Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

James Dyson has voiced his feelings in regard to what it will take to save Britain's manufacturing industry in a report commissioned by the country's Conservative Party.  An interesting read and plenty of UK reader comments follow.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/7400742/Sir-James-Dyson-plan-to-fill-UKs-engineering-vacuum.html

M00seUK and vacmanuk, I'll be glad to learn what you think.

Venson

James Dyson isn't stating anything new though. The UK Education system is in a terrible mess; whilst dumming down curriculum to meet the needs of new learners, the whole outlook in the UK isn't exactly new. This is why Curriculum for Excellence is arriving. It won't help the situation overnight but it will bring more positive results in the long term. Looks like Dyson wants immediate improvement and restricting it solely to Science. Trouble is, students need maths and English to get by too and nationally although the government are trying to promote science etc, the national average for learning is well below par. its not without saying that I don't always believe what Dyson has to say regarding how things should be run and stating his thoughts as to what the country should do to meet standards of science is quite ironic. When at a time he popularised his vacuum as being made in the UK, he quickly shifted his workers and production facilities to Asia 10 years later after recession hit us, leaving the UK stranded of jobs, a fact that no one has to say much about other than Dyson being no different to any other "British" owner. Maybe Asia hasn't been as successful with forthcoming Scientists. Whatever the reason is, Dyson's thoughts about what promotion goverment should do in school is a little too late.

Hi Venson, I've been a touch busy of late, but I'll look to pass some thoughts on this topic soon.

On a related note, here's an interview with James Dyson in this press, this week, with a few good insights:-

• Company did better than expected during 2009 "We increased our market share in every country we sell in”
• New product to be unveiled later in 2010 (clue: it will use a mains plug)
• James Dyson due to step down this year as chairman of Dyson Ltd

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article7061037.ece

Excerpted from the interview:

...."He [Dyson] was a billionaire three years ago but won’t mind dropping a notch in the recession.

He has also learnt to understand how others feel. When we met in 1999, he told me he would never pay bonuses to staff. “I think the whole principle is demeaning,” he said.

Now he has changed his tune. “Yes, we have a bonus scheme. I think it was your suggestion,” he says drolly. And the bonuses could be rather good this year, as the company did better than expected in 2009. “We increased our market share in every country we sell in.”

Does it make sense that Sir James Dyson who was counted among the world's top billionaires with $2 B just 3 years ago can fall to multimillionaire and all the while he reports that business is better and better?  If this is how the new UK math works, Cameron got the wrong man for the job when he tapped James.

Carmine D. 

I'm sure if Dysons were actually made in Britain it would also be of help to British Industry.

Well Lucky, that's the thing, it WAS of great help then.

vacmanuk wrote:

No wonder Brown is catching Cameron in all the UK polls.  Brits realize that Cameron tapped the wrong man for the job because James/dyson outsourced his manufacturing production.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I think it's admirable that James Dyson is willing to admit when he is wrong and to adapt to changing times.  Just because he thought bonuses were demeaning, doesn't mean that the employees did.    Perhaps the MAP policy has been adjusted as well due to the rough economy.  A 20% discount isn't really that extreme, particularly in comparison to some of the other big box brands. 

Severus wrote:

Hello Severus:

I agree with you.  It is admirable that James Dyson recognizes errors in judgment and corrects them.  Tho, 10 years is a bit long for the realization to sink in on his turnabout for bonuses. 

On dyson MAP, the higher than 10 percent "advertised" discounts are a factor of both the bad economy and also more importantly the need for dyson to be competitive pricewise with other bagless brands and models.  Even as a niche seller.

Since James and dyson have seen the "light" on these two issues, dyson/staff will become more realistic with their views on bagged vacuums.  Dyson and bagged vacuums are not mutually exclusive in the vacuum industry.  Both can increase and flourish simultaneously rather trhan at the expense of each other.  Even in bad economic times.  If I were a betting man, I'd bet dyson will have to lower prices even more than 20 percent to be competitive in the short. mid, and longterm.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
It's actually been a lot less than 10 years - I recall it being reported around 4 years ago that all Dyson employees were receiving a performance-related bonus for meeting growth targets.

I think it's positive for any business to offer a profit share / bonus scheme to all employees - I'm doing the same with my business.  When I was in previously in employement, only the sales team got bonuses, based on their sales  commisions. Unlike the people who actually had to do their badly spec'd projects... now that *was* demeaning :-)

M00seUK wrote:

Hi M00seUK:

I'm relying on the article you posted here dated March 14, 2010 with James Dyson interview.  I excerpted the verbage about bonuses from it.  "Now" is the operative word to me.  It doesn't mean 4 years ago.  With the realization that the article/interview misrepresented this issue on this point [intentionally or not], I beg kindly to revise my statement to read instead:  6 years is a long time to come to a realization of a turnaround on employee bonuses. 

