Anybody have any ideas about what actually should constitute the basics of a good "green" vacuum cleaner?

I was checking out the Eureka Envirovac's ad claims and specs -- plus some not so favorable customer reviews today. They got me thinking.

Eureka claims that it's Envirovac's 800-watt motor uses less power than the 1200-watt vacuums now quite common on the market. We've had a long run of vacuum cleaners that have served us well using well under 800 watts for many years. So what's the difference?

Is it possible that an efficient 1200-watt vacuum may help get my work finished faster and even out the power consumption question by way of shorter use time? Also keep in mind that the whole issue of a vacuum cleaner's power consumption is highly debatable. Over a year, power used for vacuuming no where near matches the amount of draw by refrigerators, electric ranges and high heat producing appliances within the same span of time.

Better bagged and bagless vacuums do use final filtering medium that may prove a noticeable hit on the wallet if not our ecology. Dumping a dirt bin or water-pan in some ways may lend to saving on what you'd pay for bags although the variable there may hang upon size and price. We use far more paper and plastic by way of other household disposables like diapers and personal paper goods.

The few matters mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg when considering the total question. Maybe an ecologically beneficial vacuum cleaner, or any other appliance for that matter, can be more "green" by way of potential longevity and easy repairability. Biodegradable, recyclable, whatever -- brands and models we've seen endure and provide useful service over long periods of time may be the greenest cleaning machines we'll know by reason of less need for replacement. How do we keep that in the mix while moving ahead?

Venson

Hello Venson:

Interesting and relevant question.  I would say one key element of a 'green' vacuum is the simplicity of its design with a small/limited number of vital components making it up.

Carmine D.

After additional thinking on the question Venson about what constitutes a 'green' [read environmentally oriented and committed vacuum], I have to opine that a CVS would, despite the initial higher outlay of green, be a candidate.  Why? A CVS would if used exclusively for the home eliminates the need for disposable portable vacuums over the lifetime of home occupancy.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Not so fast sir.  One of our biggest add on sales to central vacuums are stick vacs and hand vacs due to the fact that people don't want to lug the hose out all the time for small jobs.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Sort of like owning an Oreck.  You have to store two vacs and attachments and drag it all out to clean.  Where is the simplicity?

Of course you could have 2 or 3 more back up vacuums for the Oreck that have hose and attachments all in one unit. 

I'll go as slow as you like.  I've owned a Dirt Devil handvacuum just for the reasons you mention and it's over 30 years old.  Same one.  Replaced belts brushes and bags.  Still have the original box for it too.  That seems very eco friendly to me.

All depends on the longevity and repairability of the sticks, canns, and hand vacs used to complement the CVS.  Didn't I just read here that the dustbuster turned 30 years old.  Had a few of those that lasted years and years too before gifting them all away to friends and family. 

If these smaller more energy efficient vacuums are used in concert with the CVS in homes and in lieu of the larger more energy consuming portable ones, the overall energy savings in the community, city, state, region and country would multiply exponentially. 

Carmine D.

It appears very energy efficient to use a 4 amp upright for floors and carpets only.  Then use an 8 amp canister for all above the floor and tool cleaning.  Rather than a 12 amp vacuum for both modes.  Why?  The two vacuums used individually will more than likely be used less than the one vacuum in concert for both.  In turn, the two will last their owners longer and use less energy in the process.  Seems 2 each for specific purposes are better than one for both? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
In general the machines built today are nothing close in quality as those built 30 years ago.  We are routinely discarding  rechargeable and electric sticks after 4 or 5 years of use...same goes for hand vacs.  After spending upwards of $1000 on a CV, most customers aren't looking for high quality sticks or second vacuums...they want cheap and easy to use, which generally means disposable. I would also point out that using yourself as an example doesn't really count for much (no offense meant) as you know how to repair and service your vac...the average consumer does not and is quite willing to throw product away rather than repair knowing they can buy new for 30 or 40 dollars

Dusty

Venson wrote:

i see the CV systems as  the greenest way to go....but prefer an upright w/good filtration .  The upright allows me to take and keep my power

 with me wherever i go.....and at the moment i dont mind carrying it up or down stairs....when i do' ill keep one up one down. Never been a

fan of the CVsystems......no matter how eff /green or clean they are...sometimes green isnt always better... As long as the vacuum you use filters good

and has the power on hand for the task...then its efficient./green enough ....and w/ proper care it will last many years to come.

Iknow my views may change as i get older/wiser....or have allergy issues. i just dont feel all we have/use needs to be green....not with the little use

 it gets compared to all day/everyday running appliances.... the ones that really hammer us every month.

turtle1

Hello Dusty:

To my knowledge, the red Dirt Devil hand cleaner I bought and used for the last 30 years is the same sold in stores today.  I would also add that I believe the quality and performance of vacuums today as being comparable to those sold 30 years ago, if not even better.

And WRT to me as a point of reference, belts, brushes and bags as repairable parts on the Dirt Devil hand cleaner are not beyond the average vacuum customer with the desire to try.  Which make the Dirt Devil hand vacuum, in my opinion, due to the ease and inexpensive repairs and longevity, a 'green' vacuum.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

hi carmine

I agree....those ddvl hand vacs are hard to beat......take a lickin and keep on tickin...a  true durable hand vac that will last the test and stress of time....and abuse.

