Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

It's true, no more clutch.  It uses a brushroll motor.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

I assume this is just in the US? The UK version - which was meant to be out in February, I have yet to see one in stores - still appears to have the clutch on both models. Why is it that the Americans have such problems with the clutch, when the UK does not - what do you guys do to them!?

Does the US DC27 employ a separate motor for the brushroll, like the DC17? Or is it like the UK clutchless, belt-driven Origin models?

Argos Catalogue - Spring/Summer 2009

Model2 wrote:
Many Americans would destroy a steel ball.  Some never wore out a clutch in their automobile and others were always replacing them.  Many Americans prefer the simple yet less effective clutchless vacs because they do not carry the Dyson name.  Those other brands have problems same as Dyson.  Like the Miele that had a hose failure in less than a year. The so called pro who repaired it was no better than a big box shop.  Do not let that info leak out.

If it really comes down to abuse, I'm shocked...considering how much more expensive Dysons are in the US. Do people not have any respect for their own property?! Why is it epidemic in the US and not elsewhere?

Model2,

The clutch and/or belt wearing was overly exaggerated by many self-loathing independents.

DIB

Comsidering the DC15, DC18, DC24 and DC25 (yes they all use the ball technology) does not use the clutch setup why the UK version of the DC27 can not have the same setup!   The DC27 UK version is an evolved DC14 looking at the ptictures so far.  Improved Wand, Bin and cyclone setup and possible new brushroll setup!  No sign of it as yet!

One issue I here from people time and time again which has not been address is the design of the main floor nozzle\head.  Due to this design it can stop you from getting into certain area's to clean like against the plint in the kitchens under the lower cupboards etc... (hence why the Dyson Ball vacs are better at this!), the DC03 addressed this issue!

DC18

DysonInventsBig wrote:
self-loathing independents

That's some funny, funny stuff there! Especially from someone defending a company that practices a despicable, heartless, selfish, business practice with no loyalty to anyone or anything but the almighty dollar. James Dyson is in my opinion a great man but once his idea leaves him it becomes a monster.

It's laughable that you ignore the facts that more customers hate your products than any other and the treatment you give to those "self-loathing independents" is reprehensible. Instead of changing your business model you just come out with more products. Yeah that will really help. Little do you realize how totally confusing that is to your public. With the changing economy, Greed based businesses are on their way out and you will see Service based business will survive.

I would speculate that we have different styles of carpeting in US homes that provide more of a drag on the brush roll.   We also have lower voltage for our electronics.  I'll leave it to the "loathing independents" who fix vacuums regularly to use their expert knowledge to speculate why there are more problems with Dyson clutches here than abroad. 

Long before the "many self-loathing independents" in the USA even saw a dyson upright with a clutch and brush bar, Which? categorized dyson vacuums the most problematic and repair prone for 8 straight years.  Including a problematic hose connection on dyson upright vacuums that accounted for on average 20 percent of yearly dyson repairs.  I recall a now famous lawsuit for the latter in which dyson settled with a UK complainant with settlement terms that were veiled in confidentiality.

Carmine D.

I can't say it so much that "We Americans" have problems with the clutch, as the clutch has problems with American carpets.   The carpets are too thick and the machine's clutch would slip and ratchet.  Carmine has told the stories many times of his poor dog running for cover.

My question would be, why does it need a clutch in the first place?  

Well I'm in UK and have had a slight problem with clutch on a DC03 and DC04.  On the DC03, the knob wouldn't stay in the 'OFF' position so when using the knob would flip itself to the 'On' position all by itself.  Dyson replaced this and it appeared to be a problem with a few DC03's at the time having a 'loose' control knob.  The replacment on the DC03 would make the awful ratchet noise sometimes when reclining the machine for use, it would do it and then operate as normal for no apparant reason - Dyson say that the clutch wasn't 'set' properly in the factory was was too sensitive.  They changed it and it was ok.

The DC04 I bought had a noisy clutch that just wasn't neccessary,  I wasn't happy with it.  Dyson changed the clutch and it has been the same clutch now for 7 years without a problem!!   The only thing is that after a while the smooth belts loose tension so it doesn't make a ratchet noise when obstructed,  I have to makie sure I move the cleaner away from the obstruction quickly - this hardly happens.   So 7 years with the same clutch is very good.

I like the clutch system and don't see a problem with it as its not an extra motor to go wrong (not saying that it will though)  I just don't understand why Dyson didn't design it from the start with tooth belts and why they used smooth belts, I will never understand that.

DC18 wrote:  
1)  Interesting. 
2)  Over here some call this the "toe kick".        DIB

Just wrote:

Over the past century, we've gone from wooden floors with area rugs, to wall-to-wall carpeting, to a 50/50 split of wood and laminate...the clutch, by allowing users to shut off the brushroll, allows you to clean both, without requiring 2 separate cleaners.

Here in the USA, we are little backward.  We use a brush roll shut off rather than a $135 clutch.

Carmine D.

Just wrote:
In 1978 electrolux introduced the 1531 beast upright, the machine was given an  unlimited amount of money for R@D the machine had a clutch in it,The machine had a production run for only 2 years.It was deemed a disaster and absolute failure.

Just by thinking that if you throw money and time at  something its going to be innovative and sucessful in the market place is wishfull thinking.

The only thing innovative in vacuum land in something people can use.

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:

Well said, MOLE.  Does a hokey on a stick qualify?  Lot in use and the customers love them and use them daily.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine, as long as the consumer likes the motorized hoky thats all that matters,orecks are simple ,lite, clean good enough for %99.7 of the  owners,parts and repairs can be found  without making a road trip out of it,  Oreck has so many different price points from factory recons to the ultra, Its really  nice to see that oreck is surviving in this economic climate.

I will venture to say that ORECK has prospered because Dave and his family are real vacuum people,who have a passion for this business,sort of like Kirby,aerus/electrolux.

I would say that the TTI management dont even know how to use a vacuum cleaner,nevermind make one.

regards

MOLE

Hi MOLE:

ORECK is to the TTI Floorcare as old vacuum school is to new vacuum school.

Carmine D.

It not quite goodbye clutch just yet, well for the UK that is!  I called the UK DYson Helpline to get some info on the DC27.  There is no official launch date as yet, I was told later this year may be around June\July.  It 's an adaptation\evolved\updated version of the DC14 from customer feedback they had on the DC14.  Same as the DC14 was to the DC07!  I was told the vacuum still has the clutch (UK) and the filters are to be washed every 3 months like the DC24\DC25.  The only change is that of the U bend that connects the hose on the change over value as some customers found this got blocked with debris.  They have changed this and it is clear so you can see if it is blocked and there is a flap to open to remove the blockage instead of having to remove the U bend (The DC01 had this setup!).

DC18

Does anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? Look closely. It has a clutch knob and a the motorized brush on/off button next to the red power button. Photoshop mishap perhaps?

There was some confusion on this machine early on.  I have heard it is a great machine and indeed has a motorized brushroll.  Sams Club shows the DC27 with a motorized brushroll.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Here's the product's features from Sam's Club Web Site along with ONE [and only] product review dated December 28, 2008.

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=418376

Carmine D.

I am glad that they are doing away with the clutch.  I bought a used DC14 from Craig's List about a year ago, and the clutch clicks a little bit every time I use it.  Especially if I recline the handle after I've turned the machine on.  Very annoying, though it doesn't seem to affect performance.  I think it's an inane and unnecessary system and I'm glad to see it go.  Another motor with its own power switch would be so much better!

btw, does anyone know if Dyson is going to ever do a self-propelled?

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:

I thoroughly agree.  The clutch on dysons is a prime example of dyson overengineering at its extremest.  It adds an extra $135 of useless value to the product and passes it along at purchase and for repairs.  By scrubbing the clutch on USA dysons, if in fact it is scrubbed [still some conflicting reports], dyson is admitting the same.

Carmine D.

Vacuumfreeeke wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Not even close.  The clutch works as designed.  Chatter: varying carpeting is a moving target for the brushroll and difficult to get right and/or clutch wear after a few years.  The motorized brushroll is better for sure.  Additionally...  the motorized brushroll will lessen the likelihood of a Dyson owner wandering into a non-Dyson independent looking for a belt or clutch repair.  

$135 for clutch repair when it's a 10 minute repair and $20 part?  ...Like I said, Dyson has to do all he can to keep his users from setting foot in non-Dyson dealer shops.