For any business man in James' position to hold such an opinion at all, at any time regardless of length, is well to put it bluntly simply outrageous.  Worse still, it's even more shocking for James to say/print that the dyson bonus about face came as a direct result of the interviewer's suggestion 10 years ago.   Such outrageous statements by James Dyson, from a business perspective, cast doubts on him as a business leader.  It's as incredible as a decline from $2 Billion to multi-million in net worth in 3 years and saying during the same time periods that his company's profits and market shares are increasing year over year.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hello Carmine,
As if often the case, we're discussing a series of unknowns. What we do know is that 10 years ago, Dyson didn't believe in offering bonuses. Here's a quote from an interview dated in 1999:-

"...likewise, he thinks an interest in money is rather vulgar. He is not a fan of paying people bonuses to hit targets. 'I think the whole principle of bonuses is demeaning. If someone needs a bonus to motivate them, they are not the sort of person who should be in business, in my view. Somebody is here because they believe in what we're doing and want to go with that and make a difference, and get great satisfaction themselves, and achieve things."

What we don't know is when exactly this policy was reversed - it might well have been two years later. Equally, while the interviewer at the time was likely one of a number of people to raise the question of performance-related bonuses, I very much doubt he was the only one.

It's worth bearing in mind is that the Dyson in 1999 is quite different to the company it is now. Back then, they would have been investing in R&D, trying to expand production (against local frustrations) to meet international distribution demands. With cashflow likely a big issue, it was about more about making people believe in a cause, than paying out speculative bonuses and drag down the bottom line.

In recent times, with cashflow demands more relaxed, it's now about getting new, reliable, exciting, well-marketed products out there. Everyone shares in that responsibility and they recognise that a bonuses structure gives a good return on investment. By all accounts, there's been a fair number of performance goals met over the years. Nothing 'outrageous' in that at all, in my view. You're blowing this far out of proportion.

Carmine,
It sounds like you are saying...  people in the UK should remove their faith in those who promote invention and innovation and instead put faith in the ideas of men like you.  Correct me if I’m wrong, I believe the bigger money is in inventiveness (Dyson’s universe) vice slaving to a ‘hole in the wall’ business (your universe).


Dyson Invents Big

M00seUK wrote:

M00seUK:  With all due respect, the interview in 1999 is not in question here.  It's the interview you posted dated March 14, 2010.  In particular the excerpt I posted for the reasons I posted. 

I put forth the following question:  What was dyson's vacuum market share by percentage in the UK in 2004?  What is it in the UK today? 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dibster:  You're wrong, as usual, just as James was wrong in 1999 about bonuses and wrong with MAP of 10 percent.  Money is made with effective and wise business decisions and leadership.  It has nothing to do with faith and only a small amount to do with inventiveness.  500 dyson engineers is overkill and cost ineffective by all and any standards of business measures. 

A business leader who refuses to pay employee bonuses based on a misguided opinion that doing so is insulting and demeaning is in itself insulting and demeaning to employees.  James made his fortune largely through parlaying 2 large lawsuit payouts in a robust world/consumer economy.  He used slick bagless marketing and outsourcing manufacturing jobs from the UK to a contractor housed in Malaysia. 

It's been downhill for James in recent years [since 2006] in large part due to his own business decisions and product blunders/failures.  He alone is the blame.  2006: James' net worth was $2 Billion.  2009 James' net worth is multi-millions.  That's a big monetary fall and not due solely to the economic recession as the article that M00seUK posted here would have us believe. 

Carmine D.

It's possible that the vacuum business (other than handhelds) is doing well, but the hand dryers and bladeless fans are a drag on Dyson's bottom line.  Likely margins are down on vacuums.   The washer fiasco is likely still dragging down Dyson's net worth. 

It's possible that Dyson's net worth has dropped considerably due to charitable contributions.   

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I know small-men like to throw rocks at big-men (doers, job creators, life changers).  It’s an ugly habit and something good men unfortunately have to deal with and young people have to recognize, that is...  to decipher and then believe in those who ‘do’ (things big) or believe in those ‘who’ve never done’ (anything big).


Dyson Invents [lots of things] Big

Interesting interview with Sir James:    http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article7061037.ece

From The Sunday Times

Apparently James is planning to step down as CEO. 

And you might think he is preparing for something, as he lets slip that he will shortly stand down as chairman of Dyson, the business he founded in 1992. Bob Ayling, long-term board member and former boss of British Airways, will replace him. The company’s chief executive, Martin McCourt, another long-term ally, will remain in day-to-day control.

Dyson himself will have a new job title. “I’ll probably be called chief designer,” he says. “It’s just to make sure there is proper continuation should I go under a bus.”

...

Dyson doesn’t need anyone to warn interviewers off certain topics. He will talk about wealth if you want, though he is barely interested. That could be because he is worth more than £920m in the forthcoming Sunday Times Rich List. He was a billionaire three years ago but won’t mind dropping a notch in the recession.

I guess in American dollars, James is still a billionaire (£920m). 

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

Certainly a real possibility.  But being old school, I won't believe it until it's proved true.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dibster:

 I was a successful independent vacuum business owner/operator for over 40 years.  I didn't slave to any boss except me.  I didn't make my fortune by suing others and/or bashing my competition.  I had no business complaints filed against me by any customers in all that time.  I sold the business to another independent who still has the store and business in the same location.  Then, I spent 1the next 15 years as a self-employed industry consultant before retiring in August 2006.  I have degrees in accounting, economics and business from what many would consider an Ivy League University.  I think that I know and speak authoritatively on all matters of vacuum related business.  I also know good business leaders and wise business decisions.  Just as I know and recognize the bad ones.  Big and/or small men and/or women with and without rock throwing abilitie have no bearing on the successful outcomes of businesses.  Both sized men/women are equally capable and/or incapable of being good and/or bad business managers. 

