Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Here is the link to the UK Advertising Standards Authority, about Vax's "No Loss of Suction" claim.

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_45100.htm

Thanks Trilobite.

Venson

Venson wrote:

I second the motion and raise it.

Looks like ASA rules against dyson and dyson loses.  VAX wins and gets to keep the claim for the MACH 3, 4, 5 and 6: No loss of suction in product literature and advertisements.  These models are sold under the HOOVER brand label in the USA.  Perhaps these will begin to carry the claim too!  Time will tell.  Interestingly, dyson uses the same standard for its suction claim as VAX [IEC 60312 Clause 2.9] and challenged the claim and filed a complaint with the ASA. 

If the ASA ruled against VAX in favor of dyson and VAX was preempted by the ASA from using the claim, VAX would have filed against dyson.  With the same complaint for use of the same claim.  What was dyson thinking?

Dyson suffers from first-ology syndrome.  Dyson thinks no others count because first comes first and is all that matters.  Dyson doesn't know and understand market place economics 101.  It's not who does it first, but who copies the best and sells for less!    Dyson was first, VAX is a knock off.  A copy bests the original.

Carmine D.

It would appear that Dyson are getting a taste of their own medicine, having complained about competitors' test methods in the past. Now, when Vax appears to play ball, Dyson takes a pot-shot at the claims, and promptly shoots themselves in the foot.

What goes around, comes around.

Trilobite wrote:

Hi Trilobite,

As it was mentioned in the ASA article, I checked out the Grattan website -- http://www.grattan.co.uk/Web/main/home.asp?N=0

Vacuums are here: http://www.grattan.co.uk/cleaners/productlist.stm?N=430%204294966622+629&showSubCatLanding=false&cm_sp=electricals_Appliances_subintro-_-zone1_box1_84K596-_-Cleaners_productlist

There were lots of bagless vacuums by  Vax on sale and at lower prices than Dyson.  I wonder if Dyson's complaint had more to do with trying to monopolize by knocking out the competition on home turf than actual outrage over infringement.

Venson

Guessing as to Dyson’s motives...
You guys are all wrong.  Dyson was simply trying to hold onto another creation of his, the phrase “No Loss of Suction.”  A phrase he has probably spend $100m minimum campaigning, marketing and educating the public on.  He had a weak argument and he knew it (he did not create an entirely new category, issue in new standards and become a billionaire from it because he’s stupid).  No one can blame the guy, he has much invested in this phrase.  TTI or better said - the Chinese government sponsored and Chinese owned TTI has reversed engineered Dyson’s entire multi-cyclonic’s and now has his phrase too.  TTI are knock-off artists yet innovative idiots (cyclonic vacuum cleaners) without James Dyson, his engineers and his creative staff leading and showing the way.        DIB

I m glad DYSONS been exposed its about time,Why dont you tell us about how much integrity dyson has?, But the bag was hopelessly clogged my A$$,

Dysons new mantra. mission accomplished, Thanks suckers, And i'm going to use use the money to invent a tire,thats different ,so long suckers............



MOLE

mole wrote:
Mole,

What are you going to do when Communist TTI clones your best moving and/or profitable vacuums too?        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

I admire your enthusiam and support for all things dyson.  But........

First, dyson explicitly presented its argument to the ASA that VAX was copying its claim.  It was part and parcel of dyson's complaint.  ASA ruled against dyson for VAX saying no exclusive dyson right exists and no comparison by VAX to dyson was made.  VAX went to the CAP of ASA and specifically asked for advertising guidance so as not to violate any proprietary rights/misrepresent the claim.  Then VAX followed the CAP advice.  What was dyson thinking?

Second, had dyson inscribed the mantra "No Loss of Suction" on all its products, say on the soleplate, AND filed complaints against other vacuum brands using the same/similar claims, it would have had a better chance to prevail against VAX.  Even without having filed/received a copyright for the slogan.  Perhaps, the $100 Million and/or a portion thereof would have been better spent if dyson had.  Tho, I suspect dyson's request for a trademark for the claim would have been nixed.

