Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Hey all, I have a burning moral issue; I LOVE Miele vacuums, and other bagged machines (Kirby, Electrolux, Sebo, Sweden Electrolux), but HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT do the bags and filters make on the environment?  ESPECIALLY Miele with all that unecessary plastic and metal on their bags and A LOT of unnecessary plastic on their filters?


What's your guys's opinion on this subject?

I would say not any more than the plastic off Dysons.

If you Love Miele vacuums then you'll automatically know that all of the dust bags have environmentally friendly materials. Or has this fact slipped you by? A fact that is documented in all of the current Miele user manuals.

For example look at http://www.scribd.com/doc/25037681/Miele-S5000-Vacuum-Cleaner-Manual on page 43:

"Genuine Miele dustbags and filters are made of environmentally friendly materials. They can be thrown out with the household trash provided the vacuum cleaner has been used only for normal household dirt."

A lot of products can claim they can be "thrown out", but doesn't mean they are environmentally friendly, however given it's Miele, and that they claim the bag is essentially "green", I can feel at more at rest, however it's still that plastic and metal in and on the bags and filters that makes me queesy feeling.


Are there any places you can take a bag to to either get it recycled or "emptied"?  Just curious.


But yeah, I think the Miele might be my next pick.  Either that or a Filter Queen B)

Hertz wrote:

Hi Hertz,

I share your concerns about the ecology but the healing of Earth -- if that can really be effected by mankind at this point -- calls for a much broader view of things.  By way of volume, there are far less vacuum bags discarded yearly than the tons of plastic tossed out by way of disposable diapers, plastic cups, bottles, food containers, toys and all manner of packaging material.  And that's just naming a few.  The niche vacuum brands you mention may probably be of less concern as they are generally priced to such a degree that only a portion of the public ends up taking one home.  Besides which, I kind of think that we yearly discard far more poundagewise through the cheap-fix vacuums meant to only allow us a year or two's use.

For anyone seriously desiring to commit to talking the talk and walking the walk in regard to bettering our environment there is only one thing to do.  Think about how you can make change begin throughout your personal environment.

Start first by considering the things you actually need, those you know you could live without -- or live with less of -- and what you usually end up buying by habit.  When we buy food out of season, do we consider the fuel cost and the pollutants released into the environment to get it to us sometimes from as far away as halfway round the world?

Talking vacuum cleaners -- right at the top of list would be getting on the recycling bandwagon by buying a used or rebuilt vacuum.  There's plenty around.  For those of a less delicate nature you can investigate as to whether there are permanent bag alternates for bagged machines or if a bagless machine has low maintenance costs.

OR begin re-using your disposable bags.  That's a practice I don't recommend but it would mean you might at least cut your disposable bag consumption in half during the course of a year.

If you must have a new vacuum then the thing to be thinking about is which might offer the least actual use of consumables.

What I have just said is not often attractive in a society where, God forbid, one micron of dust escapes capture or we should find ourselves deprived of the latest bell or whistle. Forutnately vacuum cleaners don't yet weigh in (pardon the pun) as much in the yearly picture of of discarded waste as do junked cars, discarded paper, etc.

The healing of self and the healing of the planet cannot be accomplished through a split approach to "treatment".  You have to stop, make an assessment of the whole picture and then begin trying to work toward effecting all around good as best you can.

Venson

Generally Miele's high filtration synthetic dust bags aren't re-useable and unless you buy an old Miele off EBAY with 1400 watts you can buy the cheaper brown paper bags. The cheaper paper bags however will burst in current Miele models as they are not used to the general higher suction motors.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi vacmanuk,

I think they are re-re-usable but the argument for not opening and then attempting to re-seal them is the possible damage to your vacuum if the job's not done well.  Nonetheless, disposable vacuum bags are a small worry as far as the enviroment is concerned -- biodegradable or not..  If rest of the inhabitants of our planet were to follow the American model regarding consumption we'd need about five more Earths to hold all the junk.

