Good afternoon everybody! I was hoping for some help.  I am a little torn between buy an Oreck Edge and a Kirby Sentria.  I have wanted a Kirby for a very long time, and I know how heavy it is (which seems to be the major critism everybody makes) as I used one growing up.  I believe the Kirby will keep my carpets very clean and that it will last a long time.  I would buy used/refurbished and therefore there would be no (or a very minor) warrenty.

However, today I decided to stop by an Oreck store and was very impressed with the Oreck Edge, which is the only Oreck that would work on my deep pile carpeting.  I am not convinced that it would do as well of a job and since it's a newer "edition" it doesn't appear yet on with a Seal of Approval on the Carpet and Rug Institute webpage (although many other Orecks do).  A Seal of Approval would be very important to me because I feel like they don't have a vested interest in what I buy.  (Consumer Reports doesn't seem to rate the higher end vacuums, which is disapointing).

Has anybody had experience with a deep cut-pile carpeting and what vacuum would work best? (I also glanced at a Riccar, but didn't fall in love). Anything you can do to sway me one was or the other would be helpful.  Please don't tell me the Kirby is heavy, I doubt the current version can be any heavier than the 1970s version I grew up pushing with no self propelling feature.

10lees wrote:

Hi,

It would appear that you're trying to talk yourself out of buying the Kirby you want. I may or may not be able to help you. Since you've stated your Kirby need not be new, let's not talk weight, let's talk money. A used G series Kirby, preferably anything from a Model G5 up can be found on eBay (check feedback to assure yourself of a given seller's reputation) at far lower prices than you'd have to pay for the very current Oreck Edge. The latter G series models will clean well and last with reasonable care.

The Oreck Edge, new on the market, comes with a matched portable canister but when new the set can command over $700.

Kirby uses old-school pile height adjustment which I like better but on the other hand its a pain to convert to attachment mode on cleaning day. There are people who think otherwise but I think they they are more inclined to want to play than clean. I believe it's all about getting the job done and moving on.

Kirby is surely good but, by today's standards, frivolous cleaning mechanism. (I own one.) The Edge and its companion vac is handy but expensive. If its the Edge idea that turns you on, also consider Hoover's Platinum bagged vac with companion canister. You'll get the same or better compared to the Edge and have it for a lot less money. Think of all the extra toys you'll be able to buy.

Venson

PS -- If "higher end vacuum" means costly vacuum, CR shouldn't be rating them. They are now priced well above what most money conscious shoppers can afford. Faced with laying out 1,600 bucks or more for a Kirby or feeding kids for a month or two, what would you choose?

By 'higher-end' I meant any of the ones I have seen at independent stores VS big box stores.  When I checked out Consumer Reports it mostly was Kenmore/Hoover/Dyson (I currently own a Dyson Animal which doesn't work on my new carpeting).  I hadn't heard about Electrolux, Riccar, Royal, Kirby and I believe there is only a few Orecks in the report - essentially none of the Gold Standard from Carpet & Rug Institute were listed.  I just wish they would test a wider variety though I understand most people will buy Hoovers from Walmart.

You're probably correct that I'm trying to talk myself out of the Kirby - the Oreck is enticing as it is on sale (599 for both) and has a 10 year warrenty.

Definitely the ORECK Edge.  If the lack of the CRI Seal is troublesome, it shouldn't be.  ORECK's have earned the seal as long as it has been awarded.  In fact the first vacuum brand to do so and continue every year since the CRI has been awarded.  I suspect, as I've mentioned here before, when a concern was raised that ORECK's had not earned the revised CRI seal that it was just a matter of time.  Be patient, the newest ORECK models are probably in the CRI queue awaiting testing and reporting.  Sure enough ORECK was there again with the revised CRI seal.  Same for the latest ORECK Edge. 

I would recommend if you haven't already taking a sample of your home carpet to the ORECK Clean Home Center store and testing before you buy.  $599 with a 10 year warranty...and you know ORECK will be business nationwide to stand behind it with parts and service. 

Carmine D.

 

The ORECK Edge upright and companion Edge Canister MSRP $799. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Does $599 include the canister?

I have owned Kirby Sentria, Oreck XL and now a Hoover Platinum.

