Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Hi everyone, The other day I had a conversation with an indie central vacuum shop owner that recently became a Dyson dealer/service center, and from that little chit chat I learned of a few things. First off, the DC14 upright is being discontinued in the coming months. He isn't sure if it will have a new model take its place, but I think it's safe to assume that the same DC33 that is replacing the DC14 in the UK will replace it on this side of the pond as well. Secondly, he revealed that the DC31 handheld is being discontinued as well. I wasn't sure I believed him on that count, but surely enough, a quick google search reveal that DC31's are on clearance, and even being labeled as "discontinued" by walmart.com (google "dyson DC31 discontinued", and read the second link). There is nothing to indicate that the handheld will see another successor at this time. Also, though he didn't mention anything about the DC22, I strongly believe it is on the way out as well, with many retailers slashing prices and clearing them out (again, google "dyson DC22 discontinued", and read the sixth link down).

It looks like Dyson is no longer stocking the DC22. http://www.dyson.com/store/hmc.asp

iMacDaddy wrote:

Thanks for the info and links iMacDaddy.  Innovation has risks especially in protracted bad economic times for a brand that prides itself on premium prices.  Tho I suspect the DC33 product line up is an attempt by dyson to offer budget models to compete in the current/future depressed sales market.  Just so readers and posters make the correct connection, the DC22 is aka "baby dyson" canister with DDM.  Priced at $699 and $799 depending on power nozzle type.  The DC31 handheld for $219 (straight suction) and $269 (motorized brush nozzle) superceded DC16 handheld which is no longer on the US dyson web site.  Tho, DC16 still listed on dyson's active models by wikipedia.  Of course the DC14 is the oldest upright in the dyson line up save for the DC07 which was discontinued years ago. The DC07 is only offered by dyson now in refurbs and by retailers, few and far between, who overstocked. DC14 is following suit.  Two most senior dyson upright models, DC07 and DC14, signature dyson if you can call them that, have bitten the dust. 

Carmine D.

iMacDaddy wrote:

Hi iMacDaddy,

Are you sure or have I misunderstood?  I just followed your link and both versions of the DC22 are there.  I clicked on the "where to buy" link for my zip and found that there are about 10 different sites in the area supposedly carrying them -- Home Depot and P.C. Richard being on the list.

The DC14 appears to have been a staple for some of  the "big boxers" around here.  But to be honest I never know which end is up with Dyson.  Like too many other major vac manufactures who make so many models that making a choice can lead to a major quandry.  The last Dyson I saw that i like was the DC28 and for some reason that's the model I see least in the stores here.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

From iMacDaddy's link (see below):  BTW, DC23 does not use the DDM.  This is an authorized factory direct dyson dealer not dyson's web site.  It appears this site spilled the beans before dyson.  Awhile back M00seUK posted a dyson news article saying dyson was shuttering its state of the art DDM plant and moving production to somewhere else.  Usually you move the production first and then shut down.  Called transitioning production.  I noted here at the time that it seems unusual to close before moving production of DDM to another physical location.  Maybe this is the reason it shut down abruptly: DDM is a flop and is being scrapped in handheld and baby canister lines.

DC28 is probably dyson's best and final TOL upright model.  At $599 it's just too much for big box venue.  Even at $500 which is its sales price.  Too much in current times.  And the brush adjustment mechanism is still in its infancy.  Based on the refinements dyson made to ball models, filter schedule cleanings and clutches from DC07 and 14 to DC17 and after, it's fair to say dyson will have to refine DC28 brush adjustment mechanisms too.  With innovation comes risks.  With dyson that means high priced mistakes for consumers who take the plunge too.

Carmine D.

Dyson DC22 TurbineHead
Has been Discontinued
Check out the DC23 TurbineHead

CarmineD wrote:

There's two models of digital motor that Dyson have, the origional (v1) and the smaller, v2. The DDM v1 is used in the AirBlade hand driers and some canisters. The DDM v2 is used in the Dyson hand vacs and also the Air Multiplier fan. Given the relatively stable demand for the hand driers, you might imagine they can maintain good inventories and make a break in production feasible.

Videos for the production line of the DDM v2 show a highly automated assembily process. Importantly, the line appears to be constructed around modular, free-standing frames. I'd imagine all the production assets are owned by Dyson and if they wanted to move production at a moment's notice, they could quickly have them in shipping containers and up and running anywhere in the world within a few weeks.

