Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Tho a couple of months away, the VDTA is slotted for Vegas this year AND central vacuum systems, tho relatively new venue to the vacuum trade organization, are getting increased emphasis.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

My boss/owner of the shop i work at goes every year.....ive been invited many times but....my anniversary and family vacation in the same month...so its a no go .

Vegas is a wonderful place....somewhat magical.....great memories.

Ive been to some of the local shows around here and have noticed a few more cent vac booths every year.....along with better demos ...interaction with the customer/public has also improved compared to previous years.....altho iv never been a fan of them and prefer an upright .....i see where they are beneficial to those with breathing problems.

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi turtle1:

Add great deals now too!  Great place to visit/vacation.

Inside info here claimed that the Prez was suppose to visit the new City Center complex during the First Family's Christmas vacation in Hawaii.  In part to congratulate Senate Reid for the success in the Senate with passing a Health Care Bill and because the City Center complex just opened in Las Vegas.  It employed 12,000 construction workers and now about 10,000 employees.   Cost billions.  Secret Service did the scrub down days before, all of which was unannounced and unreported.   I suspect the Christmas Day airplane bomber changed the Presidential plans.

Perhaps the influx of and experience with bagless has had a beneficial impact on CVS for vacuum consumers.

Carmine D.

News and print reports show 3500 attendees are planned for the VDTA Convention in Las Vegas this week.

Carmine D.

Wouldn’t it be a fair assessment to assume most vacuum manufacturers showing at VDTA will be selling two types of vacuum cleaners... 1) Those made with tired off the shelf parts and designs, and 2) those made to look like they were made with Dyson parts and designs?


Dyson Invents Big

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Dustmite,

The answer to your question is NO. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Severus wrote:
Venson,

Please, elaborate.  Here is the link to U.S. Patent Applications, would you care to show us?...

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.html

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Severus wrote:

I have to agree with Severus on this for a few reasons.  First, Consumer Reports for vacuums going back several years before dyson even hit the USA shores list 5 major vacuum brands with assorted models in uprights and canisters that are and were bagless at the time.  Bagless is dyson's only claim to fame that has beared fruit in the US in the big box store sales venues.  Second, dyson is not a big seller [repairs and parts business only] in USA independent vacuum cleaner stores whose owners/workers will be represented at the VDTA/SDTA: i.e. the backbone of the USA vacuum cleaner industry.  Third, dyson's vacuum market share [whether dollar/unit] in the USA is and has been decreasing year over year to sales of less expensive bagless brand competitors.  All these vacuum brands which are taking away bagless sales from dyson were here in the USA before dyson. 

The latter is a serious short, mid and longterm problem for dyson especially with its main USA sales venues: big box stores.  Dyson vacuum products are rapidly becoming a niche seller in the USA.  Niche is not the best product for big box store venues in the USA, especially in the current economy.  But, on a good note, this fall off in US dyson vacuum sales gives James Dyson and his staff more time to explore other personal and professional interests:  The state of affairs of education in the UK, fans with hidden blades, and posting on the internet.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dustmite,

There's no need for anyone to elaborate.   Your statements were dishonest and misleading.    Given that you only recognize "innovation" if it's associated with Dyson, you fail to recognize improvements and innovation in other brands.    Many of Dyson's "innovative features" are features that consumers do NOT want.  I think it was Mole who said something like: the Dyson Ball was Dyson's answer to a question that no one asked.    While you might consider the long hose built into the handle an innovative feature, I consider it to be a nuisance.  I like the Shark Navigator's tool set up a lot better.  And most Dyson vacuums, with the exception of the DC28, are mediocre at the vacuum's most important function - cleaning carpeting.  They Dyson Zorb was the highest priced and lowest scoring product for cleaning carpeting - is that innovation to you?

Innovative would be a fundamental change in how consumers vacuum.  One could argue that irobot is much more innovative than Dyson because they have fundamentally changed how some people operate a vacuum.   Dyson's major claim to fame is the dirt collection system.  While constant suction is notable, you pay a price in that Dyson requires you to get up and personal with the filth collected by the vacuum. 