Third, success in making money is never an indication of one's intelligence.  A false corrollary would be that more money means more intelligence.  It's just not so.  A recent case is relevant and appropo.  According to the latest winners of the Nobel Prize for Science, a non-descript financially strapped gent, who lost his job as a scientist for a leading firm, and now makes $10 an hour as a cabbie, played a key role in the discovery and invention.  Tho the gentleman, a publicly proclaimed genius, was never recognized/mentioned and did not make the trip to Stockholm with the others.  The cabbie's boss says he is the most overqualified cabbie he's ever met and under his employ!  Is the cabbie gent upset for not being recognized?  Not at all.  Quite the contrary.  He's elated he doesn't have to don a tux and make the trip!  Now, that's an indication of intelligence!

Carmine D.

  

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

BINGO! 

I agree and I think the ASA saw through dyson's motives just like you did.  The same can be said of dyson's recent complaint against Electrolux's Infinity, another loss handed to dyson by the ASA.  A bagged contender, the Infinity, vice dyson's bagless DC14.  No trade/copyright infringements at all were in question.  But the results of one cleaning test by two products [Electrolux and dyson] with the Infinity prevailing handily over the dyson.  And the Infinity had a hopelessly clogged full bag too.  [MOLE, you're right again!]  A feeble attempt by dyson in using the ASA to kill off a less expensive vacuum competitor on its home turf.  What was dyson thinking?

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

Thanks for posting the Web Sites.  Interesting to see VAX branded floorcare products in the UK that are identical to those that carry the HOOVER name plate in the USA.  No doubt the reason in part HOOVER sourced its FUSION and FUSION Plus in 2005 [predecessor of the MACH-s] to VAX and TTI bought and merged HOOVER into its fold with VAX and others. 

I'm amazed at the low prices for the bagless dyson knock-offs.  A good deal of dyson's market share decline [from 2004 to now] in the UK is a direct result of these less expensive bagless models.  I suspect the same is true in the USA and other countries.  Especially with the global economy tanking.  People are digging in for long protracted hard times ahead.  Dyson wasn't smart enough to foresee the less expensive knock-offs on the horizon and the hard times ahead. 

I wonder if some of dyson's recent complaints with the ASA, tho an excercise in futility, are desperate acts for its own lack of economic and business foresight.  Maybe dyson should hire a good macro/micro economist.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine.

Thanks, Its the same old [timing is everything] Dyson got the timing right,by accident or not who knows, Am i supposed to be shocked at D.I.B.S. quote about T.T.I making and taking the profit from the dealers?. I have already prepared about 3 or 4 years ago.

It pays to know the history of this business,or the evolutions as you like to quote,Been there done that and you and I know how this business works,After DYSONS off E-BAY they will be gone from the U.S.A. Hows the Dyson factory service center going? havnt heard much about them lately,are they still in CHICAGO. How about IONA dysons evil cloned twin are they still in BUFFALO.

How long do you think it will take Sir JIMMY to sell out to the communists[T.T.I.] i give him less than 1 year....

DONT TAZE ME DUDE,I'M telling the truth...........

MOLE

mole wrote:
Mole,

I know that you know your business.  I do question you (and others) cheerleading the profit gutting, innovative slothful and communist sponsored TTI for going after a person or a manufacturer you loath (Dyson), when it can be your products and good paying American jobs next (loss of jobs or pay cuts).  Can you explain otherwise?

I want an answer from Mole only please.


DIB

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

I am familiar with brilliant people who are not financially successful.  George Washington Carver and Nikoli Tesla are such two.  They had no personal wealth, yet their God given ideas brought super wealth and gain to the world.  Those who choose to leave nothing of any real value behind (doing Gods work), well the Book reserves no praise for such as these.

I enjoy posting the “B” word and for many reasons.  Demonstrating a contrast; weekend quarterbacks who look backward with 20/20 vision, versus visionaries who look forward with faith that’s always followed by profits (good and honest gains, both directly and indirectly).

I will adjust my dollar value I put on Dyson’s creation; “No Loss of Suction”. - Perhaps up to $500m invested overall.

Those who bring something from nothing should fight for what began with them, always!


DIB

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

You're right again.

Dyson was floundering for years since 1979 with the 5,174 dyson prototypes.  It's was the royalties and compensatory fees [over one million $] from dyson's former American licensee for patent infringement after the breakup of their business relationship, that provided the seed money to build dyson's Malmesbury UK plant in 1992.  Not profits from vacuum sales.

Then, dyson's compensatory fees from the legal suit with HOOVER for patent right infringement [$6.3 MILLION] provided the seed money to build the Malay plant in 2001 and produce/export vacuums to 50 countries worldwide.   Not profits from vacuum sales.

