Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Because of old age, arthritis and a bad back, I am retiring my Hoover which cleans OK but is hard to maneuver and weighs a ton.

Was going to buy Tacony 8 LB which is purported to be the same as the Bissell Prolite. However, there were some negative reviews regarding pet hair on the Prolite so I gave up on that because it seems my dog sheds half of his fur daily :-)

Then I considered the Royal MRY5000 at Amazon but cannot find reviews and Royal's website does not say if it goes from carpet to bare floors. They say the MRY6400 does but does not say the weight on the site.

Next for consideration is the Oreck Oreck XL2100RHB-2. This one has 2 speeds and that is a desirable feature. But I have read some negative things about Orecks so am conflicted while at the same time, seriously considering this machine.

Next, I saw a Hoover Clean and Light but don't know how good that would be either. It is supposed to be 2X the suction power of Oreck. Sounds good but why can't I find this vac on the Hoover site? One review at a seller's site makes me believe this would not be good for my use. For example, I would love to be able to vacuum throw rugs or mats without them being sucked into the cleaner. And I like the idea of going from carpet to bare floors like you can with Oreck.

My dream vac is a Simplicity Freedom F3600 but the price is too steep for the budget ... especially when you add in sales tax.

I don't want a Dyson because the commercials are a little too slick and frankly some reviews of their machines were not all that great. I kinda feel that if it seems to good to be true, it probably is not true.

Any comments on the above mentioned vacs or suggestions would be appreciated.

Chris

Hi Chris,

The Hoover U4707 (a generic machine also being sold under the Aerus brand and is also known as the Royal MY6400) has been discontinued by Hoover/TTI. Per the salesperson I spoke with it had shortcomings. He did recommend a classic Oreck.

I checked out Consumer Reports rating for one Oreck and it weighs just 10 pounds, rates "good" for carpet cleaning, "excellent" for bare floors and "fair" for noise level. My friend Carmine, he owns a dog too, swears by the Oreck brand. You may also want to check out -- http://www.epinions.com to search for reviews by other Oreck owners. Also, some Oreck deals have a decent return policy. I'd investigate.

Not forgetting your interest in Simplicity, Riccar it's sister company makes a similar lightweight that runs at about $300. Now this is purely my feeling -- why not go to a local independent vac shop to test one out and if you like it be a bit of a bully regarding the price. You never know, you might just might win.

Riccar RSL1A
Performance 5.5 amps of power
Filtration Twin-Ply Electrostatic
Durability The RSL1A is backed by a 3 year warranty.
Handle Tube Aluminum
Bottom Plate Polycarbon
Wheel Type Plastic
Circuit Breaker Standard
Convenience
Handle Foam grip
On/Off Switch On nozzle
Headlight Long lasting Xenon™
Soft Furniture Guard Standard
Cord Length 30 feet
Color Gray
Factory St. James, Missouri
$309.95

Hope I've helped.

Venson

I have the ORECK XL Classic and use it daily for almost 2 years.  I posted a review here in the Reviews section.  I don't think the 2 speed option is viable.  I don't care for the power switch on the vacuum, but prefer it on the handle grip.  I find it an excellent daily user on all rug/hard surfaces.  The paper bag is one of the largest in the industry.  I have about 1500 square feet and replace the bag every 2 months.  My English yellow lab sheds year round.  ORECK devours pet hair and eats up all the sand that my 3 granddaughters track in from the back yard.  I live in desert of North Las Vegas.  No grass.  Sand and rocks.  ORECK has excellent edge cleaning.  Belts are easy to change.  Belts cost $2.00-$3.00 and I change every 5 months.  Takes less than a minute, just like replacing the paper bag.  I paid $150 for my ORECK XL Classic upright with no other giveaways.  It was a special offer through the US Humane Society.  Excellent lightweight vacuum.