Using Consumer Reports tests for comparative purposes, even with Dyson's supposed "innovations", they function no better than many vacuums costing less than 1/2 their price.   If and when Dyson creates a vacuum that scores "excellent" in the CR ratings (i.e. 81 to 100 - preferably 90/100 if I'm to be impressed), then I'll consider Dyson to be innovative.   Innovation only matters if it improves the quality of life of the end consumers.  While Dyson owners might save money on bags, they pay for it by having to empty a small dirt canister more frequently. 

Severus wrote:
Oh Venson,

I never tire of your long winded personal views and many unsubstantiated claims.  Since the economy is on the minds of many posters here, I thought I’d toss out to the dealers...  Save money, stay home cause the tired non-Dyson vacuum cleaner will remain the same. Year over year, it’s more of the same...  Chokers and Dyosn’s - will be at the wildly-exciting VDTA.


Dyson Invents Big

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hiya DIB.  You're calling my name again.  Guess you must miss me, huh?

Love and kisses,

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dustmite,

Don't get me wrong.  I do think Dyson tries to be innovative.   I think they have been a positive influence on the vacuum industry.  However, other companies have as well.   I think it would do both you and James Dyson good if you would remove your head from his posterior. 

On a vote for most innovative product in the vacuum industry, iRobot's Rhomba robotic vacuums launched in October 2002 in the USA get my vote, hands down.  It wins Consumer Reports' best rating and grade for robotic vacuums, crushes all the competition in the field and sells at budget prices by all big box store venues in the USA.  I can't even think of a single brand/model that is even a distant second.

Carmine D.

Severus, I'm surprised by your judgement using CR scores as the "almighty." Surely if you judge for yourself you'll know what you prefer when it comes to vacuums. CR scores and anything else shouldn't really come into it. After all CR for many years rated Kenmore models as being allergen free when it came to their HEPA systems. Yet, you can see Gerry "bloody" Rubin on you tube whip out his particle counter to show that the HEPA emissions aren't exactly true. Furthermore, of the reports I've read by them concerning the new Miele S7 upright, where models are only differentiated by the suction buttons/dials and a headlight, I'm highly sceptical that the two "different" models by Miele (which are effectively the same aside from suction buttons/headlight) seem to be better than the other. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUpQ1LbAzQA
 

vacmanuk wrote:

Curiously, no vacuum has broken the 81 point ceiling to gain the "Excellent" designation in CR.  As for the Miele uprights, the difference in scores was very small - Twist (72), Bolero (71), and Jazz (70).   For whatever reason, the Jazz had a slightly lower air flow score.  It may mean that the higher scoring machines are barely in the higher category.   There is unit to unit variation with vacuum cleaners.  CR purchases multiple copies of each vacuum and averages the results.   They also replicate tests. The highest scoring Miele vacuum does not have the automatic suction control - so it's at its highest for cleaning.  It also doesn't have a HEPA filter, so the air flow may be slightly better.  The overall assessment of each of these vacuums is that they clean very well with great filtration, they're quiet, but the handling is the downfall.   The difference in scores is negligable.   The challenge to Dyson and others is to create a vacuum that cleans as well as a Miele upright, is quiet, with great filtration, but as easy to push around as an Oreck - or even better a roomba. 

Because CR publishes categorized scores, you could have 2 different vacuums with "excellent" emissions in which  one scores an 81 and the other scores 99.  both would appear to be the same, but the numeric scores that go into the overall score would be much different.   So can any vacuum manufacturer score more than 80 points?   

Severus wrote:
Dyson has run its course in the USA , becoming just  another bagless vacuum, It was a good run piloted by the biggest and most expensive propaganda machine ever to hit the floor care industry.

Dont even hear about them much anymore.

I can hear Sir Jimmy snickering in the background boy americans are STUPID ...........

regards

mole

mole wrote:

ALL retailers even James/dyson are lowering dyson prices.  It is quite common now to get discounts of at least 20 percent from advertised prices.  What was the dyson MAP?  10 percent?  Must be the new UK math.  20 percent has become less than 10 percent.  You know how that works.  In 1999 dyson bonuses were never paid because they are insulting and demeaning.  Then in 2009 they are paid for the same reasons.  

Carmine D.

