Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

One thing I find strange about the DC22: we've had it in Britain for quite a while now, and ZERO mention has been made of the DDM; not on the cleaner itself, or its packaging, not in television or print advertising, and not on the DC22 section of Dyson's UK website. The only mention I've found of the DDM so far is on the 'Inside Dyson' section of the website; in the section about the DDM itself, it mentions that it's used by the DC22.

A friend of mine works in an independent electrical store, which sells many brands of cleaner - when he was visited recently by the Dyson Rep, he asked her about this point, and she had no idea that the DC22 used the DDM!

Why are Dyson not making more of this innovation?!

I'm interested to hear the US version will have a powernozzle...our Allergy version comes with the mini FlatOut straight-suction head, and the Animal with the compact clean-air Turbine Head:

Model2,

The DDM is not in your country.  I believe this DC22 is a dealer exclusive here in the U.S.

What are your thoughts on “No Loss of Suction [for up to 7 years]”?

DIB

Carmine,

What, no comment?  Are you unimpressed with the filtration abilities of the DC22?

DIB

That would explain it then! Although nobody's yet managed to explain to me this Argos catalogue page from about 2 years ago...Notice it includes the DDM as one of it's features; if what you're saying is correct, we don't have, and have never had, a UK market cleaner which uses the DDM. So why were Dyson using it as a selling point for the DC08? Isn't it rather misleading?

I haven't yet had a chance to try out the DC22, so I can't really comment on the filter-wash period. It's a big claim; I hope it lives up to it! If it does, I hope we see the technology used on the rest of Dyson's range. It would go a long way to improving ease of use!

Since you asked here's my answer.  It takes more to impress me than it does you.

Carmine D.

You BOZOS still dont get it.DDM,FILTERS, BAGLESS, BAGGED, The attachments are what makes the cleaner work

Heres a little clue for you ,you got to get the power to the ground,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:

Thanks for that groundbreaking insight.

Model2 wrote:
Your welcome.

IT looks like its time to start stocking up on dc22, parts of course we will have to order them 6 months in advance  so the dyson minions will have the trolls make them  in that red country that uses slave labor.
Lets see wand clips,canister rear wheels,powerhead elbows wand wires,cords and cordwinder parts,front castors, hose handles,brush rollers and dont forget the agitator bearings that last about 4 months, and O yeah the famous dyson timing belt,

Please tell me if i missed anything............

regards

MOLE

Model2 wrote: I've seen DC22 adverts w/ PN's (Motorheads) advertised in the UK, when it is not the case.  I do not believe it's intentional, but rather a [graphic artist] mistake.  Agreed, it is a "big claim".  I would add it's a huge statement and a huge advantage over the entire [global] industry.        DIB 

I'm in the UK and I've never seen the DC22 shown with a Motorhead - could you post a pic here? I've only seen the DC22 shown with these two Turbine Heads:

 This one's the one it's shown with on the Dyson site - same as the one used on the DC12

 This is the one used in most of the press photos of the DC22

< I've seen this image used on a UK retailers web site.  I cannot remember which retailer used it.        DIB

mole wrote:
Not one DDM DC22 has been sold here in the U.S. and you have it falling apart already. 

DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Pretty impressed with collection bag technology are we?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

I think it's amazon.co.uk who have used those pictures, and possibly some others - that's what threw me. Since the specifications were correctly described as 'Turbine head', I assumed this was a new design! Looking closer, I see you're right, it is a powernozzle.

 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Since you ask, yes I am.  The reason in part all the top tier vacuums [not over-priced] here and abroad use quality paper/cloth bags like allergen, HEPA, and 3M.  Are you? 

Carmine D.

By the way, how does the UK's Dyson 23 fit into the picture?

http://www.dyson.co.uk/store/product.asp?product=DC23-MOTORHEAD

Thanks,

Venson

Venson wrote:

It's very similar to the DC21 Motorhead, but about £50 cheaper, and better designed. It also has the Core Separator, which the DC21 doesn't. However, the DC21 is still the premium-priced product. I don't really understand why! Dyson pricing can be confusing; for instance, in electrical, electronic and white-goods store Currys, they're selling the last of the remaining DC15 Animals for £390, but offering the DC25 Animal - similar product but better in every way - for £299! Go figure....

I think Dyson are falling into the trap Hoover did in the 1970s of making their line-ups way too complicated. Britain doesn't need 2 Motorhead models, especially as powernozzle canisters have never, never been big sellers in the UK.

(As I wrote this, I glanced out the window to see our next-door neighbour cleaning her car with a DC20 Allergy!)

Interesting developments. At long last Dyson introduce a visual change filter indicator. In theory this means the user can completely forget about the filter and the vac will give constant performance for many years until it finally demands attention. This overcomes what must surely be their no1 support problem – people blissfully unaware that the filter requires semi-regular, manual checking. Anyone know if the DC22 in Japan had this visual light feature – I don’t think it’s been mentioned until now.

The DDM is extremely powerful, but is it any less noisy? Previously on the DDM models in Japan they’ve had to add adjustable power settings for this reason. The ‘phone home’ feature from the original DDM DC12 is still missing from these cleaners? It looks that way.  

I wonder price these models will retail for? Dyson have previously resisted launching any DDM cleaners in the western markets, as the relative price was though to be prohibitive. Apparently, they were waiting until they could bring down the DDM component price to a level competitive with the carbon-based motors. People generally have less money than in years gone by, so hoping they’ve got their sums right. But either way, it’ll be wringing out more exposure for the Dyson publicity machine.

Maybe they’re hoping that the motorhead + DDM will ‘clean up’ in the CR canister tests?

M00seUK wrote:
Hi M00seUK,

I'm not so sure about that. Following is a link to the DC22's user guide in PDF form.

http://www.dyson.co.uk/support/help.asp?article=32

Please note that this single manual is supplied online for both the UK's "Allergy (straight suction)" and "Animal (comes with power nozzle" versions of the DC22. Please also note that per this manual filter cleaning is recommended every month.

Best,

Venson

Looks like it may do:

Don't forget, the Dyson Constant Max commercial upright had a filter-wash overdue indicator:

Hi Model2,

By the way -- thanks for the mention of the Argos online catalog. I like tracking European product to aid in learning what's coming from where AND who. It's also great to get continuing enlightenment in regard to what manufacturers are offering and what buyers outside the U.S. appear to be going for.

There's a bunch of online vendors that I'm sure I don't have on my list. If you happen to think of some that you know of, please PM me when you a moment.

Best,

Venson

 

A question for anyone who knows and is willing to share the answer here:  If I'm looking at the front of this P/N, which way does the revolving brush turn during normal operations:  Towards me and away from the user and the vacuum?  Or, away from me and toward the user and the vacuum?  Thanks in advance for the consideration/answer to my question. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

The rear of the brushroll turns upwards, away from the carpet, if that makes sense. Same as in a Hoover, for example. The only machines I'm aware of which used a brush-roll which revolved in the opposite direction were the Singer R-series, Premier Grand, General Electric Model 111 and the Apex Model 35/Vactric Airflo of the 1930s. The advantage this offered was that you could vacuum right to the very edge of an area rug, without it being pulled into the nozzle of the machine.

Forgive the rough illustration!

With the brushroll turning back toward the user (counterclockwise if you look the brushroll turn from the side) it more easily flicks dirt and debris into the airstream. Its running in reverse would also effect ease of pushing.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Talking and thinking about old collection bag technologies (including the 10 yr. old 3M Filtrete), I find quite boring.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Really?  How illogical and inconsistent for you to say that after all your interest and inquiries into 100 old vacuum inventors and inventions. 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

My sentiments too. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Not at all.  Celebrating the birth of invention and their inventors is a recognition not a recommendation.  I would not recommend using antiquated products or methods when [better] newer products and methods are available.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

As I recall, most of the best filter paper bag/cloth technologies are newer than dyson's bagless cyclonic vacuum technology.  Dyson literature claims it's technology dates back 30 years.  Granted that dyson's bagless products and its less expensive knock-offs were in some [small/large] part responsible for the better and more innovative bagged technologies that are available and marketed now in the vacuum industry.  But that is true of all product innovations and refinements.  Competition is a wonderful incentive for making consumer products better and less expensive.   Doesn't sound boring at all.  Quite the opposite.  Business leaders applying the latest and greatest in scientific technology to make consumer household products better, less costly, more user friendly, less time consuming, and environmentally more healthy and friendly.

Carmine D.

The DDM is not new as the DC27 is not.  Just a rehash.  Dyson, for the first time in its launch here in the USA, has not intro'ed any new products for 2009.  Can anyone read between the lines?

Carmine D.

Radical inventions come much easier for Dyson LTD than for it’s rivals.  Tomorrow the U.S. will see more of the same...  more radical inventions and problem solving solutions that are exclusive only to its inventors... to Dyson.