DIB

If you look on the Dyson Canada Website it has the DC27 on there with a clutch!

DC18

DC18 wrote:
I'll be able to confirm the Canadian version either today or early next week (waiting for the order to arrive) but as I understand it the DC27 is a dual motor unit in Canada.  Just an observation but instead of assuming it's a clutch that we see, could it not be an on off switch for the brush motor instead?

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Be interesting to know if the Canadian version of the DC27 is clutchless.  I'm told the UK version does have the clutch setup.  Shame thought it would have a separate motor and better brushbar on the UK version!

DC18

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Sadly DIB, dyson in the UK/with one corporate office in Chicago, Illinois has no more success keeping present and former dyson owners from frequenting independent vacuum store owners/operators than it does policing all the USA retailers for its MAP policies.  It's an impossible task. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hence the ORECK business model is superior.

Carmine D.

Here's the parts diagram for the US DC27 models.  Naysayers note the complete lack of clutch, the separate brushbar motor is clearly visible. 

Hopefully this will clear things up once and for all (ahem, Carmine), though somehow I doubt it.  Either way, any arguing from here on out about the "clutch troubles" is pointless since it will no longer be an issue for US models.

Sorry MH- but thanks.  A picture may be worth 1000 words but seeing in person is believing.  Of course, once dyson updates its UK/USA Web Sites with the DC27, I'll be a believer.  No offense, sir.  But James carries more weight than you.  A stray picture[s] with no dyson annotations doesn't impress me as truthful and final.

Carmine D.

MH,

Thanks for the diagram!  Glad to see you back.

DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Why don't you drive over to your local Sam's Club and see for yourself?  Take a camera and post your findings.  Or you can look at the image url.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Excellent idea!   If I were not putting a new water softener unit in my daughter and son-in-law's house in the next hour, I probably would do just that.  In the meantime, I'm following the tragic reports coming from Binghamton NY. 

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Same sort of setup as the DC17 (US) Model! 

DC18

DC18 wrote:

Must say, I'm still puzzled.  Scrub the DC07 in the USA due to the faulty and useless clutch.  Ok, fine.  Then, scrub the DC14 in the USA for the faulty and useless clutch.  Fine again.  I'm with James on both moves.  But, then a supposed brand new dyson DC27 that is the same as the old DC17?  Just a new model number?  Why?  To be an exclusive model for Sam's Club?  A new model number?  Unless the DC17 is nearing the chopping block too.  I'll have to wait until dyson updates the USA Web Site and compare features for the two models.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I have said it before and I will repeat.  Dyson is following in Hoover's foor steps. Too many models.  Do not improve, simply change the model number.

HARDSELL wrote:

However, the huge difference is HOOVER vacuums are much less expensive [big box retail venue where model changes are more frequent], much better performers [per March 2009 Consumer Reports HOOVER has 7 of the 20 top uprights including the number 1 and 2 of the 10 top canns].  HOOVER vacuums have a longer production life for sales [read: parts and repairs].  Example:  Empower, Fold-away, Elite, TEMPO, WT's are years even decades into production.  Not true with your fave brand, if it still is dyson.  DC07, gone.  DC11, gone.  DC14, gone.  DC18, gone.  DC17?   

BTW, dyson eeked out the 13 th and 19th spot in uprights and 17th spot in canns according to the latest CR.  And the 19th rater is getting axed by dyson.  Why?  The useless $135 clutch.

Carmine D.

Just to confirm (Canada anyway), there is no clutch on the DC27. Separate brush motor controlled by a switch behind the ON/OFF.  New roller, much longer bristles.  Nice machine all in all.

Dusty

Dusty,

Besides the brushroll and motor, what are some of the key features Dyson reps are telling you of this machine?

How do you plan to sell it vice a DC17/14/07?

Thank you.
DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

That's basically all the Dyson reps have to say, for the most part it's up to us to figure selling points out.  Before anyone jumps on the Dyson reps btw, we have the same experience with most other brands...reps are paper pushers and only know what's in the brochure.

In our store this unit will replace the DC14, we've already dropped the DC07 as it's becoming a department store only model. The DC17 isn't available in Canada.

As far as new bits and pieces go, the floating head is now spring loaded assuring full contact with the flooring surface The ubend is now hinged so you can't lose it and is also clear so there is no need to remove it to check for a blockage.  Filter maintenance is every 3 months, washable hepa, washable pre-filter.

Dusty

Just curious Dusty.  You don't have to answer if you don't want to.  I'll understand.  Based on a previous post, I am under the impression that the DC27 models were ordered by you BEFORE you saw them.  Were these "forced" on you as a dyson dealer?  Of did you have an option to say yes/no to the DC27's? 

On your end, not having a DC07, kicked around here in the USA for $339 and DC14 sold here in the USA for $399 [before discounts] and the DC17 kicked around for $439 in the USA, I can see where the DC 27 would be a potential seller DEPENDING ON THE SELLING PRICE. 

Carmine D.

However in the USA with a $479 price tag for a DC27 and vacuum customers' access to the other dyson models [DC07, DC14, DC17] in the big box retail stores [both new and refurbs at half the price of new] which are much cheaper than the DC27, selling a DC27 becomes extremely difficult.  Unless the reatailers "kill" sales on DC07 and DC14 because of the useless clutches.  A very real possibility.  Framing DC27 sales in that light [don't want the clutch which costs an extra $139 and fails in/out of warranty] makes them a DC27 a better seller.  Especially if dyson customers are inclined trade up their dysons for clutchless models when the clutches go out.  Of course, by then customers may be so disenchanted with a $500 dyson in need of a repair for $130 that a new dyson is out of question [save for the 10 percent loyal dyson brand buyers].

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
We pick and choose  from any product line we sell.  If we were forced to carry anything we'd drop the line.  The DC27, based on the lack of clutch alone seemed to be a better choice to sell than either the 07 or the 14 machines so we had no problem bringing them in.

The DC07's will now be discount store only vacs, retails at $399.  The DC14's currently sell for 499 and the DC27 sells for $549. The DC25 which is by far our most popular machine sells for $599.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Same in the UK, the DC27 will replace the DC14 as that did the DC07.    Shame Dyson are not trying the separate motor for the brush bar in the UK on the DC27!

DC18

CarmineD wrote:

Good point. However, $479 is the price of the "Total Clean" model that comes with extra attachments like the mini turbine head and flex crevice tool. I believe that Dyson will introduce a base model "All-Floors" version of the DC27 that will start at $399; it certainly must be priced lower than $450 because that's the price of the DC17 All Floors model. Of course, for this to work, the DC07 and DC14 must be discontinued, or face serious price cuts because the DC27 would be in the same pricing category.

dusty wrote:

Thanks Dusty.  Those model prices are high vice US dyson market.  If I remember correctly, for $499 a TARGET store buyer this week can purchase a DC25 and receive a DC16 [free]. 

Carmine D.

iMacDaddy wrote:

Better point!  Looks like Sam's Club got first dibs [no offense DIB] on DC27 sales at $479.  Perhaps the appearance that even at that price it's a real deal despite the DC27 All Floors mass marketed at $399 soon.  Now there are 2 reviews on the Sam's Club page for a DC27.  One in Dec 2008.  Latest April 5, 2009.  Not a best seller? 

Even if DC07/14 are dropped in price and/or completely, the DC17 and DC27 will compete for sales.  So both would have to be comparably priced or one like the DC17 have to be sold for considerably less than the DC27 for both to be viable sellers in the market place.

Carmine D.

As the DC27 seems to be a replacement for the DC14 (well in the UK anyway), as we don't have the DC17 in the UK due to it being designed for the US market only, what are the differences between the DC17 and DC27 in the US?  They both are clutchless, the only main difference I know of is the DC17 has Root & Level 3 cyclone tecnology where as the DC27 only has root cyclone technology (well the UK one does).  So suely the DC27 in terms of technology is lower spec to the DC17?

DC18

dusty wrote:
Thank you Dusty!
Q:  I do not see the spring in the schematic Motorhead provided.  Is the spring controlling the Cleaner head assembly (pushing the entire assembly into the floor)?