Scrub the Oreck.  It may not damage the carpet as it vacuums.  It may, however damage the carpet over time as it fails to deep clean.

Kirby has excellent cleaning ability.  Height adjustment is the best that I have seen.  The brush can be turned off so no need for a canister on non carpeted surfaces.  If you liked the transformer toys that were so popular a few years back you will love the Kirby.  Attaching the hose / brush head is similar to playing with the Transformers.

The Platinum does a fantastic job of cleaning.  I prefer to use the canister for non carpeted surfaces because no brush turn off.  The upright is so light and easy to maneuver.  A few negatives.  Bags are difficult to impossible to find locally and they are expensive.  This is true for canister and upright.  The canister exhaust is very strong and will blow things off the table or whatever.  It is also noisy.  So is the Oreck.

Good luck.

Online it is listed as $799 for both the Oreck Edge Upright & Canister, but at my local store it is $599 for BOTH the Oreck Edge Upright & Canister.

Does anybody have an opinion on the Kirby Ultimate G Diamond Edition (dual speed) versus the newer Kirby Sentria?

This was posted in an on-line review about the ORECK Edge and may be of interest to you.  Enjoy.  Yes, that's right.  A 3 year old is doing the vacuuming. 

Carmine D.

Some features I absolutely love:

• It is more powerful than any other upright Oreck.  There is no need to keep running it over the same spot multiple times. It picks up everything in a single pass, including the hair of my two dogs.
• It doesn’t feel bulky, and its maneuverability makes it effortless to use.  Other units just seem heavy after using an Oreck.  Since it lies down flat while maintaining suction power, you can even use it to clean under beds.
• The Versa-Glide true floating head makes moving from surface to surface seamless.  Since I don’t use brooms, every floor in our house gets vacuumed.  Having this feature has been priceless.
• With variable speed control, you can set it on high for carpets or low for bare floors (or several speeds in-between).
• There is a 10 year limited warranty on the upright and 3 year on the handheld unit.  After a long and frank conversation with the owner of our local store (aka my son’s Disneyland), I found out that Oreck machines are built to last far beyond their warranties.
• With this warranty comes 10 free annual tune-ups, where they change out the bag and belt, take the machine apart and clean every nook and cranny possible.  Afterwards, your vacuum looks and works like new!  I LOVE this Oreck perk.  In fact, this perk alone makes the vacuum worth its weight in gold.

Other Great Features:

• Though a sturdy workhorse, it is lightweight.  Weighing in at only 13 pounds, even my son can easily use it.  Plus, it saves my bad back.
• It has a light duty Quickwand on-board tool that you can activate without turning off the vacuum and switching equipment.  All you need to do is “park” the unit.  It’s also telescoping, so no additional extension attachments are needed.
• It boasts being the quietest Oreck upright ever.  With his sensitive ears, my son enjoys this feature, and my infant daughter doesn’t get scared.
• It has a long-lasting Endurolife Belt.  I don’t know exactly how long this belt lasts, but in the course of ownership of our last vacuum (that does not have the Endurolife Belt), I have only changed the belts at my annually scheduled maintenance checks.
• The long 30-ft. cord makes for less outlet changes during your cleaning sessions.
• The side edge brushes makes cleaning corners and along edges a breeze.
• It’s easy to lift the vacuum up and down stairs with the carry handle in the back of the unit.

Let’s talk about allergies…

At our home, my son has horrible allergies that leave him stuffed up, coughing, and with fluid in his ears for weeks and months at a time.  Oreck’s advanced HEPA-Celoc Hypo-Allergenic filtration system in its inner and outer bags helps to eliminate 99.997% of pollen, mold, spores, dust, pet dander and other particles.  That makes mom happy.

A You Tube video of ORECK Edge upright and canister.  Enjoy.  Takes about 6 minutes to view. 

Carmine D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSmO3fqIvD8&NR=1

10lees wrote:

One of our posters, a very good and very experienced repairman, has made mention that some two-speed users have a tendency to constantly run their machine at top speed -- assuming an advantage I'd suppose -- and incur undue wear. Technically, Kirby vacs have had two-speeds for a long time but the highest was only accessible in attachment mode. Kirby Gs clean quite well at standard speed thus there's no particular reason to dog them.

