Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Just wondering if anyone knows if Miele are stopping their S7 production? I've heard an industry rumour that they are to stop making the S7.

vacmanuk wrote:
Hi vacumanuk,

No but thanks for the heads-up. I will try to check it out for myself and see what I come up with. If there is any foundation to this rumor my first quess would have to be failure to sell well due to price. I noticed while snooping around online tonight that the Tango's starting online price of approximately $950 has been dropped to $849.

The Miele S7 series uprights are innovative, highly efficient, slickly designed and made to last. However, I do not and have not felt the times will bear good for highly-priced household goods with highly-priced accessories -- even "the BMW of vacuums cleaners".

People are really beginning to delve into their cookbooks for bean recipes these days. Most practical shoppers will resort to buying what they need NOT what they want. As well, Mieles glut of about five models makes customer choice all the more difficult. (All are basically the same cleaner except for doo-dads.) Maybe the time to do something sensational should have been tried five years ago before the hammer fell.

Even Prada profits in 2008, as reported late April 2009 in New York Magazine, were reported to have dropped by 22 percent from where they stood in 2007. And who can get more high-end than that?

All that said, my own Tango is still doing just fine and I'm loving it.

Venson

PS -- I have sent a copy of these samesentiments to Miele's customer feedback to see what they have to say.

vacmanuk wrote:
WHAT!!!I'm hoping its just rumor, the S7 is a wonderful cleaner.

Hello Venson, vaclov, vacmanuk:

I have to join the ranks behind Venson.  MIELE picked a bad time for its upright launch.  I suspect it may have to cull/abey the line until times are better.  THe 20 percent fall off in high end retail sales in 2008 over 2007 is actually a pretty good number.  It's been more like 40 percent and more. 

Carmine D.

I like the S7 but I think it is too big for it's own good, I found it a real struggle to keep hopping on the pedal to get it over rugs on existing carpets and its neck wasn't as light as I had hoped. Of course I know Americans will love it generally as even the UK struggles with the size of the Kirby machines. It wouldn't surprise me if Miele were redesigning the S7 however as it hasn't received the best reception in the UK.

vacmanuk wrote:
Hi vacumanuk,

I have carpeting from heavy to light to deal with but have not had the same problem. The S7's 20-pound weight has not been an issue for me either. There are lots of heavier vacs on the market. Besides which, I remember old Hoovers I used that weighed as much as five pounds more that would be pressed to match up. More for posterity's sake than use, I own a Royal PowerCast -- a "bright idea" from about four or five years back. It's a good cleaner that unfortunately weighs in at 30 pounds. That to me is heavy.

As well, the size of the S7 is about the same as better upright models sold here by Hoover, Bissell, Kenmore and any number of other manufacturers.

The good thing about Kirby is that you could probably own one for the next fifty years and only end of getting rid of it out of boredom. That I think that is what still sells them though they are far from ruling the market. However, Kirby's problem is not only size but inconvenient and old-fashioned conversion for attachment use. Albeit about the best rug cleaner there is and easy enough to push due to its transmission for self-propulsion, it is not of contemporary design. Thus you have to systemize your manner of cleaning -- above the floor duty first and floor cleaning last just as back in the day of just the broom and dust cloth.

In any event, I've become so comfortable with my Tango upright that I use the Capricorn canister I have less -- even for stairs and above the floor. I think its nice idea come at the wrong time and, in business, timing is everything.

Venson

I was looking around and saw a blog -- http://www.bestvacuum.com/blog/page/2/ -- stating that Bosch has dicontinued vacuum sales in the USA.

Naturally I called and spoke with a Bosch rep who apparently was not at all aware of the situation herself and had to put me hold while she went to make inquiries.

Upon her return, her answer was affirmative but I was assured, per law, that parts bags and filters would be available for the next seven years.

Then came the ultimate question. "Why did Bosch decide to discontinue its vacuum sales here."

The young woman I spoke being just a phone rep could not of course give a straight forward answer but, as best she could, did inform me that when sales or profits were not up to snuff the usual practice was to discontinue the item(s) in question. She also made mention that despite quality aspects higher pricing may also discourage a willingness to buy.

Venson

For the record, I spoke with Jim at Miele today. (Remember him, Sally, the Cat Lady and the mangled test model?) He claims that the S7 series is not going to be discontinued. Jim also claimed that sales are going well. Fact or fiction? I dunno . . .

Venson

Hello Venson:

Thanks for the reports on MIELE and BOSCH.  Good detective work Sherlock Holmes. 

WRT BOSCH vacuums no longer being sold in the USA:  Not the main product for BOSCH so easiest to cut costs and expenses by divesting itself of vacuum sales in the USA.  Appropriate time also.  Bad economy, exchange rate matters, falling off sales all in concert to dictate cutting overhead.  Least profitable markets and products are usually the first to go.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

WRT management speaking the truth:  Here's a non-vacuum related story of recent and similar note.