Venson

Well, we'll just have to beg to differ about re-using Miele dust bags - the HyClean design is so fully packed with layers, original dust that was sucked up the first time won't all fall out. Thus when you re-use the bag it will fill up quicker. I guess its a small or short cost saving until you can get more bags but I wouldn't ever suggest that the HyClean design could be reused - removing the dust through the flap would be bad enough since it compacts around the bag and under those ribbons. If you cut them then the ribbons are through the dirt which is worse.

One could always buy an older "Vintage" Kirby or Hoover with a shake out bag.  You would not only be reusing, but no bags in the wastestream.

In actuality I think that bags are mostly made of paper or cellulose which are biodegradable, and the contents are . . . Well. . . DIRT. 

In my opinion there are far worse things harming our environment than cellulose and dirt.

Just wrote:

Again, PAPER bags are FINE! Heck, even just the cloth on the Miele would be fine, but it's that EXCESSIVE amount of plastic they use for the closing flap w/ metal on it. It's not even just the environment but it's WASTEFUL! I mean, with all the bags thrown out w/ that much plastic, you could probably make a 100 Miele bodies! At least, if it's the same plastic ;) Still though, I guess because Miele's are so damn well built and that they last forever and not gunk up the environment with HUGE amounts of plastic like cheap China-crap I guess the "burden" is VASTLY alleviated, but still, I just wish Miele would use cardboard for closing their bags instead of so much unnecessary plastic. Ugh.

For example! :http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Miele-Galaxy-canister-vacuums/dp/B001G5MIWG/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1272503223&sr=1-13 BAM! Right there! Why can't Miele intelligently do that? They would work just as well if NOT BETTER because it would be the force of your strength closing it and not just some flimsy, sometimes unreliable spring door mechanism. Anybody ever use EnviroCare products? Any opinions on how they would compare to Miele bags?

Hertz wrote:

Can't answer in comparison to Miele as have never used one, but the EnviroCare bags are very good.  They appear to be a little more restrictive than the "clothlike" bags in Riccar Surpalite.  As I have stated before, I judge the restriction in a purely non-scientific manner.  The bag is firmer when squeezed, which is telling me that the air is not escaping as quickly.  My methods may be flawed, but works for me.

Venson wrote:
Whatever anyone does, do not reuse disposable vacuum cleaner bags.  While some may think that bag makers want you to purchase their bags, for their sake, it is not true.  When the bag fills, fine dust will embed in the pores of the bags.  There will be a point, when the bag will clog.  So when you remove the dirt, there is still going to be dirt in the pores.  Knowing the habits of many vacuum cleaner owners, I cannot see them knowing when to change the bag after they have reused it.  They will think it does not need to be changed, because they do not see any dirt in the bag.  They do not hear the change in the motor as it struggles to move air.

HOOVER did have the Handisac, that could be reused a few times.  If your bag package says to not reuse, which they all do, do not reuse.  Paper bags were created to make dirt removal, from the vacuum cleaner easier and cleaner.

If you do not want to pay the price for some vacuum cleaner bags, there are vacuum cleaners that do not have expensive upkeep.

So remember what I said, Do not reuse disposable vacuum cleaner bags.

Hertz wrote:
Hertz - sorry to disagree with you, but Do you know anything about Miele? Do you know that they recycle the plastic from old machines to make components such as the grid flaps? Sebo also do the same. How environmentally recycleable friendly do you want? The Intensive Clean bags have a lot more plastic going on, including the pull/corrugated strip to close the dust channel on the bag. Miele have done well here with their later bags in minimising plastic.

