Vacuum Cleaners Discussions |
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vacmanuk
Location: Scotland UK
Joined: May 31, 2009
Points: 1162
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #91 Nov 22, 2010 9:24 am |
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How many people do any of us know that are all that much in love with physics?
I don't get the feeling that the important folks, shoppers looking for a new vacuum, actually give a hoot or a holler about cyclonics whatever they are purported to do, however they are designed or whomever made them. This applies to the Dyson brand as well. End-users only care if the vacuum delivers by way of performance and does not give them annoying problems by way of function or economics.
You know, I happened to meet a couple a few days back who bought a bagged Kenmore canister as opposed to Dyson, their first consideration, due to its positioning in the Consumer Reports ratings. Root cyclones weren't on their minds --- cleaning was.
Cyclone talk works well mostly on techno-minded menfolk like the majority of us here at the forum but not so well on those of either gender who just want to get their flooring, etc., clean and walk away.
I'd say that the term cyclonic has been bandied about for so long and by so many that it only brings a blank-eyed, quick let-me-look-like-I-understand type nod from prospective buyer to vendor these days. No customer asks, "What's the level of your systems dirt separation between intake and "dirty air" arrival at the first filter."
And that's what counts. How much stuff -- gritty material, fuzz, lint, hair and pet fur AND fine dust do so-called cyclonic systems glean and retain from the incoming air stream before it goes on to the primary filter? (Also, not discussed is the general small collection capacity of bagless collection bins and how free travel of larger debris for avoiding hang-ups around "shrouds, etc., which can disrupt intended air movement thus causing higher levels of dust to escape the process.) It would be good to learn that Brand A's system brings about x-amount more dust capture -- not at the HEPA but before the pre-filter -- than Brand B's. Those are points of discussion I'd allege bagless vac makers in general are not prepared to broach.
Venson At the end of the day there's a democracy here of what people individually appreciate, Venson. I've been having a similar discussion with another forum I'm on with a certain car brand. U.S buyers it seems have an interest to where cars are made that is the major decision breaker to whether they buy the car regardless of whether they love it or like it. In the UK we don't buy cars like that. Similarly, in the U.S whilst many may argue that vacuum cleaners should function the way they should, it is America that has hyped up the models - why else do you have so many different floorcare ranges on offer - because American tastes will think differently to many different lifestyle devices to make life easier. Whereas the U.S have had self driven mechanisms built in and auto cord rewinds on uprights, (admittedly its fun for the repairers who will know the amount of repairs that need to be done) the U.K has only just been given several brands with these wonderful features added. Similarly filter systems that claim to make the air better can't always be relied upon - and it was the Germans who had HEPA fitted to their vacuums in their bagged models before the bagless brands took it on as their mantra to provide clean air - even though a bagless design is messier. From an engineering point of view, I don't think HEPA was ever invented for bagless systems. As you say bagless brands are not prepared to broach on their own efficiencies, but rather just relate the basic premise of a HEPA filter and what it is designed to do.
This message was modified Nov 22, 2010 by vacmanuk
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #92 Nov 22, 2010 10:04 am |
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At the end of the day there's a democracy here of what people individually appreciate, Venson. I've been having a similar discussion with another forum I'm on with a certain car brand. U.S buyers it seems have an interest to where cars are made that is the major decision breaker to whether they buy the car regardless of whether they love it or like it. In the UK we don't buy cars like that. Similarly, in the U.S whilst many may argue that vacuum cleaners should function the way they should, it is America that has hyped up the models - why else do you have so many different floorcare ranges on offer - because American tastes will think differently to many different lifestyle devices to make life easier. Whereas the U.S have had self driven mechanisms built in and auto cord rewinds on uprights, (admittedly its fun for the repairers who will know the amount of repairs that need to be done) the U.K has only just been given several brands with these wonderful features added. Similarly filter systems that claim to make the air better can't always be relied upon - and it was the Germans who had HEPA fitted to their vacuums in their bagged models before the bagless brands took it on as their mantra to provide clean air - even though a bagless design is messier.
From an engineering point of view, I don't think HEPA was ever invented for bagless systems. As you say bagless brands are not prepared to broach on their own efficiencies, but rather just relate the basic premise of a HEPA filter and what it is designed to do.
