Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

I'm set on purchasing a Miele canister. Need some insight with real differences between the two lines - S2 and S5. Looking at straight comparison up on web I don't see significant differences in the unit itself. For e.g. http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/vacoverview.html For the most part it looks like main difference is in the bundled attachments, such as, power head, brush. Motor is the same, suction & air-flow supposedly is similar. Does it mean that if you throw higher end power head, floor brush that is bundled with Callisto over to a Delphi then Delphi becomes pretty much similar to Callisto ignoring cosmetics such as ergo handle etc.?

chirkut123 wrote:

You can accurately say so.  Also, a similar poster had this question recently and the thread is here which you should read if you haven't already:

http://www.abbysguide.com/vacuum/discussions/48669-0-1.html

If money is no object, then the MIELE S5.  If money matters, and it always should, then the S2 with the better power head.  Find a bricks and mortar MIELE dealer and test both for yourself.  If there is another household primary user of the vacuum, take the person along with you to do the same.  Then make the best deal you can by scoping prices out prices on the internet and asking the dealer to match or better.

Carmine D.

chirkut123 wrote:

Hi,

First thing is cost.  If an S5 model is no major problem for you in reference to price, I'd say go for it.  BUT check them out at indie vacuum stores where you may well negotiate a better price than what's available online.  Due to price they are not being snatched of the shelf by all despite their good reputation.  I'd say the same for the S series cleaners as well.

I hate name dropping merely for the sake of trying to make an impression by way of what you're prepared to spend.  What matters is results. I've owned a Miele Capricorn for about two years now.  They put a lot of bright but useful ideas in my Capricorn.  Besides quiet operation and effective cleaning, control of the vacuum's speed and turning its lighted five-height power nozzle on and off can all be done from the hose handle.  Don't know if the feature has been maintained but when making the intergrally wired hook up to the PN it  has to be restarted if disconnected while the cleaner's operating. A smart idea I think as this eliminates the possibility of electrical arcing when connecting while the vac's running; that's often damaging to other machines.  Being it's a mid-sized canister, by way of size and weight it's great for working on stairs and even up and down a ladder.  If you can't manage this machine  you're just about ready for a rest home and should really consider getting a maid.

Nonetheless, though the things I've mentioned were major incentives for my making the buy, most important to me -- especially considering the price -- was not only cleaning ability but dust containment.  For me the benchmark regarding that had always been Filter Queen which I've also owned but abandoned due to weight and design issues.  My Capricorn used in tandem with Miele high-filtration bags appears a good match.  You can attack just about anything you want with it and still thefind the bag chamber almost spotless.  What's the big deal?  If you don't see residual dust in the bag chamber, you needn't expect to find it in the fans and other internal parts of the vacuum and that means better chances of long life for your vacuum.  Though not of remarkable size, the high filtration bags may fool the eye but do the work well beyond any multi-ply bags I've seen.

That said, I would still again remind you that even at a discount these vacs are a bit expensive AND tool options can also be very pricey.  Miele, like so many other manufacturers, confuses the purchase process with an over amount of models offered when one or two good models and present options would serve both company and customer far better.

Actually there is quite a difference. More so in the UK than the U.S since motor ratings are different. Our S2 models have 1600 watts total power against the 2000 / 2200 watts of the basic S5.
But, I'll go by Miele.com details.

The S2 and S5 may well use the same bag but there is a WEALTH of differences.

The S2 is lighter to lift and pull and the body is a little bit more compact but the tools do not STORE inside the body like the S5's front flap. S2 tools are on a vario clip which sits on the bottom hose fixing. Many owners haven't complained about this but I found the slightest bump or moving through furniture often brings the tools flying off the holder. The holder can also be clipped to the pipes, but again I have a feeling this is in the UK market only and not the US which may just have the Vario clip holder on the base of the hose fixing.

The S2 is also smaller on power cord stretch. In the UK the cords are about 5.5 metres in length against the S5 which has 6.5 metres. The floor head on the S5 is also more substantial and made of better quality plastic than the S2. The S2 however is a lighter and cheaper design. This is evident from the lack of protection on the body and the S5 which has a little more protection. Both vacuums do have a dark pvc black rear so they're no better than each other in this respect.

Although the S2 is a nice design I'm more inclined to prefer the S5. It has everything you need when the smaller cleaning tools can be hidden away and with a longer power cord on hand, it feels a far better "vacuum in one," than the budget feel of the S2. Also with Miele you can custom build your machine to accept higher grade filters DESPITE MIELE USA making consumers think otherwise.

Other differences are: The S2 has a pigtail (a short hanging electrical cord) that must be disconnected & re-connected when opening & closing the bag compartment. S5 is a Sealed System the S2 isn't. The Floor brush is FAR better design on the S5. Please go to a local dealer rather than an internet site. 1- You can try them both out and feel & see the difference and 2-You are supporting YOUR local economy & boosting local prosperity.