If you like tools on board too, I'd suggest the HOOVER TEMPO.  Weighs in at about 16 pounds.  Retails for $75-$90 depending on sales' prices and retailers.  Cleans and grooms the best.  ORECK is a very close second if used daily.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Thanks Venson. Now I can take the U4707 and Royal off my list knowing they have issues. There is a Simplicity dealer about 10 minutes from here and a Riccar about 30 minutes. From their websites, they are basically the same vac. The one I would want is $569. Too bad there is not a Kelly Blue Book for vacuums - then I would know how much it is possible to negotiate of the MSRP. Sales tax will add 7% to any machine I buy locally.

Carmine, thanks for telling me about your Oreck. You got a good deal. The Oreck I am considering is a commercial machine, blue in color with the switch on the handle and it does have two speeds. If this is the one I eventually decide to get, it would be an internet purchase. I like the longer cords on the commercial Orecks. My current Hoover has tools on board so I could always use that if the need arises for tools. Thirty years ago, I had a two speed vacuum and low speed was good for going over throw rugs so that is why I would like that feature.

Appreciate the input ... I will report back when I make a purchase.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Be ready to go on the day you go to the shop. Be prepared to tell the shop proprietor the cleaner you want by specific brand and model number. (You want them to know that you KNOW the item you plan to buy.)

If in stock, once you've given the model you have in mind a perusal inquire about the cleaner's warranty, the store's return policy, the cost of disposable bags and belts. I would suggest offering $400 cash for the model you have in mind. I would also suggest that if they don't want to meet that price -- hold onto your money think on something less expensive.

Best,

Venson

ZZZZZ wrote:

You're welcome.  Great price as both you and MOLE point out.  I bought 4 more for the same price and gifted away.  All with good results.  On your point about the lower speed for area rugs, well made/said.  I also have a plethora of area rugs throughout my home from wool to berber, low to high.  My ORECK XL21 Classic with one speed does the cleaning/grooming well. 

Carmine D.

Chris;

For your situation, your first choice should be the Riccar Supralite upright or its sister brand, the Simplicity Freedom upright.  It is very good at cleaning carpeting and  especially good at picking up animal hair quickly.  It has a good warranty.  If you could, take a look at the TOL Freedom or Supralite.  This newest model has the blet that does not need to be replaced like the lower priced in its series.  If you really cannot afford it, then step down to the next model.  Actually,  any in the Freedom or Supralite upright series would work for you.  Do not expect to pay as low as $400 for the TOL model. 

I am not sure why you are ruling out the HOOVER Clean & Light.  It is true that this upright is also an Aerus and Royal, but it is also available under other brands.  So it is not dissappearing.  Why not ask, What are those issues"?  The HOOVER cleans well, but not as good as the above Tacony models.  The vacuum cleaner is easy to use/push.  Eventhough this HOOVER does not have a looped handle(my preference), it is still comfortable to hold onto.  The vacuum comes w/a two year warranty.  You can find this vacuum for approx. $100.00 at a major retailer.  At one time, they had it on sale for $80.00.  Looking on the internet,  I can see that many of the vac shops are selling them for alittle over $100.00.  This model is discontinued for HOOVER, but you  will be able to find bags and belts for it.  Looking at price, which some here like to do, you cannot beat.

HOOVER has come out w/a new model.  I think that it cleans carpeting better than the older HOOVER.  It has a new look also.  The only reason that I would keep away from this machine is the upkeep.  Bags for this vacuum cleaner are way over priced for what you are getting.  Comparable "HEPA" or "clothlike" bags come out cheaper.  Even  Riccar/Simplicity bags are more economical.  And w/these two brands, you have a choice of filtration/price levels.

To sum things up, your best overall bet would be to go w/a Tacony "8 lb." upright for its aggressive carpet cleaning ability and bags.

Hello Chris:

Don't know your sentiments about the halo, but for the price this is a deal and ORECK will probably have parts and service available for years to come.

CarmineD wrote:

Speaking of the Riccar.  I bought the RSL4 last year, my advice is to go see a dealer.   Remember, retail is where you start negotiations.  I looked at the Simplicity and the dealer wasn't too willing to deal.  When I went to the Riccar dealer he gave me everything I wanted and at a good price.