But lets not forget the great orecks.......durability and efficientcy at its finest.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hi 'turtle1'

ORECK was 'green,' and still is, long before the environmentalists and politicians, coined the word and term.  4 amps, one of the largest paper bags in the industry [reduces need to replace bag often lowering the number of bags needed] and 30 components to it.  Simple. 

Carmine D.

Here's an article related to 'green' appliances.  Enjoy.

Carmine D.

Program to Offer Appliance Rebates

Thanks for the article Carmine. I'm glad to learn of something beneficial that the broader public can benefit from. Not meaning to play favorites but Whirlpool, for one, has always been a favorite of mine by way of its production of not necessarily the fanciest but quite solid, efficient and better-priced home appliances. (If you think I have problems about 1500-buck vacuums you ought to see me when it comes to dishwashers.)

I'll be curious to see how much new ground is broken in regard to energy efficient appliances in the near future.

Venson

Hi Venson:

HOOVER/TTA has already started to display the energy star for its products on its Web Site.

Carmine D.

Platinum Cordless System with LiNX Technology

LiNX cordless products from the Hoover Platinum Collection are the first cordless cleaning tools that utilize 18 volt, interchangeable Lithium-Ion batteries. The Platinum Collection Stick Vacuum uses Hoover's Patented WindTunnel™ Technology combined with bagless, cyclonic filtration to provide the performance of an upright on hard floors with cordless convenience.* The Platinum Collection Hand Vacuum enjoys a 2X longer runtime.** Lithium Ion technology provides fade-free power and a battery fuel gauge shows remaining battery life. With a quick, three hour charge time and an environmentally-friendly Energy Star rating, the LiNX Cordless System is truly the future of cordless cleaning!

* on hard floors Per ASTM F2607

* * as tested per ELTP-002 against a leading competitive lithium-ion cordless hand vac

  What is Energy Star?

The Europeans are way beyond us in recycling old appliances.   Although this refers to Dyson, it apparently applies to all European manufacturers:  http://www.dyson.co.uk/support/weee.asp

What is WEEE?

The WEEE Directive is a European law, which came into force in the UK on 1st July 2007. It's designed to reduce the amount of WEEE going into landfill. This means that all manufacturers like Dyson will be responsible for the disposal of old electrical goods in an environment friendly way.

Dyson and WEEE

To emphasise our commitment to recycling and the WEEE initiative, Dyson are offering you the chance to recycle your old vacuum cleaner when you buy a new Dyson upright or cylinder from our web shop at www.dyson.co.uk. When placing an order for your new Dyson vacuum cleaner, all you need to do is let us know that you would like us to collect your old vacuum cleaner no matter what the make. Dyson can collect (from UK mainland only) your old cleaner free of charge and dispose of it in an environmentally friendly way. It really is that simple.

---

WEEE Directive FAQ

What does the WEEE directive mean?

The WEEE directive is a European law to minimise the impact of electrical and electronic goods on the environment by requiring the re-use and recycling of waste, so that the amount of WEEE going into landfill is reduced dramatically.

How will the WEEE directive work?

All producers, like Dyson, will be responsible for the disposal of end of life electrical goods in an environmentally friendly way.

When does it come into effect?

It comes into effect on 1st July 2007. It has been phased into other European countries over the last 2 years or so.

Why is this happening?

Over our lifetime each one of us throws away on average 3.3 tonnes of electrical goods. To preserve our environment we need to look at ways of becoming more sustainable.

What is Dyson doing towards this?

We are part of the largest alliance scheme called REPIC (Recycling Electrical Producers Industry Consortium). REPIC is helping us and most other major electrical manufacturers to achieve the WEEE objectives, and if you purchase a Dyson directly from us we can collect your old one and recycle this for you.

What do I have to do?

Nothing at the moment. It just means that when the time comes to renew your vacuum cleaner you can take your old one to a designated collection facility in your area for recycling, or if you purchase a Dyson directly from us we will collect your old one and recycle it for you.

What do I do with my old Dyson?

You can take it to your nearest designated collection facility, or if you purchase a new machine directly from Dyson we can make arrangements to collect your old one when we deliver your new machine.

Hi Severus,

We'll be hard-pressed to find the same in many places here.

Just about to praise my local PC Richards & Sons which makes a practice of removing old large appliances from your home when delivering new ones. I just checked in with that department at my local store. It turns out that your old, range, fridge, whatever, merely ends up in a dump in New Jersey. So much for progress.

Best,

Venson

Hence the reason the rest of the peoples of the world called Americans wasteful!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I find that issue very important. I'm told that if the rest of the world were to consume on the same level as we, we'd need five more planets to accommodate the waste and pollution. This may make some shrug, but other parts of the world live way less large than many of our lesser funded citizens here. The expansion of industry all round the world makes me wonder how long it will be before mandatory recycling rules will have to be put in place worldwide.

PC Richards' pick-up policy is good for sales I'm sure. Being an apartment dweller and having not the slightest idea as to how to easily dispose of a dead refrigerator, the store's offer clinched the sale. However, I never once thought to ask where my old fridge was going.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

Perhaps some of these issues will find their own solution.  Hardcopy newspapers, once thought to be the products that would eventually deplete the country's entire supply of forests, are no longer as relied upon by daily readers as TV and on-line news.  So at least for now the forests are safe. 

Carmine D.

The next major breakthrough in vacuum cleaners will be their composition.  The plastic housings and components will be replaced by a material that is just as strong, durable and more eco friendly.  Probably a material already in use for some time in the NASA space program. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

And we all know that the government is not wasteful.  Always looking for ways to save.  