After more than 3 years into retirement, I'm pleased to say I still receive offers of employment and contractual bid requests.  All of which I have so far graciously turned down.  

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

Forbes March 29, 2010 List of World's Richest puts James Dyson exactly at $1B in net worth.  This is a decline in net worth since first making the list several years ago with a reported $1.6 Billion.  James is tied in last place [number 937] with 8 others.  He just made the cutoff for the list.  I presume that's what is meant by not minding dropping a notch in a recession.  However, more accurately and truthfully, tied in the last position at 937 puts James 236 notches [names] down from last year.  

According to Forbes, the net worth valuation is based on an estimate, in many cases not even vetted/verified, at one point in time: Feb 12, 2010.  The amount may have declined/increased since the Forbes publication.  I presume a disingenuous person, knowing the approximate time of valuation, could delay debt payments and expense payments in order to meet the $1 Billion cutoff.  I don't say any one, let alone Sir James, would actually do that although it is a possibility according to Forbes.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote: 

If you use the 920 million British pounds figure from the Sunday Times, it is equivalent (with an exchange rate of 1.51317 USD to 1 British pound) to around 1.39 billion US dollars.  Given that his wealth is tied up in his private company, who knows what he's really worth.  One guess is likely as good as another.  Perhaps the British estimate is higher because they include more good will in the company's valuation.    James would be very foolish to be concerned about the Forbes rankings. 

It's curious that he's thinking about turning over the CEO reigns of the company.  Perhaps he sees that he's made some poor decisions (e.g. washing machine, hiring Dustmite as a spokesperson ...), and he's decided to stick with design.   the fact that he's willing to put someone more business savvy in charge of the company tells me that he's smart enough to know that he's in over his head.  

Severus wrote:

Hi Severus:

Forbes is "the" list for the world of the "rich" and "famous."  Sort of like Consumer Reports and product sales/recognition. 

On all other points, I agree with you.  Harkens back to a statement I made here and elsewhere years ago that engineers make terrible CEO's especially of their own companies.  Steve Jobs and Apple are the rare business exception.  Typical of Sir James, he took too long to come to that business realization.  Not choosing a family member, as one would naturally expect, to take the reigns of the helm speaks volumes.  As well it will be a constant cause of problems for the new dyson CEO and its employees.  Many of which are already insulted and demeaned by Sir james.  Expect a cut in the 2500 dyson Malmesbury employees as the first order of business by the new CEO.  Wonder how secure Dibster's job is?  Should have gotten out when the gettin was good.  As the saying goes:  With all your getting, get wisdom.

Dyson's stepping down now from all operational business ties [Chief Designer is a made up job for him to stay on the company dole] guarantees with almost absolute certainty that he will not make the Forbes list next year.  I'd say he came to the realization this was his last year on the list.  Good timing for a change on his part.  Last year and last place. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I don't subscribe to Forbes, but I was curious whether there were any other vacuum related people on the list.   It would be curious to know if their personal fortunes dropped similarly to Sir Jame's. 

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine, can you explain to me why I should pay any real attention to the 'reported' values placed on people who compile for Forbes and the various 'Rich lists'?

While these 'estimated' values make for entertaining league tables and interesting figures for news articles, the accuracy of them is open to interpretation.

The difference between exact net worth and estimated will vary from person to person. If you know from public filings that Steve Jobs has x stock in Apple, y stock in Disney and assets worth z you can calculate an approximate net worth at that moment in time and track it as the investment markets rise or fall. You might add a figure for cash in the bank, based on past returns, but it's likely the estimated figure would be far out from the actual by a fair margin.

With someone in James Dyson's position, there's even less to go on. The Dyson family's biggest asset is 100% ownership of Dyson Ltd. Being a privately-held company, next to no financial information is publicly available. There's no quarterly release of comparative sales data with margins, no stock market value.

How well the business is doing is solely based on what spectators think might be happening on the balance sheet. They might conclude: "Hrmm... recession, people with less money, credit. It's possible this will have a negative impact on high priced goods, such as vacuums. Dyson will possibly sell less than in previous years, so we'll knock x off our valuation of the business."

If we're to believe what James Dyson said in the interview, sales are even better than previous years. Also, if as reported, a business has been able to reinvent a desktop fan and sell it $330, clearing out their 3-month allocation in a matter of weeks, I'd say that it's a reasonable indicator that they're in good form and while subjective, you might conclude that James Dyson is worth more than two years ago ...for all it matters to some.

M00seUK wrote:

MooseUK,

Is there any news of other companies wanting to buy motors or license the motor technology that Dyson has developed for the tiny yet powerful motors?   It would seem like these would have a lot of potential applications in other products - if they can get the noise level lowered. 

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

To my knowledge Sir James Dyson is the only vacuum maker on the list, to his credit.  But, dyson is wholly owned by him and his family members so it is expected he would fall and rise based solely on the company's fortunes.