The Riccar does a very good job on pet hair.  It has a stiff bristle double helix brushroll that grooms the carpet very well.  You can read my review in the review section so I won't go into all of it now.    The main differences I saw between the RSL1 that can be purchased for $179 - $199 and the RSL4 that I got for $299 are: the RSL4 has an ergo-handle with two speed motor and switch on the handle.  The RSL1 is a one speed switch on the base with a standard handle.  Motors, bags, brushrolls are the same.

Well, I have not decided anything yet. The plan is to go to the Simplicity store tomorrow.

The responses here lead me to more questions.

Carmine, the HSUS now has the Oreck silver for $199 and free shipping. What do you think of this one? The only issue I have with the consumer model is that - from what I have read - they only have a 20 ' cord. I have a stick vac with a 20' cord and it is an annoyance to have to keep plugging it in to another outlet.

http://www.hsus.org/shop/oreck.html

And this is the 2 speed I was considering.

http://www.livinclean.com/-strse-2436/oreck-lightweight-2100-xl/Detail.bok

The Halo on the Costco website has negative reviews. Your good review of the Oreck is one reason I am strongly considering it.

Mike W, the Simplicity that I would like is the 3600. You disagree with Venson that $400 is an acceptable price? The $569 MSRP is really too high, especially adding in the 7% sales tax. I crossed the Clean and Light off the list because of the reviews I have read by people who actually own it ... very negative. Reviews on the Tacony 8 lb. were not good either.

Just, if I could get the RSL4 for $299 I would think I died and went to vacuum cleaner heaven :-) It is exactly what I want ... the same as the Simplicity 3600.

Chris

Hi Chris,

My advisement regarding the price on the F3600 is based on my having purchased not one, but two Mieles within the last year. In both cases, the purchases were made at my local independent vac shop.

First time round, the Miele Capricorn -- brand new with Miele's best power nozzle was being offered at a great price on eBay. Thinking to myself, why not keep the money in the neighborhood, I printed out the eBay post and took it to my local vac shop and said that I wanted a Capricorn at that price AND I got it. I can't call the Miele Tango I acquired a necessary purchase but I wanted one anyway. I again went back to the same shop and also got the Tango well below suggested retail. Believe me, if they had not come up with a price that was satisfying to me that Tango would still be there waiting for the next customer.

There is also another vac shop a block or two away. The proprietor is a pretty nice guy and very knowledgeable but I don't care much his mark up and he is not flexible. Therefore, I shop elsewhere except that I do stop by every now and then to pick up a small item now and then more as a matter of good will.

The main reason for my suggestion is that although I feel the F3600 is a nice enough machine, I think the price for a lightweight machine is a bit much. Your mention of affordability plus sales tax and the like also concerned me. That is why I also suggested that if you can't land one for around $150.00 or slightly more below suggested retail, save your money and buy something else. Times are tight and even $400.00 is a lot to be spending if you need to keep a very tight budget.

If you can't get the F3600, life will still go on and maybe you can do something really cool with the dough you didn't have to spend. In any event, I hope you fined something you'll really like at a price that is good for budget.

Best,

Venson

ZZZZZ wrote:
Chris;

I did not read that you read reviews, but I read the above.  I do not pay to much attention to  opinion sites like epinions or amazon, but I went to review sites today and see that they speak highly of the HOOVER Clean & Light.  I also recall a vacuum cleaner collector's site where many members speak highly of the machine.  But anything I said in the previous post is based on what I know and my experience. If someone is on a budget, this is a good machine.

If you read my above comment(that has not been edited), I said "TOL".  It is new, so you may get it for $500.00, but not $400.00.  For any vacuum,  I have always said to shop around.  When someone wants a Riccar or Simplicity,  I always say to check for the other brand and see what they can do for you.  This is the only way to do it, since Tacony will not allow the same brand to be sold in two competitive shops, in the same neighborhood.  It is possible to get the lower tiered vacuum cleaner for $400.00, but it depend on the shop.  Some will work for you and some will not.