Generation to generation (new idea to new idea I mean to say) Kirby has been more or less constant. Yes, they made the floor heads wider, changed colors and so on but didn't do anything radical until the Gs. The G series had a long run with an eventual improvement in the brush roll's tuft configuration that led to much improved cleaning ability.

As for the Kirby Sentria, I think it is the same old lady save for slight changes in makeup and wardrobe. I do not believe it surpasses its "G" predecessors in any way that's significant. However, that is not new. Many pricey niche brand vacs go for years without modification before changes are made, one way or another, to make them appear new and improved and hopefully more attractive on the market.

Venson

Do yourself a favor and look at the PROTEAM xp1500 twin motor upright .Its the best bang for the buck out there,and By the way i sell  Kirby rebuilts and have over 40 years of repair  experience.As for the oreck its a good $ 199.00 vacuum. The kirby diamond edition is not a real 2 speed motor , it uses a control board under the motor that acts like its a 2 speed motor, the last real 2 speed motor was filter queens lamb/ G.S electric  motor thats no longer being made and are rare like hens teeth.

MOLE

P.S  dont make the wrong move..........................

mole wrote:

And it earns the CRI Gold Seal of Approval

Carmine D.

ProCare 15 XP

So Mole, as a repair man - what do you think of Kirbys in general?  I had another repair guy at my local store steer me towards the Electrolux Santaire but it feels very plastic and I am not positive about the longevity of the machines by Electrolux.

ORECK partners with EUREKA [Electrolux] Sanitaire and produces the same upright under its own name for commercial cleaning applications.  Usually retails for $250.  As you can see, only an upright.  No on-board attachments as with the ProTeam.  Also earns the CRI seal. Carmine D. The Oreck Upright Vac Premier Series is designed for a wide variety of applications including: Hotels, Restaurants, Schools, and more. Features: Powerful 870-watt motor deep cleans in just one pass Heat overload protection system Reinforced fan (virtually indestructible with lifetime warranty) Ergonomic handle Teflex-coated outer cloth bag (shakeout) Top fill HEPA disposable filter bag 50-ft. long power cord with cord strain relief allows for 100 feet of cleaning area Aluminum roller brush with four bristle strips and double ball bearings 12-inch cleaning path Large rear wheels make transportation easy 6 position manual carpet height adjustment Chrome metal hood with V shaped motor vents Reinforced see-thru fan chamber for fast cleaning Metal on/off foot switch Metal foot release pedal made from hardened steel Metal bottom plate Weighs just 14.5 lbs. Lifetime warranty on fan Magnet bar Chrome Metal Hood 12" Cleaning Path HEPA Filter Bag

mole wrote:

Hi mole,

I didn't know about the board. Thanks for adding to my education.

Best,

Venson

What do you get with a tune-up?

Oreck professionals at the Oreck Clean Home Center nearest you will:

• Replace the belt – Your vacuum’s belt should be changed every 6 to 12 months. This helps to keep the brush turning at maximum speed, which allows for greater agitation (cleaning) of your carpets.
• Replace the worn or damaged seals – This keeps the dust that is being picked up inside the vacuum. Allows the motor to remain cleaner and also allows for better dust containment.
• Replace the inner bag – Putting a fresh inner bag in your vacuum removes the old dust or dirt and musty odor.
• Clean the roller brush – Cleaning the roller brush removes the hair, string and lint build-up so that the brush bearings move freely and keep the brush moving at its maximum speed. This allows for better agitation and dirt removal, which results in cleaner floors.
• Check roller brush bearings – This allows the brush bearings to move freely and keeps the brush rotating properly and at its maximum speed.
• Polish the commutator – This helps increase the RPMs of the motor and allows for better agitation and airflow.
• Check all electrical connections – You’ll have comfort knowing that the vacuum is safe and that a loose connection will not stop you from tackling those dirty carpets and bare floors.
• Clean housing and base plate inside and out – This removes old dirt, makes the vacuum more sanitary, and keeps it looking nice for years to come.
• Clean outer bag and bag dock – As dust escapes from the inner bag, it is trapped by the outer bag. Removing this dirt, dust, pet dander etc. helps to keep the pores of the bag breathing and also helps to remove the musty odor.