M00seUK wrote:

I suspect Sir James, being the smart business man that he is, kept a ready path for retreat in the case the products using DDM had lackluster sales after 4 years.  As you say, easy to dismantle fixtures and fittings to relocate DDM production quickly to a smaller less expensive facility.  No doubt a reason the DDM products are [were] priced so high is the overhead costs for the DDM production facility plus the transportation costs to ship DDM to final production sites [wherever the dyson products using DDM are being made].

A few weeks for being up and running is an overly optimistic estimate IMHO.  Sites require approvals and clearances for operations [often dictated by local government entities that are bureacratic even for a Queen's Knight], existing contractual agreements with terms that fix lease changes/times for revisions especially nullifying, new legal agreements that require reviewing/signing by different parties often involving negotiations and rewriting contracts which take time, and trained staff to set up, operate the facilities, and machinery used in production.  Expert seasoned staff don't always pick up and move with the company around the world by uprooting their families and friends from their homes/communities, school systems being a huge drawback depending on where locations are moved.  The process takes a few months at a minimum to transition even small amounts of production into temporary quarters and much longer times to get back to going at full speed in a site with permanence. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
It's perhaps common practise these days; to have production equipment that can easily be re-sited. It would certainly ensure you aren't too reliant on a contract manufacturer.
Possibly no conspiracy beyond that. We'll have to wait and see what type of motors any future products include.

M00seUK wrote:

Once again I have to rebut you.  Discontinuing the DDM products like the DC16, DC31, and DC22 outright and upfront AND shuttering the DDM production plant before transitioning to another site and/or launching new products with DDM send a message loud and clear to me and probably others in the industry.  The DDM at least in the handhelds and canns are a flop for whatever reasons and there may be many.  Nothing to wait and see.  The chapter closed on those products using DDM and the plant producing.   It's back to the drawing board anew.  Back to square 1 for vacuum applications of DDM.  I'm not buying what you and dyson are selling on the DDM for hand dryers either.   But the latter are no concern to me as a vacuum professional [even if a retired one]. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
During the 90s Dyson contracted with a US company, Philips Plastics, for production of the early vacuum cleaners. They had quite a disruptive falling out over pricing, but Dyson was still able to move the moulds in to their own facility with the minimum of disruption, even though some moulds were with-held pending final payments and Philips staff allegedly vandalised many items of the equipment.

You might well be correct, that 2 weeks is a touch on the optimistic side. However, if Dyson planned ahead on a move, all the new contacts would already be signed. As a production line is a potential business fail point, key Dyson employees would have plenty of documentation in place to ensure that a relatively quick relocation could be made in the event of natural disasters, civil unrest, long-term power failures, etc.

When changing contact supplier, it would make much more sense financially to relocate, rather than replicate the production line and wind one down - so long as their supply chain / lead times are covered.

CarmineD wrote:
The DC16 never had a DDM part. The DC22 would have used the the DDM v1. Sources suggest that the DC30 / DC31 handheld is being discontinued and supplys run down, but it might be that it's being replaced with an updated model. I would personally find it highly unlikely that Dyson is exiting the handheld market, but as said, time will tell.

The AirMultiplier fan uses the DDM v2 and it sounds likely that the upcoming Digtal Slim will as well and maybe even items in the Dyson kitchenware range (as suggested by the patent filings) in the near future. Do you have anything to suggest that Dyson no longer has a facility *anywhere* making motors to their design?

M00seUK wrote:

More like ridiculously optimistic.  Not that I'm correct.  Of course I am.  You're incorrect to suggest 2 weeks is a realistic time for moving any part production from one place/source to another.  Months are more like it assuming everything you say above is already done without any problems.  Unless cutting costs is your goal [or government/political unrest which is a clear and present danger to life], you always produce in parallel site/source operations until you know for sure the new site/source is up, running AND reliable.  You write off/amortize the redundant costs of operations as part of business/plant relocation expenses.  It's done all the time.  Just like you do with R&D.  You never shut down the old plant/cut off the old supplier if it is your only source, especially for a critical component like a DDM.  You never go solo with a new, untested site/source, unless it's a start up for a new product that is not yet marketed and sold.  If you have an ongoing product operation, you need absolute certainty the new site/source is reliable with no interruption/delay of business operations.  Unless, of course, you forewarn retailers and customers to expect a down time and give time estimates with best and worse timeframes.  Then you have to meet them.  Cutting the old and turning on the new is just too risky for current operations.  And the reputation for your brand name if you blow it.  Even for a maverick like Sir James.

