Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Hello dyson DIB:

I heard a rumor today and figure the only way to confirm it is to run it by you.  The grapevine is saying dyson is going bankrupt soon?  Any truth to it?

Carmine D. 

Oh Carmine, what are you trying to start with a thread like this?  LOL

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:

Hello Vacuumfreeeke:

If it's true, and I was hoping to learn more by posting here, sadly another company and its employees have fallen victim on hard times, for whatever reasons and whoever's blame.

Carmine D.

The rumor of Dyson going bankrupt has persisted for years. They are still selling Dysons, for now. The problem is the longevity of the Dysons vs. their cost. For every person who is still waxing eloquent over the performance of their Dyson after 5 years, their are at least three who are outraged that a 500.00 bagless vacuum did not last long enough to pay for itself with savings on dustbags. Dyson is losing ground, but they are not done quite yet.

A local vac shop was a Dyson dealer/service center who was cancelled for 'selling too many parts' This guy has three local vac shops and three different internet sites. He was not wholesaling to anyone. Most of his Dyson parts sold at ABOVE msrp and were snatched up by buyers happy to pay.  So what was the problem? Dyson wanted new machines to be sold instead of the customer's old one being repaired and continuing to function.

What Dyson has done is drive sales of Mieles and Sebos through the roof!  The customer is told the cost of the repair and the wait, and is shown a durable, QUIET, powerful true HEPA vacuum, and another Dyson bites the dust and another customer converted to a different brand. The latest chapter in the saga is Dyson USA called the vac shop owner and bought back ta huge quantity of their own parts so they could resell them.

If you look at the history of the Fantom, massive initial sales, more model intoductions, loss of warranty centers, lack of available parts, bankruptcy, all but the last item on the list has repeated itself with Dyson.  The question is not if, but when will Dyson finally go belly up.

Trebor wrote:
Or…  Other UK Dyson Dealers complained to Dyson Corp, so the resulting consequences were Dyson Corp had no choice than to shut down this Dyson Dealer on Dyson Dealer cannibalism.  And now this dealer is bad-mouthing Dyson. - What a surprise!  I’m sure Carmine, mole and Venson/Peter Pan would consider this Dyson-poacher a consummate professional, although he’s more ambitious and smarter than them, but certainly not smarter than Dyson Corp and the legitimate Dyson Dealers.

DIB

DIB:

None so blind as they who will not see.

Carmine D.

First of all, DIB, it was Dyson US,

Second, how is keeping Dysons alive and fucntioning poaching? He was perfectly happy making 100K/year fixing out of warranty Dysons

Third, you missed the point, Dyson US bought back 25K of parts at wholesale because THEY NEEDED THEM!

The whole Dyson point is moot now anyway. The bag technology has improved so much that dust leakage/loss of suction issue is dead. Dysons are clunky, heavy, hard to maneuver, nearly useless attachments. It was a novel idea put on the market by an engineer with tunnel vision.

Have you never seen a vac shop with Dyson trade-ins and abandoned repairs piled to the ceiling? I have, plenty of them.  Everybody loves their Dyson until it throws a clutch, and people find out it is not under warranty. Same with the flimsy hose when it rips. Then they turn on that wonderful vacuum like a 49.00 Walmart Bissell baglss when the filter clogs. 

Sorry, but it is what is. Fantom frantically put out new models right up until the fat lady sang.

Trebor wrote:

GM-Saturn was advertising on TV right up until the day Penske said it would renege on the buyout and GM said it would have to end the brand and production.

WRT James and dyson, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.  Forbes magazine's wealth editor says the hardest to fall are the billionaires who aren't anymore.  They never get over it.

Carmine D.

Trebor:

HOOVER USA tried the same stunt: Kill old HOOVER's in order to sell new ones.  The scheme failed miserably.  Indies, like me at the time, refurbed and rebuilt the old HOOVER's and guaranteed just like new, and sold them to the vacuum buying consumers over the new ones for considerably less than the new ones.  It spawned a whole industry of HOOVER rebuilts.  If I couldn't get genuine HOOVER parts, I used replacement ones which were in sufficient supply, just as good, and less pricey than HOOVER.  HOOVER got smart and scrubbed the terrible idea.  Came back a' courtin to get me on board again as a HOOVER new sales and service dealer.