CarmineD, Venson, Vacmanuk, Lucky1 - Thank you all for your comments. This valuable information will help me tremendously in making the choice. I do not have any preset budget limit for this purchase but I do want to be sure that my money is spent well. I've already looked at several Miele canisters at a local store - Delphi, Titan, Callisto, Capricorn, etc,., the other day. The sales person was helpful. Perhaps it was just me who got confused/overwhelmed with numerous options available with a pretty substantial price range. That is why I came here for help. One feature I really liked is handle controls on Capricorn. But that one is priciest of all. With high end power brush SEB-236 it is $1199. This retailer has extended a decent offer - no tax, which is ~10% cost plus a some goodies like, a box of bags, etc. I also have an option to buy lower ends at retail price with high end attachments with hefty 50% off - same high end power brush SEB-236, and the new Parquet Twister SBB300-3. Now with all this information that you all have shared, I plan to go back this afternoon to purchase one of those puppies.

Lucky1 wrote:
Lucky1, Miele's USA website claims that:

"...Miele vacuum cleaners offer a true Sealed SystemTM, each individual compartment and the system as a whole are sealed with one continuous, durable rubber gasket..."

This would induce that the whole line up is sealed. What makes the S2 different?

vacmanuk wrote:

My understanding is that Delphi becomes a sealed system if you put a HEPA filter, which is optional on Delphi. Rest is same.

I came back with a Delphi with Parkett floor brush and SEB236 power head, which is the same combo offered with Capricorn.

chirkut123 wrote: Carmine D.

chirkut123 wrote:
Oh well. Seems like Miele USA are obviously out to trap their customers into thinking that by putting a HEPA filter in, it automatically seals the "system" from leaking dust. A Sealed suction system doesn't mean that - it points to the actual sealing around the bag unit so that dust doesn't escape and "protection" strips or whatever built around the hose fixing. Even Miele's old and heavier S500 have sealed areas where the dust bag and filter is.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello vacmanuk:  In defense of MIELE, HEPA advantages and hype, real and imagined, are IMHO, a vacuum industry push and pitch for HEPA bags and filters that's not just limited to MIELE.  To its defense, Consumer Reports long ago called out the HEPA for its hype in vacuums using them.  CR has toned down wrt HEPA recognizing that it is a consumer friendly feature that's here to stay in the industry. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Well the story is different in Europe. Most buyers know what a sealed suction unit is and it isnt down to the HEPA or whatever filter is on board.

vacmanuk wrote:

Folks - I misunderstood the salesperson's explanation of Delphi - I think he said it is sealed just as higher end units but w/o a HEPA that can be added as an option. So I mistakenly tied the two together. But your generalization across all US is stretching too far. I wouldn't consider myself being mislead by Miele in this regard. Good for you that you understand vacuums well. Keep sharing your knowledge!

To MIELE's defense, its USA product literature refers to its vacuums as: "The Original Sealed System [TM] Vacuum Cleaner."  With the following description:  "Only vacuums that are true sealed and have unique dustbag containment area can guarantee that what you vacuum up actually stays in the vacuum and is not returned to the air through the machine housing or during disposal.  MIELE delivers on both counts.  The MIELE filtration system utilizes electrostatically charged materials to ensure that dust particles are securely trapped inside the machine.  MIELE offers three advanced filters depending on your specific needs." 

Note in describing the sealed system, MIELE makes no mention of the HEPA, which is just one of the 3 filter options offered.

Carmine D. 

WRT to Consumer Reports and its caveats with HEPA:  Excerpted from a July 1999 C R vacuum article:  "The less you come into contact with dirt, the better.  Allergy sufferers in particular want a machine with a clean exhaust, but a pricey HEPA filter isn't the only answer."  And more from the CR article:  "Bring back the bag.  Some models, like the Eureka Whirlwind, do away with the dirt bag.  But the plastic bin is really messy to empty."

Carmine D.

PS: Highlighted part for emphasis.

And more from the same C R article in describing the top 3 uprights rated [HOOVER WT, Kenmore Progessive, Sharp EC]:  "None of the top 3 rated uprights have a HEPA filter, but all have a very clean exhaust and would be a good choice for a home that has someone with allergies."

CarmineD wrote:
And yet Carmine, in the UK website, or rather from the Miele website where "optimum hygiene," is concerned, Miele say:

"...Thanks to the filter bag system and an airtight body, Miele vacuum cleaners were the first to comply, as a complete system, with the requirements of the new European standard for air hygiene when fitted with an Active HEPA filter. They have been awarded seals of approval by the DMT, an independent institute in Germany, in recognition of the fact that they can reduce an individual’s exposure to airborne particles such as house dust mite and cat allergens. Indeed, all our cleaners perform to the same high standards when used with the Active HEPA filter..."