I posted about it and will add the results here.  The latest Casino/hotel to open in Las Vegas is within walking distance of us.  Opened Nov 11, 2008.  In June 2008, the CFO [Chief Financial Officer] appeared before a panel of reps from the the banks, gaming commission, gaming regulators and several big time stockholders.  It was a session for questions and answers.  The property costs over $600 MILLION.  Of which 450 MILLION was financed.  Best of everything.  Marble and chandeliers imported from Italy.  Absolutely gorgeous.  THe biggest screens for movies and entertainment in all Las Vegas.  The question was finally posed to the CFO:  Will the projected and anticipated gaming and hotel revenue from the property pay off the debt financing?  He answered:  We don't know. 

I stored that in the back of my mind.  On the soft opening of the property, several days before Nov 11, my dear Wife, her best friend [a hot shot NJ lawyer] and I were exiting the Casino and were met on the elevator by a muckety muck from Personnel.  We chatted briefly and I posed the question:  How long before the new property declares bankruptcy?  She looked at me and laughed.  Her retort: No way.  Not this property.  Perhaps others in LV but not this one.  Sure about that I asked.  Absolutely she said.  Okay I said.  And stored it in my memory.

I posted here at that time that despite her reply I thought by the spring-summer of 2009 it would go into bankruptcy.  Management declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy/reorganization last week after missing 3 months or so of bond debt payments. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

A hard learned lesson for many of the best and brightest!  Whether vacuum makers, financial moguls, and/or gaming giants.

Carmine D.

I agree, thanks for all the detective work. However I've just been to Miele's site in Germany and the S7 still hasn't appeared on their pages.

A Miele spokeswoman phoned me this morning to say that the S7 is still in production and Miele have no intention of stopping it but she will email me later to find out why it is not listed on their home German website. However this wouldn't be the first time Miele have lied to me; they promised me a trial way back in July 2008 when the first models came and by November 2008 I just cancelled the whole trial programme thing. I'm also have concerns with their new HyClean bags (my review of it appears online) as the bags I've had for my S4 and S571 don't appear to close upon removal. Miele want me to send in the bags so you can imagine what I'll be remembering to do each time a bag gets full. I can't understand why they went with this silly inner seal flap; mine gets stuck on the dirt so that when you pull out the bag the dirt hampers the seal opening. IF anyone also suffers from the same problem please let me know.

I miss the IntensiveClean bags to be honest - the pull flap was so much easier and Miele could learn a trick or two from Sebo with their fold over caps on their Felix/Dart uprights.

vacmanuk wrote:
Hi vacumanuk,

The niftiest self-sealing disposable bag remains the one that Aerus/Electrolux. A cardboard seal is automatically broken when you close the bag chamber's lid and a rubber membrane close around the cardboard tab to seal off the bag's contents upon removal. I suppose there's a patent that keeps others from using the idea and that Miele looked for the next best way to go.

Miele self-sealing device looks a ittle elaborate but it works well for me. The HyClean bags have been working wonderfully too. Self-sealing mechanisms may be better for the more sensitive among us. I've been shaking out cloth bags, changing disposable bags of all types for years with never so much as tickle in my snout. Nonetheless, for people like nette who have very real issues with dust sensitity maybe self-sealing makes a real difference.

As for filtering effectiveness, I have seen I don't know how many throw-away bags and heard uncountable numbers of claims regarding dust capture. Despite how much I scream about expense, Miele's high-filtration bags so far are the only only that look like the real deal. The inner wall of the bag chamber in either of mine stays clean. That's best indication that the bags up to snuff. The only cleaner that I've seen offer comparable filtering ability is Filter Queen. Unfortunately FQ, due to design, requires extra care by dust sensitive users when emptying.

Venson

Williams-Sonoma has done something totally out of character. The Miele Pirouette upright "exclusively" designed for (No big deal. It's just a different paint job) has been dropped to $799.

WS continues to carry the Miele Capricorn at for $1,200 and has added the Rotho Twin wet-and-dry to its roster for almost $1,600. I would however note that a large amount of the vacuums on the WS page are listed as exclusives and can be purchased via the internet only. This leads me to think Williams-Sonoma is not putting its neck on the line. No sale, no loss.

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/shop/homekeeping/vacuums/index.cfm?cm%5Ftype=gnav

Venson

My biggest concerns as far as the new miele bags are:

1. on some models, when you open the dust compartment lid the bag pops outward. Sometimes you see that it happened but other times it is so slight you don't notice. This results in the neck of the lid crushing or bending the bag collar. it breaks the seal and debris rushes into the vacuum. VERY messy! A clean vacuum is why you by a Miele! LOL. Tell your customers...whenever the lid is opened, ALWAYS RE-SEAT the bag before closing.