To summarize:  The 2008 list had 793 names.  This year [2009] saw a rise to 1,011.  Only 12 percent of the returnees from 2008 saw their fortunes fall in 2009.  The majority saw their fortunes soar in 2009.  Average net worth of the Forbes Richest is $3.5 Billion in 2009.  This is up $500,000 million from the average in 2008.  There are 97 new members.  30 members fell off the list from 2008.  Another 13 died.

It is my understanding based on what Forbes prints that over 2/3 of the consistent Forbes subscribers have a minimum net worth of at least ONE MILLION DOLLARS.  I have subscribed since the 70's.

Carmine D.

PS: I was more a fan of the Forbes magazine when the current editor-in-chief's father, Malcolm was in charge.  Steve is a smart and savvy business man and I met/enjoy talking with him.  But Malcolm was a business man from my era.

M00seUK wrote:

Yes I can.  If you are in business these persons on the Forbes list are excellent source of business.  If you are an investor [read gambler], the businesses run by these individuals are excellent places to put your money. 

Carmine D.

i think we're going off topic here though. It's one thing being in a business, owning a business and building investments. A lot of it has to do with Economy.

vacmanuk wrote:

As I recall the evolution of Forbes wealthiest and Sir James Dyson, it originated in March 2008 when Sir James was featured by and in gthe Forbes World's Richest for his $1.6 B dyson enterprise with Forbes commentary and numbers on his latest business invention the dyson Air Blade.  At that point in time, Dib-ster a fellow country man of yours, posted the Forbes link and summary here and ir received alot of follow up posts.  I don't recall any objections then that such posts/discussions are off-topic: i.e economic related versus vacuums related. 

Recent and past discussions about irobot for the most part have been off topic but related to vacuums on the fringes.  The fact that in the first 6 months of their launch in the Fall of 2002 in the US, over a half million irobots were sold.  Since then, the sales estimates in the US are tens of millions.  In the spring of 2006 when the company went public, irobot's stock price was $12 plus per share.  Recently, SEVERUS posted a link here which reported irobot's international sales increased in the last quarter by over 30 percent.  To which I posted that the stock price, despite the worse recession since the Great Depression of the 1930's was holding steady at $17 plus.  Are these discussions off topic?  In the strictest sense, perhaps.  But with a more broad view they probably explain why other vacuum makers, who were talked about as developing robotics for years and years here, have not entered the market. 

As a courtesy to those who ask here, if questions are directed to me whether directly on topic or on the fringes, or economic in nature, I will answer here if I know the answer.  Posters frequently PM me too with questions and I will answer in that venue when they do.  As you have in the past.  I much prefer that the questions posed directly to me be edited out before I post the answers, if they are deemed off topic.  Rather than have my posts with the answers edited off and be told that the answers are off topic. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmen,

 Let's hope people avoid putting their hard-earned money and their kids into so-called Ivy League universities you attended. These educations seem to a tanked for you... or certainly in terms of dollar value they been a loser. Again, you're in no position to criticize men like James Dyson outside of your scope... that is, swapping parts, stocking your store and maybe just maybe evaluating apples to apples.

You need to haul-a$$ to a shrink and have that jealously and lying beyond belief checked out.   But of course, many in your trade suffer with this too.


Dyson Invents Big

Dibster:

I attended and graduated with these degrees on a full ride scholarship making the dean's list every semester and graduating in just 3 years working full-time all the while.

I know you are jealous of me/my success.  But isn't this thread about Sir James Dyson?  Not me.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dyson is in the news today with ambitious plans scale up new product development, by employing 350 more people in R&D - doubling the number of existing staff:-

Dyson goes on recruitment drive to develop its brave new world

"The British company whose futuristic designs led to the reinvention of the vacuum cleaner is planning to push the boundaries still further by hiring 350 engineers and scientists to work on new products."

James Dyson: “We are doing very well despite the recession and we have made the decision to increase our spend on R&D. It may be difficult to find 350 suitably qualified people, [but] despite the country’s failing in investment in education in the engineering sector I am sure we will find the right people. It is vital that Dyson continues to invest to stay at the forefront of industry.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/industrials/article7107878.ece

If they indeed follow this though, it's certainly a bold move for the company. Coming out of a recession and adding, say, 50 skilled positions would be encouraging - 350 positions is something else. For a private company, they must have a fair amount of board-level optimism and funding in place.

Thanks M00seUK for the dyson update.  As usual sounds great.  Makes for great press.  Especially in the politically charged air of UK these days.  If Tony Blair or the Liberal democrats defeat David Cameron, Sir James bold strategy may wane.

Of note in the article, dyson financial results for 2009 have not been issued yet.  Sir James is still despondent over Tony Blair's snub/thumbs downon dyson's engineering HS.  Seems dyson is turning away from vacuums for more pie in the sky inventions.  Nice to dream big. 

Not noted ion the article, Euro is taking a beating with the financial crisis in Greece.  At $1.38 now I believe if not lower.  Expected to go lower.  Other countries in Europe can follow Greece too, downward.  Housing market is suffering in the UK as badly as the USA.  Maybe worse.  All doesn't bode well for the new bold dyson strategy.  Is it more politics and personal?  Time will tell. 

Carmine D.

Hello Carmine,
Always glad to have your unique take on positive news for Dyson, lest this place ever become a fawning Dyson worship forum.

