Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

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CarmineD wrote:
Actually Carmine I don't recall mentioning anything about a real comparison. All I said was that in reflection to what Dyson's hand held offers the B&D is lower powered. I'd still consider it over the Dyson in terms of it's general design. Infact in terms of Dyson's pricing consumers in the last three years have bought nothing else but the Dyson hand held certainly here in the UK and it has nothing to do with brand preference; many UK buyers felt let down when Dyson shifted manufacture to Asia leaving the UK out in the cold. Sadly even though it may well be expensive; buyers will get what they think is the best, regardless of the price.

Hello Vacmanuk:

Which? made the comparison of these the two brands/models: B&D Flexi handheld and dyson DC31.  James Dyson made the comparison of the B&D pivot handheld and DC31.  Both comparisons have their limitations.  Something Consumer Reports appreciates when comparing handhelds. 

WRT consumers buying what they believe is the best regardless of the price...........I concur..... UNLESS the price is way too high for the category of products.  Then they think twice, three and four times before purchasing.  Dyson's DC31 for $220-$270 falls into that category, IMHO.  You may very well be right with consumers and a DC16 at $150-$200.  Some, not many, consumers would buy at that price IF they believed a DC16 is really better.  It's fair and correct to say that dyson launched the DC31 in large part as an improvement of its DC16.  Sadly, customers burned by the purchase of a DC16, like you, would be the likely consumers to buy and now are hard pressed to buy a new improved version [as promised by dyson] for almost $100 more.  Even if they had money to burn, and I can't imagine many handheld consumers fall into that category.   Too many other handhelds, like B&D, on the market, just as good or better, at less money.  And just as importantly, other vacuum options too at $220-$270.  Consumers will most probably say rather than limiting my options with a $250 handheld, buy a full size vacuum that has tools to accomodate the cleaning needs of a handheld. 

Dyson may very well be counting on the new brushless motor to warrant the exorbitant price of its DC31 and the increase in price over a Dc16.  I wouldn't and don't.  Customers are not impressed with hyped technologies that don't have a direct effect on product performance when the price is considerably higher than the competition.  A cleaner exhaust on a handheld is not a riveting improvement for the environment and users.  Not when it runs for 5-10 minutes at a time and is a handheld vacuum.

Carmine D. 

Carmine
Some good thoughts here; however neither of us are in a position to truly judge what the world are buying and certainly when I worked for Which? (Many years ago and found them to be flawed because companies like Hoover and Vax went to the bother of blackmail money to promote their products), there tended to be a balance between what is in the market already (existing) and newer products claiming to do a task better.

I hear what you are saying about how Dyson has a cheek to charge more money for what is effectively a slight improvement but it's not as if it's an industry where marketing and design go hand in hand ALONE; each time a car manufacturer announces a facelift it raises the prices accordingly and owners of the older model are forced to think if they really should go to the bother of replacing their existing model with a new one. I can think of a perfect example at the moment such as Volvo's new C30...(I have a C70!)

If what you are saying is entirely correct then most buyers then would be buying the best Miele vacuum money can buy; yet the best selling model in many European countries is their S5 Cat and Dog model as it comes with different floorheads against the high flying Revolution model and as you know that comes with an electric power head. The same could be applied to many other brands where the most expensive isn't the best. However in terms of actual brands this thought can be easily reversed; high end products in the Electrolux range (UK where we have Eureka models, Boss and anything else under the U.S Umbrella marketed purely as an Electrolux) tend to be better made than the cheap end of the market and buyers don't always buy on the best suction but models that have a generally overall and universal appeal based on many merits such as weight, noise, ease of emptying and so on.

I don't however see your point when comparing a full size vacuum cleaner with a hand held, regardless of the price. What will happen when the user may need to clean something high up? Balance the upright/cylinder on a chair? Cordless hand helds will never replace main size vacuums so it is a bit unfair to suggest so and in some ways you seem to miss the fact that cordless hand helds have slightly different cleaning tasks compared to full size vacuums. At least try and compare like with like to emphasize your argument.

At the end of the day with the variety of products on offer, Dyson has every right to charge whatever price the company feels but the company are not alone in doing this.

"...Customers are not impressed with hyped technologies that don't have a direct effect on product performance when the price is considerably higher than the competition.."

