Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Thought the Dyson discussion board would be interested in reading a small article about the Tacony Museum. Also Carmine's old friend.....

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/hit-the-road-jack/hit-the-road-jack/2009/08/new-museum-opens-at-st-james-on-historic-route-66/

Lucky1:

Thanks for posting.  Tom will do well in this endeavor.  And if he ever gets a question he can't answer, I will be happy to assist him.  Not just for our friendship but the good of the industry.

Carmine D.

Thanks Lucky1. I'm glad to learn the new museum's good to go.

Vensom

Carmine:

You may be a barely living legend, however you can rest in peace knowing that there are no questions Tom can't answer and that he appreciates the offer for assistance. 

I'm going to see Tom in a few weeks at a gathering of vacuum cleaner collectors taking place at the Museum, and I will be sure to pass on your good wishes to him.

Sincerely,
MH

P.S. I just noticed that the Oreck came in at 27th place in CR's current ratings of uprights.  I guess they've finally figured Oreck out!

Hello MH:

Well just in case.......I'm an email away.

Give Tom my best wishes. 

Many here in response to the credibility of Consumer Reports and vacuums have criticized that on different occasions the same/similar model will rise/fall in ranks and ratings.  To wit, I say CR is a guide not the gospel.  Experts in the field are the best source of vacuum information.  I've said this many times before, this is an opportunity to say again.  In the final analysis how often and how well vacuum users operate their vacuums are the key to keeping a healthy and clean home.  Not what CR says about the vacuums.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Consumer Reports is what it is.   For the most part, they provide accurate comparisons of vacuums performing the exact same tasks.   The question is always how generalizable the test results are to other carpet/flooring and dirt types. 

Odd vacuums like the Rainbow with the dirt collected in water provide unique challenges to the lab.   I have always wondered how the Rainbow could do so poorly in the lab tests, when they seem to do well in real world tests.  I always wonder if they forgot to hold down the lever to keep the power nozzle operating, or if they don't properly calculate the dirt removed from the rug due to the water collection.  It just doesn't seem right for the Rainbow to get a "fair" score for carpet cleaning and a "good' score on bare floors cleaning (most recent tests - in the magazine that came yesterday).  Heck, the miele art got a "good" on carpet cleaning (way back when it was tested), and it is straight suction. 

FWIW, the Dyson DC28 made the top ten at #10 right above the Kirby Sentria.  Hoover has quite a few of the top spots.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

I second that.....its a starting point , gives a general idea as to whats out in the market. ...an overview.  I think the dysons do alittle better than the reviews show...and i kinda sometimes feel the reviews are somewhat biased....or influenced at times and how they wont answer questions...on steam /shampoo vacs. ...ect -

Nothings beats a good vac shop/dealer for advice/knowledge......demos/take homes/maint cost./wrnty.....dealing with folks that actually work on them....thousands of them...not a collector of one brand or someone whos only read about that brand....or its reviews....take home/try out ...wins everytime.

turtle1

Severus wrote:
Hi Severus,

Keeping overall score averages in mind, I think Rainbow's points off via CR are as much due to weight, bulk, convenience and price. I have own(ed) a couple and though I thought they were ingenious in design, buyers have to really be people prepared to make exception for many shortcomings.

For the person who likes to vacuum two or three times a week, set-up and clean-up can be time consuming. They are no fun on stairs -- a consideration for older users and anyone with back problems. As for filtering, I am sure Rainbow meets the mark but there are other vacuums, bagged and bagless, that do as well and make use more ideal.

If you want a laugh, Mr. Ambition here was once so enthusiastic about my last Rainbow that I bought the five-gallon water tank with a wheel set thinking I should have it around for big jobs. Trust me, I have had big jobs to tackle but none so big I ever found courage to get out the super-sized water pan.

The best power nozzle Rainbow had was the Eureka-clone model they started out with when the first D2 was fitted with a PN port. The later two or so PNs that have been made exclusively for or by Rainbow haven't really been all that hot. Matter of fact, I can't quite figure why Rainbow just doesn't take on the Wessel Werks PN that everybody else is using -- including Roboclean, Hyla and Ocean Blue. OR the also popular and effective Panasonic/Kenmore clone PN showing up in central vac tool kits.

Kirby has usually had similar issues with CR. Great cleaner, great dirt and filtration capacity but heavy, bulky and very expensive plus too much fuss is required for attachment conversion. There are many good uprights that eliminate those problems making it hard to praise a machine's one or two virtues.

Keeping the cost of things at the fore, how many many people can really afford to drop $1,500 or more on a vacuum anyway? To my mind CR still points out to prospective buyers good vacuums at decent prices. I do not claim CR as infallible either but in my past experience I have followed CR's lead in regard to purchases of all types and have not been disappointed.

By the way, I like the suction on the Dyson DC28 and am happy to hear it did well. Was there any mention of it being hard to push when set for low pile?

Best,

Venson

Venson,

I was referring specifically to the carpet cleaning score of the Rainbow.   I've never owned a Rainbow, but I've had one demoed and I have several relatives who have owned them.   If we limit discussion to the carpet cleaning test, the Rainbow has the absolutely lowest score of all vacuums tested by CR.  Vacuums are categorized as:  Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair, or Poor.  In the canisters, there was one Excellent, 9 very goods, 10 goods, and only 1 Fair.  The Rainbow scored the only Fair.

If you look at uprights, all of the scores were better than Fair. 

As a former Rainbow owner, do you really think the Rainbow is the worst vacuums for cleaning carpeting of all the vacuums tested by CR?  Or do you think that maybe there is a methodological issue that causes CR to underestimate the Rainbow's score?  

I agree with your assessment of the Rainbow - heavy, expensive, high maintenance, etc.  Even with the not so great power nozzle,  is it really the worst at getting dirt out of carpets? 

Venson wrote:

Severus wrote:
Hi Severus,

The performance aspect depends a lot on the kind of situation you're facing and what you have to work with. Everyone's needs are different. In addition, a rug cleaning test is merely applying x-amount of a dirt and debris mixture and ascertaining how much of it has been gathered within x-time frame by the vacuum in use. That said . . .

If I have to take on carpeting that has a lot of embedded dirt I vacuum more - maybe three, maybe four times a week at least at high traffic spots -- no matter the machine. I keep the practice up until I am satisfied that I'm where I should be as far as the condition of the carpeting is concerned. Namely, little or no areas showing matting or "dead" looking pile with minimal amounts of embedded dirt found down at the backing while bearing normal day-to-day traffic. No machine will get me out of the ditch just by way of one cleaning session in such a situation. (A visit from professional carpet cleaning service would also be ideal.) But -- as long as wear is not a major issue you can bring decent but shabby looking carpeting around again but you have to work at it. However, some vacuums may lessen the overall effort.

Personally I don't think Rainbow is an exceptional performer with the PN provided however if all I had was a Rainbow to work with I'd use it more. Unfortunately, testing entities don't explore that perspective much being the nature of the game is about whose vacuum gets the most one time around. I strongly feel Rainbow's solution lies either by way of a redesign of the brushroll by going for a more effective chevron or auger pattern of its brush strips or using an outsourced piece that has a higher performance capacity. That as worked for other brands.

Being that "clean" is in the eye of the beholder, and often beyond it, CR fortunately broaches the issues of of deep cleaning, something we usually don't think about. "Clean" is a thing that most vacuum users take as having been achieved once they look down and see nothing on the surface of the rug.

My Rainbow SE came with the low-profile PN that offered no height adjustment but just a sliding bleed valve to reduce suction and make it easier to push on high pile. As Rainbow's attachments were pretty much standard I merely switched to a PN I deemed a better performer and was quite happy.