Are you enjoying the “debate” here (DC22 thread) regarding maneuvering, and does maneuvering have a place (a paying market) in the vacuum cleaner industry?  Your offering up information that the steerable DC25 is the most desired of all Dyson’s in your store is telling and confirms what the Big Box stores have on their websites. - That the Dyson Ball line are huge sellers ("Most Popular").  I would think if folks could see how a 9” DC22 Motorhead nozzle can fit into, around, under beds, under furniture faster and easier than the 100 year old way...  that is - the left/right swing and up/down articulation only - then they would certainly garner much attention.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Your nose is growing by leaps and bounds DIB.  Most USA big box retailers can't sell the DC25 and have resorted to a DC16 giveaway with the purchase.  Both for $499.  Popular seller?  Your argument for a 9 inch P/N is convincingly funny.  Only you and dyson are buying it.  Not the VDTA and US consumers.  Small is small.  But tiny is too small.  You'd have us believe a baby vacuum with baby features is worth a $700-$800 MSRP and now that it is a time saving cleaner too!  Nice try.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
The spring is shown on the schematic, #8 on the left hand side.  From memory (I'm at home) I believe it was attached fro the body to the floating brush head.  By doing this it eliminates the problem the DC07 had with the sole plate not always making full contact with the floor.

Maneuvering definitely has a place in the vacuum industry.  I will agree that the Dyson pn is by far the most steerable, the Sebo shown isn't bad but pales in comparison to either the Wessell Werk or Riccar powerheads.  I'd give these two a close runner up to the Dyson. The Ball uprights certainly are maneuverable but the also aren't for everyone.  I have seen people with bad wrists or shoulders struggle with the steering aspect.  It would be nice to see Dyson bring the handle weight of these machines down a little bit, it would certainly make ease of use better.

As far as the DC22 nozzle goes, I can see where it would have it's fans and also it's detractors. In our area, where house prices have gone thru the roof the trend is toward condos which also means less square footage, tighter living areas and less storage.  Small machines are a good seller for us but there are still customers who want smaller and smaller with a powerhead would be even better.  We'll see what happens when the machines hit the market here and what price they come in at.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Ok, I gotta ask.  Just because you give away a hand vac with purchase (and it's on any Dyson over $499 btw) that means the vacuum isn't selling?  You know when you buy a Oreck Gold you get a $100 discount off the top followed buy a free $130 iron, 5 free tune ups worth $200 and a free cannister vacuum worth $199. So on a $500 dyson I get $150 worth of free product and on the $600 Oreck I get $630 worth of free product. If Dysons arent' selling based on a hand vac giveaway, Oreck must be getting ready to shut down completely.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Glad you asked Dusty.  First, TARGET and BEST BUY stores have/had the DC16 giveaway just with the DC25 ball model, so you are not completely correct.  This tells me dyson DC25 Ball is not selling at those retailers and the giveaway is a way to jump start sales.  Else the stores, which carry other dyson models, tho not sure for how long, would follow the "any dyson sale for $499" merits, as you mention.  I should add the DC16 is a dud by all accounts.  Too high a price.  Too short a run time.  So it's possible the giveaway is a way to also cull the retailer shelves of the DC16 inventory.

WRT ORECK.  Recall a certain dyson poster here always ridicules the brand for its giveaways [not you].  Since dyson took a page from ORECK's marketing play book, he's not said anything about dyson falling into the same marketing scheme.   BTW, HOOVER does now too!  Huge difference between ORECK and dyson ball giveaways.  First, ORECK's giveaways come with a purchase of as little as $299.  Always have.  It is a routine selling feature of ORECK.  Second, ORECK is a straight upright cleaner w/o on board tools [like dyon].  The companion compact canister supplements the cleaning team.   The iron/handcleaner/stick and other similar gift is icing on the cake to close the ORECK deal.  The higher priced ORECK's use the free tunes as a distinct selling feature.   Again, always have.  BTW, unlike dyson ORECK gives a free in home no obligation free trial of 30 days.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty, I would add that some users, like me, are not cann fans.  I and others prefer a lightweight upright/stick, like ORECK, to push and pull around for daily/quick use.  Not a cann with on board tools that I have to lug out and pull around with me throughout the cleaning effort.  I can use my ORECK on over 1500 square feet of mixed flooring coverings in 15 minutes [all one level].  I've used a tiny cann [granted w/o a P/N but a 9 inch rug/floor tool] and gave up after 30 minutes w/o the same grooming and cleaning on the rugs and a job not finished. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

                      XL $300           XL Silver $400        XL Gold $600         XL Platinum $800

Price Slashed                                      $50                       $100                          $200

Free Iron                                              $130                    $130                          $130

Hand Held          $150                            $150                   $200                         $250 

Tune ups                                                 $40                  $200                          $400

Net                      $150                           $30                   -$30                         -$180   

Recommended bags $40                      $40                     $50                            $50 (no upright bags included)

Back to                 $200                         $70                    $20                          -$130

Looks like Dyson still has profit left after free gift unlike Oreck.  I prefer on board tools as opposed to having to store then drag them out.  Not to mention having to lug a 5 lb hand held around. Dyson has always been returnable within 30 days due to store policies. 

Just observing the price slashing it seems as if Oreck took a page from Dyson.  Why all the slashing? Is Oreck having finance problems ?  I know their vacs are worth about $50.  If they could only get those ridiculous prices without the freebies they might be profitable.

CarmineD wrote:

If you deep cleaned it would take longer.  Then again deep cleaning with an Oreck is an oxymoron regardless of the time spent vacuuming.

Hello HS:  Haven't had your coffee yet, I see!

Lest you forget, Tom Oreck, CEO of ORECK, was the first vacuum industry Exec to make statements in January 2009 to the financial news networks on nationwide TV about ORECK 2008 sales.  Saying and I quote:  "ORECK fared better than most of the industry but not as well as we pedicted for 2008."  If lucky, lucky, dyson may publish its results earlier than Nov 2009 [legal requirment] for 2008.  And has made no public announcements about 2008 sales or if it has the results are so bad no dyson insiders here will post them.  Recall, the pound is down by 30 percent against the dollar and down against other EU currencies.  So the dyson numbers' wizards will be looking to fudge/spin to look good.   Have to wait to see how and by how much.

Talking about canns, when was the last time you lugged out your Rainbow?  What happened to that old Lux tank you use to own?  What do you own and use now?   

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

In fact, many retailers, after threats of legal action and suits by vacuum customers, have taken dysons back long after 30-60-90 days.  The reason in part, retailers are culling their dyson inventories in these bad times.  And so many dyson refurbs for sale.  And probably the reason in part the Dc07 and Dc14 are being scrubbed by dyson.  To many returns due to faulty clutch chatter.  Drives people and pets crazy.  Like scratching your nails over the chalk board.  Or a rake over the concrete.  Just gets under your skin.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Ol tom must be so profitable that he is trying to give orecks away.  Why else would he slash prices by 25%.  OTH, maybe he just needs cash flow. Fared better still may not mean good.

I do not use canns as you know.  I already told you I do not like to drag out the attachments.  The Lux has lonnnnng been gone.  I primarily use the Kirby although it is a pain in the rear.  It is similar to oreck because if not using simply as an upright.  I still like its cleaning power over oreck even though it is a pain.  I perfer deep cleaning as opposed to surface cleaning.

CarmineD wrote:
Does oreck trash all the returns.  That was not meant to be a funny, although I wonder how you trash what is trash.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

You never let me down...  can you document these "threats of legal action" and "suits by vacuum customers"?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

All you have to do is read some of the customer reviews for these dyson models.  It's all there.  Just have to look and read.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Me too.  ORECK documents its direct suction air flow and revolving speed of the brush roll [based on scientific measurements] of 102 MPH and 6500 RPM.  Plus, one of the largest paper bag capacities in the industry.  What's your fave brand's speeds?

Carmine D.

DIB:

You here yourself posted that dyson's clutch chatter [euphemism for gawdawful screeching noises] was a major reason for dyson returns.  You don't remember?  That and the fact that DC07 and DC14 models always fared poorly in Consumer Reports.  You said that too here.  So, tell me the reasons, other than these, for dyson scrubbing DC07/14 and the clutches.   

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
So you are only assuming that DC25's aren't selling because they have a free vac with the purchase. Shall we also assume that any item with something free attached to it also isn't selling? Can you show me somewhere that actually says that the DC25 is a bust?  I know you like numbers...me too.  I see the DC25 on many stores best selling lists (bestbuy, walmart).  My challenge to you would be to show me somewhere that shows it's gathering dust and not moving.  I've looked...I can't find anything.  I can only go by what I see and what I sell.  What can you show me?

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Yeah, where?  They’re your statements not mine.  So produce...