I'd hope that whatever government is formed in the upcoming elections, that they realise the long-term gains of encouraging high-tech innovation, alongside the returns in the short-term (when times are good) from the financial services.

I'm still not personally 100% sure if the fortunes of the Euro directly affect Dyson? It's reported that Dyson products are imported in to the UK, then exported to the various markets, presumably with value-added, which classes them partially as a net export, by value. While the exchange rate of Euro would influence the value of exports to Europe, I don't think it would effect, for example, the value of exports to North America, which would be covered by the USD / GBP exchange rate. At least, that's the argument we often hear in the UK, against adapting the Euro, is that it would restrict businesses here to a common rate.

What I observe from this announcement is that Dyson is more than a little PR savvy. In one swoop, they project a message that:- 1) Their products are reportedly very popular 2) They have a pledge towards dramatically increasing their UK-based skilled workforce 3) They're getting the word out there that they're hiring (who needs to rely on expensive recruitment agencies, if you're high profile enough?).

There also give themselves some 'wiggle room'. They could announce in 6 months time that they could only fill 50 of the positions locally and the other 300 R&D jobs will be filled internationally. Now, there's nothing uncommon with that - plenty of businesses fill their research positions across the world, wherever they can find the right talent. However, Dyson is frequently put under the great scrutiny from a cynical British public, aided with the help of the cynical British press.

Going by a flurry of recent patent filings, with high quality drawings, it looks highly likely that later in the year Dyson will announce a range of kitchen appliances, which will feature in most cases, their digital motor technology. If the trials of these products have been positive, then they'll be looking to prepare and capitalise with some spotless PR and the added optimism that an increase in revenue can support all these new job positions.

Hiya MOOseUK,

Hope all is well for you on your side of the sea.  We'll have to see how this announcement proves out.  It sounds no more than a non-commital chat with the press.  People do it all the time for the sake of business.  You do have to entertain them now and then so they'll keep your name out in front of the public for reasons other than scandal.

At the tail-end of the article: The company’s recruitment drive comes after new figures revealed that there has been no relief from the downsizing of British industry. Statistics from the CBI last week showed that while the manufacturing industry is beginning to recover, deep job cuts of last year are not being reversed. Long-term statistics revealed that the British manufacturing sector has failed to raise employment levels since 2004. The company’s recruitment drive comes after new figures revealed that there has been no relief from the downsizing of British industry. Statistics from the CBI last week showed that while the manufacturing industry is beginning to recover, deep job cuts of last year are not being reversed. Long-term statistics revealed that the British manufacturing sector has failed to raise employment levels since 2004. The company’s recruitment drive comes after new figures revealed that there has been no relief from the downsizing of British industry. Statistics from the CBI last week showed that while the manufacturing industry is beginning to recover, deep job cuts of last year are not being reversed. Long-term statistics revealed that the British manufacturing sector has failed to raise employment levels since 2004. The company’s recruitment drive comes after new figures revealed that there has been no relief from the downsizing of British industry. Statistics from the CBI last week showed that while the manufacturing industry is beginning to recover, deep job cuts of last year are not being reversed. Long-term statistics revealed that the British manufacturing sector has failed to raise employment levels since 2004.

At the beginning of the article 560 jobs were regarded as lost due to the company's moving work elsewhere.  350 jobs lost doest quite match the amount lost.  As well, there comes another statement by Dyson himself as to the big IF of finding enough qualified persons for the proposed research and development positons -- It may be difficult to find 350 suitably qualified people, [but] despite the country’s failing in investment in education in the engineering sector I am sure we will find the right people.

Sounds to me like a deliberate opening and excuse for backing off on this whole deal later on.  In any event, we're not talking either skilled or unskilled labor here -- we're talking about the acqusition of real talent -- especially in light of the work called for and the salary proposed.  People just don't give away 45,000 pound yearly salaries and  I doubt if those of a mind to do business are prepared to wait for UK education standards to rise to their level of requirement if they are as low as Dyson's iindictment\ infers.  That kind of thing does not happen over night.

Last of all, worldwide economic improvement should be his barometer since he sells worldwide.  Thus far even myself -- just another dumb shopper -- does not see the advantage in his claimed intentions in that, bottom line, you have to have someone to sell the stuff you develop to.  Research and develop all you want but if there's no one to buy the final product, what's the good?

Venson

Hello Venson, M00seUK:

Seems my unique view is shared.  I have from the start cast a very weary eye on all things dyson, as Sir James is not a business man let alone a vacuum man.  He got lucky thanks to the persuasion of BEST BUY management to launch in the USA and 2 successful lawsuits with windfall profits.  3 cheers for all the dyson patents and political manuevering in the UK.  Maybe dyson can finally get a dishwasher to market after 3 years plus of patent filing.  Sadly patent laws accomplish just the opposite of their intent.  Especially when you have filers sitting on patents for years without ever bringing a product to market with the patent.   

Carmine D.

Ah but Carmine you have to admit that hollow fan is a heck of an idea. Why no one ever thought of it before, is beyond me.