Venson

Venson,

Regarding the Dyson DC28, CR said the following:

 CR's Take
Overall, this is a very good, if pricey, upright that was among the better performers at cleaning carpets and bare floors, and for picking up pet hair. It had very good airflow for tools, and was excellent at keeping its emissions low, but it scored only fair for handling. Dyson has been among the more reliable brands of upright vacuums.

Highs
The Dyson excelled at cleaning bare floors and keeping its emissions low. It was also very good at cleaning carpets and picking up pet hair, and had very good airflow for tools.

Lows
This model is pricey and was fairly hard to push and pull.

******

Regarding the Rainbow's fair score for carpet cleaning, you may be right that the power nozzle is the weak link.  I still think it's odd  that the Rainbow has the absolutely lowest score on carpet cleaning among all vacuums tested.  However, I'm not sure how CR determines how much dirt is removed from a rug.   CR considers that information to be proprietary. 

Severus wrote:

Hello Severus:

When CR rated the MIELE Art series 'good' at carpet cleaning W/O a brush roll, I was floored.  And it further reinforced my view that I expressed above about the CR ratings/rankings:  A guide and not the final word.

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:
Hi Severus,

I believe that the weight of the dirt picked up during the test would be compared against the initial amount of dirt put down for the test. The collection device of the vacuum tested -- dust bin or bag -- would have to be weighed before use and then after.

However, I've no idea of the prescribed time window for the test.

Venson

CarmineD wrote:

So we are to use CR as a guide ======unless it supports your argument.

You have been criticizing Dyson and supporting Oreck.  You hinted that the upcoming CR ratings would support your claims.

Now that it doesn't you brush CR ratings aside.

More BS.

Venson wrote:
I was under the understanding that it was actually the carpet sample that was weighed, both before and after cleaning.

Dusty

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I thought we left off at Best Buy extended service plans and product replacements.  Did you do some homework and decide to pick up your sign.  There are alot left.

WRT CR [Consumer Reports], it's a starting place.  Gives shoppers a background and comparison of SOME of the available vacuum products, features and prices.  Retailers use CR as a way to determine what to carry/sell.  Retailers use CR to promote sales of particular brands. 

I made no mention of the October 2009 CR ratings and rankings.  Thank you very much.  The last prediction I made was in Dec 2008 in response to a poster here [Tomas] asking for comparison opinions on the SEARS Progressive upright [$250] and HOOVER WT Anniversary SP [$150] edition at COSTCO.  I said after recommending the HOOVER based on price and performance, that this partilcular HOOVER model may dethrone SEARS in the number one spot in CR in March 2009.  One of the many times, I was right.    I grow weary of correcting you all the time. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

Excuse me for chiming in.  I hope it's not the rug sample, tho I always say a rug can hold its own weight in dirt and look clean to the human eye.  I believe WRT Consumer Reports it's the mass/weight of the test materials before and after the vacuum is used.   

Carmine D.

CR is what it is.  For the most part their tests are really good.  However, they pick some type of dirt or other substance (e.g. saw dust, talcum powder, cat hair, etc) to use in their tests.  For most vacuums, it really doesn't make much difference.  However, there are some vacuums like the Rainbow that fail on non-wettable dirt.  While the Rainbow may perform ok on normal household dirt, certain kinds of dirt substitutes could clog the Hepa filter and kill performance.  Dyson's dirt collection system is a little more robust to different kinds of dirt.  I suspect most bagged vacuums work well on almost any kind of dirt.   Certainly some test dirts could clog bags/filters artificially fast.


HARDSELL wrote:

CarmineD wrote:
Good morning Carmine,

As it was explained to me (and it's quite possibly incorrect) CR clean and weigh a sample carpet, add 100 grams of whatever CR uses as dirt, use a machine to force the dirt deep into the carpet and then vacuum the carpet a set number of times.  When the procedure is done the carpet is reweighed to see how much of the 100 grams is gone.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

I've never heard it being done that way.  But maybe its changed.

Carmine D.

Hi,

I just called Consumers Union -- (914) 378-2000 -- and, as per Severus, the organization considers this proprietary informormation. What's the big deal? I dunno.

The rep I spoke with did mention that the test material is made up of something like talc and sand but would elaborate no further.

Best,

Venson

The following link may be interesting to some.

http://www.housekeepingchannel.com/a_99-Vacuum_Cleaner_Testing_at_Consumer_Reports

Venson

Found this on You Tube.  Doesn't answer everything but at least shows some testing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWsGxhi9DsE

Dusty

Severus,

I agree that CR is what it is.  What I disagree with is the way that Carmine is quick to point out that Hoover and Oreck score higher than Dyson with CR.  Always says a top rated by CE.  Then when his favorite scores low tells us it really doesn't matter.

I have to admit that it has no impact on my purchases.  I have said for years that their tests do not give the same results as my actual experiences.  CR is the joke of all electronics forums.  If memory serves correctly they once awarded a best buy to a van simply because it had more cup holders that tne others. 

I have a Rainbow that is probably 20 years old.  Only in for service once.  A local indy told me the motor was shot and that I should buy his Panasonic.  I thanked him and took it across town to the Rainbow center.  New brushes in the motor and less than $20 expense.  Never faltered since. During the time that I used it regularly guests frequently commented on how my old carpet always looked new.  I still us it from time to time primarily as my do all/shop vac.  A great cleaned but a pain in the seat to clean after use.  Still better than those Hoovers with the screen filters.

BTW, how did the bagged Hoover Platinum score?   I played with one at Sears a day or two ago.  I really liked it and from all that I have read it gets top consumer ratings.  Bags are expensive tho. 

dusty wrote:
Thanks Dusty,

So we now know its 100 grams of test medium (approximately 3.5 ounces) on medium pile and they do sixteen passes. (The sixteen passes does give any given machine more than enough chance.)
I think they must weigh the amount of stuff they pick up. It's not practical to weigh a rug the size of the sample they used to determine what's left of 3.5 ounces of material.

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

My favorite brand/model vacuums HS, unlike you, are the one[s] that users prefer over all others to vacuum with as often as possible in their homes and are easy and quick for them to do so.  Plus, meets their cleaning needs and budgets.  If the brands/models score well with CR and the Carpet and Rug Institute [CRI] , I'll point that out.  CR praiseworthiness and CRI approval are icing on the cake.  Why?  CR has had savvy readers, consumers, and followers for many years.

What gets in your craw is that after 7 YEARS and in as many models your favorite brand can't score in the top tier of CR.  Consistently getting bested and beaten by vacuum brands you loath and impugn here.  In part, because they are alot less expensive than your brand.  That's the reason you impugn CR in other products too.  You don't like CR period because they rate your brand as form over function, sizzle over substance, and pricey with mediocre performance.  All categorizations I agree with also.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

The problem I could see with weighing what is picked up is how they would account for dirt that would cling to the walls of the hose, stay in the brushes, blow past the bag etc.  While the dirt may be out of the carpet it may still be lying in other parts of the vacuum and not recorded in the final results.  Darn those CR guys and their secrets! :-)

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hi Dusty:

From what I understand that is part of the CR testing.  CR wants to determine how much dirt actually gets into the bag/dirt bin.  If its stuck somewhere else in the dirt/suction path, the vacuum gets dinged by CR.  Clever testing. 

Carmine D.

CR's pseudoscience (vacuum) video's:  mp4 or avi 
(click links to watch or control-click links to download)

DIB:

You said here that dyson has to rise to the top tier ranks of CR to be a serious contender for mainstream USA buyers [ I paraphrased].  You were right, tho you have since taken it back or toned it down by impugning CR every time it holds dysons' performance to the fire.  James chose the venue, big box stores.  When he did, he/his staff should have known that his products would be in competition with big box brands much less expensive that know the CR drill and perform for the money. 