Can you demonstrate 10 such - "threats of legal action" and "suits by vacuum customers"?  Since Google has claimed 1 trillion pages indexed, surely 5 minutes researching will aid in the “bellying up” with a negligible 10 complaints out of 20 million Dyson’s sold.

Thanks in advance.

DIB

dusty wrote:

Not to highjack this thread but  the internet and ebay are killing the dyson dealers and box stores, Can you justify the 2 to 3 hundred dollar price difference between the legit dealers and the bootleggers on line?Dont give me the B.S. story about yours are first run machines and come with the factory warranty intact.

That story is getting real OLD,

I would say DYSON better start looking at $150.00 and under market,after all thats all any of their JUNK is really worth>>>>>>>>

regards

MOLE

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

Like the DC15 ball, which is a bust for sales, so is the DC24 and DC25.  Recall dyson dropped its price in the USA by $100 just a few months into its launch.  Sure retailers put the ball models at the top of their lists.  What exactly does that mean?  Explain it for me.  Do you really expect retailers to publicly say that the dyson ball models are THE WORSE SELLING DYSON MODELS THEY EVER CARRIED SAVE THE DC11?  If they were honest, perhaps.  But you know that retailers can't be honest and expect customers to buy new dysons, especially the ball models.  

I'm happy for you that the DC25 is good seller for you.  You are in a silent tiny minority of dyson ball fans.  I suspect for a limited number of vacuum buyers, if not given other options, the DC25 ball model is a likely seller.   DC24 ball is a terrible terrible vacuum.  Not worth the price [$399] w/wo the ball technology.   ORECK runs rings around it and over it.  DC24 gets the worse dyson ratings and rankings from Consumer Reports ever.   Let's see what happens when the DC25 comes up to bat.  If sales are lackluster now, after a CR rating/rank, if bad, they'll be dead in water.

Carmine D.

DIB:

If they are sooooooooooooooo good, tell me why the DC07/14 and the clutches are kaput!

Carmine D.

mole wrote:
Hiya MOLE,

I won't cast aspersions on the Dyson name but it and many other high-cost brands can definitely be found on eBay. Whatever the worth, people are not looking to get skinned in the attempt to have something decent.

Most of these are the genuine article -- meaning legally acquired -- and sold by reputable eBay vendors whose feedback can be easily checked in regard to customer satisfaction. That's good enough for me. If anything is in question, it's why I can't simply walk down the block and find the same priced as reasonably.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:  You made those statements here in writing about the clutch chatter/mediocre CR DC07 and DC14 ranks.  I don't have to produce evidence to change your mind.  Believe what you want to believe in your mind.  Doesn't change the facts.  DC07 and DC14 are finito.  Gone.  Sayonara on the tin guitar.  Dyson clutches on US models are gone with the wind.   You can believe these dyson models are the best on the planet in dyson's reportoire.  Butt even James himself would disagree with you.  Unless of course he pulled them and discontinued clutch usage because they are soooooooooooooo good. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Venson/MOLE:

As pointed out by several posters here, DC07 and DC14 prices are going to have to come crashing down [with their discontinuance] on the new/used vacuum market.  When their prices do, so will all the new/used dyson upright prices on the USA market.  Compounded by the bad economic conditions and lackluster sales.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

Dont you think its about time they come down to earth and come out of the denial that they been in?

Of course with the prices bottoming out,  the propoganda and fancy advertising will come thankfully to a end.

You got to admit they milked it and the public for all they could.

GOOD BY JIMMY/ AND D.I.B. go tell your story to the japanese..........

regards

mole

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

Truth be told, and sooner or later it is, dyson's best sales years in dollars and units were 2005/6.  Despite all the hullabaloo here since 2005/6 by dyson cheerleaders about the latest in vacuum features and technology [pause for a short period of guffaws and coughing]..........................................................., its been all down hill for James and dyson since.   Dyson is and always will be a niche player in the USA vacuum market, if it survives.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:
Dusty,

Let me take this one...  This is something I have studied for some time...

They're are two primary groups selling Dyson's on eBay...  1) Authorized dealers and 2) Thieves.  I have posted many police blotters, news - online stories, news - video and surveillance video detailing Dyson thefts.  Saying something over and over does not make it true, bellying up and proving-something-out makes it true.

DIB

dusty wrote:
Dusty,

Dyson Ball:
There are few products that are all things to all people for sure.  The Dyson Ball is a huge break-thru product that answers a problem other manufacturers *failed to answer.  And it turns better than anything on the planet!  I was told many times... the DC18 Slim sells itself.  The Slim commercial sold the vacuum and it never suctioned up a single thing.  People want better lives and Dyson delivered and is being rewarded monetarily.

FYI, Dyson has a patent application that addresses the inability for Dyson Ball vacuums to lay prone/near prone.  The patent does not claim any prone/near prone abilities but the illustrations do.  The stabilizer wheels collapse forward and out of the way.

DC22 steering:
I was challenged here to look closer at the DDM Motorhead nozzle.  After viewing video of the turning abilities, it is a winner and stands alone.  But, I have yet to see this Wessell Werk or Riccar powerheads, I’d like to see em, I’d appreciate it if could point me to an illustration, etc..

If this nozzle (9” to 11”) were place on other (less expensive) Dyson canisters I’d think they would sell very well based on the Slim and Dyson Ball sales.  I too, see this vacuum being desired by those in smaller homes, condos and apartments.

DC27:
I missed the spring.  Thank you.  I watched the DC14 and/or DC07 demonstrated on HSN long ago and knew then that the front of the nozzle lifted on the pull back stroke (after running the clip back frame-by-frame) not good for suctioning to say the least, although it maybe was due to a fast pulling back, but I’m not sure.  The spring is a cheap N fast fix.  The DC27 carrying handle looks like it’s the lowest in his full size category.  Now Dyson has 3 vacuums in 3 categories that can be carried easily/easier and/or carried upstairs easily/easier than before.


DIB

*  There are a few patents on so-called steerable, but the suffer with much NOTHING that reacts (nozzle reacts) in concert to wrist turn as the Dyson.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hi DIB

Interesting to hear Dyson is looking at the issue with the ball vacuums inability to lay prone!  Sounds interesting the stabilizer wheels collapse forward, look forward to seeing that invention!  Can the illustration be viewed?

Now the original DC01 used a rubber piece (very small) on the pivoting soleplate to make sure it said in contact with the floor!  Like an elastic band effect! I have to say the very first DC01 that didn't have a pivoting soleplate performed better I think in terms of cleaning performance! The pivoting soleplate on the DC01 was not seal so well as they are now so some of the suction was lost I think (from experience of both types).

DC18

Hello DC18,

Hey, your a fan of Sir James.  Why don't you install a TIFF Viewer plug-in [into] your browser (viewer is needed to view U.S. patents) and take a look at the many Dyson applications and many non-vacuums inventions too.  And post what you think is interesting.

I must clarify... the illustration shows a vacuum laying more prone than all his current vacuums, yet it looks like it could possibly can lay [fully] prone too.

www.acordex.com/browseProd/VTplugin.html

Here are his/his teams patent applications:  http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=dyson&FIELD1=AS&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PG01


DIB

CarmineD wrote: CarmineD wrote: DysonInventsBig wrote: CarmineD wrote: CarmineD wrote: Carmine,

Oh! what a tangled web you weave when first you practice to deceive!

At the end of the day...  You’ve got nothin. - No proof, no ability to prove, no willingness to prove.

Q:  Does Dyson have a clutch chatter problem on some carpetings and/or after many years of use?
A:  Yes.  And so what.  Return it if under 30 days, fix it if worn.

A:  Is the chatter problem nearly as big as you claim or attempt to lead others to believe?
A:  No.

Look around, you’re not in your store and you’re not having a private conversation with Little Miss Trusting customer.  Those days are gone!


DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Are you saying that the brush roll spinning at 6500 RPM is creating all the suction ? Speed and RPM do not reflect power. Power is more directly related to torque.  The tiny oreck motor would stall under a direct pulling force against the brush. Face it the brush doesn't suck.  Well maybe it does suck like the oreck's inability to deep clean and that ain't good.

You already told us that the oreck floats on the carpet. The brush is simply moving surface dirt since it doesn't go deep to pull the dirt up.