Hi vacmanuk, This U.S. buyer bought a used German-made car over two years ago not for name but reputation. (Unfortunately, from what I have seen, I have not been given much to uphold the blind faith I once had in regard to American product.) Matter of fact I think I kind of lucked out because I am told that even maker of my car brand's newer models don't quite match up. I got it with 103,00 miles on it and, much to the surprise of someone who thinks he never goes anywhere, I have put on about 17,000 more to date. The mechanic I took along to inspect the car and others said I might realistically anticipate more than 200,000 miles out of this car. (I thought of the new ones I could buy here and have to dump after 100,000 miles and saw no difference except for a saving.) It's just a little wagon but it holds the road and handles like a dream and I can't help but feel blessed every time I get behind the wheel. If I could have found the equivalent American-made, I'd have bought it as long as I liked looking at it. But lest I digress . . . Please do not think I am suggesting that we rely on just one thing in a vacuum. What I am asking is that when makers start flipping around rhetoric they should have simple English means for backing it up and solid numbers. I am seeing daily that "cyclonics" is a loosely used term and to my mind it's time for people to insist vac makers point out the worth. Thus, as I see it, knowing if someone's so-called bagless cyclonic system has better than average scores for dust capture in the collection bin prior pre-filtration medium I may be induced to think that will mean less actual filter maintenance/replacement whether primary or HEPA. Please also note, I am not here for what I like. My wish is to see the general public get a better deal too. I don't care who makes the product or the devices it uses to work - as long as they're safe - I'd just like to see all of us getting our money's worth. Venson
This message was modified Nov 22, 2010 by Venson
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #94 Nov 23, 2010 7:44 am |
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I like to see buyers getting their money's worth too - the problem is nowadays, with so many Chinese made vacuums coming onto the market, where they should be cheaply priced and probably damaging Dyson and other major brands, some brands aren't lowering the price - or the basic design - other than a paint job or an increased motor rating.
Hello Vacmanuk:
Do you have some specific brands and models other than dyson to share with us? Stateside, median prices of big box store vacuums have declined in recent years EXCEPT for dysons which have actually gone up int he same time. With the exception of the most recent and current year which finds dyson following suit. It took 8 years for dysons to actually lower product MSRP and retail selling prices on its newest models and matching 20 percent retailers' discounts. Contrarily, other vacuum brands and models, like TTI, Dirt Devil, EUREKA, BISSELL, [even ORECK selling its upright solo for $200 and stocking its combo team in big box retailers for $225-$250] have all been lowering their price offerings in the last 8 years except perhaps for one or 2 models of each brand. Use to be $200-$225 was the median price for a full size decent up/cann in the bb retailers. No more. $100-$200 for most of their full size vacuum wares. Hence, the reason tht the buyer/user of the SEARS progressive Glide wrote: For the money [$200] the SEARS Glide should offer more, like attachments. Why? He's been [and others] conditioned by the falling vacuum prices among big box retailers. Dyson tried unsuccessfully for its time in the states to buck the trend of downward vacuum prices and now has joined in. Why? Because the competition at big box retailers is hurting dyson sales IMHO. Carmine D.
This message was modified Nov 23, 2010 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #95 Nov 23, 2010 2:51 pm |
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Hello Vacmanuk: Do you have some specific brands and models other than dyson to share with us? Stateside, median prices of big box store vacuums have declined in recent years EXCEPT for dysons which have actually gone up int he same time. With the exception of the most recent and current year which finds dyson following suit. It took 8 years for dysons to actually lower product MSRP and retail selling prices on its newest models and matching 20 percent retailers' discounts. Contrarily, other vacuum brands and models, like TTI, Dirt Devil, EUREKA, BISSELL, [even ORECK selling its upright solo for $200 and stocking its combo team in big box retailers for $225-$250] have all been lowering their price offerings in the last 8 years except perhaps for one or 2 models of each brand. Use to be $200-$225 was the median price for a full size decent up/cann in the bb retailers. No more. $100-$200 for most of their full size vacuum wares. Hence, the reason tht the buyer/user of the SEARS progressive Glide wrote: For the money [$200] the SEARS Glide should offer more, like attachments. Why? He's been [and others] conditioned by the falling vacuum prices among big box retailers. Dyson tried unsuccessfully for its time in the states to buck the trend of downward vacuum prices and now has joined in. Why? Because the competition at big box retailers is hurting dyson sales IMHO. Carmine D.
Without getting too entrenched in the micro economics, it's safe to say that the lower vacuum prices in the USA have not allowed total annual new vacuum units to stay the same at 20 MILLION or in fact go up, as one would expect, with all things being equal, and we know they never are. Recession in America [worldwide] with 14 percent unemployment, falling housing prices and new starts, and the tanking US housing market, worked adversely on the economics of new vacuum sales staying the same and rising. Including dyson where the US market represents 2/3 of its total annual new unit global sales. Add to this, the US Federal Reserve, my good old friend Ben boy Bernanke revising economic growth in the USA downward from 3-3.5 pecent to 2-2.5 percent, not just for this year, but next. Add too, the collapsing Euro overseas. First Greece going bakrupt, now Ireland. Next Spain? and Portugal. I expect a 2 tier Euro across the pond: Northern and Southern euro. Add too, the USA monetizing our debt [after Keithner and Bernanke swore under oath to Congress never to do so] adding $600 BILLION on top of the 2 Trillion already under this current administration, and inflation is already starting to rear its ugly head. Big time. Setting off, no doubt, an increase in vacuum prices in the near future. What will all these factors do on new vacuum unit sales in the USA? Globally. For the next 2 years and out. Doesn't take a genius to know.
