Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Shark is going after the Dyson Ball pretty hard with the Navigator product.  It claims no loss of suction and claims its just as easy to maneuver as the Dyson Ball.  After acknowledging Dyson as the first to offer no loss of suction, they go for the throat.  They do a direct comparison to a Dyson Ball and state that they are equal in all ways (easy to maneuver, no loss of suction, 5 year warranty) but price.  For less than $200 you can get a Shark Navigator with a free steam cleaner thrown in to boot. 

Hello SEVERUS:

Thanks for the heads-up.  Fox News is running the TV advert in prime time with a British speaking male voice [obviously to mimic Sir James] played over a new dyson DC25 Ball and American speaking savvy female voice played over the Skark Navigator.  The ad is a classic.  Sure to win advertising accolades and take sales away from dyson.  It's a gem.

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Hi Severus,

The Navigator has been out for a while. It is a re-tool of a bagless two motor precursor Shark/Euro-Pro had been making prior. (I bought one.) The prior version was one of the pleated filter bagless vacuums I referred to that started out with a lot of oomph that fizzled out if the filters weren't frequently changed. If I recall correctly Shark/Euro-Pro was pushing a filter subscription program that cent out replacement filters every three months. I never bothered and eventually dumped my machine because the filters, less that five inches in diameter, cost nearly $17.00 to replace.

Also Shark is responsible for the Infinity uprights that are also cyclonic. I do not know why they seem to have disappeared other than due to the company's sketchy rep as regards customer service.

The nice thing about either of these Shark uprights was that attachment use was very convenient in comparison to Dyson.

Venson

CarmineD wrote:
Shark had some pretty good testimonials in the infomercial.  They  had a teacher using it in the classroom.  It was marketing genius the way they used the children to thank Shark for such a great vacuum.  The snooty British "Dyson" voice was clever as well.   It should be a really effective ad.  Bagless buyers want the no loss of suction (i.e. simple maintenance), but they don't want to pay the high Dyson price.   Shark has made some pretty good products.  I think the powered sweeper has been a big hit with consumers.  It's not something I'd buy, but I've seen them in a lot of restaurants. 

For $200 with a free steam cleaner for the hard floors, the Shark Navigator looks like a good value.  I think Shark looked long and hard at Dyson's products, and made some real improvements to the usability of the vacuum.    The Shark uses 2 motors, so it avoided the problems associated with the Dyson clutches.   It is lightweight, and they claim that they have lab tests proving that it's as maneuverable as the Dyson Ball, but has a lower profile to get under furniture better.   Shark corrected several Dyson weaknesses with their design.

Based on the clever improvements and the ability to do it at a much lower price, I may have to change my screen name to "Shark Invents Big". 

Severus wrote:

I like that moniker.  Sharks survive by swallowing up the least of their competition in the wild.    You're on to something BIG.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

It would only be a sequel.  Dyson swallowed Hoover in the original show.  Heck, Dyson even has Oreck hiding on the shelves of the BB stores.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You still have ORECK and HOOVER stuck in your craw and can't see straight.  Get over it and move on.  Tho ORECK is a neighbor of yours. 

Dyson's DC25 ball is the prey here AND the predator if you can imagine is Shark's Navigator.  Unheard of.  Simply amazing to quote ORECK.  Big bad dyson bested by SHARK.  Shades of tiny young helpless David and the behemoth armor cladded Goliath.  The former killed the latter with a pebble.  Too funny.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
You should do the same with DYSON and move on.  

Hardsell,

The interesting thing about the Shark ad is that they claim to be equal to the Dyson Ball in everything but price.  However, they compare themselves to the  the Hoover Windtunnel bagless.   Technically, they compare themselves to a Hoover Windtunnel bagless with 4 cups of flour crammed in the pleated filter.  They make a point to empty the canister very gently to ensure that they do not perturb the flour caked onto the filter. 

Personally, I would have liked to see them go head to head against the Dysons in the tests, but the Hoover is higher rated in the Consumer Reports ratings. 

The Bissell Dyson clone - the Healthy Home would is another good choice for consumers who want a no loss of suction bagless that cleans better than the Dyson.   While the Dyson may offer the original non water based no loss of suction filtration system,  most of the clones outperform the corresponding Dysons on carpeting according to Consumer Reports.  Given the state of the economy, many consumers don't mind a knockoff that is equivalent to the Dyson in no loss of suction, particularly given the huge discounts.   In my humble opinion, Dyson has a tendency to overengineer simple things to "justify" the high cost of his vacuums.  The complexity isn't always a plus.  Dyson makes a good bagless vacuum, but there's no justification for the huge price differential. 

The Shark Navigator is made in China. Bissell Healthy Home is made in China too. Dyson is made in Maylasia.

HARDSELL wrote:

As SEVERUS and others point out all vacuum makers have and overtaken dyson in the process.

You and dyson are still stuck in neutral.  Even tho you have purchased 2 of the latest HOOVER products and have praised at least one, which Consumer Reports rates 2 overall in upright class, and recommended to others here.  In my book, you've made the choice of HOOVER over dyson but still can't accept it as the better product over dyson.  Stuck in your craw. 

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Agree with your post SEVERUS.  May I add to your point [that I highlighted]:  Many would say it is a mark of wisdom [perhaps even genius] to keep it so simple and effective that anyone can use it. 

Carmine D.

One of the pluses I noted of the Shark Infinity bagless over dyson's bagless is the ability to remove the 18 cyclones and wash and dry and reinstall.  Voila, brand new again.  This is a "no-no" for all dyson cyclones, old and new.  Wonder if the Shark Navigator cyclones are the same as the Infinity.  

Carmine D

KirbyUltimateG wrote:

KirbyUltimateG:

Just curious, are you saying that Dyson's labor costs in Malaysia justify the higher cost?   Or are you just pointing this out as a difference between the Dysons and the clones? 

I'm not sure, but I think the Navigator also has a shorter hose for cleaning with tools.   It looks easier to use than the Dyson's hose, but I don't think it can stretch a flight of stairs.  For the many customers with single level homes, this would seem to be another plus. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell,

Just curious - do you think Hoover under TTI is better off than it was under Maytag?   How are you liking your Hoover platinum lightweight vacuum?

I am pointing out the difference between the Dyson and the other clones.

KirbyUltimateG wrote:

any idea why Sir James decided to build his vacuums in Malysia? 

Severus wrote:

Remember how Carmine claimed that Gary cheated against Oreck and Dyson.  Why do you think Shark would not?  I would not take a free vac with pleated filter.  I used a Bissell HH agains the DC07 and my preference was the 07.  I believe little to nothing reported by CR as I have not achieved the same results in real world use as they report.  THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO VACUUMS.

I agree that knock offs very often best the originals.  I still think that the DC07 was an excellent vacuum.  It has been downhill for Dyson ever since IMO.  JD has let his ego stand in  the way of success.  I am not married to any brand and have no reservations with changing to what best serves my needs.  I have defended Dyson not because it is the best but simply I do not think it is as bad as those who never profited from it would have the world believe.  What has or does satisfy me will not do the same for all. I would advise everyone to try (regardless of commodity) for yourself and take what any other says with a grain of salt.

Severus wrote:

Other than the Platinum series I do not notice any improvements to Hoover.  Please remember this is coming from a user only.  Sometimes user views are as accurate as those blinded by what they sell (or sold) IMO.  I like the platinum very much.  I finally sold the Kirby.  Still have the Rainbow and Royal.   The platinum leaves the carpet looking more groomed than the others.  In three months the platinum bag has collected a lot of dust and debris.  Unscientifically it seems to be picking up more thatn the others. The lack of brush turn off is one of the biggest faults on the platinum.  Still it cleans hard surfaces without problem. However, I am concerned about the brush damaging my wood flooring.  Recently I gave it an inspection.  I removed the sole plate and found what I consider too much dirt, dust and carpet fuzz trapped under it.  I did this because I could see fuzz hung in the inlet behind the brush.  Time will tell if this will be a problem.  The canister that is included is powerful.  I use it to clean hard surfaces due to the brushes on the upright.  Like all others that I have used the wheels do leave tracks on the carpet.