I find the cheaper paper pleated HEPA cartridge filter blocks fitted to many Electrolux products as wasteful - the grids can't be removed because they are bonded and the paper pleats therefore can't be burnt off. The reason to why there is a plastic grid is down to the suction of the modern motor. The 1200 watts and 1400 watt older Miele models that use the brown paper bags have cardboard holders. Put that bag into a 1600 watt Miele model that has improved seals and you'll find the bag will burst and also come off the cardboard collar. Cardboard collars can only be applied to vacuums that have lower rated powered motors. Sebo bags for their high powered C and K series also have plastic grid holders bonded onto the paper.

vacmanuk wrote:

Yes, I do know quite a bit about Miele, considering I did a 6 page powerpoint on them for school in German class, but I did not know that. That's pretty incredible, and really makes a difference. Very cool. Where do you find this stuff out, by the way? Finally; That's BULL CRAP about the cardboard collars not being able to handle the higher suction; *MORE* powerful vacuums in Europe such as Sweden Lux's use cardboard collared bags which hold up just fine, and these machines have crazy 2200W motors in them. No, the only reason Miele uses plastic would be for improved rigidity, though completely unnecessary.

Mike_W wrote:

Mike, I'm glad you issued the warning but there will always be some people who'll try to defy the laws of physics.  I had a relative whom, no matter how you  tried to persuade her that re-using disposable vac bags was not a good practice, always gave in to her sense of thrift.  She did in an Electrolux and a Filter Queen I'd gifted her and several other machines she bought herself.

A lot of people do not have a sensitivity to vac motor sounds I think.  For them the time to change the bag is when their machine absolutely won't pick anything up.  Never good.

Venson

DIsposable bags are for one time only. As one person remarked the pores get clogged with the fine dust. I have had quite a few people come in with motors getting hot  or burned up and they wondered why. These people had tried to extend their bag use by cutting the bottom of the bag and then stapling them shut. The cost of a motor was far more expensive they found than putting in a fresh one when needed. Electrolux Automatics were designed for this very reason. The way Electrolux customers got around the Automatic was turn it off and it cost them.

                                                                                                 Procare

procare wrote:

Hi procare,

Pennywise and pound foolish, it' appears to always be the same story.  Got a question though.  Do you think canisters with by-pass motors (meaning armature, etc., are cooled by a source separate of the suction air stream) would fare better under the same circumstances?

Best,

Venson

Hi,

For the genuinely concerned, the follow link leads to an article with some very useful ideas about recycling your old vacuum.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2386374_recycle-vacuum-cleaners.html

Venson

Hertz wrote:
Lucky you but that doesn't mean you know it all. Having WORKED FOR MIELE, Hertz I CAN ASSURE YOU if Miele wanted to they could still use cardboard collars - but they can't. I also have a degree in Science; biology and engineering. Why not test the theory yourself - buy a cardboard brown paper Miele bag and put it into a current vacuum that has 2000 watts; it won't last. You will find that the bag's collar will weaken and that the brown bag will burst. Trust me! Miele tested their synthetic bags well before Intensive Clean was the known name on the market of higher suction models and found that the material types don't burst due to the high suction and that the plastic grid holders are bonded tightly to the bags. Also Miele's recycling document used to be available to view on their German website and most of the grid holders underneath have the recycling sign on them. Infact most German companies take recycling very seriously and the UK have been one of the last countries in Europe to adopt recycling as much as the Germans, Italians and French.

I can't speak for Sweden's Electrolux bags, but the ones in the UK have cardboard holders and I don't think very much of them. The ones that have cardboard on them have rubber seals on the rim of the dust channel hole and can be used in vacuums with a 1700 watt motor. Here's what the bag looks like:




Having the vacuum that this bag fits to, despite the cardboard holder which bends over time, dust can't be sealed on this type of bag because there isn't a sealer on it. Now, interestingly enough, despite the HEPA filter by the motor Hertz, I can testify that dirt often escapes out of the bag, particularly if the cardboard weakens over time - if the bag had a plastic grid holder I don't think this would be an issue. NUMATIC who make the HENRY tub vacuums (and are also very popular in the UK) have always had double layer filtration bags with cardboard seals. However two years ago they brought out a synthetic dust bag that has a plastic collar - why plastic? Because it ensures that once it meets the dust channel, it stays put and has enough rigidity and flexibility to the plastic, that it ensures no dust ever escapes.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi vacmanuk,

What's your feeling as regards the advantage of plastic and synthetics for vacuum bags over paper products that rely on natural resources, trees, etc., to be produced?