The lack of TV and newspaper news coverage on this year's vacuum trade convention is telling.  Supposedly estimated at 3500 attendees down from the norm in the past and probably well overstated this year.  There has been no mention of the vacuum convention this year.  In past years it was always a staple on and in the local news for one/more days.     

Carmine D.

For many the innovation is what the show is about but for most dealers attending it's the seminars that are the most valuable, myself included. I took away many great ideas and am anxious to implement them (once I get some additional cash flow...LOL). Random thoughts Simplicity will have their new AMERICAN made canisters available in a month or so. They will also have a powered hand tool available. I liked a lot. Their wet and dry carpet cleaning systems are VERY good ( I plan to invest in both) Sebo's new can is UGLY!!!!!! Has a huge bag but did I mention it looks UGLY! Dealers are not too keen on their new Multi-level-marketing scheme. Miele has already upped the Callisto to a larger more aggressive powerhead (now CR will like it) and will replace the Callisto w217 PH with the Libra (I believe), a canister in a nicer color, Red. The S2 gets a turbo unit in a dull boring grey. The T shaped hand turbo will be discontinued for an L shaped smaller unit. A Cat & Dog version of the S7 will be made available. Didn't get the whole story but a line of appliances will be available to vacuum dealers. Eureka Lux has a new higher priced line for dealers, 5 grand buying in and your assurance of commitment needed. It seems like it will just be added conflict in an already filled price point. The medium and lower priced machines will still be only offered to box stores and internet whores. So basically it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they want YOU to commit to them yet they will cut your throat, profit margin and commitment to you. Where do I sign. Didn't get any time at Lindhaus but it seemed they had a nicely styled canister mock-up and a low priced Upright available. Good to see AMERICAN MADE bag maker DVC there. Panasonic really needs someone who actually knows something about their products. They are going to cheaper rollers

Sebo's new can? Is this a new canister vacuum that has never been seen before? Sebo USA have both the K and C series or is this a new one completely, Lucky?

vacmanuk wrote:

Totally new.

Totally new? Under what model name? More details would be great here as well as appreciated. Sebo have already launched their K1 Eco on the market - 1500 watts compared to their usual 1800 watts/2100 watts in a brown colour (don't ask me why, some of the markets have the model name K1 "Cappuccino.")

Lucky1 wrote:

I saw a youtube video of the Riccar carpet cleaner cleaning up a tube of toothpaste that little Jimmy (or whatever his name was), squeezed onto the carpeting and rubbed it in.  It looked a lot like a Rug Doctor.  The video showed the cleaner completely removing the toothpaste after about 20 or so passes.  How does the Simplicity/Riccar carpet cleaner compare to a Rug Doctor?  Any idea what the approximate price range will be for the wet cleaner? 

The extractors will be quite expensive as the are a compact true commercial machine. They are offered to be used in rental programs but wouldn't be a bad unit to start a small business. (PM me if you actually want to buy one and I will get cost). Aside that they are both compact, the Simplicity machine differs greatly from the rug Doctor in size and the way it wotks. Some features: Revolving Brushroll.....13" Cleaning Path.....60 PSI pump pressure! (almost twice as much a a rug Doc).....107' WATER LIFT.......4.25 Gallon solution tank and 4 Gallon recovery......8" RUBBER Wheels...Made in the USA

vacmanuk wrote:

Wouldn't you assume it is the same machine then? I doubt they would create 2 new models. Does it look like a Skeleton Keyhole when viewed from above?

Ive just been informed by a good friend of mine what the new model is and it is called the Airbelt D4 model. Available in D1, D2, D4 and D4 Premium versions, It replaces the C model and has a round bezel 360 degree turn hose (like the new Bosch cylinder vacuums) still retains 4 castors, new 3 part tool set, 12 to 14 metres of cable, electronic handle controls and all new design. Looks a bit like the Hoover cylinder Aquawash we had in the 1980s - rectangular body with round frontage at the top. I wouldn't say it is ugly though Lucky - just different - and I can't wait to try it!

And yes I get your skeleton key imagery!

Spec: 1600 watt to 2100 watt variable suction control.
Auto cord rewind pedal
6.5 to 7kg final weight
LED suction control dial
6 litre bigger capacity dust bag with hygiene sealing cap.