DIB

Not to diminish the importance of new household products, this year's VDTA has a more added emphasis on parts, supplies, cleaning products, and specialty household floor and rug cleaning products [including central vacuums] than past years.

Carmine D.

The DDM DC22 is going to be a dealer exclusive.  The VDTA is an obvious choice.

DIB

Any word on pricing? If this model costs as much as the DC23, or even more, my interest in this model will completely diminish. I will pay around $500-$600 for it, given it is to the DC23 what the DC24 is to the DC25: an ultra-compact vacuum cleaner. There's no way that I would pay $700-$1000 for this tiny thing, even with it's brushless DDM and 7 year filter maintenance intervals.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

The big question is: Will the US vacuum dealers embrace it or not?

Carmine D.

So....If the "LIFETIME" Hepa filter lasts about 2 years how long will the 7 year filter last?

Here's an agenda for the VDTA:

Seminar Schedule
    Wednesday, March 11, 2009
    Thursday, March 12, 2009
    Friday, March 13, 2009
    Saturday, March 14, 2009
    Schedule at-a-glance

Carmine D.

• Exclusive:  Patented [88,000 RPM] Dyson Digital Motor, very powerful!, unique and strong sounding.  Should/could last a lifetime.
• Exclusive:  Little or possibly no pre-filter maintenance if bin is emptied as recommended.
• Exclusive:  Patented Telescopic Wand:  Lightweight, plastic, very strong.
• Exclusive:  Filtration - Core + Root Technology, w/ 21 high efficiency cyclones.
• Motor burn out:  If airflow is cut off, if pre-filter clogs (prematurely or after many, many years of use) - motor shuts down and a signal light illuminates.
• Size:  Small, DC05 - like.  Compacts down via the patented TW.
• Controls:  In handle, power on/off, hi/lo speeds, brush on/off.
• Turbo Nozzle:  Resilient, due to the powerful DDM's suction.
  
• Retail:  PN - $799.  Sold exclusively through independent Dyson dealers where the vacuum can be properly demonstrated and it’s benefits explained.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

When you say 'small, DC05-like', the DC05 was just a standard-size canister...less bulky than the DC02, but not as compact as the DC08/DC08T. The DC22 is only 2/3rds the size of a full-size model, like the DC24 compared to the DC25. I'm actually surprised they're selling this model in the US at all - and that's one heck of a pricetag! I hope the US market feels it's getting enough 'suck for it's buck'...

I have a DC05 and would say it is compact compared to the original DC02 and later models DC08\DC08TW, DC19\DC20 and DC21.  The hose deoesn't wrap again the wand is not as compact but it is smaller and lighter.  That was I believe one of the specifications behind the DC05, compact!

DC18

DC18 wrote:
At the time the DC05 was sold, it was Dyson's only canister in the range, wasn't it? What I mean is, the DC22 comes in a line-up of 5(?) canisters, and is the smallest of the lot. I think, although I have not compared the two side-by-side, smaller than the DC05?

It's...  small.

http://www.english.dyson.cn/store/product.asp?product=DC22-ORIGIN&spotlight=spec

I'm confused...how can those 'Turbinehead' models have 'fingertip brush control'?

Wow, switching to the Japanese site...the Japanese have the option of the DC22 DDM Motorhead, the DC22 Motorhead (without the DDM), the DC22 DDM Turbinehead, the DC22 Turbinehead (without the DDM), AND the DC12 Plus Turbinehead (presumably with the DDM?).

What a headache! Why so many similar models?!

Here are some nice shots...
http://shop.earlyadopter.co.kr/front/productdetail.php?productcode=002001000000000004

DysonInventsBig wrote:

I couldn't get that link to work, but if you put in http://shop.earlyadopter.co.kr/  , then enter 'DC22' into the search bar, it takes you to the pictures. Great photos btw - I wish all sites were as well-illustrated as that! No matter I can't read Korean (??), I can tell what's going on!

This year's VDTA so far has gotten no local TV coverage.  First time in recent years that this is the case.  Tho, forecasts say 4,000 attendeees are expected, I think they missed the mark by quite abit.  Several persons I know who in the past got tickets from their local employers to scope out the VDTA didn't this year.  No doubt a result of money and perk cutbacks, down sizing and the current economic hard times.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Sorry if I can't buy into this "Benefit....(Lie/Fable?". How long will this be EXCLUSIVE to dealers? before Wallyworld & QVC & Internet Whorehouses hold up a carrot and Dyson sells them (the dealers) out? Like most executive decisions they come TOO late. As far as getting back in favor with the Independent Dealer, the backbone of the industry, I'm pretty sure that horse has LONG left the barn. Unless they can almost guarantee VERY large markups I doubt dealers will respond after getting burned so badly.

If Dyson ever wants a business model of how a company can be run with dignity, honor and respect for it's agents and customers, they should look into Tacony/Riccar/Simplicity.

Model2 wrote:

I know what you mean.  The DC02 was still on the market I believe when the DC05 was launched and was phased out during the early part of the DC05 life. Yes the DC22 is the smallest of all the current Dyson canister range.  Mind you it not that much smaller than the DC23 having seen both side by side! The bin is small and having seen it in a shop with dust and dirt in it there is not much room for the dirt and air to spin around unlike the DC24 but I know the DC22 has the core technology with the root technology which tales up a bit of the room.  Not having seen the DC05 and DC22 together I would say they are about the same size, the DC05 being a bit longer in length!

DC18

So when you say a "DC05-type Motorhead" will be featured with the US DC22, that means it's a different design (for the US) that will differ from the JDM version, right?

The American consumers are starting   to take notice again where cleaners are being made , WHO DOES MY MONEY GO TO ? .

The american public has woken up and are buying smart again, THE WORM IS TURNING, THE BOXERS ARE LEAVING AND CLOSING UP AND THE INDYS ARE THRIVING AGAIN [AS IT SHOULD BE]

This is what we tell our customers DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY, JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET YOUR MONEYS WORTH.

Does dyson give people their moneys worth?

Could any of you Dyson people justify the cost of your products?? No answer i figured so..

regards

MOLE

After Bernie got life for scamming people out of $61 billion, I was wondering what his business associates in the UK, where he laundered the money, would do.  I have the answer.  Selling $900 dyson canisters in the Japanese market.  Should be a marriage of people and product made in vacuum heaven.

Carmine D.

iMacDaddy wrote:
iMacDaddy,

I do not want to mislead...  I am only a Dyson enthusiast.  I have no additional information on the nozzle as of yet.

DIB

mole wrote:
You answered incorrectly for me.  I could justify the price of my DC07.  I could not justify $800 for the Oreck broom nor could I justify the $400 for a new Hoover.  I also could not justify $700 for a german vac that has a hose that does not last 1 year.

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi Hardsell,

I get your point but all the votes aren't in yet. My S7 is doing just great and I have had no problem with the hose as of yet. We won't know for at least another four to six months if this will prove a major point of complaint by consumers.

I would note, present economy in mind, I have no sense of assuredness as to the S7 moving on to be a big seller not because of quality issues but because it is expensive. Nonetheless, I have been a staunch canister lover for many years and this specific vacuum is about the only upright I consider a good alternative --at least for me.

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

That price was "free" and you sold the DC07 after 2 years to buy a Royal Eminence, justifiably.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Also as of now, no newsaper coverage.  Perhaps in today's paper?  After I peruse, I'll know.

Carmine D.

Nothing written, nothing aired, nothing discussed, nothing shared.  By all media measures the 2009 VDTA is a bust.  Perhaps ORECK, with 3 stores in Vegas and another planned, was prescient by passing it up this year.

Carmine D.

The DC22 Turbinehead ($699) is now being sold by at least one indie store online. The Motorhead version ($799) will start shipping on April 6th.

More info:

• The DC22 Turbinehead will be an independent dealer exclusive.

• The DC22 Motorhead will be sold through mass retailers nationwide, as well as on the Dyson website beginning in April.

Power ratings

• DC21 - 220 air watts

• DC22 - 230 air watts

• DC23 - 220 air watts

iMacDaddy wrote:
Another useless Turbo for us to sell and make good on for disappointed customers.....WOW thanks for the bone!

Lucky1 wrote:

Do you sell Dyson?

MacDaddy wrote:
Lucky1 wrote:
Are you a Dyson dealer?

It’s my understanding turbo nozzle vacuums sell well where hard surfaces make up the greater percentage of the home.

The DDM’s 80,000 rpm motor is very powerful and pulls lots of air... hence the 5-7 years until pre-filter cleaning.  Likewise, a Dyson turbo nozzle [vacuum] married with the DDM should prove "best in class" and/or eclipse all other [turbo] nozzles.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

A powered nozzle of any kind is not necessary for large or small expanses of bare floor. A plain old bare floor tool does just nicely. Generally, air-turbine nozzles are great at making impressive noise but not much else. They are usually sold by demoing them with yours, mine and everyone's favorite substance -- kapok -- which really wows a crowd as it ever so easily whooshed up.