Dyson doesn't know the US vacuum history and industry.  Hence, it is prone to repeat the same failed practices of the past.

Carmine D.

Trebor wrote:
Trebor,

I’ll go after the lowest hanging favorite fruit…  talking about a backyard inventor that’s told “No” by the big-named companies and genius-suits and then making a small corporation rich…

Fact...
Iona (from what I’ve learned, the little info that’s available) was NOTHING until they hooked up with James Dyson and his teams technologies and brains.  They, not Iona were the (overall) brains behind the Fantom success and making history which are now industry standards worldwide.

By comparison...
Carmine has never posted his innovation numbers here.  That being his - triangulating and pointing out where to drill a hole for the toggle switch on the Hoover Constellation.

Mole’s invented nothing.

Venson’s worthless.

Retardturtle, is looking to score points and make friends with vacuum dealers and then kick-back and watch the money roll in.  Youth.

Fact…
Fantom U.S. sales (Dyson technologies and engineering):  1st year: $50m, 2nd year: $100m, 3rd year: $150m.

Pointing out Fantom closing is a sales technique only.  A low ball-estimation of Dyson or Dyson-inspired competing vacuums sold - 100m globally.

DIB

P.S.  TTI and Bissell are making lots of money off Dyson’s dual cyclone discoveries.  They are junk quality, but they (expired Dyson patents and discoveries) are moneymakers and continue to live well past the Fantom-is-Dyson attempted parallel.

Bless you DIB. I know you can't help yourself.

Venson as Venson

Dyson DIB:

More of the usual lunacy and idiosy.  When you can't debate the facts and opinions you resort to impugning personalities and professionalism.  Never works.  Better crying like a baby as Sir James does.  At least it gets sympathy from others who can't stand to see grown men cry! 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Here they are again for you dyson DIB.  Self-employed for 42 years in the vacuum cleaner sales and service business as an independent store owner and operator in the same location.  1949-1992  I sold the business to another vacuum cleaner independent and professional who is still in the same location.

15 years as a self-employed vacuum industry consultant.  1992 to 2006.  Now retired.  In the last 3 years I turned down 3 offers of employment in the industry.

Tell me dyson DIB, have you ever run a business and been self-employed?  Or do you slave to bosses?

Carmine D.

 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dyson DIB:

Once again the facts seem always to escape you.  2 successful dyson lawsuits helped.  Both netted Sir James over $8 MILLION US.  With the royalties [$2 M] from the first lawsuit, Sir James built the plant in Malmesbury.  With the proceeds from the second [$6.4 M] Sir James moved production to Malaysia.  Pocketed the rest of the mula. 

Mr. d went from $2 BILLION in 2006 to $1.6 BILLION in 2007 and then to $1.2 BILLION in 2008.  What are your predictions for Mr. d in 2009?  Higher/lower? 

Carmine D.

Fantom benefited from the licensing of Dyson technology, but so did Dyson, with millions in royalties collected. Why did he do this? HE NEEDED THE MONEY!

I know James was a backyard inventor who created a company and a product with his name. Just because it is different doesn't automatically make it better, and just because it was better then doesn't make it better now because the competition continues to improve. A Model T and a Crown Victoria are both Ford cars, and have a lot of similarities, that does not mean they have the same performance levels and features.

The disposable bag technology has improved in three distinct ways 1) better filtration 2) much better performance as the bag fills, and 3) increased usable bag capacity. The Mieles of today are quieter and more powerful than their predecesors, many of which are still running well and cleaning after 20 years. How many Dysons, other than those in collections and museums, are still working after that long? The value for the money just isn't there with Dyson, as evidenced by the many of them in repair shops all over the US and Great Britain.