ZZZZZ wrote:

Hello Chris:

My ORECK Classic resembles the Commercial rated ORECK in your link above.  MIne is the same save the two speed switch and ergonomic handle grip and of course the commercial use warranty.  Note that the ORECK Silver series has a headlight and the ergo handle grip with on-off switch.  My ORECK has the standard industry vacuum grip with the switch on the vacuum housing.  My ORECK does not have a headlight.  I like these features, handle grip with switch and headlight, compared to mine without them.  My ORECK has a 20 foot cord.  Not a big deal for me but can be a deal breaker for some.  My house has alot of outlets and I don't mind changing from room to room.

I have said, like others here, and again now that RICCAR/SIMPLICITY lightweights are a tad bit better than the ORECK-s.  But price is always a factor.  Also, my suggestion of the halo, which is now owned by ORECK, is on the price alone.  At $99 I'm having a hard time not buying one for myself. 

Carmine D.

Frye's Electronics is selling the halo UV-C w/o attachments on board for $99.  Claiming the regular price is $119, for a savings of $20.  Makes the one pictured/sold by COSTCO for $99 WITH OBT an even better buy.

Carmine D.

My vacuum search is over. I bought a Simplicity Freedom 3700 for $460 which includes 6 bags and sales tax. We got something off the original quoted price by paying cash. My husband, who vacuums on those occasions when my back is really bad, is disappointed it does not have an adjustable handle because he is tall and has to hunch over to use any vacuum. I love that the belt never needs changing. Also there is some type of sensor which shuts off the motor if the roller gets jammed ... at least that's my understanding of how it works. It seems a bit loud but we can always use ear plugs or in my case, turn off the darn hearing aids ;-) The gentleman who sold it to us knows more about vacuums than I would ever need to know but overall, it was a pleasant experience ... no high pressure tactics ... a very helpful, friendly shop.

I appreciate all the advice and suggestions on this forum.

When we have used the machine a while, I'll write a review.

Chris

Excellent choice.  $460 is much better than the $700 MSRP.  Yes, it does have a circuit breaker that turns the motor off when it senses a problem.  MADE IN THE USA!

Carmine D.

ZZZZZ wrote:
Hi Chris,

What wonderful news! You not only got the vacuum you wanted at a really sweet price -- the bags alone sell for about $17.00 per pack -- but also have someone around the house to push it. I want luck like that. As for noise, most of the lightweight uprights I've heard of have been considered a little on the loud side.

Good health and enjoy the new machine for a long time to come.

Best,

Venson

Chris;

You actually came home w/a better model than you originally wanted.  This TOL Freedom will clean well.  And yes, changing the belts will not be an issue for you.  If something should happen to the belt, it is covered.  All of the  Freedom uprights have a circuit breaker.  It can come in handy and also save your machine.

I knew that you would not get one for $400.00, but you still received a good price.

"Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum will take care of you."

<BR> Mike_W wrote:
Actually she got an even bigger discount than the $150 or so I'd hoped for. With bags and seven-percent sales tax all worked into the final price of the F3700 against the larger MSRP the saving is $240 higher or better. That's just about what I saved on my Miele but I think I may start asking Chris for shopping lessons. She did indeed do well.

Venson

Venson wrote:

It pays dividends to do business with independent vacuum cleaner store owners/operators. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Top of the morning Carmine,

I think you're so right. The "big boxers" have a more take it or leave it attitude.

Yet, BestBuy surprised me a few weeks ago when I picked up a new external drive. The sales person apparently was allowed to negotiate and dropped the price. PC Richard has done the same in past but those purchases too involved electronic goods.

In any event, I'm happy that vac shops these days seem even more amenable to being more accommodating in regard to pricing despite the MSRP on better product. No better way to "stimulate" the economy than that.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

Difficult times call for difficult choices.  Consumers reap the benefits.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Right you are Venson. The sales tax was $30. If the bags are worth $17, I got it pretty close to $400. Now we could have driven to Delaware where there is no sales tax or to one of the state's urban enterprise zones where sales tax is 3.5% but how do I know we would have gotten as good a deal. This shop is 10 minutes away and look what a good deal we were given! If I have any problems, I can take my machine in easily.
I did contemplate buying -  http://tinyurl.com/cah7ar - off the internet but could not get past the idea that once it was here, it would be my dime if I had to send it back. And of course it would not have all the features on the F3700.