The usual air-driven turbine nozzle has a narrow air inlet in the brush chamber that leads directly to the turbine blades. The inlet is deliberately made narrow so that it intensifies the air stream that enters the turbine area to allow more force against the blades. The fly in the ointment here is that these devices require constant airflow to keep the brushroll running at a decent speed. To accomplish this vents are place in spots to allow air to enter the nozzle above floor level. (Without the vents they stall easily.) Yes the brushroll spins nicely but suction at floor level, where it's needed most, is sacrificed. Thus, "deep cleaning" is not possible.

The only turbine nozzles I've seen that might be of some worth are the rather large type used with central vac systems. Their turbines are large and act as flywheels whose inertial energy is used to enhance strength of motion. These of course are powered by central vacs which have much higher airflow and suction strength than a regular household vacuum.

Electric power nozzle only need one form of power to drive their brushrolls and suction delivery does not have to be double-tasked or compromised. This allows for far more effective brushroll designs and results in far better cleaning ability.

Venson

Venson,

Thanks for the central vac info, etc.

Agreed, large hard surfaces are vacuumed by floor tools, and for some the turbo nozzle is a secondary tool.  And is a less expensive alternative to the Motorhead.

It is my understanding turbo nozzles are popular in humid climates here in the U.S. and popular in Europe, Japan, etc., although I do not have those numbers.  The turbo nozzle typically is a dog, we will have to wait and see how the DDM married to a turbo nozzle performs.  Yes suction is sacrificed and is typically not “the way to go”, but we are not talking of the antique any longer...  we are talking of the worlds only 5 to 7 years until pre-filter cleaning vacuum, powered by a digital motor - the DDM DC22.  The “air-leak” or the air dedicated to drive the turbo nozzle is a “plus” for the cyclonic’s (more/fast air, the better it filters).  The air-leak can be offset by the nozzles opening but we will have to wait and see.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB, you're concentrating too much on form over function and may be also be missing the point as you have someone to come in and clean. I like your cleaning lady want to get tackle the job and get with the sense there has been real accomplishment for the effort. The mechanics of whatever is going on inside my vacuum is not half as important to me as what is going on at floor level. Spin the dirt bounce or mash it, whatever -- I want a clean result for my effort. Power is not necessarily an issue in that case. There have been vacuums that excel at getting and helping keep households clean at no more than 500 watts power usage.

By the way, the marriage of a high-powered vacuum and a turbo nozzle has already been tried (Black & Decker VN1400P). The cleaner has phenomenal suction but the does nothing spectacular on carpeting. I know because I bought one. However, it only took $200 to learn my mistake.

When you get a chance to check out one of these new Dysons I'd wager that your gong to find soft long brush tufts that allow for easy turns of the brush roll while in use. Not helpful. As well, air leaks don't help in that agitation and good suction are needed to bring up as much of the trampled in grit and dirt in carpeting as possible.

A digital motor means little to me unless due to it I can have the trade-off of greater collection capacity (meaning less frequent emptying) and anticipate longer motor life. As for filters, 5 to 7 years filter life without cleaning has yet to be seen. REgarding this too I'd bet there'll be a good number in back in the shop for repairs. There is no way to universally gauge what's going to work user by user.

For the price being asked, Dyson could easily afford to supply an electric power nozzle and be done with it. The purpose of a PN is to allow a canister to make the effectiveness and efficiency of an upright vacuum. Dabbling in between is a waste of the consumer's time and money. I'd have far less to say about this if we were only talking about an expense of $300 or so.

Venson

PS -- Do me a favor. Some time tonight check out your carpeted high traffic areas at home. Just get down on the floor and use your thumbs or fingers to separate the pile here and there to see what's at the base of the carpet's tufts. If there is a lot of grit and dirt down there -- not so good. If little is found then things are pretty much okay. Doing okay is what's the fuss is all about.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

I'd say your observation of DIB is true across the board of dyson's products to date.  And the proof is in the rug, as you pointedly make.

Carmine D.

Lucky1 wrote:

Now heres a guy thats looking out for his customers,It sounds like he's in it for the long run,He will do well for himself,and live a long and happy life,

Im looking at a start up company, its called VAC-SU$K - A LOT.

Anyone notice the Halos on E-BAY for 69.95......HA,HA,HA,..........

regards

mole

mole wrote:

Hello MOLE:

But when they need parts and service, ORECK's the only one that's got them.  He who laughs last..............

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote: Venson wrote:
Venson,

Dyson is simply answering and entering the established Miele w/ turbo nozzle niche.  The Motorhead answers and enters the established Miele w/ power nozzle niche.

Pay high dollar for old or expired ip or buy something that is a quantum leap, far superior and provable science.  The better science is indeed the selling features, benefits and what separates itself from tired - same-old-thing so-called technology...  the sack, brushroll and motor that are common place in the industry (industry standard).  I expect Dyson to put a hurt on Miele.

The DDM DC22 no cleaning the pre-filter until year 2014-2016 is a [great] guiltless up-sale because folks are paying for superior intellectual property.  The DC22‘s (turbo or pn’s) benefits require no conning from independents.

I think “sincere Dyson Dealers” should print out Dyson’s DDM and Root + Core patents and then the Miele patents that related to pulling, filtering and storing dust and debris.  The Miele is tired and can be demonstrated via it’s patents and lack of [measurable/better science] patents/ aka in the public domain [available to all mfgs.] patents.  Hype vice better science/user beneit ip.

Dealers can easily can set up a Hoover Tempo in their shops and slap on a 3M bag and say the Miele filters no better than the cheap-o.  For that matter the other hyped vacuums can be demonstrated that way too.


DIB

P.S.  In due time the consumer magazines will judge and get the DC22 DDM's benefit-message out.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

Miele really has no business trying to gull the public with turbo-nozzles either and it was not my intention to have it thought I was making exception in even the slightest way. I've tried Miele's turbo-nozzle and feel they are not worth the time and money.

As for demos, they don't mean much to thinking buyers. You throw a bunch of junk on top of rug and and the vacuum sucks it. That doesn't really tell the weekly vacuumer how much worked in grit and dirt "X" machine will pull out of the rug at home.

Shoppers go for what they like. There are five Dyson uprights that have recently been rated by Consumer Reports and all only get high ratings for bare floor cleaning and emissions. Ratings for carpet cleaning, pet hair removal -- save for one model -- and tool suction weren't exceptional. On the basis of that, Dyson is a machine I would not buy BUT when you read through user reviews the larger part of the owners think they're just fantastic. This also applies to several other brands that I personally see as impractical or poor performers.

This same unswayed customer solidarity prevails with Kirby, Aerus/Electrolux, Rainbow and bunch of other very highly priced vacuums. To be fair I took time to go through ratings for Dyson and Miele canisters by way of CR test for this March

MIELE

S5280 -- carpet/good; bare floor/excellent; tool airflow/very good; noise/very good; emissions/excellent; handling/good; pet hair/good (Overall score: 66)

S251 -- carpet/good; bare floor/excellent; tool airflow/good; noise/very good; emissions/excellent; handling/good; pet hair/very good (Overall score: 65)

S514 -- carpet/good; bare floor/excellent; tool airflow/very good; noise/very good; emissions/excellent; handling/good; pet hair/good (Overall score: 62)


DYSON

DC23 - carpet/good; bare floor/excellent; tool airflow/very good; noise/good; emissions/excellent; handling/fair; pet hair/very good (Overall score: 60)

DC21 - carpet/good; bare floor/excellent; tool airflow/very good; noise/good; emissions/excellent; handling/fair; pet hair/good (Overall score: 59)

There are slight differences by way of performance but from my viewpoint performance averages out to be about the same. There's nothing about Dyson, cyclones and all, that particularly sets its product apart from Miele's bagged machine. I still maintain it's all about function and not form.

Venson

Venson wrote:

5 points for handling.  Another CR way to rank as they see fit.

HARDSELL wrote:
Must of tested it on a road race coarse. It must be all wheel drive, with Konis at the 4 corners.

How foolish C.R. can be.

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:
Probably nitrogen in the tires.

Ha, ha, ha. What I was trying to point out is that the performance of these tested cleaners, whether Dyson and its cyclonics or Miele's plain old bags, was just about the same. Anyway . . .

Handling has taken on importance. Maybe due to the Dyson pitch regarding the "Ball" uprights, maybe not. In any event, an upright that's easy to guide around things or a canister that can be easily moved along without getting hung up on furniture or door jambs as you work ain't bad. Ease in attaching or removing cleaning tools is as much an issue as ease of emptying. All those factors may mean how often an owner takes a vacuum out of the closet.