Absolutely HS.  'Green' as in dollars.  Medicaid has bankrupt the states, Medicare will be bankrupt in 8 years, and Social Security soon thereafter according to current predictions.  The cash for clunkers funded with $3 BILLION in taxpayer money will end on Monday at 8 PM and only $143 MILLION has been paid out to the dealers who rebated cash under the program.  Over 50 percent of the applications have been returned to the car dealers by the Transportation Department, which hired 1000 new Federal employees to process the paperwork 24/7.   And Obama Care is headed for a cliff if both Democrats and Republicans who are listening to their constituents [with an eye on the 2010 elections] have their way.  No wonder we say 'In God we trust' not in Government we trust.

Carmine D. 

I owned an Electrolux Envirovac BAGGED upright for a number of months before giving it away. It really wasn't well thought out despite the fact that it claimed to be environmentally friendlier and having the same suction (800 watts) than its bigger sisters and brothers. Based on the UK/European Powerlite uprights, the Envirovac was priced at £80, double the cost price than their basic Powerlite with 1700 watts power. I have one of those basic uprights too and they're really not that bad even though they are cheaply built and very lightweight/flimsy I wouldn't imagine many buying the Envirovac idea because the cost is more than the basic "high power" models that most vacuums come with these days and the synthetic dust bags are more expensive; I'm surprised Electrolux didn't use their old Boss uprights SMS/Washable fabric dust bag as the bags for the Powerlite upright series are based loosely on the old Boss bagged uprights.

For me the most ecologically and environmentally friendly vacuum cleaner I continue to keep and use are the old Hoover Junior models. Yep, it uses a paper dust bag (and some can be converted to using fabric dust bags) which are cheap to buy, the belts are cheap to buy and it does its job of carpet hair and thread pick up without problems. This is why the Junior model was most successful even though it had a pernickety hose and tool set with paltry suction coming out when used. Other downsides is that because it has no filtration system it is an unhealthy machine but it only has 300 watts of power so it is isn't likely to cost much to run. Granted the metal models will take longer to rust but the 1980's models in plastic and metal do provoke some better environmental disposal issues. Although I'm not a fan of Oreck, at least the XL model also has a 350 watt motor too.

The world has been power hungry for years and this is why every company tries to outdo the other in terms of who picks up the best, who is quieter, who is better built. Apart from its electronic floor head this is another reason alone to why I love Sebo's X/Sebo 20 year old Windsor Ensign; it has an 850 watt motor (max to 1000 watts) so in theory, in terms of outright power it is also much more environmentally friendlier against the more powerful competition but also manages to pick up AND contain the dirt in a healthy way. It also has a great hose at the back so it replaces the practical style of the Hoover Junior as well as extra filters that you don't always have to replace (except the main carbon collecting foam filter on the motor) Granted it is not bagless but then I've never read any data about burning dust bags and if they are toxic.

It is however a great marketing skill with the Envirovac. As is Dyson's WEEE law of dumping their own machines; all manufacturers are trying to do similar things but if the machines have been built with early design processes geared to making a machine as earth friendly as possible then brands like ORECK and SEBO should be applauded for continually producing vacuums with low motors.

A few of my thoughts on 'green' issues and vacuum cleaners...

Certain vacuum cleaners have long been sold on having a powerful motor. The introduction of bagless vacuum cleaners gave this a new angle as with an efferent filtration system, a bagless cleaner can demonstrate a comparable, consistent airwatts figure to that of a bagged cleaner, while using a less power motor, as measure by air watts. Hence Dyson's objection recently with Electrolux marketing a 'green' cleaner:-

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/news.phtml/23245/dyson-slams-electrolux-claims.phtml

'The Ultra Silencer has a 1250W motor. Dyson compares this to its DC24 Dyson Ball with a 650W motor, that in a recent Which? report was said to perform as well as a machine with a motor twice the size.'

In defining which vacuum clearer might be 'greener' than others for energy use, we'd also have to take in to account overall efficiency; how well does it clean to a certain standard in a defined time period - if it takes twice as long with a motor at half the watts, it's generally no better in the power use stakes. Now we're back in the category of how aggressive does a brushroll need to be to do am effective job, while not wearing down the carpet, etc.

Another angle you might measure for bagless cleaners over bagged cleaner is the 'carbon footprint' in the manufacturing, delivering and disposing of bags and filters.

The Dyson 'Recylone' cleaner was mentioned in James Dyson's book, but by all accounts was only on the market for a limited time.  The idea was that once your Dyson clearer was at the end of its working life, you could phone up Dyson and get them to pick it up from your house, free of charge. They'd take the machine apart, sand blast and melt down the components, which would then be used in the manufacture of a new 'Recyclone' cleaner featuring green coloured styling.

Presumably, a number of factors prevented the Recyclone idea taking off. Moving production overseas wouldn't have helped, as loading up a shipping container with old vacuum parts and sending it halfway around the world can't be that efficient. Dyson still offer to collect your old vacuum (any make) for recycling, when you order direct. Primarily due to initiatives under the European Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) legislation which makes manufacturers and retailers responsible for recycling equipment at the end of its working life.

