Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

I recently visited a local vac shop, not the one run by a close friend. We discussed Dyson and other brands. He maintains that Dyson WAYYY overestimated the cost of returns/warranty repairs when he invaded the US vac market, which is why the Dysons were given a 5 yr warranty. He said Dyson, despite rumors to the contrary, is making money hand over fist, and show no sign of slowing down. Even though the hose is excluded as a warranty part, Dyson is issuing repair authorizations for them. He also said he is selling Dyson dirt canisters, cords, roller brushes, and hoses like there is no tomorrow.  He said Dyson is ready to cut prices when necessary to boost flagging sales.  The DC-07 will make a reappearance at  $299 or lower when the time is right.

I stopped by Best Buy to purchase a memory card  for my camera, and wandered down the vac aisle, of course. 33 full size vacuums on display. THREE bagged machines, all uprights. Other than Dyson, only ONE canister, a Dirt Devil straight suction. Dyson had on display three cans and four uprights, over 20% of the vac sku offerings!  There are new and interesting things in the vac shops, but nothing has changed at BBR where most of America buys their vacuums.  According to him, Panasonic has lost the contract to build Sears canisters.
All of this is, of course, excellent news for Kirby.

CarmineD wrote:
For environmentalists the thought of using a permanent washable fabric bag means no harms to cutting trees down to save on paper. That may work for them but for the moment let me give you an example.

A cost of Vax genuine dust bags cost between £5-99 and double that for the same pack of 5 bags plus an extra filter kit. The permanent bag for the Vax canister is priced at the same as the extra kit dust bag kit, or for simpler understanding, double the price of the genuine dust bags. Most buyers these days tend to buy copy bags so they're even cheaper, sometimes half the price of genuine bags and only Sebo in the UK have released information about warnings of using copy bags (seen here: http://www.cleaningmag.com/articles/view/the-real-thing/0). I dont think most buyers listen when it comes to buying bags and will just go for whatever is available. Having owned the Vax canister myself and having had to pay out for three shake out bags in the machine's life time I have now returned to using paper dust bags. Simply because it is a dirty and messy affair when it comes to emptying and the poor cloth material doesn't last long after it has been washed and dried. Certainly my view would change personally if Vax updated the actual material to withstand machine wash, of which it carries correct and exact wash instructions.

At this moment in time Carmine, I don't think it's prudent to consider that the permanent dust bag is the next best thing. Certainly over the infinitely disposable idea which gets rid of dust once and for all out of the vacuum cleaner it makes a lot more sense to consider this than dirty shake out bags. Here's a quote I picked up after reading a short review following a Hitachi vacuum cleaner by someone:

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/vacuum-cleaners/hitachi-cv790.asp

"...We bought our little Hitachi in 1996. It is the 1100W model. I have been delighted with the performance. It is well made and has excellent suction. The only thing that I don't like about the CV790 is the permanent dustbag. It is a bonus not to have to buy paper bags, but cleaning the clothbag is a dirty affair. The best method seems to be to brush the dust off in a bucket of water; otherwise one is covered in a cloud of muck. I repaired vacuum cleaners for a living for seven years and can certainly recommend the Hitachi CV790 as a well made, reliable machine. They are now discontinued, but parts are still available from Charles Hyde.

If you see one for a good price in a second hand shop it may be a good buy. However, do be aware that the cloth dust bag needs to be thoroughly cleaned on a regular basis in order to maintain good suction and prolong motor life..."

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi,

Just for history's sake, American Electrolux, Model XXX on, did not use pre-filters.  There was not a hing between the bag, whether permanent or disposable, and the fans and motor but a perforated grill or bag cage.  However, Electrolux models bore an exhaust filter until the coming of the Model G (save for the "hospital" model that I've seen few of) when it was dispensed with.  That model and others relied only upon the multi-layer disposable dust bag for many years until someone decided to go back to exhaust filters come the Renaissance series and its secondary models. 