That same statement could well be applied to the Kirby vacuums that are £1000 in the UK and remain the highest and most expensive vacuum we can buy domestically. However in my mind it is not the best for smaller countries and at its weight and numerous attachments that most UK buyers seldom use, the Kirby cleaning system is a bit of a waste of money unless you're literally sucked in by all the marketing that goes with it.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello Vacmanuk:

Let's agree to disagree in part on some of the issues.  On the above statement, let me further clarify.   Every home needs [must have] a vacuum.  Every home does not need [must have] a handheld.  Handhelds are a convenience cleaning appliance that complements the repertoire of cleaning products already in a home.  By convenience you should read quick and easy to use in a hurry to do "ad hoc" clean ups rather than pulling out the big vacuum.  The primary benefit of handhelds are a time and effort saver around the home. 

The benefits [conveniences] have to gat weighed against the costs.  How much are typical average consumers willing to pay for the convenience of not pulling out the big home vacuum?  $100, $150, maybe?  $220-$270, whoa!  Let's rethink this convenience cost.  I have a perfectly good big vacuum with tools.  I'll pull out the big vacuum and forego the convenience of a handheld if it costs me $250.   Or better still, my big vacuum has some age on it, perhaps for the price of a DC31, $220-$270, I'll upgrade to a new big size vacuum rather than a handheld.  Keep and use the old one as a spare, or in the garage.  Rather than buy a convenient handheld for the garage and car cleaning.  Hope that assists with clarifying my thinking on the pricing of handhelds.

Carmine D.

I wonder how much premium prices were added to vacuum cleaners once they could be developed to take bags? Spare a thought there!

vacmanuk wrote:

In the 50's, Vacmanuk, when paper bags were intro'ed they were usually an addition to an already cloth bag vacuum.  The premium was the cost of the bags, not the product using them.  To mention several brands of vacuums that were cloth and upgraded with paper bag inserts [fit inside the cloth]:  GE swivel top canns, Lux XXX tanks, EUREKA canns, and Compact canns.  Uprights like HOOVER were still offered in both venues [cloth and paper] in the early 50's and for a short time HOOVER offered 2 upright models with the reusable paper bags.  Not until the mid to late 50's with the HOOVER upright Convertibles and Lux 60/Auto E, were cloth bags no longer available as OEM and paper was the standard.  The prices for the products with only paper bags were comparable with the prices for vacuum products equipped with the cloth bags.  No price premium for paper except for the cost of bags.  The benefit of the paper bags was their convenience over the cloths.  The cost for the paper bag products was the additional time, effort and cost to buy the bags.

Carmine D.

PS:  As a comparison, vacuums that were already using a paper bags vice cloths in the 50's, like the Lewyt canns, EUREKA and SINGER uprights, and the HOOVER Constellations [model 81] sold for the same prices if not less than the brands/models with cloth bags and cloth-paper bags.  Essentially no premium prices for products with paper bags over the cloths. 

I opine then that the next question you may have is what technology in the vacuum industry rated premium prices over the conventional selling vacuums.  I'll leave that discussion for another time. 

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello Vacmanuk:

As a door to door seller, with financing available from KIRBY thru GE Credit, comparing an all metal KIRBY made in the USA with a plastic foreign made big box retail selling vacuum has limited similarities [at least in the USA].   Why?  Selling venues are very different.  KIRBY has authorized KIRBY dealers who repair.  Not independents authorized by KIRBY, tho many indies work on and sell KIRBY parts.  Keep in the mind the KIRBY reconditioning contract too.  Basically restores [reconditions] the original KIRBY to like new condition for a fixed fee set at the time of purchase.  AN insurance policy if you will that regardless of what fate befalls your KIRBY, you can have it redone to original specs and condition for a fixed fee.  Talk to loyal KIRBY customers and inevitably this is a feature they have used and liked.

Carmine D.

MM interesting. In the UK if you buy from any of the mass brands you'd get a year's guarantee by default and one more if you pay by card. Then if it goes wrong you'd be charged by the company concerned OR if like Sebo or Dyson you're covered for 5 years plus. Miele however do things differently; only a select number of their vacuums are guaranteed for more than a year and you need to pay extra to have 10 years guarantee cover.

The rebuild service on KIRBY's is separate and distinct from the warranty which also comes with KIRBY.  It's a KIRBY only feature that has been used for all the years I know the vacuum industry.

Carmine D. 

Hi,

The rechargeable B&D Flex crossed my mind today and I found a few user reviews at Amazon.com. Link follows:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-FHV1200-Cordless-Ultra-Compact/product-reviews/B002FQJW4W/ref=dp_db_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Best,

Venson