Now that James can't get above the 10 spot with his $600 innovative vacuum, he needs a retreat.  With big box stores [even HSN] shunning the latest dyson products, James has to play nice nice with the indy's.  Gets in your craw doesn't it.  Niche seller.  Which isn't bad for the high prices.  The best thing you and dyson can do is kiss up to the indy's and hope they bite.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I like doing battle with you here (mostly) and want to encourage you to keep using “paraphrasing, I believe, I think, if my memory serves me, etc.” vice “you said” only.  Many times you misquote me and it’s tiring, it’s not ideal for getting a responding post.  So keep it up (only quote if you can produce my words and in context, and demonstrate the date of my posts).  You recently posted (suggested) I did not like independents, which is false.  I do indeed like independents, I loath the dishonest ones (there’s lots of em).

Do you have a point?  When we’re in a recession, people spend less.  Pre-recession, Dyson did $1b - $1.5b annually.  Not bad for a backyard inventor, eh.

Perhaps Dyson should make a donation to the CR “can’t make it’s monthly nut fund” to insure a higher ranking/fair ranking.

Indeed the pathetic, low-life, dishonest indie/s not making enough money off Dyson products (per item) is an issue.  When Dyson reinvents the lowly vacuum cleaner, receives high reliability ratings, and then the bottom-feeder indie con bad-mouths the Dyson, ONLY so to make more money selling their exclusive and much higher margin (than Dyson) vacuums, is an issue.  Even if Dyson “kissed up” to these indie’s (had Miele-like margins and bag/belt sales/service sales), these “victims” still cannot get past their jealousy of Dyson.  Although, Dyson could get them into counseling or some other self-help program. - Maybe the dual-persona poster here could get some help too.


DIB

DIB:

Here's the points.  First, dishonest business people regardless of product/services don't stay in business very long especially in a bad times.  Your mud slinging at all "dishonest indy's" is disengenuous.   Name a few if they're out there.  I'd like to know who they are.

Second, with the waning dyson sales in big box stores, what's Sir James/dyson to do?  Look around.  The indy's are going great guns picking up the sales and service of all makes and models.  So that's the route you/dyson have to go in the future.  IF it's not too late.  Make nice nice now, or they'll tell you to stick it where the sun don't shine. 

Now that you know the points, you can agree/disagree.  But "can" the how great James art and your hero worship of him.  He/dyson still can't get a handheld that works properly even at $270 plus $60 for attachments and he and 500 engineers have trying for 7 years.  Maybe that's why he'll never be more than a back yard inventor.

Carmine D.

BTW a side bar point is that dyson vacuums can't make the top tier of CR.  As a big box seller, if dyson can't make the CR list, retailers won't sell.  Why?  Because big box store vacuum buyers won't buy.  Big box retailers want mainstream products that move quickly off the shelf to turn over their inventories and make profits.   Dyson vacuums just accumulate dust and dirt: On the outside.

That's the other reason dyson needs to bow down to the indy's and kiss their butts to sell his vacuums.  Get your clothes pin to stick on your nose and pucker up.  Should be easy for you.  You have alot of practice with James.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB,

Don't be such a sourpuss.  Dyson should be congratulated for making the top 10* in CR.  It is quite an accomplishment for the DC28. *Technically Dyson DC28 and the Kirby Sentria are tied with a score of 67/100 at #10 and #11, so the Dyson gets the 10 spot rather than the 11 presumably due to the Dyson name preceding Kirby in alphabetical order.  Perhaps it's luck of the draw who knows. 

If you only care about ability to clean carpeting, the upright vacuums rated excellent on carpeting are:  (#1)Hoover Windtunnell Anniversary, (#2) Hoover platinum bagged (at 13 pounds), (#4) the Hoover Tempo widepath, (#9) the Hoover Windtunel aniversary bagless, (#11) Kirby Sentria, (#13) Eureka boss 4D, (#16) Riccar Brilliance, and (#20) Riccar Supralite RSL4. 

Dyson needs to watch out.  The new Hoover Platinum bagless scored the same overall as the Dyson DC17 animal for a much lower price and better performance on pet hair.

In terms of bagless uprights, the Dyson is the 3rd highest bagless behind only Kenmore and Hoover .

Note to Hardsell:  The Royal Eminence model MRY9750 at $600 is rated #31 with 59 points.  

Severus wrote:

What is CR thinking.  The Royal is one of the best because i own it.  

Seriously, It is an OK vacuum, however, I do not get a warm fuzzy feeling that it deep cleans.  It does make the carpet look well groomed.  Sounds like an Oreck doesn't it.

I really liked my test drive of the Platinum bagged at Sears.  I plan to purchase on this week for a test in the home,  Sure wish I could sell the Kirby (and the Royal).  I ain't parting with the Rainbow. 

Hopint that you have a good day.  Mayve repair some Orecks.

HARDSELL wrote:

Not for awhile.  The ORECK Pro-Plus upright/canister with one year supply of bags on sale at COSTCO for $298 comes with 2 free annual services at any of the 450 ORECK stores nationwide and a 3 year guarantee.  And rates the end cap position at my local COSTCO store. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell,

Is it safe to assume that you think your Rainbow does a pretty good job of removing dirt from carpeting?   I really have a hard time believing that the Rainbow is the worst vacuum for cleaning carpeting among all vacuums tested by CR.  It seems so counterintuitive given that Rainbows are sold by in home demonstrations (certainly with some trickery), but they have to wow the buyer enough to spend an obscene amount of money. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Knew youd come around sooner or later.....appears to be hope for you yet HS....But if i may ask, what is it you like so much about the Rbw?

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'turtle1'

As the saying goes, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  HS did.  Jumped ship [HMS dyson] before it sank. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

No service center or dealers for DYSON around......would all this not be avoided if james were  to put these into play ?  Whats to stop this from happening? So since hes doing so well in our current economy....why not  get it done and avoid indys all together?Why not free shipping for dyson owners ....during wrty repairs?

REALITY..without the indys ,dyson  is dead in the water.... dyson needs them. they dont need him. dyson put himself in this situation..and now must deal with it...that or  do the  dealer/srvc cent  thing....but he wont.....wonder why that is DIB?......the only one with issues is dyson......your a nobody to dyson ,you dont exist in dyson land....so why do you care whos or how many butts hes gonna have to kiss to stay alive.....are you gonna be beside him puckered up and ready for work....are you gonna be the one he calls when all comes crashing down...bottom line dib-when a dyson breaks-send it back to dyson for repair....or one of his many dyson service/dealer  centers...problem solved.......and no more bad indys to deal with.

CarmineD wrote:

HI CARMINE

Yup....life boats are filling fast. But we got DIB  a seat with his name on it.....so itll be waiting  on him.....nice, dry and cushy.....even got room for one of his 6min $200+hand vacs...cause were nice like that.

turtle1

HOOVER bagged Platinum on sale at Wal*Mart for $298: 

BTW, at that price [$298] buyers had better scarve them up.  When word of the CR rank/rating gets out, and it will, the HOOVER bagged platinum price will be upped to MSRP at $399.

Carmine D.

Hello 'turtle1'

Seems everyone has dyson's number except DIB.  "There is none so blind as he who will not see."

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

If you click on the "Read Reviews" it will take you to the W*M Web Site.  If you click on the "Watch Video"  above the HOOVER decal there is a 5 minute video demo with the features and specs.  Enjoy.

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

I think Rainbow does a very good to excellent job of cleaning carpets.  Certainly did better than others that I have used that are rated high by CR.  I would have to rate Oreck the lowest that I have used for deep cleaning.  I have used several that did a good job of cleaning, however they had other faults that I did not like.  I have said many times that CR must not test in the same manner that folks actually vacuum.

