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/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl General >> Vacuum Cleaner Forum >> Dyson DC21 /cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1172104948 Message started by Dyson_Chris on 02/21/07 at 7:42pm |
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Title: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 02/21/07 at 7:42pm Thanks M00seUK http://www.ccnmatthews.com/library/20070221-Dyson2_512.jpg http://www.futureshop.ca/multimedia/products/large/10084985.jpg MONTREAL, QUEBEC--(CCNMatthews - Feb. 21, 2007) - Dyson is celebrating its one year anniversary in Canada with the introduction of the Dyson Canada Design Competition, the launch of two new products - the Slim and the Stowaway - and a 21% market share(i). "Dyson Canada has grown to become Dyson's fastest growing subsidiary worldwide," confirmed James Dyson founder and the inventor of the company's patented cyclone technology. Dyson was in town to celebrate the company's anniversary and to launch a design award for Canadian design and engineering students. "My hope is that the Dyson Canada Design Competition will encourage young Canadian designers and engineers to think differently about how to find innovative solutions to every day problems - and will encourage and inspire our next generation of designers," said Dyson, who famously made thousands of design prototypes in his quest to develop the Dyson vacuum. The Dyson Canada Design Competition is open to Canadian design teams and individuals who are full-time students or who have recently graduated (within one year) from a recognized college, CEGEP or Canadian university. The company will accept design submissions from March 1 through to November 15, 2007 and application information is online at www.dyson.com. The winner of the Dyson Canada Design Competition will receive $5,000 in cash; an award, and a Dyson vacuum cleaner. The Canadian winner will be entered into the international James Dyson Design Award, with a prize fund of up to 10,000 pounds sterling. Dyson Launches Two New Products "The Dyson Canada Design Competition is an exciting way to start our second year in Canada and we look forward to seeing the response from young Canadian designers," explained Dyson Canada President, Andrew Robinson. "The Dyson Slim is the most powerful lightweight on the market and the Dyson Stowaway is our first canister vacuum in Canada," explained Robinson, adding that 60% of Quebec's vacuum sales are canister vacuums. "Both feature Dyson's patented cyclone technology - so they don't clog or lose suction - and deliver Dyson's trademark superior cleaning performance." "Canada's response to Dyson has been amazing," said Robinson. "In 2006, Dyson helped drive 17% dollar growth in upright vacuum sales and we're now the #2 brand with a 21% dollar share of the nation's upright vacuum sales," he said. "We have an amazing team and an exciting product that Canadians really appreciate and are responding to," said Robinson, who adds that within 6 weeks of launching the DC16 handheld into the Canadian market, Dyson had captured a 10% dollar share. About Dyson Dyson is committed to making products that work better for everyone. Headquartered in Malmesbury, England, more than a third of Dyson's 2000 employees worldwide are scientists and engineers. In 2005, Dyson invested an estimated 50 million pounds sterling into R&D. Dyson is sold in 44 countries around the world and is the top selling brand in Western Europe, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, the UK and Ireland. Dyson has received numerous awards for technological innovation including the Industrial Design Prize of America, the Chicago Athenaeum Good Design Prize, the European Design Prize, the Super Good of the Year (Japan), L'Etoile de l'Observeur du Design (France) and was recognized as one of Time magazine's coolest inventions of 2002. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 02/21/07 at 7:44pm Does it look large like the DC08 or small like the DC12? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Mac Daddy on 02/21/07 at 10:32pm Nice, I like that it has the powerhead from the DC18, as well as The Ball....but that leaves me to wonder, is the DC20 going to be the same model with the aggressive brushroll of the DC17? In addition, I noticed that the DC18 will finally be launching in Canada; how long before we see it in North America? Also, are these new canister models using Root Cyclone or Level 3 Root Cyclone? Listed at FutureShop: DC21 - http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B2F85612BBB7512FD2B70389D0C845279066D5244319B89E7B64A1253328417808CAC22204A7C0139FA37DDE005DB26C168E9421992DB5BC94276EDC8D9918E3FC3096C378157173AE313D9CAB8D6537AE560A705DD330380EE837356F4CCF37B1C7FD761EFDC913E6FD142BB6A596EF970FEE7DCE9B11000865B547F92E497E182974951B9715277B503321F8D7515EEE9638DC245864E31FC75FF565625E0961B32F52BD7B04CABF849ED1332980698A4B24B2C016A5AF9997A374A881896286&sku_id=0665000FS10084985&catid= DC18 - http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&MSCSProfile=3C79F0C7EA3162B2F85612BBB7512FD2B70389D0C845279066D5244319B89E7B64A1253328417808CAC22204A7C0139FA37DDE005DB26C168E9421992DB5BC94276EDC8D9918E3FC3096C378157173AE313D9CAB8D6537AE560A705DD330380EE837356F4CCF37B1C7FD761EFDC913E6FD142BB6A596EF970FEE7DCE9B11000865B547F92E497E182974951B9715277B503321F8D7515EEE9638DC245864E31FC75FF565625E0961B32F52BD7B04CABF849ED1332980698A4B24B2C016A5AF9997A374A881896286&sku_id=0665000FS10084984&catid=#MoreInfo |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 02/22/07 at 7:16am 599.99 Canada Dollars = about 517.347 United States Dollars |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/07 at 7:41am Dyson_Chris wrote:
Very pricey models for big box stores' sales venue, dyson's primary sales focus and force in the USA. The DC17 is now just 6 months old in the USA with an MSRP of $549 (US). And is being offered now on sale by retailers with 20 percent off and/or "in store/instant savings" and $50 Giftcards. And there is a glut of inventory of the DC07, DC14, and DC15 models still in retailers' stock. These models are "obsolete" and several years old. A lightweight slimmed down dyson upright (DC18) at $569 (Canadian) and $500 US; and power headed canister (DC21) at $599 (Canadian) and $520 US are a lot of money in the USA big box stores' vacuum market. Why? The average cost of a new vacuum for the last 5 years in the USA, according to Consumer Reports, is about $200 (US). CR consistently warns US vacuum buyers that paying more doesn't get you more. The new vacuum price is even less for big box stores which have to sell more and more new vacuums year after year to stay ahead of the competition. BEST BUY stores' receptions for the DC15 Ball and DC11 canister (the retailer dyson selected for the dyson launch) were disastrous: Both dyson models had huge price drops within a couple of months of their USA launch. And the latter (with an MSRP in May/June 2004 of $499 (US) at the time of launch in the USA) was pulled completely from the US vacuum market in Feb 2005. That's just 2 years ago. Have the facts and circumstances of the USA vacuum market changed so drastically in that short time? Dyson may fancy himself a marketing genius for his products in Canada and Japan. But his perception doesn't square with the reality of the dyson track record in the USA (and even in the UK and Europe where vacuum buyers are getting dyson-ed out). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 02/22/07 at 8:31am So the DC21 is here! It's like a DC15/18 and DC08 TW rolled into one! So they have modified the DC08 to include new features and technology! The DC08 is a well proven design for Dyson! The powerhead looks good and should clean better than an air powered head! Looks like they have used the small ball design off the DC18 Slim with the powerhead off the DC18 too, the DC15 powerhead is slightly different with that having a metal soleplate and large debris pickup at the front, which the DC18 does not have nor does it look like the DC21 powerhead have! No sign of the digital motor yet! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 02/22/07 at 11:59am Doesn't look like any digital motor is coming anytime soon. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 02/22/07 at 12:42pm Now we know what they did with all the dc15 powerheads, they adapted it to the canister. comments. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 02/22/07 at 12:52pm old-timer wrote:
More specifically to the canister's power head. IMHO overkill and useless for a 3.5 pound (at most) vacuum power head nozzle attachment. The same power head nozzle maneuverability can (and is achieved) with a 180 degree right to left swivelling handle/bail/neck that raises simultaneously 90 degrees up and down. Customary now in the US vacuum industry for some time. At considerably less the cost, less the weight, and probably less likely the need for repair. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 03/01/07 at 8:06am Looks like the 21 is going to be one powerfully canister with 255 airwatts. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/01/07 at 9:16am Dyson_Chris wrote:
Hello Chris: For all its faults, the short-lived dyson DC11 canister was praised by Consumer Reports for the best tool and suction airflow of all the canisters tested. Dyson has that nailed down pat. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/01/07 at 11:41am Check out the short 16.9 ft cord on the cordwinder. All the cordreels I know go from 20 - 28.5 feet. The 255 airwatts power is better but still not running what most new vacuums have. Haven't seen how the combination of power head and suction do yet. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Mike_W. on 03/01/07 at 1:42pm The cord length is 21ft. Cord length should be approx. 30ft. or more. When you have a long cord, there is less amount of time required to stop and move the plug. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/01/07 at 4:16pm Mike W. , According to the spec sheet the cord length is 16.9 ft. This according to specs on Future shop link up. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 03/01/07 at 5:05pm 255 airwatts I would of thought it woulld be 300 air watts like the UK DC08 TW is! Doesn't look like it uses Level 3 Root Cyclone Technology! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/02/07 at 12:05am The 255 airwatts power may be the 110 volt motor and 300 is at 220 volt. Many motors change power due to this conversion. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/02/07 at 7:19am tiger21 wrote:
Hello Tiger21: 16.4' according to Future Shop specs with a hose length of 11.89' for a total cleaning range of 38 feet (comparable for most US canisters). Some of the cord however MAY be needed for the internal cord reel rewind too and unavailable for use. Sometimes these specs are incorrect. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Mike_W. on 03/02/07 at 12:57pm Canada is on the metric system. You can see that he left some specs metric, but tried to convert others w/bad results. The cord length is 6.5m. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/02/07 at 2:23pm Airwatts depend on the orifice size used,the standard is 2.85, however with diameter size changes,such as half in'' one inch'' one and a half '',etc,the air watt ratings,can change for the high side dramaticly,To put it into simpler terms,put a crevice tool at the machine end and see where these numbers go. The dual cyclone set up works on the same principle ;) O.T. It's just a big numbers game.[right Carmine] 150 cfm is not much airmovement. But will suffice in a vacuum cleaner.......... |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by VacOMatic on 03/03/07 at 8:07pm Outside of Central Vacs, I've not seen any home vac that does better than 150 - 170 Cfm; Miele, Sebo, etc are examples that hit or get close to that range. What other brands can achive / are rated for that airflow? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 03/10/07 at 3:01pm Nice Picture. http://www.futureshop.ca/multimedia/products/large/10084985.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 03/10/07 at 3:10pm I believe you can turn the powerhead on/off by a foot switch on the head it's self. The red botton thats on the right of that picture of the powerhead! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 03/11/07 at 8:54am Pic of the new Dyson 'flat out' tool... http://www.dyson.fr/range/feature_images/dc20/flatout_tool.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 03/11/07 at 10:50am M00seUK wrote:
Not sure about this one but I can't see it vacuuming up larger pieces like cookie crumbs. http://www.dyson.fr/range/feature_images/dc20/flatout_tool.jpg Will most likely get this one. http://www.english.dysoncanada.ca/range/feature_images/dc21/hardfloor_tool.jpg |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/11/07 at 3:58pm Are any USA retailers stocking and selling the dyson DC21 Stowaway? And what are the selling prices and/or price ranges of the DC21 among US retailers? Or will the dyson Stowaway be sold exclusively through the US independent vacuum cleaner stores? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson_Chris on 03/11/07 at 4:14pm So far it looks like one retailer has it listed on there website and they have it listed for $499.99 Carmine_Difazio wrote:
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 03/11/07 at 5:58pm The 'flat out' tool is available on the New DC19 Origin launched in the UK! I've had a look at it and it has a thin opening. There is a very thin row of brushes at the back! " velour strips! Two red strips on the edge cleaning you can open and close! You can just make them out on the picture posted by M00seUK. This seems to be the standard floor tool on the DC19 Origin, more suitable for hard floors more than carpet! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/11/07 at 6:37pm Carmine, Just look at this So soon. Click Here (http://catalog.hsn.com/shop-134/hm/2699/hp!sf!2773.htm) |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/11/07 at 9:15pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Thank you. I'll be on the lookout for it on HSN. Any reasons for dyson going the HSN sales route for the dyson DC21 Stowaway first before the big box retailers and independents? This sales venue is out of marketing character for dyson and its products. The big box US stores who have business agreements to sell companies' product lines "demand" the first sales (or right of refusal) before HSN, save exclusive product agreements like the FUSION and Wal*Mart. This HSN first sale goes contrary to the established practice.....unless the big stores all said no to the dyson DC21. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/12/07 at 2:14pm Hello, I am new to to this forum. This is my first post. Re: Dyson Stowaway on HSN. Last weekend on HSN Dave ? (Dyson rep) was asked when he was returning to sell more product. He was somewhat guarded with his answer and just said he would be returning on 3/20 "with something". Crunchgear.com says DC18's and DC21's are comming out later this month... http://crunchgear.com/2007/03/07/vacuums-that-really-suck/ Rob. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/12/07 at 2:26pm That maybe it. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Trilobite on 03/12/07 at 5:58pm Excuse my stupidity, but what is the difference between the DC19, DC20, and DC21? I was in a Currys store and saw them up close. They all look like DC08's with no particular feature that would entice me to buy them. There was no mention of digital motors; and in fact they had less suction power than DC08. Has Dyson decided to give each model variant (i.e.; Animal, Allergy, Origin, etc.) its own model number? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/12/07 at 7:48pm Trilobite wrote:
The DC21 is in Canada for sale (according to the dyson CAN Web site): Two models are available: The DC21 Stowaway; and the DC21 Stowaway Full Kit which is available exclusively at COSTCO. Same model number, different model name. In the USA, the short-lived DC11 dyson canister didn't have a name. Big mistake by dyson. Customers can't remember model numbers but they can easily remember catchy names. Why the DC21 in Canada FIRST? Canadian vacuum consumers have always been more inclined to canisters and tanks (commonly called cylinders in the EU) than the US vacuum buyers. Americans have shown a propensity over the last half century for uprights. Hence the prevalence and popularity of central vacuum systems in Canada vice the USA. Although the tide has been changing recently in the USA with more consumers inclined to buy canisters and CVS. Still uprights are king of the hill in the USA and I don't think any canister and/or tank with/without a top notch power nozzle can change the half century trend away from uprights. Did the failed attempt of the dyson DC11 cann in the USA "stigmatize" dyson's reputation for canisters worldwide and particularly the DC11? Maybe. And quite possibly the reason for different model numbers and "names" for dyson canns. I always opined that dyson would reintro the cann in the USA and use the same model number (DC11) but assign it a name. I would have thought dyson would want to vindicate the fiasco of the DC11 in the USA. But to date, more than 2 years after dyson folded his tent on canisters in the USA and went home, the company and its founder have proven me wrong. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/13/07 at 12:18am Looks like it's going to be one heavy canister. 22 Pounds. http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-32539117719952_1939_43447970 |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/07 at 8:15am Lighter than the DC11 which weighed in at 24 pounds. Less airwatts too. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 03/13/07 at 6:40pm Trilobite The DC21 has a motor powered brush head and is for the US/Canada markets only (well so far), would be nice of Dyson to launch motor power brush head again on a canister model for the UK!! The DC19 and DC20 replace the DC08 and DC08TW models in the UK and Europe. The DC19 Origin replaces the DC08 Origin. I forgot to say the other day like the DC08 Origin the DC19 Origin doesn't have a wrap around hose! The DC20 Stowaway model replaces the DC08TW models all having the wrap around hose, stowaway hose! The top DC20 has the air flow powered brush head. Where as the DC21 in the US/Canada has a power head as standard on both models which is driven by a motor not air flow. The brush head on the DC21 is similuar to that used on the DC15 The Ball, DC17 and DC18 Slim! All 3 models DC19, DC20 and DC21 look like they are base on the DC08 model with the main difference (apart from a few different colour changes) is they all (well I know the DC19 and DC20 do I'm sure the DC21 does to!!) use Root 8 Cyclone Technology and not root 12 cyclone technology as the DC08 and DC08TW uses! The DC08TW in the UK is 300 airwatts using a 1400 watt motor, I know the DC19 and DC20 use the same motor but not sure on the airwatts! I would think they would be lower! Thats the only differences I know of so far! They could of used the digital motor or easy empty release bins like on the DC12 but they have choose not to! Not sure why!? Not sure why they have launched the DC19 and DC20 to replace both DC08 and DC08TW! Like you say they are just DC08's if you just quickly look at them! JD |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 03/13/07 at 7:53pm The Dyson DC12 is shown, briefly demoed by James, in the video clip that accompanies this news article :- http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_8046.aspx |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/13/07 at 7:59pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
