Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

It looks like the Kirby bagless conversion thread took quite a few hairpin turns.

Regrading the conversation with Tom Gasko. He was not the only source of the 80%  figure.

GO TO ANY BIG BOX RETAILER. COUNT THE NUMBER OF FULL SIZE VACUUMS. COUNT THE NUMBER OF BAGGED VACUUMS. CALCULATE THE PERCENTAGE.

Vac shops come in three varieties when it comes to bagless

1) They do not sell them at all

2) They sell them used

3) They sell anything the customer wants, regardless

There are just over 6,000 independent vac shops in the US at present.  The focus for nearly all of them has shifted to repair as opposed to new sales. While the independent vac shops account for the highest percentage of sales of bagged vacuums, they do not account for the bulk of new vac sales total.  Hoover, Dirt Devil, Bissell, and Eureka are the four brands which account the majority of new vac sales.  LOOK at the number of bagged models they offer compared to the number of bagless models.  They make what sells, what the BBR's buy.  Sears is the only large retailer who might sell a 50/50 or 60/40 mix of bagged to bagless vacuums, due to their Kenmore power nozzle canisters. Kirby and Oreck sell bagged vacuums. Filter Queen, Silver King, Fairfax, Superior's Filter Magic, and all the water filtration vacuums count as bagless, although, together they account for a small portion of the 20 million new full size upright and canister vacuums.

IF one does a cursory amount of looking and percentage calculations the 80% figure is still holding true. It shows signs of shifting in favor of bagless, but it will take years of independent vac shops staying open and selling 3 or 4 bagged vacums a day to ma e a significant dent in the bagless share of the market. We did not get here overnight and it will take some time to reverse the trend.   80% bagless new vac sales may be  a 'seat of the pants' number but it is also accurate.  The stores buy what they know sells, theerfore, what you see on the shelves is what they are selling. If you see 4 bagless vacuums for every bagged vaccum, you can pterry much bank on the ratio of sales being 4 to1 or 80/20. There are many more big box stores compared to independent vac shops. The numbers of the BBR's hold sway.

Tom Gasko would be very much in favor of Tacony offering at least one bagless lightweight upright. Tom thinks the cyclonic technology has advanced to the point that bagless should be the norm because the dirt sits in the bag in the closet.   I take my garbage out in a plastic bag, every few days, but I don't dump it into a pail without using a plastic liner.  I find the need to go outside to empty the bagless container much more objectionable, however, when cleaning in someone else's home , the bagless Kirby conversion works great.  I'm not carrying their dirt into someone else's home, and I am not spending money on Kirby bags. And my bagless Kirby has beaten many a Dyson when it comes to deep cleaning carpet, because the Dyson simply cannot hold the carpet up on a cushion of air and vibrate it.

Mr. Keeler is enjoying tremendous success. He has his own web site for sales, totally independent of e-bay, and has had enough hits that his store comes up FIRST when a search for Kirby Bags is done.

At the home show, the local Oreck rep shared with me a new model is being introduced in April, the Edge. It will have a more powerful motor for deep plush and frieze, a V belt, AND a short stretch hose witha telescpoic wand mounted behind the bag with a diverter valve directing suction to the floor when the handle is lowered, and to the hose/wand when it is raised. It will still have a small canister as part of the package.  The hose is simply for waht people use an onboard hose for, to reach debris the upright head cannot. Oreck has increased market share and profit in this economic downturn by increasing R&D and advertising.

Carmine, Venson, and Severus, it has been great meeting you here, but I am bored with the pettiness and the arrogance of some here. I will check my mailbox here for notes from you three, but I don't think I'll post here again.

Hello Trebor:

Welcome back and thanks for the kind comments.

The problem I have with most numbers and statistics are they are usually one time measures for a specific point in time.  More meaningful are the numbers' trends and consistency over periods of time.  Yes, more vacuums by brands that sell primarily in big box store venues are bagless.  That's not as significant a development as the fact that their prices have come down substantially in recent years from earlier in the decade.  This has meaning.  Why? 