Having said all this, I'm sure Sir James and dyson ARE pondering these issues now as we post here.  For very good reasons.

Carmine D.

M00seUK wrote:

The DC16 is scrubbed.  Now DC30 and DC31 [both DDM users] are discontinued too and being sold on clearance.  Pretty good evidence that the DC22 the baby dyson which uses the DDM is over too.  No superceding handheld/cann models with DDM announced to date.  Your belief about dyson not exiting the handheld market is on pretty shakey ground.  Your belief that a DDM will be used soon in a slim upright is on shakey ground too based on the demise of the baby dyson cann.  I'm not interested in hand dryers, fans, and yet to be launched kitchen ware using DDM.  I am interested in a DDM slim upright but that is still pie in the sky based on a patent for a number of potential uses none of which are launched or scheduled to be launched.  The rumor that a DC33 was a likely candidate for a DDM slim upright proved incorrect.  Like relocating DDM production in several weeks: Alot of optimism, not much reality.

I have no evidence that dyson has any facility anywhere right now or in the future for making DDM vacuum motors.  All indications suggest otherwise: Dyson closed the chapter on DDM vacuum applications and is going back to the drawing board.  I know the plant where the DDM vacuum motors were made is shuttered and/or the vacuum motor production is abandoned.  Why?  All the vacuums using DDM are discontinued and none have been announced that will use DDM except in a patent.  That's pretty good evidence for me and probably others that it's over for DDM and vacuums.  Maybe a DDM stick vacuum that uses a power cord.  That's a possibility for dyson but depends on the price.

Carmine D. 

Went into Costco for broccoli but peeked the vacuum aisle on my way to teh produce section.  The DC14 is still there but for $299.00 today.

Venson

Dyson needs to get this motor ready for prime time, and put it in use within a product that people actually want/need (i.e. - A full size upright priced between $400-$550). I strongly think that their flagship motor technology should have been featured in an upright all along rather in niche products such as an $800 mini-canister or an extravagantly priced hand held. I think with the right marketing and the restrained pricing (A strong focus on zero carbon emissions and heightened efficiency, as well as a price tag THAT ISN'T $800, lol), this upright could succeed. I think a DC18 successor with a digital motor, reduced weight, and other features like variable suction control and LED lighting would make a far superior design compared to the DC25; the company's flagship(s) and current best seller--the department store of which I'm currently employed sells more DC25's than any other vacuum we sell, and surprisingly enough, a good number of DC28's along with them. I'm pretty certain that this Digital Slim is coming (what other Dyson product in patent purgatory has a trademarked logo?), but I hope for their sake that they hold back the overzealous pricing on this one, and price it as a volume seller and not a novelty niche item. It kinda scares me to speculate how high this model can be priced, seeing that they attempted selling the DC22 at over $800; I hope DC22's failure will convince them to lower the prices on future DDM products.

On a side note, I don't think the Air Multiplier has the V.2 DDM. I've only seen the motor referred to as "Brushless AC motor", which leads me to believe that it isn't a DDM (something which Dyson has marketed the hell out of for their Airblade and DC31 handheld). In addition, we have two Air Multipliers at work, and the motor(s) sound nothing like the DDM (as used featured in the DC22 and DC31).

iMacDaddy wrote:

iMacDaddy:

IMHO the recent DDM slim patent on a wide range of vacuums/floorcare products [does and will dyson have ANY of the latter?] including some already in production suggests one of two things/both.  First, dyson is concerned another maker may trump his DDM in vacuum applications [always a concern of his] and he wants to be ready to pounce with a lawsuit to collect proceeds for the infringement [typical dyson operating procedure].  Two, dyson plans to sell the patent rights to the DDM for vacuum applications to recover some of the expensed R&D lost on it and go in another direction with DDM for other household applications. 

Apparently, despite vehement opinion to the contrary it appears dyson has in fact scrubbed its MAP awhile back [latest evidence is Venson's post above regarding discontinued DC14] and current dyson models typically advertised and sold for less than MAP.  Usually 20 percent discounts [MAP is 10] not counting other buyer incentives.  More unlike the traditional dyson we know, is the latest DC33 line [in the UK] which  IMHO is a budget minded consumer line.  It took dyson/Sir James awhile but maybe it finally clicked. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

"there may be many" reasons why you have no idea what your talking about, but you don't for "whatever reasons".