It's reminiscent of some canister vacs put out by Philips, Vorwerk and Rowenta.  I'm guessing the round bulge is to accommodate the new bag size.

Venson

Yep, inside houses a new bag (and not the old X series bags the old C cylinders used to use) but I suspect the round bezel has been incorporated to give the hose connector a complete turn.

The Sebo.de site has downloadable info on the D1,2, and D4 models, but mostly in German. 
The D4 diagrams suggest the bag's a filterette material and can expand to full volume without being confined by the canister, which should help avoid the bag confinement and dust leakage problems Miele had with their recent S5 series.  The Hospital filter is an oddity, appearing to be a sheet lining a circular plastic insert fitted into the bottom of the D4.
Would be good to know if the D4's motors are new, more efficient designs (the C3.1's generated a lot of carbon dust and ran very hot).
The manual also suggests a cone-shaped hose (like on some Bosch and Lindhaus vacs) is being used.

Specs (largest D model):

2100 watt max motor
air flow =  45 liters / sec
lift = not specified
weight = 6.9 kg  (around 15 lbs)
Ultra-Bag (tm) filter bag = electrostatic fleece

Hi vacomatic,

I visited the site and found all four models plus a brochure in PDF form.  Do you still have the URL for manual?

Thanks,

Venson

Sebo Airbelt D1                             Sebo Airbelt D2                           Sebo Airbelt D4                         Sebo Airbelt D4 Premium
1600 watt                                       1600 watt                                    2100 watt                                   2100 watt
12m cable                                      12m cable                                  12m cable                                   12m cable

The models all use cone shaped filters of which a plastic grid underneath keeps the filters in place, removable and replaceable.

http://www.sebo-airbelt.de/sebo-airbelt-d-kampagne_de.html


User manuals:

GEBRAUCHSANWEISUNG_SEBO_AIRBELT_D.pdf


T

vacmanuk wrote:
Great looking pieces,Cant figure out why Sebo never caught on in the USA. Have any insight to why vacmanuk...........

Sebo have "caught on," in the U.S but primarily through commercial units in the Windsor-Sebo range (uprights like Stealth / Ensign / Sensor S / XP ) I believe you can buy Sebo's cylinder / canister vacs in the U.S but they are a small company and don't have as much foot hold as Miele. Sebo have initially been in the U.S since the late 1990s and have sold many units in the USA under different brands.

vacmanuk wrote:

I agree with your observation, many dealers only carry the X series and a few carry the felix, both a great product but very pricey,If the customer is looking for a top shelf canister ot tank,  The dealers lead them towards miele,riccar, bosch, when they were around,

Have any clue why bosch stopped the run in the USA.

MOLE

Well, the U.S have Bosch's uprights in the form of Vax USA. As for their cylinders, they make different ones per country as do most of the brands. Here in the UK although Bosch is seen as a cheaper compact to Miele or Sebo, their biggest downside is that the bags are hard to find and of a practical nature, the tubes and hoses never stick together despite their friction fit design. Bosch are a smaller company when it comes to floorcare. They had a few problems in the 1990s with their upright vacs and them took them off the market. Vax on the other hand kept the design and has continued to sell those heavy uprights known initially as the AVC series and now VX: (X3 in the U.S)

vacmanuk wrote: This was the upright sold as the bagless jet,they also sold a bagged version also,some even sold under the siemens label,powerfull suction but  proved to be problematic and were  quickly shunned by the dealers,I know that there are a few around and are being blown out at $99.00

Siemens and Bosch are the same company; in the UK for example Bosch make brilliant household appliances; we had a Bosch dishwasher for 15 years, our oven is 20 years old and will need replacing soon. The Siemens brand dress everything up in stainless steel finishes compared to the literal white and black limited colours offered on Bosch and as a result hike the prices up accordingly. I only know of a few people who buy Siemens over Bosch because of the elevated prices. Electrolux also have that problem in the UK with John Lewis products since their laundry machines are rebadged Zanussi models and then the price hike and promise of "German engineering," with their AEG brand, when in actual fact all of their machines are made in China!