Two biggest strikes against Rainbow would be price and the hassle required to clean and store.  I actually do not like cannisters of any brand.

None is better at trickery than Kirby.  Maybe Carmine.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

ORECK's have to be used daily/almost daily for the most efficiency and effectiveness as a standalone upright.  That's their forte.  Quick and easy to pull out and use often.  That's why they are used in hotels and motels!  If you don't use ORECK's daily, then plan to have a full size deep cleaner like a HOOVER for your weekly vacuuming.  Especially with medium to high pile carpets.  And use your ORECK for the high traffic areas and/or ad hoc clean ups in between the weekly HOOVER vacuuming.  I'm almost positive I've said that many times here before.  I know you don't read and comprehend very well:  Ref: Your misunderstanding of BEST BUY ESP and product replacements.

WRT trickery, if telling the truth is your view of trickery, then you are absolutely right.  No maybe's about it. 

Carmine D.

retardturtle1 wrote:

I haven't actually come around and I haven't jumped ship any more than Carmine.  The DC07 did beat'em and closed Hoover as we knew it. Things change.  Otherwise I would not consider Hoover. I am not a die hard fan of the newer Dysons although I think they are better than some lead others to believe.  The Platinum is Hoover in name as the old Hoover only changed model names with no improved performance. 

I wanted to like the Oreck because it was so easy to use.  If it cleaned like the DC07 I might be using it today. Oreck (IMO) is the most over priced vacuum on the market.  The Platinum has that Oreck feel, however, I believe it will be superior at cleaning. It is priced reasonably and should be a hit seller because of its performance and six year warranty. Not because it is sold with gimmicks and hyped advertising.

I know there is a life preserver left becuase Carmine did not take his when I offered and he sank with Hoover.  Now he is holding to the Oreck anchor and sinking,

turtle,  I liked the cleaning ability and quality of the Rainbow.  Hated to clean it and put it away with all the tools, hoses, etc.  I am not a fan of cannisters.

CarmineD wrote:
Are you speaking from experience about BB replacements?

HARDSELL wrote:

    

I liked the 7 best of all dysons....but found some that did much better at a far lower price/just as durable....not a slouch but with all the hype i expected more i guess...so i was somewhat left unimpressed....and the fact that its bagless was also part of it......nor am i a fan of canisters....but the riccars are quite impressive on power/deep cleaning.....but no way id pay that much - no matter how much i love the brand.

Orecks are great ..cmrcl/or  low pile/ bare floor ,wonderfull to have and own...as i have a 2600 and love it.....great vacuum with a great warranty and service centers coast to coast...a great total package with a sleek new look.

Once or twice id heard of the rainbows being used as shampooers/extractors on carpets.....never tried it or seen it done.  Do they perform well? By the time we get a rainbow in the shop its about gone.....trashed from lack of or no maint...at all....i once saw one that looked as if it had moss growing in it...and still worked....sturdy no doubt but never really thought of them as a deep cleaner on low/med pile.

turtle1

HARDSELL wrote:
Although the Hoover is rated well, you should check the price of bags before buying.  CR reports that the microfilter bags are $5 a pop.

Severus wrote:

I agree....and i noticed that at the shop...kinda steep-  But i feel the trade off /end results/bag size  are worth the expense.....ive talked to a couple people who have one and they love it on med pile...tons of traffic in the house with pets/kids....lots of carpet....and the new wally review/post  would justify the cost....but would like to see $3 a pop.

turtle1

CarmineD wrote:
Ranked #2 at Consumer Reports?  Underhanded Hoover/Knock-off Hoover must of made a substantial "donation" to CR's - "we're millions of dollars short (again)" fund.  View the Chinese owned, operated, manufactured (and maybe Chinese government sponsored) Hoover "Bad boy" destroy the dirt on the HSN demo (below).  The images clearly demonstrate CR's prowess and unsurpassed understanding of vacuum testing and ratings.  


DIB

Severus wrote:

I like the fact that CR is listing the cost per bag in the latest vacuum listings.  Useful info.  The microfiber bag for the HOOVER bagged Platinum at $5 is HEPA rated and appears larger than ORECK's and similar with the self-sealing collar that traps all the dirt inside when removed/replaced.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

No HS, I read the ESP material that BB provides and unlike you I understood. 

Carmine D.

BTW HS I don't need a preserver, give the extra to DIB.  Looks like he wants the HOOVER bagged Platinum too. 

BTW, DIB, HSN was one of the first if not the first retailers to launch the HOOVER Platinum bagged and Lynx stick.  Then again HSN and HOOVER are long time associates in good times and bad.   

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

Where you stands depends on wher you sit.  The ORECK ad on the side banner here shows the dual team Silver series upright and canister for $299, just like the HOOVER Platinum bagged whish you praise.  The most overpriced vacuum on the market today is OWNED by your fave brand.  Its the handheld 30/31 for $270 plus $60 attachments.  You like to impugn ORECK for the giveaways.  The DC31 at $270 should come witha  full size DC07 free!

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

From my own perspective, the ORECK will do better on the lower pile carpets than the HOOVER.  HOOVER better on the higher.  In part the latter is due to the wheels on the HOOVER vice the ORECK.  Of course, the HOOVER has more umph!  That's technical jargon for suction.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Thanks for the HSN/Hoover insight.  The idea of the vacuum is to pick up not leave behind, 50 years as an "indie-pro" and you're not aware of this?  How many of these dogs do you think HSN sold during this Hoover demo and how many of these dogs could you sell using this Hoover demo (as in the above pics)?

In the Hoover demo...  if the HSN director moved the camera back any farther (in an attempt to hide the fact that the 2009 Consumer Reports ranked #2 vacuum is crapp) the cameraperson would encounter nose bleeds.


DIB

HS/DIB:

I'm not critiquing the pros and cons of the HOOVER bagged.  I personally used it and was not impressed with its performance on low level carpets.  It does not have a rug height adjustment.  Nor does ORECK.  But ORECK beats HOOVER on low carpets.  HOOVER beats ORECK on high.  So there's a trade off with both in comparison. 

Now, my real point is don't be sore loser.  HOOVER probably has more vacuum products in the latest CR ranks and ratings that are CR praiseworthy than any other brand in history, period.  If nothing else, give credit where its due.  And HOOVER earns it.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You must have read the Black Tie Geek Squad plan.  Not the same as when I the Oreck manager paid for my DC07 over 3 years ago.  BTW, I have had two TV's replaced under ESP agreements.  No hassle whatsoever.  Try that with an indie.

CarmineD wrote:

I am just as positive that I have said that your requirements are different from mine.  I do not vacuum daily.  Most of the time we go barefoot leaving shoes at the door.  I have no furry pets.  We do have some fish but they are confined to the aquarium.  I no longer drive daily. When I do I want a vehicle capable of getting me where I want to go.  Not one that is only capable of operating in controlled conditions.

I know what the hotel industry uses.  That is why they do not have clean floors.  Do you really think those minimum wage housecleaners care how good the carpet is cleaned?

HARDSELL wrote:
You seem to abuse that return policy or defective product returns. You wont get away with it at with expert indys [thats why you dont do business with them]

mole wrote:

These were not returns.  They were defective products.  The first was a Toshiba CRT TV which qualified for in home service.  A part had to be ordered.  After two weeks of waiting for the part the repairman came to my house and installed it.  That did not resolve the problem in full.  Repairman said he had seen this failure before and it was better to replace the TV.  He called the store from my home and had another TV delivered that same day (Saturday).