Carmine, the box says manufactured in the USA from globally sourced components. I guess that is as good as it gets in today's corporate environment.

I used the Freedom 3700 this morning. The carpets look better than with the old Hoover so I'm a happy camper.

Chris

The Supralites are very good at grooming the carpet.  They are also very good at digging deep for hidden dirt.  I would not compare them to Kirby, but Consumer Reports list the Riccar Supralite just one notch below the current Kirby.  They are a little on the noisy side, agreed.  The bags are huge, the cord is long, the headlight is bright and the vacuum doesn't give you a hernia to lift. 

I have the Riccar model that is just below your Simplicity and could not be more happy.  One word of caution, the fan seems to be rather delicate.  Even more so that other fan first "dirty air" machines.  In the 40+ years I have been pushing a vacuum, I just shattered, and I do mean to the point of pieces falling out the front of the machine for the first time.   The item under the bed was a small charm that had fallen off my mother's necklace, not very large but quite damaging.  The cost of repair was about $30.  As someone with failing eyesight, I fear that the incident may be repeated, but I will be much more careful.

Venson wrote:
The Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price is used more as a "feel good" technique.  It is used by some vac shops to make the customer think the shop is giving them a great  deal.  They post the MSRP on the machine, then tell the customer they will drop the price $100.00 just for them today. That is high still.   Not every vac shop uses MSRP.  If you call up every Riccar/Simplicity dealer,  you will find that they are  not selling the TOL "8lb." upright for $700.00.  That MSRP also is used to convince customers, by the manufacturer, that they have a very top-quality product. You who read and follow CR know that they are trying to convince readers that they do not have to spend alot of money for a vacuum cleaner.  

Adding bags to a purchase is very common.  It is just a part of doing business.  I give extras all of the time.  It does not cost alot.  Wholesale price of bags are not bad.

Never start w/ MSRP when making a vacuum purchase.  

Mike_W wrote:

Then where should we start since most consumers are not aware what wholesale price is for the machine?  I ususally take retail and divide by 1/2 or 50% then negoitate from there.   What is the best way to negotiate pricing?

ZZZZZ wrote:

No less than 5 Federal Agencies oversee and enforce the rules for the claim: Made in the USA.  The cognizant agency [cies] depend [s] on the products.  A direct 'made in the USA' claim means that 'all or virtually all' significant parts and processing are of US origin.  But 'qualified' claims are also allowed, including 'made in the USA of US and imported parts.'  Companies must be able to back up either type of claim.  On another thread here about Tacony, the parent company of RICCAR/SIMPLICITY, I posted a site for a YouTube video about the Tacony plant in St. James, Missouri.  You may want to have a look.  It's a short video and worth the effort and time.

Enjoy your purchase.  BTW, $460 with bags included and no sales tax on the TOL brand newest/best lightweight with an MSRP of $700 is a VERY good deal.  Congrats.  And best of all, it's:  "Made in the USA!"

Carmine D. 

Mike_W wrote:
Well -- okay -- but its my understanding that in business everything costs something. Not only rent or what it costs to turn the lights on or maintenance and salaries but even the five minutes, here ands there, an employee may stop to browse the net. In most of the places I've worked everything has been added up one way or another -- and usually not in my favor.

That said, as an instance, if a vacuum shop burns down or goods are stolen does the owner claim what he actually paid for his stock or what the potential sale value was?

As for give aways, if the wholesale price of bags is all that much a big deal then why are ensuing purchases for the same so high per pack for the upper-tier brands? Am I getting real value for what I am shelling out.

Your point re CR's ongoing alert that you don't have to pay a lot for a good vacuum is of course well taken. Nonetheless, "good" vacuums with long warranties and sturdier builds are an enticement for consumers to anticipate more and so they are willing to invest more. However the problem is getting to a real understanding of how much "more" should cost.