Recently I saw the Oreck XL Signature at Target.  I then visited an Oreck center to ask the difference in it and what they sold.  I got the expected song and dance about why his was better.  Longer warranty. 1 year at store vs 3 at Target in same price range (can you figure this out).  Better brush (reduces or prohibits germ build up). How long before this coating wears off as bristles wear?  Better outer bag.  Again his was perforated where Target bag is same as his more expensive Oreck .  Store manager told me that Signature was not recommended for hard surfaces because the single speed would cause debris/dust to be scattered with no low speed. I said that I would use the hand held for that chore.  He commented that it was not durable for running that length of time and would likely burn out the motor.  I mentioned that the platinum did just fine on hard surfaces on high.  It was amusing to listen to him back up on his original statements.  I guess as an independent there is nothing wrong with his lies to upgrade a sale. 

I went directly to Target and bought a XL Signature.  My opinion has not changed from my experience with the XL21.  Oreck simply does not perform.  I have a very short pile rug over tile in one room.  The Oreck is almost impossible to push/pull on it.  It bounces and skips across my other carpet when pulling back.  It sounds as if it is scraping the finish off the wood floors.  The cord must weight 5 lbs.  The hand held has very very low suction power.  The XL bag could pass for new after 3 uses.  No cleaning power.

Who is backing the 3 yr Target warranty? Target or Oreck? I'm hearing from irate franchise owners that they won't do BBS warrantees. I can just hear the loud speaker at Target "Jenny... Vacuum Repair on Aisle 3!"

Im totally confused now.. on the basis that you were given a good opinion about an Oreck's poor performance you went ahead and bought one anyway?

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HS:

I highlighted two of your statements for additional clarification.

Thanks for quoting me to answer SEVERUS.  BUT.....I stated Garry disconnected the belt on the ORECK to prevent it from picking up the M&M's and cheerios in the TV infomercial.  I provided you the proof for my statement.  I never mentioned dyson in that comparison.  NEVER.  You can/may deduce that Garry would do the same with dyson as ORECK in that TV infomercial.  However, at a minimum it would be a stretch, and more correctly outright wrong to use me as the proof to deduce that Shark would do the same against dyson in an entirely different TV advertisement.  I NEVER said it.  You have no proof for your statement that Shark would cheat, other than your opinion/assumption, and tho I'm flattered, no proof to quote me.

WRT the ORECK dealer/sore, if he/she is the owner/operator of a franchised ORECK store he is not and independent, tho I agree he was pushing the envelope with the sale.

Carmine D. 

HARDSELL wrote:
Thanks for your comments.   Oreck seems to be making some of the mistakes that Aerus/Lux made in going the big box store route (i.e. undercutting the Oreck stores).     Has there been a change in management at Oreck?   David Oreck is a very shrewd salesman.   I can't believe he would allow the company stores to have worse deals than Target. 

Given that you can achieve "no loss of suction" performance with this vacuum at 1/3 the price, it seems like a good choice.   Has anyone put one of these head to head against a Dyson Ball to compare performance?    Unfortunately, Consumer Reports did not test the Shark Navigator.   If I were in the market for a Dyson Ball,  I would give one of these a chance first.  Given the venues that will give you a 30 day or longer money back guarantee, it seems like a no lose opportunity. 

Apparently Dyson needs to charge higher prices in order to afford the high cost of robots to place in future Dyson stores. 

Aerus went BBS???? Isn't there an Asian controlled Big Money Holding Co syndicate running Oreck now? I'm pretty sure their responsible.

Lucky1 wrote:
Sorry, I misspoke slightly.   A long time back Electrolux (before changing name to Aerus), sold vacuums cheap on QVC and also sold uprights at Sam's Club.  The prices at these venues were cheaper than through company stores. 

I still hear David Oreck on the radio.  His latest greatest vacuum can spin on a dime and comes with bonus vacuums.   

Severus wrote:

Agree SEVERUS.  If I didn't know better, I'd say ORECK is looking to down size its network of stores.  Things change.  Not always for the better.

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

And pay the higher UK taxes imposed recently.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Although someone like Dyson who regularly file new patents would stand to benefit in the near term, with recently announced R&D tax incentives in the UK.

M00seUK wrote:

The government giveth.......and the government taketh away...........

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Why did the price drop so much?  Are the bags particularly small or something?  I take it that you are not a fan of canisters.   

I wonder if the Miele Art, suction only uprights, could be had at a decent price.  Have they been discontinued?  

Severus wrote:

SEVERUS:

You're right.  I am not a cann and tank person.  More upright centered. 

The EUR/LUX Intensity never sold well despite it's good rug performance and desirable features.  No doubt in large part due to the appearance which never appealed to most vacuum customers.  I suspect this model is discontinued and may even be replaced by another lightweight model from EUR/LUX very soon.  Bag is very small.  Interesting that you compare/mention along with the MIELE Art series.  I do too especially in appearance.  The straight suction MIELE Art series ups are no longer sold on the MIELE Web Site.  IMHO, made and sold to yuppies during the dot.com/high tech boom to buyers with lots of disposable income.  Tho, Consumer Reports rated the MIELE Art series decently on rugs. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Sadly I have watched family owned businesses falter when the younger generation takes the throne.

The old work ethics still prevail over modern business ideas.  Today's generation wants the income with less work.

They do not have the dedication of those such as yourself.

Lucky1 wrote:

Lucky, can't answer your question honestly.  I do understand the franchise owners balking.

I considered the source of the information (salesman wanting to upgrade a sale to a two speed).  Other Oreck salesmen have said single speed is OK.

Look back and see how many opinions I and others have been given about excellent Oreck performance.  All the nagatives that I have posted about my first Oreck still exist.  Regardless of CR or 55 year veterans praise I find the Oreck to be inferior to any vacuum that I have owned.

HARDSELL wrote:

Obviously HS if you are comparing a strictly upright mode lightweight to full size vacuums with attachments then you are going to be disappointed.  I see you like the HOOVER Platinum lightweight much better than ORECK.  Tho you despise and impughn Consumer Reports vacuum ratings, CR gave it number 2 overall in the upright class.  And you seem to agree so far.  I personally and professionally think CR was generous in the rating/ranking and rate/rank both ORECK and Platinum lightweight comparable overall.  But each stronger than the other in different areas.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

You are welcome.  However it was not flattery.  Simply a reference to your opinion.  I used Dyson simply to indicate the infomercial to which I was referring.  Being you usual self you think that Oreck was cheated but Dyson could not possibly be. My comment was not more a streteh than yours.   Get over it.  You proved nothing.  My experience with Oreck is as valid as yours.  I think it is a POS and we both are entitled to an opinion.

What validates an independent?

CarmineD wrote:

Why should I be disappointed.  Oreck advertises to compete with the big boys.  More deceipt according to you.

I have not found an area where Oreck was stronger.

I never make a buying desicion based on Clown Reports.

HARDSELL wrote:

I didn't take it as flattery.  I took as a statement you made out of context that needed further clarification especially since you used me as the source.  As I recall from the Garry infomercial compares Garry and a dyson ball strictly on the lower vacuum profile not performance.  No cheating on that issue.  It is what it is.

Look up the definition of independent in the dictionary and you have Webster's answer.  It is my answer to your question too.  Tho I suspect if I were to respond to you independently, you will have your doubts. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Marketing, HS.  ORECK is 9/10 pounds.  That makes it easier and better for alot of folks who for whatever reasons are not inclined to pull out a full size vacuum with attachments.  That's a strength.  Simple operation.  My 5 year grand daughter uses it.  That's a strength.  One of the largest if not the largest dust bag on the market.  That's a strength.  Just to mention a few.

I don't make buy decisions based solely on CR ranks/ratings either and advise others the same.  We agree on that point.