CarmineD wrote:  Like the DC15 ball, which is a bust for sales, so is the DC24 and DC25.  Recall dyson dropped its price in the USA by $100 just a few months into its launch.  Sure retailers put the ball models at the top of their lists.  What exactly does that mean?  Explain it for me.  Do you really expect retailers to publicly say that the dyson ball models are THE WORSE SELLING DYSON MODELS THEY EVER CARRIED SAVE THE DC11?  If they were honest, perhaps.  But you know that retailers can't be honest and expect customers to buy new dysons, especially the ball models.  

Are you creating a conspiracy theory here? I expect when I look at a best seller list from a reputable company that it is indeed what they sell most of.   Does the New York Times bestseller list really consist of poor selling books that nobody wants?  Does the Fortune 500 have people that are ranked at #800 but nobody wants to admit it? Why would a company go to all the trouble to include something on a best seller list that isn't selling?  If you're running a business don't you simply drop the line if it doesn't sell?  How many times have Best Buy and Target and Walmart re-ordered from Dyson?  Surely you're not suggesting they bought so many that they're still on the first batch...but when they're gone they'll never darken store shelves again.

CarmineD wrote: I'm happy for you that the DC25 is good seller for you.  You are in a silent tiny minority of dyson ball fans.

It's not about being a Dyson Ball fan, it's about you saying the DC25 isn't selling based on the fact they promo it with a DC16.  If this is just your opinion, please say so and it's end of discussion but if you have legitimate figures that state the DC25 is a huge flop and sells poorly please post them for all to read.  Personally I'd love to see sales figures from all companies but as much as I try, I can't really find anything.  I can only assume that you are in the know and have numbers based on your statement.  Share the wealth please.

Dusty

HARDSELL wrote:

NO, revolving brush speed [6500 RPM] is separate and distinct from the air flow direct suction of 102 miles per hour.

Recall, a lightweight Electrolux Intensity upright had more suction power [by 60 percent] with a full paper bag than an empty dyson DC14, according to the facts and findings of the ASA.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

A web of the facts.  Dyson clutches gone in the USA.  DC07 and DC14 discontinued by dyson period.  The number of refurbs for these models are sky high.  Prices for them are crashing down.  Consumer Reports has never rated/ranked a dyson clutch model in the top 10.  Ever.  Those are the facts.  

WRT your last statement, I quote Abraham Lincoln.  You can fool some of the people some of the time.  You can fool all of the people some of time.  But you can't fool all the people all the time.  Dyson's back is up against the wall.  The trusting clutch club of women who bought into dysons originally are now onto you.  Read the reviews on line.

Carmine D. 

DIB/Dusty:

Is this a conspiracy theory:  DC24 ball launched April 2008.  One of dyson's latest and greatest models.  [BTW, copied ORECK's lightweight upright vacuum from over 45 years ago].  Worst Consumer Reports vacuum rating/ranking of all previous dysons that are 6 plus years old and getting discontinued [for flaws and faults].  Companies are supposed to produce better products with experience, not worse.  So much for ball technology.  Let's see what CR says about the DC25.  We know what it said about the DC15 [btw that dyson ball model is gone too].  You know what CR said too.  You quoted it in regards to the DC25 as reasons for having detractors.   Ball technology for vacuums isn't impressing anyone [save you and DIB]!  Then song doesn't apply here: It takes two.  Not enough.

Carmine D.

BTW, DIB:  Tell us, please, how much did you pay for your DC15?  Was that $300, you said?  On a $600 MSRP dyson.  With customers like you, no wonder James' net worth is trending downward.  From $2B to $1B.  Oops.  Is that a conspiracy theory?

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

With my little edits then you have perfectly described the flaws of the gawdawful clutch and brush bar with screeching noises of DC07 and DC14's.  Congratulations.  You finally got it!  Now share with DIB.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
So  I can assume that you don't have any legitimate sales numbers to back up your statement that the DC25 is a poor seller and it was simply your opinion and not fact? 

Dusty

I believe that Carmine is providing his educated opinion, and it does seem plausible.   With the economy in the dumps, I would suspect that sales of high priced vacuums are down.  It is common for manufacturers to lower prices and/or offer enhancements like the handheld Dyson to spur sales.   Since Dyson does not release detailed sales information, only company insiders really know what the sales figures are.  There always seems to be a plentiful supply of refurbished Dysons for sale. 

I would also suspect that most Americans would be unhappy if they had to pay $130 bucks or so for a replacement clutch on a Dyson.   Most people who buy Dysons think they are getting a vacuum with no additional maintenance costs.   If the clutch replacements are a common problem, they Dyson can expect some serious backlash. 

So what is the life expectancy of the little brushroll motors on the Dysons, and what is the replacement cost including installation?  Can consumers expect to pay $150 every 5 years for a new motor?

Severus wrote:
There is nothing wrong with providing opinion, I just don't believe opinion should be offered up as fact.  I have asked nothing more of Carmine (whom I do enjoy sparring with) than he asks of anyone else here.  On many a post he has requested numbers as proof of a statement, I am simply asking the same. 

Dusty

Severus wrote:
Hi Severus,

A clutch and belt assy retails online for about $40.  The installation is performed in real time on youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_CtaFcc5HU) in just under 10 minutes.  In my area the labor charge for such a job would be 30-40 dollars.  Even if it was 50 dollars labor it would still be a $90 total repair. When people are buying Dirt Devils and Bissells at $200 a pop every two or three years, I don't see much of an issue with replacing a clutch after 5.  I know I certainly don't sell any brands that require no repairs after 5 years...doesn't matter if it's Riccar, Eureka, Sebo or whatever.  They all require something at some point.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
If I may interject here--

I've read several Dyson consumer reviews over the past 6 or 7 years since Dysons were brought over here, and either they are happy with their DC07s or DC14s, or do not like them and switch to another Dyson.  Yes, those are the same people who later on bought (and buy!) other cleaners in the lineup such as the DC17 and love them.  So the "trusting clutch club" has simply moved on to different Dysons for one reason alone: they like the concept of the cleaner!

-MH

HARDSELL wrote:
Exactly.  6500 RPM doesn't mean anything except how much dirt is whisked off of the surface (think high-speed carpet sweeper or power nozzle).  In fact I would be under the impression that higher brushroll RPMs would actually mean *less* deep cleaning ability, since it would be spinning too fast to dig deep into the carpet.  Perhaps that's where their claim of "floats on the carpet" came from.  And unless the brushroll was flat, a la Dyson or Vibra-Groomer I, it wouldn't create any airflow on its own. 

Speaking of which, one can remove the fan on a VGI-equipped Sanitaire, replace the pulley and reconnect the belt, and it will still have more airflow than an Oreck.

-MH

Hi Dusty,

Thanks for the URL. It was interesting to learn how the clutch change is done. Wish we had the actual companies offering more easily available information for repairs we could do ourselves.

Best,

Venson

Motorhead wrote:

Maybe Carmine adds nitrogen to the brush bar and the bag on his Oreck.  It is a maircle working gas.  Speaking of gas.  Carmine spews a lot of it.

Severus wrote:
dusty wrote:
Dusty:
It is a breath of fresh air hearing from Vacuum Cleaner Dealers with integrity.

Some time ago Carmine suggested HSN had conspired (with Dyson) some how/some way when they claimed to of sold 10,000 DC07 units as a Today’s Special.  The vac was a great bundle and price and people bought.  Let’s see... to date, Carmine believes HSN, Walmart, Best Buy, Target and Sears are all conspiring to “pump to dump” Dyson’s. - It makes for great entertainment.


DIB

Motorhead wrote:
Motorhead,

I have been told this flat (ribbon roll?) increases airflow and/or suction.
Q:  Do you know by how much (a percentage)?

Have you any info on the so-called Windtunnel Technologies.  This looks to be Hoovers biggest exclusive only to them marketable patent.
Q:  Does it work and by how much? 

Only an observation...  brushroll's spinning to fast to go deep reminds me of snowmobiles that can stay on the surface (float) and cross a body of water when driven at high rate of speed.


Thanks,
DIB

Dusty, et al.

Let me get to your questions and comments about best and popular sellers among retailers.  As Severus pointed out big box retailers are reporting the worst sales of consumer goods [like vacuums] in over 40 years.  You know that Circuit City stores are in bankruptcy and Linens-n-things in liquidation.  Other retailers are sure to follow.  This doesn't take into effect that many retailers, BEST BUY stores included, have added more product that is less expensive pricewise and culled more expensive goods from shelves as consumers traded down in price/budget of their buys.