Simplicity's TOL canister has an MSRP of $1,500 as does the Synergy upright. Both have lots good features but what are they worth? Do they wholesale at $600, $900 or $1,200 and how can a shopper go about estimating that?

As I've said many times, I don't expect to be given anything and neither do I expect vac vendors to drop their prices so low that they fall short of making a decent (fair) profit.



Venson

ZZZZZ wrote:
Hi Chris,

In the end result, being a happy camper is all that counts.

Venson

Just wrote:

Hi Just, Venson et al:

Look at the competition for the product in that class:  In this case: Lightweights.  ORECK, SEBO, RICCAR, SIMPLICITY, MIELE [recall the old Art Series], HOOVER/TTI, dyson's DC18 Slim, DC24 and DC25 Ball.  What are the MSRP-s and the selling prices?  Best advice is as you said Venson recently and as Just did about a year ago when he decided it was time for a lightweight.  Know what you want, shop for it, ask the right questions, get the answers, compare, and wheel and deal with the one[s] who will work with you. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Recently, my Son-in-law and I went to the local Lowes to buy a water softener, actually 2 one for him and one for me.  They give you the paperwork in the plumbing department and you go to the cashier to pay.  Kiddingly, I asked the young lady at the cashier desk if they give Senior Citizen Discounts.  No, she said.  Then, kiddingly I asked if they give Veteran discounts.   She looked at me and said: Well, yes we do but we are not allowed to tell customers UNLESS they ask, which I did.  It was 10 percent off the total.  Just need proof: Military ID, or DD214 [honorable discharge].  If you don't have it at the time of purchase, you can go back after the sale with the proof and get the credit retroactively.  I put the purchase on my Lowe's credit card so it was easy.

BTW, Lowes isn't alone.  Like Dunkin Donut coffee and donuts?  Don't forget to ask for the Senior Citizen Discount.  10 percent.  No proof necessary just have to look like an Old Timer. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Venson wrote:

It is very simple.  When looking to make a purchase, you do price comparisons.  I have said it countless times before.  When you look for a Simplicity or a Riccar, find the other brand in another shop and see what they are selling the comparable model for.  Work w/the salesman and tell him that you were at the other brand's shop.  When looking for a vacuum, shop around.  That is very old advice from many.  After a shopper has done the research, he/she can go to the shop and see what the shop owner can do.

When you purchase a tube of toothpaste, do you find out what the MSRP is.  What about coffeemakers and TV sets?  No.  You see what everyone is selling them for.  So why should vacuum purchases be different?  Look at auto purchases.  Do you start at the MSRP when you want to make a deal w/the salesman?  Experts tell you not to.  MSRP is, in a sense, artifically high.  About a month ago, I did research  for a new LCD TV.  I researched the different brands and their features.  I searched cost of product, and s/h if applicable.  I found a quality brand TV w/1080p on clearance.  When I was still thinking,  the salesman asked me what he could do.  Well,  he lowered the price.  I took it and have been very happy since.  The point I am trying to make is how often do you really look at MSRP when making a purchase?

Mike_W wrote:

Typically new product on the market especially TOL sells for MSRP [or close to it] and does so until the market [consumers] meets the demand for the new product.  Then, the product prices are lowered from MSRP and set more in line with competition.  Basic marketing and sales/price theory.

In the case in point, a TOL SIMPLICITY model 3700 sold for $240 off MSRP.  That's a discount of 34 percent.  That's a very excellent price discount for an independent vacuum store.  A sign of the times, no doubt.  Chris got a buy for the times.

Look too at the HOOVER TEMPO price.  Sold before the Consumer Reports MARCH 2009 ratings for $50-$70.  Now big box stores are selling for $79.99.  Higher than even the HOOVER MSRP for the model.

http://www.hoover.com/searchresults.aspx?type=&keyword=HOOVER%20TEMPO

Another case in point, the EUREKA Boss Smart Vac.  Two consumer magazines consistently rate it a BEST BUY year after year.  Sells always at the MSRP $140-$150.  Never discounted.  And its been around for 6-8 years maybe more, just like the HOOVER TEMPO.  Both are consistently top sellers among big box stores. 