Carmine D.

 

CarmineD wrote:

I've had an Eureka/Lux intensity on the sales floor for 2 years and can't sell the thing, (though I'm not down to $90 dollars). Seems like it would work well, but has a very small bag and I think the electronics of all the Eureka/Luxes I have dealt with, are POORLY done. As for the Art I have 1 on the floor and 1 in carton. I've sold a few and have used it personally on my wood floors and liked it. Small bag as well. They are both cool stylewise in their own ways. I would say the Elux (when working) would be better on carpet but I seriously doubt long term reliability. The Art seems very well made in comparison.

SEVERUS The Electrolux Intensity wasn't much cop here in the UK. Sold at £299 before being dropped like a hot potato. Not only the appearance put it off but the actual fact that owners have to bend down to change the bag, pull the cord out and pay through the nose for the small capacity bags. Miele Art is the same; it may have done well in consumer testing companies, but sales have been flagging and Miele discontinued it a couple of years ago because of a lack of power (1000 watts) and no roller bar assisted brush rolls. Pure suction and very poor on carpet pick up. Miele Art seems to be a favourite appearing on EBAY by previous owners and the tool storage/hose thing seems to get broken easily too. Artistic yes but not very practical for both "uprights." On another note the heavy Electrolux Professional upright arrived 2 years ago selling at £199 but it has dropped in price massively to £59-99. Styled very clearly in the form of Sebo's BS commercial uprights, UK consumers have been slow to pick up on its Arm and Hammer coated dust bags too.

vacmanuk wrote:

vacmanuk,

I've been fairly pleased with the Arm and Hammer dust bags that I bought for my Royal Powercast.   I have a long haired dog, and the exhaust was fairly stinky with regular bags.  The Arm and Hammer bags seem to do a good job of absorbing the stinky dog smell.   I haven't noticed any drop off in suction, but then again I think the dog hair likely turns into extra filter material. 

Severus wrote:

I've used the Arm & Hammer in several bagged vacuums and am duly impressed.  Enough to recommend along with the original brand's paper bags.  Excellent products and widely available among retailers.  Paper bags have made huge strides in product reliability and performance in recent years.  Finally. 

Carmine D.

In the UK wehre we have Kim and Aggie's How Clean Is Your House, there's been a few episodes where theyve recommended adding baking powder manually to dust bags in vacuums. Thus and on the basis that online bicarb of soda powder is mentioned for a myriad of odour control solutions I and others have done the bicarb of soda in bags manually. It does keep odours away but I would'nt imagine many buying the upright on that basis just because bags may well come with the stuff added into the layers. I think the reason to why the Electrolux Professional has done badly is because of an online "independent" test that was shown recently in the UK. Having read Kim and Aggie's Ultimate Guide to Cleaning where no manufacturer is actually listed to vacuum cleaner brand preference, on TV their cleaning companies use a mix of Henry canisters and Sebo's BS commercial uprights. If you're interested in watching the video shown here's the link: http://fwd.five.tv/gadget-show/videos/jon-test/jon-tests-vacuum-cleaners You'll see from this that the Professional model gets the thumbs up from Kim but the carpet tests reveals that pick up wasn't as successful as the two bagless uprights shown.

Tried to watch the videos but unsuccessful.  Warning message says unable to watch from location/country.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

Did all Vacuums tested have a Brushroll or were they suction only?

vacmanuk wrote:

What kind of test dirt did they use in their tests?  

If Dyson's were more sturdy, I would think they would make a good commercial cleaner for low pile carpeting.

Severus wrote:

Agree.  The bagless venue if properly constructed offers an ideal product for the commercial cleaning market.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I would think they would want to copy some of the features of the Windsor/Sebo line as well.   The long hose could go, and be replaced with a better set up - like the Shark Navigator's.   

They used the following contents to test pick up: Bird seed Coco pops Plastic squares (about 1") or it may have been chocolate squares Hay flecks An actual bag of household dust mixed in Actual pet hair The video doesn't give a complete iota of what has been tested as a stats list but rather used visually for a quick assessement. Both the Hoover and the Dyson bagless uprights picks up 100% whereas the Professional bagged Electrolux left a few bits out.

vacmanuk wrote:

I would have liked to see the video.   I think there are some differences in how carpets are tested in the US and UK.   Dyson seems to do a lot better in the UK tests than the US tests.  Perhaps the lower voltage US machines just don't clean as well. 

The Five Gadget Show in the UK is an independent company so the test carried out - I think - isn't as variable as the one they showed. It was after all a short presentation to see which out of the three vacs tested picked up and remained the most versatile. Hoover's awful Slalom (I had one!) seemed to agree with what I initially didnt like about it - tools and mechanisms that dont quite work making it time consuming. I was really surprised about the so-called Electrolux Professional. I thought they would have gone with the Sebo inspired design and fitted a motor drive belt, but no it runs on old fashioned rubber belts and you have to manually change the height setting of the brush bar. Im not that surprised that it didn't do too well on the pick up test though - the brush roll seemed to be at odds with its general design and I think the strips are replaceable.

Happened to be in the local KOHL's and stopped by the vacuum aisle to scope out the Navigator.  Only one available was the display.  Apparently the store had a run on them for the Christmas holidays.  Talked with staff there and appranetly the lightweight and price are pluses with the buyers.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I'm not surprised.   If you can get Dyson like performance for 1/3 the price, it makes an attractive purchase.  I like the simple cleaning hose for attachments too.

Severus wrote:

SEVERUS:

Perhaps most vacuum consumers, even big box store shoppers/buyers, are smarter than some vacuum makers/their marketeers realize.  Abe Lincoln was right when he said:  You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Carmine D.

Another new Shark product at KOHL's stores.  Looks impressive.  Good price.  Cordless.  2 battery packs: one for use and one for back-up.  Revolving brush for carpets.  Bagless venue is perfect for stick/hand vacuum usage. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I'm still not sold on cordless for household appliances, but it looks like a nice way to extend the cordless time.  Perhaps Dyson will copy Shark and start adding a second battery to their handheld. 

Severus wrote:

Internet reviews of the Shark navigiator are piling up and appear very good.  A recent TV ad pits a James Dyson look alike complete with hair and accent and his famed dyson upright to an American housewife and a lowly shark navigator.  The latter wins out over the former in every category including price.  Bed Bath and Beyond as well as other retailers, like Target, BEST BUY, Frys, etc all carry and sell the Shark Navigator and their customers give it glowing reviews.  Bagless competition is fierce presently especially with pricing. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Thanks Carmine.  I'm glad to learn that good AND affordable competition is out there and, even better, buyers are speaking well of it.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

If I were still in the vacuum business, I'd carry and sell the Shark Navigator specifically for customers solely interested in a bagless upright.  It meets/beats the TOL big box store bagless brand.  Even if I didn't make any money on the Shark-Navigator sales, I'd keep bagless vacuum customer clientele.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Shark makes the worst products in the Vacuum business. I'd most certainly carry Dyson over ANYTHING shark.

Lucky1 wrote:

What's happening with the Shark Infinity uprights?  With their introduction, I was thinking Shark might be trying to clean up its act.  You can only go for so long hawking disposables despite a cheap price.  Shoppers, even the low-end ones, have better expectations and don't forget brand names when they feel they've been duped.  The company can't be unaware of its bad rep in past and though I don't have great expectations of its execs, I'd think it must know, despite the nicer pricing, that people do remember. 

The past Euro-Pro/Shark lightweight  models I've owned all got chucked due to short-lived filters which were expensive to replace.  I haven't really used one long term but think since these models new are relying on cyclonics and not the pleatyed filters as a mainstay as earlier models did, I'd suspect they've a better chance.

Venson

Lucky1 wrote:

If dyson offered a bagless upright with the same features and warranty [5 years] as the Shark Navigator for $150-$200, I'd carry and sell too for bagless vacuum customers.  Unfortunately, dyson is and always has been too expensive for most vacuum buyers who for the same dyson prices have much better options than dyson offerings at independent vacuum cleaner stores.