How to get your free tune-ups

Step 1: Visit our store locator to search for an Oreck Store nearest you or call 1-800-289-5888. There are over 400 Oreck Stores nationwide.

Step 2: Once you have located your local Oreck Store, simply take your upright in and they will give you a tune-up at no additional charge*. Each tune-up is a $40 value.

In deference to my good friend MOLE WRT the value of ORECK and price:

If we assume as my good friend MOLE says that ORECK is a good $199 vacuum then adding the 10 free annual tune ups for $40 each would raise the ante to $599.  Then throw in the Edge canister handheld free.  You're still ahead.  Do you need an annual tuneup?  Maybe. Maybe not.  Can't hurt if you want to keep your vacuum for the long term.  As I imagine you do.  Am I recommending the ORECK.  Yes, over the Kirby Sentria.  Yes, over the HOOVER bagged lightweight Platinum.  Over the EUREKA Sanitare?  Depends on your cleaning needs.  Maybe yes maybe no.  Over the ProTeam.  No.  Definitely ProTeam over the ORECK Edge for the money.  

Carmine D.

Buy the Platinum and save the high cost of the Oreck.  You will have enough left to buy another IF the Hoover fails within 10 years.

The Platinum does not need an annual tune up.  BTW did I mention that it also cleans whereas the Oreck sweeps the dirt back into the carpet?

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

You have consistently impugned ORECK uprights for deep cleaning.  A false argument as I've stated many times in the past.  Because so often deep cleaning is as much a function of user technique as the technical product features.  You say that the HOOVER Platinum bagged lighweight is better than ORECK XL for deep cleaning.  I say, based on my experience, it is as good if not a tad bit better then ORECK XL due to the patented windtunnel technology.  But, sir, you will have to explain to me and others in a cogent and factual way why a vacuum, the HOOVER Platinum bagged lightweight, that is a TTI/HOOVER knock off copy of the ORECK, with similar amps [for motor and suction] and more importantly ame design and function for carpet cleaning [including nozzle, height and motor speeds, can do so much better a job in deep cleaning carpets than the model it copies.  You haven't done that yet.  Here's your chance. 

Carmine D.

PS: On another note, it's nice to finally see and hear you recommend HOOVER's for their price, performance and quality over some of the other brands you bought used and sold.    I might add too that you and Consumer Reports are on the same page too WRT to the the HOOVER lightweight bagged.  Also a milestone for you after you impugned the veracity of CR for its vacuum testings and ratings. 

CarmineD wrote:

You have stated more than once that Oreck is not a deep cleaner.  It should be used daily to prevent imbedded dirt.  Most have more to do and no desire to vacuum daily.

Why do cars of the same weight and horsepower rating not perform the same?  I doubt if .01% of vacuum users care about why one vac is better.  Ergonomics, quality, price, and CLEANING ability seem to be all tht is important to them. I do not study the mechanics but I will ask.  1.  Is the dirt tunnel (tube) larger in the Hoover?  2. Does the Hoover exhaust better creating better suction?  3. Is the Hoover brush and belt better?  I know the belt is.  Motor speed is irrevelant if it does not have torque.

CR was in no way an influence in my purchasing decision.  Hoover ain't Hoover these days.  They were poor performers before being sold.  You seem to support the bottom tier performers.

HARDSELL wrote:

You can't answer HS?  We're talking vacuums here, not cars.  Let's talk vacuums.  And in particular: The 2 vacuums in question: ORECK XL and HOOVER lightweight bagged.  Why is one [HOOVER} so much better than the other [ORECK] for carpet cleaning?

What I said was:  ORECK XL was not as good a deep down rug cleaner as a full sized HOOVER WT upright.  I said it was a good second place. 

Carmine D.

PS:  Here are my exact words excerpted from a review of the ORECK XL posted here from several years ago.  If you like go to the reviews tab here and verify.

"Almost as good as the HOOVER Windtunnel for cleaning and grooming but not quite
Alot lighter and easier to use than all full sized uprights including the HOOVER WT"

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!  Wait, am I back in middle school?  And here I thought I was acting all grown up by posting on a vacuum discussion board (as in signs you've firmly an adult).