Carmine D.
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retardturtle1
Joined: May 16, 2009
Points: 358
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #96 Nov 23, 2010 3:34 pm |
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Without getting too entrenched in the micro economics, it's safe to say that the lower vacuum prices in the USA have not allowed total annual new vacuum units to stay the same at 20 MILLION or in fact go up, as one would expect, with all things being equal, and we know they never are. Recession in America [worldwide] with 14 percent unemployment, falling housing prices and new starts, and the tanking US housing market, worked adversely on the economics of new vacuum sales staying the same and rising. Including dyson where the US market represents 2/3 of its total annual new unit global sales. Add to this, the US Federal Reserve, my good old friend Ben boy Bernanke revising economic growth in the USA downward from 3-3.5 pecent to 2-2.5 percent, not just for this year, but next. Add too, the collapsing Euro overseas. First Greece going bakrupt, now Ireland. Next Spain? and Portugal. I expect a 2 tier Euro across the pond: Northern and Southern euro. Add too, the USA monetizing our debt [after Keithner and Bernanke swore under oath to Congress never to do so] adding $600 BILLION on top of the 2 Trillion already under this current administration, and inflation is already starting to rear its ugly head. Big time. Setting off, no doubt, an increase in vacuum prices in the near future. What will all these factors do on new vacuum unit sales in the USA? Globally. For the next 2 years and out. Doesn't take a genius to know. Carmine D.
Hi Carmine
Is it not hard to beat a tempo overall...or a panasonic 583....versus the higher priced alternatives. Same results or better at a far lower price...even in the long run with proper care they are both hard to beat at that price point. Why spend more when u can spend less for far better results....and a product that will last just as long as the higher priced units. Why spend more ...when you dont have to for the same results. turtle
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #97 Nov 23, 2010 4:30 pm |
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Hi Carmine Is it not hard to beat a tempo overall...or a panasonic 583....versus the higher priced alternatives. Same results or better at a far lower price...even in the long run with proper care they are both hard to beat at that price point. Why spend more when u can spend less for far better results....and a product that will last just as long as the higher priced units. Why spend more ...when you dont have to for the same results. turtle
Hello turtle:
Agree. WRT HOOVER/TTI Tempo: It's prices have actually risen over recent years from a low of $50-$55 to now $80 and $85 and rarely on sale/advertised. Worth every $ plus some. Pano makes a decent budget line of uprights. Very popular sellers among vacuum store independents and worth their prices. I have no doubt that as the vacuum makers raise their prices on their big box store vacuums, the vacuum store independents will see a resurgence among vacuum customers for their new and rebuilt brands/models. Hopefully, these vacuum sales, at last the new ones, not the rebulits, will balance the fall off in new vacuum sales among the big box retailers. Sadly, no industry data/sources factor into the annual vacuum sales both new and used vacuum sales. Nor can/should. Except to know that to the extent big box store vacuum sales fall off, possibly even precipitously, used vacuums, rebuilts, parts and service will surge among vacuum indies. A good thing for the industry. Nice to see a silver lining, despite the bad economic reasons and causes for it. Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #99 Nov 23, 2010 5:29 pm |
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Well Carmine there's all the HOOVER UK uprights ; bagless and budget market made in China yet about £100 / roughly $159.88 that should be much cheaper yet aren't. Panasonic's totally outdated bagged upright vacuum sells at the same price, uses the daft 2 drive belt system and basic features against the same models you guys in the U.S have under the Miele Powerhouse upright vacuums with better features; those as well as the Hoover uprights are made in China. The Vax Life bagless stick vac / Hoover U.S Lynx "bagless" stick vac is £200 plus / $319.74 TTi yet should be far cheaper to buy - no other cordless stick vac in the UK is priced so highly.
Hi vacmanuk:
Overall, would you say that the median prices of vacuums sold at UK big box retailers have gone up or down [or stayed the same] over the last 3-5 years [excluding dyson brand]? How do these recent vacuum price trends compare to median vacuum prices in the UK in 2000 and soon after with the adoption of the euro? Carmine D.
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Why Dyson is different.
Reply #100 Nov 24, 2010 8:41 am |
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