Now to your question.  All retailers sort their brands and models by the selling price.  For vacuums, dyson has few to no others than its own brand that compete with it in the same price range.  So, for example, a DC25 Ball for $499 plus has no other brand competition.  If it sells one a week, month etc, it is by definition a "best and popular seller.'

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Facts are dyson discontinued the clutches in the USA and the DC07 and DC14.  Gone. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

A $90 plus repair is a hardsell for a couple with one or more breadwinners laidoff/unemployed.  These repairs often go unclaimed/undone.  And consumers in hard times trade down on a new vacuum purchase RATHER THAN REPAIR because is less expensive/disposable.  Vice trade up and trade in the old model and buying new at the same/higher price.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Actually what I said is that these TV sales use the same selling/marketing strategy that hawkers used in the old days in auction sales.  Plant shills who bid up the prices/product demand to give potential buyers a sense that they have to have/buy.  Does the name Bernie Madeoff come to mind!  The sales deception works better in good times than bad [like now]. 

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

By adding this brush speed to a lightweight 9 pounder that is easy and quick for all in the household to pull out daily and use, the surface dirt, which takes several days to imbed in the rug, is removed before any rug wear and damage from dirt results.  That's the beauty of ORECK!  Not to mention that ORECK is wonderful for grooming and pet hair on all floor surface coverings.  BAsta!  Consumer Reports and the Carpet and Rug Institute tell vacuum consumers so about ORECK-s and have for over 30 years.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I hear tell that nitrogen is infused in golf clubs/handles too now to assist players who otherwise can't make par do so!

Carmine D.

Severus wrote:

Thank you for saying so.  ALWAYS educated opinions.  With all my life, and I am rather old in the tooth, spent in and around the vacuum industry in some way, shape, and form that's alot of education and opinions.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hi DIB

Yeah I'm a fan of James Dyson!  Thanks for the links be interesting to see what may be in the pipeline!

DC18

Motorhead wrote:

Speaking of which, the ORECK's direct air flow speed measures 102 MPH.  Did I mention that already?  And thereason an Electrolux Intensity lightweight WITH A FULL BAG beats out the full size suction power of a DC14 by 60 percent!

Carmine D.

DC18 wrote:

Actually I am too a fan of James Dyson.  But not his products.  Sadly he never surrounded himself with persons who know and have experience in the vacuum industry.  The reason in part his financial fortune has gone from $2 BILLION in 2006 to $1 BILLION in 2008.  Still respectable but nonetheless a 50 percent drop in 2 years.  With most saying the worse is yet to come.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Dusty:

If you have facts to disprove my interpretation and perspective on best and popular sellers among retailers please provide here.  I'm all eyes and ears.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

It is based on the same theory as nitrogen in tires.  Take $ from those to stupid to know the difference.

HARDSELL wrote:

Nitrogen fill tires/refills are free unlike air pump machines!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hey, I'm all eyes an ears too....still waiting for something to show me the DC25 is a bust.  I can no more disprove your interpretation (and thanks for admitting you don't actually know) than you can prove it.  Rather than drag on I'll just let things drop.  I do wish however that the line between your opinion and what you can show as fact becomes a little clearer.

Dusty (who always suspected that IPods never sold..they're just best sellers because they're expensive) 

CarmineD wrote:

Stupid statements like yours prove my point.

Where can I get free nitrogen for my tires? I want to make my Smart car even lighter.

Hey Carmine,

Are you back on your “pump to dump” Dyson conspiracy kick again?  Remember when HSN said they sold 10,000 units of the DC07’s as a Todays Special.  You made it out be/made it sound...  that HSN and Dyson conspired.  So now your “pump to dump” Dyson conspiracy list grows...  HSN, Walmart, Best Buy and Sears.

The DC25 is doing pretty good/great (still) - this supports what Dusty is experiencing in his store - the DC25 sells well.



DIB

Walmart:  Vacuums and Floor Care > All Floor care > Top Seller

Best Buy:  Vacuums and Floor Care > [all] Upright Vacuums > Best Selling

Sears:  Vacuums and Floor Care > On front [lower half] of page  > Featured Items/Vacuums & Floor Care > Top Sellers
(Sears has no search filtering for "Best Selling", although Sears has "Top Sellers" listed on their front page of Vacuums and Floor Care).

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Here's the simple facts according to Forbes magazine [your fave source]:  2006  James' net worth: $2 BILLION;  2007  James' net worth: $1.6 BILLION; 2008  James' net worth:  $1BILLION  with no bonuses to management and several execs not drawing salaries;  2009 and beyond:  ????

Looks like dyson, James and the UK pound need an infusion of nitrogen to pump up sales and profits.

HAPPY EASTER!

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Facts are oftentimes difficult to understand and accept the first time around!    There is a true saying that you can't see the forest from the trees.   BTW, both are excellent sources of nitrogen [forest and trees].

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

 Dusty, DIB:

I explained based on fact to you that 'best and popular' seller is meaningless unless it is accompanied by more pertinent information.  A $499 plus dyson DC25 and/or $600 plus DC23 are lone vacuum models in their class by the big box retailers.  No other brands/models are sold in the big box retail store venues, save dyson, at those exorbitant prices.  One single solitary model sale per week, per month, per quarter [DC27 as Sam's Club] are dubbed 'best and popular' top seller for big box retailers.  Looks impressive to potential buyers.  Like the HSN sales number scams.  These are mere words and ploys to build a false perception of pent up demand.  Why?  To pump up the appearance of sales.  All meaningless dribble.   Good marketing and advertising strategies.  Has nothing to do with actual sales numbers.  That's the facts.

Carmine D.

The salespersons on HSN are very good - they could sell ice to Eskimos.  However, I believe Home Shopping also has a very generous return policy.   While it's impressive to sell a large number of vacuums in one day, one doesn't know how many of those vacuums are returned after the purchaser has time to reconsider the impulse buy. 

Certainly Dyson has had some success in selling $400 vacuums.  I'd be curious to know how the high end Electrolux vacuums are selling at Lowe's.   With Dyson's initial success in selling $400+ uprights, others are competing in that price range.   I was amazed to see Hoover's being offered at the $400 price point in Walmart.   I can't see consumers getting too excited about 9-inch wide power nozzles or cutesy steering mechanisms. 

Perhaps we see Miele $500-$600 upright vacuums at Best Buy or some other big box store in the near future. 

CarmineD wrote:

 Dusty, DIB:

I explained based on fact to you that 'best and popular' seller is meaningless unless it is accompanied by more pertinent information.  A $499 plus dyson DC25 and/or $600 plus DC23 are lone vacuum models in their class by the big box retailers.  No other brands/models are sold in the big box retail store venues, save dyson, at those exorbitant prices.  One single solitary model sale per week, per month, per quarter [DC27 as Sam's Club] are dubbed 'best and popular' top seller for big box retailers.  Looks impressive to potential buyers.  Like the HSN sales number scams.  These are mere words and ploys to build a false perception of pent up demand.  Why?  To pump up the appearance of sales.  All meaningless dribble.   Good marketing and advertising strategies.  Has nothing to do with actual sales numbers.  That's the facts.

Carmine D.

Good luck with the new bad-mouthing Dyson strategy...  That is - telling consumers to not trust what HSN, Walmart, Best Buy, Sears and/or Target says of Dyson sales, but instead trust the independent-troll who’s livelihood depends on bad-mouthing the [Dyson] competition.  That’s some funny stuff.

DIB

Hello Severus:

For the year ended Dec 31, 2008 HSN reported a financial loss of $2.4 BILLION dollars.  [Like most retailers, HSN is experiencing the worse economic times in its history].  HSN stock price is trading at $5 plus per share from a 52 week high [which is also depressed based on HSN historical stock price] of $16.

Carmine D.

At least one major retailer COSTCO, recently rated the best of all retailers by Consumer Reports, has the DC17 Total Clean for $399.

CarmineD wrote:
Thanks again Carmine -- They're throwing in three optional accessories too I noticed. There were three reviews posted on the Costco site and high scores were given by all.

Venson

Venson:

The DC17 to date is the best rated dyson upright consistently by Consumer Reports.  For the $399 price, w/o the gawdawful clutch in the defunct DC07 and DC14, the DC17 with the extras from COSTCO is the dyson upright to buy if one is so inclined. 

Carmine D.

The DC27 at SAM's Club Stores still shows just 2 product reviews, very good by the way, from Dec 2008 and April 2009.  While not the most pervasive of retailers, I would have expected more reviews by now based on past new dyson product launchs.  Especially among the dyson faithful.  Perhaps, the price [$469] is too steep for most, even the dyson faithful, in the current economic down turn.