But lest I digress -- it's still about what happens at rug level.

Venson

Venson wrote:

Venson,

My comments were directed at Clown Reports.  I would not direct negative comment at a gentleman.  Other than mole you are the gentleman in the crowd.  And Dusty.

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

You never did get an answer to your question about what's left in the rug after vacuuming and looking.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

And I thought we were friends?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I value your friendship.  Friends do not have to be gentlemen.

Bernard Madoff subscribed to the same philosophy and made off  with $60 BILLION of his best friends and family members' hard earned money!

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Venson,

I “get” that you do not prefer the turbo nozzle on appliances.  But there is a demand and for Dyson to enter this “demand” (however large or small) and go toe to toe with Miele (who I believe is the current market [niche] leader) is smart and good business.  I would hope Dyson dealers would know who is/is not a good match for a turbo nozzle.

$679 Miele’s Turbo Nozzle canister @ Miele USA online
vs.
$699 Dyson Turbo Nozzle canister.

Hands down... the Dyson DDM DC22 is a far better technology and performing vacuum (filtering, computerized/fast/robust/super powerful/lifetime? motor and a turbo nozzle that does not slow due to [sack] suction loss) and value (no replacement sack costs and no hassle factor - purchasing bags from a dealer).


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

I also get the gist of, "Well, everybody's doin' it," but Miele should not actually be a major for issue Dyson. Miele's pricing is high and in the real world those who spring way out of budget to acquire one have usually given it careful thought. By the way, why would Dyson be interested in "small demands" now?

It's manufacturers of decent power-team canisters and uprights that sell for $400 or less that Dyson should have greater concern about. People are beginning to catch on and probably will catch on even more speedily by living in an economy challenged society. Per report of a sales rep at a local big box store, the Dysons there are being picked up by shoppers who come in with Dyson in mind. Other shoppers come in take a look at the price tags and end up leaving with far less expensive vacuums.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
That has yet to be shown.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Why would anyone want a turbo nozzle for hard surfaces?  I have never used a vacuum that did well on hard surfaces with the brush engaged. They are best used on upholstery or difficult to reach locations that are carpeted. 

Unless JD has an ego problem why offer a useless tool simply for competition with another brand.

Hardsell,

Homes with lots of hard surface area...  The hard surface tool is the primary tool, the turbo tool is a secondary tool (used on area rugs or low pile).  Some rugs cannot handle a powerful brushroll.  Many in Europe, Japan etc. use vacuums w/ turbo brushes.

Do not let the Dyson bad-mouthers distort who Dyson is...  a good man.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Then one of the plain old combi tools (rug/floor nozzle) should do just fine. For years, area rugs and low pile carpeting fared quite well in households where all there was was just a straight vacuum. Besides which, a vacuum with a PN only requires a speed reduction or opening a bleed valve to to lessen the problem of cleaning small or light rugs. However, due to its lower efficiency a turbo tool might be the answer as to what to clean a delicate "oriental" rug with.

Have you checked out the inflated prices on turbo nozzles? A Miele turbo nozzle can go for $130. Its mini turbo tool sells for about $70. Generic tools like this sell as low as $15 to $20. Dyson is no different in that is ask about $100 for its car cleaning kit -- a small turbo-nozzle and a crevice tool. Somebody's being had. Dealers may or may not choose up camps regarding turbos tools as they don't do harm even though they do little good.

As for turbo-tools in Europe and Japan, during my internet browsing over the years, electric power nozzles are not often offered with canister vacs though regular uprights are on the market. Also after having spent about four and a half years in Europe (Germany, Sweden, Holland, Denmark and beyond), seeing a canister vacuum with anything other than a straight-suction floor nozzle, usually the combination type, is my recall. For what reason the so-called power-team canister is not more common, I do not know but they do things a lot differently.

I have a friend who lived in Munich whose automatic clothes washer heated the water it used. The only connection required was to the cold water line. Many homes and apartments used instant water heaters (usually gas fired) not the big tanked affairs we buy and that cost us a good amount by holding and keeping water hot when it is not needed. I would assume that for some reason no provision might somehow have something to do with some perception of better economy.

Venson

Venson

I'm not too sure how well this machine is going to perform in this market, and I'm afraid we may have another "DC11" flop on our hands. First of all, this machine is perhaps too small for where it is priced at. The debris capacity is dismal, and I would advise people that have pets to steer clear of it; constant emptying of the clear bin would be a problem for them. Second, the plastic telescope wand looks lower quality compared to the aluminum wand used with the DC21 and DC23. I just don't understand why the DC12 uses an aluminum wand, while the DC22 uses all plastic (and they're both similarly sized machines in the same market segment). Third, I really wish they would have used the motorhead from the DC21 and DC23 with the DC22. The motorhead that will come with the DC22 uses a small brush roll spun by a small canned motor at around 3,000 rpm, which I feel will not be good enough for that little brush to properly groom carpet. This motorhead may do a fair job at surface cleaning, but it's certainly not capable of deep cleaning, which is what really matters. My DC23's motorhead picks up plenty of sand from my carpet with its stiff bristled brush roll driven by a large torquey motor; I could care less if its heavy and loud, it works!

Also, with it's DDM motor, the DC22 is not vastly more powerful than its full sized siblings. Both the DC21 and DC23 are rated at 220 air watts, while the DC22 DDM is rated at 230.....that's nothing to brag about. I was expecting to see atleast 280+.

The machine may have features that I would like to see on the DC21 and DC23 such as handle mounted controls, the brushless motor, and extremely long filter cleaning intervals. However, I would not compromise cleaning performance, debris capacity, and materials used just to obtain those features. Also, at $800, that is going to be a tough sell in my opinion. I feel that $500 for the turbine head, and $600 for the Motorhead model would be a far more suitable price points that would allow it to enter the mass market with little resistance. But at $700 and $800 respectively, Dyson has a rather undesirable product with prices that are only suitable for independent dealers. Mass retailers already carry $600 Dysons. However, I see little to no chance of any of them carrying an $800 DC22. I'm going to predict that Dyson will try to sell this thing to the "green crowd", noting how the DDM inside it expels zero carbon emissions. Other than that, I really don't see how the typical consumer would go for the DC22 over a DC21 or DC23, especially if they were to see all three of them lined up together in person. The DDM would really benefit more in their high volume sellers, not just their little niche models. I would rather see a DC21/DC23, DC17, DC25, and DC27 with the DDM over the DC22. I don't really give a damn how tiny my vacuum is, or how light it is, I just want something that can clean carpets well and run efficiently.

Hi iMacDaddy,

I'm glad someone sees the issue -- which is making and selling vacuums as opposed to novelty items. The thing is really too small and I can't think of it being useful except in the smallest of apartments. What I have longed to see is a bagless vacuum that has dust collection capacity equal to bagged machines and that also affords the luxury of using the cleaner for a few cleanings before having to empty.

Venson

iMacDaddy wrote:

At $800-$900, it has to perform as good if not better than the less expensive popular canister brands on the market today AND have a little something more to attract buyers.

BTW, any buzz from the VDTA on DDC22 reception?  Haven't heard/read a word about it!  Notta, save what is here.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I clearly posted at the top of my thread/this page that the [Motorhead] price point was $799.  Who told you or where did you see the DC22 selling for $900?        DIB

Novelty?  The 1) Science of - No Loss of Suction until year 2014-2016 is a novelty?  And the  2) Convenience of - no cleaning the pre-filter until year 2014-2016 is too a novelty?  Dyson is the Chuck Yeager/Bell X-1 of vacuums manufacturers...  he destroyed and blew past an “impossible” 100 year old barrier...  no clogging, no [hassle] pre-filter maintenance for 5-7 years. - No one comes close to this accomplishment!  Once again Sir James and the Dyson team out-invented the many global, deep pocketed, powerful and monster sized corporations.

Again, the DDM DC22 is going up against the Miele, which at its core offers nothing more than what the canister herd offers... no exclusive measurable technologies that prove it has superior lifting, suctioning and storing/filtering abilities.  Miele, like many use off the shelf technologies and designs.  And Miele owners have the privilege of driving to their dealer to spend their money on replacement sacks.

Frequent bin emptying is a none issue for many.  Watch HSN and listen to the Dyson owners call in and give their “Dyson testimonies”... the frequent bin empties = much dust and debris being vacuumed.  Frequent bin emptying is the downside to successfully suctioning up much dust and debris and no pre-filter cleaning and no loss of suction for 5-7 years.  Frequent bin empties is far better than slaving to the Miele sack replacement and its costs.

The plastic wand is very strong.

Dyson airwatts vice sack vacuums airwatts...  suck up a 1 or 2 cups of dust (slowly) and the difference is measurable. - Dyson’s do not choke, the sack does.  This is well known in the dealer and collector circles, only they won’t demonstrate it.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Until it's marketed, prices are just in a range not a given.  The point is for this price range [$700-$900], it has to meet/best the competition's performance [not just MIELE] and something else a step above to attract buyers.  So far, mum's the word from the VDTA on this dyson save some discussion here.