Since the third quarter of 2007, and right up to now and for the foreseeable future, the USA is in the throes of the worse economic recession [some say depression] since the 1930's.  Unemployment is steady at 10 percent and probably going up to 11.  Here in LV it's 15 percent.  Other cities nationwide the same.  About 15 million unemployed nationally.  With at least 100,000 plus more unemployed every month.  Auto makers failing.  Banks failing.  Including the largest deemed too big to fail.  Big box retailers and stores are failing.  No end in sight.  The US gov't is bankrupt.  America is living on borrowed money from China and Japan.  Countries in Europe all tied to the Euro are skittish economically.  Greece went bankrupt.  Spain and Italy are probably next. 

In the midst of this global economic tsunami, we expect now that big box store venues would offer its customers cheap bagless vacuums.  Cheap bagless sells now in those venues to their customers.  Bagless fits the bill now among the BBR buyers.  BUT this trend bodes ill for HIGH PRICED BAGLESS.  That's the critical importance to a certain brand and its sales venue and future.  Does niche market sound correct.

Carmine D.

The "Big Box" sellers in the UK, i.e actual department stores dedicated to electronics, white good appliances etc are cost effective, buying in bulk and selling it cheap. The supermarkets are however undercutting in most cases but their locations are smaller than the department store types. Older department stores fare worse; they buy in smaller amounts of goods and are thus not as cost effective. Companies like John Lewis however "test" products on behalf of the consumers looking for premium quality, often taking vacuums in particularly that seem to have higher ratings than most of the stuff you can pick up for cheaper prices. JL also offer extended warranties as well. I feel sorry for the private shops; the independent ones have to mark up the prices to make a profit. It's a sign of the times.

Trebor wrote:

I have to disagree with several points here. Indies have ALWAYS focused on repairs! More so in the past (when all vacuums were repairable) than the present. I focus on sales, repairs, parts and service. BBS sell bagless because it suits them not the customer. No Vac Specialist, no Repairs, no service, no parts, no warranty issues. People buy bagless 1-because they are not completely informed (no qualified salesmen remember). Most purchasers that actually do research tend to buy better quality vacs,of that most are bagged and 2 Bagless is about all they are offered. Indies tend to want to make a profit on what they sell, they know that is how they will remain in business. BBS have no problem selling products at a loss hoping to sell the customers more product, expecting that the sum of all their purchases will return a profit. They seem to be having solvency problems at the present....wonder why.

Lucky,

I think we are more in agreement than not. My main point was that the 80% bagless upright figure is easily and repeatedly verifiable by a quick stroll down the vac aisle of any BBR
Since we are talking an average number of 15 vacs (an aisle can only be so many feet before the customer starts to feel trapped like a rat in a maze, thus display fixtures are very consistent in size) one bagged upright more or less can skew the percentage greatly, but less than 66 2/3% for bagless uprights skus is an anaomoly. I proved it again yesterday at Menard's: (a regional home improvement warehouse chain) 15 upright vacuums, 4 bagged,  73.33% of their vacuum cleaner offerings were bagless uprights. Not a canister in sight.

I never meant to imply that indies' did not focus on service, but simply that the emphasis has shifted more in that direction today due to market conditions. At one time the number of independent vac shops was nearly double what it is today, there were no BBR as we know them today. Sears, Wards, and Penneys were the BBR and the big downtown stores had sewing/vac speciality departments.  A vacuum was a major purchase, a higher percentage of them were sold in the home, as there were more D2D brands than retail store brands, so someone walking into an indy shop was more likely to be in the market to purchase a vacuum than they are today.
 
If you read the dialogue I overheard in my friend's shop and posted here, you know I understand the importance of service and patiently educating today's customer, many of whom equate the term 'canister' to mean bagless, and have never even  seen a full size power-nozzle tank/canister-type vacuum for household use. They think of hose type vacuums as portables and shop vacs. With the shift to more hard surface flooring, a re-emergence of canisters is long overdue, and slow in coming. It will be spearheaded by the indy shops, no question.

welcome back, trebor; I too haven't been here for a while til recently.  what about the "bag saver" tool that came with Eureka Powerteam canisters; were they good/bad?

Hello Hooverman,

Sorry I have not responded sooner, but I don't check in as often as I used to.
The Eureka bagless wand attachment was a good idea that did not pan out. It did indeed save the bag from filling, however, it did not trap enough of the very fine dust to keep it from clogging.
So people were not changing the bag after it was clogged, with all of the attendant consequences.

Trebor