $700 (for the Animal model DC15) to someone willing to pay $700 for a vacuum cleaner. If I was selling the Dyson line to customers, I would sell the DC07 to almost everyone, since DC07 is far better than anything they might now be using - and it's certainly easier to get $400 from someone than it is to get $700. It is, after all, just a vacuum cleaner. To be perfectly honest, the Dyson canister model with electric power nozzle is the one I come back to again and again. I'm just not a fan of uprights, when the canister is by FAR more powerful, as well as easier than any upright to manuever around furniture. It's interesting to note that I think it would be far easier to justify a $700 price for the canister model. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by M00seUK on 04/22/05 at 7:25pm Dual, you make an interesting observation on male / female spending preferences with regard to the Dyson DC15; I hadn't considered this until now. I think it's true to say that the unique ball and undercarriage features will certainly make the model appeal more to male purchasers over other models. Do you really think it will make the female purchaser stay well clear? I recognise your experience in the trade; it'll be interesting if you could report back on how this pans out over the next few months. I too had a raised eyebrow moment when I discovered the price would be breaking the 300 GBP price point. People have generally been accepting to pay in the 200's for previous higher tier Dyson's, but the current top-of-the range DC15 is 350... This needn't be a huge issue. I was in an out-of-town electrical store last weekend and had a look around the vac section. In this retailer, the Dyson brand had a whole section to itself, almost as big as the shop space for all the other competing appliances. Here you could browse around 10 models on display, to suit the budgets of most people in the market for a bagless, branded cleaner. As an example, the pricing for the uprights :- DC04 SIL/LIME £129.47 DC07 SIL/YELLOW £173.97 DC14 ST/YELL £184.95 DC15 SIL/YELL £309.97 The DC04 makes a very attractive proposition at that price point. If someone would like any of the extra features introduced across the ranges, they simply trade up as required, within their budget. If the price truly is no barrier, they'll more than likely go for the top of the range DC15. Later on I'll try and post some thoughts I've had on how DC15 sales conversions might work in practise. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/22/05 at 9:56pm hopefully dyson cannister will have quieter powernozzle - dc15's very loud. sad that Miele , Bosch, high end Filterqueen/Airway only ones that can build quiet cans. how is hose system on DC15? - didn't get chance to try that. also noted gaps between rubber seals and plastic parts on DC15 - they closed up once suction motor up to speed. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by vacuuman on 04/22/05 at 10:16pm The Sears closest to us got the DC15 in yesterday. I stopped to see it today on my way to work. I definately like it. It is much better than any of the other Dysons as to the brusroll and nozzle design. It was more pleasant to use because it was easier to push, and quieter. For me, at least, the brush drive noise was easier to deal with than the noise the C07 makes. It's the only Dyson I would use in my house. I still don't feel its the best cleaning vacuum. Ones such as the Lindhaus or Riccar will still clean better. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/22/05 at 10:28pm Does it feel like a self-propelled vacuum when it's turned on? |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/22/05 at 11:18pm To Chris: No, it doesn't feel 'self propelled' exactly. The brush bar does not pull the cleaner forward. What it feels like, kind of, is like a wheel barrow, sort of. A 'ballbarrow' to be more exact. Which is ironic since James invented the ballbarrow. In truth, it feels like you are using a machine much lighter than it actually is. The only 'points' you are pushing are the single ball wheel and the steel soleplate across the carpet. To be perfectly honest, it feels VERY MUCH like using an Air-Way Sanitary System "Chief" twin-motor model from the mid 1930's. It pushes and pulls and twists exactly like the Dyson does. That's due to the exact same 'swivel joint' design on both the old Air-Way and the new Dyson. Which I think is fantastic. Everything old is new again. Except the filthy old bag. Of course. My finding is that, while very light to manuever and propell, the width of the body of the cleaner is somewhat hard to get used to. To MooseUK: In the U.S., we've got three upright models. They will sit next to each other at Sears, Best Buy, etc. I think one of two things will occur. First, someone NOT in the market for vacuums will notice the DC15. It's way cool and most men are going to at least give it an eyeballing due to it's unique design. Women will look at it, then will look at the price, then will look at the lesser expensive Dyson sitting next to it. IF someone is in the market for a new cleaner and goes to the stores, I think if it's a woman alone, she won't even consider the DC15. Not because of the price, so much, but because it is truly intimidating as a machine. If it's a man and woman looking at vacuums, the man will want the DC15, of course. But she will want the DC07. Less expensive and more 'traditional' looking. Who will 'win' depends upon whom does most of the vacuuming. If he does, they'll get the DC15. If she does, they'll get the DC07 (or even DC14). IF they share the cleaning, it will be interesting to see which they buy. Our Sears store will not get the DC15 for a long time, but then again, our Sears only sells appliances and tools, and lawn machines. It used to be a 'catalog store' and now is a franchise store. The store owner said he's happy with the DC07 and most likely won't stock the DC15. Unless people ask for it. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/23/05 at 6:14am "If you ask if it's worth $700 TO ME, I would say no." Dual That's what I asked and thank you for answering. You don't believe the DC15 is worth $600-$700. But you do believe the DC15 performs (cleans) better than the DC07. Do you intend to carry and sell the DC15 in your business? Chris: The question is for you too. Do you intend to carry and sell the DC15? Vacuuman: Do you intend to carry and sell the DC15? Lil Town Vac Man: Will you? Carl: Is the DC15 worth the price? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/23/05 at 6:39am "I think it's true to say that the unique ball and undercarriage features will certainly make the model appeal more to male purchasers over other models. " M00se UK Why? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/23/05 at 9:28am Carmine, Oh yes I will carry the DC15. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/23/05 at 9:40am To Carmine: Of course I'll carry the DC15. Two of them. Just in case someone wants to buy one over the DC07, which as I've said, cleans better than anything the customer would have had. I don't think DC15 cleans $200 better than DC07. IF I had to use an upright all the time to clean house with, I would in fact use the DC15. I'm a man so it appeals to me - and I like the machine. I in fact HAVE to carry DC15 if I want to enter the display contest for the trip to England. DC15 will be part of my "21 years of Progress" display that begins with the 1984 Cyclon and ends with DC15. Will I sell DC15? If someone is interested and can afford the price, of course. Will it be my 'go to' machine? No. DC07 is the Go To machine. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/23/05 at 10:33am I agree, surprise, surprise, with ONE exception. The DC15 is not a male appeal vacuum. It is, quite the contary, a female appeal vacuum. I think the first DC15 you sell will be to a female customer or a couple, not a male. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Mike_W. on 04/23/05 at 12:49pm This vacuum cleaner cleans carpeting nicely w/ its more aggressive brushroll. As I vacuumed up dirt, I watched as dirt was even picked up from the side. Having the narrow nozzle head is much better than the large(tall) heads on the other models of Dysons, because the head will be able to get under some furniture and up to cabinet kickplates easier. The vacuum cleaner is alittle bit more quieter than the other models. Because of the "ball" feature, the vacuum cleaner will be easier to push/pull on carpeting. The ball could be compared to large wheels on some other vacuum cleaners. I do not see the maneuverability of the DC15 spectacular though. If you take any upright that balances most of the weight on the rear wheels, you will find that they can turn in a hearbeat w/o much effort. Take the DC07/14 and Panasonics for example. I cannot see spending $600+ for this machine. I believe that Dyson fans/Vacuum enthusiasts will be the main purchasers of these vacuum cleaners. I think that if men like the machine more than women, it is only because of the rear wheel "take-up" feature. It was interesting to watch. Try it yourself and do it slowly. The wheels will retract at a certain point even if you stop lowering the vacuum cleaner. This vacuum cleaner will be good at directing customers to the cheaper priced Dysons if they still want a Dyson vacuum cleaner. I will give more detail later. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by cprohman on 04/23/05 at 2:21pm Carmine, I can't really answer that question. If the question is simpler, "will I be buying one", the answer is no. For my purposes the DC07 does fine. I would have a hard time justifying spending $700 on an upright vacuum, and that applies equally to other expensive uprights, such as Lindhaus. On the other hand if you compare it to other uprights in the same price range, I can't say that the DC15 looks worse by comparison, so in that respect, perhaps it is worth it. I'd certainly pay $700 for this before spending $700 for an Oreck XL21. Carl |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/23/05 at 3:39pm "I'd certainly pay $700 for this before spending $700 for an Oreck XL21." Carl The DC15 and Oreck uprights are marketed to different clientele. If you were 20 years older and had a bad back and arthritis in your hands, you would probably buy the Oreck XL, if not for $700 then $299. It's also reassuring for the Oreck buyers to know that parts and repairs are available through a nationwide network of Oreck stores and the Oreck paper bags are very large and safe, and easy to replace (vice a bagless). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/23/05 at 3:41pm Mike W. Does the DC15 have the fail safe clutch for the brush roll like the DC07 and 14? Under steady applied pressure, will the DC15 brush roll reduce speed? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/23/05 at 6:17pm Carmine, Did you see it yet? Stop by your locale Sears and take a look unless your prefer to see/demo it at BB. I thought the vacuum cleaner was nice and easy to use. Now Dyson has a vacuum cleaner that able to clean under cabinet kick plates "that was a complaint about the 07/14". The sales lady placed a chair in the way and had me maneuver the vacuum around it. It did a great job and was easy to use compared to the DC14. I agree about the price. The DC07 All Floors MAP price is $399.99 and the DC14 All Floors goes for $429.99 which is $30.00 more then the 07? Is the DC15 All Floors worth $170.00 more then the DC14? I would say NO. It's worth $50.00 "plus or minus" dollars then the DC14 but not $170.00. I think it's a fantastic vacuum by the way and would recommend it to my customers. DC15 ***** DC14 **** DC11 ***1/2 DC07 ****1/2 |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by dualcyclone on 04/23/05 at 6:23pm Carmine: DC15 doesn't use a clutch. When I said it was a copy of the Air-Way Sanitary System Dual Motor "Chief" model, I meant it. It uses the same motor-above-the-brush design as the twin-motor 1935 Air-Way uprights, along with Air-Way's patented Swivel Joint. That means DC15 is also a dual-motor cleaner. Unlike Air-Way, the power nozzle motor on DC15 uses gears and not a belt at all to drive the removeable brush rollers. Like a Sebo, the brush rollers on DC15 are removeable from the side. They are directly driven in the middle (like the Turbine Head from DC11). The Swivel Lock 'finger' on DC15 is also a found, identically, on the 1935 Air-Way. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by cprohman on 04/23/05 at 6:54pm Carmine, I have seen and used an Oreck, and I can't imagine any circumstances were I would buy one. If I needed a lightweight vacuum, I'd opt for another brand, such as a Riccar/Simplicity. Carl |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Venson on 04/23/05 at 7:21pm Hi, The direct drive idea I find interesting. Sears has a few rather formidable looking upright models with the same feature too. How well does this idea work? There of course, and would have to be, heat and safety concerns, but I wonder why no one's come up with an electrified brush roll that revolved around its own armature. Something like that could diminish the size of power nozzles and provide bigger design avenues for uprights. Anyway . . . If anyone's maintaining a price watch on the DC15, it's selling in-store and online at J&R for approximately $500. Venson |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/23/05 at 11:04pm Two days after the event in NY and nothing online about the launch. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by vacuuman on 04/23/05 at 11:28pm Carmine: we probably won't carry the DC15. We aren't a Dyson dealer and just have 2 yellow Dysons, one on the floor and one in a box. We only have one to show people what they are and why we don't recommend them. The boxed one is if we get a customer that won't buy anything else. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/24/05 at 5:37am cprohman wrote:
The Freedom Series, excellent choice. However, these are available only through vacuum cleaner stores vice the Oreck. Oreck sends salespersons to your house. And the salespersons deliver bags! When you can't drive, or have physical issues, a shut in, Oreck gets the nod. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/24/05 at 5:47am Chris: The Sears in Woodbrige Va is an outlet store and carries only large appliances, no vacuums. I might visit another Sears or may just wait until the Best Buy launches the DC15 in May, with an opportunity to have it demoed by the BB dyson rep. I'll grade the vacuum and the rep's DC15 demo. Haven't done that in awhile. Vacuuman: Thanks for the response. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/28/05 at 12:35am Lindhaus Diamante and Riccar Radiance sell at higher prices than Dyson DC 15 - $800 and up (??). Are these two vacs better than DC 15? If so how? |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/28/05 at 6:56am With respect to the Riccar Radiance and Simplicity Synergy, yes the retail prices are as you said. But these models are sold through vacuum cleaner stores and there is room for negotiation on the price. I think the Simplicity Synergy which I have seen and used up close and personal is an excellent vacuum and worth the money. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Chris on 04/29/05 at 8:28pm I really didn't expect to see this so soon. DC15 (http://search.ebay.com/Dyson-DC15_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQsacatZ-1QQcatrefZC6QQsargnZ-1QQsaslcZ2QQsadisZ200QQfposZQ5AIPQ2FPostalQQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch) |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Elcleanofreako on 04/30/05 at 1:02am no surprise..Ebay posters often auction new products. ex: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20617&item=4376939360&rd=1 offers Riccar Radiance below list. However, Ebay usually has "not met reserve" gotcha, so often lo-bid price just a mirage. |
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Title: Re: The all new DC15 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/30/05 at 4:21am The Riccar Radiance has been on the market for about a year, maybe more. I have to agree with Chris, the DC15's are too new to be on eBay after just a few weeks. Too soon. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 04/30/05 at 11:45am They need to pull the plug on any dealer that sells on ebay. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/30/05 at 2:14pm I agree. It looks like the majority of these E-bay DC15 sellers may be dealers. Did I count 6 for sale? The DC15 auction expiring today has a high bid of $465. With the other DC15's still on bid for sale, I think today's seller will be hard pressed to get retail of $600. But you never know, we'll have to wait to see. Didn't I read earlier that some dealers are selling the DC15 on the internet for $500? Maybe that explains the e-Bay auctions. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/01/05 at 9:58am Sears first Dyson DC15 ad in todays newspaper. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/01/05 at 11:04am Chris: Do you know what the final bid was for the DC15 auction that expired yesterday? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/01/05 at 11:23am Carmine, no I didn't see the final price on the DC15. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/01/05 at 11:28am Chris wrote:
The last I saw the DC15 auction, the highest bidder was $465 with a $45 shipping fee for a grand total of $510 with no tax. An advantage of selling on e-Bay is that no sales tax is paid. I would think state and federal tax authorities would not look favorably on these transactions because of the tax avoidance. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 05/01/05 at 11:56am By rights, you should declare any taxable income, when selling to individuals. But it's a grey area for many eBay users. What's the difference between listing a few items on eBay and selling them via a newspaper's classified adverts? At what point are you 'running a business'? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Venson on 05/01/05 at 1:39pm I only know that New York State law requires sales tax to be paid by any resident buyer buying from any vendor with premises established within the state. As for personal taxes, I am a skeptic. eBay has become a big, big player and I am caused to wonder if the federal government will much concern itself over as many small sales as executed through eBay and then kill a noted, new American business by insistence that every little penny collected be reported. That would cool down my shopping and or potential selling on eBay in no time For all our technical ability for scrutiny, stuff stills goes on and not without unawareness I feel. There's still lots of fat cats in Washington and drug pushers aren't out of business yet -- and nobody knows? Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 05/01/05 at 2:10pm On a related subject, Some US states require drug dealers to pay tax :- http://www.ksrevenue.org/perstaxtypesdrug.htm If they're caught in possession with un-taxed supplies, the penalties are even more severe. ::) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/01/05 at 3:38pm The infamous Al Capone, head of Murderers Inc, and a resident of Chicago Illinois, was sentenced to 13 years in a Federal penitentary, not for illegal activities, but for failure to pay federal income taxes on the gains from illegal activities. Of course, with Mr. Capone any criminal violation would do. Failure to pay income taxes was the one that was the easiest to prosecute against him and win. Unfortunately (or fortunately), he died in jail, before serving his full sentence, from a venereal disease. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by joethevacman on 05/01/05 at 4:01pm ANYWAYS, that was a nice "display" in this sunday's Sears Ad. $599 -- ouch, that's to much! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/01/05 at 4:03pm M00seUK wrote:
Whenever you make a profit, Uncle Sam is your partner and wants his share. If you make a loss, you're on your own. Uncle allows 3 years out of 5 for a loss in business. Once the losses exceed 3 years, Uncle will refuse to accept and allow the business losses to carryover and offset future profits. The income amount is $600 or more during the year for taxes to be paid by law. He is a benevolent Uncle, but not stupid. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/02/05 at 7:03pm Carmine, No DC15 pre-orders yet :'( This was not the case when the DC14 came out. If I remember correctly I think I had 4 pre-orders on the DC14 Full Gear. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 05/02/05 at 7:41pm Chris: This month's GQ magazine has an article about DC15, under the "Gear You Need" headline. They praise the machine to no end, even comparing it to a Hoover, which they do not like. It's a wonderful editorial, which Dyson did not pay for, and will help sell many DC15's to the type of person who can afford $600 for a vacuum cleaner. I'll bet the new "FHM" magazine (my personal favorite) will also have an editorial about DC15. They sure loved DC07. Will let you know as soon as it arrives. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/02/05 at 9:10pm GQ is an excellent magazine for men. Although, I have not subscribed to GQ for many years, I think it's in a class by itself. It's not for everyone. If I recall at least from years ago when I was a regular aubscriber, GQ has a very small and loyal fan base mostly of men in the 25-45 age group with large discretionary incomes. Is this the market that Sir James Dyson is trying to target with the DC15? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/03/05 at 1:17am So ads are starting to show up in the top magazines like with the DC07 when Dyson first launched in the US. I don't recall seeing any DC11 or 14 ads though. dualcyclone wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/03/05 at 6:41am It's not uncommon for magazines to report on vacuum cleaner products. The one recent product that got rave reviews and coverage is the IRobot Roomba. Time, US News and World Report, GoodHousekeeping (which also gave its seal to the Roomba), the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post and many others have run complimentary stories about the Roomba and still do. Conservatively speaking, the world wide sales numbers surpassed the one million mark after the first year of sales. Sales are still robust and the prices have come down. Other vacuum makers have introduced their own versions to compete in a lucrative market. Home Shopping Network sells the top of the line (complete with operating lights) for $189 and no shipping. All major retailers carry the brand and they sell well with no problems and returns. No used or factory reconditioned IRobot Roombas for sale. I haven't looked at eBay to see the current going prices for used ones (if they are even auctioned). At the current new prices, the Roombas are poised to be sold and used in all households regardless of income. It will no doubt be a classsic. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/03/05 at 8:56am Here's something you may like Tom (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46701&item=7512075841&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/f6/87/1f_1_b.JPG |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 05/03/05 at 10:43am dualcyclone wrote:
How do you know that Dyson didn't make a payment to GQ in return for this nice review? It's really quite common for magazines like GQ to blend editorials with advertisements. Did GQ purchase the Dyson on their own, or did Dyson send it to them? Would be interested to know how similar the article was to the Dyson press release that likely accompanied the complimentary Dyson vacuum. I expect Dyson will be advertising in either GQ or one of the companies other publications. (YES, THIS IS HOW MARKETING WORKS.) What qualifications does GQ have for testing vacuums? Did they look at how much dirt the Dyson removed from the rug using standard industry tests? No, I don't think so. I bet they are impressed by how the vacuum looks, the high price, and that they think the vacuum is manufactured in England. (No, it's manufactured in MALAYSIA.) Fortunately, Consumer Reports isn't dazzled by flashy looks and features of questionable value. Personally I found the DC15 to be kind of annoying for vacuuming long hallways since the DC15 seems to want to turn. Turning on a dime isn't all that much fun when you want the vacuum to go straight. With all the improvements to the DC15 brush roll, perhaps it will remove more dirt from the rug. Perhaps it will clean up to 50% as well as the Windtunell (up from 30%). |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/03/05 at 12:45pm Sold my first ball today..... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 05/03/05 at 1:46pm Come, now Carmine. Of course there are Roombas on Ebay, about 4 pages worth. You can buy almost anything on EBay. The going price appears to be about $50-100 for a used one, $150-190 for new. Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 05/03/05 at 9:27pm Chris: I love that Dyson DC15 Demo rug. Where did you get it? Is that a DC01 in the background? Don't you think Carmine's little comment about Roomba is funny? I don't mean funny as in 'ha ha', I mean funny as in 'odd' or 'queer'. I mean really, that anyone would really be amazed after spending up to $300 for that machine, which is a JOKE. I cleans nothing. It's just a battery powered Bissell carpet sweeper (roomba has NO suction) married to my kid brother's toy Robot that bangs into things, reverses, and bangs into something else. A VACUUM, it's CERTAINLY NOT! A WASTE OF MONEY...Now that fits the Roomba to a "T". To RAT: GQ praised the DC07 but NEVER ran an advertisement. I suspect that Dyson won't advertise the DC15 in GQ either. However, it's interesting that a REPORTER for the magazine used and loved the machine enough to write an article. As to your comment about the Windtunnel removing more dirt from the rug than a Dyson, I beg to differ. Have you ever seen a used Windtunnel? They suffer from clogged filters within a few minutes of use. A Hoover will NEVER remove more dirt from the rug, over a period of time, than a Dyson. It cannot. It has that stupid old filter, which is nothing more than the filthy old wet/dry vac made into an upright. But you cannot blame Hoover. It's the best they can do with their outdated technology - shaking their heads while their sales (and profits) slip by like Carmine's youth. Pity the poor Hoover company and their lame attempts at copying the Dyson. You know what they say, a copy only flatters the original. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/03/05 at 9:28pm GQ May 2005 By Kevin Sintumuang: While we've been drooling over Dyson vacuum cleaners for years--any appliance that has been displayed in the Museum of Modern Art is worthy of such adoration--the British manufacturer's latest is also its greatest. Because this one is all about that ball. Located at the base the DC15, which comes out this month, is a polyurethane ball that allows you to vacuum more efficiently by creating a greater range of motion. Instead of constantly shuffling your feet back and forth at if you were swing dancing with your vacuum, you can now steer the DC15 around potted plants and table legs with ease. In fact, it's so maneuverable that you can vacuum nearly 360 degrees around yourself while standing in place--try that with a Hoover. Balls aside, the DC15's telescoping wand, seventeen-foot hose, and onboard attachments make quick work of any cleaning chore. And as with all Dysons, no bag is needed with the DC15. When the clear bin if full (there's something very satisfying about seeing the amount of dirt you've caught), remove it, pull the trigger, and empty the dust into the garbage. If you've eve seen James Dyson shilling his invention on television, talking about airflow, cyclones, and centrifugal force, you already know that Dysons, unlike other vacuums, don't lose suction. Which is true. Dysons suck like no other. And we mean that in the most positive way. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/03/05 at 9:36pm Tom, The rug is on ebay UK. Starting bid £2.99 which is (Approximately US $5.67) the seller is willing to ship it to the US. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/04/05 at 6:41am cprohman wrote:
I'm not surprised. A car purchased for $13,000 in Jan 2005 and owned by Cardinal Ratzinger sold recently on eBay for $80,000. (as now in Pope Benedict XV1). Also a consecated host from the requiem Mass of Pope John Paul 11 was listed on eBay. It sold for $2000 to a Brother Knight of Columbus who ensured the proper care and disposition. Dual: You were probably too young to witness first hand the Regina Electrik Broom and the impact on the vacuum industry. I'd say the closest thing to the Regina broom phenomenon is the IRobot Roomba which bills itself as a "vac." It's also more "Jetson cool" as some may say than any current "vac" on the market save the Airrider (perhaps) which has its beginnings years before by HOOVER. I predict the IRobot will rival and surpass the Regina broom and Dirt Devil handvacuum sales. I wouldn't be at all surprised if every household in America buys and uses at least one. If you want to laugh, you can start now. But remember the age old adage: He who laughs last, laughs best. As in haha! ;D BTW what ever happened to the dyson robotic vacuum? Wasn't that in the makings for production and export? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/04/05 at 6:54am Chris wrote:
Congrats. Friend or family member? Or outright sale? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/04/05 at 7:51am That's a outright. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 05/04/05 at 12:39pm dualcyclone wrote:
Hoover invented the vacuum cleaner. Anything Dyson does is a copy of what others have done in the past. Cyclonic technology is nothing new. Your Dyson will never be able to clean as well as a properly maintained Hoover Windtunnel. You know that the Hoover whips the Dyson in industry standard test conditions (removing 70% more dirt), so you make up stories about how the test results would somehow be reversed by some hypothetical test. Where's the proof? Hoover has documented their cleaning abilities. Independent testing labs have verified the results that Hoover Windtunnels remove more dirt than any other vacuum period. You sure are slick Dual. I guess it must be your past experience as a Rainbow salesperson to say whatever is necessary to get a sale. The Dyson's a decent vacuum - a fairly easy to maintain bagless. There's no need to stretch the truth about its cleaning abilities. It's got "fabulous" colors and a space age look. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/04/05 at 1:38pm Dyson sold 891,000 vacuums last year in the U.S. Does anyone know how many Hoover sold? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/04/05 at 3:41pm Chris: HOOVER sells 10-12 million units every year and has for the recent past years. HOOVER captures 50-65 percent of the overall new vacuum sales every year. Dyson will NEVER compete with those sales numbers. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/06/05 at 8:58pm Lot's of disappointed people calling this week wanted to order the DC15 in time for mothers day. I am really floored that Dyson wasn't prepared for this weekend. This could've been the perfect timing for the DC15 but they missed the boat by not letting us dealers have it in time. I had a couple even ask if they could pay extra so they could have one by Sunday. I lost about 5 or 6 orders this week :-[ this is the most ever.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 05/06/05 at 10:08pm HOOVER sells 10-12 million units every year and has for the recent past years. HOOVER captures 50-65 percent of the overall new vacuum sales every year. Dyson will NEVER compete with those sales numbers. Carmine D. ------------------------------------------------------ Dyson is smart enough to concentrate on profit, not market share. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/07/05 at 1:38am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
An update based on information provided by Raymond Arroyo on the EWTN (the Catholic news station). Ebay, fearing a boycott by Catholics and others, forced the seller of the consecrated Host (a North Dakota man)to withdraw the auction and properly dispose of the sacred Host. THe 1989 Golf fromerly owned by Cardinal Ratzinger sold for almost $250,000 and received over 8 million bids, an eBay record. While this has nothing to do with the purpose of the Forum, I wanted to set the record staright on the the information I previously provided. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/07/05 at 1:44am Chris wrote:
I am not an advocate for buying and giving vacuum cleaners as Mother's Day gifts. Having said that, I'm sure there will be other gift giving occasions, or reasons, for these buyers to make the purchases (IF THEY REALLY WANT TO). I've had many customers say, after learning that I was out of stock on a particular make or model, I would have bought if............. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 05/07/05 at 9:50pm Linens&Things had DC15 so I tried it again (rug was flat industral type): Swivel nozzle easier to steer than most uprights (like Flair and Felix), but vac felt clunky, heavy, kinda hard to push, plastic bits popped, creaked (awful lot of moving parts!), suction motor quiet, powernozzle loud and pushed litter in front rather than sucking it up. Seems better for big spaces with many obsticles ..vs.. smaller apartment. Wish Dyson had copied Hoover Flair but with cyclone rather than Flairs' tiny filter - could probably sell for half of DC15 while sucking up competition. Lindhaus Dynamic I tried while getting Bosch bags was quiet, much better brushroll picked up everything, but hard to do tight turns with, used unimpressive paper bags. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/09/05 at 5:24pm I saw the DC15 The Ball» commercial today while watching Oprah. And saw it again on the HGTV channel. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 05/09/05 at 10:34pm I saw the commercial also. It was very well thought out and well done. I also see the Hoover commercial often and still enjoy them like I am seeing them for the first time. :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JD on 05/10/05 at 3:15pm Well I've just ordered my DC15 The Ball here in the UK, so should get it shorthly. Just the standard model. I enquired how it was selling, very good % in the first 2 months of sale in the UK. I also enquired about the performance of the DC15 and was told although it's not as powerful as the DC07 it easier to move compared to the DC07. I was also told that it will pickup the same amounts due to the brushes being lower than on the DC07 and the smaller airways which I'm told makes the air flow faster so infact the performance is about the same as the DC07 overall! I'll will post a reply on here once I have used it! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/10/05 at 5:23pm Mike_W. wrote:
I like the HOOVER commercial because it is honest and not hype. It is very complimentary of dyson vacuums citing all the pluses and the awards that attract buyers and users to dyson vacuums. It even showcases dyson vacuums. Then HOOVER makes the final point of what a vacuum is suppose to do: Pick up the deep down embedded dirt and grit in your rug. Exactly what HOOVER Windtunnels do and do better than any other vacuum including the dyson. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/10/05 at 6:57pm "Pick up the deep down embedded dirt and grit in your rug" Pick up the deep down embedded dirt, grit in your rug and also the rug fibers. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike__P on 05/10/05 at 9:50pm Come on Chris, it doesn't do you any service to continue to claim that windtunnels are damaging to carpets. I happen to own a DC07 and like the machine but would also prefer a better brushroll. I owned a windtunnel prior to the dyson, and it did not do any damage to my carpets. My mother who has mostly berber carpet has used the self propelled windtunnel for over six years has not had any problems with carpet damage. This is also considering that berber is very easy to damage by catching a loose strand. I really like the idea of the DC15, but the price is too much for me to stomach, considering I have only had the DC07 for two years. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/12/05 at 5:10pm From Amazon: These are the newest and coolest products our customers of Kitchen & Housewares are buying. This list, updated daily, is based entirely on purchase (http://www.amazon.com/gp/earlyadopter/browse.html/103-9001909-7924644?categoryID=11&filterID=-1) Looks like The Ball is doing just fine. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/12/05 at 5:29pm Chris: Did you notice the glearing error in the motor specs? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/12/05 at 5:34pm Yes I did, but come on it's Amazon ;D Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by joethevacman on 05/12/05 at 8:34pm Made in the USA? Oh come on now.. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/13/05 at 4:41am My dear Wife and I caught the dyson Ball commercial last night for the first time on TV's Survivor. I didn't say anything waiting for my dear Wife's reaction. She made me laugh. She thought dyson was suggesting that the vacuum would be an excellent dancing partner while you'll vacuuming! When I told my dear Wife the price, she nearly went into shock. This from the Wife of a seasoned vacuum professional for over 50 years and we have been married almost 35! At least we don't have to look at Sir James anymore, just hear his voice. It's off to Best Buy today to see if the DC15 is in. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/13/05 at 1:13pm 3 page Dyson DC15 ad in this months Elle Decor June issue. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/13/05 at 1:42pm Well, much to my surprise, the DC15 is a winner in many ways except the price. If I were inclined to buy a dyson vacuum, it would be the DC15. I like it as much for it's handling as its performance. It performs much better than the DC07 and 14 on rugs. The Best Buy rep has been out of pocket for awhile and the sales staff at Best Buy led by Dan and Steve demoed the DC15 for my dear Wife and I. It quickly drew a small crowd of interested by standers. A good sign. The DC15 has been in stock for two weeks and Dan says he's sold 2 in that time. I will probably have this one for a household user in part because of the better brush roll and quiet operation. But not a keeper due to the bagless design. Not my or my dear Wife's preference in vacuums. Bagged for us is more convenient. The DC15 design puts me in mind of the HOOVER Floor washer of the late 50's. Unlike the DC15, the handle on the floor washer stayed in the user ready position all the time. THe DC15 can't. It's an anoyance to have to reposition the DC15 to the standup position. From a practical standpoint, I like to walk away from the vacuum while it is running and leave in the ready position. If you try this maneuver with the DC15, it's down to the floor in the prone position. I also would like a headlight and a manual rug adjustment for the price (no surprise). I don't like the clunky-ness of the handle release and the tendency for the hose to undo when you pick up the DC15 by the hose/handle grip. My compliments to Sir James for a nice design and functional performace. Also my thanks to the staff at Best Buy for their superb assistance (as usual). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/13/05 at 1:50pm I agree, but with it wasn't a surprise for me. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Karl on 05/13/05 at 5:26pm Carmine, thanks for the honest appraisal. So if you had $600 and you only had the choice of a DC15 or a Felix, which would you take home, and why? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/13/05 at 5:36pm FWIW: I also sold 2 in the last 2 weeks. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/13/05 at 5:41pm Karl wrote:
You put me on the spot because I haven't used the Felix, nor my dear Wife. So I would say I'd have to try the Felix first and compare before answering. My dear Wife would choose the Felix because of the weight and size. But she would cringe at the price. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/14/05 at 7:02pm The Vacuum's Design Moment By Thomas K. Grose (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/050523/23eespotlight.htm) Eventually, Dyson wants to introduce a robotic cleaner. His team set aside a prototype three years ago because it would have cost between $3,000 and $5,000, but they're working on reductions. "We think we've done that," he says. "But we made a conscious decision not to go into that market yet." WHY NOT! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 05/14/05 at 9:40pm Does anyone know why the floor tool is not available for the DC15 Ball? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/14/05 at 10:03pm Dyson will release the accessories for the 15 in the Fall Bruce. OT: How's the Baja Espuma working out? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 05/15/05 at 5:01am Actually I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Hopefully this week :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 05/15/05 at 7:38am Since Carmine was asking what happened to the robotic Dyson cleaner... I first heard about Dyson developing a robotic vacuum cleaner in around 1997. I was reading a PC PRO (computer) magazine article on technology of the future. It had a brief feature on James Dyson, who was quite unknown by many people at the time. He was quoted as saying it was something that they'd looked in to, but that they weren't going to be releasing a product for the foreseeable future. Fast forward a few years to around 2001, Dyson announces photos and details of the DC06, an autonomous robotic cleaner that has all the performance of an upright. http://www.21stcentury.co.uk/images/robotics/dyson_dc06.jpg Dyson don't usually announce any new products until at least a month before they're available in the stores, but the DC06 announcement was off the back of the Electrolux product launch at around about the same time, to demonstrate that they had developed the first 'proper' fully working robotic cleaner. The only issue it appeared to have was the price; 2000 GBP. Great value for overnight cleaning of large commercial floor areas, less realistic for your household user. Hey, I mean for 2000 you could pay a (human) cleaner to vacuum your floors, dust the mantelpiece, clean work surfaces, empty the bins - twice a week for 2 years! At that price, the product could only ever appeal as a toy / status symbol. A lot of good thought went in to the design of the DC06, though. It has 3 on-board computers, 70 sensors; proximity, infrared, even pyro detectors to prevent it from charging in to open fireplaces or house pets! It generally doesn't require (but can use) portable threshold locators, won't fall downstairs and has a multicoloured 'mood light' to show you what it's thinking e.g. navigating an object. The big yellow button on the top of the device is a 'light compass'. Kinda like a GPS receiver, but using ambient light sources to track it's position in the room. The carrying handles on each side flip out, so that you can carry it around the house, much like a suitcase. It also features the Dyson Digital (SR) motor, (similar to the DC12), the development of which was likely to been created with a power cell cleaner in mind (my guess, if anyone knows any different...) It would appear to be as perfect as any announced robotic domestic cleaner could be. So what's been holding it back over the years? I asked this question at the DC15 launch event. Basically, it's the battery technology. They've developed ways to make the power cells provide mains voltage performance, suitable for the application - but it isn't cheap, hence the retail price. It hasn't got a chance of being mass-market at that price and up until the technology is developed to provide a mass-market cleaner that performs as good as an upright, James won't give the go-ahead. Given the JD quote given above, one might gauge that Dyson have a refined, affordable robotic product 'waiting in the wings'. But with healthy projected unit sales for the existing cleaners and a reputation still being gained in the US market - a cynic might suggest they're choosing their timing wisely! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/20/05 at 9:26am Dyson launched The Ball in Ireland and France this week. He's not wasting any time with this model. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by joethevacman on 05/22/05 at 8:54pm I was in Sears today and walked by the Dyson DC15 display (coundn't try it -- i had an impatient woman with me). The sign said "$579.99 As Advertised." Already at a sale Price? Whats going on or am I wrong? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 05/22/05 at 9:21pm saw ball at bed_bath_and_beyond and at local best_buy. It is getting around. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Venson on 05/22/05 at 9:36pm Hi, My local Sears is selling the DC15 at the standard asking price of $599.99. Your price is at least twenty-bucks better than any I have heard of so far except for a misprint. No matter what the price -- where I live, we have 8.625 percent on the dollar sales tax here. That approximate $50.00 additional will probably encourage some shoppers to wait awhile price drops on Dyson if they're interested. For the "I gotta have it now" folks, the best way to acquire this Dyson is to first physically test it out wherever you may and then order online from a locale that does not require having to kick in sales tax. I wouldn't be surprised, considering the price, if free shipping won't be included too. I have this funny feeling that the "Ball" may well be wholesaling for no more than the $350 it should be selling for in the first place -- if that. In any event -- the race is not given to the swift but to he who holds out to the end . . . In this case -- the consumer or Dyson. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/23/05 at 5:37pm Sears carries a DC14 dyson all gray model called the dyson complete vacuum. It sells for $579.99 and comes with these extra tools: Sears exclusive soft dusting brush; Sears exclusive mattress cleaning tool; the dyson low reach floor tool and dyson mini turbine head. The Sears model competes with the dyson Best Buy model (which is made and sold exclusively by Best Buy stores) for the same price. Sears is selling the DC15 for $599.99 in the Washington DC metropolitan area. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 05/24/05 at 10:53pm Dyson pricing allows a 33% profit to the dealer on ALL models. So, the $600 Dyson costs about $400 at wholesale. Most vac shops want to make quite a bit more profit than that on the sale of one machine, and that 'low profit' is the reason most vacs shops do not carry Dyson. To me, $200 profit is fantastic, but when considering the extremely high profit to the dealer for Miele, Sebo, etc. ($500 to $600 per machine) and even Simplicity/Riccar ($300 to $500 profit per machine), the Dyson's profit structure just doesn't lend itself to vac shop sales. However, it's wonderful for Sears (where the salespeople make a 10% commission on Dyson) and Best Buy (no commission to the salespeople at Best Buy). |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/25/05 at 8:22pm If you believe that the independents like yourself are the best venue for selling dysons, then the scenario that you describe is problematic for dyson. If I recall correctly you have always said that dysons are best left to the vacuum experts like yourself to sell to the public because of the dyson design and function. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 05/25/05 at 9:09pm one thing about ball I don't get: with powerbrush off, main vac motor is well muffled (quieter than DC07, a little quieter than DC14), makes ball nice alternative to high priced euros for quiet cleaning. Now Turn on power brush - ball sounds like cheap bissel digipro or other boxhouse vac. tried three samples, all the same. brush whine is nasty high frequency. wot happened? not __that__ hard to make brush quiet! Sebo, Miele, Lindhaus know how! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 05/26/05 at 12:40am I find just the opposite to be true. The DC15 is much quieter than the previous DC07 and 14 models. There is a slight high pitched whistle that originates in the cyclonic section of the vacuum, but then again, the 07 also has this whistle. The power brush seems to be smooth and quiet as well.. and much more aggressive than the previous models. I believe a geared drive will always be somewhat noisier than a cogged belt drive. When I compare the DC15 to my Miele Silver Moon with SEB236 power nozzle (having cogged belt), the Miele is still quite a bit quieter overall. But I'm still very pleased with the sound levels of the DC15. The number one feature I enjoy on the DC15 is the ability to easily remove both brush rolls using no tools for easy cleaning. The Miele is impossible without first disassembling the entire head. The Miele has "substantially" more air flow over the Dyson. The Baird air flow meter registers a little over 1 for the Dyson, but the Miele is in excess of 6. And that was with the dust bag being 1/2 full! Of course the Miele costs two times that of a DC15. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 05/26/05 at 12:54pm perhaps ball brush motor noise sample-sample variation?? Sears samples I tried were early ones. will try newer ones at new stores and see. by comparison, Miele/Bosch power nozzles very quiet. Bissell Digipro about same as ball (hi freq whine). Interesting Ball airflow is so low - does Ball use same vac motor as DC14? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/26/05 at 5:07pm OT: Strange, for the first time in month this weeks top seller "for me" are the DC07's. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/27/05 at 4:13am Chris: Have you lowered the price on the DC07's? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 05/27/05 at 5:05am I have not found the nozzle of the DC15 to be loud. The machine sounds like a canister w/ a power nozzle. There is going to be some noise from power nozzles. I have found that the traditional power nozzles, w/ cogged belts, to be noisier than most. There are some exceptions like the SEBO. I have always found the original design Eureka-built power nozzles to be the most quiet, IMHO. As for the Bissell Digipro power nozzle(Samsung), I have found them to be quiet. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/27/05 at 7:52am No changes in the prices. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/27/05 at 2:59pm Chris wrote:
Dyson SRP? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/27/05 at 3:22pm Yes at the retail prices and I sold another 07 today. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 05/27/05 at 10:37pm Carmine: To be perfectly honest with you, I carry only the DC07, but do not display it (as Chris can tell you, he has visited with me and has seen my shop). When Dyson was new, and not at every big box store, I sold a ton of them. Now they are everywhere. I still love the machine. I sell them to people who ask for them. But the vacuums I have on display (and promote heavily in the store) are the Air-Way Signature Series (the only reason the machine exists is because of me), the Fuller Brush canister and upright line, the Carpet Pro line, the Sanitaire 782 (love that machine), the Rainbow (the E2 as well as rebuilts), and the ReadiVac (for customers wanting an Oreck). All bag type machines. The Dyson is sold if someone asks for it or about it. The profit from bag and filter and belt sales pays my mortgage. I toyed with the idea of franchising a "Dyson store" like the Oreck franchises. And one day, I want to do that. AFTER bag and belt and filter sales pay off my house. I'm not stupid enough to walk away from the tremendous profit in bags, belts, and especially Hepa filters. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/28/05 at 4:01am Chris wrote:
EXCELLENT. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/28/05 at 4:12am In the last year since we exchanged messages on this particular subject you have had a substantial change of heart and mind. At that time if I remember correctly you were copntemplating using the Dyson name in your store name. If I also recall correctly, I was very suspect of specializing in one brand (dyson) and said the same to you. I think I used the age old adage: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." I have seen your changes and mentioned them along the way: recall my post on the fuller brush canister (a bagged canister) and your one time authorization by Simplicity (before you went totally dyson) and Simplicity pulled the sales authorization. You may have sold the Freedom series line, a nice alternative to Oreck. I noted you said you have Readivac as an option now. Whether you listened to me or not is irrelevant. You eventually came to the same conclusion I had and advised to you. Offer customers options, price fairly, be honest, stand behind your vacuum products with parts and service, and customers will recommend you and keep coming back (for years and even generations). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 05/31/05 at 2:00pm tried another ball at BedBathandBeyond; this one newer than Sears one tried earlier. Easy to manuever as before, and Brush a bit quieter, but vac motor louder. Sheesh...sample sample variation I guess. setup was nice - video monitor next to display running Dyson's latest ball promo. At least 4 chains in area carry ball now. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 05/31/05 at 5:51pm I placed my 2nd order for 5 more DC15's today and was told there on back order for a while. Either it's selling fast or Dyson didn't supply the US with enough. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 05/31/05 at 7:07pm Carmine: I've not had a change of heart. I still like the Dyson best over all other vacuums, it's the only one to keep the suction at the same level time after time. However, customers are, for the most part, not smart enough to understand it. There's no reason to re-educate the public. It's easier to just sell them bag vacuums and bags. Note I said easier. And certainly more profitable. If people are that stupid, well, let them pay for it. As long as there are people who don't think vacuums should cost more than $100 and don't mind wasting money on bags, I'll be there to take their money. A fool and his money...but then you know all about fools and money - being a former Hoover dealer. As for Simplicity, I don't like their sales quotas. There's no way anyone is going to tell me I HAVE to sell X-number of vacuums per year. I sold a ton of Simplicity, including the freedoms, but hated Ken Tacony's quota. The CarpetPro and Fuller Brush uprights are the same thing. Customers see the metal bottom plate and metal brush roller (at $200 less than a Simplicity) and they buy the thing. People tend to not know what to say when they ask me what I use at home, and I say a Dyson. I then tell them Dysons are very expensive and that's usually the end of it. Now that Wally World is getting their Dyson DC07's (along with Target, Wally World will be the only major retailer to carry DC07). It's a great day for Dyson, they are selling DC07 for FULL PRICE ($399) at Wally World. They (Dyson) didn't lower their price ONE BIT to get into wally mart. Most likely the only manufacturer EVER to not lower their price. July 6 is the launch date for the Wally World machine. Sears is getting an all red model DC07, to be sold at $429 with a turbo brush to replace the yellow $399 DC07 they'll be losing. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/31/05 at 7:40pm Have you adopted the Dyson name for your business as you once planned? I was NEVER exclusively a HOOVER dealer. NEVER. HOOVER sought me out in the mid 50's to sell and service their vacuums, not the other way around. I was concurrently a warranty dealer for HOOVER, WESTINGHOUSE, EUREKA, and PANASONIC. I mentioned that I was one of the first if not the FIRST warranty dealer for Panasonic in NJ in the early 70's. I sold and serviced all makes, I sold new and rebuilt, I stocked all vacuum parts, genuine and replacement (if worthy) and NEVER knocked any vacuum brand in favor of another. I was an equal opportunity vacuum cleaner business. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 05/31/05 at 8:17pm Chris, This not cutting DC-15 down. Any radical change in a product will usually bring about a cautious start. Get the bugs out of the line and gradually increase production. It would really be bad to get an abundance of cleaners out there and it falls on it's face shortly after it comes out. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/01/05 at 1:41pm I do understand what you mean... tiger21 wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/03/05 at 10:30am "Now that Wally World is getting their Dyson DC07's (along with Target, Wally World will be the only major retailer to carry DC07). It's a great day for Dyson, they are selling DC07 for FULL PRICE ($399) at Wally World. They (Dyson) didn't lower their price ONE BIT to get into wally mart. Most likely the only manufacturer EVER to not lower their price. July 6 is the launch date for the Wally World machine. Sears is getting an all red model DC07, to be sold at $429 with a turbo brush to replace the yellow $399 DC07 they'll be losing. " Dualcyclone You may be talking too soon. Sir James Dyson will kow tow to Wal-Mart on lowering the DC07 prices. Remember there is a very lucrative market in DC07 refurbs with new vacuum warranties. Kohls carries the dyson upright line and regularly sells the All Floors for $404 and the Animal for $450 (both DC07 models). Consequently, the DC07 Yellow sits on the shelf at Kohls collecting dust. The DC07 Yellow will sit at Wal-Mart too if priced at $399 vice the more competitievly priced and appointed dysons elsewhere for sale. LNT and BBB typically allows customers to take the 20 percent discount on new dysons even though the coupon says it won't. All you have to do is ask for it. Consumers are not naive and bashful when it comes to spending their money. Wal-Mart built a business from getting the lowest prices from retailers ALWAYS. It's their mantra. Dyson will not be an exception. I predict the introduction of the dysons in Wal-Mart and K-Mart (with the merge with Sears) will wreak more havoc and violations on Dyson's MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/03/05 at 11:32am The DC15 is now launched in Austria, France, Germany, Ireland and Italy. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 06/03/05 at 1:07pm walmart often prides self on cheapest, not newest. could be very nice niche for Dyson to sell cheaper/older product there, and keep bells and whistles on higher end models for vac stores, etc. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/05 at 11:07am On another thread, mmc, a dyson insider, stated that the Wal-Mart Carpet model, made and marketed exclusively by Wal-Mart for the last year, has been discontinued. THis is the model without the brush control knob. It was sold at Wal-Mart at a discount from the Yellow DC07 in the $329 range, in part, because it was made specially for Wal-Mart and lacked the brush control on off knob. mmc says the reason for the discontinuation (correct me if I'm wrong) is because Wal-Mart will carry and sell the All Floors DC07 model. THe launch of this model is July 2005 according to Dualcyclone (on this thread above). An "All Floors" dyson model is sold at Kohls for $404. A similar dyson model (to the All Floors) is also sold at Sam's for $404. At Sam's this current price is down from the initial $479, then the 2004 Chistmas Sale price of $429, and is now regularly sold NOW at SAM's for $404. What do you think the Wal-Mart price will be? More? Less? Equal? Let's see where the DC07 prices go. Competition breeds price reduction and is GOOD for customers and BAD for the independent vacuum stores. My sense FWIW is this: With the DC07 Wal-Mart model (w/o brush control knob) dropped, the prices for the new DC07 Yellows (the ones left for as long as they are around for sale) can go to $329 (not counting the on-going big retailer store sales of 10-15-20 percent off the $399 retail). The DC07 refurb market already has and will continue to exert pressure on the new DC07 prices, as the lowest priced dysons, to go down further from MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/04/05 at 11:35am It looks to me that Wal-Mart will carry the Dyson's but only online. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 06/04/05 at 1:20pm There is no question in my mind that the DC07 All Floors will remain at $399 for quite some time. BTW, The DC07 Carpets model retailed for $349. The DC07 All Floors will be in most stores and has already started showing up in some stores. Get ready! The Sam's Club model retails at $429. If there is a club that has it lower, it is because they are in a pricing war with a local Costco (even though they sell the exact same model for $429). These stores can battle back and forth as much as they want, they're only going to hurt each other's bottom line. The pricing on all Dyson's has not gone down since the arrival to the U.S. almost 3 years ago. Why would Dyson lower their prices when they have an almost 24% market share on dollars? Pricing will remain the same for as long as I can tell. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/04/05 at 5:14pm Now that I vacuum with the DC15 I see no reason for Dyson to even bother with the 07/14, those models can't even compare to the 15. The 15 is just amazing and my carpet never looked better. The newly designed beater bar should carry over to any new models coming soon "DC16, 17 etc." and of courser a canister. Two thumbs up James Dyson :D |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/05 at 8:24pm The difference in the DC15 rug performance vice the DC07 and DC14, the Ball feature aside (not to discount it's effectiveness), is the industry standard brush roll. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/05 at 8:56pm "The Sam's Club model retails at $429. If there is a club that has it lower, it is because they are in a pricing war with a local Costco (even though they sell the exact same model for $429). These stores can battle back and forth as much as they want, they're only going to hurt each other's bottom line. The pricing on all Dyson's has not gone down since the arrival to the U.S. almost 3 years ago. Why would Dyson lower their prices when they have an almost 24% market share on dollars? Pricing will remain the same for as long as I can tell. " mmc Thank you for the response. The next time you are in Woodbridge, we can visit the Sam's Club store (affiliated with Wal-Mart) together and scope out the dyson pricing and sales. The turgoise DC07 model IS and HAS been regularly priced at this store for months at $404 (before applicable store discounts). You know the extras this model offers over the DC07 Yellow. Consumers would buy the Sam's Club model every time over the DC07 Yellow at $399. Dyson is not lowering the prices, the retailers who carry and sell dysons are lowering the prices. Why? Good old fashion marketing. You can't continue to sell the same product for the same price FOREVER and expect people to continue to buy it. At some point in the market cycle the product stops moving off the shelf. The market answer: lower prices. At 3 years into the dyson vacuum market cycle in the USA, and with the full price buyers out of the buying market now, the big box retailers are ripe to cut the dyson prices. Unlike the independent vacuum stores, Dyson USA has little to no influence over the likes of Wal-Mart, Sams Club, Costco, Kohls, Target, Best Buy, and Sears, Dyson's primary sellers. It's grin and bear it or else. The space that the dysons use up at Sam's can easily be filled with the HOOVER S3630 Windtunnel canisters which sell for $139. And selling more and more every month. That's the reason prices go down from MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/05/05 at 4:54pm Elcleanofreako wrote:
True. The Friday shareholders' meeting was very poignant. Alot of good perspectives and some not so good. In the next year a new store will open every day, it's still the NUMBER 1 retailer in the USA, 3700 stores now. BUT stock price is down 16 percent over the last year, same store sales grew at a lackluster 2.9 percent, some PR issues with unions and lawsuits. Target's stock price on the other hand is up 16 percent and while it has half as many stores is extremely competitive with Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart management expects to implement changes. More upscale merchandise to cater to people who want to spend more for quality, shorter checkout lines, eliminating the occurences of out of stock items (one of my personal pet peeves), dressing up the stores to compete better with Target and Kohls, keeping the the restrooms clean, merchandise looking neat and tidy on the shelves, etc. The things that are keeping customers away now. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/09/05 at 9:04am I haven't seen the Hoover commercial yet. Just wondering, is this the one that's on the Hoover site? If it doesn't play the Dyson/Hoover ad reload until it does. Hoover (http://hoover.com) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/14/05 at 12:09pm Anyone have a chance to demo the DC15 at home yet? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 06/14/05 at 1:14pm My parents have ordered a DC15, arriving tomorrow (weds), to replace a 6-year old DC04. I'm keen to see what my mum makes of it. She says she loves the DC04, but in recent years, has found it difficult to carry up the stairs and move around - but wasn't keen to replace it with a canister. Hopefully the lowered carrying handle, metal soleplate and 'The Ball' on the DC15 will do the job, but if not, there's 4-weeks within which it can be returned. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 06/14/05 at 2:56pm The DC15 will be heavier than the DC04. Perhaps she should keep both vacuums, and leave one on each floor so she won't have to carry one up and down the stairs. Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 06/14/05 at 3:57pm It's not so much the weight that's the problem (with the stairs) - it's the floor clearance when using the carrying handle. I'm quite tall and have no problem lifting it, but for my mum, it tends to get 'bumped' up the stairs, one by one! I'm hoping the extra inches on the DC15 will make the difference. Although, it's still to be tested in practice. I guess there's the lightweight DC03, but it's the same tech generation as the DC04 and a way smaller bin. It would be good if Dyson were to release an updated model, esp. for the US market, where some forum posters here, see a market. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 06/14/05 at 5:29pm dyson should consider lightweight version, perhaps as "stick vac", that could do what Flair/Bissell/Whatever does without having stupid clogamatic filters to deal with. If priced $200 or so, would be great alternative to Miele stickvacs. and positively clean up the Shark toys. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/14/05 at 7:26pm I suggest to some of my customers that they can also remove the bin then take the vacuum upstairs. The bin weights about 5 lbs, then again that makes two trips. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 06/15/05 at 3:32am And removing the bin leaves you with no handle to lift the vacuum with. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/15/05 at 8:18am I use handle when I lift the vacuum. Bruce wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/19/05 at 12:07pm The Target store in Woodbridge VA now stocks and sells the DC15 for $599. Lowes Regional Store in Woodbridge VA for now at least sells only the DC14 dysons starting at $429 for All Floors, then the Low Reach and the Animal. No DC07 or DC15. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/19/05 at 12:27pm I can't see Target having any success with the 15. Update: I sold 5 DC15 in the last month or so. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/19/05 at 3:27pm Chris wrote:
Congratulations. Were these sales to persons asking for the DC15, or did you promote them up from a DC07 or 14? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/19/05 at 5:02pm All 5 were orders placed online through my web site on there own without asking about the DC15 over any other model. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/05 at 5:37pm Outstanding. What's your most popular selling dyson? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 06/20/05 at 5:56pm The DC14 Animal is my best seller. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/21/05 at 6:55am I'm not surprised by the DC14. I think the repair cost and inconvenience for maintenance items like the brush and belt changes will hurt customers' popularity eventually for the dyson DC14. Have to wait and see what time and events bring. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/04/05 at 12:41pm Local retailers in Woodbridge VA who carry and sell the Ball tell me they are not selling. Not nearly as good as the DC14 when it was first launched. Target is offering double points (2 points per dollar) on the purchase of the Ball if charged to the Target credit card. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Venson on 07/04/05 at 1:59pm Hi Carmine, How long does it take for a general price drop, nationwide, on a newly released vacuum to come about. Most people I've talked with are not interested in the "Ball" while the price stands at $600. Thanks, Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/04/05 at 2:02pm The idea of not being able to purchase any accessories for the ball until this spring wasn't a good move. I think once Dyson comes out with DC15 Low Reach, Animal and Full Gear then we should see it selling better. When I heard Dyson was coming out with the DC15 All Floors only I called my Sale Rep and said this wasn't a good idea and told him most customers who emailed ask about the Animal more then any other make. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/04/05 at 5:39pm In the good old vacuum cleaner days, customers could trade in a recent or relatively new model for the latest and greatest model and defray some of the premium price. Not so with the Ball. Dyson did not woo or wow the independent vacuum cleaner stores with the DC07 and DC14. Most independents carry the new dysons as an accomodation to get the dyson repairs and parts (which are lucrative). The customers who bought the DC07 and 14's can't trade up by going to the Ball. It's too soon and the initial customers' premium prices for the dysons have not been recovered by time and use. Dyson sought out the big box retailers for its main channels of sales distributions in the USA. A bad move on their part IMHO. I think you will see more of the "open items" DC14 models in the retailers like Best Buy at discounted prices. They start as much as half and more off the retail price. THe Best Buy in Woodbridge which did this with the DC11 models is also selling DC14's like the Low Reach and Full Access for $250 (starting) with a 10 percent discount every week until sold. And they will deal on the prices. Of course, retailers are feeling the pressure of the HOOVER Fusion already which at $128 will outsell dysons easily on a per unit basis. If dyson doesn't drop prices and deal, it will be doomed in the big box US retailers. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/04/05 at 6:18pm Carmine not sure what you are saying. Is the DC14 Full Access being discontinued at BB? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/05/05 at 3:37am The DC07 models at the Best Buy in Woodbridge Va are no longer sold. "Open Items" of all DC14 models (including the Full Access and Low Reach) are discounted from their retail prices. THe prices begin at $250 and are reduced 10 percent a week until sold. Similar to the DC11's. Draw your own conclusions. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/05/05 at 8:50am OK, looks like I have to clear up a few things..... DC07 has NOT been discontinued. It has come off of the Best Buy planogram to make room for DC15 and DC14 All Floors. DC14 Full Access has NOT been discontinued. Best Buy sells returned vacuums at an open box price (what Carmine was mentioning earlier). No Dysons have been discontinued since DC11, and none are on the horizon. Questions? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 07/05/05 at 12:58pm mmc wrote:
So do your views/opinions represent the official positions of the Dyson company? If I may ask, what is your position with Dyson? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/05/05 at 2:47pm yes, these are official......and I may work for the company, and I might not.......either way, I am privy to the info. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/05/05 at 8:14pm The only thing I'm drawing is that open box or return merchandise is marked down just like anything else sold in BB. You didn't tell me anything new.... Most Big Box stores have the same policy as BB. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/05/05 at 9:37pm I would be very, very concerned if my best account (Best Buy) were selling the top of line DC14 Full Access and Low Reach dysons for more than half off the regular prices. Worse if they can't sell and have to be discounted 10 percent a week more until sold. I'd be there more than once every 3 months asking some questions. These high end DC14 dysons are "open item dysons" spewed on the floor like unwanted junk, missing pieces, damaged, and marked down like cheap throwaway disposables for ridiculously low low prices. And the same new models are sitting on the shelves for $550 to $579 with no customer or store interest. This dyson scene does not give me the impression of a premium high end, high priced vacuum. Or does it say that this account is projecting a premium dyson vacuum image. Quite the contrary IMHO. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/06/05 at 3:22am I was told the DC15 is the reason the DC07 was dropped from the sales venue and taken off the shelves. I was also told the DC15 is not selling well at the Best Buy store in Woodbridge VA. How about other retailers? How's the DC15 doing sales wise? Other new vacuum models are being added to the Best Buy shelves when the DC07 is dropped; Bissell displaced dyson for the premium display space and has kept it; Put all these pieces together and you have a bad dyson picture forming on the horizon in the Best Buy store in Woodbridge. BTW, I still have not seen any dyson sales figures forthcoming for the first half of the year in the USA. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 07/06/05 at 7:55am The picture Carmine paints of this 'woodbridge' store is a riot: inbred, toothless hicks playing the theme to 'deliverance' when you walk in, dirt floors on which to demonstrate discounted Dysons, the 'best buy' sign nailed to a post outside the door. What a hoot. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 07/06/05 at 10:53am dualcyclone wrote:
That's funny, I can't recall Carmine writing anything that insulted or degraded the Best Buy store or personnel. My local Best Buy store has a similar situation to what Carmine described. The market place will decide which companies get prime shelf space. If sales decrease, shelf place will shrink. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 07/06/05 at 12:48pm at our BestBuy: Inexperienced salespeople, yes. Thumpin Gansta Rap from automotive section, yes (S. Calif export). Dysons sold as open box or whatever sometimes, treated like any other appliance, not on gold display stands, etc.. No toothless hicks nor Deliverance either. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/06/05 at 1:59pm The Woodbridge VA Best Buy store is wonderful. THe sales people are first class, knowledgeable, honest, courteous and helpful. I'd buy a vacuum there in a heart beat. I'm not sure I can say the same about the quality of dyson reps they have had over time. I don't think the store staff would say the same about them either. Most of the dyson misinformation that the Best Buy sales staff received came directly from the mouths of the dyson reps. It is very obvious to me the image of the dyson vacuum line is deteriorating among the BEst Buy customers and the store staff. I suspect the first is a result of the high prices and high incidents of problems with dyson purchases (I recall that new dysons are sold missing attachments, instructions and more and customers return them). I suspect the latter is a result of the waning dyson sales. None of the dyson problems are in any way, shape, or form attributed to the Woodbridge VA Best Buy store or its staff. Just as the demise of the DC11 was not the fault of the store and staff. I remind you that the Best Buy store in Woodbridge VA DISCONTINUED selling the DC11 in October 2004 long before the DC11 was scrubbed by the maker. AND discounted the open DC11 items in the same way it is now with the DC14 models. I credit the Best Buy store and its staff for their foresight then and now. I also credit the store and their staff for discounting the premium DC14 models and pricing these "open dysons" at amounts that are more reasonable for the product: Half of regular retail and 10 percent more each week until sold. AND they will deal on these prices. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 07/06/05 at 11:44pm OK, so the characterization of the best buy in woodbridge was overly exaggerated. As someone who admitedly shops Best Buy open boxes for all my electronics I have been looking for the DC 15open box but have yet to find it, one store went as far as telling me that many of thier returns resulted in upgrades in product. As I listen to my Sony Surround sound system bought at nearly half price only missing a box i would have had for ten minutes tops, I just don't think I can credit Sony or the product for the great deal I got. I think a returned product is much more likely the fault of the original salesperson not matching the customer correctly. Thus where I feel you are doing your friends at this Best Buy a disservice. I am as usual interested on your attacks on dyson as a product and company. Going after individuals now seems to be moving to more of a personal level. I am interested in the misinformation you say this dyson employee is saying to this best buy. Could you possibly share that here? In reading your consistent attacks (at times crossing into emotional and personal) on dyson, I find it hard to be moved by your consistent doom and gloom predictions on the dyson. As far as I can tell everytime you predict doom for them I see them showing up in a store I did not see them in the last time I was there and not leaving the others they have been in already. As you are fond of saying "time will tell", but I have to tell you your "predictions" come off as rooting for them to fail not as an objective observer. So come on, stop pretending, come out of the closet, wrap yourself in your soon to be all red hoover flag and stand proud for who you are. ;) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/07/05 at 3:16am I'll make the same offer to you that I do to mmc. When you are in Woodbridge, we can meet and make the rounds to Best Buy and other retailers and do an audit. Read my posts again carefully. I did not say DC15 (yet) open items. I said they are not selling according to the Best Buy staff in Woodbridge! I said in my posts the DC14 Full Access and Low Reach are "open items" selling cheap, cheap. AND the DC07 off the shelves at Best Buy in Woodbridge VA for good (in accordance with the predictions I made in Jan 2005). BTW I've made this offer more than once over six months (as recently as yesterday) and still no acceptance. I have nothing to hide and no personal axes to grind. Haier's buy out (or whoever it turns out to be) of MAYTAG is the subject of other threads on this Forum. I think it is a good thing for MAYTAG-HOOVER and their customers. When HOOVER bashers here were predicting the demise of HOOVER, several here including myself predicted a suitor would buy it up. I said the stock at $9 per share was a good investment. Two suitors to date have made offers for $14 and $16 respectively per share. It will probably be higher by the time the deal is done. I foresee good sales figures for HOOVER this year. Dyson is Malaysian made (population is 65 percent Chinese). What's your point? One of the dyson reps (no longer there) told the Best Buy staff that the DC11 was made in the UK and weighed 16 pounds. Misinformation. And the rep never demoed the DC11 for the staff. I did so they would be prepared for the DC11 launch at the Best Buy in June 2004. What are the sales figures for dyson so far this year? Any actuals or projections? If I'm wrong about their waning sales, show me. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/07/05 at 7:31am Dyson market shares: Dollars 28.8 % Units 9.7% These numbers are thru May, and are a big increase |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/07/05 at 1:33pm Thank you. Do you have dollar amounts or unit numbers with the percentages? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/07/05 at 3:02pm DYSON IS NOT DOING ANY THING TO HURT VAC SHOPS. IF CONSUMERS ARE LOOKING AT 400 TO 600 DOLLAR MACHINES. THEY START GOING TO SPECIALTY SHOPS. I for one am very happy with them advertizing those prices.NO WE DONT SELL DYSON.BUT ATLEAST WE MIGHT HAVE A SHOT AT SELLING A PROFIT MAKING UNIT |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/07/05 at 3:09pm I agree with you old-timer. I've said many times that Sir James Dyson has done more to invigorate the vacuum industry in the USA in several years than all the vacuum makers together have done on purpose in the last 60 years. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/07/05 at 3:26pm The dollar number is approx. $80 mil. in total units (the 3 upright sku's) for the months of March-May |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/07/05 at 7:03pm Ok, let me see if I understand your answer code: $80 M is the total dollar sales for March 1-May 31, 2005? Correct? What is the number of vacuums sold in the same period that correspond to the $80M? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/07/05 at 7:44pm Yes, your time frame is correct. Sorry I don't have total units sold right now, I'm hoping to get those soon |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/08/05 at 6:50am When you do, you should share with the Forum. I find the actual sales information useful to gauge the success or lack thereof of the dyson vacuums, at least on the part of the US vacuum buying consumers. I have a very fond appreciation and respect for numbers. THey are what they are and spreak for themselves. Sharing the truth by giving the numbers is not bragging or hype in my opinion. It's the bottom line. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/11/05 at 6:29am What's the "buzz" on the Ball? I like this product but apparently I may be in the minority. Unlike the dysons before, I haven't heard of any Forum posters who purchased and use the Ball. No dyson advertising? Isn't it strange for a new innovative product not to be advertised? And I don't hear of previous dyson owners on the Forum who are interested in trading up. Trading up is a mainstay of the vacuum industry and has been since the HOOVER era of the 700 (the greater HOOVER). I see limited availability of the DC15 Ball: Best Buy, Sears, a few Target stores. I see very little if any advertising by retailers for the DC15. Early indications are that customers show some interest but no sales to speak of. Most big box shoppers are frightened away by the $600 price. Other specialty retailers who carry dyson have not advertised the Ball at all: BB&B and L-N-T. Notta. Do they even carry it? How about independent vacuum cleaner stores? Are they in line to get the Ball or have they had it? If so what do they say about it's sales? With the obvious importance of this new product to the dyson line and reputation, I'd like to hear from the dyson insiders. How is it doing? Is this a make or break product for Mr. D and his company in the USA? Why do I ask? Because most stores are doing an either/or. Either they carry the DC15 and scrub the DC07, or they pass on the Ball and keep the DC07 and DC14. Has the Ball deflated or just slow to get rolling? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/11/05 at 9:19am Early reveiws for the Ball on Amazon and Epinions are mostly positiive - six positive and one negative. The one negative complained about noise from the clutch when his shag carpet got caught in the brushroll. I really didn't understand his complaint, though. Many reviewers praised the DC15 for excellent suction, good edge cleaning, easy handling, and good cleaning performance. I think that the DC15 will do fine, but at $600 it is at a new pricepoint, and will take longer to get started. How many other vacuums do the big box stores sell in teh $600 price range? My expectation is that one big effect of adding DC15 will be to increase sales of the DC14. $4-500 sounds like a lot of money compared to a $150 vacuum, but when you compare it to a $600 vacuum, $400 sounds much more reasonable. Carl |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/11/05 at 4:07pm DC15 is being advertised on TV and in print. All retailers that carry it are also advertising it. This includes Bed bath, Linens, Kohl's, and Lowes. It is available to all independent dealers. From what I hear, it has been selling well, but slower than anticipated, however its not due to price point. The slower sales are due to the lack of available attachments (which will be available soon). Expect higher sales when attachments come out. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/11/05 at 6:28pm mmc wrote:
I have not seen the Ball anywhere on TV, newspapers, and/or magazines. I saw Best But, Sears, and Target advertize just one time in sunday sales supplement. I have not seen it advertized after or by anyone else. What attachments are holding it back in sales? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 07/11/05 at 6:32pm I promise you its being advertised everywhere......... Right now there are no attachments except for the basics that the All Floors comes with |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 07/11/05 at 8:49pm The DC15 is being advertised on TV. They will show it during shows like "Will & Grace". The "15" is also being sold at Walmart(online only). |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 07/11/05 at 9:24pm verified today. seems exactly same price as all retaliers (sears, bedbathbeyond, linensandthings), I've visited. It's everywhere! Oddly, one hi-end vac shop carrying older Dysons _didn't_ have it. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/11/05 at 10:54pm I noticed some of the online vac shops no longer carry the full line. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 07/12/05 at 3:36am Carl, The one person that gave the DC15 a bad review must not of even owned this model. I have one and know from experience there isn't even a clutch involved like on the DC07's. When something gets caught in the brush-roll, the motor instantly turns off. This design is completely gear driven with no clutch. There's absolutely no noise produced when something like an area rugs fringe gets caught in the brush-roll. It's very sensitive and will immediately turn off. Then you simply remove the obstruction and depress the red button to restart the brush-roll. Much nicer than the DC07 by far. The removable brush-rolls are very easy to take out and clean or replace when they become worn. The dirt containers hinge is very well made and seals tight. Nothing escapes around the seal unlike my DC07 does. I would also rate this vacuum to be about 1/4th to 1/3rd quieter than my DC07 is. So far I'm very pleased with this model. I had one little problem with the brush-roll not turning off when placing the machine in the upright position. The tiny micro-switch was sticking so I sprayed some dry silicone lubricant in the opening and haven't had any problems since. Cleaning performance is excellent and the vacuum is fun to maneuver and use. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/12/05 at 3:37am Why do you think that is the case? (full dyson line not carried on-line any longer by some and vacuum stores not having DC15?) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/12/05 at 10:16am prices are much higher to dealers. Sorry to say vac shops can not support dc 15 sales . The ones with the money wins again. We get the crumbs left over from big retailers, then use us as bobos on warranty issues. Sound like Hoover/ eureka all over again. All the ways to make any profit is drying up CARMINE. Does this sound like the same story we have been hearing for past 30 years. Only the colors have changed. Every year same old stories from manufacturers. Remember the reps from hoover / eureka / health- mor/ panasonic/ royal/ that were going to make us rich. What happened to them. Probaly at best buy/ sears/ target selling vacuums . Yes carmine my friend they cut our throats and then sold us out.............. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/12/05 at 3:33pm Old-timer: I could not have said it better. For the first 8 years in business, I sold ONLY rebuilts with the same guaranty as a new vacuum. When I did carry new, I NEVER was a ONE brand name only. Whether dyson's strategy to market the the Ball in the big box retailers is wise will remain to be seen. If it were me (and he is not), the DC15 would be a vacuum cleaner store exclusive at least for awhile to see how it sells. Then he could have always marketed to the big box retailers. I don't think he can woo and wow the vacuum cleaner stores with the DC15 now. It's too late (IMHO). I said I thought this DC15 was a do or die for dyson for his future in the USA vacuum industry. I think the "attachments" story for slow sales doesn't ring true. It's an excuse. An innovative product is different from the others in the line. You have meet some definite criteria for market success. I'm not sure dyson did with the DC15. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/12/05 at 3:59pm Like I said before. Once Dyson releases the complete DC15 line "Low Reach, Animal and Full Gear" the sales of the DC15 will take off like the DC14. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/12/05 at 8:05pm Chris wrote:
I hope you're right. But I won't hold my breath. The attraction for the DC07 and DC14 are the variations on the theme with the specialty attachments and extra filters. Not so with the Ball. The Ball's attraction is the ball not the attachments. If the Ball doesn't sell, you can give the additional attachments away free, and people still won't bite. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 07/13/05 at 4:34pm Chris wrote:
It's quite likely that Dyson have only released one DC15 model in the US, as to add 3 or more cleaners to the 10 existing upright lines would create more stock holding and consumer confusion. In reality, the DC15 is 'DC14+' and people can simply add carpet care attachments / accessories at the time of sale or have them included as part of a store promo. Aside from colour scheme preferences; the UK DC15 allergy being a strong personal preference for myself. :) Also, in the UK, it's mostly been about trading up, with key features like brush control, HEPA not being avalible on the standard, entry level models. Whereas in the US, aside from the Walmart special, this hasn't been the case. The 'Animal' models are all about marketing, to assist the purchaser. i.e. I have a dog, so this must be the one for me! But, then they can notice the DC14 Animal and enquire as to what it would take to bring the DC15 up to that spec. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 07/13/05 at 4:42pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I read somewhere recently about Dyson's production targets for the year ahead. They're currently manufacturing at around 3m units / year and are looking to increase this to around 6m. Unless they truly are making inroads with the DC12 in Japan, or have high hopes for the DC15 in other markets, it would make sense to assume that they're predicting a sufficient increase in the US, by far their largest (relatively) untapped market. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/13/05 at 6:59pm M00seUK: I've read these figures in the past for actual and projected of 3 million and 6 million. They're actually dated. It remains to be seen if it happens. With close to 300 million people in the USA and probably 100 million households, I would think the USA is a good lucrative dyson market. If dysons can SELL 3-6 million new units every year consistently, then I would agree with Carl that they are not niche but a market influence. But it hasn't happened yet. The sales figures in the USA have been 400,000-900,000 range from low to high. They have to sell alot more to rachet up production in the millions. (IMHO). I think this is an important sales year for dysons. He has to have his break out year this year in the USA. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/14/05 at 6:15pm I believe it's now 4 month sense the launch of the DC15 in the UK. Any word how it's doing? Is it a HIT for Dyson or a BUST. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 07/14/05 at 7:45pm I don't personally know anyone in retail who can provide a guide on how well, or not the DC15 is selling. I suspect that it will have a relatively long growth curve in terms of sales, but that in time, it will perhaps be a steady performer in the market. It's a proposition very similar to the early days of the DC01. It offers a major feature that is quite unlike anything else on the market. The problem it has to overcome is that it's still unproven in many people's eyes, with a price premium that *has* to be proved as a viable investment to the same people. As a sale, it also has to be proved as reliable - something that Dyson has gone to great lengths to show, not just to counter the negative publicity with the Which? press release, but that because it's so very different to what's come before it - a whole array of springs, catches and sliding bits of plastic. With Dyson's campaign through the press, internet and TV, the awareness is certainly there. The approach appears to be to 'seed' the market and carry it through with positive word of month, just like they had to do in the early day's of the DC01. Other than the early adaptors, potential sales might are to be made via following routes :- 1) Visitor spots a DC15 in a house-hold, recalls the main feature being sold, asks how they find it? Is it worth the cost? Can I have a quick go with it? 2) Visitor to a retail store, notices the DC15 on display, has the opportunity to try out it's handling, etc. 3) Person cleaning their house with a conventional vacuum cleaner - is now aware that there is an alternative to the backward / forward motions, that they've just accepted in the past. 4) Many people outside of the US market will already have an existing Dyson cleaner that is performing fine, so Dyson need to make a sale with enough additional features for them to upgrade. With the DC15, they now have the choice of :- The Ball, independently driven brush bar, RootCyclone, debris channel, TelescopeReach, Trapdoor emptying. Case in point is my own parents. They brought a DC15 three weeks ago - previously, they had a DC04 which was doing fine, only my mum was finding with the onset of arthritis, vacuuming with an upright was often uncomfortable. I suggested the DC15 as an alterative, because as well as the other new features, it had The Ball, which would possibly help with movement. They've tried it and have been really pleased with the results so far. They tell me that vacuuming is much quicker and easier and just maybe they'll go on to tell others. However, this was a 'sale' because :- 1) They've been pleased with the brand in the past 2) They're aware of the filter cleaning required on other 'bagless' cleaners 3) They had a personal recommendation (me!) 4) They had a 28 day trial period through the retailer 5) They recognised the benefit over their disposable income As Tom says, The Ball feature won't be for everyone. It is however, a great addition for Dyson, whatever the return on investment - as an illustration of constant commitment to innovation. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/15/05 at 7:44am M00seUK wrote:
If so, then it is a "niche" market seller. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Karl on 07/15/05 at 1:07pm You have to understand that high end models of virtually any consumer goods actually increase the sales of lower end models. Consider a top of the range model of a typical family car. The manufacturers don't make that much money on such models, however if they were to delete them from their range they would see sales of the lower and mid range models actually fall. It's all about perception as to what you're getting for the money. They same has to be said for Dyson. The $600 price tag for the DC15 is out of the question for most people however it makes the cost of the DC14 and DC07 look so much better and people are more likely to buy them. I don't quite agree that the DC15 is a 'niche' but I don't think the sales figures will set the world alight. But the mere presense of the DC15 alongside the cheaper models in a store will increase sales of 14s and 07s. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 07/15/05 at 4:52pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
As in selling to a 'niche' market? I wouldn't say so, it's selling to a general market, not for a 'niche' purpose. Just that 'the ball' feature needs to gain acceptance, which won't be instant. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/15/05 at 6:02pm I have a different perspective on the DC15 effect on the dyson line, based on existing results so far. The DC14 in concert with the DC15 squeezed out the DC07. Essentially, based on price and features, the DC07 is an old and undesirable model now. For $30 more, a consumer, who is so inclined to buy a dyson and knows a little about the models, will buy the DC14. Buyers who can't distinguish the nuances between the DC07 and DC14 (and can't get the sales people to explain them) will become confused and walk away altogether. Sale lost. Or if they buy the DC07, will learn that it is the oldest of the dyson models, and then decide to return it. Maybe to trade up, maybe after using it to say NO to a dyson vacuum. If the analysis of the DC15 to the HOOVER 700 is valid then the DC15 has to be the most popular seller among the current dysons. If not, then the comparison of it to the greater HOOVER 700 falls apart and is not accurate. I serviced more HOOVER 700's than any other HOOVER models up to that time. The HOOVER 700 is still more desirable today as a full time all around household rug vacuum than any HOOVER model up to that point. I still have two 700 series that work as good now as they did when they were brand new. I can't say the same about the HOOVER models like the 105, 300, 425, and 525 that preceeded the 700. The 700 put the HOOVER in the number ONE position in the industry for all future years to come (the greater HOOVER). Will the DC15 do that for dysons? If not ,are we to expect a dyson in the future that will have the impact on the vacuum industry like the HOOVER 700? Or was the analogy just a big joke. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/22/05 at 3:28pm The accessories for the DC15 are now available for sale Dyson's web site. DC15 The Ball (http://www.dyson.com/range/access_frame.asp?model=DC15-SY-STD&sinavtype=pagelink) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/23/05 at 4:17am Chris wrote:
Chris: You stated several times that the lack of the specialty tools resulted in the lack of DC15 sales. Do you have any personal experience with your own DC15 sales to support this conclusion? My feeling is the specialty tools are being added now to the DC15 to jump start the sales. I hear from local retailers that the DC15 sales are lackluster and not up to expectations. What are you finding? BTW, Sears bills it's exclusive DC14 for $579.99 as having more tools than any other dyson vacuum. They include the exclusive tools for Sears: Low reach floor tool, mattress cleaning tool, soft dusting brush and mini turbine head. Best Buy sells it's exclusive DC14 for $529.99 with flexi-crevice tool, bonus floor tool and extra filter. As I said, the specialty tools for the DC15 Ball are very nice but they won't sell the vacuum if people don't want the "ball" feature. You can give the extra tools away with the DC15 purchase, if people don't like and want the "ball" feature for $599.99, the tools won't clinch the sale. (IMHO) THe DC14 tools are desirable selling features for them as the "ball" should be the key selling feature for the DC15. The lack of the "ball's" appeal among vacuum consumers so far (its been about 4 months) is the reason dyson is adding the extra tools now. But this sales tactic risks losing sales for the DC14 models with the specialty tools. Reason: The prices for the DC14 with the extra tools and the DC15 are too close for dyson buyers to distinguish the difference. I'm curious to hear and read Consumer Reports take on the DC15 vice the DC14. It will be interesting reading. I don't think the DC15 is living up to the high hopes and expectations that dyson admirers prophesized: The greater dyson. The DC15 has not proved itself to earn that distinction. With several product failures already (most notably the DC11 and the Wal-Mart all carpet exclusive model), the DC15 may be dyson's last and final mistake in the US vacuum market. I believe that Consumer Reports holds the key for dyson's future in the US market. If the DC15 gets a poor to failing grade for innovation and performance, dyson vacuum sales may languish in the US market and not recover. Like I said this year has to be dyson's break out year. If not, it will be a niche vacuum. If this happens, and the DC15 bites the dust (like the DC11) the dyson product line will start fading away at the retailers. Fewer big box retail stores will sell dyson vacuums in the future. And the vacuum cleaner stores will follow suit. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/23/05 at 11:48am The DC15 for me isn't doing so good. I sold more DC11's a month Vs the Ball so far, the price is a major factor for the lack of sells. If Dyson would adjust the price, lets say $499.99 then I think it will take off but for now it's just not doing so great. The accessories may help but I really don't think that will happen. I only sold 6 so far in the last 3 months. By the way I averaged 6 DC11 sales a month. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 07/23/05 at 2:59pm Chris wrote:
I noticed the floor tool's color (purple) does not match the yellow DC15 . Do you think this is a mistake on the web site? For $50, I would think they would match. The pricing on the assessories are getting out of hand. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/23/05 at 3:54pm I think that's a mistake... You should have no problem getting one in yellow... Bruce wrote:
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Title: "Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/23/05 at 4:07pm "If Dyson would adjust the price, lets say $499.99 then I think it will take off but for now it's just not doing so great. The accessories may help but I really don't think that will happen. " Chris My sentiments exactly on the DC15 too. If the price on the DC15 drops say to $499, then so must the prices on the DC14 models. Either way, dropping the DC15 price (AND/or dropping the DC14 prices too to match) it does not bode well for future dyson sales both in units and dollars. Unfortunately, I don't think dyson will drop the prices on the DC14 which appears to be the "greater dyson." So the ONLY option is to pull the DC15 off the retail stores' sales circuit. OR market the DC15 exclusively as a "niche" vacuum to the independent USA vacuum stores (at a big discount off current wholesale). The latter is the course dyson should have taken from the start with the DC15. AND if the DC15 sales took off then go with the big box retailers. By not doing so, dyson made a big marketing mistake. (IMHO) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/23/05 at 4:41pm Carmine you are a vacuum guru with alot of knowledge on how this industry works. People who spend 600 plus for a sweeper want to be sold on it. Not off some commercial that says its good. Remember people dont buy kirbys , people are sold kirbys. I would say also the the magic price for aportable vacuum is 499.00, other than that its cost can not be justified. Regards old-timer......... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Elcleanofreako on 07/23/05 at 6:12pm DC14 does bagless job well (seems $450 or so round here). DC15 has louder, stronger power brush, quieter vac motor, different kind of manueverability, heavier, bulkier, $150 more. Is worth that to box house buyers? Perhaps theres "price threshold" where box house vacs stall. Speciality vac stores easilly sell products at twice $$$ that DC15's at. If Hoover made killer Windtunnel for $600 would it sell at boxhouse? What if Hoover made it only for speciality dealers, and as truly unique product? Also remember DC11 highly rated by CU, but died in USA anyway. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 07/23/05 at 7:07pm So the DC11 is in the past and the DC07 is being phased out. If this means failure then maybe that explains why Hoover is in so much trouble. How many Hoover models have been replaced. I believe many more than Dyson. It is only natural to phase out older models as new ones are introduced. It seems that recently Hoover, in desperation, has introduced a new model every two or three months. Each one gets worse that the previous. Yes, Carmine is a guru who has missed all predictions on Dyson's falure. His usual way out is " time will tell". In the meantime Dyson keeps prevailing. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by SleepDoc on 07/23/05 at 11:14pm Regarding the DC15's distinctive appeal, I would have expected it to be in the two-motor design and the improved brush roll. I haven't used a DC15, but I pushed one around a little at Best Buy; it's more manuverable but not so much that it seems nimble. So, the ball feature, to me, is just an accomodation for separate suction and roller motors. I wish Dyson would proceed with its Motorhead canister using the good roller and a long hose on a full-size canister. When it arrives, I'll buy it. Patrick |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 07/24/05 at 10:47am DC07 is NOT being 'phased out" nor is DC11 "history". Carmine started that Lie and others took it for gospel. Dyson has made 12 different, distinct models since 1993 (DC- 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 07, 08, 11. 12, 14, 15, ConstantMAX) and ONLY DC-01 and DC-02 are obsolete. There are 10 distinct Dyson models CURRENTLY in production for World Wide distribution. Plus; washing machine production has been moved to Malaysia to begin production of the North American model. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/24/05 at 11:08am Dyson has hit the consumer tollerance level for the DC 15 . people know that this machine is way over priced for what it is. Can you guys justify the retail price and tell the customer your doing them a favor. Iknow dealers who dust theirs off every 2 weeks. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 07/25/05 at 9:13am Dyson is brilliant for raising the retail price level of vacuum cleaners. It's amazing to see people who wouldn't spend $100 on a Hoover, leave the Best Buys with a $700 DC15 Animal. Vacuum cleaners are no longer 'specialty' items and most consumers see no need to find a vac shop for their vacuum purchases. In fact, if you ask the average person, they don't even know where a vacuum shop is. Too bad, but that's the way it is. Of course, rainbow, kirby elux, fq, etc. customers still need vac shops so there IS a market out there that will come to shops. But the average person? Not a chance. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/25/05 at 11:43am What's also hurting the dealers and myself are the sells of the DC15 on Ebay. Last time I looked their were 35 for sale on it. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 07/27/05 at 10:18am It's only Wednesday and three emails from potential customers asking about a Canister. Dyson USA please hurry up and release another canister. :-/ Question/Comment: I'm trying to purchase a DC11. Are they available in the US? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 08/12/05 at 5:46pm Finally my DC15 Animal order arrived today and of course all were damaged by UPS >:( |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 08/12/05 at 7:30pm Chris: DC-11 are still available to independent shops and for warranty. There are several thousand in the warehouse outside of Chicago. They are being used for people who need warranty work, Dyson is shipping a new DC11 and picking up their 'failed' one. Last I heard, only four DC11's have been used so far for warranty. I have a 240 volt DC11 in my collection that I absolutely love. The suction is phenomenal and the turbo brush spins as fast as an electric power nozzle. But, then again, it's on a 'kirby destroying' 240 volts of power. Worldwide, the DC11 is doing very well for Dyson. It's more popular than DC08, which is the body style they are using for our 'American Only' power nozzle canister to be launched soon. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 08/12/05 at 7:52pm Dual, any word on the pricing yet. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 08/12/05 at 8:15pm Chris, thats to bad all were damaged lets see who makes good on it. As far as i know u.p.s. is only liable for up to 100.00 a unit. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 08/12/05 at 8:38pm I meant the boxes are damaged looking. old-timer wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 08/12/05 at 8:47pm call dyson or or your rep and ask for a shipping discount they usually help, if they respect you as a dealer. OLD-TIMER |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 08/13/05 at 11:58am I have. I even asked if they would ship my orders by FedEX but I guess they have a account with UPS and not willing to switch. old-timer wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dixielogs on 08/15/05 at 6:07pm I got my Ball Animal today (bought for a fab price on ebay) and I have to say, I am blown away by the difference in the brush roll. Loved the DC14, but got a chance to get this one for an unbelievable steal, so my DC14 is going to SIL who is sending her DC07 to her mother. Although it has a higher pitched whine to it, it reallly glides across the floor. I love it! Sorry, Chris, I know ebay sellers are really hurting your business, but who could pass up a price of $500 including shipping for the Animal? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 08/15/05 at 7:32pm :'( dixielogs wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 08/17/05 at 10:01pm Chris, think dyson should have a private label program for its dealers on line. check it out . regard , old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 08/17/05 at 10:04pm Not sure what you mean..... old-timer wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 08/17/05 at 10:14pm sometimes manufactures will private label their machines for abuying group of dealers, example royals metal uprights were marketed under the electro hygene, banner, get enough dealers together and make it worth their while to talk to you. OLD LUX UPRIGHTS , under the commercial castex name. We have a central vac manufacturer that works with us. Its a little tough in the beginning but in the long run pays off because it keeps you price competative. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 09/07/05 at 3:52pm 4 DC15 sold in the last 3 days. 3 Animals and 1 All Floors :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 09/09/05 at 8:19pm Chris, thats great for you, did you sell them or did the customers buy them. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 09/09/05 at 10:22pm The customers bought them through my web site. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 09/10/05 at 11:42am While doing some last minute shopping at Wally's World last night I noticed next to the DC-07 display was a couple of pre-motor filters manufactured by Honeywell. I haven't seen any for the DC-14/15, but suspect they will be supplying them in the near future as well. They had no price tags on them so I have no idea what the selling price will be on these filters. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/10/05 at 2:55pm Made for dyson (original) or to fit dyson (bojack)? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 09/10/05 at 3:10pm They look to be bojack. The foam is blue like originals but the plastic holder is gray in color. Not OEM by any means but probably will work fine. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/10/05 at 3:31pm Any thoughts about Sam Walton's retail company carrying replacement filters for dysons? Interesting? Any caveats in the dyson instructions about using only Genuine Dyson parts? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 09/10/05 at 4:11pm In recent years Dyson have been taking a stand against 3rd party replacement parts and consumables. All filters now have 'Dyson Genuine Component' written across them. Over here, I've only ever noticed 3rd party filters for Dyson models DC01 and DC02, carried in places like supermarkets. These models use consumable filters, whereas all filters DC03 onwards were designed to be washable. I wouldn't think that there was much market for the non-consumable filters, 'cept for the certain percentage of owners who don't realise the filters are washable, or buy replacements each time for some false piece of mind. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/10/05 at 6:19pm Wal-Mart is the largest retailer in the US of A. It carries ONLY Genuine manufacturer parts for the vacuums it sells. Unless and until these dyson filters, if they are in fact not sanctioned by dyson. Hence, my previous post............... Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 09/10/05 at 6:21pm Its likely that some filter manufactures, like, dust care, vac, f.x. ,us filter ,makes the filters for dyson , and dyson puts the orig, componet parts, tag on it. We know of no vacuum mfg, that makes their own filters, or paper bags. O.E.M. parts do bring more money though, but if replacement parts, fit and work the same, and most do. Savings to the customer is realized, when selling replacement filters, bags, brush rollors, belts of the same quality of o.e.m., its more profit to the dealers.Believe me, i tell the customers ,your vacuum wont know the difference old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vacuuman on 09/10/05 at 10:00pm I have seen genertic bags at Wal Mart. They were the Endust brand. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/11/05 at 3:59am I have too (not many). I don't believe the replacement bags are for the new vacuums on the shelves that are being sold. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 09/30/05 at 12:00pm The DC15 is now launched in Spain, New Zealand, Netherlands, Italy, Ireland, Germany, France, Austria, Australia, UK and the US of course..... Dyson's really pushing the DC15 "The Ball". |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/30/05 at 12:08pm Chris: Dyson has alot at stake with the Ball. It's his baby. After the DC11 failed in the US, retailers started to look at dyson closer. Does this guy really know the vacuum industry in the USA? The Ball is his finale, the greater dyson we were told. It's not doing what he hoped in the USA. It's a clumsy vacuum to operate. And he's over priced it. If the DC15 fails in the USA (and it may), dyson will be looking for other vacuum markets to sure up his sales. He's got alot riding on the Ball: His reputation in the US vacuum industry. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 09/30/05 at 2:33pm They have pretty colors. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 09/30/05 at 9:23pm Dyson has had one vacuum that did not go to the top. The others are sales leaders, have almost bankrupted Hoover because they have to discount so heavily to compete, and out perform them in real life use. How many discontinued Hoovers are there? Each one that they try to improve on only gets worse. THey had to copy Dyson to get back in the market. Mr. Dyson sure must be enjoying his failure as he makes his bank deposits. He must be gald that he is not having Hoover's success. old timer do you prefer the pink or some other feminine color that Hoover has? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 09/30/05 at 9:39pm HARDSELL, we dont sell hoover or dyson, we just make alot of money repairing them.I use an electrolux silverardo with a p/n 6 in my own home, and the machine is 23 years old. Imangine me a vacuum dealer promoting another product that we were taught to bash, B.T.W. upright vacuums are worthless in most homes , we tell people that kirbys, dysons, and hoovers are great machines if your on one floor and dont have any furniture. W e sell more central vacuums than portables, come out of the stone age and into the new regards, old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vacuuman on 10/01/05 at 12:10am Central vacs certainly are the new age. They can do everything so eaily. I personally own one and I recommend them to everyone. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 10/01/05 at 3:49am I do not think that Dyson nor Hoover will disappear. I know that some would wish differently, but sorry. Hoover, like many, many other companies will lower their prices for a model after the introductory period. The price usually is lowered when a new model comes out. This is common practice , especially in the U.S. Hoover, as well as some companies like Eureka, were doing this a long time before Dyson came along. As for the DC15, I talked w/ some Sears associates who have told me that they are not selling well. Every once in a while they will sell one. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/01/05 at 4:55am Ditto on the DC15 sales numbers from retailers I talk with about the DC sales. It's a major US flop by the sales numbers. Some made the comparison of dyson to HOOVER especially with the HOOVER 700. The H-700 rocketed HOOVER to the top of the vacuum market and solidified HOOVER in the US vacuum market as number ONE. Some, maybe Mr. D himself, parallelled the DC15 launch to the HOOVER 700 in terms of the expectations for dyson in the US vacuum market. I don't think it was and is correct. Unlike HOOVER we have not yet seen the greater dyson. We've seen some "so so" dysons and a major flop (DC11). If that makes success, the definition has changed with the time and the bar has been lowered since the greater HOOVER. The price drop may help DC15 sales but the problem is the vacuum itself. While it has some improvements over the DC07 and 14 it has some serious drawbacks. Vacuum retailers will have a decision to make in the upcoming year: To stock and sell the DC15 or scrub it. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 10/01/05 at 8:55am Dyson DC15 usability is very subjective. I've been using it for a few months and am completely sold on it's benefits - to have return to a traditional upright would be a hard step to take - on one particular carpet, the lack of friction is almost like vacuuming on a sheet of ice! The task is quicker and almost enjoyable - it has genuine benefits. Sure, the twisting of the wrist is something you have to get used to, but to me, it's preferred to the muscles off-centre, on one side of your back, which get strained with a traditional wheeled vac. But I agree it's a tough seller, it has to be experienced. For my parents, I had it brought on-line from a national retailer. This had the advantage of a large discount on the shop floor price, with a 30-day return to store money-back option. When you're stocking something that is new, premium priced and subjective, a sale or return agreement with the supplier is a must. So long as 'the ball' mounting is proved to be reliable, I'm sure it will remain stocked, at least across the UK. Dyson appear to buy floor space (inc. test carpets) in all the major out-of-town electrical retailers, so can within reason offer whatever they want. These floor spaces are typically as big as the combined space used by the competitors. It sounds like the sales environments in the US often aren't as extensive? The Best Buy I visited 3 years ago had a single facing of the DC07, on a raised shelf, with no real opportunity to try out the machine. At least with what is now a 'traditional wheel mount' machine, you generally know what you're getting. Over here, Dysons are regularly featured in the large format grocery retailers, comparable to the Wal-Mart stores I've visited in the US. Typically, only the DC07, for the lower price point / impulse buy it offers. To sell a DC15 in this environment, would, I imagine be murder. In the same way that these stores will sell you a boxed 14" TV, but if you're after a plasma flat screen, you'd go to a specialist, with knowledgeable staff, for a demonstration. 'The Ball' invention is one of Dyson's unique selling points at the moment and let's face it, with the dual cyclone patents expiring, it's not a bad rabbit to pull from the hat. Even if sales are slow at the moment, it's brillant PR for Dyson, to demonstrate their core value of genuine, continual development. There's only so much market research you can do with this type of product - at launch, newspaper interview quotes mentioned that it might well be a standard feature on their upright models in the future. If there truly is this gender divide in user feedback, that day obviously isn't here just yet. However at Dyson, 'the ball' R&D team is continuing with their work, no doubt factoring in the feedback gained this year. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 9:15am Thanks Mike for adding some perspective. It is quite clear I am a dyson fan at this point but those who predict either hoover or dyson going away at this point are wishful thinking and not dealing in fact. It is obvious they are pursuing 2 radically different business models. As a consumer I appreciate the choice and the one I have made so far is obvious. What continues to confound me is how anyone in the industry that supports the independent vacuum shops and claims to be a neutral with no connections to either company can support the model that drives many more low priced units into the market place, directly attacks higher end units, and must be having the effect of driving average prices down. If I was to own a vacuum shop I would want as many customer coming through my door as possible already considering a $500 dyson (whether I carried them or not) than a $120 hoover. Those who predict doom for a company that discontinues a lagging unit or may after a few years have a first price reduction are simply disconnected from the reality of the marketplace or purposely bending it to fit their biased arguments. I too asked a few store associates about the sales of the dc15 but in asking followups I found what I believe may be interesting. I was told that since the launch of the ball that the DC14 sales have increased and passed the dc07. It appears as a consumer that dyson has managed to raised it average price point by by creating a better and best price point that did not even exists at these retailers before. How can some in the industry with no financial connection to hoover possibly be rooting for the fusion? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 9:20am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Mr. D himself parallelled the Dc15 launch to the hoover700? I have to ask did he really? Seem far fetched to me. You wouldn't just be creatiing that statement, putting it in his mouth and then arguing against in would you? I could hardly imagine how you would bend the facts if you were actually anti dyson and pro hoover. ;) |
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Title: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/01/05 at 11:33am I didn't invent and draw the analogy of the DC15 to the HOOVER 700 (a take off of the HOOVER 700 as the greater HOOVER). The Forum's poster child for dyson did with much vacuum authority and historical bravado. I believe he even quoted from his bible: His hero's autobigraphy. I found this ludicrous at the time and obviously still. It was a futile exercise to compare an upstart company with no track record in the USA vacuum industry to a vacuum industry giant. The motive was publicity for the dyson product on this and other vacuum Forums. A role the poster child relished as being in with his hero. In HOOVER's case the greater HOOVER (700) rocketed its vacuum to the top of the industry. THe previous poster in drawing the analogy was trying to draw the same inference: That the DC15 would catapult dyson to the top of the USA vacuum industry. The analogy then was weak and contrived wishful thinking. Now we know the DC15 won't do for dyson what the HOOVER 700 did for HOOVER. NEVER going to happen. Dyson at best will be a niche high end bagless in the USA not mainstream. I'm not surprised that the dyson poster child no longer sells new dysons in his own vacuum store. He now repairs them instead. A smart business move. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 12:18pm I was curious if you could give me an example of another product currently running number one in market share by dollar that would be considered a niche product? I know I can give you a nearly unlimited list of product who wish they could be such a niche. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 12:19pm I agree with you Carmine that Duals move was smart for his business, whether or not he still believes in the quality of dyson. I can also understand his being an independent business man still hoping dyson continues to drive average selling prices up maybe even hoping they bring a commercial type out soon so he can sell a differentiated product. What he has done makes good business sense and seems honest. I remain confused by those who claim they are impartial and independent would push machines that will drag prices and profits down for the vacuum shops. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/01/05 at 12:32pm Give the customer their moneys worth and the dollars take care of themselves. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 10/01/05 at 3:28pm "Give the customer their moneys worth and the dollars take care of themselves. " That is what Dyson has done. |
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Title: The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/01/05 at 3:47pm HOOVER and in particular the new FUSION for $128.88 does the same for its Wal-Mart vacuum clientele especially the bagless buyers. It gives them the most bang for the buck. FUSION is a winner for Wal-Mart, perfect model and match. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/01/05 at 5:50pm HARDSELL, you spit out as much venom as i do, as a fellow racer and auto enthusiest i agree many high performance, trick of the month parts are overpriced, as you know most of this stuff doesn't work , at the phenominal prices they charge and you buy it you own it policies, what i'm trying to say hardsell is most stuff is not as advertised, you feel dysons worth the price and i dont.My opinion is its just old technology with a new spin on it, just wish the parts availability for them was just better than it is, its been here 3 years and we still cant get parts for them , in my opinion something is wrong. What do you think it could be. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 7:42pm justasking2 wrote:
Come on can anyone list just a couple examples to substantiate this label? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/01/05 at 7:55pm ORECK.............. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/01/05 at 8:08pm Oreck is currently running number one in market share by dollar? I know others here had the info but I would not figure them for top 5. I can't think of any mass retailed product where the number 1 market share by dollar product would be considered a niche. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 10/01/05 at 8:09pm old-timer, I agree on the Oreck being a niche product. It is light and grooms carpet to perfection. If it only pulled dirt out of the carpet it would be my choice of vacuums. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 10/01/05 at 8:13pm old-timer, I disagree about the trick of the month stuff for automobiles. I have bought at least 25 of them which claimed to increase fuel mileage between 5 % and 10% each. I now have to siphon gas out of my tank daily because combined they increased mileage so much. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/01/05 at 8:34pm Hardsell, thats a good one, about gas mileage, but i was leaning more towards racing parts, v.p. racing fuel 110 octane costs 7.50 a gallon at our local track now. Our race car gets 4 gallons to the mile. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/01/05 at 8:47pm Is dyson currently running number one in vacuum market share dollars and/or units in the USA? And how long a period is the covered? Are you saying that at the end of calendar year 2006, dyson will be the number one USA vacuum seller in market share for dollars/units? What is your source? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/02/05 at 3:54am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
HARDSELL, Justasking2, Bruce, Matt mmc, Jack (I believe you may have cited this stat) and whoever else has the inclination and information, feel free to answer. Here's a great opportunity to give us the offcial dyson sales numbers. UK Forumers if you have any words coming from there with dyson's sales in the USA, let's here from you. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/02/05 at 4:11am justasking2 wrote:
I presume you are inferring that dyson is? Do you care to elaborate on your information and sources? You can get help from whoever you like. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 10/02/05 at 1:58pm It seems that Hoover wants to be in that niche. They have bagless and now an imitation cyclone. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/02/05 at 2:20pm HARDSELL wrote:
You're right. The HOOVER FUSION will no doubt knock off most of the low end bagless vacuums on the market with and without bin filters. At the same time because of its features, it will take market share away from high end bagless like VAX and dyson. $128.88 You can't beat the price and performance for the money. It's a winner for HOOVER and Wal-Mart. A marriage made in vacuum heaven. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/02/05 at 8:23pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Yes I read here that dyson was number 1 in market share by dollar in the thread I read it you did not dispute it. The poster unlike some is someone who has given me no reason to doubt his honesty. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/02/05 at 8:31pm One: the sales figures are now old and out of date. Two: What was the poster's source of the sales numbers and how do you and I know (without the source) it's valid and not company exaggeration. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/02/05 at 8:57pm I have no reason to doubt him. Although somewhat dated I believe US news and world report is a good enough source to show some backup to his claim. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/050523/23eespotlight.htm |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 10/02/05 at 10:54pm It's curious that the Hoover has 16% market share and Kirby has 14% according to the article. Since the article was published, Hoover has started to awaken from its slumber and introduced a dual cyclone vacuum of its own and responded to Dyson's attacks. Granted Hoovers response has been weak and the company has been distracted by Maytag being bought out. Until the Maytag purchase is finalized, the Hoover response will be somewhat neutered. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/03/05 at 5:48pm The takeover probably won't be consummated until the first or second quarter of 2006. What will be interesting to see is whether BEST BUY takes the MAYTAG washers and dryers back into their stores after scrubbing them recently. Whirlpool is their best selling laundry equipment. To keep them, BEST BUY may to add MAYTAG back. Interesting business partners. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/04/05 at 6:40am Hi Carmine, As we expected the Dyson DC15 "The Ball" will drop in price. The All Floor will go for $499.99 and the Animal new price will be $599.99 Thank you for your interest. I'm sharing this message which I received concerning the price of the dyson Ball. The price drop goes into effect Nov 1, 2005. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/04/05 at 2:37pm Excellent! I thought it would only be $50 or so. Now if I can find one open box priced of this new price at Best Buy and I will have my third dyson. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/04/05 at 2:50pm $100.00 off is much better and I hope for success with the new price scale.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/04/05 at 2:58pm Justasking2, why dont you buy a vacuum that really cleans and works right, justasking........ old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 10/04/05 at 3:48pm old-timer wrote:
The DC-15 will do excactly that and more. Excellent choice! Justtelling! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 10/04/05 at 4:18pm old-timer wrote:
I have been very happy with the dyson's in my home up to this point. My real life experience has been much different than the couple of sales people selling against it here. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/04/05 at 4:33pm If you would pay the shipping charge, I would be very happy to send you a used sanitaire upright , with the bolt eater fan set up, the machine looks like its been dropped out of a airplane, its a absolute rug cleaning terror, it has all the right pieces, and will blow your dyson 's away. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 10/04/05 at 5:01pm No thanks. Don't need that antique, dust belching ungly relic around here. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/04/05 at 5:10pm Chris wrote:
That's a big price drop. $100 lower and much earlier than I thought it would happen. My question is what will happen with the other dyson prices? He is now in the price range where his top of the line DC15 Ball is competing against the DC14 and its various editions. Something's got to give. Or the Ball sells out and is discontinued from the USA vacuum market? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 10/04/05 at 5:37pm Doesn't make much sense to drop the DC-15 considering it cleans better than it's predecessors. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/04/05 at 6:06pm Thats not saying too much for its older siblings, couldn't they get it right the first time. For what it costs it should come with a maid... old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/04/05 at 6:45pm You can say that again :) Bruce wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/05/05 at 3:52am Chris wrote:
Therein lies Mr. James Dyson's dilemma wrapped in an enigma. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 10/05/05 at 12:08pm Carmine, How do you think that the Dyson price drop will affect Dyson sales? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/05/05 at 5:47pm RAT wrote:
Mr. Rat: Excellent question. Initially, the lower DC15 price will increase the sales of the Ball BUT at the expense of the DC07 and 14 sales. The net change in overall dyson sales and market share (dollar/unit) is unchanged. Whether dyson drops the Ball price further remains to be seen. Or conversely, if he keeps the DC15 Ball prices set at their new levels, and reduces the prices of the DC07 and 14 remains to be seen. If he does the latter, then dyson sales and market share (dollar/unit) should spike up. But I do not think significantly. One or two percentage points which to me is irrelevant UNLESS it is consistent over the long term (more than a quarter or two) and at least for one year. I don't see the Ball as a long term vacuum in the dyson line UNLESS he makes major redesigns. The Ball is not user friendly for female buyers and users. I think you made that point and it is valid. You can't sacrifice hand and wrist pain and discomfort for a gimmick with a high price. Realistically dyson dropped the ball on this model. Even when there was a demand in the 60's with heavy metal vacuums that were big and heavy, GE's ball wheel vacuum failed miserably in a short period of time. It was a decent rug cleaner and inexpensive. Today with the predominant use of plastic, smaller and lightweight vacuums, a ball wheel is irrelevant. It's useless. What is VERY interesting to me and others who follow the market is that dyson dropped the price by $100. With the DC11, he scrubbed the vacuum rather than drop the price. He had a change of heart with the Ball. Why? I have an opinion. What happens if the sales of the DC15 continue to be lackluster? Expect more price cuts? Or cut and run like the DC11? Mr. Dyson is caught on the horns of a dilemma. I have yet to see a TV ad for the Ball. Maybe we will now? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/07/05 at 12:30pm The Sam's Club in Woodbridge VA reduced the price on the DC07 Full Kit to $399.88. Not much but enough to have ripple effects. This dyson model is the turgoise and blue with the extra turbo tool, extra lifetime filter, and extra long haired bare floor brush. At this price the DC07 Full Kit at Sam's will preempt local retailers' sales of the DC07 All Floors (which does not have the extras) IF the All Floors price stays at $399.88. Big IF? Is the dyson price levee in the USA breaking? We'll see. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/09/05 at 11:13am THe local Target (Woodbridge VA) is selling the DC07 All Floors for $399 (no cents). It carries the full dyson product line and an array of many other vacuum makes. With a nice supply of vacuum parts. A minor price detail (no cents) but less than the DC07 Full Kit at the Sam's Club for $399.88 All prices have been removed from the vacuum displays by the Target store. Are vacuum sales prices in the offing soon at Target? Target was one of the USA retailers showing a decent profit for the last quarter and year to date. Wal-Mart too came in at industry and analyst forecasts. Boosted the stock. Best Buy was lower. Industry experts have already predicted the Christmas season sales to be lackluster due to rising gasoline prices. Maybe the retailers will lower prices (including vacuums) before the Christmas season to jump start the seasonal sales and boost Holiday sales revenue by lengthening the time. (Hence dyson's Ball price drop effective November 1). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 10/10/05 at 6:56am DC07 ALL FLOORS IS $429.99 at Wal Mart on line. Sears Sunday flyer has Kenmores with savings of $10 to $50 (6% to 33% off) . Canister happens to be 33% off. Dyson DC14 all floors at $429.99 not on sale. Best Buy has Hoover canister at nearly 17%off and Empower at 10%off. WindTunnel bagless on sale but regular price not mentioned. No sale on Dyson. Dyson pricing is still holding. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 8:03am Neither dyson or VAX were featured in the BEST BUY weekly newspaper advertising supplement. Considered high end bagless, this week BEST BUY featured its low to mid range vacuums and rug cleaner (HOOVER Agility). BTW the TV show that features the neighborhood housewifes, I don't know the name I don't watch it very often, had Mr. James Dyson and his DC14. His advertising obviously tries to appeal to women (IMHO). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/10/05 at 9:38am Kohls Department Store during its grand opening Thursday in New Towne Mall at New Philadelphia. One of the best sellers was a Dyson vacuum that swept off the shelves at $523 instead of its normal $615. Vacuums and steam cleaners have been among the most popular items. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 9:52am Interesting Chris. I don't know your source, but that runs contradictory to the Kohl's stores I've talked with in the Washington DC area. In particular here in Woodbridge Va. THis Kohls store is relatively new and just recently expanded because it is doing so well. But that is not true for dyson vacuum sales. Of all their household floorcare, dyson is the least selling of all on the shelves. It is not unusual for the store to go for weeks without a dyson sale, so I am and have been told. My source is very good. Better than Matt mmc who tends to put a positive dyson spin on all matters. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/10/05 at 10:03am Here's my source. The Times Reporter (http://www.timesreporter.com/left.php?ID=46471&r=0) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 10:14am Interesting. Is there any reason for me and Forum readers to believe that the story is skewed positively toward dyson? And can you vouch that Chris Brewster is an honest broker and source for the story reporter? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Jack on 10/10/05 at 10:23am Reading the article it states the source as Kohl's store manager Chris Hess of Brewster. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by danorob on 10/10/05 at 10:34am Chris wrote:
Chris, It would not matter if the Store Manager called Carmine personally – We all know that anything positive that anyone says about Dyson is either made-up, skewed, phony, fake, or any of the many other terms that Carmine has used when the story does not suit his needs… I am sure that both the reporter and the store manager made the whole story up about the Dyson sales…. NOT !!!! Carmine – You are really grasping at straws – enough is enough – give it up now, it is really time… I don’t think that everyone else’s views are skewed, I personally think that many of your views are skewed… OH – One other question – You mentioned that you are a “consultant” for stores and vacuum manufactures – Would you care to share with the members of the forum who the people are that are so hot for your advice??? Just curious… Dan |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 10/10/05 at 10:41am Chris wrote:
It's not clear whether the manager was referring to units sold or dollars. IF Carmine is correct and sales of Dysons are rare, almost any increase would be huge. In terms of dollars sold, it would not take many sales to be large. For example, if they sold 10 Dysons, it would represent $5230. We don't know how many units were sold. They would have to sell around 40 Hoovers or 60 Bissels to get the same sales total as 10 Dysons. I don't know if its an issue with Dysons, but with higher priced items, sometimes there is a problem with buyer's remorse leading to return of perfectly good products. Apparently, at a $92 discount, the Dyson sold well. Was the store punished for selling the vacuum below Dyson's MAP? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 1:14pm OH – One other question – You mentioned that you are a “consultant” for stores and vacuum manufactures – Would you care to share with the members of the forum who the people are that are so hot for your advice Just curious… Dan As I said several times before on the Forum, unless my professional consulting work conflicts with my posts here on the Forum I will not reveal my professional business associations. Some of my clients are competitors. I may work for more than one at the same time. If they trust and pay me to be independent and fair, that's what matters. I do not tell my clients who my clients are. It's none of their business. If I can't accept an engagement with a client for personal and professional reasons, I say no. No questions asked or answers given. I'm not at a loss for consulting work. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 2:03pm Jack wrote:
My apologies to Mr. Hess for incorrectly stating his name and attributing the "dyson" statement to him. Hr. Hess did not mention any of the Kohl's products by name. Just the contary. He was generic in his statements about the products. The story's reporter inserted the dyson statement. So my question to the veracity of the statement should be properly addressed to the story's reporter. Is he an honest broker? In journalism, it is not an uncommon practice to embellish and pick and choose. Truth is not as easy to find by reading. Journalists and editors who read their work before going to print want to sell newspapers and magazines. Local store opening. Local news account. What's a little fluff to excite the readers' curiosity? It sells. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 10/10/05 at 2:26pm There's no reason to argue over what a store manager said because his statement doesn't really mean anything. What does it really mean to say that Dyson vacuums are selling well? For example, let's say that he hoped to sell two Dysons and he sold 4, that would be twice as good as expected. We don't know whether he sold 4 Dysons or 100, and the reporter didn't ask for any hard numbers. It sounds like the store is located in an area that has not had much selection in the past and that there was a pent up demand for items. If the story is true, I wish Mr. Hess had been involved in the Kohl's opening near my home. He says that they had all cashiers open and they moved the customers along. My wife and I had to wait at least 20 minutes in line at the Kohl's opening and only 4 lines were open. So did Kohl's violate the Dyson MAP with their discount of $92? If the price drop resulted in much better sales, will other Kohl's lower the price as well? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 2:46pm "So did Kohl's violate the Dyson MAP with their discount of $92? If the price drop resulted in much better sales, will other Kohl's lower the price as well?" RAT I recall Matt mmc, a dyson rep on this Forum, say after I pressed him several times that there was a more "buyer friendly" dyson pricing policy to be announced. It's more difficult for retailers to cut prices on their high priced items as quickly and drastically as dyson did on the Ball. Retailers are more discreet on dropping prices on their high priced selling items. However, I infer from Matt mmc's nebulous remark................. Bye bye dyson MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/10/05 at 6:24pm RAT: I want to clarify further. I agree that dyson prices will drop and drop big. I suspect the new Kohl's store could drop the dyson prices by over $90 because there are no other retailers in the area with dysons already. In retail stores and markets with the dysons already established, the dyson prices will drop slowly. The stores will drop the prices cautiously and competitively. I don't want to state straight out that the retail stores will agree on the amounts and times for the price drops. However I think this does happen especially on high priced vacuums. In part, this orchestrated price drop among retailers avoids loosing too much money to soon. I don't necessarily agree completely with the analogy between the Oreck and dyson prices and their reluctance to lower. Oreck is better poised to maintain the pricing structure because it owns the stores and supplies the vacuums to them. He can dictate what happens price wise. Dyson depends on the stores to uphold the MAP. The stores have a vested interest to do so IF the vacuums are selling well. IF not, they do what they always do to move product. Lower the prices and look for other products to make up the loss (i.e. VAX and BEST BUY). With or without dyson's blessings, the retailers will lower the prices on dysons but will start slowly. Look at BEST BUY. Dyson's not going to pull his vacuums out of BEST BUY. He'll lose money and BB will sell the VAX vacuums and make money. OR will dyson pull out of BB? I liken the process to a bunch of youngsters whistling past the cemetary at midnight. Each is waiting and watching for another to cut and run first. Once one does, they're all off and running. I think it will be a very interesting process to watch unfold. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 10/10/05 at 7:28pm I don't think Carmine likes me, oh well.......... MAP is minimum advertised price, so if they didn't advertise the sale price, they are not in violation of MAP |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/11/05 at 3:33am Matt: Thanks on MAP. Again as I have for the past 10 months I invite you to meet me at any one or more of your store accounts in Woodbridge VA and I'll treat you to lunch at an Italian restaurant. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/11/05 at 8:45am Note - That I can back my sources up with new articles etc,. while Carmine can't. danorob wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/11/05 at 5:17pm Chris: You're making broad assumptions about your and my sources and observations. I know you like and sell the dyson. I'm happy for you and I hope you make mega bucks. I don't think dyson is the answer for everybody. I don't believe it is mainstream and I still maintain that it is a niche vacuum. Especially at the price for the performance. I consider myself an expert source. So do others who pay for my advice. I respect others who are experts. I value their judgement. I listen to them and talk to them. For the most part we have been and still are on the same page about dysons. I like my sources and I'll stick with them. They have served me well with a long and profitable business career in the vacuum industry (and still are). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/11/05 at 7:44pm "Note - That I can back my sources up with new articles etc,. while Carmine can't. " Chris Need I remind you that on two dyson related matters I posted about on the Forum you were either my number one source or a corroborative source? I usually try to have at least two before I post. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/13/05 at 4:06am mmc wrote:
A retailer can advertise in a newspaper or supplement that "ALL FLOORCARE ON SALE 20-60%." If the ad does not exclude any particular make and model, the retailer can sell the vacuum at more than $90 off from suggested manufacturer retail and local competitive prices and not violate the MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/13/05 at 7:08am Similarly a retailer can advertise "Selected Floorcare 20-60% off." And sell the vacuum for over $90 off the local retailers' competitive prices. Not violate the MAP. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 10/13/05 at 10:48am For those of you who keep up with such things, the Dyson Ball made the cover of "Tech Briefs Engineering Solutions for Design and Manufacturing", vol. 29, no. 10, October 2005 (www.techbriefs.com). The article is more about the software used to design the Ball. In the table of contents it has: "On the cover: "UK based Dyson introduced the Dyson Cyclone(TM) vacuum cleaner in 1993, promoting it as the first vcuum (other than the Rainbow) that never loses suction. To design its most recent Dyson vacuum - the DC15 with the Ball(TM) technology - the company used NX digital product development software from UGS (Plano, TX). Dyson Root Cyclone(TM) technology uses 1000,000G of centrifugal force in the cyuclones to filter dust and remove dirt from the airflow. The dust particles are released into the collector as the air slows. For details on NX 4 product development software, our Product of the Month, see UpFront on page 10." Upfront on page 10, has a nice picture of the Ball: "UGS, Plano, TX, has announced NX 4 product development software that integrates CAD, CAE, and CAM components. New industrial design capabilities include freeform surfacing, reverse engineering, polygon modeling, and enhanced visualization. ... NX 4 incorporates advanced simulation through I-deas and Nastran to provide flow, thermal, motion, and multiphysics simulation capabilities. ..." UGS has a cool web site is: http://www.ugs.com/index.shtml They also have a picture of the Ball at: http://www.ugs.com/products/nx/relentless_innovation.shtml |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/13/05 at 1:35pm RAT: Thanks for the info and web site. Good stuff to share with the Forum! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/21/05 at 10:14pm So it looks like I'm not apart of the Dyson promotion. http://www.dyson.com/promotions/toypromo2005/images/promo_page.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/22/05 at 3:27am Chris: Too bad. Around the Holidays, these toy vacuum promotions are nice extras for the buyers and their families. HOOVER did it first in the 50's with the model 63 upright. The kiddies loved them. I suspect the same is true today with the toy vacuums. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/22/05 at 3:36am BTW someone on the Forum last Holiday season predicted dyson would use the toy vacuum promotion in the USA. He was wrong on his timing but right with the prediction. I wonder who that person was? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/23/05 at 9:33am The big box retailers in the Washington DC area blitzed the Sunday advertizing supplements with the dyson toy vacuum promotion. It's billed as a $29.95 value. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/23/05 at 10:08am Too bad we "independent dealers" aren't apart of the promotion. I can see it right now hurting my sales this holiday season. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/23/05 at 11:21am Chris, do you really believe DYSON cares about you and your business. They will hang you out to dry , I personally want to see you become sucessful as there are not to many independents that make it in this vacuum business. Learn to get around them , Carmine and I wiil help you, as we tried with Dual but he bought back into dysonsB.S. old-timer :-[ |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by VacOMatic on 10/23/05 at 12:08pm the length of this topic's gotta be a record - nearly choked my browser! Have seen any number of times that a mfr introduces a new product through smaller dealers to test the water, then floods the market with same product at lower price, burning the small dealer whose stock was bought at the older, higher price. Wrt manufacturer .. dealer loyality, a thought; Many mfr's today are short sighted because the stockholders demand profits RIGHT NOW. The model they follow is to 1.] get into bigger and bigger stores and move more product, 2.] cut employee expenses (outsource, cut benefits, etc.), 3.] ignore smaller dealers and have no direct customer involvement. Sometimes this model backfires (US car makers, Dell computers, etc.) and the mfr looses market share and becomes less profitable. Other mfrs go for the long sighted view. Wrt Vacs, Miele, Sebo and Lindhaus may be those as they seem to support dealers pretty well. Do these mfrs do well with small as well as big dealers? I've noticed Miele promoting "diamond dealers" lately, suggesting they could be testing the short sight model. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/23/05 at 12:36pm Miele, diamond dealers have stood the test of time, and deserve the reconition, sort of like royals master dealers. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/23/05 at 3:32pm Target has the dyson DC15 the Ball advertized in the Sunday supplement for $499 vice regular price of $599 for $100 drop in price at about 16 percent off MSRP. The first in the Wash DC area and before the Nov 1 price drop as mentioned. The DC14 Animal is advertised for $549 on sale. Interesting. Target does not have the dyson toy vacuum promotion (yet). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/23/05 at 3:46pm The flagship of dysons line is less than the dc-14?. What happened?. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 10/24/05 at 7:04am old-timer wrote:
Old-Timer: The DC15 price drop poses an enigma wrapped in a dilemma for dyson and retailers with respect to the DC14 models. The DC14 prices are squeezed between the DC07 All Floors for $350 at Wal-Mart and the DC15 the Ball at Target for $499. The DC14 models in between with prices in a range from $430-$570 have to give. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Chris on 10/25/05 at 9:04am Looks like some are dropping the price of the DC15's a little early.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by VacOMatic on 10/29/05 at 2:49pm Our local BESTBUY had a floor demo of a DC-15 for $250. It was absolutely filthy inside with string wrapped all around the powerbrush. The salesperson told me it was a loaner but still had the full warranty behind it. It proved very heavy and cumbersome to move around. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 10/29/05 at 7:44pm Since when does b.b. give out loaner vacuums. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Iowa on 12/17/05 at 8:00pm Sams has dropped the DC15 Total Clean and now it's available for sale through independent stores. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Iowa on 12/28/05 at 8:16pm Last time I looked the DC15 is now the only upright (Dyson) vacuum cleaner sold in the following counties. Austria, France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by VacOMatic on 12/30/05 at 1:04am Visiting our local Sears 4 months after the Ball was released, I ran across the vacuum salesperson wielding it about to clean the vacuum zone. The Ball's power brush sounded like a dentist drill and whistle combined but seemed to be cleaning the rugs well. The Hoover Z, by comparison, purrs over those rugs. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/30/05 at 6:43am While the DC15 brush roll and operation is an improvement over the DC07 and DC14, it still falls short of the US vacuum industry. Even the least expensive uprights like Dirt Devil, Eureka, and HOOVER will equal or excel the DC15 in carpet performance consistently. And the DC15 brush roll is still subject to lint and hair wrap like the other dyson models. James Dyson has yet to perfect a good brush roll for his American marketed dysons. Both his uprights and canister fall short. In the USA you have to get the brush roll and operation right if you want to compete with the vacuums sold in the big box retailers. It's a given. Regardless of the prices and quality, the ONE thing you can depend on with all big box retailers' uprights is their rug cleaning capability. They far exceed anything on the European market even much higher priced makes and models. As I said, dyson lacks a basic understanding and historical perspective of the US vacuum industry and market. Dyson falls short time and again because of it. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/30/05 at 9:10pm Quote:
I have noted you saying again and again about how other vacuum cleaners, more specifically Hoovers, are more superior to the Dysons because of their 'tremendious rug cleaning ability'. Well, that may be true, even though a friend of mine was able to pick up a tremendous amount of filth with his DC15 on the carpet previously vacuumed with a Windtunnel, but I must digress. Dyson's are still selling, especially the DC15's. Five out of six Best Buy stores in my home state of Utah have sold out of the DC15's, with more expected to arrive on the shelves next Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/30/05 at 9:13pm I'm sure that the majority of people that went out this year to buy a Dyson did not have 'TOP RUG CLEANING' as his or her immediate reason for obtaining a Dyson. Some like the concept of constant suction. Some were attracted to the looks and vibrant colors of various models in the line up. Some go by strong word of mouth from friends and family and/or internet reviews....I'm sure that many pet owners like the fact that these machines pick up mass amounts of pet hair without choking like many other uprights when suction is lost. Some go by past experiences with their old cleaners and decided to never again buy a vacuum from that previous brand of ownership, and decided to go buy a Dyson. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/30/05 at 9:15pm The Dyson company will not go under because it is not the strongest contender in rug cleaning, not to mention the various respected high priced European marques sold in this country. As some of us may know, Rug cleaning ability is the variable Hoover is trying to use to sway people away from Dysons, and in the direction of their machines. You can see it in their flash ad on their homepage that conveys the message that the Hoover Windtunnel cleans better than the Dyson uprights (as well as portray Dyson owners to be pretentious simpletons), or the stickers they place on their bagless models. I'm sure people have strolled down the vacuum cleaner isles in the many retailers that carry Dyson, and see those old Windtunnels with the stickers that proclaim Windtunnels 58% improved dirt pickup over Dysons right on the collection bin. However, I'm sure people simply walk by as they get distracted by the strange looking, bright colored Dysons right next to it. Some people skip the isles altoghter and simply stop to look at the Dyson DC14/DC15 models on display at the endcaps, like at my local Target and Best Buy stores. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by ExecuteOrder66 on 12/30/05 at 9:17pm Some stores, like several Best Buy stores nearby, don't carry the Windtunnels altogether, and only carry the low end Hoover, Dirt Devil, and Eureka models, as well as the high end Dyson, Vax, and iRobot models. I'm sure Hoover will someday understand that it takes more than goofy gimmicks and anti brand campaigns to manufacture and market a product that will earn consumer trust, company growth, and market share. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 4:00am "Five out of six Best Buy stores in my home state of Utah have sold out of the DC15's, with more expected to arrive on the shelves next Tuesday. " What city (or cities) in Utah are these Best Buy stores located? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 4:04am "I'm sure that the majority of people that went out this year to buy a Dyson did not have 'TOP RUG CLEANING' as his or her immediate reason for obtaining a Dyson. Some like the concept of constant suction. " What good is constant suction if the brush roll and operation can't remove the imbedded dirt in the home's rug quick and easy without several passes. The latter is what wears out carpets and rugs, one of the biggest investments in the home. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 4:09am "However, I'm sure people simply walk by as they get distracted by the strange looking, bright colored Dysons right next to it. Some people skip the isles altoghter and simply stop to look at the Dyson DC14/DC15 models on display at the endcaps, like at my local Target and Best Buy stores." Some dyson buyers may like the unusual colors and design. And buy for those reasons. I'm also positive that most new vacuum buyers with $300 budgets follow the ratings and rankings of Consumer Reports and buy the HOOVER WT because it is consistently rated the best in its class. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 4:15am ExecuteOrder66 wrote:
What Best Buy locations do not carry the HOOVER WT models? Gimmicks sell product initially to unsuspecting consumers with more money than sense. Performance and quality keep them buying and happy with the purchases. HOOVER has passed the test of time. The jury is still out on dyson. Once the dyson repair history is incorporated into the Consumer Reports ranks and ratings, one of test's of time for dyson will be met. Pass or fail? Time will tell. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 4:26am Future Mazda CX 7 or 9 driver and Executive Order 66 appear to be the same posters. HAPPY NEW YEAR and good luck with your vacuum purchases. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by FutureMazdaCX-7or9driver on 12/31/05 at 1:27pm I felt that it was time to change my name. The Star Wars craze is over, now it's time for me to look forward to my next car purchase (thus, the new username with the Mazda CX-7 and CX-9 in it). The Best Buy store in Layton UT, as well as the store in Murray UT no longer had the Windtunnels available: not on display, and not in stock. The machines they had on display, and in stock are the lower end Bissell, Eureka, and Hoover uprights, and the upper end uprights from Dyson and Vax, as well as the iRobot robotic sweeper/vacuum. I am very interested in seeing how the repair history on the current generation of Dyson uprights will be, especially with the DC07 models, which have been around the longest. One problem I see in the future is the posibility of the belt wearing down to the point where it will need to be replaced. Seeing that there are virtually no local service centers certified to work on Dysons, you will most likely have to pay a hefty fee for sending your machine back to the factory in order to have the belt replace......that is to say if the belt ever requires replacing. I believe they implemented an auger shaped brush bar on the DC07/14, besides reducing the pull on carpets, is because of its reduced resistance against many types of carpets; thus, less wear on the belt is present. Hopefully Dyson will go the dual motor route with all future uprights. I'm not very fond of the clutch design myself. Happy New Year!!!! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Dyson DC15 Owner on 12/31/05 at 1:35pm I changed my name also. Anyways Carmine I think the DC15 is one amazing vacuum cleaner. By the way what to you vacuum with? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 1:39pm Are vacuums popular selling items at the Best Buy stores in Layton and Murray? Or, are these BB locations and their clientele primarily consumers of electronics, DVD, and hardware sales.? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 1:46pm "I am very interested in seeing how the repair history on the current generation of Dyson uprights will be, especially with the DC07 models, which have been around the longest. One problem I see in the future is the posibility of the belt wearing down to the point where it will need to be replaced. Seeing that there are virtually no local service centers certified to work on Dysons, you will most likely have to pay a hefty fee for sending your machine back to the factory in order to have the belt replace......that is to say if the belt ever requires replacing." A belt replacement will require the vacuum to be returned to dyson if there are no local dyson dealers in the area to do the job. I would not be a bit surprised if consumers get a bill for a belt replacement with shipping, parts, and labor of $75 or more. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 12/31/05 at 1:49pm Dyson DC15 Owner wrote:
I like your new name, but the DC15 vacuum is not one I would use regularly. Bagless are not my venue, although I have used them in my own household for short intervals at a time. Eureka Whirlwind bagless models for the money are very good performers. I use them and gifte them with good results. I use these makes and models regularly when not testing others: a RICCAR (main level), old style Eureka upright (top level), HOOVER Breathe Easy (WT like) for the finished basement. I also use Dirt Devil bagged handcleaners for the stairs and the Dirt Devil Broom and Swiffer for the bare floors. I use a Shop Vac for the work room and under the bench. I use a HOOVER Swingette daily (with paper bag) to groom my English yellow lab. I have a wall mounted Shop Vac for the attic. From time to time, I also enjoy using the collectibles like the HOOVER Convertibles, Dials, Powers and Concepts, Luxes, GE swivels, and HOOVER Celebrities, HOOVER Spirits and assorted hand and stick vacuums from the past. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 12/31/05 at 1:58pm Any one want to argue the FACT that a bagged 39.95 dirt devil swivel glide upright cleans better than all the dysons out there. And the belt is only 3.00 dollars, and can even be changed by any one that can use a screwdriver. It also has a headlight and height adjustments. DYSOON.............................. OLD-TIMER |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by FutureMazdaCX-7or9driver on 01/01/06 at 12:58am old-timer wrote:
Well, you started this in a DC15 thread, so I will compare the lowly bargain bin vacuum to the DC15 upright. When comparing the hearts of both machines, the motor, the Dyson, as well as seventy percent of all vacuum cleaners on the market will destroy the Dirt Devil by comparison. The Dyson uses a quality made 10-amp Panasonic supplied electric motor, while the Dirt Devil uses some brand x Chinese motor that will never provide as long of a operational life as the Panasonic motor in the Dyson. This can be attributed to the imminent reduced air intake and overheating than any pleated filter bagless vac will experience, not to mention the questionable quality of the motor itself. The agitation system in the Dyson DC15 will surpass that of any bargain bin Dirt Devil. The brushroll on the DC15 will never require a belt replacement thanks to an incorporated direct gear drive with power supplied by a small two amp motor. This direct drive will supply the agitator with top rpm's greater than any brushroll directly driven by the main motor in a single motor setup. Of course, the Dyson will not lose suction, especially when vacuuming up drywall dust and pet hair. The Dirt Devil on the other hand, will lose suction immediately when the pores in the pleated filter clog from a buildup of millions of microscopic particles, which reduces cleaning performance. This then leads to the reduced performance of that Chinese motor, and eventually, its death. To keep the Dirt Devil working properly with sufficient levels of suction, one must take the time to wash the pleated bin filter every one to two weeks. Over time, the frequent exposure to water will surely break down the fibrous structure of the filter, thus, you must purchase a $25-$30 filter replacement to keep the Dirt Devil operational. The only filter on the Dyson that ever needs maintenance is the foam prefilter and cage, which only need to be washed once every six months, and never needs to be replaced. If that Dirt Devil is equipped with a HEPA exhaust filter, that will need to be replaced once every 1-2 years for an additional $10-$20 a piece. On the other hand, the HEPA exhaust filter on all Dyson's are permanent, and never require replacement. The Ball design concept was conceived to provide maximum motion and maneuverability with minimal input from the user. With a flick of your wrist, you can send the DC15 in a sharp or gently curved turn in either the left or right. The rear swivel caster wheels on the Dirt Devil, on the other hand, puts the user through more motion than the front of the machine when executing turns. The caster wheels make vacuuming no more easier, if not - more of a workout, than any vacuum cleaner with fixed rear wheels. Now, lets look at the brands in general. Dyson has become a sales success all throughout the world, and recently in the United States; creating a new segment of mainstream premium priced vacuum cleaners nationwide, with more reputable companies such as Hoover and Eureka's Electrolux following in hot pursuit. Dirt Devil, on the other hand, has remained complacent, and is still offering the same low end rubbish, long since the brands hayday with the original clean air Dirt Devil upright in the early nineties. With innovation and quality products, Dyson has made more of an impact in the market than Dirt Devil ever will. As competitors work even harder to launch better products on the market, Dirt Devil will forever be that Yugo-esque brand of low quality disposable goods at next to nothing prices. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 01/01/06 at 1:34am The Dirt Devil doesn't have to last as long as the Dyson to be a better deal. You could easily buy 10 Dirt Devils plus the bags for less money. Although the Dyson has constant suction, it comes at a price. The air flow is severely restricted by the 7 little pin holes at the tips of the cyclone. It's kind of like always having the constant suction at the level of a bagged vacuum with a half full bag. Consumer Reports made the comment that the Ball had constant suction, but that it was mediocre. This is what I'm talking about. Many bagged vacuums have considerably more suction than Dyson. The graph on the Dyson box is very misleading. They only display comparative data on vacuums that start out with considerably less suction than the Dyson. If the Hoover Windtunnel with 3M filtrete filtration were included, the initial suction would be far higher than that of the Dyson, and even with a filled to manufacturers recommended level would likely be comparable to the Dyson. A bagged vacuum with modern filtrete bags is actually much more efficient than a Dyson. The flow is very simple and depends greatly on the geometry and material composition of the bag. By it's nature, the Dyson has a severely choked air flow in order to maintain constant suction. It's curious that Dyson owners always want to compare their products to cheap (<$100) Dirt Devil, Eureka, and Hoover models that naturally have fewer features. Compare your Dyson to other $400-$500 machines, and see how things compare. Compare the quality of the Dyson to that of a similarly priced Royal, Miele, Sanitaire, Riccar, Simplicity, Sebo or Lindhaus vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 01/01/06 at 8:27am RAT, It seems that no matter what the topic someone (not Dyson owners) will always bring Dyson in as a comparison. Not the other was as you stated. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/01/06 at 10:55am "It's curious that Dyson owners always want to compare their products to cheap (<$100) Dirt Devil, Eureka, and Hoover models that naturally have fewer features. Compare your Dyson to other $400-$500 machines, and see how things compare. Compare the quality of the Dyson to that of a similarly priced Royal, Miele, Sanitaire, Riccar, Simplicity, Sebo or Lindhaus vacuum. " RAT "RAT, It seems that no matter what the topic someone (not Dyson owners) will always bring Dyson in as a comparison. Not the other was as you stated. " HARDSELL Congratulations. As usual dyson supporters avoid and evade the point. Given an opportunity to measure dyson against it's comparable vacuum element, you bob, weave, duck, cut and run. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 01/01/06 at 2:10pm Mazda dude, you did not answer my question, you sounded more like a Dyson infomercial. Rat thanks for your imput. Now i will ask you again does a dirt devil swivel glide BAGGED vacuum clean better than a dyson. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/01/06 at 4:09pm Why did the US Patent Office give James Dyson a patent for the Ball technology if a PCT examiner confirmed the existence of your patent before dyson? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 01/01/06 at 4:48pm To clarify, Kenneth's patent US5794305 was published in 1998 and is described as :- 'A vacuum cleaner having an articulation mechanism which includes hemispherically shaped rearward wheels and spaced forward wheels, and a base member which pivotably couples the front and rear wheels so that the rearward wheels may be pivoted in a plane substantially vertical to the surface to be vacuumed such that only one of the rearward wheels in disposed on the surface when the rearward axis is pivoted from a horizontal. As the vacuum is pushed forward or pulled backward, the vacuum cleaner turns toward the side in which the rearward wheel is disposed on the surface to be vacuumed.' A number of similarities, however it's worth pointing out that there's no patent issued for putting a ball-shaped object on a vacuum cleaner and using it as means for steering - anyone can do it. However, you can be granted a patent for the method of mounting of said device. For example, Dyson's patent will likely cover features such as the air ducting, cross-over valves, motor position, retractable stand, the latch that prevents the machine falling to the side when upright. If it can be demonstrated that Dyson's 'The Ball' invention includes any features listed in Kenneth's, in theory the patent could be withdrawn. Is there any solid evidence that Dyson is withdrawing the DC15 model based on your patent? There's a lot of strong allegations in your post. If you do have a case imminent, ranting about it on a on-line forum isn't in my view, a good idea... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Kenneth_J. on 01/01/06 at 7:58pm Is there any solid evidence that Dyson is withdrawing the DC15 model based on your patent? Not that I know of- NO and i would not want to give that impression at all. Dyson won its case we only have a dispute. its a long road for inventors! :-X |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 4:21am "If you do have a case imminent, ranting about it on a on-line forum isn't in my view, a good idea... " M00seUK I take umbrage with your remark for two reasons: First, the "ball technology" obviously is not your invention so its very easy for you to be objective in your criticism. You are critical of Kenneth J. in large part because you like and sell dysons; Second, the act of ranting in the English vernacular involves verbal and oral outcries with one's mouth that are heard by the ear. Ranting is not words written down and read on a public Forum. Your criticism in particular indicates a certain degree of irritation with Kenneth J. (probably for personal and professional motives). I recommend you examine your conscience for the reasons for the harshness of your remark. Kenneth J. is more than entitled to a hearing and due process to make his patent infringement case against dyson. He has the same right to post his opinion on this Forum as you do to object to it. Kenneth J. is entitled to the same respect for his rights as James Dyson in his against HOOVER. Carmine D. |