Anyhoo, I am fairly certain the Kirby is my machine.  I would still like to know from MOLE about what type of repairs he sees in for Kirby, but barring that information I don't need any additional information about the Oreck or, god forbid I entertain the notion of buying another one, a Hoover.

Thank you all for the helpful information!

10lees wrote:

Stating facts is not fighting.  Correcting one's mistatements about my own quotes here is setting the record straight for all like you who come here and read and ask advice. 

Carmine D.

10lees wrote:

Kirbys have not made any dramatic changes [other than the tech drive on the generation 3] Dating back to 1992 or 3, The kirby is a great open area rug cleaning machine,I tell people that if you have no furniture and are one floor its a great machine.

The machine with all the goodies  is too hard for the average person to use. The usual problems with the generation series are since its a FAN FIRST design that all the dirt and debris go up thru the moving parts,brush,belt fan, fan pullie .

The all metal  pitch is very irrelevent, Is there really any need for die cast aluminum in household applications?. Kirbys are sold  in one on one demonstrations,by authorized kirby distributors,been that way since 1906. Think about this why did Kirby go from a aluminum fan to lexan fan,it was called the bolt eater fan.

The resale value on kirbys are rediculous,MAYBE a good G5,G6, diamond edition, may bring 250.00 with all the toys.

They must get rid of that silly bag tube.............

mole

mole wrote:

Hello my friend:

I would add to answer your question about abandoning the aluminum fans:  The little old lady, who was the only Kirby employee one who could balance them properly, died. 

Carmine D.

How does the current Kirby model compare to the 1974-75 Traditional model?  Has it always been a 'fan first' design?  I heard the Kirbys always pulled NOT through the motor which is a selling point.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmie,

Was she a friend of yours

10lees wrote:

Yes the motor and front bearing are sealed off from the fan which sits in the fan case,but so did Hoover,eureka,Royal and for the old guys The G.E.premier uprights

MOLE

It is a great pity that the SEBO FELIX isn't cheap to buy in the States. This is what I would recommend, or a "manual" old Windsor S12 commercial upright that has a manual dial to the side for height adjustment. Both have manual height adjustment and both are extremely capable to clean thick pile carpeting without strain. I can't stand Kirby vacuums - far too heavy - and even with a self propelled feature, it still has a dirty fan system which means more wear and tear on the fan since dust gets sucked through it, and not as instant to clean with the hose as the Windsor has a retractable hose and instant wand for above the floor cleaning - handy to have and quick to use in an instant. Also the Windsor/SEBO systems have removable brush rolls at the touch of a button. Oh, I think they have also had numerous seals of approval!

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

I met her at the KIRBY plant on occasion many many years ago.  I was proudly told that when she takes vacations, the plant stops all new KIRBY production.  Why I asked.  Because she was THE ONE and ONLY who could balance the fans and makes sure they revolved in balance on the motors.  A problem [out of balance] which went away when KIRBY switched over to the lexan fans.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

You are right vacmanuk for Windsor at the Silver and Bronz levels.  No SEBO's approved by CRI.  Strange but always the case with CRI for its entire history.

http://www.carpet-rug.org/commercial-customers/cleaning-and-maintenance/seal-of-approval-products/soa-gl-vacuum-list.cfm?product_type=0&product_usage=0&manuf_id=11

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Strange that Miele aren't even listed...but it seems this is purely only for upright vacuums. Goes to show in this instance that a "seal of approval" is no measure to finding the best vacuum cleaner, no matter how many products Oreck has managed to get in the Gold seal category.

I am fortwith on my biases, as it is well docummented that I am a Kirby fan from way back.

With that aside, I must say that to compare a Kirby to an Oreck, though both fine machines; is like comparing apples to turnips.

My suggestion is to get what you want, and what you will be most happy with.  Both machines you are looking at can be purchased at deep discounts on e-bay and Craig's list.  In these hard time is is not difficult to find someone that was talked into, or bought with their eyes wide open, and now face lay-off and job reductions where they can no longer afford their purchases.  Using this method you wouldn't have to choose, you could have both.