I expect these new dyson models will make their way soon into other retailers and the prices will come down. 

Carmine D.

A couple of more reviews have been added to the Sam's Club DC27 profile. 

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=418376&pCatg=7247#reviews

Carmine D.

Thanks for the link Carmine (I think).

The DC27 is on the Dyson UK website.  Somewhat buried (what else is new/no link has been provided while viewing this vacuum @ the Online Store DC27 page) is a nice “Find Out More” page of the DC27.  There’s a pop-up video showing why Dyson LTD. does not use manual height settings.  Worth noting... Dyson is finally fighting back...  they use the TTI VAX Mach 7 to illustrate the downside to manual carpet height adjustment/the downside to owning the VAX Mach 7.

http://www.dyson.co.uk/technology/dc27Patents/default.asp

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

I excerpted this from the dyson link you provided on the DC27:

 "Auto carpet height adjustment:  Conventional cleaner heads have a limited number of height settings. Too low and the cleaner head plunges into the pile making it hard to push. Too high and suction just leaks away."

Based on the height adjustments on dyson's latest DC28, I have to conclude that dyson has mixed emotions and beliefs about the advantages and benefits of height adjustments.  Logically and realistically using a self adjusting dyson upright on a medium to high pile carpet leads to harder and heavier push/pull weight on the usres' arms and wrists.  Adding a adjustment [as in DC28] reduces the adverse affect on the users. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I have not used the DC28 as of yet.  With regards to push/pull weight...  I have never done any push/pull comparisons or measuring on differing carpets.  Logic suggests...  the wheels of a vac sink into the pile and this contributes a heavy/light feel when push/pulling a vacuum.  Logic suggests... measuring how much lift it takes to pull a floating nozzle off differing piles is a good starting point to determine if pile height (in general) makes any real difference to a push/pull feel (strength).  My guess is... the taller the pile, the less the nozzle grips the carpeting (air leaks thru the longer pile)...  and so, Dyson responded by inventing the DC28 nozzle assembly.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

Sorry to say but your guess is wrong. There is no lift for the so-called floating nozzle. It is just an excuse for not going for the expense of a formal height adjustment as it is meant to "ride" atop both low and high level pile. The best way to achieve that is by use of broad wheels or rollers to better distribute its weight over carpet pile. It's all in the numbers. The example is similar to breaking one stick easily but then attempting to break a bunch of sticks as a group. Wheels that are narrow easily sink into carpet pile. Wide rollers or collection of wheels or simply a wider wheel set fare better on high pile. This is not a new discovery.

The old-fashioned way, the nozzle actually being raised or lifted above the wheel-base to accommodate height is the better thing. Floating nozzles call for other actions. My Miele S7 uses lesser suction delivery at the floorhead to ensure easier pushing san a height adjustment. (This is true and can be tested.) The point best proved is that an aggressive brushroll and some but not all a vacuums air power can take you a long way.

Needless to say, I am totally taken aback by your interest in the DC28 because it barely has a swivel to its name.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

On deeper carpets, the vacuum's wheels sink lower into the rug pile.  In turn, the self-adjusting floatation nozzle sinks deeper into the carpets.  Result: The brush roll meets with more rug resistance making it more difficult to revolve.  In turn, the vacuum is harder to push and pull on deep carpets.  Result: The heavier/harder is the push pull weight on the users' arms and wrists during vacuum operations.  One likely solution employed by the vacuum industry for many years, and now even dyson on its latest DC28, is a rug height adjustment.  The general design and fuction of most adjustments is to rasie and lower the height of the rug nozzle to compensate for rug thicknesses.  In dyson's case, the rug adjustments raise and lower the brush roll inside the nozzle accordingly to allow easier push and pull on the users for deep carpets.  Either way, the effect of a rug adjustment is to maximize cleaning performance by the vacuum and minimize the efforts of the users to achieve it.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB

I can see why Dyson may not have put the DC27 on the main part of the home page as it just an improved DC14, there is no brand new technology on it just improvements over the DC14. I've seen the base model in the shops it slightly less taller than the DC14 and the bin handle is lower and smaller in diameter to the DC14. I can say it has a 1400 watt motor not 1300 as some websites say as i checked the serial number plate on the display model! Although the airwatts are lower to the DC14! Air seals are better around the bin. Same brush bar\roll as the DC14 if not slightly bigger with slightly more turfs of brushes! I'm yet to test this machine to see what it is like.

DC18

Dyson's DC27, a Sams' Club exclusive, now has 5 reviews [wow].  Been on the market since October 2008, or 10 months.  It gets just a tad more than 4 stars, typical for dysons.  About 80 percent positive.  $479 for the Total Clean. 

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=418376#reviews

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hoover Fusion has been on the market at least 3 years and gets 8 reviews. It fell short of the "tad over the 4th star".  .

Fusion has 5 perfect stars = 67%.  Dyson had 4 perfect stars=80%.

If memory serves me correctly you tauted the Fusion at Sams as being the Dyson killer.  Wow 8 reviews for this slayer!!!!!!!!!!

Other Hoovers get 1 star of no review.  Your criterion shows that these are either pith poor or not selling.  Hard to believe huh?

Right HS:  HOOVER Fusion $100 dyson $500.  Good comparison!  If you insist on irrelevant comparisons try the HOOVER TEMPO for $80 for its stars/reviews.  Almost 1000 with 4.5 stars. 

Here's an excerpt my good dyson friend.  A meaningful review and analysis. I've owned several and still do. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Remember Carmine.  When Fusion came on the market you predicted that it would be the end of Dyson.  WM and Sam's alone would sell so these and Dyson would sink.  3 years later and Both sell Dyson. Did I mention that in 3 years the Fusion gets 8 reviews.  What a seller.  Now the Whisper is trying the same thing as Fusion.  No listing on Sam's for the Whisper.  If you do not want Dyson compared to you cheapos why do you constantly bring them up and then squak about ythe price difference.  In fact you predicted that the $119 Fusion would unseat Dyson.  Since it didn't you blame cost.  LOL.  What next?

The Tempo scores no better than Dyson on Amazon.  In fact Dyson has a fraction better score.  It seems that most Tempo users were wanting a cheap vac and are satisfied for the performance AT THE COST.  Most Tempo owners woukl be happy with any vac in their double wides.

It also looks like Tempo and Dyson scores superior to the Orecks on Amazon.  And to think those Orecks reach $800 or 5 times the cost of Tempo.

They are coming to take you away haha, haha.

The Hoover has lot's of reviews on HSN... 3.4 out of 5 stars

Fusion

Hi Ace:

3.4 stars is not too shabby for $100 bagless vacuum.  This was, no longer made, a TTI sourced vacuum at the time, with the HOOVER brand.  A precursor to the fact that TTI woul eventually make a bid for HOOVER when part of the Whirlpool tutelage.

HS:

You and your dyson brethren can't get over the fact that in 2005 the HOOVER Fusion KO'ed dyson in all the Wal*Mart stores and kept dysons out for 2 years, until James came groveling back.  A $100 contender whupped a $500 supposed champ!  Cream of the crap.

Carmine D.

Carmine, something good much be happening with Dyson... They now aren't just letting anyone sell there vacuum's like they did before... Even I was turned down after I took a couple of year off selling them and I sold a few "600" just through my website...

Acerone wrote:

Hello Ace:

You are and have always been a big supporter of all things dyson and one of the first to sell them here in the USA.  If you are preempted from selling dyson now because you took a sabbatical from sales for awhile, I can't/don't see that as something good for dyson.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HS:

The only thing dyson beat was the money out of the people who bought dysons.  Like flushing $500 down the toilet. 

Interesting the pricing disagreement that got dyson kicked out of W*M for 2 years.  In 2003, W*M had an exclusive dyson called the All Carpets with an MSRP for $359.  [No clutch].  On sale W*M typically sold for $309-$319.  When the exclusive contract expired, W*M starting selling the DC07 All Floors with an MSRP of $379.  Not selling in 2004/5, W*M lowered the price to the $319 [the selling price of the All Carpet].  James and dyson had a hissy fit and cried like a baby.  W*M having already contracted with HOOVER for a 2 year deal with HOOVER Fusion in the Spring of 2005 told Sir James to take all the unsold DC07's back with REFUNDS to W*M.  James did.  A boat load.  James dumped them on BEST BUY stores.  BB took over 4 years to get rid of them.  In 2007, James grovelled to W*M and begged W*M to take dysons back in.  Had to pull some management strings to get the deal done.  No exclusives tho since with W*M.  In fall 2008, the smaller Sam's Club, took on the DC27 as an exclusive discussed in this thread.  They are selling like Jim Beam bourbon to Mormons at the Temple in Salt Lake City.  5 reviews in almost 10 months.  Wow.  HOOVER Fusion was one of W*M's most popular vacuum sellers of all times.  Even the dyson insider/rep who used to post here, Matt mmc/Airblade, fessed up to that fact on several occasions here.  