2. The increased cost and perceived value. 2 dollars more and 1 less bag!

As regards vacmanuk's question I received the following via email:

Dear Mr. Venson Thomas,

Thank you for contacting Miele customer support.

I passed your question along to our Floor Care Product Development manager. He stated, the S 7 line is very successful and that there is no chance of that line retiring from production.

Please let me know if you need additional information.

Thank you

Matthew White
Customer Support
Miele, USA
Tele: (800) 843-7231
Email: moreinfo@mieleusa.com
Web site: www.miele.com

Hi Venson:

Thanks for posting the response from MIELE ref S7 upright line.  Sounds like buyers are as please with the new MIELE uprights as you.  Good to know and hear.  I place much more faith and belief in new product assessments from experts in the industry who I know and trust.

Carmine D.

Another reply I got earlier this week:

"Miele is not stopping production of the S7. However to reply to your next question of where the S7 is sold, it has only been released in the UK, USA and Canada."

Now why doesn't Miele produce an upright vacuum in their own German country? Sebo have a big market share there and its not as if cylinder vacuums are the most popular in Germany.

vacmanuk wrote:

Hello vacmanuk:

Since these markets [UK, USA, and Canada markets] already have been selling dyson uprights with some degree of success, MIELE wants to compete in them head on with dyson.  Consumers are then given an act of choice:  $600 for a Malaysian built/made upright vacuum versus $600 plus for a German made one?  Dah! 

At some point, probably soon, the new MIELE S7 uprights will be in Germany.   However, I would tend to disagree with your statement.  I'd say that canisters [cylinders] are still the preference among German vacuum buyers over full size uprights.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
I would not buy any item simply because it was manufactured in Germany.  Japanese cars and electronics are better.  Vacuums likely are just as good from other countries.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I'm not surprised you'd say this.  It's sounds good but is wrong.  The MIELE name brand is not only German made but also has a pristine reputation for quality vacuums in the industry for over 80 years which many say is without equal.  Measured against a relatively novice company like dyson with 5,174 prototypes and a few good products with growing pains [can't find it's right niche yet] and savvy high end vacuum consumers are presented with an easy choice of upright vacuum brands for buying.      

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Please excuse a non-vacuum post, but did I just read that your fave brand auto maker maker, Japanese, just recalled over 700,000 new and late model vehicles for a window problem?  This on top of another recall just a few months ago.   Better?  Oh, really?   Says you?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

They recall and fix at their expense.  Try to get that fro a European car.

European cars should be free.  They have so much profit in parts and labor at their shops.

HS:

That's an excuse for poor quality control procedures.  But I'll remember that when you bring up HOOVER recalling over 30,000 WT's at N/C to customers for 36 reports of failed switches [an outsourced China made item].  And being fined $750,000 by the CPSC so it could balance its end of year budget deficit.

Carmine D.

HS:

Seems your fave Japanese car maker just announced another 100,000 vehicle recall on 2009/2010 vehicles.  Brake failures.  That's 3 recalls in as many months.  Better you say?  You're joking right!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hoover may have escaped the fine if they had taken the initative to report the defect without intervention.

Your excuse for the fine is no less than I would expect.

CarmineD wrote:

At least 50% better and the Toyotas also cost about 75% less. 

BMW Recalls 200,000 Vehicles for Airbag Failures

VW has about 60,000 on recall. Most every model in their line up

And then there is the ever persistant electrical problem that is so inherent with Mercedes. 

There are many more problems with European cars that do not reach recall status.  The are just a pain in the ash.

So in other words your fave Japanese brand is no better than the Europeans?  Now you talking.  SOme of the experts are saying the latest rounds of recalls for your fave brand bodes badly for your fave brand.

As you may/may not recall, I posted here a few years ago that your fave brand cut the design to dealer time from 5 years to 2.  Unheard of.  It thought computer technology and graphics could be used.  I said it would backfire.  It has.

As you know I own American vehicles, Ford in particular.  Don't care for the overpriced German/Japanese.  I've owned Fords for years.  I knew Henry.  He recommended the nitrogen years ago.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I see your years as a pro at twisting the facts to make a sale still linger.  I never said that the Toyota is no better than a European car.  They all have recalls, including your Ford.  I believe that you drive an Explorer which has had numerous roll overs resulting in deaths.  Did Henry also recommend the Pinto to you?  Remember them?

No, I do not recall your prediction about shortened design times.  I hardly see what that has to do with a brake that MIGHT not be as efficient in freezing and icy conditions. 