However, I noticed something interesting the other week. I was talking some items to the local disposal site. There, I found a separate container for vacuum cleaners, full of the usual brands - however all the Dyson cleaners were kept away from the container, in a separate pile. I can only suppose that rather than being dumped, the Dyson's are sold on for cash, to anyone who's in the market of refurbing them with new motors or for spare parts, etc. Dyson clearers make up the majority of domestic vacuum cleaners in the UK that have a viable resell value on the second hand market.

So, Dyson earns some 'green' points here by having vacuums that can be reused in this way and hence why the Recyclone proposition was short lived ...but no wonder they're keen to collect their old cleaners for recycling, 'lest there be too many refurbs floating around, depriving them of new sales!

Electrolux Launches New Lean, Green Cleaning Machine

MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - July 2, 2009) -

Editors Note: There is a photo associated with this Press Release.

Green by Electrolux, introduced across Canada today, is the first central vacuum system made with recycled resources. With 93 per cent of the system's plastic parts made from recycled CD and DVD cases, and 77 per cent of the system's parts recyclable, Green by Electrolux is the most eco-friendly central vacuum system on the market.

Green by Electrolux is designed to improve indoor air quality and deliver whole-home cleaning power, while conserving household energy and reducing our carbon footprint. Homeowners can keep both a clean home and clear conscience knowing all aspects of this central vacuum system deliver quality cleaning power, while minimizing the environmental impact on the earth.

"We continually strive to bring consumers innovative homecare solutions," says Scott Ride, President, Electrolux Central Vacuum Systems. "Our Green by Electrolux combines environmentally friendly manufacturing technology with high-efficiency operating functions, placing this central vacuum in a class of its own."

Green by Electrolux offers a greener clean from start to finish:

- The unit and its packaging is made of 75 per cent recycled materials, including 93 per cent of the system's plastic parts. Even the owner's manual is printed on chlorine-free recycled paper.

- 77 per cent of the unit's parts are recyclable, diverting waste from landfills.

- Carbon dioxide emissions are reduced by 183 kg, the equivalent of driving 1,096 kms.

- A powerful flow-through motor delivers high-efficiency cleaning power, requiring 10 per cent less electricity to operate than competitive systems.

- Noise pollution is minimized with one of the quietest operational systems on the market.

"Green is ideal for people who are looking to improve their home with eco-smart products, as well as for those looking to improve their indoor air quality, which is often overlooked," adds Ride.

Green by Electrolux's sleek design is built to perform 20 years or longer - three times the life span of a typical upright vacuum, saving energy and reducing waste in landfills.

Green by Electrolux uses a self-cleaning HEPA filtration system to create a healthier indoor living environment. In addition, this central vacuum system comes equipped with a complete attachment set including an air-powered Active Pickup Brush for use on both hard and carpeted floor surfaces, along with a complete set of ergonomically designed, lighted Premier Tools for cleaning multiple household surfaces.

- - - - - - - - - - -

This vacuum is nothing more than a Eureka CV100A with some recycled plastic content... 

Hi MOOseUK/

Thanks. Nonetheless I would like to say that we have many "ultimate" vacuum brands, which usually means high-priced, including Dyson being sold here in the U.S.

Vacuums like Kirby, Rainbow, Filter Queen, Oreck, Aerus, Electrolux, Miracle Mate, Dyson, Miele, Sebo and more are to be found in abundance on eBay either new, used or as refurbs. They sell mostly because they are well-known and specific buyers have been made to believe they are better.

Even the theft rate of vacuum cleaners in department and big box stores has increased to who knows what fold merely due to names, claims and prices.

Regardless, there are many practical-minded people who will settle for used and refurb "name" vacuums than be soaked for the price of the same brand new. I've done this myself and have been quite happy with the result.

Also, biodegradability may be outweighed by length of use potential. The ability to suffer and endure bumps, bangs and the odd tumble downs the stairs means a lot to a lot of people. There are still plenty of all-metal vacuums that provide wonderful service and durability and that for which parts will be available for yet years to come. Some are already 30 years or more old. Though older, many of these can be refitted to up the filtration ante as well.

You and I of course, come from a different points in time. In the past I was quite accustomed to seeing vacuums made by manufacturers of just about any brand that were easily repairable. Matter of fact a lot of vacuums and small appliances got tucked away in the attic as either Mom or Pop was going to get around to either having them fixed or fixing it themselves. If a vacuum's motor merely required new carbon brushes they usually were easily available. A relatively handy owner could find them cheaply and install a new set himself. Now, carbon brush wear usually means replacement of the entire motor.

One of the other issues about "green" is that it seems that less and less of us know what to do any more when it comes to executing simple fixes and more and more of us are denied that possibility by way of device design. My grandfather wasn't a TV repairman but he could identify a burnt out tube, go to our local hardware store and buy a replacement that made us good to go. Only an expert has an idea of which transistor it is that may not be functioning.

It would be great if appliances were composed in a more modular fashion so that malfunctioning components could be discovered, removed and replaced.

Makes me think that getting to be an old geezer has its bright side after all though it's sad to see a younger generation being rendered helpless by "smart" business people.

Venson

M00seUK wrote:

Hello M00seUK:

Perhaps dyson has an agreement with the disposal sites to pick up all the old trashed dysons for dyson's own recycling program.  Thereby saving the disposal sites the added costs of dumping/disposal/wreckage of the trashed dysons and/or paying the sites a nominal fee for the old dysons.

Carmine D.