The USA dyson DC11 is rated at 275 airwatts. The dyson DC21 Stowaway (Canada) is rated at 220 airwatts. As pointed out by Tiger21, the USA dyson DC07 is rated at 300 airwatts and the USA DC17 Absolute Animal is rated at 220 airwatts. Dyson maintains that "watts" is an irrelevant motor performance measurement because it gauges electrical usage. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JD on 03/13/07 at 8:13pm Look at the below web link http://www.dyson.ie/range/range_overview.asp?model=DC20&sinavtype=menu DC20 is on Irelands website. The airwatts is 280 for the DC20 where as the DC08TW is 300 on the UK web! The DC20 machine weight is 8.58kg where as the DC08 is 8.6kg! It also says on the allergy model it uses Root 7 Cyclone, I thought that was Root 8! As the DC07, DC14 and DC15 use Root 8 and only have 7 Small cylones and one big outer one just like the DC20! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Trilobite on 03/13/07 at 11:44pm There seems to be no real advance in Dyson's technology. Maybe they're repackaging surplus spare parts, to get rid of them! Have a look at this, and tell me what you think of patent infringement...! http://www.vax.co.uk/zero/index.php |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/14/07 at 2:08am Trilobite wrote:
Re: Patent rip off? Yes! I'm no lawyer, but certainly a near copy of Dyson’s multi-cyclones, shroud and fine dust collection bin. Re: new Dyson technology. This Stowaway has a pivotal/ball wand that should turn to a greater degree than the norm. Funny how Dyson and the retailers do not exploit this. - Invent something, make it better and then barely mention it? - Hmmm. I have both the DC15 Ball and the DC05 Motorhead canister - this new canister seems to be the best of both worlds. I found some Stowaway images and video here... (look close on some of the images, you can see the underside workings of the ball on the wand)... Images: http://www.flickr.com/photos/govacuum/tags/vdta/ Video: http://www.govacuum.us/blog/ |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/14/07 at 5:44am So no DC18 at the show in Las Vegas? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/14/07 at 8:37am The VAX prices are much less expensive than the other brand vacuum and the dirt bin capacities are larger. Good combinations to enhance "cyclonic" bagless vacuum competition. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/14/07 at 9:00pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Chris: Apparently no DC18 Slim. Only the DC21 Stowaway. It received a tepid reception at the VDTA even from dyson enthusiasts and admirers who didn't see much new in it from the DC04 save the electric PN. It may not measure up as a full sized canister in the USA market. More on the line of a compact canister for smaller living spaces and apartment dwellers. It will be interesting to see how HSN and dyson pitches the DC21 Stowaway: Lite and/or full size? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/15/07 at 11:07pm The DC19 and 20 have been launched in the UK http://www.dyson.co.uk |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/07 at 8:12am Dyson DC18 wrote:
And the air watts on both are 280. Vice the 220 air watts of the CAN and USA DC21. I suspect electric current differences (220 V and 110 V) are part of the reason for the differences in air watts but I don't know how much. A test of both the DC19/20 and DC21 using a "converter/transformer" would probably indicate comparative suction and cleaning of the UK and USA versions. If someone has the inclination, wherewithal, time and effort for the tests. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/16/07 at 10:26am 220,180,200,10, etc. Boy's the housing of the machine can only hold so big of a motor. The ratings can change by the size of the field. I would be willing to bet the static suction is the same on all of these machines. You would get a better feel for the machine by putting your hand over the hose end. This was mentined in c.r. years ago. So now that all this b.s. is put to rest,how about talking about longevity and parts availability. how many 40 year old dysons you see? O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/16/07 at 12:05pm old-timer wrote:
Jimmy the Pro: In the old days, if a vacuum's attachment hose end stayed glued to the palm of your hand with the vacuum running, it was called good suction. I see alot of DC07 models that are 2-3-4 years old "traded in" and sitting in vacuum stores' back rooms and salvage piles gathering dust. I see new dyson display models in big box stores with finger tabs, bins, and other pieces/parts cracked and broken. Not what one expects for vacuums that sell for $400 plus. I suspect others do too (see "junked" dysons in vacuum stores and broken dyson display models in big box retailers). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/16/07 at 12:11pm First DC21 on ebay for a nice price. Click Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dyson-DC21-Stowaway-Bagless-Canister-Vacuum-NIB_W0QQitemZ140096672665QQcategoryZ20615QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/17/07 at 8:06am Dyson DC18 wrote:
Difficult to say for sure until you take the vacuum through its home tests and trials. Examination and usage up close and personal is a must before a brand new vacuum buy. You never know the strengths and weaknesses of a vacuum/floorcare product until you try it out. On the other hand if the vacuum purchase is purely for aesthetic reasons, and it will be a display for conversation....then performance is irrelevant. But there will always be another one, be patient. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/17/07 at 8:40am old-timer wrote:
When was the last time that you saw a 40 year old Chevy Cobalt ? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/17/07 at 6:59pm I am not saying how many of anything at any age do you see. My observation is the bagless vacuum Dyson and all are not the type of cleaners needed. It is what they asked for thru the years. These machines have one big flaw. They are not easy for the consumer to maintain. Bagged vacuums is what the consumer understand and like. Take the bag out and replace and run. Bagless are clean and empty but remember to clean the filters, replace filters, and don't get the dirt in your face. If you forget to clean or change the filter shame on you. Service or replace. It is the vacuum cleaner independent that will care for the people, not the big box stores. They(BBS) don't repair or know how to teach the consumer. Grab and Go is all they care about. Get your money and bye bye until you need another one. Dyson may have some good ideas but until the consumer is taught and can understand how to maintain their machine it will be a hard road to take and keep their reputation. Bagless will be here for awhile but not as a dominating force in a few short years. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/17/07 at 9:36pm tiger21 wrote:
What you say may be truthful about most bagless vacs, however I notice that you singled out Dyson. They require less maintenance thatn the other bagless so you used a poor comparision. A quality bagged vacuum also has filters that must be cleaned/replaced, oh and remember the belts that need to be replaced on a regular schedule. Of course this is added money to the vac shop so they fail to tell you this. Vacuum maintenance is not rocket science as you want others to think. Most comsumers today are not interested in maintenance. The only vacuum maintenance that I have paid for in nearly 40 years of marriage is brushes in a Rainbow motor. THis was at the rainbow dealer. The Panasonic/Hoover shop tried to sell me a new motor or possibly a new vac. Yes, those independents are real honest men. BTW, you will not see a 40 year Cobalt for about 38 more years. Like Dyson, they have not been on the market for 40 years. Who wants to use a 40 year old vac anyway? I do not think they were designed fot modern carpet. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/18/07 at 4:36am Hello, I just purchased a Dyson DC21 Stowaway and here are a couple observations thus far. I am not a vacuum pro but will do my best to describe… The canister is the DC08 but with DC14/15’s cyclones. Bin and cyclone maybe weighing about 1/4lb less than the DC08’s cyclones. Believe it or not. The hose does not disconnect from the wand. Turns like the DC15 Ball. Much lighter feel though. Hose does not swivel at wand like most other Dyson canisters. Therefore when turning wand one must turn and lift hose up and off the ground, making what supposed to be a cool invention - a Ball on the wand - feel heavy. Even vacuuming using the hard surface brush was tiring. Canisters overall size is aprox. 15-20 percent larger than my DC05. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/18/07 at 4:51am HARDSELL wrote:
When was the last time that you saw a 40 year old Chevy Cobalt ?[/quote] Dyson has only been in business for himself for about 12 years or so. But anyone can view a Japanese vac that used Dyson's lisensed technology. Selling for about $2000 (If my memory serves me I think this was the price). Advertised as "still working" yr. 1985. http://www.bathhouse-restoration.com/Products/index.aspx?pID=393 |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/07 at 8:31am tiger21 wrote:
Hello Tiger21: I agree. My sense is Consumer Reports will address the concern (need for consumer education on bagless vacuums) in upcoming issues about bagless vacuum products, especially dyson because it is the most expensive on the market. The "junked" dysons that I see now only 2-3-4 years old are probably the result of consumers NOT performing the required maintenance on the filters and product neglect and abuse. Like consistently overfilling the dirt bin before dumping. What is the percentage? Hard to say. But education and an informed consumer are the critical components to a bagless vacuum's longevity. Especially dyson which is the most expensive bagless and sold primarily through the big box US retailers. Their sales staffs don't have the knowledge to do the correct product education. And unfortunately the bagless vacuum makers, dyson included, and the big box sellers push bagless vacuums to the uninformed public with the opposite approach: Claiming the vacuums are maintenance free. They aren't. Bagless require much more attention to maintenance than bagged vacuums. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/18/07 at 8:44am No Loss of Suction wrote:
Do you mind telling us how it vacuumed? Did you ever had a chance to use the DC11? Can you compare to two for us.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/07 at 8:47am HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I agree. And one of the reasons education for bagless vacuums' maintenance is so important. Especially for dyson if it is in it for the long haul. Rexair/Rainbow is THE most high maintenance vacuum ever made and sold in the USA, bar none including bagged vacuums. Most RB buyers do not know and are not properly educated to the need for after use maintenance to keep them working properly for many years. By the time they find out, it's too late. And due their cost ($2000) the vacuums end up sitting unused in the closet for 40 years. RB users buy another vacuum for daily use: Usually an upright. It's lack of use that gives RB its longevity (IMHO). Most users don't want to perform the necessary clean up of RB vacuums after they use them. So RB usage is low. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/18/07 at 11:40am On the other hand if the vacuum purchase is purely for aesthetic reasons, and it will be a display for conversation....then performance is irrelevant. But there will always be another one, be patient. Carmine D. [/quote] Give it 6 months and watch for falling prices. They might as well put it in wal-mart now.................... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/18/07 at 11:47am When was the last time that you saw a 40 year old Chevy Cobalt ?[/quote] WHATS A 69 Z-28 ,302 crossram car worth. The point i'm trying to get across is that for the asking prices[Your favorite brand]. The customer will never get his moneys worth.It's the best 89.95 vacuum in the world......... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/18/07 at 1:20pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I agree. And one of the reasons education for bagless vacuums' maintenance is so important. Especially for dyson if it is in it for the long haul. Rexair/Rainbow is THE most high maintenance vacuum ever made and sold in the USA, bar none including bagged vacuums. Most RB buyers do not know and are not properly educated to the need for after use maintenance to keep them working properly for many years. By the time they find out, it's too late. And due their cost ($2000) the vacuums end up sitting unused in the closet for 40 years. RB users buy another vacuum for daily use: Usually an upright. It's lack of use that gives RB its longevity (IMHO). Most users don't want to perform the necessary clean up of RB vacuums after they use them. So RB usage is low. Carmine D. [/quote] This forum always talks about the importance of buying a vacuum from an independent. I have the highest respect for the honest independents in the vac business and any other business. What I do not see on this forum is the independents discussing the one thing that keeps them in business. That has to be repairs and supplies. Bagless seems to have eliminated those necessities for an independent to remain profitable. Dyson was the first successful bagless and remains the only one that is worthy of purchase to date. When you and others speak of maintenance are you referring to repairs or preventative maintenance? I agree that it is easier to change a bag than to empty a bagless bin. Other than that the bagless requires no more maintenance than any bagged vac. Unlike other bagless (with pleated filters) the Dyson filters are simple to clean or replace. As I previously stated, bagged vacs also have filters and most must be replaced, not cleaned. Tell us about the belt changes required on most vacs. How often do brands other than Dyson require new belts? I have to agree that the RB requires added time to clean properly. That is not a repair. Any brand of vac or machinery will fail if not properly maintianed ( I prefer to say serviced). The more expensive the auto the more expensive the up keep. Seems like the mid priced Toyota or Honda will run as long as the expensive carsm BMW, Mercedes and others. Some are willing to pay the price for performance as opposed to longevity. The same could probably be said about vacuums. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/18/07 at 2:34pm Hello HARDSELL: I agree. And one of the reasons education for bagless vacuums' maintenance is so important. Especially for dyson if it is in it for the long haul. Rexair/Rainbow is THE most high maintenance vacuum ever made and sold in the USA, bar none including bagged vacuums. This forum always talks about the importance of buying a vacuum from an independent. I have the highest respect for the honest independents in the vac business and any other business. What I do not see on this forum is the independents discussing the one thing that keeps them in business. That has to be repairs and supplies. Bagless seems to have eliminated those necessities for an independent to remain profitable. Hi H.S. what aspect of the vacuum business do you want to opine with us. 1 Sales 2 service 3 parts 4repairs 5 pricing 6wholesale 7 retail 8direct sales Bring it on................. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/18/07 at 3:25pm old-timer wrote:
List the above in descending order of highest profit. 1. Service - I will consider this to mean preventative maintenance or routine tune up since service at an independent is no better than the big box (unless the customer is willing to fork out $). which brand requires most frequent service and why. Does service cost more for a botique (premium) brand. 2. Parts - Which brands consume the most parts and do parts for botique (premium) brands cost more 3. Repairs - Which brand requires more repairs and does labor cost more for a botique brand? 4. Pricing - Can the independent compete with big box on same quality vac? 8. Direct sales - I can't consider this a full service independent Please quote statistics as related to your business and not the stats of any publication. Please keep this related to uprights. What maintenance does Dyson require that others do not? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/18/07 at 4:05pm Hi H.S. service. related to uprights,or preventive maintainence.What we see is usually due to customer neglect or misuse, If the unit is under warranty we straiten it out for free,and give the customer a lesson on keeping the machine working right. most manufactures warrantees,do not cover any wearable item,belts,filters,bags,or machines that are used in a commercial enviroment.There are exceptions to this though.I could write a novel on it. parts. on the imported machines cost a lot more than the domestic brands.They seem to hold the parts back on purpose to keep the prices high.The profit margin on parts is very good,but the usual off the shelf domestic parts profit is 50%. repairs out of warranty,all depends whats wrong with it, your at the mercy of the service man or repair tech. a good flat rate person can make a very nice living on just repairs. As for us we are reasonable and honest on our repair prices,we want the customer to come back. can an indy compete with the big box stores.The answer to that is you can compete and if you know how to you can buy and even do better than them.[There's always some manufacturer,wholesaler,distributor that wants to unload non moving machines]. I'll stop for now... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/18/07 at 4:11pm old-timer wrote:
Thanks O.T. but nothing that you have said substantiates yours (or others) claims that Dyson is inferior to any brand. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/18/07 at 4:26pm Hi H.S. never said dyson was inferior to other bagless brand uprights,it has some nice features,but offers the consumer nothing as far as user benefits than other bagless uprights. It does work for a little while,then the novelty wears off. Everyone likes their new car when it's fresh,crisp and clean. But when it's time to fix or service it all of a sudden the it's maybe time to trade for something else. people can be very fickle ...... O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/18/07 at 7:01pm old-timer wrote:
You are correct. When the new wears off it is time for something else. I bought a self propelled Hoover WT. New wore off and I bought a Dyson. The new has not worn off since the first time I realized how much dirt the Hoover was leaving behind. Dyson is not inferior to any vac, bagged or bagless. Unless you do not want the consumer to know it has whooped yore a$$ in the market. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/18/07 at 8:41pm A couple of remarks have been made about the Dyson being picked on. My remark said Dyson and other bagless vacs. A vacuum gauge will not help determine how good a vac is. It will be just like the way Filter Queen salesmen and some Rainbow salesmen sold their (bagless) vac. Put a inches of water lift gauge on the cleaner when empty and show the gauge again when full and say look , " NO LOSS OF SUCTION" . This test was done for years. Static suction or inches of water lift will always be the same . Airflow is what is lost. I am always selling against Dyson and other bagless vacs. I have yet to see one that is easy to maintain and keep the consumer happy. One woman offered me her Dyson DC-14 for free after I fixed her bagged cleaner. As an Independent I teach my customers how to maintain their cleaners. When they learn everything they have to do to keep a bagless dust free they go to the bagged. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/07 at 8:56pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: The best and most authoritative source to date for reliability of dyson vacuums to other vacuums (bagged and bagless) is Which?; a consumer advocacy group that tests and reports on vacuums overseas. The results have been posted on the Forum many times in the past. For 8 consecutive years, dyson is rated the worse in reliability both for uprights and canisters (called cylinders). Miele, bagged canister vacuums, is consistently rated the best for reliability. SEBO (bagged uprights) too. Which? has no vested interest to rate bagged vacuums higher than bagless for reliability except for the integrity of its professional reputation. When I speak of vacuum maintenance, I refer to user performed upkeep like belts, bin dumping, replacing bags and cleaning/replacing filters, properly wrapping the cord after use. When I speak of vacuum service, I refer to professional repairs requiring industry experts. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/07 at 9:23pm HARDSELL wrote:
The same claim can be made for Rexair/Rainbow (in comparison to dyson and other bagless vacuums). The HOOVER Tempo bagged upright vacuum for $60 retail is IMHO (and Consumer Reports) superior to all the bagless vacuum brands on the market today. And many bagged brands and models too. The filtrette bags cost about $2 each and last for over a month of daily use. The belts cost $2 and need to be replaced every 6 months. Easy to do. And the pre-motor filter has to be cleaned/replaced on occasion. All can be done cheaply and easily by the users (maintanance). It even has a full bag indicator to tell the user when the bag has to be changed. And the TEMPO is made from the exact same materials as the $400 plus bagless models. And for $60 you get a rug height adjustment (cleans excellently on all the expensive high pile wool carpets) and a bright shining headlight. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/18/07 at 9:53pm Nothing has changed. Dyson remains the standard that all others are compared to. Hoover was predicted to sink Dyson. They should have kept the life boat. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/18/07 at 10:04pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hi again HS: Actually, if I recall correctly the pre/post dyson predictions were dyson was supposed to shut out all the other brands in 2 years; then 5 years; and then 10 years. We're all still waiting. Here in the USA and abroad. You're right on one account: Nothing has changed. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/18/07 at 10:57pm If Dyson is the STANDARD why would anyone want to buy cleaners that a carpet manufacture will void their warranty if you use one on it? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/19/07 at 6:51pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hi again HS: Actually, if I recall correctly the pre/post dyson predictions were dyson was supposed to shut out all the other brands in 2 years; then 5 years; and then 10 years. We're all still waiting. Here in the USA and abroad. You're right on one account: Nothing has changed. Carmine D. [/quote] I was referring to the predictions on this forum. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 03/19/07 at 6:55pm tiger21 wrote:
Because they clean better. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/19/07 at 10:34pm HARDSELL wrote:
Me too! ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 03/20/07 at 12:07am When looking at he power head I see it is not designed for our carpets . The carpets here have moisture barriers and don't let the air thru the carpet like they did in the 1960's. Dyson Power Head being electric is a step forward to better cleaning in that the brushes will move at a constant speed. Turbo powered don't stay constant due to the loss of airflow by the vacuums , Dyson included. If what I say isn't so , then why did Dyson change. They have continued to decrease power instead of increase. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/20/07 at 10:04am Dyson DC21 Onlie Video Click Here (http://www.bestvacuum.com/images/dysondc18sw/StowawayDemow.html) |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/20/07 at 1:10pm No Loss of Suction wrote:
Dave's going to be on today at 5PM eastern time. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/20/07 at 1:35pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Dave's going to be on today at 5PM eastern time. [/quote] Thanks. Please post more DC21 and DC18 video if or when you find or anything interesting Dyson is doing. Thanks. Dyson Dave will be on twice today - 5 and 7pm (est). I just learned of HSN's archived shows (1 week of shows archived). Shows here. (http://www.hsn.com/cnt/hsn_today/l24h/default.aspx?o=!LNPR&cm_sp=Global*LNTV*ProductReview) |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/20/07 at 2:38pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Nice video. Catchy "FREE 5 Year Warranty." Interesting approach. Buy the product and the warranty comes free! Saw the DC14 ad on "Dancing with the Stars" yesterday evening. With an American male's voice over. It's about time dyson upgrades the old commercial. It's lost its pizzaz! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/20/07 at 6:07pm Carmine, did you see the Dyson on HSN? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 03/20/07 at 7:37pm Hello, HSN has video (edited from the hour long show) just of the Stowaway presentation. Click > Play video, from this page. http://www.hsn.com/cnt/prod/default.aspx?pfid=237260 |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/20/07 at 7:43pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Yes, I did. I recorded it on the DVR. I was disappointed for a nationwide launch. Certainly not a show stopper. First, the HOOVER Spin Scrub demo (Julie is gem. HOOVER didn't have HOOVER reps like her when I was a dealer); then the hand mop (which I didn't understand coming right after the HOOVER Spin Scrub) and then the dyson DC21. Too short and rushed and the same old same old. Dave needs to update the dyson demo, especially for the DC21 Stowaway. The cat litter, pet hair, coffee grinds is loosing its pizzaz! I noted Dave's slick move to compact the cat litter down (away from the shroud) into the bin before he went over the pet hair. And he still had a hard time getting ALL the pet hair up even with several passes over the same spot and going slow to demo the PN head. This is not embedded pet hair either. He didn't walk over it to set it in. It's on the rug's surface. This squares with the Which? report of dyson's difficulty for getting up pet hair compared to other vacuums in the normal number of passes. $499 is a high price tag. And unlike the HOOVER Spin Scrub which sold over 500 in the short time on air (100,000 in total), HSN did not announce the number of DC21's that sold. BTW I own that HOOVER spin Scrub and use it regularly. It's worth its weight in gold. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/21/07 at 6:24pm I thought the demo was fine. But then again I don't like watching vacuum cleaners pick up cat little or coffee grounds. I prefer to see the vacuum demoed on different types of surfaces like low and high pile carpet, berber etc. And also see the features of the vacuum. By the way the DC21 is now featured on Dyson US website. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/21/07 at 7:24pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
Sounds exactly like Julie HOOVER demoed the FloorMate Spin Scrub: On hardwood floors, tile, vinyl, wet and dry spills, clean and dry all the different surfaces. Demo, dirty, dump, and redemo over and over. Sold 500 HOOVER Floor Mates in less than 15 minutes. That's over 33 sold per minute of air time. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/21/07 at 7:29pm I missed the Hoover demo. I have it on my DVR so I'll reply the Hoover Floormate demo. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/21/07 at 7:33pm Dyson DC18 wrote:
It would be an interesting exercise to count the number of words Dave used to pitch the dyson DC21 Stowaway versus the number Julie used in selling the HOOVER Floor Mate. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 03/22/07 at 12:01am Carmine, I think I want that Floormate but did you read all the bad reviews on HSN. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 03/22/07 at 7:53am Dyson DC18 wrote:
"Believe none of what you read and half of what you see "is the way the popular saying goes. My preference is to say believe half of what you read and see. The tricky part is deciphering the correct half! HSN has sold over 100,000 FloorMates. It is the best selling HOOVER product HSN sells. HOOVER probably sells millions of its Floor Mates every year. I sold the first HOOVER Floor washer in the late 50's. It was an excellent idea whose time had not come. Very few people bought and used them. But the ones that did, loved them. And HOOVER discontinued after a few years but supported them with parts (like suds bars) for decades. When HOOVER reintro'ed the Floor washer as the Floor Mate in 2000, it was $249 and not yet a good product (water bin too small, brushes and cleaning swath too small, too expensive). After several redesigns, HOOVER perfected it and the price came way down. It's an excellent floorcare product to have in a home's cleaning arsenal. About 75 percent of my house is Mohawk tile and I use the HOOVER Floormate regularly (just with warm tap water, no solution). I have the same model HSN sold but I have the hose and all the attachments. It works very well. And clean up of the machine, filter, and brushes is a snap. The HOOVER FM at $134 is a bargain basement price. You won't read my review on HSN. I didn't provide one. Most people who are happy with the product don't. But they tell their friends WHEN they are asked. I mentioned recently on the Forum that two of the cleaning products I see most often here in Sun City Aliante North Las Vegas (A Del Webb retirement community of about 3500 persons) are Orecks and HOOVER Floor Mates. People love them and tell me so WHEN I ask. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 03/22/07 at 5:37pm "Believe none of what you read and half of what you see "is the way the popular saying goes. My preference is to say believe half of what you read and see. The tricky part is deciphering the correct Carmine D. [/quote] Words of wisdom from the vacuum guru 8-) O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/07 at 4:33pm I previewed the dyson DC21 Stowaway canister. Sad. In 2 additional years after pulling the DC11, dyson still is prone to the same foibles. Terrible set up. Wands too heavy and bulky as is the power nozzle which flip flops all over with the ball facilitator wheel. Doesn't stand upright in the on/off position. Just falls over. Brush roll is horrible. Short cord. Small dirt bin. Mediocre cleaning on the rug, even low pile. Wands don't catch tightly in the power nozzle. Takes two and three tries bending over to lock by hand. At $499, it will go the same way as the DC11 in the USA. Sorry sales and soon forgotten. Heavy weighted with everything on board to stow. I have a perfect storage place: 6 feet under ground pushing up daisies. Is this the best that 500 dyson engineers can do in 2 years? Sorry group. Fire them. Overpaid and underworked. Maybe they'll have better results with their other concept products? Name one/two! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by guess_who on 04/12/07 at 5:39pm Hi Carmine, To all appearance, the Stowaway power nozzle is the same powered piece used on the upright Slim Vac. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 04/12/07 at 5:45pm Hello venson: You're right. The higher air-watts in the DC21 makes the power nozzle squeal (with the brush roll on) at a higher noise pitch than the DC18. Something I did not mention earlier. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/30/07 at 8:15am Has HSN, which launched the DC21 Stowaway in March 2007 on TV, "scrubbed" it from it's lineup? Take a look: No DC21. No match found for an HSN search and it's not shown as a recent TV seller, despite its appearance in March, just 2 months ago. Matt "mmc" can you provide assistance here? What happened? http://www.hsn.com/cnt/sf/default.aspx?sf=hm&attr=2699&cm_re=LN*Brand*Dyson&prev=hp!sf&kw=contentdyson&sourceid=1GAIN&rdr=1&cm_mmc=PaidSearch*Googbg*hm*contentdyson Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Professor K on 05/30/07 at 9:38am Here's a question for those of you who have seen the DC18 and DC21 in person; are the brush rolls that are used on those models as large in diameter as the DC17 brush roll, or are they the same size as the smaller DC15 roller? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson DC18 on 05/30/07 at 10:47am Professor K wrote:
The rollers on the DC18 are smaller.... |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by mmc on 05/30/07 at 11:35am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Very observant Carmine. HSN sold out of the DC21......more product on the way!! |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/30/07 at 2:51pm mmc wrote:
Thank you. Strange that HSN does not show as "sold out" and "back order" item. And comes up NO MATCH on a search. And does not show up as a recent TV sold item. HSN gives potential DC21 customers the impression it is gone and forgotten. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/30/07 at 4:21pm