BEST BUY's management convinced dyson to launch in the USA in April 2002.  Dyson wanted to postpone the USA market by several years but instead listened to BB and launched early.  Smart move by dyson to follow BB's advice.  Lucky too, dyson did.  It would have missed the vacuum money train from 2004-2006. 

Of course, the interviews and press releases with all the accolades and praise never tell the story within the story.  Readers including dyson enjoy the simple story of "small time household inventor makes it big."  

Carmine D.

Hi D.I.B.

How many ways can i say the same thing.How much profit is enough,25,35,75,100,200,500,% markup,its also known that any company that advertises the way shall we call them the big 3,oreck,dyson,electroluxA.B.
Like to price gouge their dealer network, I have a clue what it costs them to manufacture each of their products,[trust me its lower than you think]

Not only do they offer coop advertising,but have a lot of corporate management to TAKE CARE OF,including keeping the bankers happy.The dealers have revolted already by offering the middlemen or distributors what they are willing to pay for a product,if you dont accept our CASH offer then you can eat the stuff,Ask wal-mart,ask sears,they will dictate to these companies what they want to pay and the pot better be sweet and stacked for the box stores.

Now is not a good time for any manufacturer to dictate how much they should sell a product for,who can sell it,how many they have to buy, has to be bought through their authorized distributors[i.e. middle men],

Weather you like it or not the time has come for the dealers to take back what is really their business,i dont know if you noticed it lately but the vacuum cleaner business is falling off the cliff,The only thing dyson has going for him is that its privately held as far as i know,With all the money James is worth dont you think its time to give some of it back to the businesses that put him there?.

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,why would they want to do that ? It would blow their cover, The truth comes out sooner or later,by that time the culprits get away, or the way it works here is that they get the GOLDEN PARACHUTE for being incompetent.Doesn't make much sense any more.I'm stating to really wonder whats the schools of business are really teaching these people.

The government being run just like the syndicate........you know the one

Take care

MOLE

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Since we are getting into the realm of fiction, I think you would enjoy reading, if you haven't already, The Bridge of San Luis Rey by Thornton Wilder.  It can be read as a novel about meaning -- how we assign and perceive meaning, how accidents and coincidences take on meaning in our daily lives. And in particular the conclusions Wilder wants us to draw about the human endeavor to find meaning in the world.  In particular note the character of Uncle Pio.  No relation to St. Padre Pio.

Wilder once declared "I am not an innovator but a rediscoverer of forgotten goods."  If you read The Bridge of San Luis Rey in the light of this remark it is very insightful.

Carmine D. 

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

To be vessals of sea going minnows!  The best business education I got was not inside the 4 walls of America's institutions of higher learning.  It was 40 plus years as a small business owner/operator.

Dyson should be ashamed of himself for bringing such a frivolous complaint against VAX.  VAX used the same testing organization and standards as dyson AND VAX sought/followed ASA's CAP advice for documenting and advertising the claim!  What was dyson thinking?

Dyson has 2 strikes against it with the ASA:  Electrolux and VAX.  Does the ASA have a "3 strikes and you're out" rule? 

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,more than likely because they were sucessful at this little ploy at one time,against HOOVER, Kenny and the ball fiasco.IONA, etc.

Venson what do you make of all this,Were looking forward to your words of wisdom..........


MOLE

CarmineD wrote: Carmine,

Fiction?  Is God given insight fiction?  Can genius ideas come to the non-genius? - If so, how does it come (from God or from man)?

Concepts in book form.  Sorry to disappoint, I am no follower of the ideas and philosophies of men.        DIB

mole wrote:

Hiya MOLE,

As a consumer, I can't claim much wisdom in this except that it's a known fact that people will get up to all kinds of off-the-wall stuff for all kinds of reasons if they feel desparate about money. 

In this case, as the Bible and Thorton Wilder have been quoted or reffered to, why not toss in Machiavelli?  "The end justifies the means."  If you think you can't outsell 'em, look for a way to knock 'em out of  the game some other way?  Skullduggery of the most vicious sort.  In this case, I think the intention was to win but if it was they should have taken a closer look at their cards, folded and waited for the next deal.  I'd assume crying over every little thing soon wears thin with the powers that be.  There's only so much sympathy anyone with all that money can garner.  From there on only bribery gets you through.