Carmine D. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hiya DIB,

When you shrink a vacuum down to thimble size it's a novelty and not practical for households of decent size. Would you put a mini TV in your living for the whole family to watch. No -- I don't think. Why? The size isn't practical.

I have used and owned plenty of vacuums that can whoosh up a a couple cups of dust and then some. It's not worth having one if it can't.

Best,

Venson

Venson,

I own the DC05 and love the small size (it's small size makes it easy to pull and is less prone to crashing into furniture/walls).  And because it only takes 1-1 1/2 minutes to remove the bin and to empty, the small[er] capacity is a non-issue.  I can out maneuver any upright (and the DC21) with the DC05, I expect the DDM DC22's to maneuver the same.

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Excuse me DIB and Venson for chiming in here, but this last statement/observation begs the question that inquiring vacuum minds want to know:  Is it "science' and/or "mechanics"  and/or both that allow a thimble sized cann vacuum to out manuever a larger, heavier, bulkier full-sized upright vacuum?  I can attest to the fact.  I have a $50 HOOVER [made in China] cann that is pint sized and it goes everywhere and anywhere that my full sized uprights can't.  And the small bag holds alot of dirt before the bag indicator goes on.  Amazing!

Carmine D. 

Venson

I disgree.  I have had a Dyson DC03 which has a small bin and a DC05 which I no longer use.  Both these machines were small,  the DC03 being extreamly slim, it could lay flat to the floor and vacuum under tables (unlike Dyson uprights today) the DC05 is wonderfully light and easy to move around furniture and up the stairs and is very capable cleaner for the european home.  I did not find myself having to keep emptying the machine as the dust level is kept at a reasonable level in my house (my Dyson DC04 needs emptying every 3 months or so), 

I hope Dyson keeps on developing small machines and I think it is a real shame that Dyson does not sell the Dyson DC26 in the UK!  I think it will do very well in some of the small flats in London (a DC26 would be perfect for my frieds very small North London flat)

The only thing I don't agree on is that Dyson have these other seemingly normal sized Dyson the DC14 and DC25 for example have a chasis that is similar in size to my DC04 and these machines have such a small bin capacity, when I look at the bin it seems like most of the space is kept for the shroud where the space could be used a bit more for more dirt to collect.  I looked at the DC22 - why is there such a small space for the dirt, the shroud is so big!  My Dyson DC05 is very small but there is quite a bit of space for the dirt to collect.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

A:  Neither.  It’s just smarter than some of the clumsy bloated nozzles that are on the market.  I only through in some benefits of the small sized DC22 - on the “Beat on Dyson DDM DC22 day”.  I hope it was okay to contribute?


Q:  The $50 cheapie you mention...  is it not true it filters [mechanically] exactly like every sacked clogNchoke vacuum on the planet, including the euro so-called exotic’s?

DIB

bucks03 wrote:

Again, chiming in here, pardon me.  If dyson goes the 'petite' vacuum route, and it may carve this vacuum market as a niche, the question becomes the best marketing venue and countries for sales.  I don't see the USA big box retailers having a huge consumer demand for these vacuums at $700, $800, and $900 a pop.  Nor do I see independent vacuum store owners/operators, who typically sell the main stream full sized vacuums save the smaller mid-class RICCAR/Simplicity line of canns.  Clearly  'specialty' cleaners like the DDM DC22 at high prices are not the main stream retailer products for stores and dealers.

Strange as it sounds, the DDM DC22 would be a perfect partner with a lightweight upright in a 'power team' duo.  But and its a big one, the marketing venue.  ORECK has the lock on this sales combo and HOOVER is in it now too.  Is there time and place for a dyson duo?   

Carmine D.

Hi Bucks03,

This particular cleaner's diminutive size may well be of great use to people dwelling in one or two room apartments and I have already said that. However, on our respective sides of the sea, spending as much as the suggested price will not prove an enticement or much of a choice for many people who simply can't afford it. Studio and one bedroom apartments are abundant but costly AND nothing -- at least most of the time in New York -- is included so gas and electricity plus all the other usual expenses don't leave much room for dropping $800 on a vacuum. It being we literally have people crawling over each other to land a job these days this vacuum due to price and size is going to be a slow mover.

Also in regard to size, cleaning habits are not the same individual to individual. If you want to hedge your bets as a manufacturer its better to put a mid-sized vacuum. Not too large, not too small and subsequently the better deal for the person living in a studio or the person living la vida delicioso with three or four bedrooms, etc.

Many busy people can get well beyond a week before they get to thinking about serious vacuuming -- especially if it's a chore they don't have much of a liking for. A machine with capacity that alleviates the bother of frequent emptying is not a bad thing. I have duly noted your mention that you empty your Dyson less frequently but that practice is not recommended by the cleaner's maker and thus may be grounds for a warranty void. For my purposes this machine would not be a boon. If it is for you, I think that's great.

DIB,

We started out with small PNs when the trend began. Matter of fact, I think the largest was the el-shaped model that Kenmore included with a deluxe canister it made in the very late 1950s. Other vacuum brands like Whirlpool, later Compact, and Filter Queens very first PNs were barely more than 10 inches across. The idea of wider cleaning swaths that brought PNs to 14-, sometimes 15-inches, was done to speed up clean by allowing a wider cleaning path.

Sorry, I was taught to clean not to play. There's far more to do in one's cleaning day than just vacuum. Vacuums that are too big, too small or too complicated are all hindrances.

Venson

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Firstly, expressing a contrary opinion to yours is not "beat on dyson day."  It's call exchange of diverse vacuum opinions.

Second, I have owned and used my pint sized HOOVER since August 2007.  I use genuine HOOVER filter bags at about $2 a pop.  No upgrades.  Since it has a 'full-bag indicator" I use the feature to tell me when to replace the bag.  I've used this mighty pint sized vacuum to clean up an assorted plethora of household and garage clean up jobs.  It fits perfectly on the paint can platform of my Werner ladder and consequently gets alot of horrendous jobs in side and out.  Love the cord-winder on it too.  No cord to hassle with in transport.  The two filters, pre and post, both washable and reusable, are still in pristine condition.  Unbelievable.  Even the bag compartment is remarkably clean during bag changes.  $50  Made in China.  Wonderful!

BTW, I gifted one to a petite user several months ago for cleaning, of all things, her fireplace ashes.  SHE LOVES IT!!!

Carmine D. 

PS: On the HOOVER cann:  My dear Wife recently purchased a HOOVER Turbo Tool for $3.95, a discount of 90 percent from retail $39.95.  I use this HOOVER turbo tool on the HOOVER cann for the pet's bed and bed coverings where she sleeps when we are out of the house [sneaky little devil].  Works great for snagging up all the lab hair quickly and easily.  No hair gets on the filters or in the bag compartment.  Remarkable.

Carmine D.

&lt;BR&gt;<BR> bucks03 wrote: &lt;BR&gt;

I strongly agree about the debris capacity of the newer uprights, specifically the DC24, DC25, and DC27. Those are full sized machines with mid-sized containers. I'm assuming they reduced the size of the bins for the purpose of weight reduction, but from this, they aren't slashing that much weight off the machine. I think bigger bins are the way to go.

On the left is the DC25 as it is today. To the right of it is my version that I feel would further benefit pet owners, as well as those who don't vacuum too often.

Good digital job.  It looks perfect.

The taller larger (DC14 vice DC21) bin should make for a better filtering vacuum, but with the smaller diameter lightweight bin’s, it may not make that much difference.  Cost and weight are factors for sure, but caring the vacuums without them “feeling” heavy is a huge issue.  The DC18 probably “feels” heavier than the DC25, even though it weighs less.  Additionally carrying the vacuums up stairs without the vac hitting the stair treads or risers is a goal too.  Dyson has got to have a vac that can be carried up stairs as easily/nearly as easy as the Oreck.  Hoover believes in it and included an Oreck-like mid-handle on their Oreck-knock off.  I must believe this is a big selling feature and request.

DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Mea culpa.  The bags, 5 to a pcakage, plus a primary and secondary filter, retail for $5.99.  I am currently using the 3 rd bag that came with the new vacuum.  One inside the vacuum, when bought new, and 2 spares.  I've used the vacuum since August 2007, or almost a year and one half and just put new bag 3 in [full indicator was not engaged].  By year 3, at the current usage rate, I'll be ready for bag 5 and the 2 filter replacements, which are recommended for replacement with each 5th bag change.  Another feature I like about this 'cheapo' is the suction reduction.  A 'rheostat' suction control that increases and decreases suction. 

Hope that helps.

BTW, wonderful graphics on the dysons.  Nice work! 