By the way, I came across this article today -- http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/north-east-news/the-environment/go-green-news/2010/04/30/15-tonnes-of-rubbish-cleared-in-a1-clean-up-72703-26350588/ 

Venson

Infact, if you visit Miele's UK site on : http://www.miele.co.uk/about/environmental/default.aspx and download the Sustainability_Report_pdf. You'll find quite lengthy info on how Miele recycles. This starts on page 23 and boy does it go on!

vacmanuk wrote:

Thanks!  I've just downloaded it and can now read it at my leisure.

Venson

Venson wrote:
The question is Venson, if we're going to be uber-specific and pedantic about it, who's to question the authenticity of 100% recycled cardboard that has been put on a dust bag?

When it comes to dust bags, my main concern is "how clean is it, " in terms of keeping the dust in / sealing it in and secondly, is it clean enough when the bag is pulled off the main housing? Then there's the durability and the longevity of the bag in question. Hoover UK had several different types of high filtration bags on the market for their UK bound Telios models. Yet I found the cheaper thinner layered brown bags performed better than their "white" bags which had a knack of filling up and breaking off the cardboard housing. They were originally called Pure Filt and Hoover after a few years were forced to take them off the market because of their initial expensive prices and poor design,

As for "natural resources," I'm afraid that my mind is swayed on vacuums that have high power - those which have higher powered motors are more damaging based on the use of electricity and the power consumption. It is often a sign of bad marketing when brands claim that products which have "Eco Power," set into their design that the whole proposition is a total con. Take for example "stove kettles," or electric kettles as we have in the UK. There are some major brands here such as Tefal and Bosch claiming that their kettles have lower energy based on their smaller capacities or fangled "instant water" disposal designs. Yet on the base they all have high powered 3.2 kw or 3000 watt elements. Kettles that take longer to boil with lower watts of power have been scientifically proven to use less power and thus be kinder to the environment.

Vacmanuk, not being a fan of ORECK yourself, I'll give it credit and kudos for using a good quality paper bag with a decent cardboard collar and sealer that closes off the dust opening AND a plastic docking bag holder that secures the paper bag.  Simple, inexpensive, and effective. 

BTW, nice work on the academic credentials.  My kind of vacuum expert.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Thanks Venson.  Good information.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

As I've said before, the most impressive thing about the Miele high filtration bags is that they do do their job well.  They contain what they capture well and I've yet to see dust coating the walls of the bag chamber in either of mine or any signs of leakage around the bag collar.  I have not put much thought into their impact ecologically as there's so

The escalation of energy consumption, in my books, has more to do with manufacturers depending on consumers to give in to hype. If they can't sell us illusions of total purity, they titilate us with visions of power.  I'm not saying there is no place for it but high power draw has been leaned on to compensate for lack of thought at the drawing board when it comes to vacuums.  There's probably nothing that can be done about it since so many manufacturers are sourcing tools from the same places.  There's nothing new left to sell except extra wattage.

Nonetheless, vacuuming is probably one of home care's shorter tasks.  I can't imagine that even the most fastidious person whom vacuums every day runs his or her cleaner more than a total of five hours in the course of any given week.  A half-hour run daily in the average home should factor far less in the cost picture than the cost to run a frost-free fridge or high heat producing appliances.