I can't think of a brand that hasn't had a recall.  In fact Rolls had some serious problems with fires.

I do recall a while back when claimed how problem free BMW's were.  I also recall correcting you with proof that you were wrong.

I thought that you knew I also drive a Ford.  Still that does not make it better than Toyota.

 

HARDSELL:

Yes, a 1999 Explorer, the most traded in Clunker.  And a 2008 Ford Escape, the most bought from Ford.  Two recalls on the Exp in 10 years.  Tires, as you know, which was really a FIRESTONE issue.  And the cruise control recently. 

I owned a 1978 Pinto.  Great little car.  I was stopped at a light and cars in front of me.  I was rear ended by a young teen age woman who had just got her license and was on her way to Community College.  She was doing 45 miles an hour, the speed limit, by her own account.  She ran me into the back of a pick up truck.  I had just gas upped.  The car never caught on fire.  But looked like a Teepee.  Ironically, her father who was the owner of the vehicle has the same first and middle names as me.  I recall looking at the registration in her glove compartment and thinking that's me!   When the cops came they wanted to know who and where was the driver of the Pinto.  I said to them I was.  They didn't believe me.  They expected me to be dead!

Henry, Tom and I loved to talk cars. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
You have a knack for buying clunkers regardless of the item.  Congratulations.

HARDSELL wrote:

Amen HS.  One brand new dyson DC07 pink Sept 2006 for $250 after discounts and cash rebates.  The biggest clunker of them all. 

Carmine D.

Hi,

I just learned per an article at the VDTA's website that the Miele S7 has won a "red dot award" from the Design Zentrum Nordin in Germany.

http://www.vdta.com/Magazines/AUG09/fc-MieleAug09.html

Venson

Thanks Venson.  Very nice.  Good article.

Carmine D.

Hi,

I hadn't realized that I'd received a reply last August 17th. This is the last of my tirade regarding Miele prices. Following is a response to my last email to Miele. It's not Miele's fault. Blame it all on shipping costs, the exchange rate and the ultimate cost of quality . . .

"Dear Mr. Venson,

Thank you for your comments and support. Your concerns have been forwarded to our product developement department.

As for pricing, this is not only set by manufacturing (products manufactured for the US, Canada and Mexico require line changes), it reflects the quality put into that production. Pricing is also effected by shipping, and the relationship between the dollar and the Euro since to buy product from our parent company in Germany we must pay in Euro's.

Once again we appreciate your interest in Miele products.

Thank you,

Charnol DeLoach
Customer Spt. Supervisor
Miele, USA "









Dear Matthew,


Thanks for getting back to me.

My issue with Miele remains in regard to pricing. I have owned many vacuums over the years and mainly bought Miele this time round not because I needed a new vacuum but because I wanted to know, hands-on, the machines I often give advice about to prospective buyers online.

Though I feel Miele products are generally over-priced, I have been certainly pleased all round by Miele’s efficiency, ability and quiet operation. Names are everything when it comes to doing business. As Miele vacuums have a much longer exposure to the American public than those made Bosch, I assume that advantage has been a boon considering the present rather gnarly economic situation in the U.S.



However, having laid out roughly $1,800 total for the two I own, the Capricorn canister and the Tango upright, I remain appalled by the price of accessories and options. I’ve been telling friends that the HyClean bags are hand-sewn to excuse the $18.00 price for a pack of four.

The STB 100 turbo-brush, all of three bucks to make, does not merit a 75 dollar price tag. Nearly 40 dollars for the new SUB20 Universal Brush is also excessive and the 70-90 dollars for the SBB 300 and 400 parquet floor tools is absolutely ridiculous.

I can go to an independent vacuum shop and buy a tool adapter plus purchase generic tools that do the job as well or better than Miele’s nose-bleed high priced doo-dads for far less. Miele should really begin to consider this and come up with some more sensible prices especially when there’s no debatable quality comparison for the like.

Before, I leave off I also want to add that of the two parquet tools I’ve mentioned, I own the SBB 300. It needs a design change that will better concentrate suction and air-flow near floor level.

My cleaners are both in perfect shape but either has difficulty with small but heavy particles the SBB 300 unnecessarily leaves behind. A tool like this should be able to suck up not only fine dust but things approximately the weight of a penny without problem and the SBB 300 fails. Tell your design guys to go take a look at tools designed for old American Electroluxes. To wit – I mean to convey that I’m a consumer that really expects something for his 70 bucks.

I wish that Miele provided me more of the same so that advising a consumer to purchase a vacuum at near or over $1,000 felt worth the while. Overall, Miele has yet to afford me that privilege. There are Kenmore vacuums at half the price that do as well and sometimes better.

Regards,

Venson Thomas