Next was a 55 in. Pioneer Elite that sold for over $5000.  There was a known issue some of these sets getting green lines across the screen.  Repairman fixed with parts that Pioneer had determined were needed.  A few weeks later this developed again (occasionally).  By then Pioneer had developed a different solution/fix.  I decided to wait and see if it was a success as I had a five year warranty.  Another month or two and it was found that this fix did not cure the problem and a third Pioneer fix was made available.  I talked to the store manager about my concern of this occuring after my warranty expired.  His suggestion was to exchange for a different TV.  I exchanged for a Panasonic DLP.  It is going strong after 5 years.

An indie would have patched until the factory said no more.  I would then be stuck with a clunker.  Simply being an indie does not mean that you always know more than the consumer or that you will hot try to convince the consumer to be content with the POS that he sold you because you should not expect it to do all that you paid for.

HARDSELL wrote:
  Certainly not all, but many would fall under this guideline.

HS:

Let me proceed very slowly for you.........

Under the BB ESP the first option exercised is ALWAYS to repair.  If a repair is not possible, then a product replacement.  With the same [if still available at BB]/comparable product in value.  The BB ESP kicks in after the manufacturer's guarantee/warranty expires.  If you have a 3 year plan for $19, you paid BB for the 2 years dyson covers and got one for the price of 3 at $19.  Now, even you can figure that out if you go back and take the time to read and assuming you can comprehend.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Name some DIB!  In fact, name ONE!  Can you?  Od is this more of the same meaningless dyson dribble with no evidence. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

If they want to keep their jobs in a bad economy?  Yes, they do!  The guests and visitors to Las Vegas are quick to complain if they are not treated/served in a manner worthy of the city's history and reputation.

Now.... I suppose if I lived in a rural, back woods country locale like you, they wouldn't.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Very true MOLE. 

• Firstly, indy's don't sell defective products because they know the good ones from the bad, unlike big box stores and their buyers. 
• Two, indy's stand behind the products they sell, so customers don't have to pay extra for an insurance policy [aka: extended service plan]. 
• Three, if indy's sold defective products, with worthless warranties, and didn't stand behind their sales, they wouldn't stay in business very long. 
• Lastly, the indy's are the back bone of the vacuum industry.  Just ask James who is repairing his defective products in/out of warranty that require big box stores to sell ESP's to insure the customers' product purchases.

Carmine D.

Perhaps an independent could explain what they do with returns and whether they have to absorb the loss.    My understanding, which could be wrong, is that big stores like Walmart have the ability to dictate terms to manufacturers and the manufacturers share in the cost of returns.  Presumably, an independent has less negotiating power due to smaller volume.  I would assume that a return is repaired if necessary and sold as a used vacuum, possibly at a loss.  Any comments?

Hi Severus:

Excellent points with good questions. 

I can't speak for all the retailers.  Too many.  All retail chains, even stores within the same chains, have their own procedures.  Depends on the volume of their sales and volume of their returns and the terms they negotiate with the maker.  Several years ago, a VP for TARGET claimed vacuum returns were it's highest return cost item.  As a result, TARGET stores contracted with Indy's to buy up the vacuum returns in order to defray the high costs of new vacuum returns.

WRT Indy's: They eat the loss on straight out returns for refunds/credits regardless of time passed.  Some charge a restock fee up to 20 percent, if still under warranty, and working properly.  But the customer returns it dissatisfied.  The indy's, if they are authorized dealers, get a rake off on the makers' parts and have to repair/re-sell as used.  The Indy's can't give a maker warranty on the resale but have to warranty the used product at their own expense.  The proceeds of the used product sale are equal to the product sale's price plus the restock fee received minus all the costs of sale including any warranty repairs after the sale.  Double, triple, whammy.  Lose the new product sale, have to invest additional time, effort and money to resell the product as used, and have to warranty at their own expense and eat the warranty costs of repairs.  If the Indy isn't authorized by the maker, it has to scout around and find the best prices for replacement/genuine parts which diminish the products' profits on resell.

Hence, the reason indy's are particular with what they sell, why they sell it, and when they take it back and why.  If they sell high priced junk that fails to please and/or iweak performers, they inevitably get the products back.  Huge headaches costing more time and/or money to resell.  This is the predictament that many Indy's faced with dyson's DC11.  A lemon.  Dyson forced these on dealers as part of the dealership franchise.  When these lemons came back, Indy's had to suck it up and eat the losses. 

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:
The funny part of it is, manufacturers DON'T have to KowTow to BBS... they just do. Lured by fast profit they think they are negotiating from a weak stance and the BBS, promising huge numbers, have the upper hand. If manufacturers believed in the POWER of their own RELIABLE BRAND NAME they could dictate to the BBS and both could make money instead of losing money long term.

Lucky1 wrote:
Hi Lucky1,

Believe me, I wholeheartedly agree but I do not have that much faith in the makers of a good part of what is on the market. They've got quick, easily acquired profit on their minds and it is obvious in craftsmanship. Sadly, I think it remains all about buy low/sell for the highest the market will bear.

Besides which, what's to buy? How many vacuum makers are investing time in putting out product that is solidly theirs? Who even designs and makes their own PNs or tools any longer? Most of that kind of thing is coming from the same place. Only the names stamped on it are different and if that in the end is the only difference then a savvy shopper can do well for his or her self without worry over having to play the "name game".

There are NO vacuums in the higher price ranges as of late that I believe or even feel might match up to the price asked. As for the lesser priced, I think you buy and, reasonable care considered, may have hope for the best for your buck. The bargain lies in a decent price affording four or five years of use with minimal problems and good performance.

Venson

Venson wrote:

HI VENSON

Point well made and i agree....even tho i work at a shop , ive yet to see the same match ups. .....above $500 i see no difference  vs a $1000 unit to be honest.  Ive worked on a couple thousand vacs in my very short time....but not all...and have yet to see where the xtra goes. But have seen orecks-hoovers-panasonics-riccars- trash many who cost far more and last 15 + years.....i guess im still wet behind the ears.....a long way to go.  But i really feel  that with the right vac shop you cant/wont go wrong....theyll adress your needs/price and show whats gonna work/do best for you and back it up 100%...in writing and a hand shake...like we do. i love what i do...and was trained/worked with a great man...a vet of the business....i learned to be quiet and listen/watch from the best...and his words were the same as yours...with proper care and service a vacuum will last many many years in most cases ...despite the price.
turtle1

Severus wrote:
Hello Severus,

You're right when you say box stores (not all mind you) have the luxury of sending product back to the manufacturers. It's one reason why many times when you buy from a box store you see a bright piece of paper in the box that states if you have a problem with the product DO NOT return to store but call the manufacturers hotline instead.  The suppliers don't want product back so they'll either troubleshoot over the phone or have you take it to a warranty center if possible.  We rarely go more than a week without getting customers from Wal-Mart or Best Buy asking for help either putting machines together or asking how exactly everything works.

As far as product we sell goes all circumstances are a little different.  If a product is defective out of the box it goes straight back to our supplier and we receive a new piece.  If the customer returns product after a week or two and it's still in new condition we put it on the floor as a demo at a discounted price with full factory warranty.  I have never had a problem with any distributor we deal with not honoring the warranty in such a situation.  If the machine has been banged around and looks like someone needed a garbage truck rather than a vacuum we take the cost of a service off the refund price, service the vac and sell the machine discounted with factory warranty.  Having said all this, our return policy is 30 days and in general most machines aren't used more than a half dozen times at best. I can also count on two hands the amount of returns we take in a year as if we do our job properly and listen to what the customer is wanting there should be no reason for anyone to bring anything back. I should also mention all of our refund policies are mentioned up front and printed on our receipts to avoid any problems should a return be needed.  Keeping customers informed and in the know is the most important thing we can do.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Hey Carmine,

Remember CatLady and the vacuum professional that would not do her right?

I named one.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Not quite, DIB.  She got a brand new MIELE!  Try again.  3 strikes you're out.

Carmine D.