The interesting thing here is that these cleaners despite the less than fancy filtering arrangement held up well and didn't begin to be reffered to as "dust blowers' until salesmen hawking other brands fell into the habit of it about ten years ago.

Lux permanent bags -- and I've emptied many -- were not all that difficult to empty and, depending on how you look at it, were less complicated to deal with than a present-day bagless machine's collection bin.  If you've got debris stuck inside a bagless bin that you have to dig out by hand the dust exposure may prove higher. 

The whole issue has a lot to do with consumer mind-set.  We are daily being fed info as to what toss-away thing  we can buy or what we can spared touching.  There are still those who see life as livable using a string mop along with those that believe they'll be killed by some dread disease if their hands are allowed to touch the water in a mop bucket.  The latter feeling is far more profitable to manufacturers and it will be a long time before they'll be thinking about dissuading us.

Venson

CarmineD wrote:
Maybe that is why I like you so much Carmine.  Who else would debate with a nut like me?

Venson wrote:
My old Hoover Junior soft bag came with an optional reuseable dust bag, Venson and it filled up with more dust than the dirt bag. I still have it somewhere. However emptying it was a nightmare. However I take your point but the UK uprights changed from dirty fan systems to clean fan systems - and only then when clean fan systems came on board with less destruction to the fan impellers, that's when the pre-filters were born.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

Let me give you a demonstrable history lesson...  there was the tired vacuum industry and the tired bagged vacuum prior to Dyson and there is the tired vacuum industry and the tired bagged vacuum (in smaller numbers) alongside Dyson.

As for your so-called facts...  you have none.  Outside of lying you produce and very rarely produce anything factual.  At what point (age) did you begin this most despicable lying habit?  Early childhood and perhaps a coping mechanism (gone bad)?

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dib-stir:  Until you put 55 years in the vacuum business as your own boss I'll pass on your history lessons. I forgot more than you'll ever learn.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

The HOOVER Junior is circa about 1949-50 and after.  Dust bag is over 60 years old.  It was probably one of the worse if not the worse designed in the industry for dumping.  Smallish bag clamp opening for dumping.  Very small, probably comparable to hand cleaner openings, bag opening on the vacuum.  The vacuum end of the bag always clogged even before full and the bag needed dumping.  It was an ideal candidate for an after market paper conversion, which I almost always convinced customers to consider before buying.

Don't think in terms of one type bag is the best for all people in all circumstances.  This is the shortsightedness of the die-hard bagless inventors/fans in the industry.  They believe bagless is the best for all customers in all cases over paper bags.  It's a false premise.  Be open enough in thinking to believe that vacuum consumers may run the gamut of what they want and buy from bagless to bagged including permanent reusable cloth like.  Especially with the advances in filtration and cloth.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
After 1958 Hoover's Junior models had paper bags as standard and it wasn't until the early 1980s a top fill dust channel was added. The 1980's Hoover Junior U1104 model has a a top fill bag system. The opening is huge and the clamp is similar. Paper bags are 6 litres capacity.  Filtration wasn't part of its design back then but you reuse the standard Genuine Hoover bags once it had been emptied again.

vacmanuk wrote:

I could easily see a similar lightweight upright now, even top fill, with a reusable cloth like HEPA bag, as a popular seller for small dwellings occupied by singles or couples with no little ones.  Priced at $150.  It would be very desirable as a competitor with ORECK and other lightweight uprights both bagged and bagless.

Carmine D.

In the UK there just aren't any brands that offer permanent bagged uprights now which is a pity but the bags have been proved to be messy which is why brands are probably afraid of putting the bags into them - lets not forget brands are out to make money on their products so whilst its a good idea to have such a vacuum on the market, companies would try and make a killing somewhere for the buyer to constantly buy something for the upright. The $150 pricing you quote does put it directly into a budget market in the UK although the cheapest bagged upright would be Chinese made and carries "Bush" name, the current price being £37.00 which translates as $56-80.