Carmine D.

The specs are good it shows the difference. You see that the 'older' Dyson DC07 has the biggest capacity of all the newer ones.  The very first Dysons in the UK had big 4 litre capacity,  no other Dysons after the DC01 DC02 DC04   hold this much dirt.    I liked the wacky colours Dyson used to use for the De Stijl, Clear and Antarctica models.

Not sure why but the latest models do not excite me very much but I am glad to hear that Dyson reliability is better.

CarmineD wrote:
Contrary opinion[s]?  Probably.  Fault-finding?  Mostly.

If you were a true vacuum cleaner connoisseur you would of celebrated Sir James’s DDM DC22‘s break-thru inventions and benefits, the decades-old benchmarks it has destroyed and the new benchmarks it set. - And then follow up with your “exchange of diverse vacuum opinions”.

Digital motors are the future, I expect Dyson copy-cat manufacturers are again looking to Dyson to “show them the way”, that is...  they have their patent lawyers and engineers pouring over Dyson's DDM and patents to learn how to best-copy James’ digital motor-radically advanced filtration lead.

Nothing on the planet can touch Dyson’s new benchmarks and benefits and you’re watching it go by.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Today is April 2.  Yesterday was April Fool's Day!  You're a day late with this joke!  Performance and price not patents sells vacuums.  Dyson boasts 50 plus patents for its DC27.  Meaningless filler.  It's gotten ONE and ONLY one review to date from a SAM's Club buyer on Dce 28, 2008.  Not an impressive number of buyers/owners for a vacuum that you heard and said is a "GREAT" machine.  Time will tell.... but at least for now I don't see this DC27 product, like the DDM DC22, setting any records for sales among retailers and vacuum buyers.  My opinion.  Not fault finding.  Just being realistic.  I'm not overly entralled as you are over dyson products especailly those that aren't even tried and tested as yet.  Still nothing from the VDTA on the DDM DC22.  I suppose they just are not true vacuum connoisseurs!  Like me. 

Carmine D.

WHAT !!! WHATS IT COST ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND,IM OFF TO THE LOCAL YARD SALE.

SEE YA

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:

So in other words, MOLE, you're telling propspective vacuum buyers to can the high price imports and buy a used Diamond Jubilee and/or some such model at a local yard sale for $10, $15, $20 and take into an independent vacuum store owner/operator for a refurb/repair!  I have to agree.  Maybe even put on eBay for a few thousand $.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine, when your in this business as long as you and I have been, along with a few others like Venson,You know and recommend whats best for your customers.

The quick hit sell them what ever is on the roster and let the service department put out all the fires will and has come back to haunt these same quick buck get the numbers at any cost and are and closing their doors.

Yes the D.J. done right [although not my favorite model] will last long enough that the customer will see their grand kids go through high school.With a new hose every 8 years and tune ups done every 8 to 10 years.

I will admit that after selling and repairing almost every vacuum on the planet[centrals included] ELECTROLUX /AERUS is still the best all around value either new or rebuilt.

The pricing is not insane,

How many 40 and 50 year old dysons, and mieles you see? nuff said.

regards

MOLE

Here's one thing that I find questionable about the DC22's motorhead: It's only nine inches wide. To me, this seems to be a bit too narrow, even if its intended purpose is to clean smaller homes. Even the Miele compacts use 10.5" wide power nozzles, let alone the 13.5" width of the Dyson full size power nozzles. It a PN with a narrow width of 9 inches more common in Europe/Asia?

Japanese specs: 282 X 233 X 69 mm or 11.10 x 9.17 x 2.71 inches (Length x Width x Height)

iMacDaddy wrote:
Howdy iMacDaddy,

All things loved in America are not necessarily a big deal elsewhere. Canister vacuums with power nozzles in general, to my knowledge, are not and have not been a high-priority in regard to European vacuum makers OR consumers in Europe or Asia. I was away a long time and of course always checking out stuff wherever I happened to be. Besides looking around shops and department stores I check out catalogs as well. Upright vacuums of course were being manufactured but canister vacuums with PNs basically were not. Save for Luxe International -- http://www.luxinternational.com/products/bright_home/ -- I saw Siemens, AEG, Fakir, Morphy Richards, Nilfisk, Electrolux AB and any number of canister cleaner brands but can't recall one that included a power nozzle among its accessories. I do not know whether it was due to them not being of interest or importance to consumers, consumer's concerns over power consumption -- quite often a big deal abroad, or just cost. However power nozzles, believe it or not, have been a vacuum buying enticement in this country for at least the last fifty years.

As I stated in an earlier post many PNs were on the small side starting out and few were rating as comparable to a regular upright for good rug cleaning. Thus PN's needed to be wider (to match an uprights cleaning path plus have better brush rolls. Appparently, this challenge has been met as cansters with PNs that don't match upright carpet cleaning ability are more the exception than the rule.

For what it's worth, please note that the average width of straight suction canister vac nozzles was usually 12" and seldom less than 11". Bare floor tools were often made smaller at about 9" to 10".

Unless the area you're cleaning is cluttered with things either of a size or weight that would make moving them inconvenient and/or too time consuming as you work, a 12" to 14" PN should suffice for just about anybody. A 9" PN is not useful just however a vacuum of such small size probably would be render inefficient if fitted with one that's wider. To me using PNs and vacuums this small for other than tiny apartments and/or light duty is the same as borrowing a kid's toy shovel to dig a ditch.

Venson

I also forgot the consideration, that in Turkey plus many parts of Asia, people nor their visitors enter their homes wearing shoes. Though I am not sure the same applies for other Muslim countries, in all parts of Turkey, even Istanbul and Ankara the capital, guests remove their shoes when entering private homes. The same applies in Japan and surrounding areas I believe. That alone eliminates need for heavy artillery.

Venson

9 inches might make a good nozzle size for a stick vacuum for $100 plus for quick pick ups.  Not $700, $800 and $900 MSRP canns.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

A 9 inch nozzle is nothing to be ashamed of.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

Often enthusiasts and independents attack Dyson products with weak arguments.  Show them how to build a good argument...  Q:  Why is a 9” nozzle a bad thing?

DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:  You're still in April Fool's mode!  Too small.  Worthless for users except as a quick picker upper.  Just like the whole DDM DC22 vacuum!  Too small.  The brush roll revolves in the wrong direction too.  A point made very early on in the thread.  Re-read. 

Carmine D.

Dyson and his fans [employees] have to make the arguments "for" this new revolutionary and radical model with the VDTA and vacuum buying consumers.   Not the other way around.   So far it's not working for some here.  What do you say to convince us.  Can the euphemisms and glowing words.  Give us the facts.  We know the filter schedule.  Broad promise at best for the moment.  Time will tell.  Don't know this to be the case yet.  What else do you have to offer?  Don't give us the digital brushless motor.  It's in the Airblade and sales are at a stand still.  $1400 too much.  Like $800 for a baby cann vacuum.  Too much.  But it has over 820 patents!!  Wow.  That's a selling feature?

Carmine D. 

Customer comes in buys a crevice tool for her golden J, machines over 35 years old, asks me what i think of dyson,i pulled the old end around routine and asked her what she thought of them,finally comes out and says she bought a purple one at a dicount store,i got a good deal she says only 250.00 bucks, but i really dont like it,i said shees thats too bad,its marketed as the next revolution in cleaners,  What dont you like about it /her answer is i'm very limited as to what i can do with it,too much hassle to use,plus i dont like cleaning anyway,

Now the best part [CAN YOU SELL IT FOR ME] I reply SURE what do you want for it, G ive me the crvice tool and 6 bags and its yours,I own  dc14 for $ 4.00

regards

MOLE

mole wrote:
Touching store.  Is that the only screwing that you gave her?  Another reason to avoid those supposed honest indepentents

HS:

I'm a tad longer in the tooth than you.  Back in my day when a lady called out to you on the bed and said: Here it tis!  If you accomodated her, it was not called 'screwing' it was called 'mutual consent.'  Apparently, MOLE feels the same.  All in all, based on the stories here posted about used and second hand dysons, I'd say a Lux crevice tool and 6 bags for an unwanted soon to be discontinued dyson DC14, with a worthless and useless clutch, is an even exchange.  Soon former dyson owners will be giving them away.  Wonder who it was here who said: Before you ever see a dyson at a yard sale, I'll die from a heart attack.  He must have more lifes that Walter Mitty because if this were true he would have died one 1000 deaths already. 

Carmine D.

BTW, the poster who still posts here tho his logon has gone thru a few iterations over the years and forums will recall I said to him when he made that ludicrous statement:  I hope your soul gets raised to heaven quickly before the devil finds out your dead.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote: CarmineD wrote:
...You gave your opinion again. - Your posts read like you “haven't a clue”.