Venson

Some good points there Venson. However it's the same adage with cost optional filters. I've recently replaced my "yearly," AAC filter on my Miele S4000 but do you know, I had that filter for 3 years AS OPPOSED to Miele's official "yearly change," suggestion. Over the HEPA filter, I find the cheaper AAC type just as good on sealing odours from the bag/suction air from the room. Companies such as Miele have little to worry about with their suction; Miele models sell based on their reliability, quietness, general performance and usefulness - one of the reasons to why I like the company and in particular go out of their way to make tools that even other brands have tried to copy (like the rather nifty Extender/Flexhose I added on here earlier in other posts).

vacmanuk wrote:

Ok, the cardboard bending theory makes sense - in theory, but theoretically if one were to use thick enough cardboard it really wouldn't be an issue. Also, tell me then, why Electrolux of Sweden uses cardboard collars? Again, a quality company making quality and 2200W machines that still use S-Bag cardboard collars. The UltraOne - which has been independently tested to have more suction than a Miele - still uses card board collars? You're theories and statements just aren't coherent with the presumably investigated and intelligent decisions of other quality, established vacuum manufacturers.

You've obviously got a thing about Electrolux and that's great - however the synthetics when dumped or disposed of take longer to break down / degrade than the plastic holders, so where's your argument in that? The synthetics are made up from using recycled biodegradeable plastics and fibre-glass. Please don't start jumping on other brands products without fully knowing what the policies are. Also good on Electrolux for having a bag that has greater suction. In the UK, Electrolux aren't supplying the same machine as the continent are getting and that's a big mistake for many owners and buyers who love the brand. However their cylinder vacuums in my experience just aren't as well built as both Sebo or Miele.

vacmanuk wrote:

Don't start pointing fingers about whose got "things" for brands. Seriously; it's just for arguments sake. It just totally contradicts all your statements about cardboard being completely inadequate for a proper quality seal. My argument is: The plastic collars are *UNNECESSARY*. The synthetic bag is necessary for the filtration, but given other brands still use a cardboard collar, it makes me think all that plastic Miele uses for their collars could be used for their vacuums or other. Also, a bag doesn't have suction, a vacuum does, and what do you mean "not supplying the same machine"? Just curious.

Hertz wrote:
No I'll think you'll find that it was YOU who brought up the question of a cardboard seal being used as a environmentally friendly substance on a bag against Miele's plastic holders which you find unnecessary. This is what your original topic infers. The question of sealing did not enter this debate until later. My statements do not contradict - but rather offer an independent opinion which has put your nose out of joint! You seem to think that Electrolux supply the same machines that you have (wherever you are, clearly it isn't in the UK) but Electrolux have CAPPED THEIR RANGE FOR THE UK. For example:

Take a look at http://www.electrolux.co.uk/node408.aspx?categoryid=15688 and you'll find that the UK only has basic vacuums such as the Powerplus, Powerlite, BAGGED cylinder vacuums, several base BAGLESS models and POWERLITE uprights. Infact the whole line up that the UK are getting are CHINESE built vacuums. AEG UK doesn't offer any of the vacuums that you can additionally find in other countries either. The UK don't have the ULTRA ONE vacuums let alone any of the ones available in the U.S and other countries and I said THIS BEFORE. I'm using the UK ones as the base for my experience, having owned both models I can say that the cardboard holders are next to useless and none of them have proper seals - oh wait, I'm mistaken - there's a fold in flap that is supposed to constitute as a seal  - sorry but a 3/4 flap on the Powerlite bags - doesn't give me extra confidence.

What comes across here is actual ownership of the vacuums. All you've done here is relayed company policy and I've done that too - the difference here is, ACTUAL experience of ownership counteracts what the companies would have you believe and against Miele, their HYCLEAN bags were not perfect, a fact that I had written a review online about it and Miele had sent me a letter asking if I would send the faulty bags in to see what went wrong. The result of that is obviously a redesign called "Air Clean," with improved design. Still, they use a plastic holder. I know they are recycled and if the box carries a recycling sign, REGARDLESS of the fact that they are plastic against cardboard, I'm more than happy to trust in the fact IN THIS INSTANCE that the WHOLE product is recycleable.