Again, it's sales/price theory at work in the market place.

Carmine D.

Just wrote:

Another perspective.  Look at the refurb/rebuilt prices for the brand and model[s].  And compare these to new prices.  If the rebuilt prices are bandied around at lower and lower prices [trending lower over time], then so will the new selling prices for these models.

Carmine D. 

Mike_W wrote:
Hi Mike,

Just for the record -- I don't buy toothpaste but use peroxide and baking soda instead. The product isn't as fancy but offers a better result than any toothpaste I've brought from the store.

To tell the truth, my personal shopping habits for more personal and directly applied consumable necessities are more influenced by product than price. You'll finding me going for the the extra cost if I know or believe the item will serve me. But, I certainly am not going to pay less for a brand of body wash that gives me a an allergic reaction or that has a feel or smell I don't particularly like. However, I do tend to by that kind of consumable at places where I feel I continually get a good deals. Even if the price of one specific item is a bit higher than I care for I feel I'm of the game if the remainder of my purchases are satisfactorily. You win some -- you lose some. I'm not the type to spend a dollar on gas to save fifty cents on a bar of soap. However, finding a good vacuum, fridge or TV does move me to the most thorough looking around I can do.

I normally do not go store to but do go use consumer opinion as offered at epinions.com and the websites of many online providers to help in my assessment of the worth of a certain product. They say lot more than the text provided by the vendor to pitch product. Matter of fact, some opinions are so much to the contrary to the worth of some items, I am surprised they were allowed to be shown. I take if for what is and it appears at least a tacit effort on the vendors' part to be up-front.

I use nextag.com, pricegrabbe.com and eBay to get an idea of top and bottom prices. Certain brands like Miele, Riccar/Simplicity do not appear for other than prices regarding bags and belts.

As for Carmine, judge me as you will, I considr him a friend and am accepting of most of his assessments. He's been in business and I have not. I have no expectation of him, you or any vendor -- present or past -- that I may associate with here or elsewhere, online or off, as far as forthright statements regarding the actual cost of goods as opposed to the MSRP is concerned.

However, I am a staunch believer that you can learn as much from what is not said as from what is said. As an instance, by way of managing an office, I began to learn that all manner of things can be considered tax write-offs especially for those those in business. The bosses newspaper subscription falls under the category of marketing come tax time. A moot point but it flies.

Using "marketing" and "advertising" as two examples and please correct me if I'm wrong, may I then presume that a "give-away" though certainly a wonderful gesture of good will may not be a loss at all if it can be written off?

Reflecting again on what I've seen regarding business, I have also seen a company lose a bread-and-butter client of many years by over-speaking with merely the intent of proving how "good" we were being to them. The process of laying out an explanation in regard to the output of over-quantities being a normal part of that specific industry's way of going about work led to the client's questioning by way of its assessment of past bills. The reason being the client was told it had just been "given" overs. The question was of course, "If you can give them way why did you charge us before?"

How does that relate to this? Knowledge is a key and knowledge not just of the MSRP but a reasonable idea of wholesale price aids potential buyers in assessing if an item in question is worth the expense it will incur. When I look at the MSRP against sale price I am striving to make as accurate an assessment of mark up. If supposed mark-up seems fair to me, I buy. If it does not, I either say so or walk out of the store.

I hate the math as this issue is more algebraic in form than of the plain old "one and one equals two" kind. Yet, I pursue since I do like to know what I'm paying against what it actually cost to supply a costly item to me for purchase and in no way generally am ready to accept a given vendor's say-so. Note, that statement is in no way meant to besmirch everyday, honest vendors.

As for MSRP, as Carmine has noted, generally TOL items initially hit the stores either priced to match or to fall near MSRP. Seems to be what I've seen the like of all along and is understandable. Everybody's looking to make. manufacturer's are eager to quickly recoup funds ventured for the development and making of new product lines and vendors are eager to reap the harvest in regard to new items popular in interest to the public.