Carmine D.

Here is the Vax V-045 Widetrack sold in the UK from 2003. I had one and it was lousy. Horrible noise and hose that you had to attach permanently to the back of the handle and a mesh covered over a paper pleated cone filter. Years later I was shocked when I discovered a tarted up model that Euro Shark sell called the Infinity NV. Now of course several years after that the next one up in the line up uses a slightly different body and guess what, the TTi inspired "no loss of suction filters." Ive a feeling that Euro-Shark are using TTi but don't quote me, for their ranges.

Howdy all,

Just got back from browsing Costco.  The Shark's Navigator is there and priced at $150 which is just 5 bucks more than the store is asking for the rechargeable Hoover Platinum stick vac.  The Oreck combo -- upright and its portable vac -- is marked for $250.  The Dyson DC14, which hasn't been on the shelves for a while, is back and tagged at $400.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello venson:

If the $400 pricetag doesn't come down to $300, these old and discontinued DC14 models will merely collect dust and never sell.  In large part, the reason these dyson dinosaurs are still around new and for sale.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

You know, I sort of stood there in Costco counting backwards on my fingers -- DC28, and so on and so on -- and got to thinking, why hasn't this model been turned over to Overstock.com even though they have plenty already.  There is such a thing as moving on.  From a consumer's perspective, these oldies almost negate the worth of the later Ball models I'm expected to be impressed by.  Again, business-wise, it seems oddly another "shoot yourself in the foot" example.

Is it up to Costco or Dyson to do the right thing by getting discontinued models off store shelves?

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

It's up to dyson but the problem is that these dysons came to light in the end of year inventory conducted by COSTCO.  They were warehoused and forgotten due to a conspicuous lack of sales in COSTCO stores and replaced with better vacuum movers.  Now, COSTCO has to do something with them to move them out.  Forget dyson MAP.  Doesn't apply to them.  If these dysons don't sell at $400, and we know they won't, they will continually get reduced in price until they do.  Does two for one sound enticing?  Just to take a page from toyota's latest sales strategy.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
With the recent recalls from Honda and Nissan they may be offering super incentives to purchase also. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Competition is a wonderful thing for a buyers' market be it vacuums or other products.

Carmine D.

vacmanuk wrote:

Add another like-a-like in the $120 price range from EUREKA-lux.  One in purple.  One is yellow.  Hope the new Chief Designer doesn't get wind of this and decide to sue for color copying.   

Carmine D.

At least the Eureka one is different with a proper hose. The one on the Vax (and currently Vax have them again on their POWER uprights) has to be attached at the back of the handle which forms part of the suction tube when the handle is taken out. Its when hair and stuff gets clogged at the handle that the hose on the Vax takes a fair bit to take off.

vacmanuk wrote:

The $70 Eureka-lux Maxima more resembles the VAX with the much longer hose which is a nuisance for some users.

Carmine D. 

Nope I have to disagree Carmine, that Eureka model is different. Here's the bagged version of the Vax Widetrack / Dirt Devil had it out in the UK last year.

vacmanuk wrote:

The UK VAX bagged model you posted bears a striking resemblance to the USA EUREKA-lux Comfort Clean above IMHO that I posted with the commentary that they are same same.  

Carmine D.

PS a question:  Does the UK VAX bagged Widetrack have a cord rewind?   

Nope. None of the Vax models have any cord rewind apart from top spec Mach 7 uprights. Electrolux UK are about to release their EASE uprights based on the First Eureka you posted here. That model range has auto cord rewinds.

vacmanuk wrote:

In the USA, VAX upright bagless models X3 and X5 were among the first in 2005/6 to offer cord rewinds.  HOOVER [before TTI ownership] offered cord rewind in the HOOVER Elite Rewind [and still] in 2005/6 and still.  EUREKA-lux with the Intensity in 2005/6 and now finally with models like the Comfort Clean bagless upright. Also offered now on the latest HOOVER T-Series bagless uprights.  BTW, both the HOOVER T-series and EUREKA -lux Comfort Clean uprights receive Consumer Reports ratings of Recommended/BEST BUY.  With no mention of the cord rewinds at all by CR.  One of my pet peeves with CR.  Should be a feature listed.

Carmine D. 

Ah, sorry Carmine, I was referring to the Chinese built models spurned on by Dirt Devil -  the Vax VX series always had auto cord rewinds - and the U.S know these as the X3 / X5 but they're based on Bosch uprights and it was a collaborative effort from Bosch and Vax when they appeared in the late 1990s. Bosch only had them on the market for a limited period. Vax kept them on for longer.

vacmanuk wrote:

Yes, Bosch Siemens ran a promo in the US, buy one of their appliances and get the vacuum free.  So we have it at least for VAX, TTI, and Eureka-lux:  Cord rewinds on uprights are becoming standard issue even on the bottom of the line models. 

Carmine D.

The UK had auto cord rewinds in the 1980's on many hard box uprights from Electrolux and Hoover including the Turbopower models we had "going under the name of "Autoflex." I believe the U.S had the British models under the name of Hoover "Sovereign."



Hoover however stopped production of auto cord rewind motors in the end of the 1980s and Electrolux also followed suit. The problem seemed to be that the motors inside were forever breaking. Panasonic UK were one of very few brands in the 1990s who kept making uprights with auto cord rewinds but these are now obsolete.

I actually got to see the Navigator at Costco yesterday.  Couldn't turn it on -- no near by electrical outlet -- but got to maul it a bit.  Though not a great fan of bagless vacs, I did very much like the fact that the Navigator easily disassembles.  The bin lifts off with the push of a button and the cyclonics module can be accessed with the press opf a lever.  Another lever on the module allows it to come apart for easy cleaning to maintain optimal performance.

The "shroud" is made of wire mesh and I did wonder if it might be prone to clogging.  There is a large round filter that seats underneath the collection bin. I'd have liked a slightly more sturdy feel but reminded myself, what do you expect for only 170 bucks.  It appears that Costco has hopes for them as I saw a rather large amount of boxed up ones in proprtion to the other models they had out.

Best

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

One of the benefits of the Navigator is the ability to very easily and quickly remove and wash the 21 cyclones [it's called Infinity technology].  A closer look reveals 2 round thick sponge foam washable lifetime pre-motor filters atop a felt non-washable filter.  Lightweight at 15 pounds.  More maneuverable than most full size uprights on the market today, bagged/bagless.  Price is right at $160 but a bit on the chintzy side for my liking.  Nice stiff brush roll tufts but more on the order of a power head brush roll than full size upright. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Why would you think the lifetime filter is any more a lifetime than Dyson's? 

HARDSELL wrote:

Well if it isn't HS from the House of D:  Deez nuts.

• Since I'm old and will never buy another dyson again but will a Shark.  So the filters should easily last for my lifetime. 
• Because the 21 cyclones are washable in the Shark.  Not dyson. 
• Because the form and content of the Shark dual filters [not just one] in the Shark are better than dyson's and will withstand more washing. 
• IF Shark users wash the cyclones, less need and frequency for washing the filters. 

Next.  Pass the nuts please. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hardshell:

Me thinks you had to many nuts to eat.  Your brain is turned to peanut butter. 

If you can wash and clean the cyclones [as in the Shark Navigator] they perform for a lifetime.  No need to buy a $80 dyson cyclone assembly when the dyson cyclones get filled to the brim with dirt and pet odors.  Looks a little like a nut.  Hardshell but can't get it open to eat the inside.  Or clean it as the case may be.  It's like having a permanent sealed cloth bag that just fills and fills with dirt and you can't dump it out.  In time and with use, no air gets through it.  Just dirt in and dirt out.  On a good note after the Shark patent expires on the Infinity technology [washable cyclones] dyson can steal [I mean copy] the design for its use.  $150 Shark bagless upright with easily removable cyclones for lifetime cleaning.  Remarkable.  Why didn't dyson think of that?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You make some interesting points:

1. How in the world does Shark get a patent for washable cyclones?  

2. What does the spring do in the Dyson cyclone assembly?   Supposedly there is a spring inside the assembly that will rust if you wash the Dyson cyclones. 