Trebor wrote:

Trebor wrote:

Trebor:

Sir James is one of the luckiest business men in the industry that I know.  Success with 2 lawsuits provided him the "seed" money to grow his brand/products that their sales never did.  First, the royalties on another brand's sales allowed him to build the plant in Malmesbury.  By doing so, dyson expanded vacuum production to 30,000 units a month in the UK.  Then, the HOOVER money to move production to Malaysia and go global.  The plant in the UK was too small for global production.  He should have known that when he built it.  As the business gurus will tell you, making money is the easy part, especially in Sir James' case.  Sustaining it year over year is the hard part.

I wish him luck.  He going to need it.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine - an objective series of points there that I agree with 100%. Perhaps to add that Dyson was a touch naive in presuming that he'd be able to get planning permission to extend the UK production if needed. The irony being that if he'd simply set up production overseas from day 1, he'd have avoided being labelled as a some type of national traitor, by an often cynical British media. Still, you could argue that the desire to claw back some respect with innovative new products, help drives him further than it otherwise might have. Such is business life.

Trebor wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

You’re in no position to lecture or condemn or comment of real-men and real-leaders and real-doers.  Is it a big risk owning a small mom and pop that most consumers would rather drive past and onto a non-pressure or non-bias retailer?  You twist and turn and I love it!  Anyone taking your business advice is certainly doomed or at least doomed to an uneventful life and low-pay.

Forty-two years in the business and nothing.  Greater society is waiting for great men and women to step forward....  Sorry for all your bad luck or was it the poor choice and fear of the unknown? - That is, stepping outside the lavishly comfortable and awe inspiring establishment you’ve painstaking whittled out?

In the big picture, 42 years of hunkering down is most unimpressive.


DIB

Dyson DIB:

Without answering my question, I got the answer.  The only thing you can run is your mouth.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:


Oh! You've forgotten to state what you've done with the last 43 years of your life?

Venson

M00seUK wrote:

Hello M00seUK:

The Malmesbury plant, any UK location for that matter, provided considerably less costs for freight and distribution of dyson product to the UK markets, while it was still a home grown/sold brand. 

Carmine D.

Having been witness to the dismantling of Electrolux Corp USA, I can testify that outsourcing production never produces the savings in real life that it does on paper. First there is the language barrier, and almost certainly a time differential. Quality control issues become much more complicated to manage. But, the laid off workers' wages pay and benefits then are used to fund enormous unearned and undesrved bonuses to executives for lowering product quality and putting hard working people out of work. They don't even deal with the irate customers, because the customer call center is outsourced as well!  We have reached the place where we reward criminal behavior and punish the honest hard-working stiff.  If James had said "Look, I need to expand, or I am going to have to outsource, he would have won his expansion rights. But it was probably all smoke and mirrors anyway. He learned well from the US corporations he dealt with, and their attorneys. I am sure the bankruptcy is being precisely orchestrated for maximum profit for Sir James, no matter how profuse his crocodile tears.

To be fair to James Dyson (don't faint DIB) Those two lawsuits were justified. The first was filed against Amway because they had paid 25K front money to James to study the plans, decided they were not interested in manufacturing,  andthen introduced their own version, confident their pockets were deeper and they would bankrupt James. The second was filed against Hoover UK for their 'Triple Vortex' cyclonic. They claimed they were using an old concept for separating sand from oil (Right. Anyone want to buy a bridge?)

Despite a stipulation from the judge barring Hoover UK from seeking the removal of a temporary injunction delaying their entry into bagless cyclonic vaccums, Hoover did so anyway.  The subterfuge shown by these two corpoate behemoths was obvious and just verdicts were rendered, one in the US against Amway, and one in the UK against Hoover. Unfortunately, James appears to have developed a taste for suing as a means of profit.  The 90 pound weakling bulks up at the gym and turns into the town bully, alas. His cause was just, but justice can be corrupted.