PS on my post:  It would behoove dyson to enter into such agreements with disposal sites to reduce the number of used [these are clearly not eligible for refurb] dysons and dyson parts on the vacuum market which ultimately compete with the new dyson vacuum and parts prices.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,
There certainty has been a trend over the years away from repairing appliances toward a 'dump and replace' mentality. Often it's more cost effective and easier to throw something out in the trash and have a replacement selected on the internet and sent direct to your door. Many people have precious free time in this day and age, but this rash consumerism isn't so great for its impact on the environment.

My dad being an engineer, virtually everything around our house was repaired by him. When the Dyson DC04 stopped working a few years back, he took it apart, found the problem and ordered a replacement motor which he fitted himself. Naturally, he's in the small minority of people who can and would actually do this.

The refurb market certainly appears healthy for Dyson cleaners. My granddad could have easily budgeted for a brand new Dyson, as the inheritance he left my family was to show. But he was more than happy with a refurbed DC04. As you state, it's down to the perceived appeal of the brand, but also the value added through unique design features that make the cleaners retain a lot of their value.

Interestingly, there's a reverse trend to this in IT. If you're fitting out a small office with a workgroup server you can spend in the region of 1,200 GBP on a Microsoft server licence and 1,500 GBP on the hardware. The Microsoft-based solution is very comprehensive, but if your needs are basic (as most small businesses are) it is possible to acquire an old desktop PC for say 150 GBP and use 'free' open source server software to offer much the same service. This is same type of open source software that gave Google their huge advantage over the internet search market. They converted 'free' software to their requirements and used commodity hardware to achieve massive growth at a low cost.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,
The disposal site in question is run by the local authority, so if a supplier was looking to acquire the used appliances to prevent them ending up as refurbs, they would have to contact each local authority individually. Personally, I think it's unlikely that a company would go to this much trouble, partially as it could generate a lot of negative publicity if they were being seen to use underhand tactics.

The Dyson collection service is positive environmentally speaking, but also commercially. They're already dispatching a new cleaner to an address, so it doesn't cost a great deal more to collect the old one. It helps maintain their obligations under the WEEE directive. As mentioned, any Dyson's vacs collected will likely be recycled, rather than going to refurb. It's also a convenient value-added service for the customer, which allows Dyson to compete with their resellers, without discounting their recommended selling prices - hence why they have to use 'free' accessory kits for promotional offers on current lines.

Hello M00seUK:

In my view it is very easy to do.  The local disposals need only a dyson contact name and number to call after X number of dysons are accumulated at the dump.  Then a pick up is made.  Or, a set day every month for a pick up at each of the dumps.  Quite simple.  The positive spin of course would be recycling not artificially keeping the prices high on new products and parts. 

In their infancy, several of the big vacuum sellers in the US routinely bought up their old used/trashed/traded in models from all sources who were agreeable.  And "reconditioned" the old vacuums to original specifications and resold them thru company stores at company set prices.  The companies' reconditioned vacuum programs were especially successful during the great Depression years and the WW 11 years and after.  Eventually there was competition among buyers for the old/used vacuums and the sources sold to the highest paying bidders, not always the original companies.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I dunno if it differs in the US, but in Europe there's ever increasing taxes levied on landfill to encourage the local authorities to recycle items wherever possible. For example the CRT TVs that are disposed of, they have the option of either paying a landfill tax to bury them or to sell them for a small amount to a recycling company who will break down all the glass and metal for resale. So it's a fair assumption to make in this case that all the vacuums are being recycled, but that the Dyson's are being separated out for some reason.

If someone like Dyson was to offer a price to collect their machines from the disposal site to prevent refurbs entering the market, how could they use the recycling defence if all the machines were destined for recycling in the first place? I think it's likely that the local authority can say sell vacuums on for recycling at say 5 GBP, but can pass on the Dysons for spare parts / refurbs at say 25 GBP per unit.

M00seUK:

If you're inclined to think/believe that dyson would only pay 5 GBP to buy its vacuums to recycle and not 25 then you might have a valid point.  However, knowing dyson has the most to lose and the least to gain by offering 5 if the market is paying more, I suspect local disposal officials would sell to the highest bidder.  The question becomes who is willing to pay more and why?

Carmine D.

 

"So it's a fair assumption to make in this case that all the vacuums are being recycled, but that the Dyson's are being separated out for some reason."
 M00seUK

Agree.  There are buyers willing to pay for these dysons rather than see them get dumped/disposed like the other brands.  My question is as I said: Who is willing to pay/bid the price up and why?  More than likely the price paid per dyson fluctuates from site to site depending on the supply and demand.  And more than likely dyson, if it does sanction buying these from the sites, allocates an amount in total for the purpose/program rather than establishing an amount for each one bought.  The expense would more than likely be categorized by dyson as recycling costs regardless of the final use and disposition of old dysons.

Carmine D. 

As a related talking point, it was common knolwedge for many years, and perhaps still, that the US government spent more in recycling costs to collect and dispose properly of old paper and metals than it actually was able to recoup in funds for usage.  But the expense was long justified as being environmentally and politically correct as opposed to profitable.

Carmine D.

Deleted.

CarmineD wrote:
Not quite. My point was that a dumped vacuum might be sold on for a nominal price, like 5 GBP, for recycling but clearly there's a reason that the Dyson's are kept separate, because they are can actively be sold on for a better price. Usually, items left will instantly become the property of the site owner and if anyone wants to remove them, they will have to agree on a price.