Hi,

Haven't washable cyclones always been there?  My LG clone's bin and the cyclonics system within it are totally washable.  Thanks to my local Best Buy, where staff delegated for floor cleaning detail uses the first thing within reach, it was easy to see that dust did collect in the cyclonics module at the top of the machine and not just the bin. It was obvious that wahing was necessary.  Dyson is designed differrently but I don't doubt that the same issue may arise.

If indeed the Dyson cyclonic system does not lend itself to easy user maintenance maybe  that was not overlooked but intended.  (By the way, I checked ut Dyson online and reviewed a manual for the DC28.  There's no reference regarding cleaning the cyclonics module,  just an instruction to wash the filters with cold water every three months.)

Beyond filters and the occasional belt or broken part, bagless vacs should have less call for consumables that many manufacturers depend upon to boost their revenue. Or so Dyson appears to claim.  Maybe the module in an abstract way is a less obvious consumable.  However I don't kow the data as to how many are replaced or how frequently.

Venson

Severus wrote:

Hi SEVERUS:

Thanks SEVERUS.  Shark, despite its chintziness at $150 has the edge over dyson on the cyclones.  I'm not an expert on patent filing but I presume Shark obtained the patent for its Navigator with Infinity Technology [washable cyclones] the same way as any/all product makers:  Submitted the proper filings and paid the fees.  Infinity means forever as in lifetime and its symbol which never ends [continuous vertical 8].  The cyclones are the first line of defense for filtering dirt in all bagless vacuums.  Cyclones get clogged with dirt after use and over time.  It is inevitable.  The cyclone clogging degrades vacuum suction and operations.  Keeping the cyclones squeaky clean prolongs the efficiency of the cyclones, filters, and the motor, hence the vacuum operations.  Unlike dyson which requires/demands filter cleaning every 2-3 months, Shark says just a rinsing 2 times a year for filter maintenance.  Shark Navigator's washable cyclones make the difference.

IMHO, introducing water to a dyson cyclone assembly produces a muddy muck that dries rock hard and kills the operations of the cyclones alot quicker than a rusty spring.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

To my knowledge Shark Infinity model, now Navigator, is the first and only bagless with washable cyclones [not shrouds].  I'm not familiar with LG's bagless cyclones, operations and cleaning. I have to do further research/review on LG's bagless.

Carmine D.

For what it's worth, I used to wash the cyclone assembly on my Eureka 4885 dual cyclone.   Other than Dyson, what bagless vacuums CAN'T have their cyclones washed?  

Severus wrote:

Hi SEVERUS:

Cyclones and/or shrouds?  In the EUREKA Whirlwind cyclone bagless uprights, the shroud and bins were washable.  The cyclones were contained and sealed and atop the bin/shroud.  Perhaps the difference is Venson's LG bagless clone is a cann vice an upright.  Different dirt path/cyclone operations on canns versus uprights.  Maybe.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

Had a chance yesterday to look at one already taken somewhat apart  at Wally....ill say that ease of cleaning/cyclones/ect  would be a breeze on it but im not too sure on how well the brushroll/powerhead  will be at deep cleaning  (prefer a full size suction motor driven roller....just me. ) Pretty light....quality of plastic is pretty good for what you pay......not bad for a bagless...anxious to hear some first use feedback on this one.

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello turtle:

Agree with you. 

Of note, at least to me, it appears most bagless upright and cann vacuums have disguised/veiled the cyclones from customers' view but clearly let the dirt show in the bins for dumping.  Except Shark Navigator which puts the cyclones behind clear plastic so users can see the dirt in them and also wash clean.  That gives Shark Navigator the edge in bagless from my perspective.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

How do you think it will perform on edge cleaning.

All machines that I have used with front exhaust are useless on hard surface vacuuming.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

One of the attachments on board is 24 inch long combo wand/crevice tool.  In concert with the quick release hose and high suction, edge cleaning at least with the attachments should be decent for this Shark Navigator, a lightweight upright.  Not sure YET about the edge cleaning at the nozzle head. 

When the upright is in the prone position exhaust expels up and outward, not straight ahead.  In attachment mode, the exhaust, by turning the vacuum around for tool use, expels to the rear of the vacuum and user.  Shouldn't be a problem.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I have read reports that the when using the hose it tips the vacuum over easily.  Also that the hose suction is reduced drastically with tool useage.  The cleaning path is reported to be narrow and edge cleaning is poor.  It weighs more than the DC24.

Who vacuums hard surfaces with an upright in the prone position.  By doing this one could probably blow the cobwebs from the ceiling.  A good upright can be used on hard surfaces without tools.  So I do see this as a problem.  At least for me.

This unfortunately will not be a year for doing any at-home testing at my place.  However, if had mad money I'd bring one home in a shot.

Due to its basically low price, it's not the kind of machine I'd expect perfection from.  Perfection appears starts at about 350 bucks higher than this machine sells for.  In any event, perfect is as perfect does.  Just below you will find an image of the Navigator's predecessor, the EP621.  It had strong suction and did well on carpeting.  It's main fault was the pleated filter it used for filtration.  The filter wasn't easy to keep clean and needed to be replaced every few months at a cost of about fifteen bucks or so.

Though it had a stretch hose it was not great at firmly standing its ground for above the floor work but I found it not that big a deal.  I simply held onto the handle of the machine if I had to reach.  The Navigator's power nozzle is basically a rehash of the EP621's.

The Navigator, a big improvement on an existing idea,  trumps the EP621 in that it's employing real cyclonics for dust separation.  I never had any problems with the EP621's exhaust and would not anticipate problems in the same area with the Navigator.  As for other faults like instability while using the hose it will probably prove a small thing for users it best suits.  I don't particularly see the Navigator in play as main cleaning tool in larger homes except as a supplemental machine, however in my neck of the woods -- lots of small apartment dwellers in need of all the space they can get the Navigator should do well.  Strong suction, decent cleaning and in need of a minimal amount of storage space.  Though I wouldn't consider a place for this machine in one of teh Rockefelllers' homes, thrift and decent performance will most likely make the Navigator worth the time and investment for many buyers.

Venson

Venson wrote:

You do realize by buying a Shark you will only encourage Euro Pro! LOL

Lucky1 wrote:

Yes, I know!  Has there been any improvement on the customer service end?

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

First some clarification:  Prone as in the handle is in the normal user position.  

Since you use a DC24, I read all the same criticisms you mention about the Shark Navigator about DC24.  Weight is 12 pounds for the DC24 and 15 pounds for the Navigator.  Both classified as lightweights. 

W*M and COSTCO are both recent retailers of the Shark Navigator.  Unfortunately, so new that there are no reviews of the Shark Navigator on their sites.  In fact it's not even on the COSTCO web site yet.  Difference in price between the two is huge.  That gives the edge to Shark as a lightweight upright.  Shark is $150.  DC24 is $300 and more.  I like the brush roll in the Shark much better than DC24.  DC24 is almost more vacuum stick like.  Shark is, at least, comparable to a decent size power head brush roll.  More what I would expect from a lightweight upright.  Plus, the washable cyclones puts the Shark over the edge for my liking versus a DC24.  Plus filter cleaning is only twice a year on Shark Naviogator versus 4-6 times per annum for DC24.

Here are some reviews on the Shark if you're interested. 

http://www.vacuumwizard.com/shark-navigator-vacuum.html

BEST BUY Shark Navigator reviews rate it 4.7 stars out of 5:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Shark+-+Navigator+No+Loss+of+Suction+Upright+Vacuum+-+Lavender/9350588.p?skuId=9350588&id=1218089484682

Perfect it's not.  Worth $150.  Most definitely.