Trebor wrote:
Trebor,

It’s nice to see you're excepting demonstrable facts...  Dyson v. Amway, Dyson v. Hoover UK.  To your credit, the anti-Dyson types here would never admit or speak what you did/as you did.

Now the Dyson competitor comes out and demonstrable facts are nonexistent...  Can you demonstrate a single suit brought by Dyson demonstrating the Carmine foible?  That is, Dyson is lawsuit happy and a bully?

Recently Sir James sued Samsung over patent infringement and won.  How exactly did this $1-$1.5B Dyson bully the $9-$12b Samsung?

Carmine spouts and claims Dyson is lawsuit happy (never offering a bit of proof), then Venson got in line behind the Carmine foible, then Retardturtle got in line behind Venson and behind the Carmine foible. - And now you.  1 2 cha cha cha, 3 4 cha cha cha...  Come on everybody!... and do the the Carmine foible. 


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
So like I said DIB, please inform us of your own great accomplishments over the last 42 years. Are you as rich as JD (manner of monetary acquisition unquestioned) and are you working on your second or third Time Magazine cover?

As you'd have it, no one knows a thing except you and Jimmy D. Thus I sit here eagerly waiting to be impressed by your tales of your own great and fabulous feats in life, preferably not about money making and, please, no more boasting and/or proselytizing in making Jesus out of Lord Jimmy. We "worthless" nonetheless want word of the innovations you yourself have brought about to make our world all the more wonderful. Maybe such edification will save all us lowly ones.

As for the dance, so far you've proven that there's not much worth in your vacuum and/or cleaning knowledge. You'll never convince me that you're another Arthur Murray.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Venson,  you are beginning to act like Carmine.  What does DIB's accomplishments have to do with lawsuits?

Carmine shuffles the subject regularly to fight off the wolves.

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi Hardsell,

Quoting DIB comments from this same thread, here's why . . .

"By comparison...
Carmine has never posted his innovation numbers here. That being his - triangulating and pointing out where to drill a hole for the toggle switch on the Hoover Constellation.

Mole’s invented nothing.

Venson’s worthless.

Retardturtle, is looking to score points and make friends with vacuum dealers and then kick-back and watch the money roll in. Youth."


It being in past posts DIB has also called me a liar as to whether Severus and I were joined at the hip and, last but not least, labeled me worthless, I'd like an accounting of all he sees himself as. This is not my usual habit but one can tire of name calling and braying, even though I'm all for it if there's a good excuse. I so far have seen none here and just want a reality check to be sure I haven't missed out on something. That's why I'm asking.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Venson,

Living in reality is not your forte.

I will say this...  Ideas that have come from those close to me have generated over $3b EASILY.  I do not take lessons from hunkering down store keepers or old men playing children’s characters.  Deceivers, bad-mouther's and the jealous like you two are in the way of real men who get things done.


DIB

P.S.  If you want...  Have Mike W. write me privately and he and I can discuss your disgust. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

Quoting Shakespeare, "You always ends with a jade's trick. I know you of old."

"Ideas that have come from those close to me have generated over $3b EASILY."

Give me a break already! I didn't ask what your friends do, did or have done. Thus, your greatest talent yet appears to be name calling and as usual you and your paranoid perceptions have again proven the point for me. By the way, I don't have to run to Mike W. or anyone to be defended. I can manage on my own well enough.

Venson

Trebor wrote:

Trebor:

Let's give credit where it is due:  Dyson's New York City lawyers with 3 names and 3 piece suits.  The very same that prevailed against the poor young engineering student Kenneth J in its lawsuit over the student's ball facilitator.  The student's patent predated dyson's DC15 ball model by 9 years.  Lost on a technicality.  Kenneth J. got street justice instead of court justice.

The dyson lawsuits and money awards as well as their timing provided Sir James the seed money to accomplish what sales of dyson vacuums never could.  That's luck.  He'll need more of it.  Why?  I just received and email saying Capmark Financial Group, one of the nation's largest commercial-real-estate lenders, plans to file for bankruptcy as soon as this weekend, according to a person familiar with the matter.  How does that relate?  The housing and construction industry has a direct impact on new vacuum sales.  Less of the former results in less of the latter.  Maybe dyson should re-think its dealers' sales/service tactics?