Dyson would have little justifiable reason for uplifting the vacuums, other than to discourage after sales of machines and parts. It's like if you need a replacement car door, you might call a junk yard to see if they have the same model as a write off... and Ford, say, actively going around buying up all the car doors off their scrapped cars to prevent lost sales through their authorised repairers. It's a lot of work and most people would find it desperately underhand if it was exposed.

In this case, being a local authority is would be fairly simple for anyone to put in a FoI request and find out if the disposed vacs are sold to single person / company or not.

M00seUK:

Not quite [back at you].  Salvage and junk yards are in the used car parts business for the profit motive.  Dumps/disposals are not in the business to resell garbage for profit.  They charge recycling/dumping fees to defray the expenses of operation which are funded by local taxing authorities.  I agree with you that there is something more done with dysons.  You opine that independent vacuum dealers/persons are buying up the dumped dysons and reselling either in whole or for parts.  You may well be right.  I opine that dyson may be doing the very same.  More than likely both may be in competition and bidding the prices up.  I stated that this is not uncommon.  Several very successful vacuum companies, in their infancy and before recycling was an issue, did this in the USA with huge success in reselling the old vacuums as reconditioned to factory specs.  And set the prices.

The dumps are indifferent to who buys the dysons and why.  They will sell most likely to the highest bidder.  Who has the most to gain as the highest bidder.  Independents acting willy nilly at the whim of after market buyers and/or dyson with the ability to write off the expenses as business related? 

Carmine D.   

CarmineD wrote:

Hi Carmine

  I agree.....money talks and CASH is king......and dyson as i see it has the most to lose by not buying them up. this would be a way to control the market on used/refurb parts...allowing him to keep all dyson prices high......overpriced. ....all is fair in war......and im suprised all dont do it. Cant say i blame dyson for it tho..... id do it also in all honesty. .youll try anything when your in a sinking ship....desperate times call for desperate measures.

turtle1

Hi 'turtle1'

CASH, or in this case, GBP.  On the barrel head.  Cash and carry for junked dysons.  No checks, no receipts.  In theory, the dump has rules and regulations on how these funds should be collected, reported and used to defray the costs of dump/disposal operations.  In theory.  In practice, what really happens? 

Carmine D.

Oh boy.  Idle hands...

Between [so-called] Severus’ Boycott Dyson theory, Carmine’s and Retardturtle’s Dyson’s conspiracy theories, I’d say you guys could use some much needed down time.

Hey, I hear the next Star Trek convention is just around the corner.  Pace yourselves and stay focused on what really matters....  the prize... the convention, and being with others who are like-minded.  Phasers off.


DIB

DIB:

The truth is there are a host of factory refurbed dyson models advertised weekly for sale by all big box retailers.  Who do you suppose refurbs these to factory specs and how do you suppose they get them? 

Carmine D.

I know about the return refurbs.  I don't know about Dyson manipulating the UK Dyson market as you two layout in your theories.  Are you and Retardturtle breaking the news of this occurring?


DIB

So DIB if you know about the huge market among retailers in dyson refurbs where do suppose they come from?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Take all the time you need to answer.  You can get assistance with your answer too.  I'll even help you if need be.  

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hint:  They're not being recycled by dyson under the trade in your old dyson for a new one. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

And it's not the hush hush friends and family dyson discounts at 50 percent and more off MSRP [to boost lagging sales]!  Think you have the answer now?  We're waiting............

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Carmine,

I wish to talk of Dyson controlling / manipulating the [junk] Dyson vacuum market per yours and RetardT theories.  So, how is it done and where is the proof?  Phasers off.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB

    Well.....no proof and more of a hunch....or my theories on it anyway.   Why seperate them from the rest ? ...gotta be a reason....what better way to control whose hands or shelves they end up on...then to buy them up and control that small end of things.....thats what i would do. And how its done.....seperate / pick-up /pay-up......take to place  where the scrap rebuilding and salvage takes place....then on to the refurb market.   when money is involved ...anythings poss......dont see where dyson or anyone else is above this.....its actually a smart idea/move...seems like it anyway.

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

You know how business works.  Your reasons are as good if not better than the ones that DIB proposes for his righteous dyson.  DIB avoids the truth and the facts.  The facts, as you know them in the vacuum business, allow the 'refurb' market to be manipulated [to use DIB's trekie terminology] and controlled by the brand maker, at least in the USA.  You also know that that there are laws governing the makers which regulate labelling, selling, and recording of all "refurbs."  In direct competition with the refurbs are dysons that are sold as 'used', 'reconditioned,' 'rebuilt' and 'demoes/displays.'  If these are in the hands of dyson franchised dealers, their sales are probably monitored and manipulated by dyson, at the risk of the dealer who doesn't obey.  If they are indies, with no ties to dyson, it's a sales war with no holds barred between dyson and them on prices and sales in the after market.  We all know how much DIB admires the indies!  I wonder the reason.

See DIB, I told you I'd assist if need be.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

You sound like Jim Garrison with all your far fetched conspiracies and/or lame attempts to link Dyson to this or that, perhaps you should give Oliver Stone a call. 

I’m sure Dyson Corp’s behavior is in line with the industry, I’ve never heard even one negative comment otherwise.  These so-called Dyson dealers (dishonest dealers) have a perfect “racket” going for them.  Customers come in asking questions of Dyson or Dyson repairs and eventually walk out with a Miele or other higher profit margin (for the dealer himself/herself, not the manufacturer) vacuum.