Both Bosch and Sebo are heavy hitters when it comes to price.  You should have seen the prices on Bosch dishwashers untli as of late.  Miele has an advantage due to being established on the market in many areas -- not just vacuums.

Bosch, even when it was picked up by a relatively well-known vendor like Sears as an add-on to its vacuum roster, it wasn't getting what it wanted saleswise and stopped the line intended for America.  Even at $750 for its high-end model, far less than Miele's top of the line vac but probably about as good, it didn't seem to get off the ground except for some of its less expensive models.  Maybe more advertising with that slight bit of snob appeal that Miele always goes for would have helped. 

The same applies for Sebo since it is basically an indie vendor offering here .  However, I don't see it in as many shops carrying it as I do offering Miele and don't know if it would be counter productive to carry both brands.  A product's lack of visibilty is the one reservation that will me to second thoughts when it comes to buying.  No matter how great I may think a vac is, I want to be sure that I can find consumables and maintenance without problem.  Thus, if I didn't see something show up frequently, at least in indie shops in my local vicinity I'd automatically start to wonder how easy it would be to get fresh bags, filters, etc., when I need them.

Venson

Hey vacmanuk,

I downloaded teh Sebo D4 manual and am saved because it's both in German and English.

Vielen Dank,

Venson

I saw that myself - normally the German manuals are both in English and German.

Granted the new D series looks a little like Vorwerk's Tiger but only a little...




Or the Panasonic MCE 800 series:

vacmanuk wrote:

Hey vacmanuk,

You go! So glad you checked that out.  Though there's little similarity to the Vorwerk Tiger, the design makes me think of the Nilfisk 930 in a roundabout way.  My reason is for this is due to the airflow draw being channeled to originate above the bag.  I don't know if the involvement of gravity was meant to be a key part in dust handling but the set up does to some degree allow dust to fall and collect at the bottom of the bag and leave the top portion of the bag more freed up for allowing optimal airflow.  The Nilfisk 930's filtration medium are housed in the cleaner's lid

http://webparts.nilfisk-advance.com/pdf/Instruction%20for%20use%20GD%20930%20EU.pdf

In response to the poster making mention of the conically shaped hose this was traditionally a trait of American made Electroluxes and also Nilfisk for many years.  Smaller point of entry with larger point of exit was to lessen possibility of clogging.

That said, the rest of this rather inttricately designed Sebo is quite interesting.  The manual shows how the airbelt is set up and how it muffles sound and subdues the motor exhaust.  I also think the "hospital" filter in teh bottom of the machine posibbly doubles its filtering ability by the way it has to be folded over on itself for installation.

For those not familiar with Verwerk vacuums, this is what Vorwerk Tiger canister I made mention of  looks like now.

Best,

Venson

There are a few people I know who own Vorwerk vacs in the UK but they are very rare and the stick / upright version is more popular here. Of those nearest to me who have sampled my Sebo uprights, they usually buy Sebo in the end because bags are cheaper and the machines are better thought out. Mind you I do like some of the looks of current Vorwerk models.

A large local vac chain here in Oregon that carries Sebo told me they may not carry the D series because "today there are too many high end canisters in the marketplace". 
However, the C series was/is looking dated compared to the current and upgraded Mieles.  Also glad to hear Sebo's finally offering a filtrette style bag in a canister.

At least Sebo did not make the mistake Miele did with the S5 series and put a filtrette bag in an undersized dust chamber, resulting in dust leakage and clogging of the HEPA filter.
That's never been a problem with the older Blue Moon I use.

vacomatic wrote:

Vacomatic:

You posted under the VDTA thread.  Did you attend?

Are you saying any oversized filtrette [paper byt cloth like] not just MIELE, causes dust to leak out into the bag compartment and pre-post motor filters?  Or something else?

Carmine D.

vacomatic wrote:

The S5s?  I don't whom it was that told you that but the high filtration bags I've been using in my S5980 Capricorn have not ever leaked. My cleaner is moving on toward two years of age and the biggest part of my worries about bags is paying for them.