Frankly I'd love it if Dyson invents a lawn mower that needs less emptying!

vacmanuk wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble and shoot holes in your dreams but not for the dyson prices.  $300 plus for a 10-12 inch fan?  Don't like the desk top model at that price. Never will.  Prefer a window/portable AC for that price and they are in abundant supply.  As usual, Sir James invents the high price solution for the problem that no one knows/has except him. 

Carmine D.

Not having a fan that has to have its impellers cleaned because of dust forming on them is better in my book Carmine. When Dyson first launched the upright vac in the UK hardly anyone bought them because they were too expensive. However prices do drop due to demand and purchase. It wont be long before Dyson brings a small model to the market. It is a clean proposition when considering an air fan.

Two pieces of news off the back of the Dyson R&D job announcement this week...

Sunday Times Rich List 2010
Whilst I personally think these lists are little more than speculation, if you do follow them you might be interested to learn that James Dyson has seen his net worth rise 64 per cent from GBP 560m to GBP 920m
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8117554.Dyson_cleans_up_in_the_rich_list/

Royal approval for AirBlade
The Sun newspaper reports that Buckingham Palace has been fitted out with the Dyson AirBlade and illustrated by a mock-up photo of the Queen using the hand drier. Perfect news fodder for getting their message in to the tabloids - Dyson's PR machine is as well oiled as ever.

M00seUK wrote:

Hi MOOseUK,

These days that's what it's all about.  Hearsay, sound bytes and video clips to make you feel "fluffy" inside.  I'd ask if in reality the queen sent someone off to Harrod's or wherever to buy a houseful of fans or if Dyson somehow "contributed" to the effort.

Best,

Venson

vacmanuk wrote:

No blades to clean and concern about in AC. 

Carmine D.

M00seUK wrote:

Spelled vacuum wrong in the first sentence.  And is using 2008 financial and wealth results.  Dah!  It's 2010.  Sir James is living in the past glory days.  Time to get a new gig/rap. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
1) Vacuum spelling: It's a local newspaper - they probably can't afford to employ a sub-editor at the moment.
2) 2008 results: To be fair, Dyson only currently have public accounts made up to 31 Dec 2008.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson, yes indeed. There's been a fair number of British companies with good consumer products, but most haven't a clue when it came to good PR. Many had this 'old school' business attitude and were deep down resentful of enquires from journalists. It would be fair to say that Dyson quickly embraced the American style of PR and haven't looked back since.

With the 'royal' airblade sales, I'm sure Dyson would have considered supplying them at cost, if asked. But, I'd imagine the Royal family aren't pushed when it comes to building maintenance costs and so equally, Dyson could have called the shots. One of the benefits of having a unique product offering.

CarmineD wrote:
Air conditioning to my mind is a heavy air/fridge coolant cooled unit. Desk fans and large stand fans are what Dyson's new fan could in theory replace.

M00seUK wrote:

M00seUK:

You can only spend what you have now, not what you had Dec 31, 2008.  WRT spelling vacuum, who needs an editor to get it right?

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

Not so in the USA.  A/C units both window and room are lightweight, portable and available at prices comparable to dyson's 10-12 inch desk top fan at $300.

Carmine D.

EU countries came to the financial rescue of Greece this weekend.  Word in the news here is the UK is next to go belly up, even before Italy, Ireland, Spain and Portugal, with debt levels comparable to Greece and worse.

Carmine D.

Funny that, there's an announcement nationally that the house prices in the UK have suddenly gone up and cheap mortgages on house buying has been reinstated.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

My church had it's annual fundraiser family festival this weekend. One of the silent auction items was a Dyson "bladeless" fan.  There was a lot of interest in the fan and how it works.  I don't know whether the interest will translate into sales.  I don't know what the final bid was, but the bid was around $270 (list $320) the last time I checked (with at least 15 minutes to go).   My church is in a fairly affluent area, and many would not think twice about spending over $300 on a desk fan. 

If the final cap and trade bill coming out of congress is too draconian, desk fans may be the norm rather than air conditioning in the future.  Or more likely, you'll air condition to 80 degrees and use fans to make it feel less miserable. 

CarmineD wrote:
The information I have is that a window air conditioner uses 1,200 watts while running. A Dyson air multiplier uses 1/30th of this, at 40 watts.

As Severus mentions, if a personal Dyson air multipliers can be used, in certain instances, as a more pleasant category of 'fan' in place of an a/c unit, there are financial advantages to the user and environmental advantages as a whole.

Make no mistake, there's a very substantial mark-up on the Dyson fan. They have the marketing mix; something unique, which has reduced running costs, a status symbol of sorts, from which they can make a very nice return on their investment. Sound familar? It's not far off how they profited from their vacuum cleaners.

Like all consumer goods, the RRP will fall in time. Dyson just need to keep an eye on the sales numbers and stimulate then with small discounts. Unlike, say LCD TVs, they don't (at least for the moment) have any direct competition.

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

This is the way here in Las Vegas.  80 is the indoor temp during the summer months [when outdoor temps reach 115-120 easily in the sun] with fans to ameliorate the AC.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

Actually, it's not funny.  It's serious.

http://wallstreetblips.dailyradar.com/story/warning-signal-on-u-k-debt/

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/04/30/216736/the-uk-is-the-next-greece/

The second link is from the Financial Times on Friday April 30, 2010 before the EU countries bailed out Greece with $147 BILLION. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Not going away vacmanuk.  Market declines in your country and mine today are attributed to the Greece collapse and more importantly who's next.  Euro at a new low $1.30.  UK election any day now.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Stocks-slide-as-new-doubts-apf-2098108080.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

Carmine D.