Hertz wrote:

You should know what you're talking about.  You're the junk expert here.  12 for less than the price of a latte.

Carmine D. 

Good one! Thing is, most lattes leave a good taste in the mouth though!

Well the DC33 has arrived in the UK under three different models: the DC33 Multi Floor, DC33 Stubborn and DC33 Animal. One interesting note is that Dyson have apparently made this a better upright than the DC14 it replaces, yet the DC14 was about 8.2kg in weight and this new one is 8kg. Hardly making much of a saving grace there although it does have 1300watts motor.

Just thought I'd share with you that many retailers are receiving info on the next Dyson, one which I have personally seen labeled as "DC33MF" in a signing database. Not sure what the "MF" stands for, but regardless, it should be out in the next month or two in the US.

Hmm, I think "MF" actually stands for "Multi Floor", as it does with the UK version. I guess Dyson no longer holds the trademark for "All Floors"...which would explain why that designation is used on the new Kenmore Intuition uprights.

CarmineD wrote:

You're really that desperate huh? Pathetically using the fact of 12 for about $30 a piece, when I've seen Miele's and SEBO's go for less in better condition? They're not junk when they're built better, work better, filter better, and last better than O-what-a-Recks. OOPS! I meant Orecks! My bad.

Hertz wrote:

You missed the point.  You don't pay someone else to buy their garbage by the pallet.  As you did.  Regardless of the price and brand name.  You charge them to remove and dispose of it.  That's the point you need to grasp and comprehend before you argue the merits of what it is you buy/sell.  Junk is junk.  Regardless of the brand.  

Carmine D.

iMacDaddy wrote:
Not quite. The name "All Floors," was used on Dyson's DC04 (production 2001) -  I know because I had one and it was quite a troublesome vacuum based on its ratchet brush control system. There have been tons of other "All Floors" models by Dyson, of which I'm sure you're aware of. Even if Dyson don't choose to use it on their latest upright models they could use it again. Compared to Kenmore which is a restricted brand to Canada and the U.S, Dyson still have the right to use that name.

I am actually glad that the DC 14 is being discontinued....  While it's the only Dyson I have and I like Dysons as far as bagless vacuums go, the clutch is awful (I replaced mine myself less than a year ago and it's already making a clicking sound during operation, though it doesn't seem to affect performance.... not that awful ratcheting sound that it makes when something gets stuck, just a low, annoying click)....  Plus, the tool storage on top of the dirt bin is just silly, they are the way and fall off when I try to empty the bin.  I also *hate* the telescopic wand and wish they would go back to the design of the DC07, but all Dyson models seem to have that design now, so I can't avoid it.  I'd like the mini ball model or the one with the height adjustment cam.....  one with a real brushroll.... will probably get both to add to my collection when my DC14 finally dies.  It does seem to be a workhorse though, and it was abused before I rescued it.

Carmine, as this good, seemingly logical and respectable Vacuumfreeeke has said, he *RESCUED* his Dyson, and they are work horses, and will humorously defecate all over Orecks in terms of cleaning power, filtration, and in some areas even build quality, and again, he rescued his as I have done mine. Just because I bought them from a facility that takes in beat up equipment to resell, has nothing to do with the status of being junk or not. Get your head out of your rear quite being so pathetically biased. There are some people who are so brainless they simply don't know how to take care of vacuums, and thus you find quality machines in places they shouldn't be, like mine. They all came from the same place - probably a big company that ordered all the Dysons, as they are *ALL* the exact same model, color scheme, etc. Maybe you didn't catch it at first Carmine, but these Dysons I have, all twelve, were brought TO the "recycling" facility FROM the SAME location, and/or VERY SIMILAR locations, as they all had completely grossed out filters from lack of maintenance, and let me tell you, they've suffered a lot of ware, and they still are in great shape considering; work horses. Awesome machines, and anybody who disagrees might have comprehension issues.

Hertz wrote:

Let me attempt once more to explain what I have already done in a way you may possibly understand.  Currently, DC14 models sell new for $299.  Except for the handhelds the DC14 is dyson's least expensive model.  You bought a pallet of 12 dysons, half of which don't run according to you, and were en route to the recycle plant: AKA being junked.  You paid less than $30 each, a price which is less than 10 percent of the current dyson retail price.  According to the AICPA (American Institute of Certified Public Accountants) which promulgates GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles), which all US businesses are required to follow for financial reporting purposes, when the value of inventory becomes 10 percent or less of the current price, it is considered salvage (read junk, garbage, scrap, waste).  At salvage value, it becomes more cost effective for businesses according to the AICPA and GAAP to eliminate from inventory rather than continue to bear the costs to store and track.  Businesses pay others to have the pallets of inventory picked up and delivered to the dump (dump fees).  You saved the dysons' owner the cost for removing/disposing the junk dysons.  You bought them at a price that is less than 10 percent of the current price.  According to the AICPA and GAAP, you bought their junk dysons saving them the cost to dispose.  You got a "rear deal."