Lets not get carried away with a sealed suction system and filtration.

vacmanuk wrote:

Same is true with MIELE's USA product literature, vacmanuk.  MIELE says, and I paraphrase and excerpt the salient point, it attributes its success in the awarding of the DMT certification to the combination of the Sealed System and HEPA working together.

It makes sense, if filtration is one of the mainstay MIELE fortes [as I believe we all agree it is and always has been for its 80 plus years of vacuum production], that the two features would be emphasized by MIELE as working in tandem to achieve the maximum  protection for indoor air quality.  From reading the interpretation of the MIELE Delphi buyer above, the dealer/seller makes the same point in the sales pitch for adding the HEPA bags/filter cartridge.

Carmine D.

The s2 is not a sealed system as the s5 is, as well airflo is similar but s5 has a heavier duty motor, i have had 3 s2 motor fail already

Actionvac wrote:

FWIW, per the Nov 2010 Consumer Reports 3 MIELE S2 models make the top 12 canns.  2 in the top 10 and one the MIELE Olympus cann gets a recommended rating by CR.  Same is true for the MIELE S7 ups.  3 make the top 10 with the Twist rated a recommended. 

Carmine D.

Actionvac wrote:

THEY ALL USE THE SAME MOTOR. I don't believe a word this dude just said.

Hertz wrote:

Pardon me for asking a question on behalf of another poster to whom you addressed your post but it just begs the following questions:  What does the type of motor have to do with how well a vacuum is sealed and filters?  For example, dyson sourced its motors from panasonic for its first produced DC07's.  These were motors that for the most part were in the industry since the 70's and found pervasively in big box store brands, like panasonics, that were selling for less than $100.  Dysons were retailing for $430 plus using a $50 over the counter pano motor.  What effects good or bad did using these old cheap one fan pano motors have on dyson's filtering and seals?

Carmine D.

 

Actionvac wrote:
Having motors fail on you has nothing to do with ' a sealed suction system' However I can see how consumers/buyers are being confused by what they think sealed suction means.
To my engineering ears, sealed suction means seals around the bag area and bin door with the hose connector that minimises dust leakage or even vacuum leakage that can be felt around the seal of the bin door. Other brands such as Hoover UK have for many years confused buyers with their term "Sealed Suction system" by pointing to the dust pull slips on the paper dust bags to ensure dust doesn't leak from the bag. That's just the bag and not the vacuum.

However when I googled "sealed suction system," just now, my eyes were drawn to a particular company:

http://www.ristenbatt.com/smpower.mv#SS

"...The sealed suction of a vacuum cleaner as rated in inches of water lift is a good indication of how well it will perform, especially when comparing systems with higher resistance to the air flow. The air flow is proportional to the amount of suction produced by the motor and inversely proportional to the total resistance to air flow within the complete system. Therefore, if everything else is equal, the more suction produced by the motor, the better the performance of the system. The sealed suction rating is somewhat greater than the suction normally produced when operating with air flow. It indicates the maximum suction which can be produced by the motor as described in the section about the load on the suction motor. Since the sealed suction rating is measured with absolutely no air flow, it is not affected by the resistance to air flow within the system. If there are no leaks within the system, the sealed suction as measured on a gauge will be the same at the cleaning nozzle as it is at the suction motor. Even if the filter system is extremely restrictive, the sealed suction will not be affected by it. Alternately, when air flow is present, the actual suction will decrease as resistance to the air flow increases between the suction motor and the point where it is measured..."

Sounds all very scientific but when Miele and other companies use these words such as "Sealed suction system," it can be harder to explain than the above statement. Both the S2 and the S5 have similar motors = but they are not the SAME rated power in the UK.. Therefore results are different and as you know the UK has different wattage to the U.S In the U.S though the S5 and the S2 have the same Vortex 1200 motor. In the UK the S2 has a 1600 watt motor and the S5 has a 2200 watt motor.

vacmanuk wrote:

Thanks vacmanuk for the info and quote on sealed suction systems.  Very interesting and useful.

Carmine D.

PS:  In the old days, door to door vacuum sales times, unscrupulous salesmen would remove the bag gasket on cloth bags, of course when customers weren't watching, and then demo their brand against the home owner's model.  The simple removal of the bag gasket, which sealed the vacuum's suction for max pick up performance, reduced the suction enough on the homeowner's model to make a huge difference in the seller's demo.  For the unknowing, usually made the sale too.