1. Can you demonstrate (by evidence or a sound argument) why this 9” wide nozzle is inferior to a larger/wider nozzle?
2. Can you tell us what width size would make for “the ideal nozzle”?

DIB

CarmineD wrote:

You are also shorter in the sight.  Nothing was said about the clutch.  BTW, ladies do not do as you described. The men who do as you say are called whore hoppers. Not lady hoppers.

How many vacs have you given away? 

DIB:

Your naivity is intensely excruciating.  You'd be better served to say its an April Fool's canarde than continue with this useless narration.  You're killing Venson, iMacDaddy, MOLE and I woith this absurd line of questions.  You're lost.   Because I like you and I can't stand to see you make an unending fool of yourself, please do all of us here a huge favor.  If you have any vacuums close by, get them all.  Uprights.  Canns with/wo power heads.  Hand vacuums.  Sticks. etc.  Then get a ruler, inches or metric and measure the lengths of the cleaning heads/floor/rug nozzles.  Then report back here your findings.  Maybe, hopefully, once you have collected the evidence for yourself by your own hand you can draw some conclusions on why a 9 inch nozzle that probably has a 7 inch brush roll, that revolves c/clockwise [unlike industry standard brushes which is a topic for another thread so not to confuse you with too much information at one time] at an MSRP of $800 is a complete and utter waste of buyers' money.

Carmine D.

 

HARDSELL wrote:

Save that dyson finally after over 6 years has officially scrubbed it from all its USA uprights!  What does that tell you?

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

YES, YES, YES.  You're not listening/reading.  Look at any of the HOOVER/TTI cann power nozzles today and in the past.  Get your ruler out.  Measure.  Record.  Then compare to the DDM DC22 9 inch nozzle.  Tell us the differences, PLEASE!!!  So we can move on from this absurd litany of obfuscation.

Carmine D.

On another note DIB, your complete lack of understanding and knowledge on how vacuums do/should work are not the fault of others but with you.  You need to get up to speed before you deride others for your lack of comprehension.  Again, you and dyson have to provide the selling features of this new model for $800 a pop, not us.  It's got 820 patents.  Yes, but which of these is for a 9 inch power head nozzle?

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote: CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

You do not have to get mad because you don’t have the answer.


Since this vacuum is for residential use (aka an obstacle course) the 9" pn or highly lightweight, highly maneuverable (DC18-like steering) will fit into, around, through, sculpt/cut around much and will prove be a breath of fresh air and better alternative for many

If it is undersized for open spaces then we are only talking a matter of seconds to push/pull the wand and pn to clean an open space (compared to a larger pn).
If a user has to stop and move a coffee table, basket, etc because a large pn cannot fit, then this is down time.  The argument of a larger nozzle as a better tool for many homes, condos, apartments is moot and a marketing ploy by mfgs.  Do not believe me?  Put a stop watch on it, count all the strokes, count all the downtime and see for yourself.


DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Boy-oh-boy, you never quit!  The Dyson PN has the worlds only/exclusive only to Dyson - steerable powerhead (that I am aware of).  Are you unable to see the DC18-like roller/steerable wheel[s], or just unwilling?

This system has long been established as a way to steer a vacuum cleaner (DC18) and power nozzle (DC21).


DIB

Remember:  If you beat on it, then be prepared to back it up.

DIB:

I would half-heartedly and rather reluctantly cave to your non-sensical time/effort arguments about the baby size power nozzle if the latest dyson model didn't come with a $700/$800 price tag.  Plus, the DC18 nozzle is soooo good according to you that dyson discontinued the model?  Steerable and manuverable?  Come on.  It's 9 inches.  What's to steer and manuever?  It's a petite play size power head!  I have a play toy bissell pink carpet sweeper that my granddaugters enjoy using.  It dates from the 1950's.  Like your DDM DC22 it has a 9 inch cleaning swath and a 7 1/2 inch brush roll.  Used daily, it will do the clean up job as well and as quick as the DDM DC22.  Probably holds the same amount of dirt in its dual dirt bins too.  AND it's a classic!  Appreciated in value over the years. 

You still aren't convincing me/us on this dyson model.  No wonder there is nothing coming out of the VDTA on this model. 

Carmine D.

BTW, that BISSELL play toy carpet sweeper with the same size nozzle and brush roll as your $800 dyson is called the "Little Queen."    Don't you love it!  Tell you what I'll do, I'll consider a trade if you are willing to fork up some cash to boot with your DDM DC22 in the exchange [if my 3 granddaughters agree].

Carmine D.

Carmine,

I do not post to try to convince you or other Dyson rock-throwers of anything.  I float out Dyson info and see what kind of negative response it attracts.  You and others have not let me down.  Thanks.

DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Don't forget the toy Oreck and Hoover Platinum.  They are not full sized vacs so they must be toys.

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

Please carefully check out Wessel Werks power nozzles AND straight suction nozzles as well. They are just as steerable.

The small wheels on the Little Dyson model's body do not perform the same as swivel casters. They are intended for easy back and forth motion as is the roller on the PN's neck. The portion of the neck that swivels to the right or left appears to attach directly at the PNs body. The portion of the neck that pivots up and down allows better accommodation for users of different heights and lets the cleaning wand be brought flat to the floor for cleaning under low items like beds and sofas.

Wessel Werks nozzles do about the same thing the pivot joints are switched and steer just as easily with merely a twist of the wrist. Wessel Werks' vertical swivel joint (up and down movement) happens at the attachment point on the body and the right to left swivel point follows. However, there is no short hose to bridge the gap. That design was to improve maneuverability but lessen maintenance problems as Eureka and Hoover and a few other PN producers had tried the same flexible hose thing on PNs years ago and gave it up.

What I did like about the Dyson mini PN is that per the images supplied, the brushroll comes away from the drive at the end of its chamber with just a quarter-turn of a screw meaning no fussing around taking off or putting on a belt. However, similar idea are already in longtime use -- check out Sebo.

Best,

Venson

Hi Venson,

I'd like to see these.  Could you post some links?

Thanks,
DIB

Carmine,

I can always count on you to push me to learn more Dyson.  I just watched a DC22 video where a user can turn the Motorhead PN almost 90 degrees (while standing stationary).  Dyson finally got the DC18-like steering right with is beauty, unlike the heavy, bulky, hard to turn DC21.  The DC22 should out-steer (maneuver) all power nozzles!

Besides being condescending, patronizing and loud, what do you think those [some not all] independent con men can produce in the way of measurements or science that will dissuade those who prefer a lightweight steerable DC22’s nozzle over the traditional (heavy) 100 old swivel designs.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

The link is as follows: http://www.wessel-werk.com/

Click on the "Download" link and all and you will see the major part of Wessel Werk floor tool, PNs, turbo tools and other accessories with downloadable PDF brochures. The EBK340 electric nozzle is the electric power nozzle that turns up on all sorts of brands from everywhere -- Bosch, Oreck Dutch Tech, Hyla, Big Power. It is also a popular addition to top-of-the-line central vacuum attachment sets.

Look at the straight suction floor tools as well. If you know Dyson's JH-25 combi-tool and compare it to the Wessel Werk you'll see it's the same design idea as the better combi-tools made at Wessel Werk.

You may download a PDF of the newest of Sebo's PNs, Model ET-H, at the following URL --http://www.sebo-vacuums.com/frameset.htm?dir=Products

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

ORECK has a 12 inch nozzle head and 10 inch brush roll.  A 'chevron' pile lifting brush roller with direct suction of 102 mph air flow and brush revolving speed of 6,500 RPM.  No toy.  Plus, unlike any dyson ever made and marketed, ORECK has merited The Carpet and Rug Institute Seal of Approval and always has.  Dyson never does/will.  Be specific on the Platinum, there are 6 in all.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

The DDM DC22 has a very limited market and consumer appeal.  Even less in bad economic times.   Japanese market is not reflective of the rest of the world's consumers.  In fact, just the opposite.  Hence the reason James went into the Japanese market first to test the water with this model.  If he went to the USA/UK market, the vacuum would bomb.  It's less than niche seller.  Only appeals to people with cramped quarters and extra cash to spend.  Alot of the former, but not many of the latter.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

No doubt DIB, the reason that the VDTA has been silent on this latest and greatest dyson creation.  Not mainstream, overpriced, no market for sales, too too tiny to compete with the biggest and best on today's market.  In other words, it's a loser.  It will be shelved and archived in the USA quicker than the DC11.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Unfortunately, what James and dyson has always lacked is an honest broker telling him what he needs to hear rather than what he wants to hear.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote: DysonInventsBig wrote: Venson wrote:
Hello Venson,

I do not see what you see...  power nozzles that steer.  I followed your instructions and only saw more of the same, that is...  power nozzles that swivel side-to-side and articulate up-and-down (a 100 year old industry standard).  Am I missing something?

DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Special features of the C-Series canister vacuums: Durability- SEBO canisters are made to last FULL-SIZE On-Board Tools Rubber Coated Wheels prevent damage to floors and rotate 360o for easy maneuverability Quick-release for ease of brush head change FULL-SIZE Dust Bag Telescopic tubes are standard for convenient handle-height adjustment. Extremely Light-Weight Access door for easy clog removal Easy brush roller removal Large contact control switches for power & cord retractor 21-foot cord

DIB:

Did you download and read the PDF files for the SEBO P/N's?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Sadly, I could not post the diagrams from the PDF for the SEBO P/N's.  If you peruse and read you'll note that the P/N necks on all the SEBO's 'swivel" 360 degrees right and left and up and down.  The "L" shaped nozzle [C3.1] allows cleaning around furniture legs.  Brush rolls in all the P/N's "pivot" up and down to adjust automatically to different rug height levels [read: articulate].  What else? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

In other words, "steer" and "maneuver."    It's all there as Venson said but you have to look and read.

Carmine D.

PS:  Note that the brush roll in the SEBO's P/N is 11 1/2 inches vice the DDM DC22 which is a 9 inch nozzle.  The dyson brush roll is probably as little as 7 inches in length.  Time will tell.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Can an 11 1/2" nozzle fit inside an 11 3/8" and smaller opening?  Should folks space all their furniture apart so to allow for this pn?  The more I think about it, the 9" nozzle should prove to be less of a hastle and a time saver (for many). 

You guys got me on a snipe hunt...  This is it?  This nozzle is based on a dinosaur!  It looks like Sebo, like many mfgs. are hyping another zero (measurable) user/mechanical benefit.  It’s junk!!        DIB

 << 1909 technology << 1909 technology

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Thanks DIB for posting the diagrams and narrative on the SEBO P/N.  Impressive.  Please give us an example of a carpeted space in your home/home lived in by people that is larger than 9 inches and smaller than 11 1/2 inches.   Presumably if its smaller than 9 inches, then dyson is NG too.  So you're looking at a window of space of 2 1/2 inches where a dyson for $800 bests a SEBO for $900.  Is the smaller P/N and smaller vacuum with smaller dirt capacity worth a $100 savings over the full size SEBO C3.1.  SEBO is made in Germany [SEBO] vice Malaysia [dyson]?

Carmine D.

Carmine D. 

Also DIB, while you like to refer to SEBO's state of the art PN as 1909 technology, I might add 'steering' and 'manuverability' were both available on the tin lizzy that dates back even before 1909.  Using old technology in a new way doesn't make it state of the art for dyson and 'dinosaur' for SEBO.  Unless of course you are wearing rose colored dyson glasses.

Carmine D

What is with all this hub bub that a machine has to be a flyweight in order for the public to accept it?Are americans that lazy that they cannot wheel around something thats under 10lbs, Must it be steerable in order for it to work Does the average consumer even care that that can steer their vacuum cleaner?
I believe the customer would care more about how it cleans,I mean really what is all this high tech this and that .When i can take an electrolux modelG wirh a pn5,6,or 7 and bury them in dirt after they just wasted all that money on the dc22 now they have a 800.00 piece of art work that gets put to shame by a 45 year old vacuum ,I would want my money back.............

REGARDS

MOLE

mole wrote:
Hi MOLE,

The usual is happening -- features and technology are once again being touted over actual effectiveness of function. The larger part of vacuum buyers are not at all interested in weight unless it's really excessive ala the here and then gone 30 lb. Royal Powercast. Personally, my days of wrestling with Rainbow or Kirby on stairways are over. I've decided that, yes, life is too short. However, a 16- to 20-pound vacuum presents no problem for me.

The basic consumer questions still stand. Does it clean well? Is it easy to use? Will the price fit my wallet?

Venson

ABC Vacuum Warehouse is selling the DC22 Turbinehead for $450 brand new.  For such a new machine, I wonder if the merchant made the conscious decision to drop the Turbinehead pricing from $700 to $450, or it was Dyson's official pricing adjustment.  Either way, this is great news for consumers that may have a practical application for the DC22.

iMacDaddy wrote:

Using the same discount, if applicable, the DDM DC22 with p/n would be $550, or less [before discounts].  More in the realm of dyson's pricing and affordabilty.  Question still is does it sit well with the independent vacuum store owners/operators?  Or does it go the same sales route as all dysons:  Big box retail store venue? 

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

If the DDM DC22 doesn't fit the price of your wallet, at least it will fit in your wallet.  Bingo!  That's the cleaning area it serves better than the SEBO!  [If it had carpeting]!

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Come-on pick up your speed!  I through out the challenge already and you have not answered it...  The Challenge:  If a 9” nozzle is undersized as you and others claim, then by how much? - How much longer (time) would a 9” nozzle take to a clean a home or room? - Why don’t you vacuum any one of your rooms and post the time it took to vacuum.  Then tell us how much longer the highly maneuverable Dyson [F1] nozzle will take to clean the same room.


DIB

The real challenge [which you gloss over/miss] is to explain/justify a $250 price drop on the latest DDM DC22 pricing by ABC Vacuum Warehouse before it's even intro'ed.  If I recall you posted here MSRP of $700-$800.  What happened?  Didn't you strenuously object and take umbrage when I posted a different price range and you asked my price sources.  Back at you, DIB, with the facts not opinions.  I was correct, just in the wrong direction.  Down rather than up.  Not a good marketing message coming from your home team company.

Carmine D.  

DIB,

You can't go by speed but area as people vacuum at different rates of speed. The more area covered per required stroke lessens the time. If the rule for thorough vacuuming is four strokes per square foot by use of an upright or canister with a working brushroll do the math. (Don't take my word for this do search for carpet makers' cleaning recommendations.) If nozzle width is 12 inches, hypothetically it should only takes two slow forward passes plus two slow backward passes to do a decent job. If the nozzle is 9-inches wide then you need 8 overlapping passes to constitute the estimate for thoroughness per square foot.

What has not been discussed is that 9-inch or 12-inch, the PN's active cleaning area has to be factored in. The little Dyson nozzle appears to be lacking maybe an inch-and-a-half of active cleaning area which then would be 7.5-inches. A good PN or upright might allow for one-fourth to one inch of inactive area still allowing far more cleaning area per stroke.

Venson

PS --- By the way the diagram of the swivel neck is not pertinent to the conversation. We were discussing nozzle connections that can pivot up and down and swivel side to side.

I forgot to add that vacuuming is still a labor intensive job. High suction, good brushrolls and even self-propulsion may help but the more you rush the job, the less efficient you are no matter the brand of choice.

Another thing -- so far the adverts I've seen for both Dyson and Miele's uprights with swivel capacity is that the demonstrations are silly. How lazy is lazy? They depict people vacuum around light dining chairs, pet bowels on the floor and all sorts of other nonsense.

If you call yourself making an even near adequate cleaning effort, you pull out dining chairs one at a time as you work and put each back after you've cleaned the spot of floor it sat on. This good because it assure that you've got at grit immediately under the chair legs if your doing a bare floor or &quot;groom&quot; the carpet in that area to help keep depressions from forming on carpet pile.

If I only cleaned the parts of me that show, I guess I'd never wash my rear end -- and wouldn't that make the world a lovely place?

Venson

Venson,

I “get” that there is a “best way” to vacuum carpeting.  I say, 90%-99% of the population does not know, nor care to know the “best way”.  This Dyson nozzle can move as slow as anything in history and has a user [demand] benefit others do not have...  it has an “extra gear” that is - it turns into, thru, under, around, changes directions, moves along side contours and obstacles better, faster, easier than anything on the market or maybe in history.  If users want quality suctioning (slow deliberate strokes) the DC22 can do it.  If users want “an extra gear” the DC22 can do it and no others can.  Compared to the slow development past, this is a radical change and out-maneuvers anything and is exclusive only to Dyson.


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DIB,

No, no, no . . . sorry you're not getting off the hook. Your initial question regarded the time difference possibility between cleaning with a PN that has a narrow cleaning swath as opposed to one with a wider cleaning spread. I stated that the time frame varies as each of us have our own "speed" for vacuuming. However, the narrower the nozzle the more strokes you make to mange full coverage even if you do a sloppy job.

As well, I said nothing about proper "suctioning". What I intended to convey is that a vacuum with a revolving brush plus good suction needs x-amount of time to do its job properly unless your prepared to spend money to just skim the top of your floors, rugs and carpeting for surface litter. This applies to vacuums of all brands, types and price levels.

Also the "extra gear" you're speaking of is a called a universal joint and does not apply to this nozzle.

Venson

It appears that the DC21 is going away soon; many online retailers are labeling it as discontinued. I wonder if this may change the pricing of the DC22 and DC23, and if the DC23 will finally hit the mass retailers (it's now listed on BestBuy.com).