I could not locate a picture of the Shark Navigator brush roller.  Here is a product video for the Shark Navigator on the Bed Bath And Beyond Web Site which takes only 1 minute and 35 seconds.  You get a very good perspective of the brush roller in use on floors and rugs as well as some of the other features you asked about and are discussed above, if you're interested.  Like all the dysons, Shark Navigator comes with a 5 year warranty.

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=16586927

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Prone is a downard position.  Mostly referred to as face down (and lying down).  So I have to assume you mean lean the vac forward rather than lay the handle down in a backwards motion.  How do you vacuum like that?

I was giving realistic opinions of users and not making any comparison to Dyson other than weight since you mentioned that it was a lightweight.  Neither you nor I can say which is better from personal experience.  However, a narrow vacuum path is a criticism.  Also weak motor prone to failure.  Can't leave out bad brush rolls (freezing).

I found 173 reviews of the Navigator on WM site.  Oldest dated 7-30-09.  Perhaps your computer is lagging as are you.  On the other hand I think it is another of your BS attempts to avoid others from finding the negatives. 

There are numerous other sites with reviews also.

Hardshell peanut brain:

 I use prone position to mean handle in the user position.  Prone because if the user lets the handle go in this position, most uprights are 'prone' to fall down. 

I admit I looked quickly at the W*M site.  Why?  You tend to kow tow W*M and its customers with your impugning remarks because Wal*Mart kicked dyson out several years ago.

So, instead I deliberately used BEST BUY, the company that sells the most dyson product and the place where you bought your dyson DC07, to show customer reviews are 4.7 stars out of 5 for the Shark Navigator.  Plus, Bed Bath and Beyond, a one time dyson vacuum retailer strictly at dyson MAP, which now runs a Shark Navigator video on it's vacuum page.  Are you seeing a trend here yet hardshell.

In any event, put whatever bagless upright you want against the Shark Navigator in a comparative analysis both as an upright and with attachments.  It fares as well as all the others if not better.  The reason these and other big box retailers advertise, promote and sell Shark Navigators.

I know that must break your dyson heart.

Carmine D.

From the W*M web site for vacuums.  Of 173 reviews by Walmart customers the Shark Navigator gets almost 5 stars.  Picture gives a good view of the lightweight bagless vacuum, its brush roll and see thru washable cyclones and bin.  This is either a W*M exclusive or not the latest Shark Navigator [latter is more likely the case] which is available in Lavender now.

Carmine D.

QVC sells the Shark navigator Lavender for $170.  Here's a video from its web site which gives a good sense of the noise level during operation with and without the brush roll engaged.  The TV demo-ers are talking in their regular voices while taking the Shark Navigator through its steps.  Also demoes and features the extra long hose for vacuuming steps and stairwells.  QVC calls the Shark Navigator a top rated seller with 91 percent of the buyers recommending to others.

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view.2/app.detail/params.CM_SCID.COLL.item.V29525.desc.Shark-Navigator-Upright-Vacuum-w-Power-Brush-Accessories

Impressive for the price. Note the "Never Loses Suction" imprinted on the latest Shark Navigator Lavender in the demoes vice the previous Shark Model which does not carry the claim.  I suspect the patent receipt makes the difference in the usage of this product claim on the Shark Navigator.

Carmine D.

tCarmineD wrote:

Ive  read and seen where the dyson brushroll has undergone alot of r&d...to make it as good or better than the rest. yet many still say its sub par and doesnt deep clean. ...and if the build up of dirt in the cyclones has been an issue since the start with dyson why have they yet to fix this problem/s....or at least make the cyclones washable......shark seems to have addressed these issues from what ive read...why is dyson not  using 400 engineers to address the issues that have been a problem from the start....yet a ball was the more important issue..airmuscle tech .....why complicate the simple....shark seems to have kept it simple and address dysons issues at a third to half the price

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

To dyson's credit, it finally after 8 consecutive years of worst uprights and cyclinders ratings in Europe earned respect from Which? for its products.  Sadly, it hasn't done the same in the USA with Consumer Reports.  Got on the fringes of top 10 with DC17 at a 10/11 rating but never higher.  Some here indluding dyson fans maintained that winning CR's respect in the reviews and ratings was tantamount to success.  Hasn't happened yet and it's been 8 years since the USA launch.

Carmine D.

The thing is though, I don't consider this Shark to be a proper upright vacuum. It looks like a stick vac with a powered motor head on it, similar to Sebo's Felix upright. Therefore can it actually be a flagrant copy of Dyson at the third of price? That filtration system also looks very similar to the one adopted on Bissell's Easy Vac too:

vacmanuk wrote:

The Shark Navigator Pet is classified as a lightweight at 15 pounds.  Comes with a 5 year warranty.  Tools and hose length for stairs equal those of a full size vacuum making it a formidable contender against full size uprights and canisters.  I believe you are posting a picture of a previous and earlier Shark Navigator, not the latest.  Much to the chagrin of other bagless uprights the Shark Navigator Pet has the claim: Never loses suction embedded into the vacuum.  After all the industry dust up on this claim, I contend the washable cyclones and twice yearly filter cleaning on Shark Navigator [vice the dyson 4-6 times per year cleaning and others] make the difference in the usage of the product claim with Shark Navigator.  The brush roll in size and form on the Shark Navigator is comparable to a decent size power head nozzle.  Better easily IMHO than a DC24 which sells for $399.  As good a brush roll perhaps even better than an ORECK.  Shark Navigator is slightly stiffer.  I don't believe CR has rated and reviewed yet.  It should be interesting to see how well it fares.

Carmine D.

I'm going by the Lavender one that was shown before I posted a picture of the Bissel Easy Vac. Has anyone actually bought this Shark Navigator?? Otherwise we'll be fleeing back and forth with facts, figures and speculations at this rate.

Shark Navigator Never Loses Suction Upright Here's a picture of the latest Shark Navigator Pet

Some additional specs on the Shark Naviator Pet making it comparable to a full size vacuum desoite the 15 pounds:  10 amp motor.  12 inch cleaning swath.  30 foot cord.  Brush roll on off switch.  12 foot hose.

Carmine D.

The big daddy to the Navigator would be the Shark'Euro-Pro Infinity which qualifies as a full-sized upright with a wider cleaning swath.  Yes indeed, the Navigator is a glorified stick vac but certainly packing more oomph than your average Hoover or Eureka stick.  That in itself is not a new idea.  I've already priorly owned a Sunbeam stick with an attachment kit  and also  a Hoover stick vac fitted with a full-size power nozzle.

It is highly doubtful that Shark ever intended the Navigator as a full-size upright and it can safely be viewed as an equivalent to Sebo's Felix, Miele's 168 or 163 or the Emer sticks.  All of these machines, bagged ort not, are basically stick vacs with "big" motors that people are prepared to accept as regular vacuums.  They all also afford a less than conventional manner of attachment use than with a regular canister or upright but could easily get work done where they'd serve best..

Forgetting some of the prices, the advantage of all is that they are small yet may serve well as sole vacuum in small dwelling spaces.  Recalling pricing, most are not at a level that is encouraging for the purpose of buying a secondary vacuum cleaner.  The Navigator's advantage in theory would be efficient and easy to maintain cyclonics and its lesser price.  By way of that it fits current demand.  Lots of people now are looking for decent but less expensive vacuum.  That's why so many folks went running after the Garry vac.  Something good for a little money -- or so they believed.  I think the Navigator has the potential to actually offer that.

Though I have not owned the Navigator, I did own the EP621.  I like it but it's main problem was a pleated filter.  The Navigator could only be better save for my wondering about its sturdiness and Shark's ability to handle customer needs in good fashion.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Aren't you guys lucky? The nearest product we have in the UK at the moment is either the mini Bissell Easy Vac or the Vax LiFe model (based on the Hoover Linx). Consumers in the UK tend not to buy stick vacs because they are low powered and basic. Yet, it often surprises me when a company come along and produce a mains corded option. We had a Hoover Junior stick vac a couple of years ago based on the Hoover Athyss available on the continent. However it was bagged and the bags were very expensive even though there was a permanent bag that came with it. I had two models - a basic red one and then the Junior Plus that came with a shoulder kit,  longer hose kit, main turbo brush floor head and decent enough 1300watt motor . Whilst it was a good stick vac, it didn't half make a noise and it needed to be constantly emptied. Both models barely lasted two years - the red one's handle eventually cracked (it was hollow) and couldn't be replaced whilst the Junior Plus black model's hinge broke and gave way when it was meant to fold up into a hand held.