If Dyson is all that much the big kid on the block, I don't get the nervousness and excitability over "inferior" product EXCEPT that the competition's prices, as mentioned prior,  are beginning to look awful nice to John or Jane Doe who need a vacuum cleaner, want a vacuum cleaner but can in no way justify a four-, five-, six-hundred dollar or more outlay of cash to get what to them is "just a vacuum cleaner."  And "just a vacuum cleaner" is going to be doing pretty good in the stores for a while.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

Ah yes, The Prince by Machiavelli!  What is better: For people to fear you and/or like you?  The question for the ages.  The answer, please:  It's better if they do both but if they can't/won't ever like you, then fear is it!

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

ASA's message to dyson for its last 2 rulings is loud and clear:  Bye and fold!

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

But alas my good fellow DIB, of what super natural species is James Dyson?  And to what do we owe your unceasing admiration, enthusiasm, and praise for all things that are dyson?  Did you stumble upon a new supernaturale that escaped Charles Darwin in the Galapagos Islands and the inspired authors of the Old and New Testaments?  Darwin, as you might know, is a fellow country man of James!  Is Mr. Dyson of another galatic world and not of this earth like we mere mortals?  I can see the latest NY Times best seller now:  The Divine Dyson Covenants and Doctrines by Sir James Dyson.  Comes with a free ball, not the crystal type but the vacuum!

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:

Hi Venson:

Surely, the wisdom of the ASA [and you] are right on with this observation and conclusion.  I recall in the adjudication by the ASA against dyson WRT the Electrolux Infinity, the ASA was quick to make it very clear that it did NOT believe and/or attest to the fact that dysons were the leading vacuum seller in the UK [as dyson asserted in its ASA complaint]. 

Consumers express their opinions and judgments about products and makers with their pocketbooks.  I suspect as you so keenly observed that dyson's tanking sales in the UK are at the bottom of the ongoing dyson complaints to the ASA.  Rather than Mr. Dyson accepting the facts and circumstances and adjusting accordingly, say with a less expensive dyson model [call it a standard] that competes with VAX-s, MACH-s, WHISPER-s, HEALTHY HOME-s, and CLEAN VIEW-s, it seeks revenge, not justice, under the veil of the ASA. 

Dyson realizes it's too late, not just in the UK but in the USA too [its largest market].  The less expensive bagless competition [knock-offs as they are called] has overtaken dyson's popularity.  Consumers are speaking with their pocketbooks.

Carmine D.

How is it that the tiny Dyson (by comparison) is written of here as wielding great muscle and/or wielding great monopolistic muscle (outside of patent and trademark protection) when it does not?  Please explain.

DIB


Dyson:
http://www.dyson.co.uk/
Privately held corporation.  Forbes Europe estimates sales of $1b

TTI:
http://www.ttifloorcare.com/
http://www.hoover.com/companyinfo.aspx
http://www.ttigroup.com/investors/financialSummary.php?PHPSESSID=ac7a634382cace3d846ab069b38e0a0e

Hoover UK (Candy Group)
http://www.candy-group.com/index.htm
A privately held corporation.

Electrolux:
http://www.electrolux.com/naportal_us.html

LG
http://www.lge.com/html/gate.html

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

You're chart numbers, whose sources and references you did not provide, while they look nice, are irrelevant for meaningful comparative analyses.  Why?  Unlike dyson which is vacuums, the other brands [TTI, LG, Electrolux, HOOVER Candy UK] have other products beside vacuums:  Major household appliances; Power tools; Floorcare products like rug shampooers and floor washers;  etc. etc.  If we are talking strictly vacuums here, and I presume we are, the numbers unrelated to vacuums have to be culled before comparing.    

If your point is that dyson is small potatoes in the scheme of things [and this is the meaning behind the numbers] then I agree.  Using $500 as the average price of a new dyson vacuum, the annual new dyson units sold in 2007 is 2 MILLION based on sales of $1 BILLION.  The USA alone typically sells 20 MILLION new vacuums a year.   2 MILLION dysons sold in over 50 countries is miniscule.    Obviously, the dyson numbers are overstated for vacuums if they include AirBlade sales too which retail for $1200-$1400 each. 