M00seUK wrote:

Hi M00seUK,

This all a matter of whose home you speak of.  First, so that no one's money is missed, there is no standard size for American household air conditioners.  They size outputwise from 5,000 BTUs to 28,000 and will run on 120 volts.  They price as low as $100 and has as high as $900 or so depending on brand.  It is quite easy here to find an air conditioner tailored for your needs and for small or standard dwelling spaces its even possible to get decent air conditioner for under $300 negating the need for additional money spent on fans.

Personally, my plan this years is a 20-inch whole house window fan.  I will use it to expel hot air inside and draw in fresh cooler air.  Utility prices are climbing and will strongly influence how many of us go about making a comfortable home environment. However, $300 desk fan won't prove much of a solution.

Venson

Venson wrote:

HI Venson:

As a person like you Venson who lived through the eras of small desk fans made by GE and Westinghouse to larger room/window fans made by the same brands and others like Hunter and Vornado then to window and room air conditioners to central air, I believe A/C units are by far better hands down than fans.  As I said to SEVERUS, here in LV we use central air set at 78-80 during the really hot heat days of summer with fans for ameliorating the AC.  We have 52 inch ceiling fans [hunter] in all the living and bed rooms and back yard porch.  With oscillating room tower fans [that can be programmed at various speeds for different time intervals] in two rooms to assist where heat tends to build in our home.  The ceiling fans and tower fans are considerably less than $300 each as my memory recalls.  More like $70-$150 for decent brands and decent performance.  My point is simple and the same as with all dyson products.  The dyson products [regardless of the products] are so uncompetitive with the current status quo in performance and prices that most mainstream US buyers will have absolutely no reason to purchase.  Yes, for those who have more money than sense and have to be the first to have the newest, the dyson brand appeals.  But once that NICHE market is met and usually quickly, dyson products struggle to sell side by side with the competition, especially in the current bad economic times.  Hence the past dyson trend to constantly intro new vacuums year after year and non-vacuum products.  Niche market requires constantly new products to sell and fund the ongoing operations.  Works for awhile but not forever.  Especially in bad times.

Carmine D.

I’m very much in two minds with the Dyson fan. I saw one on display in Harrods earlier in the year. It’s interesting, I like the unusual design and the tech. Turn it on and you kinda see what they mean; the air is smooth and the rate easily controlled. But you can’t help but think “is that all?” for 200 GBP?

..and yet I can remember days from the summer 3 years, when the weather was unbearable and for the first time ever I went out and brought a pedestal fan... and had to wear ear plugs at night and put up with what I am now told is sub-standard ‘choppy air’. If the Dyson fan had been around then, I might be have tempted to invest...

That said, it’s never going to sell to a large amount of people in the UK, at that price, to be used  for a few days in the summer. For some, it could be seen as some as an investment that might last 10 years. If the price at some stage gets to 100 GBP, that would equal 10 GBP per year – which isn’t so bad. But clearly, it’s a fair better proposition in places that have a hot climate, where you’d use it most days in the summer.

I don’t really need one, it is a steep price, but whatever the commercial realities, it does seem that again Dyson has succeeded in turning a usually unexciting product in to an object of desire.

I like the Air blade idea - the applications that it could be used for are many. I'm sure Dyson will be hard at work trying to improve something else that uses a fan etc.

I have lived under the roof of a two-story building here for the last 15 years.  It being my dwelling is a rental and long in the tooth as it were, central air conditioning was never a consideration.  Thus, what had to be looked to here were ways to keep air circulating and also to keep the indoor environment at comfortable temperatures.  I have had to opt for window fans and/or window air conditioners. 

This is remarkable to me as when I was younger -- the hotter the better.  Now, I'm tjoroughly surpised at how I take winter so much better than I used to and how I get really irritating heat rashes come summer.  Come summer, Con Edison, our supplier of electricity and gas, does not care whether I'm hot or cold.  It only says, "Pay me." And believe me -- you pay.  That said . . .

While I was living there, I learned there was a joke among the Turkish that a Turk builds a house but leaves the worry over where a well is until later.  We have something of the same problem here.  In Tenerife and even Bodrum, I was amazed that the communities I'd be living in actually built houses to work with the weather.  All you had to do was go to the top of the of a whitewashed house, open a door or window to start up a convection current that worked as well as any fan throughout the whole house.  You were neither exposed to the often unnatural chill of air conditioning or left to sweat in the heat.  AND it was free.

The "modernly civilized" build our homes on mountain sides, below sea level and just about anywhere else because we feel that a fix can be bought for just about anything.  All you need is a good insurance policy and properr appliances.  BUT, the tables are turning as of late as more and more of us are confronted by the fact that we don't always have the funds to opt for pricey  fixes to sustain us.  Therefore we begin to look to learn what we can do that won't bear high cost.

The Dyson fan is undeniably an interesting idea but not necessarily a practical one.  That I strongly believe.  If you can afford go for it.  What I feel this fan is all about is that it's an engaging "loss leader" good for the Dyson name by way of novelty potential.