The topic or the topic you created was Dyson manipulating the UK market via junkyards and junk Dyson’s.  Is it common place as you describe or allude to, to throw away near new Dyson’s?  I’ve heard of the wealthy giving away new products they do not want to hassle returning and instead giving away to a charity.  If a new/near new Dyson was put out on curbside to be throw away (junked) a passerby would simply snatch it up.  So how exactly is Dyson manipulating the UK market by controlling discontinued and/or badly beaten up/used up Dyson’s?


DIB

DIB:

As usual you miss the salient point.  I answered for you about the refurbs.  These are in dyson's jurisdiction.  Dyson sets the prices.  All other dysons are fair game to highest bidder.  Since all second hand dysons [includng refurbs] compete for the same target market and sales share, dyson has a vested interest in eliminated the "indy" competition.  Now, here's another question for you DIB.  How do suppose dyson would do this if they were so inclined? 

Before you give me your holier than thou dyson spiel, remember the entire Brit royalty plus PM Brown are in bed with Colonel Guadafi for oil and gas contracts.  Money talks DIB.  That's the point if you miss all the rest.   The highest bidder is getting those junked dysons.  Who do you think the highest bidder is?

Carmine D.

Who controls all those Oreck refurbs.

CarmineD wrote:
retardturtle1 wrote: RetardT,

I have [mostly] no problems with an opinion.  I do have a problem when you’re posting derogatorily and insinuating or stating something has happened or is happening when it is not.


DIB


P.S.  P.S.  In all fairness, others too, go after Dyson in a derogatory and unprovable way.  And that's the challenge...  to disprove (if and when I want).

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I answred that question several times already when DIB did not.  Stay focused.

Carmine D.

DIB:

Your latest post on impugning others' opinions goes right back to you. 

I have a DC07 pink.  After rebates and discounts, it cost me $250.  This price is currently the dyson refurb price for a DC07 pink with a 6 month warranty.  I bought it new September 2006.  It's 3 years old AND has a 5 year warranty.  Still under warranty.  It has about 20 hours of use at most.  For all intents and purposes its brand spanking new.  With the box and users guide.  I can easily sell for less than $250 and/or trade into an indy and the indy sell for less than $250.  Or junk it.  What's to stop me?   

Most of the dyson refurbs sold by retailers today are DC07, DC14, and DC15 models for $230-$270.  Tons of these on the internet and in vacuum stores [visit some indies and see for yourself].  These are also being sold new at retailers at new dyson prices at approximately $100 more than the refurb prices depending on sales and discounts.  I'd OPINE that these refurbs are no longer under their original 2 year warranty.  But no one knows for sure. These may even still have had their 5 year warranty like mine.  Who's to say that these [DC07, 14 and 15] are not also in the junk piles and dumps being bidded on by indies and dyson for resale?  You know for sure?  Or just giving us your opinions like evryone else?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Somehow I missed the answer.  Would you please tell me?

HARDSELL wrote:

Sure HS.  Here is the post again. 

CarmineD wrote:

If you note HS, there are alot fewer ORECK refurbs than dyson.  One of the best ORECK refurb sellers is the HEPA upright for $550 which is all sold out currently.

If you have any questions about refurbs, remanufactured, reconditioned, used rebuilt, demoes/displays, please ask.  I'll be happy to answer or tell you I don't know.

Carmine D.

For the record HS, and FWIW, while I don't make it a practice to visit dumps and disposals, I have on many occasions for just reasons.  I have never EVER seen ORECK's.  As I have never ever seen an ORECK in the neighborhood trash pick up. EVER!  That's saying something since I am rather old in the tooth.  I can say the same about MIELE's too never at dumps or trash pick up.  And I notice those things after being in the business for many years.  I can't about your fave brand which have not been sold in the USA and are not nearly as old as ORECK and MIELE.  I've seen dysonS  in the neighborhood trash here and elsewhere and I always let them stay there for pick up.  On occasion, even with the dyson cartons.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I have no doubt about what you said.  It seems as if all the bad Dyson news follows you.  No matter where you go it is worse there than anywhere else.

Oddly I have not seen any Dysons on the streets or junk stores.  Hoovers are the top candidate here.  Pawn shops and yard sales abound with them.

BTW, Harbor Freight is now selling refurb Orecks.  Must be a lot of them if a national company can aquire enough to sell.

Hello HS:

Your welcome for the answer to your question.

I know the facts and circumstances as they relates to vacuums.  I call them like I see them.  If others, who have a vested interest in a company/brand, have a problem with that, it's their problem.  Freedom of speech gives them the right to say so just as it does me to say it.  I have no ties to any company now and/or ever.  I'm retired from the vacuum store business after 40 plus years and as an industry consultant for over 15 years.   Long time to be associated with an industry.  I like to think contrary to some posters' opinions here that I've learned alot in those 55 plus years.  But I'm always the proverbial student of the trade and willing to learn more.  And I usually do by asking.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Really?  I did a search and found no refurbished ORECK's at Harbor Freight.  Just new ORECK Commercial uprights for $189.  BTW, an excellent price.

Trust but verify.

Carmine D.