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Title: "Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 4:28am its a long road for inventors! :-X Kenneth J. I'm sorry to see that you removed your post about the patent you secured for your ball technology and the "dispute" you have with James Dyson and his law team. :( It is probably one of the Forum's most sincere and honest factual posts about potential patent infringement ever. You got bullied by M00seUK. Not a good sign for a contender in a potential lawusit against a mutimillionaire (James Dyson) with best lawyers that money can buy. Probably the greatest American inventor of the 20th Century Thomas Alva Edison said that "genius is 99 percent perspiration and 1 percent inspiration." I would add too that I hope you have a darn good lawyer to make your case. Washington DC is the place to find one. As was mentioned on the Forum when the Ball was announced, the ball vacuum wheel was done by General Electric in the early 60's on a lightweight upright vacuum. THe concept bombed and the vacuum is only a memory now. The GE upright cleaned the rugs quite well too and was easy and simple to use. It was priced right also. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 01/02/06 at 7:44am Carmine, will you ever comprehend. I only stated that someone always manages to compare every vacuum with the Dyson. This is only natural since it is the standard to be judged by. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 8:15am HARDSELL wrote:
My comprehension is fine. I think RAT said it eloquently when he stated that dyson users (like yorself) always compare their dysons to the less expensive Dirt Devils, Eurekas and HOOVERs. And traditionally avoid comparisons of dyson to vacuums in the same price element: Miele, RICCAR, Sebo, Lindhaus. How's that working for you? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 01/02/06 at 10:41am Carmine, Carmine, Carmine... 'was telling to see how long your message of peace to all in the new year would last... To clarify (again) I don't and I have never sold vacuum cleaners in any capacity, Dyson or otherwise. I try to be objective in my posts, I'm not a vacuum cleaner or indeed Dyson obsessive, I simply admire a lot of what that particular company and it's people have done and continue to do. I even welcome your anti-Dyson posts at times, this forum would doubtlessly be a boring Dyson love-in without them. I'll leave it to good people of this forum to decide who's that biggest vac brand 'fan boy', my objective posts against yours which routinely mention Oreck and Hoover without ever being overly critical on either. Nice try, but I don't think anyone was fooled by your assumption and attempt to side with Kenneth J. that I was 'bullying' him in any way. His post (since removed) was, *in my view* incoherent and 'ranting'. Certainly, try that tact in a court of law and you won't get very far. Yes, I can understand the issue from his point of view - to have put the ground work in to patenting an idea, then to watch as a major player tries to capitalise of a similar concept, with their own patent. If, as and when his alleged legal case goes ahead, I hope he is treated fairly and awarded his dues if it can be shown that there was any infringement. But equally, I can see it from Dyson's point of view. To have independently spent millions developing, testing and marketing 'The Ball', only to have a claimant challenge against their own patent for a vaguely similar idea. I think it's been mentioned on this forum in the past, that putting a 'ball' on a vacuum cleaner has been done before, but that no one previously has been able to bring it to market and make it work? Why was Kenneth J's posts removed? Am I right in thinking that only a forum mod can do this? His initial post was full of unfounded allegations against Dyson. Certainly, if I was in legal dispute with someone, I wouldn't risk posting such details and if I was a forum mod, I wouldn't risk carrying (publishing) them. That's part of the problem; unlike a newspaper article, you're not going get a right of reply here from Dyson. Kenneth describes not being treated fairly, but we have no idea of the full background and won't until such a case is concluded. Did he offer the patent in full to Dyson for 20,000 USD or demand 100 USD on every model sold, for example? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 12:58pm A poster has the ability to remove a post. Check the options on the top of the message. Stick to the issue: Your 2 posts against Kenneth J. There were only two posts to Kenneth J's post before he removed his. Yours and mine. Since my post was in the form of a question and yours (former and latter) is a personal attack, I stand on my statement that Kenneth J. removed his post due to your bullying. I think Kenneth J.'s account (sad to see it removed) of his treatment by James Dyson and the dyson lawyers speaks volumes about the man and his company. The truth will come out and when it does I hope Kenneth J. gets his justice. He deserves it. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 1:21pm "His post (since removed) was, *in my view* incoherent and 'ranting'. Certainly, try that tact in a court of law and you won't get very far. " M00seUK "Certainly, if I was in legal dispute with someone, I wouldn't risk posting such details and if I was a forum mod, I wouldn't risk carrying (publishing) them." M00seUK That's you and your opinions. You have neither the right nor the privilege to make those statements about and/or for someone else. Especially someone who you do not know and who did not ask. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 1:24pm "His initial post was full of unfounded allegations against Dyson. " M00seUK I disagree. I didn't see any allegations against dyson. I saw a statement of fact that a PCT examiner recognized and confimed Kenneth J.'s patent to the ball technology for a vacuum cleaner application in 1998 years before dyson brought the DC15 to market. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/02/06 at 1:34pm "I think it's been mentioned on this forum in the past, that putting a 'ball' on a vacuum cleaner has been done before, but that no one previously has been able to bring it to market and make it work?" M00seUK I said it and will again for the benefit of your question. GE brought it to market on an upright vacuum cleaner in the early 60's. It worked fine. There was no demand for it by American consumers. The GE faded from the US market. It appears history is about to repeat itself with the DC15. An apt epilogue for dyson, his lawyers and his product. Maybe that will be Kenneth J's justice. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 1:25pm BEST BUY in Woodbridge VA, which seems to be the trend setter for the rest of the BEST BUY stores nationwide, reduced the prices on ALL dysons in stock. The DC15 which was marked down in October 2005 from $599 to $499 is now $473 and no longer on the end-cap position. It was displaced by the DC07 All Floors for $369. Interesting? Recall the DC07 All Floors was dropped at this store in June 2005 because it was not part of the "planogram" after the DC15 was added. Well, its back (at least for now) and sharing the end cap position with the DC07 Animal. Any thoughts on the reversal? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 01/06/06 at 2:16pm Sorry, I haven't been around for a few weeks. Do you mean Dyson's are still in Best Buy, that can't be right, isn't this 2006? Are you also saying 2 Dysons share a premium endcap position at the international trendsetting Woodbridge VA location? It must be a tough fallback position to go from putting you years of experience and consulting expertise on claiming that Dyson would be cut out at best buy all together to "Ummm....Well.... it's not Dyson's top price point, just two others on the endcap...." |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:16pm If you read my prediction, I believe I say dysons will be culled or dropped completely from BEST BUY and other retailers in 2005. The DC11 is gone (Feb 2005) and for the last 6 months the DC07 All Floors was not sold (at least at the Woodbridge VA location). It just made a return to the endcap position. I believe I can accurately conclude the dysons were culled from the BEST BUY at Woodbridge and other retailers based on the DC11 and DC07. BTW when I made the prediction, the DC11 was still very much a part of the dyson product line, except in Woodbridge which dumped it in October 2004. Although I recall you disagreed with me because you "called" the store and were told it was still on the shelves. As I accurately stated they were no longer being sold new. The ones still in stock were repacks and refurbs from the returns. BEST BUY added the VAX line in July 2005 (which competes head on against dyson) and the Electrolux line in September 2005. The Electrolux upright and canister are in the same price ranges as the dysons and compete for that market. As the new year 2006 begins, BEST BUY reduces the prices not for one model, or 2, or 3 BUT EVERY DYSON MODEL and recalls the DC07 which was dropped for 6 months. If you are as smart as you think you are, maybe you can propose your rationale for these occurences. I'm all ears (and eyes). You have the Forum. Any thoughts? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/06/06 at 3:21pm Not being a vacuum business "expert" or anything, but is Dyson the only vacuum company that discontinues models? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:25pm BTW here's a possible clue: ALL OTHER VACUUM PRICES AT THE BEST BUY IN WOODBRIDGE VA stayed the same as the end of last year 2005. Except of course all the dyson prices. Here's another possible clue: Some (a considerable part thereof) of the dyson shelf space at the WOODBRIDGE VA location has been preempted by the IRobotic Rhoomba and VAX boxed vacuums and displays. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:29pm volntitan wrote:
Good question. Yes, as an expert in the vacuum industry for the last 50 plus years, dyson is the only vacuum company that discontinued a new model after 9 months on the US market. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/06/06 at 3:29pm Little Best Buy info for you. Just talked to my folks who are down in Naples, FL and asked them to see if the Best Buy there had any floor or return Vacuums that they could bring back with them. Dad said they had some Eureka and Hoover returns. The Best Buy guy tried to get them to by some vacuum called Vax, which according to my Dad, is the product, because of overhead, that BB pushes. Dysons they were sold out of and were waiting for the shipment next Tuesday. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:31pm And I stand on my earlier prediction that the DC15 will be next. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:38pm "Dysons they were sold out of and were waiting for the shipment next Tuesday. " They have been sold out at some retailers since long before Christmas. While other retailers have pallet loads that don't sell. Interesting contrast for such a popular selling product. I can't imagine any retailers with a historical record of sales, allowing themselves to be sold out of their most popular sellng vacuum cleaner weeks before and after Christmas. THis is the time of the year when retailers record their most sales for the year including vacuums. Amazing? It just ain't normal. It doesn't float. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 01/06/06 at 3:41pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
No your statement was " best buy (and possibly other retailers who sell new vacuums) will abandon the dyson product line in 2005." You also have bragged that you made a correct prediction that the DC07 was discontinued at Best Buy, and repeatedly have stated that as fact. Yet now you criticize it for being moved to the end cap? Come on now it is a vacuum, hardly seems worth throwing out honesty and integrity.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 3:57pm Here's what I said: "Best Buy (and possibly other retailers who sell new vacuums) will abandon the dyson product line in 2005. There are a number of reasons and a collection of past and present business evidence to draw this conclusion (which I will save for later post(s). Also for the future, Best Buy (and other retailers who carry and sell vacuums) may cull other makes and models of vacuums too. Time will tell. " Didn't the Forum banner boy for dyson stop selling new dysons even before the year ended? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/06/06 at 4:00pm I didn't say that they were sold out before christmas. The guy told my dad that at their Best Buy location in Naples, FL, which is the nicest best buy out there, that they can't keep them in stock. BTW, they were also sold out of and haven't gotten any new ones in of the Apple Ipod Video and Xbox 360. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 4:03pm "You also have bragged that you made a correct prediction that the DC07 was discontinued at Best Buy, and repeatedly have stated that as fact. Yet now you criticize it for being moved to the end cap?" I was asking if anyone had any thoughts on why a model that was dropped from the shelves for 6 months (DC07 All Floors) after the DC15 was launched is now reinstalled. AND coincidentally the price of the model it was preempted by has dropped over $125 in 2 months? And a clue or two was thrown in for you to use. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 4:06pm volntitan wrote:
I never said you did. Jessh, ligh'en up. It's only a vacuum. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/06/06 at 4:09pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Plenty light, thanks. |
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Title: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/06/06 at 4:24pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Maybe too light on my exact quote. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/08/06 at 12:50pm Here's a strange twist in the Sunday BEST BUY supplement. THe DC15 and DC14 Full Access get the feature seature. BUT at $499.99 and the DC14 comes with the $69.95 hand tool FREE exept for on-line buyers. Sound good? Except there's ONE minor but important detail. BEST BUY IN WOODBRIDGE VA is selling both these models at a regular every day price of $473. Interesting? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/09/06 at 8:50am Why is the fact that a store in VA is selling it cheaper that interesting? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 01/09/06 at 11:26am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Remember that we were told that manufacturers always pay for endcap space. Presumably, a manufacturer could pay to keep a product on the shelf indefinitely if desired. I talked to my local Best Buy manager over the weekend. He told me that they had planned to drop the Ball on January 1st, but they changed their minds. He said that a bunch of Dyson enthusiasts from a vacuum forum had taken up a large collection of money and were paying Best Buy to keep the vacuums on the shelf for at least a couple more months. The manager said that this is the first time he's seen anything like this happen during his 30 year career. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/09/06 at 11:29am You don't really believe that, right? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 01/09/06 at 2:11pm RAT wrote:
Thanks RAT, I needed that today.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/09/06 at 4:12pm "Remember that we were told that manufacturers always pay for endcap space. Presumably, a manufacturer could pay to keep a product on the shelf indefinitely if desired. " RAT Unless the manufacturer owned and operated the store(s). ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by volntitan on 01/09/06 at 4:18pm Paying for an end cap display is one thing, paying to keep product on the shleve is another. End Caps are a for of POP advertising. Advertisers pay for that. Like when Coke is at the end of an aisle at Kroger, they have payed for that right. But Carmine is right, unless the store is owned by the manufacturer, thye won't just keep product on the shelf because they had been paid by the manufacturer to do so. Shelf space is too valuable for that. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 01/09/06 at 4:59pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Like a HOOVER-MAYTAG store. Soon to be HOOVER-Whirlpool store. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 01/11/06 at 7:18pm Howdy all, I've surprised heck out of myself . . . I almost sold a Dyson. I was dragging around my local Costco looking for one thing or another to waste money on -- as usual -- and discovered they'd moved the "vacuum cleaner display." (That's a joke.) A little looking led me to discover that the three or four vacuums they set out had been moved to another shelf midway between the meat department and the tools and garage accessories. There was a man there who was looking over a white and silver Dyson which I'd long decided impressed me more by way of looks than the rest of the line. He was having some difficulty figuring things out so I stopped to help. I showed him how to get the hose and wand free of the cleaner, pointed out how to empty it and informed him where the filters were. Also, I stated Dyson's party line, per its manual, about cleaning the filters every six months with nary a trace of condescension. I have no real comment to make other than my wondering at Dyson's user friendliness. After many years, vacuums are no mystery to me but detaching and re-attaching the dust bin plus switching to tools and back again seems to prove a bit of a challenge when you first put your hand on the thing. Nonetheless, I went on to point out the machine's features in a non-biased manner and walked away feeling like a right good Christian. BUT -- I couldn't still help but believe that it's us with the bagged vacuums who'll inherit the Earth. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 01/30/06 at 4:19pm I haven't seen the DC15 commercial in months. And it's been 11 months sense the DC15 was launched in the UK. It's about time Dyson comes out with something new like the DC12. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 02/04/06 at 7:45pm I was shopping at wally world the other day "gross" and I didn't see any Dyson's at all on display. I see they are now only sold online. DC15 wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/04/06 at 8:56pm THe Wal*Mart store in Woodbridge Va had a quantity of the DC07 All Carpet models (its exclusive dyson for a short lived period) which are refurbs and repacks. Whenever shelf space allowed and the store manager was inclined, one of these repacks/refurbs was put out. No price was marked. I have never seen a new DC07 All Floors on this store's shelf. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vacuuman on 02/04/06 at 9:37pm IT IS OFFICIAL: Wal-Mart will no longer carry Dyson, they are just selling out of what they have in stock. Dysons will still be sold in Sam's Club though. I heard this from the Dyson rep. that comes to our store. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/05/06 at 2:48am vacuuman wrote:
The Sam's Club in Woodbridge VA will no longer carry and sell the DC15 Ball (Total Clean) because of the poor sales during the Holiday season and after. At $529 it was too overpriced for the Sam's clientele ($50K per year). I'm sure there are other reasons also for it's lack of sales. But that is the excuse being used. I believe the DC15 Total Clean was an exclusive dyson model for Sam's just as the DC07 All Carpet was for Wal*Mart. Both dyson models because of their prices were poor products for the stores. With the DC15 Yellow Ball priced at $499 before 20 percent discounts by some retailers, the sales of the Total Clean were a total disaster for Sam's (at the Woodbridge store). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 02/05/06 at 9:31am DC15 wrote:
I'd like a DC12 too and trying to second guess Dyson's launch strategy is always a fun game. I'm meant to be moving to a new place in the city shortly, which is unlikely to have the storage space for an upright, yet I'm loath to buy a Dyson canister, in case a new model is imminent for release. I suspect that DC12 or a model similar to it will be launched in other territories during this year. The DC12 model was devised for the Japanese market - as you might expect, it's tiny size and high tech features make it much more appealing to them than might be appreciated by people elsewhere, for it's upper margin pricing - selling for typically 3 1/2 times the price of similar cleaners. However, since it offers a unique mix of 1)Small profile 2)SR motor 3)Remote diagnostics 4)Dust separation and 5)Tatami mat tool - it takes it's market share through being a status symbol / object of desire. In the last year, a number of additional models have been added to the DC12 line up. These replace the SR motor with a more traditional type, reflected in a lower price point. Presumably, a supplier has approached Dyson with a suitable sized model or Dyson's motor production line is producing one to this spec. This somewhat clears the way for a launch elsewhere; they can have an entry level product, alongside a super-premium, with shared components, in much the same way as DC14 is to DC15. However, the DC12 (so-called 'talking' / 'phone-home') vacuum has already had a range of TV / press publicity when it was initially developed. Dyson crucially need to add yet another new feature to get decent exposure. In my mind, it's either going to involve a release of the much hyped autonomous cleaner, a traditional canister with a new 'killer' feature or both. It's quite easy to imagine the powered cleaning head developed for the DC15 being retro-fitted to a canister, to provide a powerhead cleaner. We can only speculate as to why this hasn't been the case over the last two years. It's not that novel, it's done elsewhere and Dyson would like to try introducing something a bit special first? A new type of agitating cleaning head? One that doesn't necessarily require the fragile cabling run of a powerhead and can be driven by a wind turbine method? With regards to the autonomous cleaner, if Dyson don't release it during this year, in my view, they're at risk of missing this boat altogether. Fact is that the current crop autonomous cleaners are relatively popular, but aside from large debris removal, people are deluding themselves if they think they're a total replacement for a cleaner appliance. Affordable battery technology / performance is the biggest obstacle. Dyson have a patent pending on a mains cable detection method, which would be a way to introduce a low cost, mass market product of this type. But lets face it, it isn't as sexy as one that isn't tethered to a powerpoint, so if it does see the light of day, I'd personally be expecting to see a battery-based option alongside it. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/05/06 at 12:01pm "With regards to the autonomous cleaner, if Dyson don't release it during this year, in my view, they're at risk of missing this boat altogether." M00seUK IRobot and the Rhomba vacuums have grabbed the market in the USA with models readily available in all retail stores. It's virtually the only robotic vacuum mass marketed in the USA, primarily because of performance and price. The prices range from the basic $150 model to $400 for the top of the line with several price models in between. IRobot's robotic vacuums were marketed on the USA TV shopping networks first in October 2002 with much success and huge sales. Slowly the robotic vacuums began appearing in selected retail stores in the USA. Then IRobot took the company public recently with a successful IPO and made a massive campaign to get their robotic vacuums in all the major USA retailers before the 2005 Holiday season. They are right alongside the vacuums. They have been a huge success with record sales year after year. In their first 6 months of launch in the USA, the maker claimed over 500,000 were sold. I expect the record sales to continue led in large part by the glowing ratings and reviews afforded the Rhomba vacuums by Consumer Reports in February 2006. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 02/05/06 at 3:38pm By all accounts, the Rhomba models have done well in the market to date. I especially like the idea of the Scooba model; it sounds perfect if you have large non-carpeted areas - it's likely it'll be a hit in the commercial area also, as and when it's adapted further. Who will win out, though? A robotics specialist trying to do vacuum cleaners or a vacuum cleaner specialist trying to do robotics? The likes of Dyson have a lot of experience to bring from their own sector. Although the Rhomba is yet to reach perfection, it's seen continual improvement over the years and is certainly holding its own for the moment. What about any other players? I'm sure LG will have something in the works... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/05/06 at 5:10pm You thought dyson would have to bring the robotic vacuum to market this year to reasonably compete in the market. I'm not sure if you are talking the UK market, USA, or both. IRobotics already has a locktite hold on the robotic vacuum market in the USA. (IMHO). There are a handful of other robotics in the USA. But they are not even a close second to IRobot. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 02/05/06 at 5:38pm I've seen the iRobot Roomba and Electrolux Trilobite on display in stores, but there appears to be next to no 'buzz' surrounding them. The vast majority of people aren't aware they exist. I can't even recall them being advertised on TV. I'd say there's a bigger market for such a cleaner in parts of the US than in the UK. It wouldn't be practical in a small terrace house here, over using a canister. Whereas I've stayed at houses in LA / Orange County where it's been quite possible to get lost - perfect floor area for a robotic vacuum cleaner! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/07/06 at 9:43am In looking over thecomparison chart of Dyson in it's advertisement I see they are or have tested toshow performance cleaners with less airpower than Dyson. If Dyson were to do an honest comparison it might be different. Dyson DC-15 as I recall has the least air watts power than it's predecessors. To some this comparison chart could be called false advertising. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/07/06 at 7:41pm "In looking over thecomparison chart of Dyson in it's advertisement I see they are or have tested toshow performance cleaners with less airpower than Dyson. If Dyson were to do an honest comparison it might be different. Dyson DC-15 as I recall has the least air watts power than it's predecessors. To some this comparison chart could be called false advertising. " tiger21, Who besides ypu says that Dyson does not do an honest comparison? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 02/07/06 at 9:23pm HARDSELL wrote:
I do. There are a lot of vacuums that start out with higher suction (as measured in airwatts) than Dyson. For example, most Aerus Lux vacuums claim to have 395 airwatts. A Hoover Windtunnel starts out with far more suction than a Dyson. There are many vacuums that start out with more. Yet in the advertisements, all of the lines on the chart show air flow starting far below the Dyson's 270 airwatts (DC07). The airwatts for the DC14 are 250 and 220 for the Ball. Another misleading point. Dysons are not the only vacuums that maintain their suction. They also forget to mention that Rainbow was the first. I also disagree with the comment that the Dyson is the most powerful upright, given that it only gets middling results in the Consumer Reports testing for carpet cleaning. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/07/06 at 9:26pm I can't speak for Tiger21 but I agree with him. HOOVER and ORECK do too and both are suing dyson for false advertising claims. That puts Tiger in pretty good high powered company. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/07/06 at 9:33pm It does not matter how strong you start. It is how strong you finish. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 02/07/06 at 10:25pm HARDSELL wrote:
The question is how much dirt can the Hoover, Royal, Oreck, Lux, Eureka, Miele, Panasonic, Kenmore, Riccar, Simplicity, etc. pick up before the performance drops below the performance of the Dyson. Better quality bags don't suffer the same suction drop off as the cheapie bags. The other point worth mentioning is that suction is only one piece of the puzzle. Carpet brushing and agitation with a good brush roll design and nozzle design are important factors in carpet cleaning ability. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/08/06 at 7:20am RAT wrote:
RAT: Ultimately the legal haggling over false advertising claims among HOOVER and dyson, and ORECK and dyson will come down to your poignant point. It's not just suction BUT brush bar too and the combination of both technologies for effective rug cleaning and grooming. And the time it takes to do it. This is a tried and true standard in the USA rug industry and has been for almost 100 years when rug owners cleaned their carpets the old fashioned way. Hang over the line and beat. The evidence is plain to see. Compare the brush bars. Perform the CRI and ASTM tests. What are the results? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/08/06 at 3:02pm Since when did the brush sweep dirt into the bag or chamber? Without suction the brush does nothing more than relocate the dirt and dust around the room. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/08/06 at 3:07pm Since when does suction alone get the deep down embedded dirt (that wears out a carpet prematurely) in the rugs and carpet? Not to mention grooming the rug and carpet fibers. Hence suction and agitation. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/08/06 at 3:21pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
There's no doubt suction and agitation work synergistically in providing superior cleaning performance. But if I only had more of one choice than the other it would be a vacuum with consistently strong suction/CFM over agitation. Without air flow, agitation is rather useless. Bruce |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/08/06 at 3:30pm Bruce wrote:
I think most vacuum consumers would say it depends on the rug as to what does the best job. No doubt the reason that CRI qualifies its findings and results. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 02/08/06 at 5:26pm Hi, You can go a pretty long way with a "good" straight suction canister, if used regularly, on low pile carpeting. Yet, the deeper its pile, the more a rug is a challenge to thoroughly clean and keep clean if you're thinking total carpet care. Still, keeping in mind Shakespeare's practical-minded thought about missing the mark or running past it, vacuum type and power will always remain a variable as, home to home, situations are different. There are lots people who have little rug traffic and thicker carpeting may fare quite well in these instances as a good canister or a less aggressive upright may prove to be just the ticket. Carpeting, low or high pile, of course benefits much from a vacuum that packs power in its punch if there's a lot of traffic and tracked in stuff that it has to endure. The user also benefits in that higher suction and higher efficiency by way of an agitator cut the time factor in achieving thorough cleaning. BUT -- per an old CR teaching, I thoroughly believe that you can get the same result with just about any vacuum you use. The issue then becomes the time it takes to accomplish it. Venson Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot That it do singe yourself: we may outrun, By violent swiftness, that which we run at, And lose by over-running. (From good ol' Will Shakespeare's "Henry the VIII".) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/08/06 at 5:36pm Venson: You hit on some very good gems. I would say many older retired couples/singles with no little ones, find the ORECK vacuums wonderful for their plush extravagant wall to wall carpetting. And I'm sure you noted that the CRI has the time and effort quantifiers of 4 passes to extract the dirt. (Not to mention the second most quoted authority in literature: William Shakespeare). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 02/08/06 at 6:09pm Hi Carmine, Hey, how's it going? That's a thing I like to emphasize -- it doesn't always take supercharged and jet-powered devices to keep a rug clean or a household looking in order. And yes I do think this proves true for households minus pets, kids and frequent social events. Re rug cleaning -- my info covers both sides of the fence. Seven passes constitute thorough cleaning when using a straight-suction canister and four passes when using an upright. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/09/06 at 6:52am In years gone by, most people spent one day (or the better part of it) of the week vacuuming and dusting the house. It was a necessity because of the vacuum's limitations. Today a few quick strokes for the traffic areas is considered vacuuming the rugs in most households. :) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/09/06 at 8:35pm "In years gone by, most people spent one day (or the better part of it) of the week vacuuming and dusting the house. It was a necessity because of the vacuum's limitations. Today a few quick strokes for the traffic areas is considered vacuuming the rugs in most households" And you want us to believe that the old Hoovers are better than Dyson. Too funny Carmine. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 02/09/06 at 8:44pm How many 35 year old Dysons you see? old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 02/09/06 at 9:50pm Hi Hardsell, I'd make an exception regarding the performance of "old Hoovers" as they had a whole lot going on when it came to rug cleaning. Stiff brushes AND those good old smooth metal beater bars. They cleaned quite well and didn't require a lot of wattage to do it. This idea still prevails today when it gets down to basics. When there's dirt -- and a lot of it -- the plain old bag in the back Hoover, Sanitaire, etc., are still seen on the job in heavy traffic situations. Dyson hasn't quite got there yet. How did the old Hoover fall short? Air filtration. I would wonder how much of what was cleaned up landed back on what had just been wiped up by most vacuums with shake-out bags during the pre-HEPA era. That considered, in my books, many oldies but goodies still set the standard. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 02/09/06 at 10:31pm My apologies for being redundant. I've just noted that my statements were already put forth, more or less, by someone else several posts ago. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/09/06 at 11:01pm old-timer wrote:
About the same as the number of 35 year old IPOD's, digital cameras or laptop computers. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 02/09/06 at 11:12pm I feel the new technology[bagless cyclonic] routine coming.The gig is up JimB.. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/17/06 at 2:59pm Hi old-timer, As you know, I prefer canisters to uprights any day of the week. I'm not sure how long the bagless craze will last. Unfortunately, the majority of big box stores seem to have a high percentage of bagless on display. Last time I visited Walmart they had maybe one or two low-end bagged machines and the rest (over 8) were all bagless with those dreaded pleated dirt bin filters. I wonder how long it will take consumers to finally realize they don't work for long? Bruce |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/17/06 at 3:27pm Bruce wrote:
The big box retailers sell a preponderence of the less expensive makes and models which happen also to be bagless. The independent vacuum cleaner stores that sell the high end premium vacuums, both upright and canister, are all bagged. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 02/17/06 at 3:37pm Hi Bruce and Carmine .please dont tell anyone about the bin filters, at least until we sell out of them. There is more money in the filters than selling the vacuums. [Example] Hoover empower sold new 69.95. 2 bin filters twice a year 50.00. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/17/06 at 4:26pm old-timer wrote:
Old-Timer: At least the HOOVER bin filters, teflon coated, are washable and reusable. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 02/17/06 at 5:37pm Carmine, We both know about the teflon coated filters , To clean them properly it takes over a half an hour, and thats if you dont wreck them during the cleaning process[canned air?]. It's just not worth the time and aggravation, the average customer will not do it either. So the upkeep on these inexpensive vacuums within 1 year cost more than the initial cost. I really dislike all bagless uprights. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/18/06 at 3:13am Ditto, worse than cleaning cloth bags. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/20/06 at 10:23am It seems that Dyson is changing some things on their site. They no longer tell you 270 Airwatts power on DC07, 240 Airwatts power on DC14, or 220 Airwatts power on DC15. They say airwatts tells you how good it is but they put the following: DC07- 12 amps , 18.56 lbs., DC 14- 12 Amps, 18.56 lbs. , DC-15 -10 Amps- almost 20 lbs ( temporarily out of stock). |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 02/20/06 at 11:39am There's changes on the Dyson homepage as well, a new promo animation :- http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/6738/dysonpromo3uo.gif Using a popular technique of showing what horrors other cleaners, without 'constant suction' (re-wording?) leave behind. It'll likely sell a few more mattresses tools as well! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/20/06 at 2:16pm Hello M00seUK: This dyson TV commercial aired on the Monday morning ABC news network today at 7:30 AM. Conspicuously absent from the commercial both verbally and in writing, the dyson trade mark words: Never Loses Suction. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 02/20/06 at 2:42pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Ah, I see. So it's Dyson delivers; 'constant suction' vs. 'no loss of suction' - one suggests the suction doesn't drop *noticeably*, the other - that it doesn't drop *at all*? The 'no loss of suction' claim has been challenged before in the courts and awarded in Dyson's favour, although this was outside the US. Maybe we're reading too much in to this? These ads will be from the newly appointed agency. It wouldn't surprise me if they're trying to make a good impression by creating an original campaign from the ground up, including some of the wording. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/20/06 at 2:49pm M00seUK wrote:
That's certainly a rational explanation. However, the new TV campaign omits the trade mark words AND so do the most recent dyson newsprint advertisings. The two facts are too coincidental to me to be explained off as making too much out of the absence of the dyson trade mark words: Never Loses Suction. I think it goes much deeper for dyson to change what conceivably has been working so well for its sales. (IMHO). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/20/06 at 2:57pm Sounds like nit picking to me Carmine. Constant suction, no loss of suction.... the same thing. But go ahead and spew pages of useless speculation if it makes you rattle! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 02/20/06 at 3:36pm The new commerical wasn't bad. The new ads started on the 19th. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/20/06 at 4:52pm Bruce wrote:
Bruce: The lawsuits by both HOOVER and ORECK against dyson in Federal Court over false advertising claims are factual and not speculation. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/20/06 at 5:03pm I hope we are not headed down the "I can only talk about it crypitacally to help my arguments when cornered" path. However, can you point to a reference source on your litigation claims as to what the claims by which parties are? As I recall I thought I read that Dyson brought suit against Hoover first. The suit you are now touting seems to be the continuation of the same suit I believe at one point you were claiming did not exist. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/20/06 at 5:31pm Jim B, I tried the other day to get some answers from Dyson on a few questions. 1) Who were the competitors listed on the ad chart? Classified 2) Why haven't you tried and reported on cleaners that started with more suction than Dyson? No comment 3) Will you test with CRI? No Comment What do you think about CRI testing? No comment |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 02/20/06 at 5:57pm Tiger21, I'm going to give you my opinion about this, Dyson 's out to make a big hit in a short time in the states. Sell out to someone else, and stick it to the american public. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 02/20/06 at 6:28pm There is definately a lunatic fringe posting to this forum. Dyson will not 'sell out' and 'stick it to the American Public" (we'll leave that for the low down Hoover company to do). Dyson is the number one selling vacuum cleaner in the world. Period. Dyson has made a mark on the vacuum cleaner industry that will never be erased. ALL vacuum cleaners will use Dyson's cyclonic filtration system sooner or later (just like all vacuums copied Air-Way's disposable bag). Why? Because it's BETTER THAN BAGS! Wasting money on disposable bags when something better exists (the Dyson) is like owning a car that has to be pulled by a horse. It's outdated, outmoded, and outclassed by something (Dyson) that actually WORKS PROPERLY. Remember that the candle makers shouted plenty about the dangers of electricity when electric lights came along. Carmine and his old cronies are doing the same thing. Just like the candle makers of old, Carmine and his nursing home buddies will die out (soon I hope), leaving the world free to enjoy a BETTER WAY (Dyson) and never looking back to the "horse and buggy days" of disposable bags. Rest in Pieces Carmine, Rest in Peace. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/20/06 at 6:32pm "Dyson is the number one selling vacuum cleaner in the world. Period. " Dualcyclone Do you have sales data to support this claim? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/20/06 at 6:37pm "However, can you point to a reference source on your litigation claims as to what the claims by which parties are? " There was one and only ONE (false) claim that dyson made that was a "constant" source of dispute by the vacuum industry. It was the dyson trade mark words that accompanied all printed dyson product materials, TV advertisements, and newspaper ads (until recently). The claim (false): NEVER LOSES SUCTION. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/20/06 at 7:58pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Why is it a false claim. When the vacuum is used according to instructions it certainly will never loose suction.... period. Can't wait to see how the lawsuit pans out! Hoover and Oreck are going to loose big time. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/20/06 at 10:25pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Do you have data to prove otherwise? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Karl on 02/21/06 at 1:44am Dyson have changed their ad agency, hence the new wording and style of their advertisements. Simple explanation. BTW, after thorough searching I can find no evidence of any law suits in progress between Dyson and Oreck, perhaps someone can point me in the right direction? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 3:21am Karl: Consumer Reports spilled the beans about the Federal lawsuits in the recent edition that rates vacuums (March 2006). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 8:32am Bruce wrote:
You added the caveat, not dyson. What exactly does that mean: Use according to instructions? Would a third party with a vested interest in the information (buyer) understand what is meant? Any person can make a claim about a product as a user and a buyer. It's called pride in ownership. When a product rep makes the claim, its called sales puffing. When a company makes that claim in print and on the air, then it should be prepared to provide the proof. The company discloses (if asked) the specifics about how it was gotten (i.e. the names of makes and models) and their results. Are the test results approved by the vacuum industry? Are the results obtained in the tests sanctioned by the vacuum industry for this use? Are these lab test results obtained by the manufacturer? What makes and model vacuums are used for the manufacturer's tests? In the absence of disclosing the above facts, the company is "potentially" misrepresenting its product and others like it to third parties relying on the information. Without disclosing the proof to the public, especially when asked, the company's claim is unsubstantiated: i.e. false. (IMHO) NEVER LOSES SUCTION: Where's the proof? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 02/21/06 at 8:34am The press realease link on Dyson US web site has a couple new pictures. What can this mean? http://www.dyson.com/press/thms/15.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/21/06 at 12:02pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Are you saying without a doubt that the phrase "Cyclonic technology offers powerful cleaning with no loss of suction" is beyond a doubt a false claim? Seems like a strong accusation and definitely legally actionable. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 1:18pm JimB wrote:
If a company makes a verbal or written claim about its product in relation to other like products without disclosing the proof and specifics (especially when asked to do so), the claim is potentially misrepresentation and therefore false. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/21/06 at 1:23pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Interesting, as this quote was a direct Hoover claim about the Fusion, you are saying you agree Dyson can be successful in action against Hoover for claiming it as fact? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 3:15pm JimB wrote:
HOOVER offers the test name/number, test provider, and other makes and models tested with the FUSION on the claim. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/21/06 at 3:31pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
That would be incorrect Dyson offers a test Number and which lab provided the test results, Hoover does not divulge which lab provided the test results. Furthermore I believe you are confused if you are stating other models tested would have anything do to with a claim of a specific machine having "no loss of suction" |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 4:38pm JimB wrote:
HOOVER says on the product claim: ASTM test results say: (what the results of tests are). Then HOOVER says ASTM is the industry recognized standard testing entity. HOOVER always provides the ASTM test number, test results, and ASTM certification. In matched tests with other vacuums, it provides the vacuum brands: i.e dyson. From the HOOVER FUSION product claim: "Suction stays constant for up to 10 ounces of dirt, as tested by an independent laboratory using ASTM F558 test method and a dirt composition of 70% mineral dust, 20% cellulose dust and 10% fibrous material." And HOOVER follows the test results with the ASTM industry certification: The only testing entity recognized by the vacuum industry. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 5:36pm JimB wrote:
Check your favorite brand's graphic depiction for no loss of suction. It graphically matches 4 unnamed vacuum brands to dyson. No dust amounts are depicted, no air watts are mentioned. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/21/06 at 7:23pm Wow, holy fact-changer Batman. Is the same guy who argued for pages on this forum that the Hoover's Fusion claim did not say "up to 10 oz" now cowering behind the fact that it does? You have to admit up to 10 oz is a prettly weak claim in real world conditions. Especially when as claimed here because of demand they are being raced into the store spewing an unacceptable amount of those 10 oz back into the air. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/21/06 at 7:27pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So which lab or company provided the test results for the Hoover's "no loss of suction" claim? How about their "picks up more dirt" claim? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Karl on 02/21/06 at 8:11pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
http://www.dyson.com/nav/inpageframe.asp?id=TECH/DYSONCYCLONE/PERF/PERF&sinavtype=menu |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:03pm Karl: The dyson product literature for the dyson uprights DC07 and DC14 at BEST BUY does not have the graph grid marked for air watts and dirt. The unnamed vacuums are the same in the both product literature for the BEST BUY and the dyson web page. Even if specifically asked, dyson does not provide the vacuum brand names. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:11pm justasking2 wrote:
HOOVER provides the disclosure for the tests as proof of the claim on the HOOVER FUSION in two places: On the product with a label and on the box. HOOVER does the same with its other vacuum products when it makes a claim of better rug cleaning performance including specifying the brand names in matched tests. HOOVER provides a label on the product and the test information as proof of the claim on the box. Contrast this with your favorite brand which does not disclose the proof of its claim even when specifically asked. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:22pm justasking2 wrote:
I've addressed the first already. You can go back and read it. Here's the second request for the HOOVER claim and proof: "FACT: Patented Windtunnel Technology Picks-Up More Dirt Than Any Other Upright... Period! As per American Society for Testing & Materials-Test F608,the only recognized industry standard." This appears on the product with a label and the product box. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/21/06 at 9:29pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
FACT: We all should know by now that the ASTM doesn't perform the tests. They provide the methodology for the tests. So the big question still remains "who" provides and conducts the tests that states Hoover cleans 50%+ better than a Dyson? If it's inhouse proprietary information slanted in their favor, it's useless to reference it. I still haven't read an acceptable answer. Who does the testing? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 02/21/06 at 9:31pm justasking2 wrote:
What evidence is there that customers are racing Fusions back to the stores? If I remember correctly, CR reported that 2 of the Fusions sampled had leakage problems. We don't really know if its a widespread problem or just a bad batch. I would expect Hoover to fix the problem quickly to limit losses. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:33pm Bruce: THis is a rerun of previous discussions. ASTM is the industry standard and sanctions labs to perform tests in accordance with its vacuum tests that are recognized as the only vacuum industry standard. Your favorite brand does not use the ASTM tests and standards. HOOVER does and quotes them on its products. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/21/06 at 9:34pm justasking2 wrote:
Yes I understand you supplied a non-answer. Who provided and certified the test results? Your answer seems to try to infer that the ASTM tested the machine and certified the results and we know that is not an honest answer. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:37pm RAT wrote:
RAT: By all personal and professional indications, the HOOVER FUSION is one of the best selling if not the best selling vacuum on the Wal-Mart shelves. It has been since its launch. It is a perfect match for Wal-Mart vacuum buyers. In many stores, they can't keep them in stock because they sell quickly. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/21/06 at 9:38pm RAT wrote:
Rat, Sorry for any confusion I was speaking to the claim posted that the poor seals and failed emmisions tests were a result of the racing fast production due to the high demand. As for CR's explanation 2 vacuums with leakage problems is about as much of a real world sample as their 10 strokes with a brand new machine test in the first place. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/21/06 at 9:40pm justasking2 wrote:
The HOOVER proof of the claim does not say that ASTM performed the tests. It clearly says the tests are performed in accordance with the ASTM test which is the only industry recognized standard. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/21/06 at 9:48pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
As long as you try to infer the ASTM is somehow endorsing Hoover some will feel it important that other visitors here are not mislead. The fact is only one of the vacuums in the ASTM debate here provides a test number with results and quotes the results backed by a sourced ASTM sanctioned lab. As for it being the industry standard you have only provided Hoovers word that it is. The top spot in Marketshare seem to have not been grabbed by following but by leading. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/21/06 at 9:55pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
We know this Carmine. WHO does the test? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/21/06 at 10:19pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
What does this have to do with performance or quality? Wal-Mart is associated with price, not quality. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 3:12am justasking2 wrote:
A reader "infers" not a writer. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 3:15am Bruce wrote:
As the recognized vacuum industry standard, the ASTM imputes credence, integrity and authority to the people relying on its results. The ASTM is a standard of assurance for vacuum buyers and vacuum makers. This is true for any industry standard just like CRI for carpets. By its own merits the standard maker speaks with authority for itself. Not because the ASTM says so, but because the vacuum makers in the industry do. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 3:20am HARDSELL wrote:
The HOOVER FUSION's sales success at Wal-Mart (its exclusive venue) knocked out the two higher priced bagless models that are your favorite ($349 and $399) in less than one year. Permanently. Dyson could not renegotiate a presence at Wal-Mart, as we were told it would do. A $128 HOOVER (non HEPA rated) upright vacuum did that to TWO more expensive dyson models at all the Wal-Mart stores nationwide. That is exceptional. Quality, performance and price have to figure into the consumer mix for the HOOVER FUSION's sales success at all the Wal-Mart stores nationwide. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 9:23am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Only if your in the practice of only telling the part of the story that works for your argument. Dictionaries including Webster's will define "infers" usage as to suggest, hint or imply as perfectably acceptable with I believe it first documented usage in this context in the writings of Sir Thomas More. Of course I would have to defer to you on what Hoovers internal tests might show the definition of this word is for an industry standard. ;) Either way I don't think it needs to be implied or infered but can be stated outright that you are using a significant double standard in applying credibility to Hoover's and Dyson's stated tests while basically using the defense of "because Hoover and I say so". |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 10:55am "Dictionaries including Webster's will define "infers" usage as to suggest, hint or imply.... " Webster's New World Third College edtition says this is regarded as loose usage. ;) I agree. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 02/22/06 at 11:05am The details of the Hoover test are very specific: 1. They used an independent lab. 2. The ASTM test describes in excruciating detail exactly what was done. With the information that Hoover provided, any of their competitors has more than enough information to have their own tests conducted. I'd be surprised if Dyson and Oreck haven't verified the tests in their in house labs. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 11:33am ASTM testing is for the American market even though they are International. Have you looked at any part of the test Dyson used. EN60312 is used to qualify for European Community Eco Label ( Ecological Label). Dust removal- after 5 strokes on a Wilton carpet, the dust removal must be at least 70%. I don't have a Wilton carpet . I am an American and the tests that are done according to ASTM standards are for American homes. CRI tests on all different kinds of rugs and carpet. Good Housekeeping Seals of approval are not bought like some people have said but given if the product is proven a smart buy and they stand behind it with a money back warranty or replacement. The point here is everyone wants everyone else to prove their point with facts. Dyson won't comment about their competitors except in Japan. Look at the site. In the U.S. they won't say. I have in my possession a tape from Aerus that shows their tests with their Competition and Guardian on HEPA filtration. They do not name them but you know who they are when you see them. And the test was done by an independent Lab. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/22/06 at 11:52am JimB wrote:
You're exactly right Jim! As you can see, there's never a direct answer provided to either yours, mine or others questions wrt "who" does the testing. All we get is the same ASTM mumbo jumbo. Proprietary is another good one. LOL |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 1:02pm RAT wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree that is appropriate information to give an consumer for the claim made. As this discusion has centered on the Fusion here is the claim from their website: " - Cyclonic technology offers powerful cleaning with no loss of suction* " With the notation of: "*Suction stays constant for up to 10 ounces of dirt, as tested by an independent laboratory using ASTMF558 test method and a dirt composition comprised of 70% mineral dust, 20% cellulose dust and 10% fibrous material. " So in this test unlike the other Hoover ASTM claim it does say "an independent lab", but why not disclose if it is an ASTM listed lab and whom did the test. However in this claim that is probably a non issue after you actually look at the test they use. ASTM F558's first line 1.1 is: "1.1 This test method covers procedures for determining air performance characteristics of household upright, canister, and combination-type vacuum cleaners having provisions for attaching a hose. This test method does not apply to the carpet-cleaning mode of operation" So it does not apply to carpet-cleaning mode and they are only making the claim for "up to" 10 oz of dirt. If I ran the lab I would not want my name attached to that piece of marketing. Real world, definitive and industry standard? Is that serious? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 1:07pm "Suction" in the industry does not apply to the upright carpet cleaning mode. It applies to suction for tool use. When suction is meant to apply to the upright cleaning carpet mode the industry uses the vernacular "carpet nozzle suction." Anthing else I can clarify for you Jimbo? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/22/06 at 1:58pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So then you agree with Jim's statement the ASTM F558 test method refers to "suction" for above floor cleaning? What about "carpet nozzle suction" cleaning performance? A new term I don't think I've ever seen you refer to on this forum. Am I right? As another poster previously pointed out, it all boils down to smoke and mirrors. LOL |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 1:58pm Imagine that, the mysterious unwritten unverifiable "industry standard" defense with a little bit of "trying to skew the definition of a word" thrown in, who would of "thunk it". Let's try in laymen terms for consumers. The claim you are touting is for: a brand new never used before machine, suction from the attachment hose in a labratory setting and certainly not if you are trying to actually clean a carpet, only covering the life of the machine for "up to" 10 oz of dirt (or a partially full soda can of dirt). Furthermore even at this level of claim, CR still rates it at "not recommended" because of an unnacceptable amount of this "up to" 10 oz of dirt was only taken into the machine to be sent out into the rooms air. You can actually help me with why a company would want to talk to its consumers using this as an example or your unwritten industry standard. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/22/06 at 2:21pm But remember Jim, the Fusion removes 13% more dirt than a Dyson according to the ASTM F608 methodology. Keep in mind this is a "laboratory" test that is suppose to "represent real world conditions" using fake dirt. Gee, I wonder where that extra 13% of debris ends up. According to CR it certainly ain't in the dirt receptacle. LOL |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 02/22/06 at 2:38pm JimB wrote:
Jim B, I believe the 10oz originated with Dyson's original claim. Hoover used the same 10oz to standardize to the Dyson test. Surely you are familiar with that test and the accompanying chart. All other vacuums were supposed to completely lose suction after inhaling only 10oz of dirt. Hoover used the same 10oz to disprove Dyson's statement. I'm glad to hear that you are quoting from Consumer Reports. I'm kind of surprised that you would be allowed to acknowledge Consumer Reports. Now Dyson is resorting to the dust mite campaign (see Dyson web page) used in the past by sleazy door-to-door brands. First of all, I don't see the point in demonizing dust mites. They provide a very important function in devouring dead skin cells. Where is the proof that using a Dyson will have any effect at all on dust mite population in the home? This ad is more misleading than anything David Oreck has ever done. With a bagless vacuum like the Dyson, just how many dust mites are released every time the bin is emptied? By the way, the term "industry standard" is appropriate for describing ASTM tests. That is the whole point of having a standard. These standards are not static either. Methodologies are improved as technology advances. CR was right to warn consumers about potential problems with the Hoover Fusion; however, it is not clear whether the problem is widespread. It very well may be, or it could just be a problem with a batch of products. I would recommend that Walmart consumers purchase bagged vacuums to avoid the leakage problems associated with bagless vacuums. Bagless vacuums are just plain filthy to empty. If I had to own a bagless vacuum, it would be the Rainbow, because at least the dirt would be dissolved in water and relatively easy to empty. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 2:53pm Bruce wrote:
The Bruce Standard: If Bruce never heard of the industry vernacular, it must be a new term. ;D I think you will probably get several posters to accept the Bruce Standard. ;D You can add it to the new definition for "infer." "To imply." ;D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 3:06pm RAT wrote:
The Dyson claim is that others loose suction after as little as 10 oz. The Hoover claim is that the Hoover Fusion will maintain constant suction for "up to" 10 oz. Clever marketing and careful wording but notice how carefully Hoover worded it to not to in actuality dispute the Dyson claim. Perhaps we can call it the "Carmine" standard. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 3:07pm If I remember correctly it was the Hoover Windtunnel Bagless that cleaned 54% more dirt than Dyson. They did not claim to lose suction. They claimed to clean better. Test F608 is used for carpet cleaning effectiveness. F558 is used on the machines with hsoes. The test 60312 has the test dirt premeasured and picked up. The 10 oz. was a Dyson ad stating no loss of suction after 10 Oz. Ads are changing from Dyson probably from misleading advertising that is confusing the public just like Hoover's Cleaning Effectiveness per Amp. The ad with the dust mite is quite misleading. If you are allergic to Dust Mites two machines you don't want are Bagless and Water Bowl vacuum cleaners. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 3:11pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I believe the first common written use of this "new" definition for "infer" was by Thomas More more than a few centuries ago. Now that seems like a solid standard. ;D |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 3:11pm I finally realized the huge opposition to the vacuum industry's accepted test standards by some mis- informed posters here. They don't understand correct English usage. :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 3:14pm JimB wrote:
Did he have any More new definitions for English words? BTW, his name is Thomas Moore. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/22/06 at 3:22pm tiger21 wrote:
I disagree on water bowl or Rainbow vacuums having a problem containing dust mites. Please explain how they are released back into the breathing air while emptying. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 3:25pm To be correct , wasn't that Sir Thomas Moore, ArchBishop of Canterberry? I still not up that well on English history since I am an American. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 3:33pm Bruce, I have an article that states do not used water bowled vacuums if you have an allergy to dust mites. " An allergy- triggering enzyme from dust mites dissolves in the water and spreads into the air." Journal American 9/ 26/ 1995 |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/22/06 at 3:35pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So your touted industry standard test gets called out specifically as deceptive and useless in its usage as it is applied for the hoover fusion and instead standing by it defending its specifics you look for words not used in there most common definition and spelling typo's from other posters? Is that an Ivy league debate technique because it seems similar to one my 10 year old might try. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 02/22/06 at 3:58pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
As I suspected, you once again have avoided a direct question. After over 3300 posts this is the first time you've ever used this term. Actually this would be the first time "anyone" has used the phrase on this forum. We can conclude, and the fact remains, the ASTM F558 test method (referred to by Hoover) is strictly and specifically related to hose performance, not carpet nozzle performance. Deceivingly, Hoover uses it to infer BOTH. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/06 at 5:19pm RAT wrote:
HELLO RAT: Sad that the best marketing campaign the new dyson ad agency can come up with is dust mites. Very original. Dyson's old ad agency took the hit for the bumbling advertising claims by dyson. Somebody had to, the dyson execs won't admit errors. They don't even accept industry recognized standards. They have their own! So along comes a new ad agency and the best they offer dyson customers are dust mites. I think the claim: NEVER LOSES SUCTION is correct. For the dust mites not the dysons. :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/22/06 at 7:54pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
So you got toasted by facts and chose to run away from a debate with someone who looks to be knowledable on the tests you always quote, by why fall back to making up stuff . Where can you reference why Dyson switched ad agencies? What claims exactly has Dyson backed off of? So they changed their ad agency, are they really suppose to list every claim they have ever made in past ads in all future ad's? I do like that statement about the "Carmine" Standard . I believe most consumers who read yours and Hoovers claim referencing the ASTM on the Fusion have no idea it does not pertain to carpet cleaning and expires before the first 11 ounces are picked up by the machine. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 8:22pm Just a thought . What is the average person willing to pay for belt and clutch assembly for a Dyson. The going charge out of warranty is $49 for labor, $44 for a clutch assembly with flat belts add tax and you are talking around$90. Dyson while under warranty will pay the warranty station $30 for changing a clutch assembly. The last clutch assembly in an upright was in an Electrolux Upright made in 1976-84. The belts were cog belts and I never replaced a one. Dyson have flat belt that stretch and break. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/22/06 at 9:36pm tiger21 wrote:
For how long? How was the test performed? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 02/22/06 at 10:46pm Hardsell, I was not at the test but I would judge how tests I have seen done that an equal amount of Dirt was put down on the test carpet and when the cleaners were run so long they were checked to see who got the most dirt. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/23/06 at 6:29am tiger21 wrote:
Do you think the test was equivalant to vacuuming a whole house with real dirt and dust? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/23/06 at 6:31am HARDSELL wrote:
Do you think passing the CPA exam is the same as practicing public accounting with Deloitte? You have to pass the exam (a very hard one that lasts 4 days and in addition to ethics, tests auditing, business law, accounting theory and accounting practice) to practice as a CPA but they are not the equivalent. So what's your point. Do away with the tests because they are too difficult to pass. Is that the HARDSELL standard? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/23/06 at 7:30am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Still confused Carmine? We are not discussing accounting. However, I do not expect logical replies from you. Any test can be made to make the preferred brand look better. You of all people should know this. Carmine, all of those CPA tests are examples of real world application. Vacuum testing should serve the same purpose. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/23/06 at 7:57am HARDSELL wrote:
When did you "sit for" the CPA exam? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 02/23/06 at 6:28pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Are you denying the CPA exam is based on real world situations or avoiding answering the specific questions on the the real world signicance of the two hoover quoted vacuum tests. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/23/06 at 8:46pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
No need to Carmine. Common sense usually prevails over an educated idiot. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/23/06 at 8:52pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
You should take lessons from your self and speak only when spoken to. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/24/06 at 3:14am justasking2 wrote:
When did you sit for the CPA exam? Would you and your buds say taking a 20 question written driver's test and a 15 minute road test equivalent to real world driving? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/24/06 at 6:50am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
No, the driving test is more like the CRI and ASTM test. Not very thorough. You can make errors and still pass. In fact some insiders in TN issued license for a fee no matter how low you scored. Very much like the vac tests I would say. The test is like a lot of vacuums. Same as it was 50 years ago and not as effective as it could be. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/24/06 at 7:01am HARDSELL wrote:
What's your point? Do away with driving tests and requirements? Don't have them because they are not perfect indicators of the real world driving success? Let's go even further. Accountants, lawyers, doctors, pilots, engineers, architects, clergy, nurses, police, military soldiers, weapons qualifications, mortgage banker licenses and on and on. Do away with all of the certifications because they all have problems. I hope you are not saying that what's you want. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/24/06 at 11:28am I believe the point may be that a a 20 question driving test much like the specific tests you have quoted for the CRI and ASTM can in no way predict the quality of how the driver will actually drive in real world conditions. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/24/06 at 2:02pm JimB wrote:
Not a valid point for dismissing the test. Tests for products/services assure minimal standards are met not maximum. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 02/24/06 at 2:20pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I am not being dismissive of that 20 question driving test, just of any claims that it accurately represents how that driver will perform in the longterm real world conditions. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 02/24/06 at 7:10pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
It is more like what is your point Carmine. You ask 20 questions that are not relevent to the vacuum tests. The tests that you are referring to are only to see what has been learned by an individual. To date I do not know of a single vacuum that has been educated. The point is that one can pass the test and still not be proficient . There are drs. and lawyers that I would never hire. A pilot trained to fly in WW2 would be lost if trying to fly a jumbo jet. Technology in the jet vs. the WW2 fighter is akin to your beloved never improved vacs vs the Dyson. The tests of yesterday are out dated. Again, you are talking about training people and not testing performance of a machine. I could give you a long list of tests that are a joke among people who know the product lines. You likely could not relate to them as they ar not vacuum related. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/25/06 at 3:04am JimB wrote:
I've never read a claim by anyone in on this Forum and/or in a position of authority that states passing a written and road test makes one a proficient driver. Have you? The same is true for all certification tests. Passing the CPA (certified public accounting) exam didn't make me proficient in public accounting. Passing the test allowed me TO PRACTICE public accounting. In fact most test giving bodies/authorities qualify the test results by saying: "Just because you pass, doesn't mean you are thoroughly proficient. It means you meet the standards to become proficient which comes with time, experience and effort." Tests and standards set the minimal requirements for the product, service, or certification. It's the starting point for the bar. You work your way up. And just because you pass (if you pass) doesn't mean you don't have to become better. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/25/06 at 4:26am HARDSELL wrote:
I suspect your inability to grasp the concept of testing, certification and standards stems from some forces beyond the limitations of your thought processes and language barriers.....But I may be wrong. Carmine D. |
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Title: Dust mites Post by M00seUK on 02/27/06 at 1:33pm Further to the debate within this thread regarding the merits of using dust mites in an ad campaign. While searching just now I came across a person's blog entry on buying their Dyson vac, almost a year ago :- http://jenniferoconnell.blogspot.com/2005_05_22_jenniferoconnell_archive.html |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 02/27/06 at 9:55pm What does this blog prove? It does not matter which vacuum cleaner you use, not one is going to remove all of the dust mites and its excrements. Dyson will not even say his removes all. It is a constant battle for some who have allergic reactions to the mites and their activities. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by guess_who on 02/28/06 at 7:43pm Hi, Before we get too far afield, I have attached links regarding dust mites. It should prove helpful all around. Unfortunately, for all of us vacuum believers, the use of vacuum cleaners apparently is regarded as one of the lesser solutions to the problem. Vacuums can of course be an important part of home sanitation but dust mites, roaches and other pests minute in kind that can be so harmful by way of their effect on pulmonary problemsrequire stronger tactics if they're to be brought under control. http://open-site.org/Health/Conditions_and_Diseases/Allergies/Dust_Mites/ http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/dustmites.php http://www.epestsupply.com/dust_mites.htm http://www.medeserv.com.au/ascia/aer/infobulletins/Aeroallergen_Avoidance.htm Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 03/08/06 at 11:07am Do you know what this month is? Well it's the one year anniversary launch of the DC15 The Ball. Of course no word if it's a HIT or MISS with the world wide release of this very interesting vacuum cleaner. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by MrRogers on 03/08/06 at 12:18pm Weren't they supposed to be discontinued by now (lol) :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/08/06 at 12:44pm MrRogers wrote:
Here it is March already. Hmmmmm, what happened to that prediction that the Dyson would be gone by the first of this year. Wishful thinking? NOT |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/08/06 at 1:04pm How soon the dyson dead forget! Let's recap before you start celebrating: October 2005, 6 months of the DC15 launch, dyson lowered the price in the USA by $100, just as I predicted on the Forum. Feb 2005, DC11 dead and gone within 9 months of launch, just as I predicted in October 2004. DC07 All Carpets dead and gone from Wal-Mart in less than a year, just as I predicted. KO'ed by HOOVER FUSION, as I predicted. Dyson gone from Wal-Mart for good PERIOD! The DC15 Total Clean dead and almost gone from Sam's Club just as I predicted in Dec 2005. The DC15 not launced in the Canadian market. And to add insult to injury, Kenneth J. has a pending patent infringement case against dyson for stealing his patent on the ball facilitator for the DC15. AND the DC15 makes no claim written or otherwise the trade mark dyson phrase: NEVER LOSES SUCTION, just as I predicted. Consumer Reports called the DC15 a vacuum with mediocre suction right out of the box! You dyson dead are gluttons for punishment. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/08/06 at 1:34pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Nit pick to your hearts content! The Dyson is here to stay. What will CR say about the Hoover Z "right out of the box"? I can't wait to see how biased they'll be in their review. If CR wants to save face, they will have to tell the truth. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 03/08/06 at 2:07pm In the absence of any comparative sales figures for the product, all we can really go on is personal feelings, alongside any shop floor insights. I personally go by the option that it's done as well as might be expected. Not *incredibility* well - shortly before it's launch, Dyson proposed that the new invention might possibility become a signature feature on all their future uprights. It's certainly some time away from becoming that. Of course it depends on how we gauge success. Commercial success - Return on Investment? Well, it's had a small fortune invested in it, that much is clear. It's concept sounds relatively simple, but to use one over time, you begin to appreciate how involved it has been to mass produce a reliable model of this type. Development costs can be offset with R&D tax breaks at 125% for a company of Dyson's size. Marketing spend has been noticeably high, so in raw terms, profit margin above this would be a key measure. It's high retail price was soon revised, showing that this was indeed too ambitious. Not that there isn't actually a case for the demonstrated added value in said pricing - just that the concept is so different to the rest of the market, that at a certain level, the buyer has to know that it will work for them. That's why a home trial period is such a crucial feature for a product of this type. Indeed, I wouldn't have brought one myself was it not for this. Once established in a home, the acceptance is likely to be high, it has been for me. Owners tell others about this unique product, it and likely even demo it - this is reported to be common with all Dyson products, right back to DC01. If the line stays stocked in on the shelves is dependant in part of the retailer's customer demographic, the margins and if Dyson is contributing towards the amount floorspace / promos their line has. From either's point of view, having just one DC15 facing is all they need for upsell opportunities. The model's common components are interchangeable with DC14 parts; there's very little risk in carrying it. In terms of a mass-market seller, no, I suspect it isn't. It's likely DC07 / DC14 still command the bulk for the sales. But in terms of a practical, well thought out, publicity generating, super premium addition to the Dyson range - it's succeeded in my view. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/08/06 at 3:17pm Bruce wrote:
When you can't face and/or argue the facts about your favorite brand, digress and get off the thread topic. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/08/06 at 5:34pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Let's be fair if you are going to be the thread police. His was a direct reply to a post where you name called the "dyson dead" by attacking the dc11 and dc07 carpets in response to the 1st anniversary of the DC15 on the "DC 15" thread. Anyhow back to the DC 15's impact. Serious industry members have to take note that before the dc15 the $499 dc07 animal was the top dyson seller and after the dc15 launch the new upper mid pricepoint of the $549 dc14 animal has been the top dyson seller. Simply stated if you are the top few pricepoints in many of your retailers creating a differentiated new high price point would not be a bad strategy. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/08/06 at 5:55pm JimB wrote:
JimBO: This thread is about dyson vacuums and retailers which sell them. I recapped facts and circumstances concerning dyson products and retailers. Many of which I accurately predicted. Facts not opinions. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/09/06 at 2:51am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
We must clear one thing up Carmine. The Dyson is NOT my favorite brand. I hope you understand this in future posts. I've gone over all your [nit picking] details you continuously harp over. It's a waste of my time to continuously explain to someone that is either mentally challenged or blindfolded from the true facts. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/09/06 at 3:23am Bruce wrote:
Bruce: A little testy? Didn't you spend $600 for a DC15 from SEARS, use it for a few weeks, and gift it to a family member as a business deduction? Do you do this for all vacuums you don't like or just dysons? :D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/09/06 at 3:28am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I do this with all vacuums I don't NEED. Big difference. You should already know all my favorites :D |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/09/06 at 3:49am Bruce wrote:
Time wasted, effort wasted, money spent: $600. To each his own. 10-12 HOOVER TEMPO's for $50 each vice a DC15 for $500-$600 any day and every day. 10-12 HOOVER TEMPO's last 30-60 years maintenance free except bag costs vice one DC15 lasting 3-5 years. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/09/06 at 6:51am JimB wrote:
What period of time are you talking about and which (many is the word you used?) retailers are you talking about? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/09/06 at 10:30am I quoted two time periods pre dc15 dyson us sales and post dc15 dyson us sales. I am not sure what you are looking for on the "which" retailers question it was a general price/marketing strategy statement refering to the concept of creating a new differentiated high price point for the consumer to see your former high pricepoint now as midrange. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by MrRogers on 03/09/06 at 4:59pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Now that is just flat out slanderous filth... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/09/06 at 5:11pm It may be a "planned strategy" but it is too soon to tell it's successful among retailers. Especially with competitive models using the same technology for much less and pervading the same retailers as dyson. You need hard data with dyson sales numbers before and after the competition by retailer. Without this you have a plan not a success story. As said before by others smarter than me, the less expensive bagless competition will force dyson either to lower its prices to compete or exit the market for other markets. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 03/09/06 at 5:13pm MrRogers wrote:
What exactly is slanderous filth? Many consumers make the decision to buy a $50 vacuum from Walmart instead of a $500 vacuum. Inexpensive vacuums aren't as cool, may require more belt changes, have shorter cords, tend to be noisy, and don't have nearly as many features, but they can still get the carpet clean. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/09/06 at 5:49pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Ok lets follow your example. You rotate those wonderful hoover tempo's for 30 years. 2 bags a month at 8.99 a 3 pack $70/year 4 final filters a year $40/year 2 secondary filters a year $ 4/year $114/year or $3,420 for 30 years plus $500 for the machines and the tempos cost the consumer $3,920 for 30 years. Oh and "may require more belt changes, have shorter cords, tend to be noisy, and don't have nearly as many features" 6 $500 dyson for 30 years $3,000. Could it be less expensive and more desired? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 03/09/06 at 8:48pm JimB wrote:
With the right assumptions you make a $1800 Rainbow seem cheaper than either the Dyson or Hoover. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/11/06 at 10:36am What's happened to the the DC15 Ball? Is it still a-round? Dum...the dum...dum? Let's hear it from dyson first? What's the scoop on the Ball? Is it headed for retirement in the USA market? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 03/11/06 at 11:56am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Yes it's still around and doing well |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/11/06 at 12:13pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
As much as you seethe Dyson, the DC-15 appears to be available at every web site store that sells Dyson's, and all the big box stores in my area carry them including Sears. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 03/11/06 at 12:47pm I went to my local Best Buy and they were all sold out of the DC15 Animal with more coming in soon. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 03/11/06 at 1:03pm My local Sam's Club still has a huge supply of Dyson Balls. Although they just picked up a line of Electrolux(/Eureka) uprights in the $220 range that there getting a lot of interest. Costco.com has both a Bosch and Electrolux(/Eureka) deluxe canisters with power brush for around $360. The Bosch has the smaller power nozzle and the European Eureka/Electrolux has the full size nozzle. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 03/11/06 at 1:04pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
On this point, might it not be that it's part of Dyson's strategy to make a decision on introducing DC15 at a later date? With new product marketing, keeping the message as simple as possible is key. Introducing a brand in a market with 'does bagless better than others, because...' 'and also has this ball thing, which is good because...' would dilute the message.It's also another set of models to mechanise into the stores. They've started with entry-level DC07 and premium DC14 models. Super-premium by way of DC15 can gain additional publicity another day. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/11/06 at 1:29pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Yes, it is still around. You just will not see them in the low end and liquidation stores where you seem to hang out. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/11/06 at 3:43pm Not much longer. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/12/06 at 3:47am M00seUK wrote:
No mights in the USA. This was the strategy with the launch of the DC15 in the USA in April 2005. What happened? The strategy "planned" did not become the strategy "accomplished." Due to lack of interest and sales prices on the DC15 Ball All Floors and Animal dropped $100 in October 2005. As was pointed out by Jim B on another thread, this price drop forced the DC14 Animal into the premium dyson product position in the USA lineup. NOt by dyson choice but by circumstances and events. Jim B put a good spin on this and is worth a read to get the company line. The dyson Ball strategy failed in the USA because the product failed just as it did in the 1960's in the USA when GE tried. Do you think it will work in Canada? I say "No." Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 03/12/06 at 8:27pm Hardsell said you won't find these items in Liquidation or low end stores. Today my wife and I saw 4 boxed DC-15 Balls and 2 DC-14s at alocal Big Lots. They said the DC-15s just came in and they had DC-14s over a month ago. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/12/06 at 10:18pm tiger21 wrote:
What were they selling for? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/13/06 at 9:35am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
To correct some of these erroneous claims. I never claimed to know dysons strategy on the Ball or dyson product positioning strategy. I only gave a possible strategy. Either way the fact is (true for both before and after the Ball price drop) that dc 15 gave the dyson consumer more choice (good for the consumer), raised average vacuum price (good for the industry), and brought the dyson top selling machine from the 07 animal to the 14 animal (good for dyson). I know some here seem to come from the hoover spin and company line of driving average price points down is a true sign of success and companies that drive price points up are somehow failing. I still can not comprehend a vac shop diehard ripping a company bringing more consumers to the higher price point that can open eyes to quality machines while singing the praises of the hoover fusion. It must have become personal at some point because it certainly does not make sense. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/13/06 at 9:45am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Paint me surprised that dyson management shared their internal product line strategies with you. Did you fit this meeting in before or after sitting in on the hoover litigation legal team meatings? ;) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/06 at 1:05pm JimB wrote:
Neither, just astute vacuum industry research and review. I do like the spins that you spin on the Forum about dyson. I anxiously await the explanation of the 20 percent discounts on dyson products in violation of dyson MAP by some retailers with no consequences while holding other retailers to it at the risk of pulling dyson out. You equate high dyson product pricing with high quality and vacuum cleaner stores' desirability. What is the evidence for both these conclusions? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/13/06 at 1:30pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Come on put that Ivy league education to work. Average price points of vacuums going up is a good thing for vacuum cleaner stores. Which consumer do you want coming in the door (no matter what you are selling in the store) someone who has committed in their mind to buy a $70 machine or one that is committed in their mind already on a price range closer to $500? Up to this point you seem to be pointing this consumer to the $120 machine at Walmart, and I can't settle that this is a vac shop supporter positioning seems more like the hoover corporate line. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by dualcyclone on 03/13/06 at 3:59pm The thing that's REALLY CRAZY (as in 'insane') is that anyone believes anything Carmin says. He is NOT a 'consultant' to the 'vacuum industry'. What a hoot. He really has you guys believing his line of B.S. He's nothing more than an old, failed businessman, wasting his last few hours upon this earth typing into this forum, making people believe he is something he is NOT. Dyson has NOT discontinued the DC07. The big box stores have stopped carrying it in favor of the higher priced DC14 and DC15 models. The DC07 currently is the model favored by independent dealers (vac shops) who carry Dyson, as the shops make the SAME profit selling the lower priced DC07 as they would selling the higher priced DC14 models. Together with Dyson's promotional pricing for dealers, the DC07 (Full Kit, All Floors, Animal, etc.) is a very good deal, both for consumers and dealers alike. I can just picture the little veins popping out of Carmin's head as he reads this. The grave is yawning before him and he better watch out, heart attacks are very common for men at his ADVANCED age. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/13/06 at 4:18pm dualcyclone wrote:
I never have believed his premise of being a consultant. A professional consultant woud not continuously bash a product that has proven itself better over a cheap and junky hoover. He even touts the Oreck as deep cleaning better than a Dyson, which is a complete lie. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows better! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/06 at 6:01pm Confronted with the facts and asked to expalin, the dyson clan obfuscates and gets personal by attacking my integrity and professionalism. Whose name calling and character bashing now? You can't win with the facts digress with the insults. The facts are incontravertible: Dyson's failure to take action against several retailers who consistently violate dyson MAP by advertising 20 percent off dyson products. MAP is 10 percent. Yet on the same hand they claim dyson pulled out of a retailer for a 15 percent MAP violation. And the DC15 marketing strategy failed miserably and quickly. Who ever heard of a vacuum maker reducing prices by $100 on its premier hyped model (the greater dyson we were told imitating HOOVER's trademark slogan) five short months into the market? All the diversion and subterfuge you want to use doesn't change the facts. The DC15 Ball is headed into vacuum oblivion. The ball is counting down. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/13/06 at 6:18pm Blah Blah Blah Blah.... same line Carmine. It's getting old. We'll have to see how soon hoover drops the price of their pathetic premier vacuum... if it even remains on the market long enough. They certainly ain't sellin' cause you can now find them at every turn and corner including Ebay! Hoover is apparently becoming desperate to make sales on this insult of a vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/06 at 7:43pm dualcyclone wrote:
Dual: On several occasions on this Forum Matt mmc agreed with me when I rated the DC14 All Floors a better product for the money than the DC07 All Floors if the prices are $439 and $399 respectively. Not once but twice we made this point with you when you praised the DC07. You are imputing your dyson product values to the rest of the vacuum cleaner stores in the USA and making a grossly inaccurate generalization. It's your opinion and certainly not indicative of all other vacuum store owners and operators but you. You can't and don't speak for them on any matters including this one. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/06 at 7:49pm Bruce wrote:
I guess what I hear from you is that since dyson dropped the prices on its two DC15 Ball models by $100 after only 5 months then HOOVER will do the same. Pure conjecture on your part. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/06 at 8:13pm The price drop of $100 was too much too soon. The action umpugned the integrity of product forever. It sent a clear and loud message that the DC15 vacuum was overpriced and not worth the money. The perception right or wrong spills over to other dyson vacuum products in the minds of US consumers. As we know in the vacuum industry perception ofettimes is reality. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 03/13/06 at 9:58pm Dual, There's no reason to insult Carmine, just because his opinion of Dyson's is different from yours. Not everyone is as enthralled with bagless as you are. In the only head to head tests for which results are commonly available, a leading consumer magazine did find in controlled tests that an Oreck with an empty bag will remove slightly more dirt from a test rug than a Dyson. While the Oreck's performance will degrade as the bag fills, at least initially it has better carpet cleaning performance. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/13/06 at 11:18pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
How does the great and all powerful OZ know this as fact? "All" other vacuum stores is quite a gulp to swallow. Do you routinely visit "all" the independent vac shops throughout the USA? Or is this another one of your "because I say so.. it's fact" assumptions? Remember the first three letters in the word assumption and what it stands for. Pure speculation and more like plain old BS again. Carmine, your reputation is seriously faultering with statements like that. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/14/06 at 3:28am Bruce wrote:
The vacuum professionals, like those on the Forum, are not bagless vacuum fans and are not dyson sellers. PERIOD. Matt mmc made the comments about the DC14 vice the DC07 several times on the Forum to Dual agreeing with me. Ask Matt the reason he considers the DC14 a better product for the money and if so the one vacuum stores should carry and sell. Dual gave you his reason for pushing the DC07: The profit is the same as the DC14 and the competition is less. Based on his own statements, he doesn't sell dysons any longer, he fixes them. The DC07 is the oldest and least desirable dyson model for the money and the reason most retailers don't carry it new any longer. If Dual carried the DC14 and sold it at a price comparable to the retailers' selling discounts (20 percent off MAP) he may have more dyson sales success. That was Matt mmc's message to him but Dual is so conflicted with anger for other vacuum profesionals who disagree with him that he can't figure it out. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 03/14/06 at 5:07am HARDSELL wrote:
What is so bad about these stores? Did you not see my message in reply to bruce in this thread- http://www.whatsthebest-vacuum.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=wtb-vacuum;action=display;num=1139125260;start=172 I hear all of these comments about HOOVER vacuums being dumped at Big Lots. Now refurbished Dysons are there. As you have read earlier, someone else saw them there also. I have not seen refurbished DC15's, but we know in time. Refurbished Dysons are showing up everywhere you turn. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Mike_W. on 03/14/06 at 5:15am BTW, keep the discussion off people's character. You guys are making me dizzy going back and forth. Mike W.(Moderator) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/14/06 at 7:07am Mike_W. wrote:
THese stores and their vacuum sales keep many vacuum cleaner stores in business with parts, repairs and trades. The more the merrier. Returned dysons that are repacks and refurbs have been a staple of the internet dyson sales since June 2002 when dysons were launched in the USA. Great for business too: repairs, parts, and trades. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/14/06 at 11:44am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Large generalization, but great for those who are ahead of the curve and in on these customers. In other words in the case not true. PERIOD. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/14/06 at 12:56pm JimB wrote:
Look at the facts. Vacuum makers are not competing with bagless vacuums in the same range as dyson. They are much cheaper. Dirt Devil, VAX, EUREKA, etc. HOOVER has made the first attempt with the Z. Instead of ridiculing the HOOVER Z vacuum, I would think the dyson clan would be singing its praises. It actually is the first bagless model in the same price range as dyson. This gives credence to the dyson line. Having said that, I would also say as a crossover vacuum, upright and canister, it makes sense for the bagless feature on the HOOVER Z. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 03/14/06 at 6:10pm For those who didn't see the new Dyson commercial here it is http://www.dyson.com/media/streaming.asp?menu=DYSON/ADS&video=Reversal%20of%20fortune%20-%20TV%20Ad&id=17 |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/14/06 at 9:03pm RAT wrote:
This is the idiotic kind of logic that causes others to insult Carmine and anyone else who preaches it. All of the quoted tests in this forum are controlled and useless. The Oreck that I demoed would not out clean the Dyson under any circumstance. Of course I have no personal gain from being honest since I do not advertise for Oreck as the mags do. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/14/06 at 9:18pm Mike_W. wrote:
There is nothing wrong with these stores nor most products that they sell. I am glad that they are there to provide vacuums and other products for those who can not pay a premium price. I believe that all of the slurs are the result of a single moron who is nothing more than a forum troll. Without him I doubt that you would have any slanerous posts against persons, products or stores. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/14/06 at 9:25pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Using your logic that Dyson out classes all others it seems that you would also sing praises to Dyson. Why would we sing praises to the Z which is no competition regardless of price. The Z must stand for "ZONKED". |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/14/06 at 9:56pm HARDSELL wrote:
Notice the letter Z is the last letter in the alphabet. With the hoover z, it stands for coming in last for performance. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 03/14/06 at 10:51pm Mike_W. wrote:
I have two Big Lots in my vicinity. I check these stores out around once a month for any unusual products such as vacuums. To date I have never seen a single hoover or Dyson for sale in either of these stores. It would be a great place to sell repacks for the consumers on a limited budget. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/06 at 3:48am I thought this thread was about the Ball and the "Zen" was another thread. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/06 at 7:00am HARDSELL wrote:
Did you share your test procedures with Consumer Reports? Oreck always manages to do as well if not better then dyson in rug performance especially by independent labs. As others pointed out more cogently than me, the Oreck's lightweigt and quick and easy use makes it amenable to daily vacuuming. No bin to dump and 8 pounds vice 18 of vacuum to move around. Plus Oreck gives the user an industry standard brush roll that cleans and grooms carpetting well. AND a headlamp. Most women of any age would pull out the Oreck upright vice the dyson Ball anytime for carpet use. And be just as pleased if not more so with the results. That's one of the reasons Orecks have been in the industry for over 40 years. Customer satisfaction. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/15/06 at 7:47am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Can you name one independent labratory that I can reference this on? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/15/06 at 7:47am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
And many women are happy living with idiots because they have grown accustomed to them. My wife prefers the best. She has me and the Dyson |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/06 at 8:06am HARDSELL wrote:
Which is the best: you or the dyson? ;D Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by RAT on 03/15/06 at 9:48am HARDSELL wrote:
Hardsell, No one said that the Dyson isn't a better vacuum than the Oreck for you. Maybe if you read what I said a little slower, you'll understand it. You have already admitted that you don't think there's any way possible for a homeowner to run a fair test to assess carpet cleaning performance. You seem to take a faith based approach to comparing performance. As I've said before, most consumers are more concerned with ease of use than they are carpet cleaning performance. The leading consumer magazine does not take advertisements. In head to head repeatable tests in a state of the art laboratory, the Orecks (XL21-700 and XL Deluxe models), likely with a brand new bags, removed more dirt from test rugs than Dyson. The performance of the Oreck will degrade as the bag fills, so at some point the Dyson's performance will be better than that of the Oreck. With an empty bag, fan first vacuums like the Oreck, Sanitaire, Royals and Kirby are extremely good cleaners. From an energy point of view, they are also very efficient. If I had to choose between owning an Oreck or a Dyson, I would take the Dyson because of ease of use and versatility issues. But that does not change the fact that initially the Oreck cleans carpeting better. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/06 at 1:02pm JimB wrote:
I can but I believe you owe the Forum some answers first: As a dyson insider why did dyson pull out of Wal-Mart (as you claim) for the one time roll back prices of 10-15 percent from MAP during the Holiday Season but overlooks the 20 percent discounts on DC07, DC14, and DC15 consistently by several retailers? Is there a double standard? Is there any standard? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by DC15 on 03/15/06 at 3:28pm Stop with this pulling out in Wal Mart crap when it's available for sale on there website. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/15/06 at 6:19pm JimB amd Matt mmc (both self-proclaimed dyson insiders) made the claim on this Forum that dyson pulled out of Wal-Mart because of the roll back prices on the DC07 All Floors for $349 during the Holiday season. NOt once, not twice, not three times but more. And now other dyson diehards are spouting the same as fact. WRONG. If you want to use the "C" word as a descriptor for a falsehood use it for their claim. This Forum knows for a FACT (confirmed by Matt mmc) that at least two nationally known big box retailers ROUTINELY advertise and sell the DC07, DC14, and DC15 for 20 percent off MAP WITH AND WITHOUT the discount coupons. Why? As a dyson seller, if a customer tells you he/she can get the same model dyson as your DC15 for 20 percent off the price you quote, what would you do? Match it, better it, or lose the sale? If you say "lose the sale" then I'll use the "C" word to describe the genuineness of your answer. Matt mmc and Jim B owe the Forum an explanation of the double dyson standard. They are both conspicuously silent. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/15/06 at 7:01pm [quote author=RAT link=board=wtb-vacuum;num=1112876564;start=600#610 date=03/15/06 at 09:48:35] Hardsell, No one said that the Dyson isn't a better vacuum than the Oreck for you. Maybe if you read what I said a little slower, you'll understand it. You have already admitted that you don't think there's any way possible for a homeowner to run a fair test to assess carpet cleaning performance. You seem to take a faith based approach to comparing performance. As I've said before, most consumers are more concerned with ease of use than they are carpet cleaning performance. The leading consumer magazine does not take advertisements. In head to head repeatable tests in a state of the art laboratory, the Orecks (XL21-700 and XL Deluxe models), likely with a brand new bags, removed more dirt from test rugs than Dyson. The performance of the Oreck will degrade as the bag fills, so at some point the Dyson's performance will be better than that of the Oreck. With an empty bag, fan first vacuums like the Oreck, Sanitaire, Royals and Kirby are extremely good cleaners. From an energy point of view, they are also very efficient. If I had to choose between owning an Oreck or a Dyson, I would take the Dyson because of ease of use and versatility issues. But that does not change the fact that initially the Oreck cleans carpeting better. [/quote The problem is that you are becoming like someone else. Tell only enough to make it sound as if Dyson is at the bottom of the performance list. I know the whole story, however there are others who believe that Oreck is best simply because it is light and that David has convinced them that is is the greatest vacuum ever made. Jim Baker went to jail for lying. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/06 at 3:23am How does dyson's reliability and repair history fare in relation to Oreck and other vacuums comparably priced ($400-$700)? As good as, better, worse, or much worse? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/06 at 3:31am JimB amd Matt mmc (both self-proclaimed dyson insiders) made the claim on this Forum that dyson pulled out of Wal-Mart because of the roll back prices on the DC07 All Floors for $349 during the Holiday season. NOt once, not twice, not three times but more. And now other dyson diehards are spouting the same as fact. WRONG. If you want to use the "C" word as a descriptor for a falsehood use it for their claim. This Forum knows for a FACT (confirmed by Matt mmc) that at least two nationally known big box retailers ROUTINELY advertise and sell the DC07, DC14, and DC15 for 20 percent off MAP WITH AND WITHOUT the discount coupons. Why? As a dyson seller, if a customer tells you he/she can get the same model dyson as your DC15 for 20 percent off the price you quote, what would you do? Match it, better it, or lose the sale? If you say "lose the sale" then I'll use the "C" word to describe the genuineness of your answer. Matt mmc and Jim B owe the Forum an explanation of the double dyson standard. They are both conspicuously silent. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/16/06 at 3:48pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
As usual your facts are a little confused I have not claimed to be a dyson insider but may have 1 or 2 in my rolodex. Wal mart has a massive Distribution system. If they had 8 weeks of in store product when the forward shipments stopped that could easily end up as 8 months internet stock. As for your map pricing question there are exceptions in any such policy and it can only be enforced as it relates to specifics in advertising. I like how dyson works hard to keep prices up but they can only enforce branding issues on how they advertised. Price fixing is illegal. I would not be surprised to see many more creative ways for retailers to compete on these in the future. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/06 at 5:31pm Jim B You have refused to say what your connection is with dyson, despite being asked by several Forumers. Matt mmc is a dyson rep and does not answer. Matt says he is here to set the Forum straight on the dyson facts. You provide dyson spin and non-answers to direct questions. If I were selling the DC15 All Floors for $499, the MSRP for the DC15, and a potential customer says he/she can buy it from two other local big box retailers for $399, I won't think dyson is working hard to keep prices up. What's creative about advertising the dyson DC07, DC14, and DC15 for MSRP and then advertising a 20 percent off coupon on them. Dyson MAP allows advertising 10 percent off MSRP, not 15 percent and surely not 20 percent off MSRP. And these retailers will even sell the dyson products for 20 percent off MSRP without the advertised coupons. That's creative? Dyson can't have it both. You and Matt mmc can't praise dyson by claiming it pulled out of Wal-Mart for going below 10 percent off MSRP (but less than 15 percent) and praise other retailers for creativity for offering 20 percent off MSRP with/without discount coupons. You don't have to be an expert in the vacuum industry to know a dyson spin when you hear it. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 03/16/06 at 8:44pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I leave town for a few days and now everyone wants to know where I am......ah it's good to be missed ;) To the discussion at hand..........map policy is one of the most confusing aspects to this business. I don't claim to be an expert when it comes to legal issues, but I will try my best to explain this. MAP stands for Minimum Advertised Pricing. The important word here is ADVERTISED. Although some retailers have 20% coupons, they have never advertised a DC07 All Floors for less than $399. These coupons are legal.....just don't advertise for less than SRP. This is where Walmart faltered. They advertised for $349. Also remember that Dyson does still sell to Walmart Online and Sams Club........a Dyson may eventually find its way back to Walmart (but it won't be DC07 All Floors) Like all companies, Dyson pays for advertising. Because Dyson pays, they have a right to say what is said in the advertisement, hence the map policy. Dyson does not have the right to tell individual stores what to sell the vacuum at......price fixing is illegal. I hope I answered some questions here!! Oh BTW, I'm going back out of town until Monday, so don't get too snippy if I dont write back right away. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 3:21am I love it. If customers have to do the math to figure out $320 is less than $349, dyson doesn't mind. But if Wal-Mart advertises $349 (which is higher than $320), dyson claims it pulls dyson out. I think someone used the "c" word to describe a situation like this. I'll prefer dyson spin. The bottom line is 20 percent off MSRP is more than 10 percent off. Even worse, 20 percent off a $430 DC14 All Floors is $344, less than the $349 DC07 All Floors at Wal-Mart. I wouldn't say MAP is complicated. I'd say it doesn't work. I said many times on this Forum that dyson would need a police force and cadre of lawyers to enforce its MAP rules and regulations. Was I right? BTW, nice to see you have learned to say Wal-Mart's name correctly. ;) It had a great day on Wall-Street yesterday getting the recommedation from a few big brokerage firms. Maybe Wal-Mart will have dyson back, on Wal-Mart's terms. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 11:58am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
"despite being asked by several Forumers." You crack me up. You are the only one who has asked to my knowledge. You are correct in that I have not given my business name and at this time I do not intend to. This is best for both of us as I feel you have a tendency to stretch the truth a little and go on the attack and if you were to go after my business directly you would be going after my family. I will not put you into the position of having to resist that urge so lets stick to talking about facts and products. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 12:09pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
What are you not understanding? If you are a professional consultant in the industry you have to know a manufacturer can not control what price their product is sold for. That is illegal and is called price fixing. A manufacturer can however have rules for how it's product is advertised and displayed. Advertising an unacceptable pricepoint as walmart did, broke an agreement on minimum ADVERTISED price, and did result in shipments being stopped. Most manufacturers would have caved to the pressures of walmart, dyson however is a little different. If a store were to offer 20% off on the dyson dc 14 that would also break the rule, however a store running a 20% sale storewide or on all vacuums can not by law be limited. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 1:30pm I believe RAT asked you if work directly or indirectly for dyson too (several times). You never answered him either. The point about dyson and MAP is that its futile to say dyson works hard at maintaining prices. If retailers consistently offer 20 percent off MSRP with or without coupons, MAP and enforcement is meaningless. I've said that all along on this Forum. Dyson will go after the independent vacuum cleaner store owners and operators for doing that but let the big box retailers pass. All the dyson DC07's that were targeted for Wal-Mart are dumped on BEST BUY. These are being sold for less than $399 in the stores but not advertised. MAP is ridiculous if retailers sell 20 percent below MSRP advertised or not. It's spin, smoke and mirrors. Doesn't mean a thing. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 1:48pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
You are right Rat did ask me also but your reffering to yourself and RAT as "several" is a great example of your stretching out facts to make an argument. I have answered you just have chosen to decide not to like my answer. I have shopped Best Buy and they do not have below map prices on their dyson price tags. You and I do not need to debate that though as any consumer can stop by a Best Buy to see for themselves who is being truthful. You remain confused on map pricing, a local vac shop can sell a dyson for any price they choose inside there store and big box stores can not advertise any lower price than the map the vac shop can (this is not true for your favorite brand). Advantage vac shop... if advertised at the same price little guy's can compete with service, home town pride, trade in ability, and the reality that a consumer shopping on price alone will figure the vac shop is more likely to deal than the local Target. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 2:04pm JimB I didn't say BEST BUY DC07 prices are below MAP, I said the prices are below $399. Read it again. But here's a hypothetical case for you: If I go into BEST BUY and tell a BEST BUY manager I can buy the DC07 All Floors for $320 or the DC14 for $344 from a retailer down the street and show the advertisement, what do you think will happen? Will BEST BUY match the prices, even below MAP? Or lose the sale? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 2:46pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Best Buy's website has the least expensive dc07 at $399.99 same I have seen it at the stores for. I am missing your point other than we both apparently agree Best Buy is following the dyson map pricing rules. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Best buy only matches prices if the exact model is priced in that advertisement in your example. I have not seen any claims that any one is breaking map pricing and is putting out advertisements with dyson models with listed prices under map pricing. Walmart did do this, broke map and we have seen the results. Excellent example to show the value of map pricing though, thanks. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 2:58pm JimB You're not answering a simple straight forward question. THe DC07, DC14, and DC15 All Floors are common dysons to BEST BUY and the retailers with the 20 percent off monthly sales. I'm not asking about web site prices, I'm talking in store prices. If you visit your local BEST BUY stores, you'll find the DC07 All Floors (originally slated for Wal-Mart) that were "dumped" on BEST BUY discounted from the $399 MSRP. I didn't say anything about MAP. Now back to MAP. Knowing that BEST BUY has the same models as the retailers discounting the DC07, 14, and 15 All Floors for 20 percent off MSRP, what will BEST BUY do for a customer in the store? Meet the price (20 percent off MSRP) or lose the sale? Simple question. I asked DC15 the same question. No answers. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 3:23pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
JimB wrote:
I answered your Best Buy discounted price question very directly. You say the dysons are discounted widely in store I say they are not. I am comfortable letting anyone else see the truth in store by themselves, aren't you? As for the dc07's being "dumped" on Best Buy, I am confident that dyson did not ship a bunch of units in that best buy did not order. I am equally confident that Best Buy's Buyer did not wake up one day and say "oh no, poor dyson has to many dc 07's in stock because of wal mart I better order more into my stores to be a good guy and help them out". |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 3:27pm JimB wrote:
Now back to MAP. Knowing that BEST BUY has the same models as the retailers discounting the DC07, 14, and 15 All Floors for 20 percent off MSRP, what will BEST BUY do for a customer in the store? Meet the price (20 percent off MSRP) or lose the sale? Simple question. I asked DC15 the same question. No answers. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 03/17/06 at 4:00pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
JimB wrote:
Once again Carmine I did answer the question. However even though I answered it I still say your premise is make believe. There is no advertisement that a consumer can walk into best buy and say this model number is at this price and I want you to match it. Best Buy's policy would not have them matching another stores generic whole store or whole department on sale coupons. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 03/17/06 at 6:43pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
What did you not understand Carmine? He answered the question, maybe not to your satisfaction since he did not say that you were correct. You have have difficulty in comprehending. Unlike you Jim answers in truth. You lie and tell just enough to make your story fit your argument. What medication do you take for your Alzheimers? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 7:10pm JimB wrote:
In theory your answer is correct. In practice its absolutely erroneous. If a customer walks into BEST BUY with the advertising sections of any retailer with the DC07, 14, and 15 at MSRP: $399, $429, and $499 respectively and the 20 percent off coupon page with the advertisement, BEST BUY will match the price. FACT. You're so focused on the letter of the MAP law you lose sight of the issue: What is the lowest price a consumer can pay to buy a dyson? The answer is easily 20 percent off the advertised MSRP which means below MAP. The point: MAP doesn't mean anything. It's what a customer pays to buy the dyson that matters. Any shopper can buy any dyson below MAP with no problem at all. Dyson MAP is no different than any other vacuum maker's MAP. It's a farce in the USA vacuum industry and always has been. Dyson's MAP is no different. Carmine D. |
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Title: The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/06 at 7:40pm [quote HARDSELL date=03/17/06 at 18:43:56] Unlike you Jim answers in truth. _____________________________________________ Really? Okay. Let's put your statement to the test. Matt mmc says the new dyson canister is in R&D. JimB agreed. Questions for Jim B and Matt mmc: When is the new dyson canister slotted to enter the USA vacuum market? And what can you tell us about it in comparison to the DC11? Say price, performance? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 03/18/06 at 11:32am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Reality check.... I don't care what the industry no one is going to tell you on a forum like this the what and when of a future product launch. An alleged industry professional saying a company or companies supporters are "lying" when they are not giving competition the complete plan of future product launches is just a little bit delusional. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/06 at 12:41pm It doesn't sound like you agree that truth is/can be provided by dyson insiders if asked to do so on certain issues. What's the alternative: Spin? Seems simple enough to answer whether its coming and ETA? They have done it before on Forum, months in advance. Why the secrecy now? What's the surprise? Truth or spin? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 03/18/06 at 12:46pm Carmine, before going off again, why dont you take it at face value and give them the benefit of the dought, that it's in R and D. old-timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 03/18/06 at 1:45pm Let's remember big picture although I am not a canister fan there are many countries where dyson sells canisters well at a high price point. To think they are not developing and planning new canisters that will better fit the largest market in the world than the dc 11 did would be shortsighted wishfull thinking for some. What is the point to asking for specifics of future product launches? I can understand the curiousity as dyson continues to reinvigorate and cause excitement, but what are you exactly trying to prove by demanding price point info, launch date and product specifics? Every current manufacturer talked about on this site has product in R @ D or should we doubt this if they are unwilling to give the exact specifics you want on a open forum? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/06 at 3:16pm old-timer wrote:
Going off? I asked some questions about the canister? What's the secrecy? Why have insiders on the Forum if they can't at least offer some insight. I think they would be anxious to do so. Am I wrong? Have you heard any more about the canister that you want to share? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by justasking2 on 03/18/06 at 4:39pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
OK, Carmine I will play your game. You claim to have inside hoover contacts so what is there next future product to be launched? What is the price point? What is the launch date? Can you offers some specific insights on the future product to share with the competition? You should be anxious to share. What do you and your contacts have to hide? Seems just a bit silly doesn't it... |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/06 at 6:11pm justasking2 wrote:
I am not a HOOVER insider. If I were I would answer your questions to the best of my knowledge without revealing confidential information. If my HOOVER contacts want to reveal inside information to others beside me they will tell me if I can do so and I would respect their wishes. Let me rephrase my question for Matt mmc and Jim B and any dyson insiders who care to fend a straight forward question. It's been over a year since dyson pulled its canister from the US market. I would think dyson would be working extremely hard to get a new canister to the US market and the canadian market. After one year I would also think dyson is beyond the R & D phase and should be ready to launch any day rather than a year from now. Am I correct or incorrect? Or is dyson going in another path and trying to get its robotic suction vacuum to the USA before the canister? I think a UK poster suggested that if dyson didn't do so right now, it may miss the window of opportunity. Any comments from the dyson insiders on the above? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by mmc on 03/19/06 at 2:22pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Remember the DC15 was in R&D for 3 years before it came out. Dyson is a company that really tries to research, test, and build its products thouroughly before a launch. Dyson would rather wait a little longer and get it right, as opposed to pushing the product out too soon without proper testing.........IT IS COMING THOUGH!! I don't have a timeframe for it or any other particulars. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/19/06 at 3:37pm mmc wrote:
Thank you. I hope the DC15 product pricing was a lesson learned. The DC11 was too much at $500 and of course as you said Matt for a number of reasons was not right for the USA market. FWIW, a USA dyson canister that can compete with the likes of SEARS and others in the $400 range might be just the price market to re-enter. Then upgrade the canister with tools and features to a higher price to compete with Mieles and others. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 03/19/06 at 4:15pm I agree with this, I also thought the DC15 price was set a touch too high in it's early days. However, it is an established pricing strategy; set the initial early adaptor price a level you think the market will take and adjust afterwards. With the DC15, there was nothing else on the market with it's unique feature to act as a reference point. The alterative is to start low and increase the wholesale / retail price if / when it starts selling in volume, but that won't make you very popular with the retail buyers and consumers. You also take away the marketing opportunity that a 'was xxx.xx / now xxx.xx' offers. It's not all about margins, it's also revenue. In certain markets, such as the UK, which has a high number of Dyson uprights still in service, the DC15 model with 'The Ball' feature is an further incentive to trade up and replace their current cleaner. Ultimately, canister or upright, it gives Dyson great PR as innovative company. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by C.H.R.I.S. on 07/10/06 at 10:12am The DC15 can't be a bomb if it's one of Amazon.com top selling upright vacuum cleaners. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Kenneth_J. on 07/20/06 at 9:44pm I just wanted to let Carmine and the rest of the site users know that (Kenneth J.) was a Student of Industrial Design at Arizona State University, and won an award from the Arthritis foundation, when he invented the articulation patent for upright vacuum cleaner. Dyson sued me and I have the patent? Anyways I have not gone away...I have litigators and fine ones at that...and today I got my court date. September 6 at 10:00am in United States Federal court of appeals for the Federal circuit ( Dyson. Vs Weger). Dyson won a summery judgment motion saying that the word pair in my claim language requires items to be "separate" as spelled out by a twenty year old dictionary definition. I'm saying that the word pair is more encompassing- like the definition I used from a dictionary of the same date as the filing of my patent application...like a pair of pants, or glasses...ECT. how do i insert a picture onto a post? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/21/06 at 12:28am Kenneth_J. wrote:
Kenneth J: Good news. Keep the faith, don't give up, and fight the good fight to the end. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by tiger21 on 07/21/06 at 9:17am CHRIS, You make Amazon out to be an authority on how the country buys. Sorry no cigar. They are reporting only how things are there but no numbers. Show me the numbers please. I am told they are not selling good in Europe where they came from. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/23/06 at 4:36pm Hi Tiger21, Dysons still trying to figure how to unload these on the canadians, Why not his canisters are suppose to be the best selling canisters ever in china and other countries. I can say this because i dont work for or sell dyson. b.t.w. when are they going to be opening up factory owned stores. Have you heard about the buckeye, parts fiasco regards.. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/24/06 at 9:55am Hello OT: I've heard some buzz from several local vacuum store compadres about the replacement dyson clutch assemblies. Apparently some info given out at the last trade show turned out to be incorrect. Is this what you are referring too? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/26/06 at 7:28pm C.H.R.I.S. wrote:
Financial update status of amazon.com as of July 26. The stock price fell today in market trading over $7.33 a share to $26+ ps on lower than expected quarterly earnings of 5 cents a share. This is down from 12 cents a share for the same period last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072600210.html Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Dyson_Chris on 07/28/06 at 9:09am Dyson UK now offers all vacuums with a 5 year warranty. It would be nice if we will see this warranty in the US. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Legacy on 07/28/06 at 7:54pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Financial update status of amazon.com as of July 26. The stock price fell today in market trading over $7.33 a share to $26+ ps on lower than expected quarterly earnings of 5 cents a share. This is down from 12 cents a share for the same period last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072600210.html Carmine D. [/quote] Is this supposed to be deductive? |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/29/06 at 4:04am Legacy wrote:
Financial update status of amazon.com as of July 26. The stock price fell today in market trading over $7.33 a share to $26+ ps on lower than expected quarterly earnings of 5 cents a share. This is down from 12 cents a share for the same period last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072600210.html Carmine D. [/quote] Is this supposed to be deductive? [/quote] It's information about amazon.com and its latest financial developments and marketing strategy. Inductive, deductive, productive, seductive, reductive, information is useful and beneficial as a knowledge base. If you use it, how you use it, and the way you interpret it is up to you. If you are interested in knowing more about amazon.com's latest financial information and developments, the link is there for you to read. If not, you can pass over and move on. Your question is moot. :) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 07/29/06 at 4:57am All though I'm new to this forum, I have 25 + years in vacuum repair. As far as Dyson offering a 5 year warranty in America is concerned, I wouldn't hold your breath. There is a difference between cleaning primarily bare floor and a few throw rugs, in a small flat which are common in England, Vs, wall to wall thick plush carpet, that exists in a majority of American homes that not only have more carpet in them, but are overall larger. Now why should that make a difference? In America a Dyson is going to be used more in a larger home, with thicker carpeting which creates more fuzz, that builds up in the brush-roll which not only lessens the life of the brush roll due to carpet fiber build up in the bearing ends,(the ends of the brush roll that houses the bearing which allow the brush roll to spin freely) now the Dyson uses the same motor to run the brush roll, as it does to create suction, the extra resistance from the thicker carpet and extra carpet fuzz, will make the motor work harder, which makes it run hotter, which not only effects it's motor life but also heats up the plastic housing, which over time causes it to become brittle which then leads to fracturing. So unless they improve there design they can't afford to offer a 5 year warranty. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 07/29/06 at 5:12am If your trying to decide between the yellow model Dyson Vs, the Ball Dyson vacuum, I have tested both on my suction gauge, and the yellow model which sales for less has more suction than it's heavier counter part. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/29/06 at 6:46pm This Man has my respect, he knows his stuff......... welcome to our club friend.......... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/30/06 at 12:44pm I would agree that he knows his stuff. He is certainly right about the suction. The DC07 has more suction than the DC14, which in turn has more suction than the DC15. Dyson reduced the size of the hose opening on the DC15 to compensate for the lower Airwatts on the DC15 so as to provie more air velocity. On the other hand the DC15 has a better brushroll, and a separate brushroll motor, so the DC15 will clean deep carpets better than a DC07. If you use the vacuum on commercial carpet, or primarily with tools, then I think the DC07 or DC14 is a better choice. I use some DC07s for commercial carpet and with tools, and they have worked well for me. The one thing our new member may or may not know is that he's jumping into a long-standing debate, where some poster(s) would try to villify the Dyson as a horrible vacuum, and others believe it is the best vacuum. The truth is somewhere in between, in my opinion. Like any vacuum it has its strengths and weaknesses, and when used for the proper applications, it works well and performs reliably. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by M00seUK on 07/30/06 at 2:01pm Vac repair guy, thanks for your post - I'd not previously considered this angle on the US Dysons, that the machines could possibly be more prone to failure with the increase in carpet pile. As shown on their the website, Dyson's testing procedures are extensive, they have likely tested to simulate the average motor life on many different grades of carpet. It's likely one of the reasons that Dyson keeps the brushroll as it is, the other being that a more aggressive brushroll can cause noticable damage to a carpet over time. As I recall, Tom (Dual) meantioned a while back that Dyson have produced prototypes for the US with more aggressive bristles. Of course, you're unlikley to ever get any offical line from Dyson that some competitor's machines cause carpet wear. I agree that the 5 year warranty is unlikely to be offered in the US for the moment. This stratergy is surprising in a way, a lot of UK chain store retailers and their staff make money selling extended warranty policys at the time of purchase. However, the sweetener is the commisions for selling more of a higher-margin product. In way, very little changes, Dyson have always had a good history of correcting problems out of warranty, if it's shown to be a recognised design fault. It's a positive move, to convince people that they stand behind the relibiity of their machines, whatever the missleading, sensational-driven press releases & editorials might say when reporting the UK consumer surveys. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/30/06 at 2:24pm If it's true, as I expect, that more recent models have improved reliability over earlier ones, the 5 year warranty is an especially good idea. Consumers who have read "Which?" will consider the 5 year warranty to be worth much more than it will actually cost. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/30/06 at 2:54pm Hi , would one feel that Dyson is offering this warranty to offset the which reports,that Dyson has some quality issues. regards O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Legacy on 07/30/06 at 3:22pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Financial update status of amazon.com as of July 26. The stock price fell today in market trading over $7.33 a share to $26+ ps on lower than expected quarterly earnings of 5 cents a share. This is down from 12 cents a share for the same period last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/26/AR2006072600210.html Carmine D. [/quote] Is this supposed to be deductive? [/quote] It's information about amazon.com and its latest financial developments and marketing strategy. Inductive, deductive, productive, seductive, reductive, information is useful and beneficial as a knowledge base. If you use it, how you use it, and the way you interpret it is up to you. If you are interested in knowing more about amazon.com's latest financial information and developments, the link is there for you to read. If not, you can pass over and move on. Your question is moot. :) Carmine D. [/quote] The vast majority of your posts are moot. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/30/06 at 3:25pm Thank you, and may I expound on your opinion. Like all information and knowledge, it is how it is used and applied that makes it moot and/or meaningful. Some may find knowing a particular piece of information and/or fact to be moot. Others may find the same piece of information and fact to have a quintessential meaning and unique application that can benefit some area of unchartered finds. It's all in the person's perspective and frame of reference (and of course intelligence, emotional and mental). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/30/06 at 3:33pm The vast majority of your posts are moot. [/quote] Hi can anyone please tell me what moot means. excuse me for asking,but i hardly made it out of highschool. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 07/30/06 at 3:37pm Hey OT.... it means "open to question". And it's true, the vast majority of Carmines posts are MOOT!! |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/30/06 at 3:42pm OT: Here's the skinny on moot. adj. Subject to debate; arguable: a moot question. Law. Without legal significance, through having been previously decided or settled. Of no practical importance; irrelevant. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/30/06 at 3:44pm Thanks Bruce, are you saying Carmine speaks from his heart and not his head? O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Bruce on 07/30/06 at 3:49pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
That's you all over Carmine.... especially the very last sentence you wrote... Of no practical importance; irrelevant, does not compute ;D |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 07/30/06 at 4:15pm As far as using any Dyson for commercial use, other than maybe a couple of entry rugs, I wouldn't recommend them. the wheels are to easily locked up with sand,(if you own one look at the miniscule gap between the wheel and the housing, even a piece of sand is sufficient to stop it from turning) and before you know it there worn flat, leaving the base to be ground down. In fact I've noticed that even in home use, were the Dyson is used primarily on carpet, that if you look at the base of the unit, along with the lower unclog tube, that there is significant ware, generated from rubbing across the carpet, And the concern I have is if the vacuum base is waring a way from the friction generated from pushing the vacuum across the carpet, could there be carpet ware generated from the same action? P.S. Thank you for you welcome, Old Timer |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/30/06 at 4:36pm Hi Vac repair guy, i have an idea why dyson would not up their warranty to 5 years in the u.s.after reading your last post. Could this be the reason why for example[sharp comercial uprights said for household use only on the manufactures labels on the motor housings of the machines and the bag housings said in big letters COMMERCIAL? and only offersd a 90 day motor warranty only and nothing on the rest of the unit O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 07/31/06 at 2:44am Old Timer, Sounds to me like you hit the nail right on the head. What I find amusing about most of the brands out there, that offer both a domestic and a commercial vacuum, is aparently all that s required to convert a vacuum from domestic use to comercial use, is a longer, and generally orange, grounded cord. Oh and of corse a Heavy Duty sticker. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/31/06 at 10:45am Moot most certainly does not mean an issue that is already decided. That is Res Judacata. Nor does it mean a question that the question is not of practical importance. The correct definition of Moot is "..an abstarct question that does not arise upon existing facts or rights." Adams v. Union R. Co., 21 R.I. 134, 42 A. 515, 44 L.R.A. 273. Thus it is a question that, while it may be interesting, does not need to be decided to settle a matter before the court. The question may indeed be very interesting. It may come up in a future case. It may even urgently need to be decided as a matter of public policy. But, it doesn't need to be decided in order to reach a ruling on the specific case in front of the cout. Thus the court avoids aruling on the issue by declaring it moot. If you are going to use words, know what they mean. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/31/06 at 11:04am vac repair guy wrote:
Vac repair guy, I do use Dyson's commercially, and they have performed well for me. My one complaint, which I have posted here several times, is exactly what you mention above - the sole-plate rollers are a joke, and they quickly jam up, and then begin to roll flat. When I just maintained two of them, we went ahead and replaced the sole-plate rollers,but even though they were inexpensive, I'm not sure it was worth doing because they will no doubt stick again soon. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/31/06 at 11:13am cprohman wrote:
CPro: Excellent advice. As you know many words in the English language have multiple meanings. There are the official dictionary definitions and the vernacular. And of course there are words that are specific to an industry, like bojack and the vacuum industry. The word was coined and used in the industry long before it saw the covers of Webster. But this is a moot issue now. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 07/31/06 at 11:16am cprohman wrote:
Vac repair guy, I do use Dyson's commercially, and they have performed well for me. My one complaint, which I have posted here several times, is exactly what you mention above - the sole-plate rollers are a joke, and they quickly jam up, and then begin to roll flat. When I just maintained two of them, we went ahead and replaced the sole-plate rollers,but even though they were inexpensive, I'm not sure it was worth doing because they will no doubt stick again soon. [/quote] On thick carpets the dyson sole-plate and roller inadequacies would be a definite dyson drawback. I believe this is exactly vac repair guy's point. The dyson rug nozzle gets entrenched into the rug pile which makes it hard to maneuver across the carpets, makes the motor and vacuum run hot, degrades motor operation, warps plastic tolerances due to excessive heat buildup which in turn spews more dirt into the air and wears the vacuum and user out prematurely. Although the failsafe clutch prevents use under some of these conditions, users don't have any options to resolve the inadequacies. Not a moot point either for a premium priced vacuum. The inadequacy impugns dyson's performance and RELIABILITY. ;) A manual rug height adustment would better serve the dyson vacuums which are sold by big box retailers for premium high prices. The premium high prices are supposedly justified based on the fact that the dyson uprights are designed to perform and operate well on ALL USA household carpets. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/31/06 at 12:47pm I don't think the sole-plate rollers would be as prone to clogging on a high-pile carpet as they are on commercial carpet. As regards his other point, that the soleplate would wear though, we haven't seen that. Even though we have used these commercially now for 3 1/2 years, and even though the sole-plate rollers clogged fairly early on, I personally inspected the soleplates, and they aren't likely to wear through any time soon. When the vacuums ultimately die, I doubt that a soleplate failure will be the cause. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 07/31/06 at 5:08pm Most all lawn mowers hava a plastic shroud covering the engine, including the muffler. It does not warp or get brittle and crack. I can touch my Dyson while vacuuming and it is not even warm. My lawn mower on the other hand will blister your hand if you touch the muffler shortly after starting the engine. Those who create enough friction to destroy the plastic on the Dyson must vacuum at warp speed. Come on guys. If you want to critize Dyson find a good reason. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 07/31/06 at 5:09pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
CPro: Excellent advice. As you know many words in the English language have multiple meanings. There are the official dictionary definitions and the vernacular. And of course there are words that are specific to an industry, like bojack and the vacuum industry. The word was coined and used in the industry long before it saw the covers of Webster. But this is a moot issue now. ;) Carmine D. [/quote] I did not realize that the vacuum industry existed prior to the dictionary. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 07/31/06 at 5:55pm In 2 years repairing dyson I have not seen one example of this issue in the real world. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 07/31/06 at 6:58pm ]Most all lawn mowers hava a plastic shroud covering the engine, including the muffler. It does not warp or get brittle and crack. I can touch my Dyson while vacuuming and it is not even warm. My lawn mower on the other hand will blister your hand if you touch the muffler shortly after starting the engine. Those who create enough friction to destroy the plastic on the Dyson must vacuum at warp speed. Come on guys. If you want to critize Dyson find a good reason.[/quote] Hi Hardsell, The engine in your lawnmower is an internal conbustion engine, that fires an air/fuel mixture. some 2 stroke some 4 stroke,cylender head temperatures are very high,unlike a vacuum cleaner motor,which is air cooled in most cases,When air flow is impeaded the motors run hot,[thermal protectors]. Here is a hint for you, ask any engine builder does methonal [I.E. alcohol] run at cooler temperatures than gasoline.Of course nitro methane is another story all together, remember the N.H.R.A. ban on NITRO. You are comparing totally different animals regards. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 07/31/06 at 8:01pm Sorry OT. I thought that heat was heat. So 500 degrees is hotter from electricity than from combustion. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 07/31/06 at 9:43pm JimB wrote:
Jim, I don't think most users notice if the soleplate rollers stop turning, so people wouldn't bring the vacuum in unless it had some other, more serious, problem. The fact that the rollers weren't turning certainly didn't keep us from using it. You might look specifically for this problem on vacuums brouht in for other reasons and see if you find it. If you don't, that shows me that this is a problem only on commercial carpet and not on home carpets- I have it, not on every roller on every vacuum, but on 2-3 rollers per vacuum on all vacuums. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 08/01/06 at 6:30am HARDSELL wrote:
CPro: Excellent advice. As you know many words in the English language have multiple meanings. There are the official dictionary definitions and the vernacular. And of course there are words that are specific to an industry, like bojack and the vacuum industry. The word was coined and used in the industry long before it saw the covers of Webster. But this is a moot issue now. ;) Carmine D. [/quote] I did not realize that the vacuum industry existed prior to the dictionary. [/quote] Come on HS: Words existed long before Webster's dictionary. And specifically "bojack" which arose from the vacuum industry was coined by HOOVER reps used in the vacuum industry vernacular long before it appeared in the dictionary. Many words HARDSELL exist for years in the spoken language before they ever appear in the dictionary. Even you know or should know that each year the dictionary adds words and their meanings for words used in the English language. How about the UK English language and "HOOVERING" the rugs. It's as a part of the Queen's english as HEMI is here to the auto industry. Dictionaries even have a separate listing for these new words and their usage and derivation. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Legacy on 08/01/06 at 11:11am Pretentious. Annoying. Those are defined on a daily basis here. ;) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 08/01/06 at 11:09pm Hardsell, Im not talking about melt down temperatures, Im talking about the plastic components that are being dried out by motor heat, and also the exhaust heat that takes place in a vacuum that uses a filter or a bag to capture are reduce dirty air from escaping the vacuum. As the filters or bags fill up with dirt they reduce air flow which increases motor temperature and depending upon how long you are using the vacuum,(like heavy commercial use) will have an effect on the overall motor life and housing life,(the housing generally doesn't melt down, it becomes brittle and cracks) And as far as the friction generated by pushing a plastic based vacuum with poor wheel design is concerned, I haven't seen a Dyson yet with out base ware, and if there is enough friction to generate ware, there is over time going to be enough heat that will dry out the plastic making it subseptable to cracking, most people just assume that some one was hard on it, and blame the user and not the design. And quincidently enough so does the Manufacture. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 08/02/06 at 9:51am vac repair guy wrote:
That is an interesting point that I don't think we've had brought up here. One of the fringe benefits of the Dyson filtration system may be longer motor and housing life because, unlike bags and filters, airflow remains constant, so the motor should be better cooled during use. Perhaps that is why there are so few motor problems on Dysons even though it uses an inexpensive Panasonic fan. By the same logic, vacuums that use filtrette-type bags should have longer motor life than vacuums using conventional bags, since filtrette bags maintain airflow better. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 08/02/06 at 7:24pm cprohman, If Dyson maintains air flow, then why on earth do you need to clean their primary washable filter, and replace their non washable $35. post filter? Dyson's claim of no loss of air flow, defies vacuum physics, if in deed his vacuum does not lose air flow, even with a half full container of fine dust , and a totally CLOGGED filter, and a carbon dust filled exhaust post filter, we will have to add the Dyson vacuum to the list of the greatest wonders of the world. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 08/02/06 at 7:39pm I wouldn't want to presume to speak for the inventer of the Ball Barrow, But I wonder if some how instead of air flow, which is reduced by dirty filters, which last time I checked Dyson has two, he instead meant suction? Which is very interesting, because, a lot of people don't know the difference, and don't realise that you can make the DOESN'T LOSE SUCTION claim on any sealed motor vacuum made.(assuming the vacuum doesnt leak any were, before the air reaches the motor, like the Dyson does) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 08/02/06 at 8:16pm vac repair guy wrote:
If you have a totally clogged filter then you either have a filthy home or you have not cleaned the filter in years. I have only cleaned my filter onec in two years. My Hoover with a pleated filter had to be cleaned at least once before finishing each vacuuming session I have never replace any Dyson filter. Since you seem to have a grudge against Dyson what is your recommendation for the best all around vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 08/02/06 at 9:32pm vac repair guy wrote:
No need to get silly, the claim of constant suction would obviously only be valid if the machine's instructions are followed. If the pre motor filter is cared for as instructed twice a year and the dirt bin is emptied before the marked full line all should be fine. Test the suction for yourself as I have it keeps consistent airflow as long as you have the dirt bin below the fill line and the filter rinsed twice a year. I have never seen the small amount of carbon dust that comes of all carbon brush motors effect a post motor hepa. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 08/03/06 at 1:16am vac repair guy wrote:
Even when I have used it to pick up several bins full drywall dust, the primary washable filter has not ever been clogged (try that with any other bagless vacuum of your choice). If you clean the washable filter on a regular schedule, the Dyson should never lose airflow. As for the $35 non-washable post filter, I can't imagine why anyone would need to replace it. I have taken mine out and examined them, and mine are fine even after all the dirt I've picked up, and that's a lot of dirt. As for your assertion that Dyson's claim of no loss of airflow defys physics, perhaps you are unaware that according to tests what actually happens is that as the Dyson starts filling with dirt, the airflow actually increases at first, before gradually going down, but that it always stays above the initial level. The reason is that a completely empty bin provides more friction to the airflow than a partially full bin because the completely empty bin has sharper corners. Becuase the airflow remains above the initial level at all times, courts have ruled that Dyson can use the claim of no loss of airflow. Now, as you point out, it is true that if a customer abuses the vacuum and doesn't ever clean the pre-motor filter, it will eventually lose suction, and the motor may overheat, but this is outside the normal operating conditions of the vacuum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 08/03/06 at 2:34am Then why even bother having any filters at all? And as you stated in your post below and I quote: (cprohm) If you clean the washable filter on a regular schedule, the Dyson should never lose airflow. It would appear from your quote listed above, that washing the Dysons air filter (and isn't it called an air filter, because it is filtering the dirt from the air) is part of maintaining air flow, so if a dirty air filter reduces air flow, at what time does this reduction take place? After 5 minutes of vacuuming or 25? And if washing the filter is all that is necessary to restore maximum air flow, how is it any different than just replacing a bag , couldn't any manufacture with a bag system make the same claim that Dyson does? And I wont even mention all the different areas around the rubber seals that the Dyson leaks, well not in detail any way. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by vac repair guy on 08/03/06 at 3:15am Hardsell, I don't have a grudge toward Dyson, in fact Dyson makes one of the best designed and most powerful bagless vacuum that Im aware of. The only problem I have with any manufacturer, is when they exaggerate the claims of there products filtration, cleaning prowess, and intentionally under design certain components or charge more than the product is worth. I handle warranty work, and repair work for just about every vacuum made. I have nothing to gain by pushing one vacuum over the other, But what works for my situation, may not work for you. If there was just one vacuum that every body agreed on as being the best, It would sure make my life a lot easier behind the repair bench. Do you know we stock over 150 different vacuum bags and filters, and I wont even begain to tell you how many parts we have to stalk. Hey if you own a Dyson and it's working, then I'll share with you what my dad shared with me, the best of any thing you can own is two thing's 1 working 2 paid for. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 08/03/06 at 11:30am vac repair guy, I understand your point, and some time ago I would have agreed with you. Certainly it is true that the airflow through the washable filter starts declining as soon as dirt begins to reach it, and would ultimately reduce to nothing if it were never washed. I was curious about this, so I read about the lawsuit in England where the claim of no loss of airflow was challenged in court. It was in reading that case that I realized that the resistance to airflow in the cyclones was actually decreasing as it collected dirt, more than offsetting the loss of airflow in the pre-motor filter, so that as the vacuum was used, the overall airflow actually inceased initially before beginning to slowly fall, and that during the test period it always remained above the initial airflow level. How long was the test period? How long does the airflow remain above the initial level? I don't know. How does the airflow after 6 months compare to the airflow out of the box? I can't give you a number, but if it is down, it isn't down much. As a practical matter, most consumers wouldn't notice any difference unless they didn't clean the pre-motor filter. In advertising you can make all sorts of claims, but the fact is that if consumers can clearly see that the claim is false, there will be a significant negative backlash in time. That hasn't happened with Dyson because consumers have found the claim to be true. As a pratical matter, if you have tested the vacuum, and I'm sure you have, you realize that the airflow is remarkably constant. You also realize that the cleaning schedule given for the pre-motor filter, every 6 months, is realistic, and that if the filter is cleaned on that schedule, a user will always have excellent airflow, but whether that number is 92% of new or 101% of new I can't say. Some other filtration methods, such as Filtrette bags, also do fairly well at maintaining airflow better than conventional bags, and some methods, such as pleated filters, do worse than conventional bags. Water filtration also maintains airflow, but as everyone knows, has other drawbacks (dirty water, trouble dealing with non-wettable dust, etc.) I'm not here to tell you that the Dyson, or any other vacuum, is perfect. I don't work on vacuums as a profession, but I do own a lot of them, only a few of which are Dysons. The Dyson has its strength - the filtration, and the ability to maintain airflow. It also has its weaknesses - the beater bar and the soleplate rollers, to name two. If you want to criticize the Dyson for its weaknesses, fine, but don't be like some other posters and forget to give it credit for the things it does well. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Kenneth_J. on 09/12/06 at 3:31pm Dyson won. The appeals court affirmed the decision of the Federal court. That the "pair of hemispherically shaped wheels" as written and covered in my patent, does not include dysons dc-15 single ball. That the ordinary meaning the word pair requires things to be separate??? Anyways...... Congratulations Mr. Dyson. :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/12/06 at 5:57pm Hello Kenneth J: You fought the good fight. Be at peace with yourself. BTW, the DC15 Ball is doing a Claude Rains at all major retailers: They are disappearing off the shelves due to lack of sales and interest and after dyson lowered the prices more than $100. So perhaps you won in street justice rather than court justice. :) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by HARDSELL on 09/12/06 at 8:47pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Scored very well in the latest CR ratings. Maybe that is why they are disappearing. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 09/12/06 at 9:28pm THe DC15 Ball was only dyson vacuum in the top 10 AND the only vacuum in the top 10 that scored only a "GOOD" rating for carpet cleaning. All the others scored very good and/or excellent. It is also the most expensive in the top 10. That's probably the reason it is doing a Claud Rains: Disappearing like the invisible man. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/28/07 at 8:36am HARDSELL wrote:
Scored very well in the latest CR ratings. Maybe that is why they are disappearing.[/quote] In yet another ironic twist of fate for the ill-founded DC15 Ball dyson, the latest global fad in office chairs even among such notables as Google, BMW and Sprint Nextel are gym balls. Yes, that's right. Move over executive leather office chairs (priced from $900-1600) and make room for balance and fit ball chairs from 18 to 30 inches as little as $24 to as much as $100. More than 11,000 were sold in 2006 the second year of operations. Looks like dyson dropped the ball and WittFitt LLC picked it up and ran for the gold. Kenneth J's revenge! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Kenneth_J. on 04/13/07 at 2:36am I have the patent! Kenneth J. Weger Patent# 5,794,305 I really didn't have a "trial" as I understood a trial to be and it was appealed federally. Live and Learn. I contacted Dyson too introduce my patent. He said he would get back to me in fifteen days….and 5 days later I was sued by 14 New York attorneys. He sued me. Oh Hello there. My case was decided on summery judgment…Before a "trial" as I understood a trial to be, not like on TV….On the ordinary meaning of the word "pair" as used in my patent. Yes that’s right. My dictionary said a pair was corresponding things…. and the person who sued me' dictionary said a pair has to be separate things. So my case was decided on one word before a jury trial. "Pair" Ok….fine I still believe that the patent shows the world the best way, A pair of wheels for left and right turns...then and now…..I also believe that I will one day get a license arrangement and the full potential of this wonderful idea will be realized… I had the "Eureka" moment when I discovered, recognized and patented this incredibly innovative solution that added the mobility that those with arthritis lacked into the upright vacuum…The idea received a design award from the Arthritis foundation...No one can take that or that moment away from me… I invented it…. Kenneth J. :) |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 04/13/07 at 1:42pm Patent law tends to be arcane, and not easily comprehended by outsiders, but it has worked reasonably well over the years. Many different issues may determine the outcome. Are two inventions subtantially different, or essentially the same? Does a patent explain the invention accurately and precisely? Is an invention novel, or was it anticipated by the prior art? If the judge awarded a summary judgment against you, that means that that he felt the case was so clear based on the pleadings that that there no issue of fact remaining. Essentially he was saying that even if everything in your pleadings was true, you would still lose, so there was no reason for a trial. From your decription, it sounds like he ruled that the Dyson system was substantially different than the one descriped in your patent application, and that Dyson is not infringing on your patent. As for who sued whom, that is a technicality. I presume they sued immediately upon learning of your patent because they wanted the decided quickly. They didn't believe they were infringing, but wanted to have that verified by a court. I can't blame them for wanting to know where they stood. By the way, if you still feel that your invention was essentially the same, perhaps the blame lies with whoever drafted your patent application. Perhaps the way they drafted it was too narrow, and thus it didn't cover another invention that wasn't quite the same. On the other hand, if you try to draft a patent that is overly broad, that can get you in trouble in a different way, because then the entire patent could be voided. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/13/07 at 2:36pm Kenneth J (engineering student) versus 14 hot shot NY lawyers in 3 piece suits with 3 names. Sound like justice? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by No Loss of Suction on 04/13/07 at 3:07pm Kenneth_J. wrote:
Kenneth, Just to get a clearer picture of who Dyson is... When you said "I contacted Dyson too introduce my patent" - what is meant by this? - Did you tell him he was infringing on your patent or did you discuss something else? Did you talk with Dyson himself? Did you have a lawyer contact Dyson or did you go it alone? I wish you all the best. Keep inventing Kenneth. If I may suggest... if liscensing an invention is what you are after then invent in a market or for manufactures who welcome and indeed liscense outside inventions. Some mfgs have inventor welcome mats out but really do not liscense much. - Toy mfgs are big on this - Mattel for instance sees (I'm told) 1500 to 2000 inventions per yr. but only a handful are liscensed. No Loss of Suction |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by cprohman on 04/13/07 at 3:12pm In the US if you have a lucrative case that can be won, you can usually find an attorney willing to represent you on contingency. I don't know if Kenneth explored this route or not, but I do recall that he did have representation, and it wasn't 14 attorneys against Kenneth, it was Dyson's attorneys against Kenneth's attorney(s). I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to Kenneth. I hope that, if his invention is a good one, he can license it to other vacuum makers. Rather I just wanted to make it clear that if someone says that Dyson is using his invention, the fact is that a court has ruled that the device that Dyson is using and Kenneth's device are not the same thing. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by JimB on 04/13/07 at 4:21pm Carmine, You did it to me again... You caught my attention as I thought you may be on to something with your most current rant, I play online for an hour instead of working the machine I have on the bench only to find out it doesn't add up. When am I going to learn. First I looked up the patent and I like the idea. Kenneth you should pursue this idea further but unfortunately as it looks like the court agreed with it's summary decision it is not the same or describe the dyson ball. It clearly states 2 (pair) wheels that seem to alternate being used on the surface not one ball shape at the pivot point. I do like the fact that you also state a use on things such as a lawn mower. I hope you continue to pursue this idea and wish you luck as I was searching you have some other Patents out there I like your Belt Sander Idea. Carmine_Difazio wrote:
http://www.leydig.com/FirmOverview/FirmOverview.aspx A link to the firm that is listed filing the patents listed for Kenneth J. Leydig, Voit & Mayer, Ltd., HMMM 3 names how interesting I wonder if they wear suits ( I am betting they may have wore the 3 piece variety while arguing in front of our supreme court). Even though they seemed to have represented for filing I have no clue if they would have taken the case with dyson but if Dyson went up against this firms 80 attorneys and 100 years of reputation with only 14 attorneys it would seem to be a mismatch. The continued implication of an engineering student out there fighting this battle is also interesting as this firm seems to have been registering patents for Kenneth last decade so I guess I am very impressed he was able to hire such a prestigous firm to file rather technical patents while in grade school ;). I do like your passion though, next thing we know you will be praising "engineering student" James Dyson's win over the huge company (Hoover) and all their high priced fancy attorneys for infringing on his patents when he was getting started. |
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Title: Re: Dyson's The Ball (DC15) Post by old-timer on 04/13/07 at 5:42pm Hi Kenny,I would not get to upset over this patent problem with dyson,your application for this would probally would have been used in other than vacuum cleaner applications. Look on the bright side it was a failure on the dc15, this machine has been a bomb since introduced in the states. Would you want your good name associated with this? regards O.T. |
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