In any event, the bag chamber is clean as a whistle.  That's the first thing I look for with any vacuum I use because a clean bag chamber is a sure indicator that a very  good part of what you pick up is and will be captured. Thus, I don't havew to give a thought to whether significant quantities of dust or dirt are gathering on motor componsnts.  The pre-filter and HEPA are clean too.  My S5 series machine is probably the only bagged cannister that I've owned that compares to Filter Queen -- my personal benchmark -- for best in show dust retention.

Miele had the foresight to place a fill-tube that fits into the bag collar and eliminates the blowback issue found in the less expensive but good Kenmore I might well have bought..  Kenmore yet insists on depending on the pressure seal between the lid and the bag holder to defeat leakage at the bag collar and it doesn't work well as it could.   Though not a major issue, one would think that someone would have started thinking about the matter as soon as they'd thought about upping their prices.

The Kenmore problem is best dealt with by not letting disposable bags get beyond the three-fourths full point.  On the other hand the generously sized bag in my Capricorn keeps me going.  Its inner layers contain dirt well but still allow good airflow until the bag is full.

Venson

vacomatic wrote:
Well as you say the C series was/is looking dated. If they sell the C series high enough i.e. if they get enough sales or have done already, then the D is the natural replacement and they may well have to sell it by demand as the C series will stop production sooner or later. I've never bothered with the C series on the grounds that my Miele S571 has already taken that spot of being a larger cylinder vacuum cleaner even though it uses the smaller F/J/M bags and I have never come across the dust leaking situation on general S500 models. Also the S571 is 1 kg lighter than the C series which is why I've never been taken with it. I do like the fact that the C series used the same bag as the X series and it is a pity that the D series uses an independently designed bag just for the model. It remains to be seen if the D series bags will be used for future models such as an upright vacuum cleaner. Sebo say that they have no intentions to update the current line up, but one never knows with the company - they play very strongly to their heart when it comes to model launches.

As for the S5's problem - i.e.e S5000 range which uses the larger dust bag - this is not a problem that I have heard about  - in theory it is possible that consumers have been confused by using the bigger G series bags in the smaller S500 dust bin and that could by design push dirt out.

I will venture to say the bag leak is user error. However I will say it's not totally unreasonable to have user error with the new bags. Since the new bags have come with that hinged cap they POP out of the holder on some models whenever the Compartment Lid is opened. Sometimes SO slightly that the user will not notice. When the user closes the lid, the collar on the lid does not slide into the bag opening correctly and may even creese it, allowing air flow to circumvent the bag. This results in a dirty compartment. NOTE: Always reseat the bag into its holder after opening the lid.

SEBO have now put on English to describe their latest D series cylinder vacs.


For the D4 for example:

"...The SEBO AIRBELT D4 is equipped with a lot of extras which make your life easier. A cleaning range of 15.5 meters provides more flexibility. The 6l filter bag carries more. The optimized air flow and the tapered hose give more suction. The variable suction control in the ergonomic handle offers more convenience. The new illuminated power display with LED performance indicators shows the suction power. It rotates slowly at the lowest level and faster at the highest level.

Of course the SEBO AIRBELT D4 includes all SEBO standards and quality „Made in Germany”: high class S-class filtration, patented SEBO AIRBELT, versatile turning swivel neck, variable telescopic tube, integrated bag change indicator, gentle soft-start system. The SEBO AIRBELT D4 is additionally equipped with the high quality stainless steel telescopic tube. The quality construction and the ergonomic design show that SEBO stresses optimum function and longevity. Therefore the SEBO AIRBELT D4 is extremely cost-effective in use.

The design of the SEBO AIRBELT D differs clearly from the other SEBO models. In collaboration with the designer Prof. Achim Heine a new striking shape has been created: it is purposeful, stylish and unique. Two fundamental geometric shapes, a circle and a square, are united. The design epitomises the classic way of engineering which looks for the optimum form for the function. It is contrary to most other models where form inhibits function. The designer Prof. Achim Heine teaches “Product design” at the University of Arts in Berlin.

15.5 m cleaning range– for more manoeuvrability
6 l filter bag – for more capacity, economic in use
Illuminated power display with LED performance indicators
High quality stainless steel telescopic tube
Optimized air flow and tapered hose – for more suction
Variable suction control in the ergonomic handle
Includes the innovative SEBO KOMBI
3 integrated attachments on board– for more cleaning options..."