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Dyson DIB:

Are you admitting finally that you are related to Sir James and he was kind enough to give you a job?

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

You HARDSELL are making an awfully cute pay potty dance partner with DIB.  Did he promise you that his Uncle James would give you a job too?

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

You did not use those quotes on the post that I commented on.  Please remain you usual self and do not resort to Carmine's ways.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Again, as usual you always miss the obvious.  Repetition is not because of me, but it's because of you!  We all know it takes you a few times and sometimes awhile for you to comprehend!  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
You may have missed something Carmine.  Read again and try to keep quiet and try to  keep up.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Dustmite (aka DIB) - so what tax increase are you responsible for?

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

See, there is your proof again.  You just never get it.  You miss the point again and again, just like you do with your vacuum choices.    You should stop your pay potty dancing with your friend here dyson DIB and try, as hard as it is for you [no pun intended HS] to stay up on the posts and subjects of the thread.  In this way, when you read here that dyson announces its plans to downsize/retrench, you won't post an ID 10 T question. 

Carmine D.

I searched for Dyson lawsuits online.

I did find the one against Hoover UK, and the Amway one. I also found one against Miele where Dyson was taking them to task for claims that their vacuums did not lose suction.  In reviewing the book, "Against the Odds" there were a number of lawsuits by most major European vac mfrs, against Dyson simply to force Dyson to expend resources.  It's a common tactic in the corporate world, especially against promising startups , or 'upstarts' and the entrenched market giants would call them. Carmine you gave one example of patent lawsuit against an individual inventor. Can you give others? I think it petty of James Dyson to crush a student with a legitimate claim to originality. He did not extend the kind of treatment he thought was his due to his courtroom rival. I don't  think it would have taken a lot of pounds to satisfy the young man in question. Not every threat of a lawsuit actually is filed. I wonder what James would have done if his challenge of Miele's S7 adverts had not gone the way he wanted?

James Dyson once chided an interviewer for commenting on his millions with "vulgar, vulgar, vulgar...the one benefit of making a lot of money is that you can pour it back into making better products" He also said things worked best when management, production, and design all worked together in the same location, but that was obviously before he moved production to Malaysia.


I will take the liberty here to digress a moment and say a few words in Carmine's behalf, as he would never defend himself thus:  DIB, and whoever else is listening, it's not all about money. When we 'shuffle off this mortal coil', to quote the immortal bard, all our money and self-importance count for naught. The kind of service one has rendered to God, one's spouse, family, church, peers, colleagues and customers are the measure by which we are rightly judged by the only ONE who has the right to judge.  We all have feet of clay, including your hero James Dyson. The question is what do any of us do about it?  Pride goeth before a fall, but he who humbles himself shall be exhalted.


Peace,

Trebor

Just the facts, folks...just the facts.

If Dyson is going bust, it's interesting that the bust follows introductions of two rather unique products, its Airblade hand dryer (which does what it claims to do), and the new "bladeless fan"  (which is actually not fully true as there is a bladed turbine in the base sending air to the bladeless venturi jet performing the work as the room's air mover).

Granted home sales and related stuff are way down. 
In Portland OR home builders have been in slow mode for some time, with one going under and another beginning to make a profit again after a few years of losses.

Vacomatic:

As with all companies that go under, the scheme is to keep it from the workers and buyers as long as possible.  Business as usual is the management mantra.  GM's saturn is an excellent example.  Advertising on TV the same day that GM announced Penske backed out of the deal and the brand would be scrubbed. 

I would argue in the reverse that a company that unloads all its latest at one time is desperate.  Most do so gradually to give time to buying public for reaction to the products.

Just the facts.

Carmine D.