Hello Dusty:

Did you carry and sell DC11 canisters?  If so, what were the results?

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Accuracy has never been your forte.  Yes, she finally got a new vacuum but only after she was not done right.  Other dealers here complained of this dealers behavior.  I cannot remember....  were you for or against the hose replacement hatchet job done by the [upstanding] dealer?


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

If accuracy has never been my forte per you, then being blind to the truth is yours.  I was probably the first poster here who messaged Catlady offline with advice on how to proceed.  My advice to her from the start was that she was owed a new product replacement.  But proceed with patience and persistence.  My largest concern with Catlady was never the product replacement by MIELE/dealer.  It was her choice of the the MIELE because of her needs and the expense of bags. 

Carmine D. 

Still 2 strikes left.  Whatcha got DIB.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

Nope, never sold them and to be honest I'm not actually sure they were ever released in Canada.  The closest we'd have at the moment is the DC20 which doesn't have a turbo.  It doesn't sell as well as the rest of the line....perhaps 1 or 2 a month which is in line with our non powerhead Sebo or the Riccar Starbright.  Not a big market for air only vacuums. 

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Thanks for the answer on the DC11 Dusty.

Back to your post for a sec:  As long as you are an authorized dealer for the make, and the customer returns the display/demo to you, you are standing behind the factory warranty when you give it for the maker.  You get the genuine parts at a rack off and give free labor/service under warranty for the maker.  So you are the factory warranty.

BUT...........suppose the used vacuum buyer moves away.  Will the maker/next authorized dealer honor the factory warranty you gave?  Especially if the original buyer [who returned the product to you], mailed the warranty card with their name and date of purchase.  Then, returned the vacuum to you?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
As long as a customer has a receipt as to date of purchase any warranty center should handle the work.  As far as a customer that has mailed in the registration goes, and we've only done this once and it was thru Dyson,  we talked with our rep and they had the registration pulled. Usually we ask that the customer not fill in any cards until they are sure they are keeping the product.  It's never been an issue for us.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

Thanks for responding. 

Just because you might, others don't have to.  I'm not even sure dyson would honor a full warranty.  Why?  Simple.  The sales receipt on the resale CAN'T say new.  It can say demo, display, used, refurb, reconditioned, rebuilt etc.   Sure, a small repair, maybe the second and/or third string dealer would honor.  Maybe!!  But a major component failure with expensive parts involved and time and labor to fix.  I would want to see the magic words on the receipt:  NEW.  Or customer is SOL. 

Most customers now-a-days register on-line now rather than card mail-ins.  Huge hassle to rescind a customer's on-line registration once the warranty is registered.  Ever try?  Let's suppose it's done by card.  Then the product is returned.  Suppose too the card at Corporate is pulled by dyson thru a rep's tele call [which I have to tell you I have serious doubts about.    But let's give all involved the benefit of the doubt.  How would the second buyer register the second warranty in his/her name?  Does he/she even know to do it? 

Keep in mind dyson warranties IT'S OWN REFURBS for 6 months and that's at substantial resale prices for the refurbed products.  You think all the dealers out, as a second string, third string, will honor the original 2/5 year dyson warranty at there expense?  Not unless dyson makes good would be my advice. 

Who honors the warranties on refurbs at Big Lots, Harbor freight and other such places.  Haven't seen Dysons there.

HARDSELL wrote:

Must be a location thing i guess HS.....lady that worked there said they (hand vac-upright) came in about a month ago....im not sure how the warr wks , but its 30 days  with reciept for full refund...cant give an anwer beyond that ....i never thought to ask.

turtle

HARDSELL wrote:

By virtue of the fact that they are called refurbs, the maker MUST warranty unless it is sold as is.  In dyson's case it's the same warranty as the refurbs sold on the official dyson Web Site: 6 months.  BUT........................can you figure out the rest?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
If a customer brings me a receipt with a matching product that's all I'm concerned about.  I've seen independent dealer receipts written out on standard receipt pads that you can get from any stationary store that have nothing on them but the brand of the vacuum, date and total paid.  I have no idea if it was used, new, refurbed or a demo.  Personally, I don't care.  If a customer has a receipt and a matching product I'll put in a claim and at that point it's up to the manufacturer to approve or deny it.  In the 25 years I've been in the business I've never had a rejected claim.  We get paid labor for most of our warranty work, parts are replaced free of charge. I'm happy to do the work and at the same time develop a new customer for down the road.  I would suspect that most dealers would do the same.

I hesitated to mention the Dyson example as I really didn't want yet another thread to turn into an anti Dyson rant but it was the only example I could use.  For your information, the aforementioned Dyson return was indeed re-registered without any problems at all.  As far as customers registering online goes, how hard can it be to pull up a name and delete an account?

Dusty

Thanks Dusty.  I'm not sure other dealers would be lenient with non-specific purchase receipts from another source it does not know and/or recognize.  Especially with the huge quantity of dyson refurbs.  6 months limited warranty on a refurb is one thing.  5 years quite another.  Dyson/product maker has to be willing to authorize the warranty work/parts before authorized dealers down the chain of transactions accept responsibilty to outlay the money and time.   The latter would be the safest and appropriate business path for the dealers out of the original sales loop.

WRT registering warranties on-line:  It's a legal issue.  Who is authorized to override/tamper with the original owner's input? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
If someone isn't willing to do the work for which they get paid and parts replaced due to how a receipt may look they probably shouldn't be a warranty depot in the first place. To save the hassle maybe it would be better if we all just bought from box stores and got proper receipts that everyone can recognize and forget the independents all together...to me this is what you seem to be saying.

Dusty

Carmine has 2 sets of conduct [vacuum manufacturer] codes and methodologies...  1 set for Dyson (rooted in jealousy) and 1 set for most all others.  Frustrated tinkers tend to have this bent.  His biggest claim-to-fame (innovation) was suggesting to Hoover where to locate the toggle switch for the Constellation.  His second biggest claim-to-fame (a proverbial light bulb moment) was predicting the DC11’s demise when he pushed his thumb into the turbo nozzle bar and stopped its rotation.


DIB

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

You argue and rightly so on the spirit of the law.  But don't forget there is also a letter of the law.  The first lends itself to abuse by crooks and malcontents, of which you are not.  The second prevents the latter from thriving.  I look for a balance to both.  Big box retailers are crooks.  They sell product [with the help of greedy manufacturers], make the big bucks on the sales and then let the indy's do the dirty work to clean up their mistakes.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Like I said about you DIB, as long as your head is up James' butt the view will never change.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
G'day Carmine,

I'm quite content cleaning up after the box stores, it's another customer that I'll have for life if I treat them right.

Dusty

As long as he/she is not a crook! 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

I recently visited an independent lawnmower shop.  It was a slow day and the owner spent a bit of time shooting the breeze with me.

He sells the same brand as Home Depot.  He sells the more expensive line and HD carries what is considered the low end.  I have used both and prefer the low end series as it performed better on my lawn.  The owner said that he likes to see the HD mowers come in for warranty work (or non warranty).  The manufacturer pays him $75 per hour labor and parts.  If out of warranty the customer will sometimes (not all) trade rather than pay the cost of repairs.  He then sells the used on at a profit because he got it cheeeeap.

He had a big smile as he told all this to me.  Like you, he is content with the big box business.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HS:

Thanks for proving my point, tho you don't realize it because it's for lawnmowers.  Read on.

What should an indy vacuum store do when a customer comes in with a warranty product bought at a big box store, that has a sock stuck in the hose, has no suction in the tool mode, and was told by the big box store that indy has to fix it free?  Fix it free? 

Even better, the vacuum buyer who bought a defective DC25 ball dyson, that failed after the free return period, and is told by the big box store that the local indy will fix it free under dyson warranty and the indy is not even an authorized dyson dealer? 