Also, having had the experience of buying a new machine well below the MSRP I still remain curious as to what it actually cost the dealer and how the deal works. I bought a vacuum with a $1,195.00 MRSP for $900.00. I also bought a vacuum with an MSRP of $995.00 for $700.00. As far as the sale end of things went, I knew what I felt was acceptable to me to pay and went straight into the store and told them what I wanted and what I was prepared to give them for it.

Case closed but even though I got what I wanted at the price I wanted, who couldn't help but wonder how much it actually cost the vendor due the maker's suggested price. You stated the MSRP means little or nothing and if that's so it would seem manufacturers would do better for themselves by dropping the practice.

There are many other things to think on when factored into price thus having an idea of wholesale price may well prove a boon to shopper decisions. If a vendor sells a well-made product a with suggested price of $1,000 to me for $700 and I know it cost him/her maybe $400, $450 -- whatever -- I am comfortable with the deal. As I've stated I do not expect to be given anything. BUT -- I do want to know what my potential savings by way of fair profit may be by way of vendor A, B, or C. I also know I will never be told that and feel that I and every other consumer best serve ourselves by trying to find out as best we can before we buy.

Best,

Venson

Hi Venson:

I'd say over the years we see eye to eye on the big issues for the most part.  If not, we usually agree to disagree like gentlemen and not take it personally.   

WRT give-aways, bags in particular, I usually made the "goodwill" gesture to "close" the deal if a customer was hedging.  If the customer wanted and asked for the make/model by name and was satisfied with the price, no need to swallow the cost of a pack of bags. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

I can appreciate that however, per a thread a while back, there was a discussion of the price/worth of bags. My line of inquiry was how much could it cost to make four vacuum bags especially those that sell for $17.00 a pack. I recall that some members here, all vendors I believe, felt the bag in mention to be worth every penny. I wasn't necessarily convinced of that but in this light my feeling is if I were giving away salable stock as part of regular vacuum sales -- if allowed I probably add it to my tax return under whatever category fit the bill if the item was of significant cost.

This is not a major issue for me but it would be nice some day to get a real line of perspective regarding value and posted price.

Best,

Venson

Hi Venson:

I recall the thread and discussion.  It's not the wholesale cost of the bags that is foregone by the store owner/operator when the bags are tossed in free.  It's the retail price.  When its done as a matter of sales routine it gets expensive. There is no write off for free bags.  It's a foregone sale that is lost.  And it costs money [out of pocket to the store owner/operator] to replenish the giveaway stock.  Twice as much.  Don't get short handed on the bag stock.  And, tell a customer you ran out and come back the bags are on order.  You just lost a parts sale and possibly more.  How do you put a cost/price on that giveaway?

The deal maker for me was always the warranty.  As a warranty dealer for the new vacuum brands I sold, I would tell the customers, I'll keep the new product registration card on file in my records.  If the product fails out of warranty, I can work with the product maker to get it covered past the warranty period.  That was the icing on the cake.  If I made the sale but the buyer was still hesitant [buyer's remorse] that was the goodwill gesture that made the buyer a happy camper.  Of course, I told the customer, please don't broadcast this to others.  Worked much better than the free pack of bags. 

Carmine D.

BTW, the latter [the warranty] was the edge [the wild card] I always had over the big box stores selling the same brands and models.  ALWAYS!  It worked.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Good morning Carmine,

That was cool. I have never been offered or heard of any dealer doing the like. I imagine it's a near impossibility to replicate that kind of service that these days. Did you have to intervene on the customer's behalf often?

As for the big boxers, BestBuy in this case, I notice I'm no longer being asked whether I want to buy service/replacement contracts anymore while checking out purchases at the register.

Venson

Hi Venson:

The warranty wild card was for cases where the customer was a few days/weeks/month out of the actual warranty period and hence unable to claim the benefit.  A few times, in over 40 years, I played the wild card.  Much to the delight of the customers.  But it was much more a feel good feature than an actual customer need and/or cost to me.

I suspect WRT to ESP-s, most consumers by now are well versed in the ways of Consumer Reports which typically admonishes buyers against them.  Just more evidence that CR is more used/read among American buyers than many here care to admit and give it credit. 

Carmine D.