Carmine D.

Yes, Hertz.... my Dyson came from Craig's List and it had hair, (pet and female human), stuffed animal stuffing and all kinds of nastiness wrapped around the brushroll.... not to mention it stunk to high heavens like a dog and had even been chewed on by the dog.... the poor thing still has some battle scars from that.  Despite its past, it still works fine, and it's the vacuum I reach for when I need to use on with attachments or just want to see what was in the carpet. 

Hertz, I don't know what your screen name on Youtube is, but I think you may have seen my video on there already of the Dyson.... here's a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i4rC-JLIaw

It's a copy and paste link, the hyperlink thing doesn't seem to work on this forum.

The Dyson DC33 has finally arrived. http://www.dyson.com/store/product.asp?product=DC33-MULTIFLOOR Some notable features: -17.6 lb. weight -Plastic Telescopic wand -Two button wand release -Washable HEPA filter -$399 price point

iMacDaddy wrote:

I'd opine that new DC33 will also replace DC17. 

Carmine D.

If the DC 33  is replacing the 17, they are taking a giant step backwards.  A plastic wand now.... still using the telescopic system, and still using that stupid clutch system (with that joke of a brushroll).... have they not learned anything?  Dyson is starting to disappoint, and I've been a Dyson fan heretofore... I'm not a Dyson "hater" like many but I do hope they start making some better decisions.

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:

Hi VF,

As I've stated prior, I have the feeling it's all about economics and it looks like everybody's doing it.  Keep the sale price up and the price of manufacture down.  After, all the first rule of buisness is to never pay anyone any more than you just have to.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Vemson:

I was always stunned that dyson only warranties its own refurbs 6 months yet prices them at $300 plus.  One would think at least a year or even more for a maker refurbed to original specs.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi,

Short warranties on refurbs and full ones for the new appears to be the nature of the appliance game.  The trade-off being willingness to make do with a "name brand" refurb rather than shoot for new at full price.  As for pricing, I think Dyson prefers to sell new stock from $400 and up.  Maybe they feel they're offering a bargain even though the price difference is slim.  I guess there are enough potential customers influenced by brand names to make it pay off for Dyson.

I would think that because Dyson is all the fashion these days  there are many who'll acquire them just for the sake of following fashion.  Teens do it all the time and many adults also follow suit though usually not willing to admit it. 

Venson

Venson wrote:

Venson, you're probably right on.  For the 60 percent of vacuum consumers who go with the flow for their vacuum purchases, the majority would IMO buy a $200-$300 new big box vacuum with a 6 year warranty before a dyson refurb with just 6 months.  It is common place to see dyson DC14 and DC17 refurbs at $300 plus on dyson's site with just 6 months warranty.  With brand new dyson DC14 and DC17 models at most US retailers [with a 5 year warranty] priced at the same prices as the refurbed models. 

Carmine D. 

You have a point, Venson, but if they keep going this direction, they may start losing customers. 

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:

Hi VF,

But that's the idea.  If they lose customers then they may begin to rethink and improve product and practice. 

In the end result, the public's acceptance or rejection of any company's product or manner of operations, has a lot to do with what consumers may or may not go for.  They make the product, yes, but we decide if and what we'll buy.  If they want our money they eventually begin to show signs of "hearing " us.

Venson

Venson wrote:

OR... My guess is they could just go on the way they are and harass and fire employees who don't make quotas because it is THEIR faults they aren't selling products like they used to.

Aviori wrote:

With economy of scales, much smarter for dyson to lower prices on models that have been around for awhile than to discontinue outright.  Or worse reinvent similar take offs every year for higher and higher prices than the models discontinued.  Hard lesson for dyson to learn.  Took 8 years before DC33 was launched at a budget price [for dyson] actually lower than all its previous versions.  Now DC33 sells regularly for $318 at all retailers, or less.  At least $100 plus less than its dyson predecessors.  Hard times call for difficult choices.  Sooner the better.

Carmine D.