Hi Trebor:

I was particularly struck by Kenneth J who came on one of the previous vacuum Forums and stated his case as a gentleman and inventor.  No one from dyson, despite the insiders on the Forum, rebutted him. 

You have the value system exactly right: God religion and relationaship with both, friends and family and the people we influence in our lifes, then our work whatever it might be.  As you said, and I have too on many occasions here when the noveau riche brag of the millions and billions their heroes made, it's never about the money.

No one has the right to judge others "morally" as you said.  That is reserved for the one who was born and died without sin.  But I would wager $ that when Mr. d stands before his maker for his accounting he will be questioned about Kenneth J.  And he won't have his hot shot NYC lawyers in 3 piece suits with 3 names to sway.

Carmine D.

Re: The effect of the housing market on vac sales. The unit sales of full size vacuums have exceed those of consumer automobiles and trucks for probably 20 years if not longer. People in all manner of dwellings, even apartments, need to vacuum. One might invest in better, or additional equipment as a result of a move, major remodel, or room addition, but there is no way to be sure how many of those sales would have occurred anyway. The one segment of the market that is definitely hit by the housing slump is central vacuums. Their growth in market share has certainly slowed, but they still are gaining ground. There is a market where the multi-cyclonic technology could flourish, for sure. Surprising that Sir James has no such product offerings, and none in the pipeline to which anyone has alluded.

Severus wrote:
Venson,
An old man playing the children's character Severus Snape?  Aren't you better off cruising another forum that best suits your needs?  Something with broadband video chat capabilities perhaps? At least I hope this forum is not catering to the freaky.  This site can easily go down in flames like 99% of vacuum forum sites.  Severus Snape should of been shut down some time ago.  I bring much value here (Google hits - no one here can touch my numbers).  I'm not ready to leave, but will.


DIB

UPDATE:

Here just one example:  Today’s logins - names and time stamps.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Your way off on that issue as usual DIB. So far off that you're still continue make own yourself ridiculous to the point of laughable. On the basis of that you expect people to take you seriously?

You're value has yet to be proven but you're a lucky so and so as it being, per your prior claim of association with those that who make billions, you've at least got friends with money. Thank God, you'll never miss lunch and there's a lot to be said for that these days.

As for my being "old" you're probably spot on, as regards time, but let me tell you it's nice to get old. There's lot's of folks who want to but won't. Better to be old with half a mind than young with none.

Like they say in France, "One monkey don't stop the show." This forum is a worthy and will endure with or without you.

Venson

Venson wrote:
Venson,

I should mention, I've been watching you play Severus Snape here since you signed up this alter-ego role-play character in response to me joining the forum.  With this Abbys forum, I took a different approach after the jak-off's immediately attacked me and my pro-Dyson posts on the first forum.  I must say, I was not prepared. - Lesson learned.  I do more watching now and a lot less assuming (that people are generally good natured and honest).  If you had only resisted the temptation and waited 1 day to join up as Severus I would not have taken notice.  Check out your Severus join date, it came only as a response and only an hour or so after I signed up as DysonInventsBig.  You’re an idiot! - and an idiot with many friends who play along (here)!


DIB

Hello dyson DIB:

Did your uncle James tell you to depart here before you,

him and the company announce 2008 results and 2009 prospects? 

If so, and probably is, I'm not surprised.  Can't take the heat,

stay out of the vacuum biz.  Maybe bladeless fans will work?

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
I'm the idiot? You have already been informed by the persons managing this site that your allegations are totally untrue.

I suggest that you run, not walk, to get the help you're obviously in need of OR have a couple of gulps of anything bearing a high alcohol content. Please note that I do not in any way think that that will make you appreciate my points of view but it might calm you down a little so that you might rethink your approach. When I can't get people to share my point of view I don't see it as necessary to call them "jak-offs" just because I feel I have to be right. That's kind of nasty you know.

That said, I'll leave you to winning friends for Dyson in your own, special manic way.

Venson

You were to stay on topic.  This thread  will be locked for a while, so do not take this same stuff to another thread.

Mike W.