Further reading from the manual shows Sebo installing a slow turn on the rotary dial on the main body for slow suction and faster turn for faster suction.

By looking at their online manual, it says the airflow for their highest end model is only 45 liters/second, which equates to 95.349 CFM per http://www.onlineconversion.com/flow_rate_volume.htm. Their C-series has 170 CFM! That's nearly TWICE the cleaning power, right?! This is kind of worrying me on the performance aspect here 0_o. Anyone care to chime in? Maybe the suction and airflow together on this new machine will equal or beat the C-series. That's certainly my hope and guess. Has anyone used these yet? If so, what do you think of the performance?

The C series had a 1500 watt maximum motor. D series 1 and 2 has Eco friendly 1600 watt motors (*naturally they're going to be stronger than the C series) whilst the top level ones are 2100 watt, same as the K series.  I got mine the other day. You'll have to wait for the review though!

vacmanuk wrote:

You DO realize that just because it draws more wattage does NOT equal better performance, correct? It's still a bit disconcerting about their airflow ratings and it being basically half of what the C-series is, HOWEVER, again, that could just be all irrelevant numbers due to the a combination of the suction and possibly more HEAVY airflow (from stronger suction) equating just as good if not better performance. However, I'm very confident that due to it being Sebo they will only provide the near-highest or HIGHEST possible quality product, which I'm hoping is the case, but I'll wait for your review to confirm. SWEET! Can't wait! Just BE SURE to include pictures!!!! :D

Hertz wrote:
I dont tend to put on photos really. No point in that- otherwise I'd make a video - and I may do that in time.

Frankly I dont care much as to how much suction the machine draws out. I'm disappointed that SEBO have not stuck with the X bags though, The new D series uses a new bag designed only for this model. Always felt that it was from a better point of view to have the old X bag in the C cylinder as a matter of cost cutting but one that works well given the sales of the X model and availability of the bags. SEBO is not about offering the highest quality, Hertz, they are a design engineering company first and foremost.

vacmanuk wrote:

I think it's *GREAT* that they're going with a a bigger capacity which should ultimately equal lest cost to the consumer because instead of having to buy multiple smaller bags with all that plastic on them, you'll just be buying one BIGGER bag with just one set of plastic bits and bobs on the top for sealing and dispensing. Sure they design and engineer, but one of their main goals to offer HIGH quality products, and for the money you spend, I would say they're some of the highest quality out there, which is obviously their intent then. I would say, again, they both tie into each other in this case; design/engineering/quality. Please do a video soon then!

Using a basic Kirby flo meter the Miele pulls about 20 percent more airflo despit the 170 cu ft claim, I sell both, sorry I know this started as the vdta thread which I skipped this year

Actionvac wrote:

This was the worse year for VDTA attendance in the 3 years I've been here.  Not surprising. 

Carmine D.

PS: Correction 4 years.

Actionvac wrote:

Very interesting. Would you say a Miele would outlcean a SEBO however? And how does a Dyson compare in terms of waterlift and Airflow? DC-14, to be exact?

Well, it appears the HYCLEAN bags Miele introduced recently fixed the problem with S5's and dust leakage. 
The S5 Capricorn I tried out yesterday had its HYCLEAN bag nearly full, but no dust on the HEPA filter and airflow remained remarkably good.

As for SEBO, I've not seen the D4 anywhere around Portland OR, but I've not ventured into the niche dealers yet (the larger chains do carry Miele in quantity).

vacomatic wrote:

Recently? Sorry, but I've had my Capricorn for at least over the two year mark and have always used the high-filtration "Hyclean" bags. If you've read any of my posts you'll have found me nearly raving about the bags ability for high dust capture.

Do't know if the standard still stands but Filter Queen's conical cellulose filters were the benchmark for that. I'd never seen a match until Miele's high-filtration bags. However, I think it's probably by matter of choice that many Miele users may buy the lesser bags Miele offers due to price. The high-filtration bags can run about $19.00 for a box of five.

The problem with high-end vacuums -- the ones that actually live up to their promises I mean -- is that you can't go "cheapie" on anything that keeps the unit operating optimally.