Electrolux have tried in the UK but not good enough in my opinion. I loved my old Ergorapido but again Electrolux have been mean and stingy in not providing more high powered stick vacs to UK buyers and the latest Ergorapido / Pronto stick isn't available either.

CarmineD wrote:

So if 32 idiots use the Navigator to vacuum leaves, mulch, etc. and do not empty it or never wash the filters it will not lose suction?  It is not full sized and a negative (from owners) is the inferior sized dust cup.  Too much emptying.

CarmineD wrote:

One Hoover fan told us that at least a half dozen Hoovers would be the demise of Dyson.  He also said that CR ratings and Wal Mart pulling Dyson from shelves would be the demise of Dyson.  One Dyson user disagreed with you.  Hoover failed and sold out.  Dyson sales are good to excellent despite CR.  Hoover USA flopped.  CR and the biased Hoover fan hasn't stopped Dyson's success.  Oh, the Hoover fan had to find another brand.

In 8 years Hoover, CR and a relic haven't slowed Dyson.

I would much rather have a Dyson than any Shark/Europro. Despite my feelings about the way the Dyson treats it's retailers, Shark reeks of slime. (Good luck trying to collect a 5 year warranty). That's going to be a thorn in the side of Sharks retailers. But then again I'm sure they are counting on People just throwing out their vacs instead of doing something about them and counting on Retailers to have employees and outlets that don't give a crap and either absorb the loss or just pass it onto the next corporate boondoggle infinitely.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell,

I beg to differ.  CR ratings for the Dyson are NOT bad.  In fact, for the most part they score "very good."   Certainly, the lightweight uprights might have slipped into the "good range" 41-60, but the full size Dysons generally score in the "very good" range of 61 to 80.   Way too much is made of the rankings - which depend a lot on which vacuums are included and excluded. 

Nutshell Hardsell:

You're taking this much to personal.  This is business and product pros and cons not personal.  Talking about getting personal, have you had to get up close and personal with all the rain lately?  Saw a bunch of toyota and lexus vehicles on the news stranded in water in your neck of the woods and had to wonder if the owners deliberately let them to sink.

Carmine D. 

Severus wrote:

Dyson reliability ratings have been very good.  Of course, it's really been just the last 4 years of the 8 and CR may just be catching up with the vacuum problems in their customer surveys. 

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:
Carmine is the one who constantly claims that Dyson rates poorly with Clown Reports.  I have never supported CR rankings.  They are a joke.  Who else would give top billing to a passenger van simply because it had more cup holders thatn the others?  Their ratings of home theater/stereo components is a bigger joke. 

CarmineD wrote:

If not personal how could I call you out?  I expected you to twist on the ropes after being knocked on you ash again.

How did you identify the vehicles when only the roof was visible?  Dyson must have punched you too hard again.

Local sources reported that an old geezer in an Explorer caused the problem.  When rescued he  said that he thought his vehicle would float because it was full of hot air and balloons fly when filled with hot air.  The Lexus and Toyotas went in to rescue the old coot and the water rose suddenly. 

CarmineD wrote:

So you are admitting that you were wrong prior to Severus telling the whole truth.

Nutsell Hardshell:

You've been sniffing that dyson dysolv too much.  Turning your peanut brain to nut dust.  Can't have it both ways on CR HS.  Can't call it out for bad choices and then brag about dyson's reliability ratings from it.  One or the other.  Make up your mind.  BTW, HOOVER gets 6 out of the 10 top upright spots.  Dyson gets zero.  Notta.  After 8 years and as many models dyson can't get one of its products in the top 10.  Breaks your dyson heart don't it.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Like I said before.  CR ratings are a joke.  Hoover got good ratings and still went busted.  Bet ol James is glad CR left him out and did not have negative impact on Dyson sales.

Satisfied Dyson customers have sold more vacs than Clown Reports.

Get over it.  Hoover exists only in brand name. 

Well gang, no matter what you think of the Navigator -- I sold one today.  The only problem with the sale is that there goes another commision -- Costco hasn't hired me yet . . .

Though I came in for trash bags and spaghetti, I went to check out the vacuum aisle as usual and stopped not so much because there was anything new but because someone had finally unboxed one of the Navigators and left it out for display.  There was also a lady standing there looking at it so I took the machine down from the shelf (four feet off the floor) so we both could have a better look at it.  Even though we couldn't plug it in, naturally, I got to running my mouth and showed her how to use the hose, how the machine emptied and where the filters and cyclonic module were.

Regarding that matter, I took special care to inform her that though the Navigator is bagless the filters and the cyclonics module would require washing as needed.  A real surprise for me was that when I removed the container that holds the filter(s) I hadn't realized that not one but three layers of thick foam were in place. She's an apartment dweller and should be fine.  I won't lay this all on expertise -- teh price for the Navigator at my Costco was $160.  It proved quite a tempting choice against the $400 Dyson and the $298 Oreck set.  The only thing cheaper was the Hoover Dura at $134 but it was left out on display completely disheveled.

Venson

Venson wrote:

It seems that they are preparing for a lot of dust getting to the filter.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hiya Hardsell,

That could be but I don't know.  I thought the amount of filters included was generous to say the least.   But after showing them to the woman I was speaking with and after emphasizing the importance of filter cleaning more than once she did not seem to mind.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Congrats Venson.  Just to note the dyson for $400 at COSTCO is the out of date DC14.  If yardsell did his homework he'd see that on every major feature of the lightweight Shark Navigator Pet that it meets or beats the supposed full size TOL dyson ball DC25 for $500.  But he impugns only the Shark Navigator as a narrow lightweight with small dirt bin.  At $160 for the Shark Navigator with a twice yearly filter cleaning schedule versus the 4-6 times for dyson DC25, easy and smart choice, except for HS.  He's conflicted.  Dyson is still on his mind.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

SFB

It should definitely out perform Oreck. 

Oreck has a large bag that it can't fill for months (maybe a year) due to poor performance.  The Navigator has a small cup which it could likely fill in one pass behind an Oreck. 

Thanks for your continued flattery to Dyson.  The most envied brand on the market.  And the one who sucker punched old SFB.

HARDSELL wrote:

Turdsell:

This thread is about Shark Navigator Pet but you still have ORECK stuck in your craw. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Still dazed I see.  Most threads are not about Dyson.  However, you always compare Dyson to all discussed brands.  Again, thanks for the flattery.  Dyson, the most envied vacuum ever.

CR has ratings for both the Shark Navigator NV22 and the Dyson DC24 on their web site.  the Shark has a slightly higher overall rating, but the 2 excel in different areas.  The Dyson had a higher score for emissions, but a lower score for pet hair.  It was surprising to me that the Dyson's score for cleaning with tools was poor.  Handling was better for the Dyson according to CR.  It goes to show that constant suction is only a plus when the constant level is adequate.  User ratings on the CR web site for the Dyson averaged 3.5 out of 5 stars.  the Navigator review is fairly new, so I didn't see any user reviews yet. 

CR has added a bunch of new LG vacuum models to the ratings. 

Thanks Severus.

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

As usual you are wrong.  Shark compares the Navigator Pet to DC25.  Not me fartsell.  Not because of flattery.  Better product.  Better price.   