I could be wrong but I think we are discussing 2 different things. A "Sealed System" I believe refers to the total area from air intake to exhaust that is sealed by gaskets so that no exhaust can leak from any part of the vacuum before the final exhaust port. A "Sealed Suction System" refers to the ability to create an efficient "air vacuum".

Lucky1 wrote:

I agree with you and therein is the confusion among vacuum users and customers.  A sealed system and sealed suction system are mutually inclusive in that the better the former the better the latter [all things being equal, which of course they never are].  Which is the key point IMHO of the quote that vacmanuk posted.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Precisely Carmine, thank you. Which brings me back to the original theory behind the S2 and S5. ALL Miele vacuums have been tested and fitted with sealed suction units. The S2 is no different. Having just bought a new S4212 recently I'm also happy to report that it has a sealed suction unit, sealed motor and also additionally this one I have is made in Germany - my old S4210 was made in China - and I can't really tell a difference where the build quality is concerned. Still pretty much premium and generally excellent.

vacmanuk wrote:

Thank you, Vacmanuk.  You researched and posted the info with the synopsis.  I just agreed.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I've got no gripes over quality but it appears the bloom fell quickly off the rose as far as the paint job on my Capricorn goes.  A picayune point I admit but I'd think more care would have been taken with the finish considering the cost of the machine.  The charcoal grey machine base, colored all the way through, looks great but the "silver" cover and matching parts looks kind of ratty.I don't know the proper term but I would have preferred material colored all the way through to lessen the appearanc of small scratches and scuffs. 

Generally, all the attachments just need a wipe with a damp cloth to keep the spiffy look.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Its the same with my old S4210 and infact the whole S4 range that has silver paint. The pedals get scratched fairly easily and silver paint flecks come off easily. It's hard not to be "abusive" with a vacuum cleaner though, Venson. Unless you wrap it in clear PVC plastic to keep it looking new or you're a collector where the machine only comes out of the bag periodically for photographs. Still, I take your point since my own experience of the silver paint comes off all too easily. Even my S5 handle has silver paint that has come off.

However, I've only just began to look into Miele's claim of supposedly better design through my Which membership and discovered that the Miele S7 has quite a few faults with its handle from a lot of disgruntled owners.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi vacmanuk,

I am not saying that I expect a vacuum to look exactly the way it it did the day I took iyt out of the box forever.  Hpwever, I have seen and even own vacuums that are 40 years or older that, even with a few dings, have maintained more eye appeal than my two year old Capricorn. With reasonable care, just for the sake of the aesthetics that may have helped me choose thing -- especially at high price -- I'd also like to see some proof of external quality like a finish that can endure a few bangs and scuffs.  I want this the same as I want body components that are resisteantt to breakage, I want to to walk to the closet and feel a little pleased by way of my purchase's appearance.

There are finishes or materials that can help promote that but Miele apparently chose not to bother though nothing was overlooked when time came to decide on what to put on the price tag.  Saving a few bucks by painting some body components when you use color infused material elsewhere is merely nickel-and-diming.  And the even greater insult is when you see machines that cost far less doing the opposite.  If it can be done for two hundred buck machines it would seem like cinch for a vacuum they ask as much as $1,200 for.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

Not a picayune issue atb all.  Not for a $1200 MIELE vacuum.  MIELE needs to do better on the paint finish on its Capricorn if it's ratty looking after 2 years of usage.  MIELE's claim to fame is IMMER BESSER.  Not just two words.  It's a commitment to excellence.  Excellence means as good as if not better the best.   Paint finish, aka appearance, qualifies for a feature of excellence and it should be intact [read original looking] after 2 years.  Not chipped and marred. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
The same could be said for many brands though Venson. I guess it's really what your own expectations are as a buyer. The SEBO K series is a good case in point. SEBO have already contacted me about the issue of the look of the machine in question and they will openly admit that it isn't the best looking. Even when it came to designing their D series they have no intention of putting any silver on their machines as its a known paint that comes off during use. I guess its courses for horses where looks and materials are concerned. Can't have everything.

The s2 appears to lack the dust chamber edge sealing that the s5 offers, among other things.

Also, as an aside, it seems the HYCLEAN bags have fixed the S5's previous problem of dust leaking through its bags and clogging its HEPA filter, the main reason I've stuck with the Blue Moon for awhile.
Have to admit the S5 maneuvers  better than the Blue Moon, though.

vacomatic wrote:
Probably true but what about the inner side of the lid on the top where the hose mount is located? The seals may have been put up there that close down onto the bag once the lid is locked down.

The Hyclean bags have been improved - this was already identified in an earlier post where some U.S places are getting "Airclean" bags rather than "HyClean" and in the UK Miele haven't bothered to change the name , only getting rid of the central inner ribbons that pushed dust out past the seal hole.