I know other's have made the suggestion as well, but look at the Riccar/Simplicity line of vacuums.  But before you do anything, make the decision what you want.  Deep cleaning, or frequent surface cleaning.  If you want deep cleaning, you may want to gravitate closer to the full-sized machines.  If you want quick, surface cleaning you may want to go towards lighter weight, less powerful machines.

Just wrote:
I just wouldn't touch either. I prefer clean fan systems - deep cleaning involves removing all manner of grit - and both Oreck & Kirby have dirty fan systems. Fair enough if they have lasted on your models, but it can't be taken as blues read. Thanks for pointing out Craig's List and EBAY. This is where you can get massive discounts off SEBO and WINDSOR.

The Riccar / Simplicity line of Vacs have both Clean air and Direct air machines.

Kirby's are very tough, and can handle most all household dirt.  Orecks and the Riccar Supralite have a more delicate fan you need to practice greater caution.

In nearly 50 years I have never had a problem with a Kirby fan (save the time I sucked up a rock in my Omega cleaning the car).  I use a shop vac for car duty now.

My main point on my previous post is:  Buy what you want and will be most happy with. 

vacmanuk wrote:

ORECK has the most models with the CRI seal while some are made by others and badged with ORECK's name.  On the value of the seal, I have mixed feelings.  It proves that the brand and model passed the rigorous tests by the CRI for the seal.  A "CPA" [certified public accountanty] has a certification that he/she passed a very difficult professional industry test to attain the CPA certification.  Does that make the person an expert accountant in all facets of accounting?  Maybe, maybe not.  I've known excellent CPA's and I've known terrible CPA's.  Such are the constraints of any certification.  When you visit a doctor or lawyer and see the sheepskin on the wall it doesn't say that the person was first or last in the graduating class.  Just that he/she passed.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Oh Carmine,

You are so full of old poo.  LOL

About direct air systems:

If we remember our vacuum, or more accurate the Bernoulli principal.  Direct air machines are more efficient and in moving large volumes of air, ie Kirby because the fan is so close to the work area.  In the case of the Kirby, the fan is approximately three inches to six inches from the carpet.  The air flow generated by the fan coupled with the Bernoulli effect in the bell shaped nozzle moves large volumes of  air through a narrowing nozzle  and thus generates the vacuum to pull the deeply embeded dirt from the carpet and allowing the tremendous air flow to wisk it away.    The dirt laden air is then pulled through the fan into and exhausted through the air horn into the bag system.  Here the dirt is deposited into the bag and the air pressure drops back to atmospheric pressure and the cycle continues.   All in all it is a short air path and an efficient system .  The effect of pushing the dirt into the bag, instead of having to pull the air through tiny pores reduces the effect of the clogging bag that Mr. Dyson likes to reference.

Now a clean air machine creates the vacuum within the fan case often some distance from the cleaning surface.  The air is pulled, not pushed through the filter material through a hose and finally the rug nozzle.  Basically a cannister standing upright. Though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate. 

Riccar/Simplicity has a Tandium air two motor system that is supposed to give the best of both worlds.  My issues is a $,1600 plastic machine is a hard sell to me, especially when there is little weight savings over the Kirby that has been tried an proven for almost 100 years. 

Just wrote:

Just, Shame on you...........

Simplicity/RICCAR would be my choice over the ORECK Edge and KIRBY Sentria too.  But sadly the poster ruled the brands out and posed only the two options for posters to sway. 

Nice to have you here again. 

Carmine D.

Just wrote:
Regardless of what Kirby claim, dirty fan systems mean broken fans on other brands. Clean air systems eliminate that. I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate."

vacmanuk wrote:

Vacmanuk:

Both KIRBY and ORECK use the old fashion vacuum principle of fan first dirt path to the bag.  With no tools on board.  Old fashioned by the years' old advances in vacuum features and technology.  To ORECK's credit, the Edge has a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning while still in the upright mode.  KIRBY after all these years does not.  ORECK to its credit has a dirt by pass vacuum system that does not degrade the motor with the Halo.  KIRBY does not, strictly old old method.  ORECK prices have come down and products have been added to the big box retail store venues to stay competitive in the industry.  KIRBY has not.  If you see a trend and/or moral here, it is this: Change and flourish.  Stay the same and risk vanishing.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Mm you supply a statement to qualify my question "with no tools on board," but then offer an Oreck model that has "a hose wand with tool on board for quick cleaning..." but it doesn't answer my original question to "..."though this system may be able to create vacuum, they suffer generating the air flow that direct air machines can generate..." Don't the Sanitaire commercial uprights (et al soft bag traditionals) still use dirty fan, though? We have them in the UK although their weight counteracts productive use in many commercial areas where the SEBO uprights are better.

I get the issue that the dust travels faster direct from floorhead through vacuum air to the fan and then to the bag. What I don't get is the rather fleeting statement that clean air vacuums "suffer generating the air flow." What is there to suffer when the fan is protected and no dust/stones are ever going to damage it?

vacmanuk wrote:

Yes, most definitely.  But the maker offers clean air dirt by-pass systems with tools on board too.  Changed with the times and advances in the vacuum industry technology.  KIRBY has not.  You can only stay tried and true to the past for so long.  At some point, if you offer the one and only option at the expense of no others, your time runs out.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

ORECK offers a convincing explanation of this in comparing its upright to a by-pass dirt path design.  If you have access to it [generally in its advertising], it's worth reading.  In short, the convoluted air/dirt path of vacuums with clean air systems diminishes the air flow and force [suction] over its long path from nozzle head to dirt containment.  Hence, vacuums with clean air systems have motors with much larger amps and watts [more energy consumptionmotors] than vacuums with fan first designs [like the old fashioned vacuums].

Carmine D.

Clean air and direct air systems offer different strengths.  Science tells us there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum. While clean air uprights do exist, and can do an excellent job of cleaning carpet, they do so at a much higher operational cost than  direct air uprights: higher electric power consumption, and seals which needs to be replaced eventually,not to mention additional filters. Canister machines need new hoses periodically. The internal wear and accicental damage cause a restriction of airflow. No matter how good the power nozzle may be, it cannot match the open fan upright's ability to pick the carpet up and hold it on a cushion of air. The open fan upright can always be restored to 100% of it's original cleaning power by installing a new belt,bag and brush, and perhaps a new fan and carbon brushes, easily. quickly,and inexpensively. The open fan upright lacks the cachet of newer design, and on-board tools,but it cannot be trumped for economically deep cleanining carpet over the long haul.

The Kirby offers a simple conversion to a canister unit, and I have yet to discover a better wand/brush arrngement for wall/ceiling dusting than Kirby's. Heavy? Not to push. To pick up? No more than a Hoover Power Drive. With a good direct air upright, a simple canister, like a Eureka Mightey Mite, will provide ample tool cleaning functions.

Miele are wonderful vacuums, as are many others, but they do have inherently higher operation/maintenaance costs. If higher suction is used to replace high airflow and positive agitation of the rug, conducting dirt through 10-12 feet of hose/wands it costs more that using a simple, old fashioned open fan upright. Filtration is another point altogether, and changes the discussion entirely.

Trebor wrote:
Well it may be cheaper to maintain a traditional dirty fan system vacuum in the U.S but not so in the U.K

Infact getting parts for several Hoover line ups are getting increasingly difficult. Carbon brushes also exist for many clean air systems including the SEBO X models but Hoover UK charge an astronomical amount of money for the outer replacement dust bag for the Junior/Senior/Convertible series.

Of the dirty fan system designed vacuums I've used Trebor, they clog far more quickly than clean air and the cost of a new belt, bag and brush can easily be aligned with the more modern vacuum design.

I've never used a Kirby other than for floor cleaning and the whole escapade of change over didn't impress me much with its heavier design. I guess in this respect this is why I prefer the modern design of the SEBO X / Windsor Sensor. Also the SEBO doesn't need much maintenance other than new filters and bags. Sometimes it just needs it brush roller checked like other uprights when hairs or threads wrap around the roller. Infact, my first model that lasted 13 to 15 years only ever needed one replacement toothed drive belt (the original broke under pressure and due to my own fault!) before it was sold on.