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Hello SEVERUS:

DC24 has very weak suction both in upright and tool mode.  If I recall right only 112 AW.  Wimpy.  Lousy brush roll too.  More a stick vacuum than lightweight upright.  In comparison, DC25 is a much better equipped product for valid comparison to Shark Navigator Pet all around including price.  No doubt the reason Shark chose it as its product for marketing comparison.  DC24 fails miserably except in price at MSRP $399.  Way over priced and the reason most retail for $299.  Still overpriced. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

What did you recommend for her to buy next year?

Lucky1 wrote:

FWIW Lucky1, buying from COSTCO she can easily return her prurchase USED after a year and even longer for a store credit/refund.  Nice thing about buying from COSTCO. 

Carmine D.

PS: I should add too that there are no questions asked.  No need for receipt.  No box.  They have on-line records to confirm.

Lucky1 wrote:

Hi Lucky1,

I am thoroughly aware of the company's past history and I understand you're feeling on this  but I whole-heartedly feel that with care you may be able to gety by.  To me the idea is worth a shot.  That is why I was very careful to make the person in question aware of the importance of care. 

As to failure due to defect as opposed to lack of care, I have had all sorts of experiences.  As an instance, I still  have a super-suction bagless VN1400P  Black & Decker canister in which the little motor that ran the rachet-style pleated filter cleaner -- purported to make lik easy -- died before even a half dozen uses.  I remember the pleated filter Euro-Pro bagless I owned and what a disappoint ment that was.

Nonetheless let me be honest.  Yes I do own a coupe of Mieles but I bought those when it was easy for me to acquire them.  If I'm looking for a vacuum now, when the budget is substantially challenged and a grand, 800 bucks or even 300 is not in the picture are not in the picture what do I buy?  That's why the Navigator selling.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson

With the 5 yr wrty..and costcos very open return policy  and at $200-160.....its really worth a shot.  As far as quality goes id say they have addressed the non-washable

cyclone issue and have made it user friendly from what ive seen...not some others that are a nightmare to deal with...so perhaps they have also solved the other quality

issues of the past...within a year youll either be happy with your purchase..or hate it. ...return it and try out another kind....thats the honest truth on what id do....

turtle

retardturtle1 wrote:

Agree with you turtle1.  As I think COSTCO stores and customers would too.  I recall COSTCO carried and sold the very first Shark Infinity upright [also washable cyclones] with much sales success from what I saw and heard.  If it were a flop I doubt COSTCO stores would have the latest edition.  COSTCO can easily take back almost 3 of these Sharks at $150 for each one of the almost soon to be discountinued d brand model 14 for $399.  I predict the latter d model will soon be a COSTCO clearance item at $200-$250.  Question is whether COSTCO will advertise the sale and/or just mark them down in the store as a clearance as it did with the DC18 Slim [long gone and forgotten].

Carmine D.

I've had my mind on many things lately and haven't had time to check up on stuff in as timely a fashion as I'd like.  If the following info has already been posted, please forgive my oversight.  In any event, I hadn't been hooked up with Consumer Reports for a while but they've repeatedly sent me "We want you back" emails.  This time they proved it.  They knocked five bucks off my one-year online subscription.

CR rated the Navigator as excellent re pet hair pick up but only good for carpet cleaning.  I don't see that as a major fault one way or the other -- it's good to be good.  It also ranked nicely in regard to emissions, tool air flow and noise levels.

There were a good number of reviews for other vacuums in the $60.00 to $200 price range with nice reviews.  Thus there appears to be some hope for those facing budget crunches this year.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

Very interesting.  Thanks for the info.  I'm impressed with this product so far.  Lightweight.  Price is right.  Performance is on par with the higher priced bagless.  Easy to clean/maintain 21 cyclones.  6 year warranty.  CR is high on it.  All the right stuff for a value vacuum.

Carmine D.

At least 2 major retailers are discounting the Shark navigator bagless upright this week.  Bed Bath and Beyond which now boasts that it carries a full assortment of Shark cleaning products, incluidng the Steam Mop, which garnered a decent rating friom Consumer Reports with an overall "Good", is selling the Lightweight bagless upright with Infinity technology for $179 before a 20 percent discount for a sale price of $ 143 before applicable taxes.  Frys Electronics is selling for $139.  Just to repeat salient selling points: Washable cyclones for constant suction [doesn't require high power compressor blow outs for $30-$50 a pop], pet power tool, 2 crevice tools including an extra long one for tight/deep spaces.  If I recall correctly either a 5 or 6 year warranty.

Carmine D.

Howdy,

For those of you that shop Costco, I just received this month's coupon book in the mail and a $30-off coupon is being offered for the Shark Navigator bagless upright.  It's good from August 19th to September 19th.

If you you've been seriously kicking around the idea of getting the Navigator, this coupon may help cinch the deal.  It sells at my eastcoast Costco for 160 bucks so the $30 off may make you stop and think wherever its sold.  (I am assuming the Costco price is the same across the country.)

The price break is great and the 5-year warranty still stands.

(No I have no affiliation with Costco or its subsidiaries.  They only get half my money and still don't even know my name.)

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

Thanks Venson.  I saw this ad in my mailer.  Interestingly, Shark Navigator is no longer on the COSTCO web site.  I suspect this is a pre-closeout sale for the item at COSTCO. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

You're right, 'tis true. (But the DC14 reamins.)  :o)

Venson

Venson wrote:

Venson;

Evidence to me at least that despite the $299 price, the dyson DC14 models are still not selling.

Carmine D.

The Shark Navigator is commonly being sold now for $139 at most big box retailers.  Its biggest plus IMO is the long warranty.  However, I would, despite the only 2 year warranty, recommend the HOOVER T series bagless WT Rewind for the same price over the Navigator.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine,

My local Costco has dropped it to $130.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Thanks Venson.  I see BEST BUY stores advertising and selling the T-4 HOOVER WT rewind for $139.  A $20 savings from regular retail. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I forget which major big box chain it is that is now offering Shark's idea of an also new lightweight  "transformer" vac, introduced several months ago, at $37 bucks and calling it a rebate. Whoa!  Some of my latest exploits are now garnering me insights regarding spending that are quite interesting.  The salt of the Earth here and the backbone of the country, ordinary working class people of all sizes shapes and colors, are not overly interested in shooting the whole wad when it comes to vacuums.  The big runs seems to be electronics, from microwave ovens to TVs.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

I agree.  Household electronics have been the discretionary sspending savior of the big box retail stores.  In part the reason that new vacuums, floorcare machines and their associated parts are being scaled down in inventory and shelf space among the big box stores.  Not a bit too soon either, right in time for the Christmas Holiday Season sales.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

SEARS is advertising and selling the Shark Navigator for $159 on Thanksgiving Day and Friday after.

Carmine D.

Shark cotinues it TV ad campaign against  dyson DC25 ball at half the price.  latest product is the Navigator Liftaway.  See link and video.

http://www.sharkclean.com/navigatorliftaway/ppc.shtml?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=shark%20navigator%20lift%20off&utm_campaign=Shark+Navigator+Brand

$200 gets the combo upright and canister with free Steam Mop and 10 year warranty.  Highest in the industry for bagless.  TV ads have been airing during the holidays.  Mark Rosen is CEO now.  Amy Motto pitch person.  Testimonials from customers like pet shop owners and Bed and Breakfast owners.  60 day in home trial with no obligation returns. 

Claims completely sealed HEPA with British Allergy Foundation seal of approval.  Captures 99.99 percent of allergens.  With swivel and glide manueverabilty.  Turbo tool 24 inch crevice tool.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

Happy New Year to you too. I kind of like the "tidier" look of this new model as well as the ten-ear warranty it's sporting.  Still won't mind it if the price comes down a just a tad.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

This deal is directly through Shark.  The Navigator Liftaway vacuum alone is selling for less at most retailers but comes without the Steam Mop and with only a 5 year warranty.  Interestingly the older Shark Navigator upright rates a 90 percent on-line review rating of 4 stars or more at of 5.  The newer Liftaway copies the BISSELL with the portable canister that seperates and offers the sealed HEPA with  BAF seal and glide and twist maneuverability in upright mode. 

Carmine D.