Retailers' staffs are ill-informed, ill advised and don't know what they are talking about.  They misinform their customers with false precepts and the indy's have to educate them after the big box retailers made the sales.  Often times having to argue with the big box customers with warranty matters because they got bad information.

Carmine D.

I have a big smile on my face too HS when I retell these stories too.  I'm laughing in the inside at the knuckleheads that manufacturers select to sell their products.  And the things these knuckleheads tell their customers and the buyers actually believe.  Cracks me up.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I can't decide whidh is worse, your ego or your stupidity.  I proved Dusty's point, not yours.

Not hard for me to figure out for you HS!  I have your sign waiting. 

The two points [Dusty and mine] are mutually inclusive, not exclusive.  The indy's are the back bone of the industry, not the big box retailers that you frequent and buy from.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

How big is this backbone?  How many independents are in the U.S.?

DIB

CarmineD wrote:

You should buy from the indies if you are going to preach the sermon.

According to the VDTA there are over 18000 vacuum and sewing centers in North America.

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Like a clock with a pendulum it tends to swing one way then the other. I will grant you that, as I keep saying, people have been conditioned to equate "value" by price alone. This is especially true of the younger populace who have become accustomed to a disposable product mentality and who trust the Internet for information. A source that holds no one to task for faulty misleading information and shady dealings (note all the Ebay Problems and Craigs List scams) I can't help but to believe in the future they might just tire of being "SOLD/TAKEN" by a faceless, un-accountable entity that has taken advantage of them once too often. The problem... will there be a source remaining after the "Free Market" becomes a Monopoly?

Every week people come into the store complaining about some vacuum that isn't even a year old (yesterday it was one that was only used 3 times and that was a return/exchange by Lowes).

Lucky1 wrote:

They also get a lot of bad info from public forums.  I haven't seen the face of any of the pros on here.  I have heard their prejudices.  The pendulum does swing both ways doesn't it.

dusty wrote:

Thanks Dusty.  Quite a huge number which means business is booming for vacuum/sewing machine parts, service and repairs. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS here's something even you can understand.  There is nothing to keep sales clerks at a big box retailers from telling customers a host of false claims and misinformation.  They are not trained.  They don't know the vacuum business.  They don't have access to expert vacuum advice and knowledge.  The latter dwells in the indies.  If you want it, that's where you have to get it. 

Public forums where vacuum professionals read and post have the best and most current information in the industry.  The ready access of all industry pros to the information posted forces the best and most current to be provided.  Not like the loose cannons at big box retailers who say anything and everything to sell product for commissions and the buyers like you eat it up.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

That's exactly what I do and recommend others to do the same. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

CarmineD wrote:

When did BB and Kohl's become indies?  Rember, all the indies on here are honest.

HS:

The big box store purchases like the TEMPO's are new ones I buy to use/assess and gift then away.  The indy store brands I buy are displays/demoes that I keep for own use and loan to friends and family who are in need.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

So, you don't think yo.ur friends are worthy of a quality vacuum.

Besides you are taking a sales form a comrade.  What about service on the BB units.  You now stick it to some indy to cover a BB unit under warranty.

All this goes against you BS advice for others.

HS:

I can tell you've celebrated the Holiday weekend with too much liquid spirits.  Your posts are more illogical than normal.  After you read my post again, hopefully in a more somber mood, if you still have a question post and I'll answer.  It's clear to me I said I buy/use the indy brands myself [displays and demoes] and loan these to friends and family in need.  If they like them after using, they can buy from an indy. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I was totally sober yesterday. I still am.

You constantly preach about the benefits of buying from an indie.  You then tell us that when we buy from a big box store we are not supporting the backbone of the industry.  You also tell us that the indie gets stuck with the repair of bb units when they fail.

Really, there is no excuse for you not following you own advice.  Regardless of how the vacs will be used. 

Please don't bore us by saying that the indie does not sell the cheapies.  You always say that they can fill all our vac needs from low to high end.

HS:

Still hungover? 

Indie's sell the best made and performing vacuum brands and models.  Big box retailers sell the lo-mid-range of vacuums with the venue weighted towards disposables and cheapies.  I buy from both based on this premise for the products I'm buying.

Carmine D.

And HS I recommend others do the same.  If you're looking for cheap, buy from the big box stores.  If you're looking for value for your dollar, go with the indies.  Always.

Now, doesn't your story with the lawnmower store owner/operator validate my precept too.  Home Depot sells cheap low end brand products [which BTW you prefer].  L/m store owner/operator sells high-end brand products.  Even you HS should get this since you posted it.  Unless of course you were soused yesterday when you posted.

My precept in business: You proved it: Indies are the backbone of the vacuum industry.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

No it doesn't support you.  The indie is perceived to sell higher end due to price.  I have used both and the higher priced model left the lawn looking terrible compared to the lower priced unit.

I could buy two of the lower priced mowers for the same or less thatn the higher priced one.  The higher priced will not last twice as long and has inferior performance.

You are breaking their backs with your whimsical purchases.

CarmineD wrote:
I'm glad everyone doesn't take your point of view Carmine.  $50 - $150 vacuums are a good part of our business.  Parents bring their kids in that are just moving out, university students, seniors looking for an inexpensive second vac for around the house.  We rely on all of them now and in the future.  Our prices are no different from the box stores and we offer free assembly and we handle the warranty.  Perhaps it's time to rethink where you're making your purchases.

Dusty

dusty wrote:
Thank you Dusty.

Can you break it down further?  1)  How many Canadian vacuum independents are there?  2) How many American vacuum independents are there?


DIB

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

I'm happy to hear that from you.  Remember once you said I can't use myself as a standard because of my vacuum industry background.  Well here's a case where you are right.  When I go to a big box store to buy a HOOVER TEMPO or DD Kruz, I know exactly what I want to buy and why.  These purchases are genrally less than $100.  I don't need the expertise of an indy to assist in that purchase as most non-vacuum industry customers with $50-$150 to spend. 

In my years of the business, most parents pass down their indy store brands to the kids when they go off on their own.  Usually replacing it with a new indy store brand and having the old one repaied by the indy.  In fact 2 and 3 generations like this of customers keep my business humming for 44 years. 

Carmine D.

BTW Dusty, since you can't buy rebuilts from big box stores, I wholeheartedly agree in the $50-$150 price range indy's are the place for rebuilts.  In fact, many of the indy rebuilts are better than the the newer brands/models that are 2, 3, 4 and 5 times the price of the indie's rebuilts.  Way to go.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

You know HS if you substitute "dyson" for Indy I would agree 100 percent with your statement.

Carmine D.

Dusty:

With regrad to rethinking my vacuum purchases:  Here's my business philosophy for vacuum purchases for all buyers not just me: If you're looking for a one time vacuum purchase at the cheapest price for the short term use:  Big box retailers are your venue.  If your looking for value vacuum products for the long term and a business relationship with a reputable store owner/operator for the vacuum purchases, indy's are your venue.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Your philosophy seems to go against much of what you say here.  The vacuums I sell between $50 and $150 are new and not rebuilt and they sell for the exact same price as the box stores. Why do you not think the independent vac store does not need your business when you're buying in this price range?  We do not make a great deal of margin on the original sale but you put 20 or 30 sales together and the amounts at the end of the month add up.  By skipping the independent all together you are taking that chunk of income away from them every month.  BTW, I have no problem with people coming into the store, pointing to a vacuum to buy, and selling it to them...just like the big boxes.  You should give it a try at your local vac store next time you buy a Hoover.  I'm sure they'd be happy to do business with you.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

I frequent two indies here in North LAs Vegas for my vacuum purchases not counting the 2 ORECK stores I visit adn buy from.  Neither of the Indies sell the HOOVER TEMPO's and/or DD Kruz.  I bought the latter for my Wife who liked it when she saw on HSN.  The novelty wore off and my daughter inherited it.  She doesn't use it, but my 5 year old grand daughter does and enjoys vacuuming with it.  The HOOVER TEMPO's were bought with a specific purpose in mind.  To compare the MExican made HOOVER/Maytag with the China made TTI/HOOVER.  I posted the results here and then quickly gifted the TTI/China TEMPO to a local church.