Venson

Venson wrote: Venson, to be fair this is an issue that has been ongoing - and ever since I and others on here have brought to attention the HyClean original bags that had dust leaking from the seal cap. This is because of the central ribbon section that pushed dirt to the top and the inner seal round bit would often snag, not closing up properly. The newer bags don't have the central section of ribbons built in but still have the same layers of filtration. I think this is what Vacomatic is referring to.

As for "the problem with high end vacuums," you can actually go "cheapie" if you know vacuums in general and their upkeep - to keep the unit operating manually.

For example, currently I no longer have a large "old style" Miele canister apart from my S381. I gave away my old S571 a couple of months ago to a lady who owns a little coffee shop and was forever going through a new vacuum cleaner every couple of months. We both agreed that suction, power and bagless disposal was not the best way to go and so I sold my Miele S571. She has already gone through 2 HyClean dust bags - however I managed to find a cheapy copy imitation product costing the same price as the standard box of 4 Hyclean bags for 15 copy imitation bags that have the older Miele "IntensiveClean," filtration. How did I find this out? I simply took one out and cut it up to see what it was made of. I can tell you now that whilst copy imitation bags are not recommended by any manufacturer, I was most surprised about the copy bags and have since bought a pack of 15 for myself - I don't see why I have to pay out for the genuine articles when picking up DIY work that can be safely disposed of in a high filtration copy bag compared to something that I'd keep IN the home rather than use in the garage.

The bags that my lady friend has also has an original genuine Active Air Clean filter fitted and it works well with the copy imitation bags fitted.

Now onto SEBO. The SEBO clip filter cartridge that has to be fitted on the base of the Felix/Dart bin can be quite expensive to buy. I've been using a cheapie imitation for well over a year and I can report that neither the motor or casing has been damaged using this copy imitation. I wouldn't dream of using copy bags because I have done in the past and found that the plastic seals on them tore away from the bag as the weight got progressively worse. The filter in question is fitted to my Dart commercial upright which I use whenever I'm called to clean homes. The Dart also has non-SEBO branded tools that fit and are far cheaper to replace than using the standard ones that could be retained for future use.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

To force the matter, many if not all manufacturers will void warranties if other than genuine parts, like bags, belts and filters, are used for replacement.  So... based on this widely accepted industry practice, I agree with you on the statement of yours that I highlighted.  While some industry replacements as VacmanUK points out are excellent quality and match the makers' the problem is not all are.  Manufacturers can't trust all consumers to have the savvy that Vacmanuk has, so they disclaim all the parts that are not their own and genuine.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hi vacmanuk,

There I both agree and disagree. How many out a hundred know a vacuum as well as you or I -- or are looking to?

For years we've had imitation filtering medium for Filter Queen and Electrolux -- two vacuums whose makers swear by specially designed dust collection systems and filtering medium for performance. I found neither an obvious match to the original.

Even if there were, I prefer caution and am reluctant to advise the average Joe or Josephine to shop around for substitutes as they usually go off retaining only half of what you've told them. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who daily arrive at stores looking for vacuum bags though barely knowing the brand name of their cleaner much less its model number. It's far better to let the like stick to the rules especially if they laid out a lot of jack on a "good" vacuum.

Venson

Ha Ha Ha, Venson

My regular customers  are clueless on what machine they have.

It goes like this i got it at a yard sale it's green has a lot of suction and tools that we dont how to use.

Venson wrote:
As with most buyers though, Venson and a fair point that Mole raises here, most buyers don't know the model number or care to know more about the model they own. Whilst it's not entirely a same example, when looking for remote control batteries for TV, my LG manual cites "always buy Duracell," but I currently have heavy duty JVC ones in mine that do the same job and half the cost. I hear what you're saying about buying Genuine accessories and consumables though; there are quite a few imitation copy parts I've used that haven't faired so well, but you take a chance in the same way you take a chance with something inferior or cheaper at cost.

vacmanuk wrote:

Sometimes manufacturers recommend other brand products to be used in concert with their own.  Usually stemming from a business venture or relationship that they may have in common.  Or management execs who worked at both and keep the professional ties binding.

Carmine D.