After a lengthy email to Electrolux, I had a response from a customer service division who says that the new Ultra One bagged vacuum is FINALLY COMING TO THE UK. However it won't be under the Electrolux badge, but rather AEG. Electrolux have done this before; and the prices will be higher than Electrolux vacs alone. Whilst I look forward to the new Ultra One, Electrolux have played up to consumers "thoughts" that by putting the AEG "made in Germany," tag, buyers will assume their new product range for 2010 sits in the same circles as Miele, Sebo and other premium companies. Watch this space!

Hi vacmanuk,

Here's the AEG URL: http://www.aeg-electrolux.co.uk/node143.asp?CategoryID=4554

Venson

vacmanuk wrote:

Outside of "glorifying" the brand name to command more $, have the past AEG Electrolux products been particularly better considering the higher prices?

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:
This is in no way uncommon w/ companies.  If we look at AB Electrolux Group, we can see that they have always done this.  In the U.S., they had Eureka as their regular line, Sanitaire as their premium/heavy duty special vac shop line,  White-Westinghouse as their "budget" line and for a short time, they allowed distribution of the Viking line as another vac shop premium.  AB Electrolux did the same thing with their other appliance lines like major appliance brands.

Companies want a large slice of the pie and this is the way to do it.  You may think that they have a small slice of 5% , but w/the other brands they hold, they could hold  something like 7%.  It is all about reaching as much of the market as possible. Kirby had done it in the past w/Douglas.  They sold their premium Kirby, but also had a budget line-Douglas.  Not everyone can buy a Kirby, but some can afford a Douglas.  Some will not touch a Douglas power team, but were interested in a Kirby.

It is all about business.

vacmanuk wrote:

Well here's the opinion of an extremely enthusiastic and apparently knowleadgable vacuum collector who has extensive experience with very high-end vacuums like Sebo, Rainbow, and Aerus Electrolux, and he states that his UltraOne is *THE BEST* vacuum he's ever used, from performance, to noise, to suction, and the build quality seems good - not the best, but from what I can see, it looks good - possible even excellent. Here's his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbMnAnUXJCE&fmt=18

I know this guy well on YT. I'll reserve my judgement until I try it. However a few interesting points: 1) The mini turbo tool is similar to the ones Electrolux have in the UK and as such don't have the flip lock to unlock the whole body. Thus you have to undo two screws to get into to clean it out. 2) I'd be doubtful whether this cylinder would be able to have lightweight pipes like Sebo's K series. I like lightweight pipes - makes it so much easier to lift, even if the you tube video owner may think otherwise with the tools that he says. I also find Sebo's pipes are a heck of lot lighter than Miele's ones. However I am impressed with the motor noise on this Ultra One.

Hertz wrote:

As of late.....i do believe BP has overshadowed the plastic/metal in bag/filter  situation....perhaps they could use all the used bags/filters  to help soak up some of that oil...i mean, they got hair in a tube.....im sure a nice full vac bag will soak up quite a bit of oil. Call it double duty...it could work....and this will give the [plastic/metal] bagged vacuum/filter  makers a chance to redeem themselves in the eyes of the enviromentalists/groups.

Repairs and services on vacs are up.....this is the time to go to all the vac shops and get all the used full vac bags they have and send them down there.....why not do that and get double duty out of them....any amount they soak up is just that much less contaminating our ocean and shores.....im sure you wont be turned away by the vac shops and by lunch youll have a truck load to deliver....if we can put a man on the moon [i think?].. this could work....use your connections/make calls  to make this happen. im sure they/you are willing to do whatever it takes to solve the problem.....this really can work.  so are you on board/their desperate for help , and tell us what they said.....i cant see them turning you or the idea away.....not on such a burning moral issue anyway....double duty from a plastic and metal cloth/paper  vac bag.....once again a bagged vac saves the day.......bagged is better.

turtle

Mike_W wrote:

Companies are expanding market share with more household appliances and acquiring brands of the same products. 

Carmine D.