My sense based on my own personal and professional vacuum experience, is that indies here in the USA shy away/avoid new vacuum brands and models in the $50-$100 range that compete head on with the big box stores.  They can't compete on the sales prices.  Maybe Canada is different? 

Carmine D.

BTW Dusty, if the HOOVER store was still in business at the time, I would have made the purchases from it.  As I did with the HOOVER WT Supreme which I paid $150, [about $30 higher than the big box stores were selling], HOOVER Ultra lightweight, and about one dozen HOOVER Sliders.  Sadly when I purchased the TEMPO's the HOOVER store had closed.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
No wonder they closed.  You told the world that you bought 2 vacs from a bb store.  Remember Carmine, the world sees what you write and since you are a pro they do as you do.  

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

Nope,  Canada is no different.  The difference is in attitude.  We have dealers here that won't touch low end machines because they don't make enough money on them and that's the only reason.  We don't usually have a problem matching most department store sales (occasionally someone sells below our cost, but that happens with high end too) , we may only make 20 or 30 dollars but we also pick up bag sales, service and of course a new customer.  Personally I think dealers that won't deal with low end because of margins are rather short sighted.  Getting a customer when they are young, and that means usually selling low profit product, means keeping a customer for life if you treat them right.

Dusty

dusty wrote:
I agree. In defense of those who don't... not everyone has snobbish reasons. In my case I can't afford to buy 10-20 vacs at a time, occupy sales floor space and hold the rest in storage to actually make the $20's. I realize in the SHORT TERM, Economically it makes sense to sell one HE vac to make the $400 dollars as it would to sell 20 cheapies. This economy is a learning process for all retailers, as we react to it, some dealers will survive who make the right choices and some will fail who don't and then there will be some that fate decides for them, some answers will be in our own hands others will just be destiny.

Lucky1 wrote:
Hi Lucky,

I agree, everyone has their own reasons.  When our store was small and we were just starting out we always went with a "one to show and one to go" setup.  We may not have had a lot of inventory but at least if someone came in we could show we had box store vacuums at box store prices.  Getting the customer doesn't always mean making a sale right away, sometimes it's just the fact you can leave them with the impression they can come back and know they are not paying to much because they are at a small store.  We also liked to find dealer only vacs that our supplier would sell...they may not have big brand names but usually you could offer more features than a big box vac for not much more money.  Never hurts to cover all the bases.

Dusty

Hello Dusty, Lucky1:

Space was always an issue for me and most indies I know.  Hence, indies pick and chose their selections carefully.  The choices you want to offer are brands/models in the same price range as the big box retialers but with a little something more to clinch the sale over the big box store models.   That's what's closes the new vacuum deal so you win the customer. 

I had particular reasons for buying a $75 TEMPO at BEST BUY and a $55 TEMPO at KOHL's [Average cost $65] and a $99 DD Kruz at BEST BUY [BTW about $25 more than its worth].  It wasn't for getting the best bang for my buck.  In that case I'd shop/buy at an Indie and do. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

As well they should and do HS!  So I adsk what's wrong with you?

Carmine D.

HS:

THe closing of the HOOVER stores which I liked to frequent was not only a huge loss for HOOVER but for all makes including your fave.  These stores wre staffed with skilled and trained repair people who serviced all makes and models and were grossly underpaid.

I mentioned that HOOVER blew it in the late 60's.  It takes years for these mistakes to have their full impact.  The closing of the HOOVER stores recently was probably the last in a series of ongoing adverse consequences of the management decisions made by HOOVER in the late 60's.

Carmine D.

Hi,

There was something really great about brand-name service centers. The sense of prestibe, speciality, whatever, that they lent to allowed you to feel you still had a link with company after sale. It encouraged trust.

I have no recall of about the other buroughs but we had a Hoover service center on Seventh Avenue in Manhattan, one for General Electric in Grand Central Terminal and another for Sunbeam, location forgotten. They all quietly faded of the picture before we were out of the early 1970s.

By that time, the importance of the like may have diminished in the eyes of consumerrs since it was obvious that any good serviceman could service most appliances regardless of brand. That weighed in when there was a regular vac shop a block or two away and use a company service center meant a bit of a trip.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Other than ORECK .....never saw one...and way before my time.....bet they were great tho.

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:
Hey turtle1,

For all intent and purpose, Aerus does the same thing. Matter of fact many such sales and service venues here have been slow in dropping the Electrolux name on their shingles.

Deeming their own product as too superior for anyone else to touch appears a way for manufacturers to infer, "Nobody can take care of our product as well as we can," and also generate money not just from parts but service on out-of-warranty appliances at their centers.

Venson

Yes, General Electric had these appliance stores too just to show sell their wares.  Vacuums included.  Ah, the good ole days.  Excellent way to promote the brand and gain a following of loyal customers over the years for the brand. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Speaking of Aerus/Lux, they still deliver bags, filters, and supplies.   Out of the blue, I had a rep come to my house for a free checkup on my Lux. 

Severus wrote:

WOW.....thats a new one on me.....thought the only people that ever came knocking anymore was the IRS....now thats service..

turtle1

Venson,

  Aerus/Lux has in the agreement that the dealers as well as Aerus can have Aerus as the lead logo with the lower part having the Electrolux for 25 years. They can have it in the phone ads too. In smaller print you see "The Original from 1924-2003". They still have a policy of free pickup and delivery and delivery of bags and other parts to customers.

                                                                                  Procare

Personalized and professional service by Aerus/Electrolux.  A thing of the past from a by-gone era in the vacuum industry.  Sadly. 

Carmine D.

Electrolux invited bo-jacking by their dealers by selling everything to them at full retail, and then paying their dealers commission! Bah, Humbug!

If they had sold at a decent discount to the dealer and the branches, and let them make profit on their sales, they could have controlled the bo-jacking, and kept the dealers loyal and happy. They would have been more motivated to call on existing customers because they could have made decent profit on bags, hoses, etc. instead of just a little better than breaking even.  I don't know if Aerus can ever recover their former glory. At one time there were over 500 Electrolux  branches in the US alone, with only four machines  G, L, Commercial wet/dry and B-8 polisher/scrubber they sold THREE MILLION units a year. Unheard of, and never surpassed by anyone except Big Box Brands

Can you buy 3M style clothlike bags for lux?

Severus wrote:

If not, I would suggest that one of the larger 3M clothlike bag, says the HOOVER Style Y, be cut to fit the bag holder cavity, before the Lux paper bag is inserted.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

Doesn't Perfect Lux sell the 3M style bag?

Vesnon

Just a update on things, the site for the museum is now up and running.

www.vacuummuseum.com

Well, I know I'm late in posting this, but back in Sept. I was at the museum, and took com pictures. http://www.flickr.com/photos/16134441@N06/sets/72157622244348793/ Theres really a lot to see, and the way its set up is very interesting, each vacuum in a section that is set up the way it might look at the time the vacuums were new. I definitely recommend it for anyone that likes vacuums, as theres something for everyone, and you'll see vacuums you've never seen before.

Thanks Vacuuman.  Your pictures, and the museum, offer a great display of vacuums and cleaning appliaces that we probably won't see the like of again. I'm looking forward to seeing it myself one day.

In regard to the Tacony plant, does it only handle assembly or molding, etc., as well?

Best,

Venson