I've always used regular fans.  What mattered to me was affordabilty and if I was made comfortable in the process despite aesthetic trade-offs..

Venson

vacmanuk wrote:

High hopes.  Let's see dyson deliver before they get the kudos.  Still waiting now over 3 years for the water free washer that dyson patented almost 3 years ago and hyped here by some UKUSA dyson fans [no pun intended].

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

What ever happened to the good ol trusty attic fan...a true blessing here in the south. i would think that with those cool desert nights that an attic fan would shine and keep things nice and cool. We run ours with cieling fans at night ..early summer spring and fall....a/c on those warmer humid days.....but the thought of a home with no a/c....in this day and time is pretty unheard of....but a table fan by dyson at that price...is better suited for a sharper image store/catlg....if still around.

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello turtle1:

Not here in LV.  Why?  Roofs here are slate due to the extreme heat and the attics still get extremely hot.  Homes are mostly stucco.  Attics are unbearable hot.  Retrofitting attic fans is too costly and labor intensive for slate roofs and stucco walls.  Sometimes seen are roof fans for garages only because these areas are not typically air conditioned.  Even with them the temperature differences with and without the fans is almost negligible in summer months.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

Imeant more along the lines of a whole house fan...pulls in outside air from windows..thru the atiic fan in your cieling thru the attic and out your soffit vents/roof vents..cools house and also cools your attic space....unless you have vaulted cielings..or no attic at all. ..or i could just be really off on this one...not familiar with houses are built out your way.

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

In my 3 plus years here in Vegas, I've not seen any new homes' construction with whole house attic fans installed, even customized homes.   Nor older homes with these whole house fans.  Central air is the norm with room ceiling fans and portable room fans/AC units. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

They are still awaiting the discovery or dehydrated water.  Simply add water to the bottle of dehydrated water and fill the washer.

I went to BB today to pass time.  I paid a little more attention to the fan.  I like the concept, the smoothness and quietness.  I do not like the price.  Even if I needed a fan.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

Never seen attic fans until i moved to the south..where its really humid. But i still have my $30 high vlcty aloha breeze 20in fan from wally thats not too loud and works wonders in a stuffy house ....shop. a true blessing when the a/c goes out on a humid day in concert with cieling and attic fan....dont know how you guys lived without no a/c back in the day......

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

You don't miss it until you've had it.  Humidity is not a problem here in the desert.  Tops 10 percent humidity with 120 degree temps in July.  Winds and sand are huge problems even on very hot days.  2 reasons also for not opening windows and/o using fans that are exposed and/or subject to these outside elements.

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Well . . . people opened windows and doors.  That's what screens are for.  (Grandpa always said, there's more than one way to skin a cat.) AND if the house was well designed air would start moving.  The whole-house/attic  fan helps the idea along. 

Unfortunately a lot of what was done in past may only be good for some -- especially in places where everybody's piece of the pie is stacked on top of someone else's.

Venson

Looks like Sir James' conservative candidate Cameron didn't make the cut with only 309 votes.  Neither did Brown or Clegg.  Bad scitchiation.  Especially with Greece and the euro.  Our strongest and best ally is having a very bad day.  Any predictions on when the next election will be held?  I'm betting before Nov 2010.  Have to see what the Vegas line says.

BTW anyone who thinks finger fumble caused the 998 NYSE DOW decline in 6 minutes yesterday must be a bagless vacuum buyer with the mantra the higher the price the better the product!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Oreck would be a good product rather than just an expensive broom if higher price was part of the criteria. 

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Amazing you Brits.  Brown steps down; Cameron and Clegg, as unlikely partners as dyson and ORECK, form a coalition UK government.  Wonder if this is a precursor of things to come in the vacuum world?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Curious...are the dyson new hires and  his current team all dedicated to the design/engineering  of his vacs or are they spread out in diff divisions..alotted so much time for each project.....how many design team/engineers does his compitition have [riccar pansc hvr..ect] .

With his new hires...would that not reflect as  a positive for dyson and the future.

turtle 

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi turtle,

Is this an update of the original article posted here?  Dyson's claim was to take on 300 and some personnel for design.  He did not say what exactlly they'd be working on.  He also did not say when this would happen and he also left a big "if" in regard as to whether the UK educational system could provide worthy candidates for the proposed slots. (Whoa, what a kick in the teeth.)

I don't think you need 300 or more people to come up with a bright idea just for a vacuum cleaner unless you're looking to flood the market with a dozen or so models all at once.  It not cost effective.  One would think, there's a Dyson fridge, TV or whatever else in the plan.  In any event the gist of the article I posted a few weeks ago was more a press release than anything else.  No newsworthy "where, when and how" was included.

The other odd twist here is that if my recall is correct the amount of new hires will not compensate in relevant fashion for all those lost when he moved manufacturing out of the UK.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson, turtle...

It's not an update.  Hertz posted the same article under a new thread yesterday [along with the dyson car lift trick] that you posted here on this thread. 

Carmine D.

Carmine what are you talking about? I never posted this article. Only the vacuum lift trick. Next time don't just use your memory.

Hertz wrote:

Hertz wrote:

My memory is usually pretty good.  How about yours?

Carmine D.