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Thanks for confessing up that you exagerated in your original statement about Fusion keeping Dyson out of WM for 2 years when the real reason was a pricing disagreement as I stated.

We already established that 5 reviews in 10 months is more positive that 8 reviews in 24 + months.  We also established that Dyson beat Fusion ratings.

I would expect the $119 vac to sell more units than the $300 + vac at WM.  Does Timex sell more watches than Rolex?  Would most of the Timex owners buy Rolex if they were the same price.  It is difficult for WM shoppers to justify a $350 vac for their double wide. Mud flaps, hunting equipment and beer are more important to WM shoppers.

Big diff HS:

Both watches tell time the same but timex watches don't sell for rolex prices.  Overcharging for mediocre performance [dyson] doesn't make it a better performer [than HOOVER Fusion].

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

And lets not forget.....Takes a lick'n....keeps on Tick'n........@1/20 th the cost......same end result....they tell u the time.

Except with all the leftover money you can have alot of dinner and movie nights....with the ''other''you get to sit home and look at it..while watching a HSN

dyson demo gone oh sooooo wrong.

turtle1

retardturtle1 wrote:

For sure 'turtle1'

Duson Dave can't make the pitch that the new and improved dyson for $600 gets more of the deep down dirt and then not provide proof for the promise!  People see through this as sales puffing.  You can get by with a $40 swivel vac and some sales puffing like it works for 45 minutes on a charge.  But for $ 6 C notes, you have to show something definite, not just car names [cam, torque] and promises.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hi carmine.....just me i guess. but i thought you practiced before you went on t.v [infomercial ] so that when you went on t.v

you looked like or at least seemed as if you knew or had an idea of what you were doing....this would at least be an attempt  to justify the massive price.

dyson coulda learned alot from BILLY MAYES.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

BILLY MAYES has enthusiam and zeal for his products.  Dyson Dave is 25 minutes of dull and boring.  An effort to watch.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HARDSELL wrote:

You did not answer questions 1 and 2.  I understand why. That would add substance to my statement about cheaper vacs selling better at WM.

retard, Hoover is like the Timex.  It took a lickin from Dyson.  Dyson is still tickin.  Hoover had to be rescued.

HARDSELL wrote:

H.S...dbl wide-beer- mudflaps....you forgot the sofa on the front porch..dueling banjos off in the distance ...hahaha good one.....but i seriously doubt time/watches  or a vacuum have a place way back in that neck of the woods.......  i saw DELIVERANCE........not good.

yet the comp  produces a vac/vacs  that excells where dyson cant....hasnt beat them....same quality better perf at  a far better price....while keeping it simple.

dyson has complicated the simple....evident in his prices....sometimes simple just works better ,

retardturtle1 wrote:
Can you be specific?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

I'd be happy to.  The clutch on the DC07 and 14.  How's that for a start.  Note your own editorial comment in the thread.  Surely you must agree, yes?

There is a wonderful word in the English language: KISS.  We know it has ameaning as an acronym: Keep it simple stupid.  Sir James with all his high paid engineers and lawyers doesn't get it.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

More dyson bull shine.  If you haven't noticed HS, Wal*Mart stores sell all the top name and brand electronics and more than BEST BUY stores.  People are savvy consumers.  Give them the best for the price and they'll buy from any retailer regardless of the ambiance and location.  You just like to make excuses for W*M and now add K-Mart scrubbing dyson from the shelves because they don't sell, period.  More work to keep them dusted.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
You think small and your thinking is limited.  Your focus is based on what you know... swapping parts out.  Dyson’s focus was about putting more dirt and debris inside his clear bin and fine dust collection tube more than any other clear bin competitor on the planet.  Dyson is the worlds leader at accomplishing this.

You've been lying about and/or over exaggerating the cost to replace DC07 belts and/or clutches for years.  You've got a creditability problem.


DIB

My my DIB, alittle uptight are you?  Clutch problems cost $100-$135 for repairs.  Per dyson.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
The clutch wholesales for $19.  It's a 10-15 minute or so job to complete.  Can you belly up with Dyson documentation supporting your repair claimed numbers?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Yes, I called and asked dyson what it costs to fix a clutch not under warranty.  The tech line told me $100-$135.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

If you knew anything about electronics you would know that WM sells the low end of brand names and BB sells low to high end of those brands.

As for audio they offer low end HTIB systems and the very low end of only one brand of receiver.  No stand alone amps or speakers worthy of mention.

A lot of shoppers THINK Bose is high end.  That should tell you how savy they are.  OTH you likely think they are high end also. 

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

You have a gripe with W*M because it dumped your fave brand.  That simple.  You praise BB because it came to James' rescue when he needed an oulet to dump all the DC07's that he took back from W*M.  W*M out sells BB every year.  BB is not even a close second.  That's the reason James grovelled to W*M to get dyson back in.

Carmine D.

HS:

In case you missed the news, here it is again.

Here's the rankings by retailer and PROFIT for 2008:

1. Wal*Mart                    $405.6 B
2. Kroger                         $76B
3. COSTCO                    $72.5B
4. Home Depot              $71.3B
5. TARGET                       $64.9B
6. Walgreen's                 $59B
7. CVS CAremark          $49B
8. Lowes                          $48.2B
9. SEARS HOLDING     $46.8B
10. BEST BUY                    $45B

It takes 9 years of business profits by BB to equal one year of W*M.  No wonder James grovelled to W*M to get in.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

sure DIB....i see those cyclones  and all the little chambers as places or bins for dust to build as it always has when taken totally apart.not just on dyson but on all bagless......no matter who makes it. nasty bin to empty ... buildup over time starts to stink..and does get by the filters , suction goes down...way down.
..yes its supposed to get blown away once you use it again...but it doesnt...and this is evident in the very dark nasty colored  water when you soak them to loosen up the build up..for a flush out.    although im a fan of the floating head [ riccar-panasonic ] a height ajustment with a little  weight  at the b-roll cover is better...and far cheaper than a clutch system.  the ball is a waste...an added expense..wheels do fine. just alot of stuff to complicate the simple.

so maybe im simple minded....but  all that dyson does can be done by many at a far more affordable price. yes im partial to a bag vacuum. ..will never see a bagless as an asset..dont care who makes it ... no need for all the bells and whistles....its a vacuum.  just means more to go wrong...more money to fix. on-off switch....thats it.   you asked so i answered....my take on it...and some customers points of view that i agree with. im not speaking for the masses...but an honest opinion...point of view.

retardturtle1 wrote:

Hello 'turtle1'

DIB doesn't understand honesty and integrity.  Those words are not part of his vocabulary.  DIB and the fave company tell lies that they can't and won't back up with proof.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You made the comment about electronics, not me.  I simply responded.  What the hell does that have to do with Dyson at WM or BB? 

Anyone with intelligence knows that WM and BB should not be compared in total revenues.  Totallly different markets.  BB sells better quality electronics than WM.  Plain and simple.  You should be more diverse with your knowledge. 

Dyson is not a mainstream seller HS, as you and others say.  That's the point.  If it were it, and its not, it would be selling at the big box retailers like W*M and BEST BUY.  Dysons are not selling enough to warrant in store shelf space.  Ask your retailers' staff if you know them well enough to be honest with you.  Like K-Mart, dyson will in short order if he doesn't reinvent his company and products and lower their prices, be relegated to on-line sales, just like the re-formatted dyson ball barrow.  

Carmine D.

BTW HS, tell Stores Magazine, a retail industry authority, that BEST BUY and W*M stores should not be compared.  They do it every year and are the retail industry standard for it.  I was referencing and quoting their findings and results for 2008.

Carmine D.

In fact HS, BEST BUY Stores and W*M are competitors for electronics sales and vie for the lead position every year in sales.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Which store do you buy your mid to higher end televisions and home theater audio equipment from?