PS:  BTW HS I mentioned on several occasions here that the newest Hotel/Casino built at a cost of $600 MILLION in Las Vegas uses two brands of uprights for cleaning: ORECK and SEBO.  The ORECK model in use is the Commercial upright sold by Harbor Freight for $189.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB

So how do you know its not true?....what proof  do have in your possesion that says diff.....I expressed what i felt /how i viewed things from an opinion point of view..just like you do and have done....on many occasions...and its not taken to heart in any way because its just your opinion and freedom to voice it.....to express it.  so if you can[express]  babble on about rats and pimps/vac dealers.......then you can deal with some dyson point of view opinions...so suck it up buttercup.....its a free world...and we all look forward to your posts /comments /challenges DIB.. [even when you state derogatory or insulting comments or views]..so relax and be happy... cause your our favorite dyson buddy. ...and its just a vacuum....so lets move on shall we. 

turtle1

CarmineD wrote:

As usual Carmine, you try to spin it off.  Here is the description.

Factory reconditioned, factory perfect. 120 volts, 60 Hz, 4 amps; Overall dimensions: 9-1/4" L x 13-1/4" W x 48" H;
Weight: 8 lbs.

WHERE DOES IT SAY NEW?

Post the link to Harbor Freight with this ad description. 

Carmine D.

The only ORECK sold by Harbor Freight is the Commercial Upright for $189.  Excellent price.  Why mess with refurbs?  How much could they get?  $100?  What's the business advantage?  Post the link for Harbor Freight if you have it and call me a liar.  Wouldn't you enjoy doing that rather than dilly dallying around with your nonsense posts.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hello my dyson friend DIB:

This post got back-treked after your dyson friend HS who ran interference for you.  I brought it forward so you can respond to me on my views and opinions about dyson controlling the refurb market.  I'm curious to hear your arguments about old junked dysons [DC07, 14, 15 and 18] that are refurbed by dyson and sold in the market place at prices that compete with retailers who are still stuck with these same new models on their shelves and inventories.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=55730

You're so right HS.   I feel like a real idiot.  BUT, now that I have your undivided attention, HS let me opine further on the dyson refurb market IN THE USA.

No matter what spin you/others put on the dyson refurb market it's a huge blemish for dyson.  Posters who know better here have said so for years upon years.  Long before the dyson refurb models were 3-4-5 and more years old as they are now.  These are not recycled dysons thru the WEE [UK] program. 

If you OPINE that these old dyson models [as much as 7 years], like DC07, DC14, DC15, DC18 are still new stock finally sold by retailers AND returned by customers to retailers and then by retailers to dyson for refurb, it's a huge loss of dyson sales revenue.  And a huge black eye on dyson.  Which begs the question: Are these new returns for refurb deducted from the dyson sales numbers before financial reporting? 

If you OPINE that dyson/dyson sanctioned refurbers are collecting these OLD tossed models from dumps/disposals after 5-7 years of use and refurbing for sale, then you have all the negative PR/consequences that M00seUK alluded to. 

If you OPINE both, you have one heck of a bad mix and two black eyes for dyson. 

Now, HS, choose your poison.   OR OPINE YOUR OWN FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES WRT dyson refurbs in contrast to me and post here.  I'm all ears and eyes.

I apologize for making you post this obvious HF ad which I saw.  But I wanted to make a point with DIB and readers here.  You were running interference, so you got stuck in the bucket, and I wanted to ensure I had your undivided attention.  Thank you.  I did.  

Carmine D.

Update on the Cash for Clunkers for Appliances.

Who knows, maybe vacuums will get included. 

Carmine D.

Thanks Carmine. I think careful guidelines need to be drawn as I see Electrolux AB's big appliance sales problem is that they cost too much. Neither it, Miele or Bosch to name a few more deserve brownie points. Let them bring their prices down a bit.

I just got my first look at a Lowe's out in Jersey City. I was knocking around before an interview and got to thinking about dishwasher prices. (What is life without dreams?)

It would seem that Electrolux could stand offering more dishwasher models competitively priced nearer the old American standard brands like Whirlpool, Maytag, GE and Frigidaire. There were several decent "American" models bearing those brand names that ranged from $300 to $600. Yeah, I'd say give the folks a break by making the purchase of a decent appliance easier to achieve. But -- if more extravagance is required by the individual consumer, let the cost of $1,000 or more price tags fall upon his or her own purse. No government intervention is needed in a case like. I in no way feel, as an instance, dishwashers like Fisher & Paykel and Kitchen-Aid's drawer models, supposedly specialty items running from $1.000 to $1,500 easily, deserve to be included as rebate candidates.

Regarding money or damage saving features, it also baffles me that useful anti-leak design for dishwashers -- a system that shuts off the machine's water supply when a leak is detected -- should have to be a feature that requires an arm and a leg to buy.

As for vacuums, there should also be price ceilings. To get relief on vacuums priced up to $650 as not a bad deal. This would be a boon to big-boxers and indies providing reasonably priced goods. However, I see the purchase of vacuum models in the $1,000 range and above as not deserving. Let their manufacturers also consider dropping their prices.

Hopefully, there will be a ceiling, per type and average price, on all appliance rebates comparable to what was claimed to be in place for automobiles. There should also be a clearly expressed plan and line of responsibility for the disposal and recycling of appliances being replaced by benefit of a rebate plan.

Venson

The advisor to President Obama charged with promotion of "green products" resigned yesterday in controversy.  If you interested here's the story and link:

The White House said Van Jones, one of President Barack Obama's advisers, is resigning amid controversy over past inflammatory statements.

Mr. Jones, who has promoted "green jobs," was linked to efforts suggesting a governmental role in the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks and to derogatory comments about Republicans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125221129315388817.html?mod=djemalertNEWS

Carmine D.