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/30/07 at 4:43pm Wow....did it say 600 units in just 4 TV airings. Amazing. And it will be back for an encore sale this month! That must be an all time record for HSN floorcare/vacuum sales. Now, presuming none are returned within 30 days, then that's 1.2 units sold in just 3 short months by HSN for each of the 500 dyson engineers. Not too shabby! ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 05/30/07 at 5:56pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Mr. NegAtive, I forgot how you live to dump on Dyson and so I left room for you to spin. I never gave a time frame. My revised post now reads 4 airings over 2 days. 600 units sold over 4 airings. Not 1.2 units as you say. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/30/07 at 6:33pm Thank you No Loss: Now listen carefully and I will explain very slowly so even you can understand. Here goes. Get ready. If you divide 600 dyson units sold by HSN (regardless of the time period and TV airings) by 500 total dyson engineers, the result is 1.2 units. That's something that we old timers called basic mathematics before all the high tech HDTV and computers. While you are brushing up your basic math, you may want to have your computer do a spell check for the correct spelling of "negative." ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 05/30/07 at 8:51pm No Loss of Suction wrote:
Mr. Negitive, I forgot how you live to dump on Dyson and so I left room for you to spin. I never gave a time frame. My revised post now reads 4 airings over 2 days. 600 units sold over 4 airings. Not 1.2 units as you say. [/quote] Just remembet that those 500 Dyson engineers are still employed. Mr. Negative's favorite Hoover engineers were not capable of a design that would sink Dyson as he has always predicted. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/30/07 at 10:29pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hey HARDSELL: Who knows for how long these 500 dyson engineers will be employed? Why? Dyson can't price its products and has to give them away (after 9 months) to get them to market. And after 3 months of launch, its biggest nationwide USA retailer (HSN) sells the latest and greatest dyson canister (over 2 years in the making) at a rate of 1.2 units per engineer. ;) And then the retailer boasts its out of stock and takes a month to reorder (maybe). ;) Looks like you can take some lessons from the use of spell check too. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 05/31/07 at 6:03am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hey HARDSELL: Who knows for how long these 500 dyson engineers will be employed? Why? Dyson can't price its products and has to give them away (after 9 months) to get them to market. And after 3 months of launch, its biggest nationwide USA retailer (HSN) sells the latest and greatest dyson canister (over 2 years in the making) at a rate of 1.2 units per engineer. ;) And then the retailer boasts its out of stock and takes a month to reorder (maybe). ;) Looks like you can take some lessons from the use of spell check too. ;) Carmine D.[/quote] Morning Carmine, Hoover introduced 3 to 4 new models per year. No improvements, just new models. Dyson introduces quality and not quantity. Hoover is BUSTED. Dyson is alive and well. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/31/07 at 6:59am Gee, I thought this thread was about the dyson DC21 Stowaway canister and HSN. And its dismal sales. Well since you changed course, let's recap from my personal vantage point. In the last 9 months as a vacuum cleaner customer, I purchased 4 new HOOVER floorcare products: WT Supreme, HOOVER ZEE, the HOOVER Floormate, and the HOOVER Slider. I even gifted a Slider to a Forum member (I won't count that one. If I did count, the HOOVER Sliders would number over 12, all as 2006 Christmas gifts to friends and family). And I bought 3 new ORECK uprights: albeit 2 as gifts for family members, but still I purchased and paid. And I bought one lone DC07 pink which doesn't work for my needs. I gifted the dyson away and now it doesn't work for the donee's needs, so its getting returned. I'm trying to determine what to do with it now. Maybe trade on a RICCAR cann? ;) Maybe save as a collectable? Do you think James would autograph for me? Have you purchased more than one dyson (I believe it's the old and out of date DC07)? Like the DC21? Have you purchased any other other vacuum brands, even if not for yourself but as gifts? Care to share. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 05/31/07 at 9:08am Hi fellow vacuum cleaner dealers,how do you think hsn,feels about the dc21 on ebay that got bids all the way up to 375.00 and still has 1 day left. Of course we all know that it's dysons propaganda machine that has push bidders,to keep the price up and keep the real dealers at bay, I would hate to be a dealer rep right now,all day long nothing but complaints from the legit dealers.But i'm sure that they will be right on top of the bootleggers that sell on E-BAY,[AND IF YOU BELIVE THAT YOU DESERVE TO SELL THIS LOW QUALITY OVER PRICED I THINK IM A VACUUM CLEANER P.O.S.]. Good luck guy's. your going to need it.............. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 05/31/07 at 1:07pm old-timer wrote:
Hello Jimmy P/OT: 375.00 for a DC21 Stowaway. Is that British pounds, Euros and/or Monopoly money? ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 05/31/07 at 3:52pm Hi Carmine, no it's more than likely the usual E-BAY game,at the bid rate it should sell for over msrp.I see it's a no reserve auction[they start the bidding high],then dyson can gloat about how many hits the product got. In reality if a seller does not get to his reserve price,he has one of his buddies bid on it at the last moment,and the auction closes and quess what he for some unknown reason[ DOES NOT] get paid for it,known as a dead beat bidder.The winning bidder gets banned from ebay and 1 week later he's back on under a new paypal name and account. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by cprohman on 06/01/07 at 3:16pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
I could divide the number of apples in my neighborhood grocery by the numer of astronauts in the space program, and get a number, but would the result be useful for anything? I think not, unless the store closed and the astronauts took up residence there with apples as their only food source. What percentage of Dyson's engineers are working on vacuums? What percentage of those worked on the DC21? What percentage of the worldwide sales are accounted for by HSN? Will HSN continue to sell at this pace, or was this a one-shot deal? Add that information, and perhaps you might get something useful. In the absence of it, I have no idea if $300,000 in sales in 4 days is good or bad, nor how it relates to the cost of developing the DC21. I find it strange that keep knocking Dyson for employing engineers. Why and when did R&D and product development become a bad thing? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/01/07 at 6:01pm Carl: Really? 500 engineers? By dyson's own admission. With the primary product produced in 5 years a marginal performing upright vacuum cleaner. Remember the contra rotating washer. Sold 1900 units in 2004, not counting the returns. That is 3.8 washers sold for every dyson engineer employed. Knocking? Not at all. It's way too funny. And very sad. And also relevant for a business operation. Why? Read on my friend. The number of engineers employed by a company compared to the products produced and number sold are very relevant business numbers and costs. Why? In large part, it determines the products' overhead which in turn affects the costs of production. Higher costs of production mean higher product prices. Maybe excessively high. ;) Contrast dyson's 500 engineers with GM which just recently hired 400 engineers to turn ALL its vehicles in its car divisions into more efficient fuel and "green" worthy cars. Do you think the two company missions, products and employees are comparable? And both companies warrant the same number of engineers for the tasks at hand (dyson and GM)? Dyson even more in number? Or is this like comparing apples (for dyson) with astronauts (for GM)? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/01/07 at 9:26pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
How many engineers did Hoover employ? Must have been too many. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/01/07 at 10:57pm HARDSELL wrote:
How many engineers did Hoover employ? Must have been too many. [/quote] Hello HARDSELL: Dyson boasts one third of its employees are engineers. With 1500 employees, having 500 engineers is unbelievable. It's too high a ratio, not to mention overly costly. Dyson should pick the ONE best engineer for each of the countries its markets its vacuums, and fire the rest. And it would still be overengineered for a vacuum maker. Why does it takes 500 dyson engineers to make a dyson vacuum? BTW, one of the shortcomings of the dyson contra rotating washer: It's high price. Almost 2X as expensive as the best washers made and sold on the market. Why? Do you think the high price was a result of the huge demand for the dyson washing machine (as Carl says)? ;) cprohman wrote:
Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by tiger21 on 06/02/07 at 12:48am Has anyone seen or reported to Dyson Lovers that the ASA ( Advertising Standards Authority) ruled that because the filter needed occasional cleaning to maintain suction, the claim " No clogging. No loss of suction" was misleading. Dyson is to clean up their advertising. The ASA received 36 complaints from people who also said the "No Clogging, No loss of suction was misleading. All this reported on May 30, 2007 in London by Reuters. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by old-timer on 06/02/07 at 9:12am Hello people i just invented a new product and would like to know if there is a market where i can tell people how wonderful my product is and why it costs so much to market it,I believe this new revolutionary product will save you from the misery of cleaning your home. Of course my product is very well protected by patent rights[that we stole from someone else] :D. It comes with a no hassle return policy,if your not completely satisfied. And we have a 5 year marketing program,because we dont plan on being around after that,we will make it so hard for people to get their money back, and of course it will come with a 25% restocking fee,and the customer gets to pay the shipping. Sound interesting. Please just give us the chance to fleece you once,I mean change your home cleaning enviroment and see why this product will change your life forever. Please contact us at 1-800 scam,for more details..... our operators are standing buy to rip you off. O.T. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/02/07 at 12:27pm Looks like HSN has the DC21 Stowaway back online for sale for $499 with free shipping. With the caveat 'almost sold out" and only 9 left. I suspect HSN buys in lots of 12. And BTW, HSN doesn't have the customary dyson claim to shame (I mean sham, NO fame): The canister that "doesn't lose suction." ;D But the claim to shame (I mean fame) is still on the dyson USA Web Site for the DC21. Apparently "fake James" didn't get the the ASA ruling yet. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/02/07 at 1:20pm Wow, fun with spinning numbers. Let me try. Forbes says the Dyson group has made James Dyson's worth 1 billion $. Divide that by 500 engineers and that is $2 million profit per engineer. Maybe they should hire more research and develpment. Cutting research and development as suggested despite the fact they can afford it seems awfully shortsighted. Dyson has made a point of commiting a large percentage of profits to R and D. I would bet there are thousands of former Hoover employees wishing some past corporate boards would have been making the same commitement to research and development. Carmine, They have taken and are maintaining the #1 position in Marketshare by dollars by doing everything you say is wrong. They still have the #1 position in Best Buy 2 years after you said they would be out of the store. James Dyson revels in what he calls "wrong thinking", at what point to you start to realize the years worth of daily doom and gloom on his products and the guy may have been right and perhaps you may have been wrong? If you want a long term succesful business where better to put large portions of profit other than R and D? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/02/07 at 1:34pm Hello My Friend JimB: So was Regina NUMBER ONE on Main Street and Wall Street right up until the time it went belly up and its CEO and CFO went to jail for fraud and cooking the books. I believe Forbes reported on Regina too several times in the 1980's including it's swan (farewell) song. Regina was a publicly traded company so its Officers hoodwinked the SEC and its outside auditors FOR SEVERAL YEARS with false numbers and filings. Unlike dyson, which is privately owned, and doesn't have to reveal any financial data (even to Forbes magazine which probably merely is reporting what dyson tells it). It never ceases to amaze me how gullible and trustworthy most people (even those purporting to be business smart) are to deceiving numbers, bad data, misinformation, and outlandish product claims (Global Crossing, Enron, Tyco, MCI, Arthur Andersen etc, etc, etc.). Like the dyson claim to shame (I mean fame): "The only vacuum that never loses suction. " You care to comment on that false claim (and wrong thinking)? Or did you miss the ASA news report and ruling agianst dyson? Jimmy the Pro/OT has been saying the dyson claim of NEVER LOSES SUCTION is false and "wrong thinking." For the past 5 years and still. ASA finally listened after 36 dyson "fooled" vacuum buyers complained after being sucked in by the dyson hype and hawking. That's more than all the complaints HOOVER/CPSC received for the WT switches over a half dozen years of WT sales. And it cost HOOVER 3/4 million dollars in fines. Go figure. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by cprohman on 06/03/07 at 3:12pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
This is an interesting comparison because I note that GM has been losing market share for years, and has now dropped from the #1 position worldwide. My personal opinion is that the main cause of this steady erosion has been their engineering department. Your math continues to be non-sensical, taking a little factoid here, one there, with no real relevence to anything. As you point out, Dyson is continually developing products other than vacuums, including washers, hand dryers, etc. Many of the 500 engineers are no doubt not involved with vacuums. Second, as I pointed out, how does the total number of engineers employed (including ones working on other products), divided by the number of units of one model, sold by one outlet, during one short period of time, tell you anything? The answer is, it doesn't. Maybe the DC21 will succeed, maybe it won't. Either way it won't be because of how few or how many sold on HSN, nor will it be related to how many engineers Dyson has working on the Airblade, or other new, product. The bottom line when judging the performance of Dyson as a company is "are they profitable"? I would have to guess that the answer is clearly "yes", so your strange mathematical manipulations seem rather spurious. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/03/07 at 7:04pm cprohman wrote:
Not from a dyson product buyer's perspective. It's whether the product is properly priced for its performance and the market. Or if the prices are inflated to compensate for the abundance of non-contributing high priced labor. Like the high GM prices of its cars because of the union workers' wages and benefits. ;) From a business point of view, you have to measure the output of the enginers in terms of the products they send to market. We can't credit/blame them with the root technology. That belongs to James. (Though the recent ASA ruling will put a huge smear on dyson's image). But the gang of 500 get the credit/blame for the DC11, DC15, DC16, DC17, Contra rotating washer, and the DC21. The only glimmer of hope is the DC18 dyson-lite and its overpriced (by your own admission). All these products fall way short of the mark, bar and standard that a company with 1/3 of its employees as engineers (500) should (and must) attain. You can carry the deadwood for a time but that time is starting to run out for dyson. Ask all dyson retailers how new dyson sales are from this year to last year and they'll all tell you the same thing. Falling off precipitously from previous years and for new dyson products. ALL have told me that. Doesn't sound authoritative and official but I'm sure it's honest and true. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/03/07 at 10:52pm So going to stick to your guns and say Dyson should cut thier Research and Development budget. Incredibly shortsighted, I just don't understand your view in business at all. The company makes a commitement to putting a large portion of profits to R and D and you say they should cut that budget and do what with the profits? I just don't think I have ever heard a company criticized for spending profits on research and development. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/07 at 6:34am JimB: It's a business measurement called a "cost benefit" analysis. Dyson should try using it rather than calling it "wrong thinking." If it did the result would be 500 engineers vice 5 underwhelming vacuum products in 5 years and one vacuum (the latest DC21 cann) that has dismal sales after 3 months and the dyson AirBlade that has no sales after 9 months. So the company is giving the AirBlades away. Probably because there is such a huge demand for the device. ;) Or is your/dyson's answer to the underwhelming products to hire more engineers? ;) Now that's "right thinking!" Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by cprohman on 06/04/07 at 12:12pm JimB wrote:
Carmine explained his perspective on another thread. He is a former cost accountant, and his perspective is typical of cost accountants. To cost accountants engineering is simply another cost to be measured and budgeted. Many companies do very well with that kind of thinking, and it is quite appropriate in stagnant, non-innovative industries. At the other extreme, some companies think of engineers not as costs to be compared to past or current sales, but as investments in the future. The modern hitech sector would be examples of that thinking. For example, Hewlett-Packard has a mission statement for their engineers that they mission is to make every product in their line obsolete within 18 months. In these sectors, staying a step ahead of the competition, and reaping the profit from early sales before prices fall is the key. Vacuums have for a long time been a reletively stagnant, non-innovative industry, so Carmine's approach may be appropriate. It remains to be seen if a large investment in engineering can pay off over the long term. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/07 at 12:59pm Carl: My perspective is typical of all business leaders who are trying to stay in business for the long haul. If you don't measure and cost out your labor charges, materials cost, and overhead expenses you will never know what it takes to be profitable. One of the reasons that engineers make terrible business leaders. Dyson fits the mold. ;) Remember what happened to the high-tech sector in 2000: The bubble burst and the stock prices tanked. Why? Failure to measure and control costs. Many firms, including Hewlett Packard, suffered terrible financial losses for several years and some still (Dell was a high flyer with stock prices exceeding $100 a share. It just recently made a deal with Wal*Mart to sell its computers and move away from its direct sale strategy. Nothing new for Dell. It tried this strategy before in 1992 with Sam's Club Stores. It failed. Why? Excessive inventory costs. Oh no. Sounds like cost accounting again.) And they always bring in the COST ACCOUNTANTS to make them profitable again (turnaround is the business name for it). ;) How? By measuring and reducing costs and expenses. Why? To compensate for profits falling off on high tech products as they saturate the market and their prices are reduced to stay competitive. ;) Remember the words of Columbia Business School's Bruce Greenwald: "In the long run, everything is a toaster. " I will add especially vacuum cleaners that lose their suction and clog. What is meant by this? All dazzling innovations end their days as commodities, products that anyone can make and that are bought only according to their prices. Dyson vacuums fit the mold. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by cprohman on 06/04/07 at 3:29pm Carmine, I don't disagree that with any product you reach the point of diminishing returns, and it becomes, as you describe it, "a toaster". Once it is "a toaster", cost control becomes critical. Computers were once innovative, but have become commodities, so the ability of engineering to add value becomes limited, and cost control gains in importance. Vacuums have been "toasters" for a long time, with very little difference between vacuums of 50 years ago and vacuums of today (especially at Air-way). Still, some companies are always trying to break out of that cost-control-only mode with innovative engineering. Dyson has their cyclones, and their ball. Miele has their lightweight, stylish cases and Vortex motor. Tacony has their "Hydra" with two suction motors. Hoover had their "Z". One problem with measuring engineering is that in order to know if you made a good investment you have to compare current engineering costs to future sales. If the current engineering investment pays off, it will pay off in terms of future sales, not current ones. Thus we may not know for several years if the current engineering staff is worthwhile, or a waste of money. I do agree that at some point the Dyson line will no longer seem "innovative", and they will over time become "toasters". As that happens, engineering on vacuums will diminish, prices will fall, and cost control will become the key. Note, though, that if the engineers are productive, they could simply move to other areas, whether it is washers, hand dryers, wheelbarrows, or whatever. Thus, at Hewlett-Packard, they continue to develop innovative products, even as older ones such as computers and ink-jet printers become toasters. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/04/07 at 6:29pm Carl: The top business leaders and companies, regardless of the industries and products, always know their costs and the "bottom line." Engineers don't. Dyson fits the mold of an engineer runned company. Over, over, over weighted in engineers by any business standard applied. Look at IRobot. Lost money for 13 consecutive years on robotic bomb detection devices. Why? Alot of R&D poured into the bomb detection robots with limited market application. Finally hit it big, with of all things robotic vacuums, a spin off of the bomb robots. Trumped dyson with his 500 engineers who was talking about robotic vacuums for 2 years while IRobot was selling them in the USA. Dyson launched in April 2002. Rhomba in October 2002. And IRobot priced the vacuums affordably so every household can have at least one. Then went public in 2005. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/05/07 at 11:50am Maybe iRobot will have a good quality product in time, but it's current products are little more than robotic floor sweepers, somewhat removed from anything approaching a 'proper vacuum'. If Dyson ever enters this market, they have promised that they won't launching until it's seen as a proper replacement. In other news, I notice that DC21 motorhead is now listed on the Dyson UK web site. http://www.dyson.co.uk/ |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/05/07 at 4:30pm Hello M00seUK: The iRobot sweepers get decent ratings from Consumer Reports (the highest beating out $1500 Karcher and $1800 Electrolux) compared to the higher priced similar products' competition. Also has a longer run time (70 minutes vice 20 and 50 for the others). And Rhoomba buyers appear to be satisfied with the IRobot performance for the price $150-250. I believe you said (I could be wrong) dyson had to get moving on the robotic vacuum or risk losing the robotic vacuum market completely. I believe (again if I'm correct) you gave a due date for dyson by End Of Year 2006. Have you revised your schedule? And care to guestimate a price that would be competitive in the UK/USA market for dyson's robotic (if and when it does happen). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/09/07 at 10:05am The Roomba has certainly established a market; a robotic floor sweeper for folks that are after a fun way to surface clean their carpets. Home robotics have long been popular, I used to have a big interest myself when I was younger. I begged my parents to get me one of the Tomy robots in the late 80s for an x-mas present. Alas, it was too expensive at 100 GBP! So to say, many people are buying them as a toy, with a slight practical function, so that they can reprogram them for other functions. If I recall correctly, iRobot are releasing a model exactly for this purpose. But how many people are using the Roomba in place of their regular vacuuming? If they are, they're a little deluded in my opinion. How about for a quick maintenance clean, say before visitors arrive at your home? Check this comparison video :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtC0kI4_dKg Personally, I'd rather use an upright for a couple of mins, that wait on the bash and crash method of a robot cleaner. There's a huge market in a robot cleaner that work well, that is, as the sole vacuum in a household. However ineffective the Roomba might be, it has captured people's imagination and has no doubt returned a tidy profit to iRobot, which they can invest in to R&D. Dyson's patents make promising reading, it appears that like everyone else at this time, they're finding it tricky to provide an effective yet practical power source be it mains or battery. Dyson also have the luxury of a steady revenue stream from their existing cleaners with which to invest in to development. While that remains the case, they don't have to launch into the robotics market until they either reach their goal or a credible competitor launches a product. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/09/07 at 3:36pm Good match up on YouTube between the Rhoomba IRobot and dyson DC18. ;) My sense is at some time in the future IRobot will have the deep cleaning robotic vacuum to market at affordable prices. And with a target audience [current IRobot users] ready and willing to upgrade to a deep cleaning robotic vacuum, they should do well with higher priced product sales on the new robotic vacuums. This in my view gives the edge to Rhoomba and IRobot over dyson now and in the future. Why? The obvious reasons you know. Market recognition and leadership for the IRobot products with a core of current robotic vacuum users. Plus it's much quicker and easier to fashion a better cleaning robotic vacuum cleaner to the existing robotics technology at a higher price for successful consumer sales. Vice inventing a brand new and better robotic that can be matched to an existing vacuum cleaner at a higher price. (IMHO the primary reason dyson has been unsuccessful to date to market a robotic vacuum). Especially since IRobot concentrates all efforts and R&D strictly in robotics. Dyson on the other hand steers in too many unrelated directions (no doubt the reason for/because its 500 engineers). IMHO dyson misses the target for having a first rate best in class product in any category for its products now. Rhoomba and IRobot does for robotic vacuums. The recent vacuum competition has even overtaken dyson in the bagless vacuum categories, its strongest market over the last 5 years. Despite what some may say to the contrary on this Forum, if you query the top senior level leaders in the largest 2000 companies today, the majority will rank Competition as the NUMBER ONE risk (on a scale of 1-10 with 1 the highest and 10 the lowest) to ongoing organization success. Technological Innovation gets ranked 8th with Legal matters and Human Resources as 9 and 10. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/10/07 at 11:20am Carmine, I'd disagree on your point of fundamental technologies. The robotics industry is well established with regards to skills and R&D. A steady supply of graduates enters the job market each year. Many a startup are specialising in robotics, with a view to licensing their methods or being purchased by a bigger player. While sub-contract designers for vacuum technologies (fluid dynamics, etc) do exist, there's a lot less supplier / talent to choose from in this area. Personally, I'd much rather be in the position of a manufacturer with good, well-researched vacuum cleaner technology looking for robotics, than the other way around. For this reason LG, who appear to now be introducing credible bagless canisters, would be a good candidate for future robotic cleaner, with their vast consumer electronics background. http://www.lge.com/products/model/detail/v-r4000.jhtml From a brand point of view, I'd rather anyone other than iRobot. While undoubtedly the most popular brand, they also have a sizeable reputation for being a supplementary cleaner. If they were to launch a 'proper' robot cleaner, could the successfully pitch this against the negative connotations of the previous models? If Dyson was to release robotic cleaner in the near future, they'd be in quite a strong position because of their brand, was has become quickly established. Their technology is widely promoted for offering unique benefits over other bagless clearers. They've also carved quite a reputation for being a plucky innovator. You were asking about a suggestions price at retail for a domestic cleaning robot? Well, as ever, once a manufacturer reaches that holy grail, they'll be looking to get the biggest return possible on their vast R&D spend. I'd imagine they'll pitch it towards folks with high disposable income. The type of person who already employs a house cleaner or two. Once the early adaptor market has been 'served' and the competitors have tooled up to rush out their latests, the price will gradually drop to an acceptable level. I'd say you'd be looking at no more than $800 to start getting a wider acceptance. Then it's as many as you can crank off the production line to supply demand. On a slightly different topic, I wonder if iRobot have plans to launch a commercial sized version of the scuba? I'm sure it would be perfect in many retail environments, if it had the capacity to clean the shop floor overnight at a price to match the existing 'sit on' commercial floor cleaners. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by No Loss of Suction on 06/10/07 at 3:35pm M00seUK, Have you seen Dyson's latest robotic patent filing? No batteries on this one. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20060161318.pdf …if the link does not work go to freepatentsonline and register to view patent application. Application. # 20060161318 James Dyson has said he is working on a second generation robotic vacuum and hopes to launch soon. This was 6-7 months ago that he said this. No Loss of Suction |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/10/07 at 4:25pm M00seUK et dyson fawners: With words anything is possible for dyson. Dyson can invent a vacuum that will go to the moon and back [with words]. Just don't ask dyson to actually do it. It's just words. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/10/07 at 6:57pm No Loss of Suction wrote:
Yay, this was discussed on the forum some time back. Dyson aren't the first to patent using a power cable on a robotic floor cleaner; their own patent application references other people's patents towards cable management. Although theirs appears more straight-forward and inexpensive in comparison. Who can tell with Dyson? They might launch in the next 12 months, they might have canned the idea 6 months back. Such is the life of R&D projects. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/11/07 at 7:42am M00seUK wrote:
It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby! Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/11/07 at 1:21pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
........ |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/11/07 at 7:38pm M00seUK wrote:
........[/quote] M00seUK and dyson fawners: When IRobot launched the Rhoomba robotic sweeper in October 2002, the Forum was already abuzz about a dyson robotic that was supposed to revolutionize household cleaning. That was almost 5 years ago. Now there's criticism from dyson fawners for the IRobot [Rated NUMBER ONE IN ITS CLASS AND BEST ROBOTIC VACUUM by Consumers Reports] as "just a surface cleaner." And musings if a better IRobot will ever be in the offing. And of course more and more "dyson-speak" about the dyson robotic vacuum. Even a caveat from Sir James himself that a dyson robotic will never launch until it's the best there is. Well it's been over 5 years and counting. Where's the "better" dyson robotic vacuum? It's easy to impugn IRobot for "perceived" shortcomings. What does dyson have to compare? What dyson product has a run time of 70 minutes? Not even close. Just more dyson talk. Dyson speak in ample supply and abundance. Unless and until there is a robotic dyson vacuum on the market AND IT'S BETTER than ALL the competition, dyson can't speak let alone criticize. Dyson can't "talk" down THE MARKET LEADER with over 15 years of successful proven robotics' technology. Unless it's just the same old dyson-speak. Dyson-speak HAS ABSOLUTELY NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND PROOF OF A BETTER PRODUCT (AFTER 5 YEARS OF DYSON-TALK). NADA. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/11/07 at 10:03pm "What dyson product has a run time of 70 minutes? ______________________________________ The DC07 will run over 70 minutes. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/11/07 at 10:08pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
It takes 9 months for a woman to have a baby! Carmine D. [/quote] Dyson could choose to introduce a POS like Hoover did every month or two. They would rather introduce quality than to go downd the drain like hoover. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/11/07 at 10:57pm HARDSELL wrote:
HELLO HARDSELL: Dyson would have you talk about it for 5 years on the Forum with nothing to show except words: Dyson speak. You agreed that dyson "steered in too many directions" and lost its focus [vacuums]. I kept the PM and can post it for you and the Forum if you disagree now and/or your memory fails. Get on topic my friend. We're talking about the IRobot robotic vacuum. And dyson's lack thereof, despite years of dyson speak to the contrary. We're not talking about HOOVER. Albeit a sidebar, the thread theme right now is how IRobot upstaged dyson in the robotic vacuum market. HOOVER never filled this Forum with idle misspeak about grandiose plans for a robotic vacuum. But dyson fawners did and still are. For years now. The dyson speak about robotics is so repetitious it's laughable. News Flash: Saying year after year that dyson is launching a robot vacuum doesn't really make it true. In fact just the opposite. After 5 years and all the talk, no one believes it. Here's the truth. Dyson has nothing to offer in robotic vacuums AFTER 5 years. Zilch. Nada. Just the banter of empty meaningless words by dyson fawners on this Forum. And dyson can't impugn the world's leading robotics company which is selling MILLIONS of IRobots every year. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Trilobite on 06/13/07 at 10:57pm I wouldn't brag about Irobot's machines, if I were you. They have intrinsic design flaws, according to another forum. (Try www.roombareview for other peoples trials and tribulations). I myself have the original Roomba silver UK version, and I think it is rather poor compared to the Electrolux Trilobite, which has a far better build quality. My brother has the UK Roomba 'Discovery-type' model, and it is a slight improvement over the original, but is still left wanting in the design department. The Roombas are very messy machines to empty; they tend to gather fluff in inaccessible places; the brushes have high failure rates; and there have been battery issues. My sister has the Koolvac (a clone of the original Roomba), and it is as bad as the Roomba. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/14/07 at 7:15am Hello Trilobite: Not bragging about the IRobot performance. It's adequate for the purpose and usage. And the company does not make any outlandish and false claims about the products. I will defend the company and the products. Why? IRobot was the FIRST TO MARKET FOR ROBOTIC VACUUMS in the USA and at one heck of a low price. The singlemost revolutionary vacuuming product in history. Period. And every household can afford one, if wanted. MILLIONS sold and still. Can it be better? Of course it can. What product in its very early stages of infancy can't be made better? (Didn't it take James 5,174 prototypes for his dyson?) Will IRobot get better? I think that's a safe bet. IRobot is the best on the market in comparison to the others. I don't say so. Consumer Reports does. Here's the review: March 2006: "The IRobot cleaned as well as Karcher (Roboclean RC3000), which costs nearly 5 times as much. Its edge brush also made it best among robots for edge cleaning, though you still pay less for many more capable, full sized vacuums." Unless and until something better for the same price and/or slightly more (the Electrolux Trilobite EL520A is about $1500-$1800 with a run time of 50 minutes and weighs 12 pounds vice the IRobot for $300 with a 70 minute run time and 6 pounds), I rate IRobot first in its class, despite the crticism and shortcomings. And the competition has had 5 years to come up with a better robot. The problem with some of the buyers and users of these IRobots is they have high expectations for the performance. They expect the same results as a full sized vacuum with human supervision. Good luck. These are high hopes. They are absolutely and unequivocably unrealistic. It's easy for all the critics to impugn IRobot and the company when they have nothing better to compare with it. Produce and market a robotic competitor, then let's discuss it. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/14/07 at 10:02am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
When I look at the title it looks to me to be a dyson new product thread. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/14/07 at 10:23am JimB wrote:
When I look at the title it looks to me to be a dyson new product thread.[/quote] Hello JimB: Maybe you should read in and not out of context. Or would you like a definition of sidebar? ;) Carmine_Difazio wrote:
HELLO HARDSELL: Get on topic my friend. We're talking about the IRobot robotic vacuum. And dyson's lack thereof, despite years of dyson speak to the contrary. We're not talking about HOOVER. Albeit a sidebar, the thread theme right now is how IRobot upstaged dyson in the robotic vacuum market. Carmine D. [/quote] Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by cprohman on 06/14/07 at 3:26pm Or maybe jim should give you a definition of "on-topic". ;D In any case, continuing the off-topic "sidebar", is the IRobot a vacuum? I really haven't looked at it, but I thought it was just a sweeper. Does it actually generate suction? If so, how much (CFM, lift, Airwatts)? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/14/07 at 3:55pm cprohman wrote:
Hello Carl: Or maybe JimB more appropriately could have directed his admonishment to all the posters who engaged in the sidebar, not just me. Starting with HARDSELL who was not only off topic but was off-topic on the sidebar. ;) As far as the answer to your question, its been covered on the Forum. You were probably on hiatus. You snooze you lose. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Trilobite on 06/14/07 at 6:59pm cprohman wrote:
The Roombas are primarily motorised sweepers, supplemented by a low powered suction unit. The machines basically flick the larger debris into a tray, and the suction unit deals with the fine stuff. Hair and fluff tends to get wrapped around the 'bottle brush' style brush, which has to be cleaned regularly. They navigate by crashing and bashing into items of furniture. The Roombas are fine upon bare floors and short pile carpets, but hopeless on deeper pile carpets (the brush motors strain). Fluff also gets above the floating brush carriage/deck - in beside the motors, electronics, and rotating shafts. At least the Trilobite machine was designed by a bonafide vacuum cleaner company, and can work on deeper pile carpets; uses ultrasonic sonar as the main detection system (tactile bumping is a backup). The suction port is in the vicinity of the agitator cavity, so dirt released by agitation is efficiently caught. The agitator has only rubber inserts: I would redesign it to incorporate a bristle-brush insert too. The original Roombas used the 'dirty fan' vacuum method: the fine dust was sucked into the fan and blown into the filter box. Rather dusty, to say the least, and fluff tended to get caught in the fan. The current models use the 'clean fan' method: a filter prevents the dust entering the fan. With regard to the Karcher (also sold in Europe as a silver Siemens), the off-loading of the collected dust is a very sensible idea. I wish all robots could do that trick. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/14/07 at 7:34pm Industry Narrative about the IRobot: "The Roomba Robotic Floorvac has changed the way people clean their homes. It's the number one selling robotic vacuum in the world. Now, the next generation of Roomba's are here: the Roomba Discovery Robotic Floorvacs. The Roomba Discovery line is designed to make cleaning more efficient and easier than using a traditional upright vacuum. A Roomba vacuums most home floor surfaces including hardwood, laminate, linoleum, low-pile carpet, medium-pile carpet, tile, slate, and other hard surfaces. Roomba is not designed for shag carpet. Roomba's compact shape (it measures 3.5 inches tall and 13 inches in diameter) allows it to clean completely under beds, couches and other furniture, so Roomba cleans more of your floor than standard uprights. " As I said in a previous post, IRobot does not make outlandish and false claims about product performance. And a litany of customer reviews of the IRobot (averaging 4.5 out of 5) in association with smart-reviews and amazon.com. http://www.smart-review.com/reviews/roomba4210-review.html Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/14/07 at 8:08pm A usual Carmine is doing the side step. My point was that Dyson does not put a product on the market just to beat the competetion. Dyson is the competition. Hoover went busted trying to compete. Regardless of the product the principle is the same. Quality before quantity. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/14/07 at 9:56pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: And as usual you equate high prices with quality. You must be Japanese! An assessment of the dyson products, vacuums and others, in the last 5 years proves the two are mutually exclusive for dyson. Why? Dyson scatters its efforts on an overloaded pipeline of ideas and products. In doing so, dyson does not measure the "effort to benefit" trade off on many of the products its brings to market. Marginal products at best. Not indicative of a company which claims to be one of quality. The result: The DC11 canister for $499. Pulled off the market in 9 months and followed after more than 2 years (much too long a time) with the DC21 canister (the subject of this thread). The contra-rotating washer. Priced at 2-3X the price of the best washers on the market. Sold only 1900 of these in 2004 when it was finally pulled off the market. The DC16 Hand held for $149 with a 3-5 minute run time. The dyson AirBlade. Over 9 months on the market now and dyson doesn't have them even priced. Most recent news has dyson gifting them away to vendors to spark interest. Should I go on? Here's dyson's problem: Too much innovation is a bad thing not a good thing. Reducing the number of products and focusing efforts speed introduction of new products. It's the time tested theory of congestion and delay. If a freeway is getting congested, do you load more cars on the ramp in the hopes that people will go faster? Or should you try to take some cars off? Are you with me? If you are then you know the business concept and practice of "Fast Innovation." Dyson and his fawners think this is heresy when applied to designers and creative types who launch new products. That's why dyson spends R&D on useless ideas and unprofitable products that fail. While the dyson competition flourishes. According to a 2007 survey of 150 CEO's, CFO's and senior level executives from among the top 2000 companies in the world, competition is the NUMBER ONE RISK to organizations. Innovation was all the way down at number 8. Dyson needs to apply the simple time tested "effort to benefit" tradeoff. Then it won't have so many marginal projects stopping it from doing best on the big ones. Then and only then will dyson be a quality product company. And not a bull pen for 500 artful engineers. IMHO. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/15/07 at 10:41am We get that you disagree with the dyson business model preferring the old hoover type model run by the bean counters as opposed to letting research and developement lead where it may. I also believe you fail to think of this centuries global marketplace and have "US only" blinders on. To refer to products that are succesful in other countries as failures because an international company does not currently offer them here does not recognize how todays worldwide marketplace works. The dyson airblade is said to be not available to purchase here until fall with increasing PR leading up to that. Not surprisingly, to say it has been in the marketplace for 9 months when they are not even available for purchase yet is less than honest. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/15/07 at 10:47am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Simply put, I think this is at the core of how we disagree in business. We will have to keep watching dyson to see who is right. They are doing quite well so far though. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/15/07 at 12:39pm JimB wrote:
Simply put, I think this is at the core of how we disagree in business. We will have to keep watching dyson to see who is right. They are doing quite well so far though. [/quote] Hello again my good friend: Of course, I believe you with you being my friend and all. But for others who may not, can you (or other dyson fawners) provide verifiable authoritative evidence to support your claim that dyson is doing quite well? Not just your say so and hearsay? Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/15/07 at 1:00pm JimB wrote:
Hello again Good Friend JimB: The "fast innovation practices" have been revived in 2005 by a group of high powered business consultants who bail out "artsy fartsy" companies run by designers and engineers. I'd be happy to PM you with the specifics since this thread is about the new DC21 canister. True however that the theories and practices are derived from equations based on European mathematicians from the 1930's. Which I should also say have passed the test of time and operation for many manufacturing companies over the years. I never ever supported the HOOVER business model on this Forum and/or others. Do you have any evidence of that beside saying so. In fact, I made it very clear on this Forum and others several times that HOOVER's strategy in the 1960's to kow tow to the big box retailers at the expense of the independents (as dyson does) was "wrong business thinking." And it led to many of its problems. However, I do support the ORECK business model. You must have the two confused. ;) I hope you take the time to read TurboAce's post on the dyson airblade. Very insightful. I hope you have not purchased your air blade yet. Not before you read a a real story of the product's usage and effectiveness. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/19/07 at 11:40am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Simply put, I think this is at the core of how we disagree in business. We will have to keep watching dyson to see who is right. They are doing quite well so far though. [/quote] Hello again my good friend: Of course, I believe you with you being my friend and all. But for others who may not, can you (or other dyson fawners) provide verifiable authoritative evidence to support your claim that dyson is doing quite well? Not just your say so and hearsay? Carmine D. [/quote] Happy to help! DYSON LEADS SALES Leading makers of upright vacuum cleaners for consumers in revenue: Dyson 25.2% Bissel 15.3% Hoover 12.8% Eureka 11.9% Dirt Devil 10.0% Kirby 8.9% Oreck 5.8% Kenmore 5.4% Euro-Pro 1.0% For three months ending in April Source: NPD http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/manufacturing/2007-06-17-dyson-usat_N.htm?csp=34 |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/19/07 at 4:54pm Hello JimB: Do you have the NPD link which is the source of the numbers in your post? I'd like to see the narrative and the numbers in context. Why? First, you don't say if the sales revenue data is as of April 2007? Or some other year? And second, you don't say what constitutes a sale: Is it counted as a shipment to the retailers and/or a bonafide end sale to customer? And the sales price? Is it the actual cost/actual selling price to the customer (after discounts) and/or the MSRP? Third, you don't say the sources and methods that NPD used to collect data? Finally, is NPD counting world wide sales? Or just USA? Usually these specifics and the details of the numbers are in the narrative/footnotes. You may want to verify your percentages again too. Why? The total adds to 96.3. Should be 100 percent. Unaccounted percentage of 3.7 to sum to 100. ;) Also, if I recall correctly, the last sales revenue number provided had dyson at 20.7 percent (end of 2004). Vice 4.5 percent for 2003. If it were about 21 percent, it would appear the latest sales revenue numbers (depending on the reporting period) went up marginally since the end of 2004 (dyson base model prices were $400 and top of the line prices at $500). Despite the fact that the dyson vacuum retail prices have gone up substantially in 2005, 2006, and 2007 (with base model prices much higher than $400 and top of the line prices over $500). ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Venson Thomas on 06/19/07 at 5:57pm To broaden the debate I'm supplying a link to an article with some interesting findings . . . http://www.mindbranch.com/listing/product/R3418-433.html Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Venson Thomas on 06/19/07 at 6:12pm Purely on feel, the figures are questionable to me. Something just feels out of balance. One thing that surprised me was that the very. very expensive Kirby was at 8.9 percent. Even more strange is that pricey but popular Miele is not ranked at all. As well, has Aerus's Electrolux dropped of the radar just like that? I'd also think that Kenmore does a bit better than 5 percent as it bears a well-known name and has been with us a long, long time. Although I've no numbers to back it up, I stick to my guns in that the cheapies unfortunately are coming off store shelves in great number, thus there should be more names appearing in that listing to make it at least appear valid. Venson |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/19/07 at 8:39pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Simply put, I think this is at the core of how we disagree in business. We will have to keep watching dyson to see who is right. They are doing quite well so far though. [/quote] Hello again my good friend: Of course, I believe you with you being my friend and all. But for others who may not, can you (or other dyson fawners) provide verifiable authoritative evidence to support your claim that dyson is doing quite well? Not just your say so and hearsay? Carmine D. [/quote] Why not share your vast knowledge with us and prove that JimB is wrong. As usual you can't. You just can't accept the fact that Dyson has proven you wrong from the start. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/19/07 at 10:57pm buy HARDSELL wrote:
Simply put, I think this is at the core of how we disagree in business. We will have to keep watching dyson to see who is right. They are doing quite well so far though. [/quote] Hello again my good friend: Of course, I believe you with you being my friend and all. But for others who may not, can you (or other dyson fawners) provide verifiable authoritative evidence to support your claim that dyson is doing quite well? Not just your say so and hearsay? Carmine D. [/quote] Why not share your vast knowledge with us and prove that JimB is wrong. As usual you can't. You just can't accept the fact that Dyson has proven you wrong from the start.[/quote] Hello HARDSELL and dyson fawners near and far: JimB made the claim that dyson is doing "quite well" and we keep hearing that dyson is NUMBER ONE in sales revenue by dollars. Show the Forum the proof for the claim not just the "words" saying it's so. Or is this a numbers game claim to shame. Another example of the "Never clogs, never loses suction" dyson claim to shame? I provided the percentage of sales revenue by dollars for dyson in 2003 (4.5%) and 2004 (20.7%). The only years made available to date that I have seen for public distribution. I know that 2005 was a better year than 2004 for appliance sales (of which vacuums comprise 10 percent of the total) than 2006 and 2007. It was up about 2.3 percent in 2005. Why was 2005 better than 2006/7? Both years 2006 and 2007 have seen a fall off in new appliance sales due to the housing market decline. Warning to readers: SIDEBAR coming read at your own time, risk and money: BEST BUY reported very poor first quarter 2007 earnings and sales. Analysts were predicting 50 cents a share. Instead it was 39 cents. Down from 47 cents a year earlier. The stock price plunged today to $45 in after hours trading. And the BB stock price is down sharply from its 52 week high. Down 8.2 percent. The same is true for BBBY and Linens-n-Things. But Wal*Mart by comparison is at $49 a share and is up 5.7 percent for the year. And Wal*Mart pays a dividend of 88 cents a share for a yield of 1.8 percent. BEST BUY pays 40 cents a share for a yield of .9 percent. One of the wild cards in the upset is California TV maker Vizio, which sells low priced TV's thru discounters like COSTCO and Wal*Mart stores. A 32 inch Samsung costs $897 at Wal*Mart. The same Vizio TV costs $597 at Wal*Mart. Vizio has the fourth largest market share of TV's 30 inches wide or more and is growing rapidly. BEST BUY which has focused on higher margin, more expensive TV's doesn't sell Vizio. (Circuit City does.) High gasoline prices and the weakening housing market has sent more buyers looking for deals on flat screen TV's. They don't find them at BB. Think the same is true for vacuums? What do you think is the best buy? (No pun intended!) Somebody on this Forum, who shall remain nameless, actually predicted in early January 2007 that Wal*Mart stock would outperform all the other stocks in the Dow in 2007. He really went out on a limb with that prediction. But at the half way mark of the year, he is looking to be right on track! My sense is that TTI, owning both Dirt Devil and HOOVER, will soon have combined sales revenue and unit sales volumes surpassing dyson easily. If it doesn't already. Do I have proof? No, of course not. Not yet. It's still too soon to know. It takes at least a year to collect and report intelligently on vacuum sales data. And its very raw data with alot of caveats and restrictions. But intuitively it makes sense. Why? 40 percent of the vacuum market is in low end vacuum sales ($50-$99). As of the end of 2004. And Dirt Devil and HOOVER combined have the majority of that market share now. The other 60 percent is in mid-range to high end ($100-$300 and over). Again as of the end of 2004. And HOOVER and Royal (Dirt Devil) combined "MAY" have the majority of that market share now too for vacuums up to $300. Did I mention that TTI also owns VAX? And the new i-vacuum bagless upright from Dirt Devil for $250 will be on the market soon. With washable filters, and a 5 YEAR WARRANTY. And it looks very similar to the VAX bagless models sold recently. BUT LESS EXPENSIVE than the Vax models AND WITH A 5 YEAR WARRANTY NOT 2 YEAR WARRANTY like the earlier Vax models. And the i-vacuum comes with a cordwinder and headlight too. Do you know most vacuum users when asked say they prefer a cordwinder to the cord wrap method? Why? Quicker and saves time. Very clever product development and marketing by Dirt Devil for the Vax bagless models? As is the Spinnergy (Old HOOVER FUSION). My point: All things being the same (and we know they never are) TTI will be, if it isn't already, the market leader in vacuums regardless of how you compute, collect and report the data. That is a result of the acquisition of HOOVER by TTI from Whirlpool. Just as the acquisition of Maytag by Whirlpool makes it the market leader for household appliances. ;) Carmine |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Dyson INVENTS BIG on 06/20/07 at 12:01am USA TODAY reported the numbers. JimB simply passed them onto this forum and posted the link too. Dyson I N V E N T S BIG |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 12:24am Dyson INVENTS BIG wrote:
Really? I must have missed that link. The AirBlade keeps coming up. Mind reposting it please, JimB. BTW, mind explaining: Dyson Invents Big? Big "what?" I missed that too. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/20/07 at 12:49pm Carmine, your lenghty response did not prove JimB to be wrong. As for the Samsung vs Vizio. If you knew about electronics you would not hint that the lower priced Vizio is equal to the Samsung. Samsung has better PQ in addition to overall quality. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 1:04pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I'm not trying to prove anything and/or anyone wrong. I just asked for the backup for the dyson claim, which I'm sure JimB has but posted the wrong USA Today link. ;) I was at the local Wal*Mart store and I'm going back today. I viewed the Samsung and Vizio TV's side by side (37 inch models: Samsung $1170 vice Vizio $790). I was very impressed with the PQ of the Vizio for the difference in price. I say the Vizio PQ was better than the Samsung. Same is true with the COSTCO store, which displays the Vizio TV's as soon as you walk into the store. COSTCO is where I first saw the Vizio brand and price. As I mentioned, COSTCO members have an average annual income of $72,000. Vice Wal*Mart which is in the $40,s. Sam's in the $50's. Not being an electronics and TV buff like you with your expertise, I deferred to several market authorities: Bank of America analyst David Stresser, research outfit Current Analysis, and electronics reporters Scott Patterson and Justin Lahart. And I read the Consumer Reports March 2007 edition which in addition to rating vacuums rates TV's. All of which give high praise to Vizio flat screen and liquid-crystal display TV's, which sources out of China. CR rates Vizio 10 vice Samsung 8 for 40 inch and larger TV models. Giving both similar ratings and scores. The Samsung is $2300 vice $1300 for Vizio. And Vizio gets a Good Value rating by CR saying it has "good HD picture quality" at a low price. I also understand that "shelf share" of the Vizio has increased from April to May from 1.8 percent to 5.9 percent. Which indicates big box electronics retailers are moving quickly to cull and shuffle inventories to replace with quick moving and selling merchandise. Think the same is true for vacuums? ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/20/07 at 2:55pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Carmine, If you look a little closer you will find the link below the numbers where I got the numbers from. USA today was using the NPD numbers not I. I think it is safe to assume as the article is just a couple of days old and they say the numbers are through April that they are reffering to this years revenue numbers on upright vacuums. Also it would not take a rocket scientist to see many companies missing from the list that USA today probably dropped as under 1% marketshare to make up the missing few percentage points. No matter how you spin it from there it sure does look like a huge success and not the company not being succesful as you constantly incorrectly imply... Instead of spinning the NPD/USA today numbers that refute your claims because they don't give the shoe size of the journalist, where is your link to numbers backing about your negative insinuations of poor sales? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 4:16pm JimB wrote:
Carmine, If you look a little closer you will find the link below the numbers where I got the numbers from. USA today was using the NPD numbers not I. [/quote] Hello JimB: Here's the USA Today article verbatim with the link you provided as the source for the percentages by vacuum brand in your post (see below): ************************************************ By Bruce Horovitz, USA TODAY Dyson is about to enter rare air. Not satisfied with its wild success in turning the mundane vacuum cleaner into a high-tech, high-style, high-priced device, Dyson on Monday will announce plans to try to do the same in the USA with commercial hand dryers. Next month, the upstart British company whose vacuums costing up to $599 quickly became top-sellers in the USA, will roll out the $1,400 Dyson Airblade hand dryer. They've been sold in Britain for about nine months and already are hot tickets there. The device, which kicks on when folks place their hands in it, dries hands in about six seconds. It pushes unheated air at great force — roughly 400 mph — through a gap the width of an eyelash that runs the length of the dryer. A special filter sanitizes the air. The device works much like the compressed-air dryer at a carwash. The water isn't evaporated by hot air, but rather is pushed away by compressed air moving at great speed. As a result, the Airblade uses roughly one-fourth the energy of conventional hand dryers. FIND MORE STORIES IN: James | Carl's Jr | Dyson "We've taken a totally different approach," says James Dyson, the CEO and inventor whose face has become familiar thanks to appearing in ads for his vacuums. Airblade is his first non-vacuum product. His goal: to own the business of drying hands in restaurants, hotels and businesses. Hand dryers look to be a business in which Dyson could clean up. The USA has 19.5 million public washrooms. U.S. paper towel sales are $2 billion, while the hand dryer market is about $54 million. Dyson aims to steal share from makers of both. "I'd be nervous if I was in this market and saw Dyson entering," says consultant Martin Lindstrom. "There have never been emotions attached to this decision-making process before." Will consumers actually care about hand dryers? "At the end of the day, Dyson's going to try to brand hair dryers," says David MacGregor, analyst at Longbow Research. "But if it's not extremely innovative, that will be difficult." Ted Selame, president of BrandEquity International, a brand consultancy, says the product's biggest problem may be its name. "Airblade sounds like it could chop off your hand." But Dyson says he intentionally picked an eyebrow-raising name. "This is serious technology, and we wanted an edgy name to get that across." Similar devices have been used in Japan for years, and Mitsubishi began selling one in the USA about 18 months ago, says Chuck Applebee, product manager at Mitsubishi Electric & Electronics USA. "(Dyson has) made some pretty nice improvements, but conceptually it's a copy of ours," he says. Dyson bristles at Applebee's claims and says his dryers are a "totally different" technology. The Airblade has at least one big fan: Dana McClure, a Carl's Jr. franchisee who is testing the dryers at his Corona, Calif., location. McClure was fed up with his conventional hand dryers breaking down, and he dislikes the cost and environmental trail of paper towels. He had the two Dyson hand dryers installed a month ago and both have worked perfectly, he says. Even customers are going gaga. They often drag friends into the restroom to try them, McClure says. "It's the first time I ever heard my guests talking so positively about our restrooms." ************************************************ Hello JimB: Please direct the Forum readers to the paragraph and section in the above USA Today article and the link you provided for it with the percentages in your post: JimB wrote:
I've looked close. Read. Asked several times. But I'm still not seeing the connection between the USA Today article on the dyson airblade and the vacuum cleaner sales percentages and USA Today link. And can you explain what is meant by: "Leading makers of upright vacuum cleaners for consumers in revenue." I'm drawing a copmplete blank on what this means. Or are you still just trying to "punk" me? ;) Duck and dodge, bob and weave. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by M00seUK on 06/20/07 at 5:07pm I can see the figures quoted, in the call out box, underneath the photo in the left-hand column? |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 5:17pm M00seUK wrote:
M00seUK: Thank you. I see it too. Now can you/anyone explain to me and the Forum what exactly is meant by the call out box title for the percentages: "Leading makers of upright vacuum cleaners for consumers in revenue." I'm drawing a complete @#$%& on what this means and measures. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/20/07 at 6:58pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I'm not trying to prove anything and/or anyone wrong. I just asked for the backup for the dyson claim, which I'm sure JimB has but posted the wrong USA Today link. ;) I was at the local Wal*Mart store and I'm going back today. I viewed the Samsung and Vizio TV's side by side (37 inch models: Samsung $1170 vice Vizio $790). I was very impressed with the PQ of the Vizio for the difference in price. I say the Vizio PQ was better than the Samsung. Same is true with the COSTCO store, which displays the Vizio TV's as soon as you walk into the store. COSTCO is where I first saw the Vizio brand and price. As I mentioned, COSTCO members have an average annual income of $72,000. Vice Wal*Mart which is in the $40,s. Sam's in the $50's. Not being an electronics and TV buff like you with your expertise, I deferred to several market authorities: Bank of America analyst David Stresser, research outfit Current Analysis, and electronics reporters Scott Patterson and Justin Lahart. And I read the Consumer Reports March 2007 edition which in addition to rating vacuums rates TV's. All of which give high praise to Vizio flat screen and liquid-crystal display TV's, which sources out of China. CR rates Vizio 10 vice Samsung 8 for 40 inch and larger TV models. Giving both similar ratings and scores. The Samsung is $2300 vice $1300 for Vizio. And Vizio gets a Good Value rating by CR saying it has "good HD picture quality" at a low price. I also understand that "shelf share" of the Vizio has increased from April to May from 1.8 percent to 5.9 percent. Which indicates big box electronics retailers are moving quickly to cull and shuffle inventories to replace with quick moving and selling merchandise. Think the same is true for vacuums? ;) Carmine D. [/quote] Hi Carmine, Vizio has very good picture quality and is a good value for the money. That does not put it in the same league with Samsung, Sony and others in total quality. A lot of Vizio's have been returned to Costco. Never judge picture quality by shelf viewing in a store. I will not try to explain all the things that can be done to make one brand better on the floor. Take a Vizio and a Samsung home and do a simple calibration. I believe the Samsung will win. Now, does the Samsumg ( or other major brand ) have a $1000 better picture? That is for the consumer to decide. Most would say yes, "if I could afford it". That is why Wal Mart and others who sell the lower end will have higher sales volumes and not higher quality. This is true for vacuums as well. I do not own plasma as I think my Sony SXRD has better overall picture quality. Others would prefer plasma simply because it impresses them and their visitors. Those professional reviewers are a joke to most buffs. One day Samsung is best, next day Sony and on and on. Perhaps some high end electronics store owner should also offer financial advice. That should be a trade off. By all means CR is excellent, if you take their opinion over millions of others. Quick moving shelf items are key to business survival, not to quality and performance for the consumer. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 7:14pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: Thank you for your unbiased opinion. I would add to your statement above one qualification. Quick moving shelf items are key to survival "of big box retail stores," not to................ I firmly believe the independent stores, at least as far as new and used vacuums are concerned, have to stock and sell not only quick moving vacuums but also quality and performing ones as well. Why? To satisfy their customers; stay in business for the long haul; build a base of business clientele; get repeat business; and increase customer base constantly through word of mouth recommendations. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/20/07 at 7:24pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: Thank you for your unbiased opinion. I would add to your statement above one qualification. Quick moving shelf items are key to survival "of big box retail stores," not to................ I firmly believe the independent stores, at least as far as new and used vacuums are concerned, have to stock and sell not only quick moving vacuums but also quality and performing ones as well. Why? To satisfy their customers; stay in business for the long haul; build a base of business clientele; get repeat business; and increase customer base constantly through word of mouth recommendations. Carmine D.[/quote] Carmine, your usual unbiased opinion is also appreciated. Again, what percent of an independent's income is profit from vacuum sales vs parts and repairs? I suspect it is not from vacuum sales unless the owner is working for minimum wage or less. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 8:34pm HARDSELL wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I don't think there is a fixed percentage across the industry that applies consistently to all indepedents. Why? At any point in time that you want to measure revenue: Day, week(s), month(s), quarter(s), biyearly, yearly, year to year, the mix of revenue generated from new/used vacuum sales, customer repairs and parts fluctuate. Some weeks the revenue from sales of new/used vacuums exceeds revenue taken in for repairs and parts. Some weeks you don't sell any new/used vacuums and business is strictly sale of parts and customer repairs. And there is any possibility of mix in between. Over many years, I'd say from my personal and professional perspective, that successful independents will have equal percentages of revenue from each of the 3: new/used vacuum sales, customer repairs and parts are equal. About 1/3 for each toward revenues. General ball park figures. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/20/07 at 10:20pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: I don't think there is a fixed percentage across the industry that applies consistently to all indepedents. Why? At any point in time that you want to measure revenue: Day, week(s), month(s), quarter(s), biyearly, yearly, year to year, the mix of revenue generated from new/used vacuum sales, customer repairs and parts fluctuate. Some weeks the revenue from sales of new/used vacuums exceeds revenue taken in for repairs and parts. Some weeks you don't sell any new/used vacuums and business is strictly sale of parts and customer repairs. And there is any possibility of mix in between. Over many years, I'd say from my personal and professional perspective, that successful independents will have equal percentages of revenue from each of the 3: new/used vacuum sales, customer repairs and parts are equal. About 1/3 for each toward revenues. General ball park figures. Carmine D. [/quote] Could an independent make a decent living selling vacuums exclusively? No parts sales. No repairs or maintenance adjustments. Assume that exclusion of the all but sales had no negative impact on sales. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 10:34pm HARDSELL wrote:
Not in a store location with the usual fixed and variable costs for overhead. It takes a mix of all 3. IMHO. HARDSELL wrote:
I wouldn't and couldn't make that assumption. Why? It's unrealistic to independent vacuum cleaner store operations IF the owner/operator is in the business with an eye for the long term. A successful independent has to offer parts and repairs to its customers. Why? The vacuum business is about building business relationships with its customers over time. It's not about a one time transaction for a sale of a product (like big box retailers). The latter is only part of the total business spectrum. Many of the new and used vacuum cleaner buyers will come from the parts and repairs clientele. Especially over the long term of business. If I were to change your question to this: Can an independent make a decent living from parts and repairs without the sales of new vacuums? I would answer: Yes, if the vacuum business includes the sale of used and/or rebuilt vacuums which are competitively priced and marketed (guaranteed comparable to new vacuums based on the brand, model, and selling price). Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/20/07 at 10:47pm Carmine_Difazio wrote:
Hello HARDSELL: Thank you for your unbiased opinion. I would add to your statement above one qualification. Quick moving shelf items are key to survival "of big box retail stores," not to................ I firmly believe the independent stores, at least as far as new and used vacuums are concerned, have to stock and sell not only quick moving vacuums but also quality and performing ones as well. Why? To satisfy their customers; stay in business for the long haul; build a base of business clientele; get repeat business; and increase customer base constantly through word of mouth recommendations. Carmine D.[/quote] If the independents are selling high quality why do repairs, parts and supplies make approximately of their annual income? My Dyson has not required repairs nor supplies in 3 years of use. Not many indy (if any) brands that can match that. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/20/07 at 11:12pm HARDSELL wrote:
All vacuum brands, makes and models need parts, repairs, service and maintenance to continue working "properly." The decision confronting vacuum buyers is whether they want to buy and hold [read repair] and/or buy and dispose. ORECK Home Cleaning Centers (about 500 nationwide) sell parts and repair all vacuums not just ORECK. 80 percent of their parts and service business from their stores are for brands other than ORECK. The same is true, although the percentages may vary, for independent vacuum cleaner stores. The bulk of their parts and repairs may be from brands other than those they are authorized to sell and service. Since the prices of dyson vacuums today range from $400 to $600, and come with a 5 year guaranty, there shouldn't be any repairs needed during that time. And if there are needed repairs, and not user related due to abuse and misuse, dyson has to have an authorized network of local independent vacuum stores to perform the warranty work. With the backup option of the customer packing, hauling and shipping it to Chicago Illinois for repair/exchange. The latter is an awkward and ill-conceived option diminishing the customers' perceived value for a new brand and product "selling itself as quality" in comparison to the other big box brands. And after 5 years, parts and repairs for dyson vacuums are not covered under the warranty. So customers have to, if they want to continue to use their $400-$600 dysons after the warranty, have availablity and access to dyson parts and repairs at reasonable prices. The mainstay of this kind of support is the independent vacuum cleaner stores. And the less appealling option of packing, hauling, and shipping to dyson. Again, the latter diminishes the perceived value customers expect for the product support of a $400-$600 vacuum. There are many vacuum brands sold by independent vacuum cleaner stores that come with the same warranty as dyson. And there are nationwide networks of authorized sales and service dealers for these brands who ensure that these vacuums work properly for many years after the warranty is over. For example Miele and Oreck vacuums have industry reputations for 18-20 years of useful life easily. Other independent vacuum brands are similarly rated and pass from generation to generation within families. In large part due to the vacuum support provided by authorized dealers among the local vacuum independents. Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/21/07 at 12:03am I agree that all brands will eventually need service. Some simply seem to be designed to need parts, service or supplies more often than others. Could this be to keep the service centers profitable when vac sales are slow or just poor design? I have never denied that retail for a Dyson is expensive. On the other hand the prices that I paid for an Electrolux, Rainbow and self propelled Hoover would be several thousand in todays's market. The Dyson cleans better than any of them. The consumer has to decide if a Dyson that excels in cleaning performance is better than an easily repaired vacuum with less cleaning performance. I have added two more vacuums recently. 1.The Eureka Boss which is an excellent machine for the price but not 40% better than the Dyson. Maybe Dyson should file a legal claim to erase the BS from the box. 2.The Bissell Healthy Home. Nice for the price but heavy as a 49 Hudson Hornet. The Bissell removes a lot of dirt but leaves the carpet looking terrible. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/21/07 at 7:15am Hello HARDSELL: You're comparing a 3-5 year old vacuum product with other brands particularly bagged (save the Rainbow), that have been made and marketed for years longer. The perception is the latter need service more. Why? They have been made and used longer than 3-5 years. Of course they would. Bagged vacuums need vacuum bags replaced once a month or less often. A small price to pay to avoid dumping a dirt bin daily and weekly after usage. I've been using an ORECK XL Classic since April 26 daily, two months, and still have not replaced the bag! Works better on my wool pile carpets than the DC07 All Floors pink, which did not work at all. Why? Poor dyson brush nozzle design for medium to high carpets. I paid half as much for the Oreck as the dyson (including shipping and a year's supply of bags which will probably last longer than a year). If my Oreck develops a problem inside/outside warranty period there are two authorized Oreck Home Cleaning Centers within 12 miles of me. I don't have to pack, haul and ship the vacuum back and wait. Or talk to a dyson tech on 3 separate days for over 2 hours, just to be told it won't work and return it. The big box store vacuums you mention, Eureka Boss Smart Vac, BISSELL HEALTHY HOME, HOOVER WT SP, are significantly less expensive than today's dysons. And in my professional opinion better for rug cleaning than dysons. Why? Better brush roll designs than the dyson uprights. Vacuum users don't want to spend lots of time vacuuming the same area over and over to see the dirt whirl around in the bin. They want to spend the least time as possible. You can't with a dyson upright because the brush roll is not suited for USA carpets. It relies on suction more and suctioning out dirt takes longer than agitating out. You know all the reasons already. I'd be happy to spell out all the details, but it's redundant. Dyson is high end retail, the highest for the big box retailers. Is it worthy to be considered "quality" based on the performance of its vacuums to date? The ONLY glimmer of hope I see that looks promising is the DC18 lite which took 5 years and more than 5 models to bring to market. I think dyson might have a worthy vacuum product in the DC18 that can clean all USA carpets, not just low to medium flat pile. Not sure yet. Have to wait and see. The dyson canisters (DC11 and DC21) and hand held DC16 are the laughing stock of the vacuum industry. Even dyson retailers avoid them. And the exorbitant prices for these products combined with their poor design, performance and operation diminish the dyson brand and reputation to a point of no repair, I mean return. No pun intended. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/21/07 at 8:03am I would add that any vacuum with a pleated filter should also be added to the laughing stock list. Of course anyone who has hadto clean the filter did not laugh. I do not recall ever saying that Dyson is the perfect vacuum for all carpets. No single brand is perfect for all situations. The Eureka blows too much dirt out of the cleaning path on hard surfaces. The brush can not be turned off on most Hoovers thus making them ineffective for hard surfaces. My guess is that most homes have carpet suited for Dyson. I have been in numerous homes costing $1 million or more and not one had wool carpet. One of my relatives just purchased a $2 million home and his Dyson works great on the carpet. I am not surprised that you haven't replaced the bag in your Oreck since they clean so poorly. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/21/07 at 9:05am HARDSELL: I omitted an important detail in my previous post. All 3 of the big box vacuums you referenced: HOOVER WT, Eureka BOSS Smart Vacuum and BISSELL HEALTHY HOME are rated by Consumer Reports in the top 10. No dyson is. THe closest is the DC14 rated 16. And the DC07 a paltry 24 of 40. And ORECK is 14 (and still as always the case beats dyson). Dysons have fallen in the CR ratings as the CR performance tests have become more difficult for the dyson vacuums to navigate through successfully. But the prices of the new dyson vacuum models have risen nevertheless. The ORECK bag is over half full toward capacity and beginning to add extra weight to the vacuum. But still the ORECK is performing wonderfully well both cleaning and grooming. The daily use of the ORECK, since its so ligt and quick to use, preempts dust and dirt from gestating and building up over time in rugs and on floor surfaces. ;) BTW, daughter and Mother-in-law love their ORECKS too for all surface cleaning from the thickest looped wool pile to bare ceramic textured tile. As does my dear Wife. Too easy compared to bending down and turning the brush roll on and off on the dysons. When you have to dump a dirt bin daily indoors and/or outdoors and inhaling dust and dirt along with it and then wash and dry expensive filters regularly thru-out a $400-$600 priced vacuum's usage to maintain the suction [we know the dyson brush roll won't do the work], an old-fashioned large paper bag starts looking like a great invention. Especially with a year's supply of 8 bags (or longer) for $16 plus shipping right to your door. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by HARDSELL on 06/21/07 at 9:52am Carmine_Difazio wrote:
CR is another to be added to the laugh list. It is amazing that the lowly rated Dyson is so popular with users in the real world and most are not satisfied with their preferences. I have never encountered an unsatisfied Dyson user when browsing the stores or when they come up in casual conversation with outside contacts. Not surprised that the women love the Oreck. Light and easy to use. If only they knew what the Oreck was leaving in the carpet. Remember most women like cars that are easy to maneuver. They do not care about performance and handling. Glad to know that the Oreck is a good electric dust mop. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/21/07 at 10:38am HARDSELL: I recall you using the Consumer Reports narrative to illustrate your preferences of the Toyota vehicles and justify your opinions of the shortcomings of BMW. I was using the Wall Street Journal. Apparently you think CR does a yeoman's job for cars (undoubtedly because your and their opinions agreed), but not vacuums (because yours and theirs do not). Where you stand depends on where you sit. ;) Choose any authoritative industry source you like: Carpet and Rug Institute of America, American Society of Testing Materials, Good Housekeeping. Even the vacuum industry professionals. They all maintain the same stance as CR with respect to the vacuums we mentioned in our exchanges. Why? Because they know better than you. Ironic too, that you believe your personal conversations and familiarizations with dyson users' comments should outweigh facts and opinions of authoritative industry sources which happen to concur with the vacuum experiences of my friends, family and customers' comments for ORECK and the other vacuum brands we discussed. Where you stand depends......................I think you know the rest. ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by JimB on 06/21/07 at 3:10pm I wish I was retired. By the time I get a chance to check in here to see someone asked me a question they have written a book in the couple of days in between. So Carmine, I see a couple condescending/ridiculing posts stating that a link did not contain the info I said it did. Although it appears others may have helped you find it's rather obvious placement, but now that I have checked back in I wanted to make sure you did find the chart? I don't want to get accused again of not answering. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/21/07 at 5:05pm JimB wrote:
Then please answer my question. Here it is for a third time: Please explain to me as though I am a 6 year year old what do the NPD numbers mean and measure. I emailed USA Today for the details but they deferred to NPD. I emailed NPD and received nada. That's what happens in retirement. Your lifelong hobby finally matures into a full-time profession. ;) JimB wrote:
Yes, if it were not for M00seUK, who empathizes with an old retired vacuum man, I would not have only missed the call out box I would never have found it. Why? After over 50 years in the vacuum cleaner business, I NEVER EVER expected to find NPD vacuum data in an article about the dyson airblade. What in the Sam Hill #@%&* does one have to do with the other? Beats me. Obviously self-serving and meaningless juxtaposition of numbers with completely unrelated narrative and vice versa. I note that the same USA Today article that appeared in other countries and languages excluded the chart data. Interesting? Still no word back from NPD on my email. Anxiously awaiting a response from NPD, you/dyson fawners with an answer to my question on what the "chart data" mean and measure. I guess NPD and USA Today are of the opinion that "less is more." ;) Carmine D. |
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Title: Re: Dyson DC21 Post by Carmine_Difazio on 06/22/07 at 7:50am I took the liberty to excerpt this from a UK dyson article, that another poster was kind enough to provide on another thread. Thank you for the data. Since this thread has veered into the direction of how well dyson sales are, I double posted my response on the Forum to make it easier for readers to follow the exchanges. Enjoy. "Total number of Dyson vacuum cleaners sold worldwide since 1993 is more than 20 million (2006). 10 million of these were sold in the last three years. Two thirds of sales are now outside of our home market, the UK. Overall growth in export sales of 44 per cent (2005)." Since 10 million dyson vacuums (before returns) have sold worldwide in the last 3 years, I opined several times on this Forum (and still) that dyson has not sold ONE million units in the USA in one year. Considering that OVER 20 MILLION new vacuums are sold each year in the USA and have been for many years, dyson's unit volume share is less than 5 PERCENT of total yearly new vacuum sales in the USA. After more than 3 years in the USA. Any wonder that dyson presents sales in dollar volume while the rest of the vacuum companies present data in unit sales? The vacuum industry for the last 50 years has always presented data on sales in unit volume, not dyson which uses dollar volume. Why? In unit volume terms, dyson would be considered a niche vacuum for sales not mainstream. Dyson likes to come off mainstream and wow its public persona. IMHO Also of interest to me to note, dyson's 2006 financial results will be released this summer according to the article's author. Almost 6 months after the close of the calendar year. Just dyson results. But the NPD can post results for the entire industry in the USA for the 3 months ended April 2007 in June? Sorry. You have to show me what the numbers mean and measure before I begin to believe them. Still no response back from NPD on my question about their numbers. ;) Carmine D. |
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