FWIW:  If you state the number size in the heading column [as you do], you don't have to include again in the detail [as you do].  Why?  Then it reads:  $1 billion billion and/or $3 billion billion.  I don't think that is what you intended.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I went to take a look around at Costco today and sort of felt I was getting the bum's rush as I walked in the door. Just about every seasonal sales item was put out on the sheves. They're really trying hard.   Halloween doo-dads, Thanksgiving stuff  and even Christmas-style cookies.  If I hadn't looked at the calendar today I might well have wondered if I'd overslept big time.  Anyway I passed on the holiday stuff and settled for mutant potatoes too big to be true and trash bags,

The other thing I made note of at the store as I came in was great big stack of boxed Hoover self-propelled Wind Tunnel uprights.  The Price?  $196.00.  Bissell and a Roomba and the Dyson Slim-Jim are still in stock but in a less conspicuous spot in the store. 

In my local Costco, people are generally left on their own to decide about appliance purchases from the limited amount available as zero sales staff is out on the floor to influence your thinking, one way or another, except for the people in hair nets and aprons that try to get you to taste this or that food product ohf their sample carts.  During the several years I've shopped there, I've never seen Costco make much of a to-do about vacuums.  I wonder if the store management feels the Wind  Tunnel is the easiest vacuum sell and set it out in a more prominent part of the store for that reason.

Venson

CarmineD wrote: Hey Carmine,  my numbers are rock solid.  Feel free to disprove them.  I provided links, did you not see them or use them or know how to locate pertinent information?  You’re right of the redundancy, oh well, I was in a rush, picky picky.  I thru up more solid information than most here, including you. :)  So your saying the super large corporations have no advantages over Dyson and Dyson is on equal footing as the super companies?


If you guys keep complaining of Dyson being a monopoly or any sort after viewing just how small his namesake really is then...  it’s just whining and complaining.  The ASA is a quick and easy way to settle disputes versus going to court and nothing more.  Dyson defending his creations no matter how futile is good business and is his right.  And since you guys created nothing (vacuum related and that the forum is aware of) even though you’ve all been vac guys for 125 years collectively (my guess), then standing and defending a money making creation is odd and foreign, is it not?


DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

But not the Rock of Ages and now dyson hits a rocky road block with the ASA over the VAX claim before it hits rock bottom. 

There is no need to disprove your precept that dyson is a small time player in vacuums.  I agree.  Dyson is and will always be a niche vacuum player/seller in the USA [if it's lucky in the months and years ahead].  Big box retail store venues are not well suited for niche vacuum sales in the USA.  But greed blinded BEST BUY stores and others. The only whining and complaining is from the dyson camp who took umbrage with both of these statements.  Now it is angry.  Why? One, I was right on about dyson being a niche seller.  Two, dyson must now, like you, reverse course in mid stream [with egg on its face] to survive the economic times.  Big box retailers are culling/dropping dyson models from the shelves to make room for the less expensive knock-offs.

Underlying the above is the dyson camp deal breaker:  Complete and utter lack of support [read respect] for dyson by the ASA and many of the UK vacuum buyers.  This, I believe, is as difficult and impossible for dyson campers, like you, to understand/overcome as the above.  Hence, your understandable and predictable disbelief for ASA's ruling against dyson for the Electrolux Infinity.  Tho misguided as are your personal /professional attacks about the ASA and vacuum industry pros who merit your anti-dyson label.  The message from the ASA and vacuum consumers is loud and clear:  Bye and fold dyson.  It's not about who does it first.  It's the one who copies the best and sells for less! 

In dyson's eagerness and enthusiasm to outdo/show up the vacuum industry and its players [read respect] for the last 100 years, dyson missed that above lesson [and a few other important ones too].

Carmine D.

 

Hello Venson:

Your observations and conclusions about COSTCO are right on.  COSTCO and Wal*Mart are the only bright spots [albeit dim] on the retail sales horizon for the Holiday sales season based on their year-to-date numbers.  The Holiday sales usually make/break retailers' yearly profits.  If the Holiday sales are off, so are yearly profits.  If Holiday sales are on, so are yearly profits.

Since this holiday shopping season is 5 days shorter than 2007, and expected to be worse due to the economic malaise, retailers are pulling out all the stops.  Including unusually earlier than normal seasonal sales for Christmas combined with huge discounts: Hence the HOOVER WT SP for $196 [before discounts].  I suspect for the Holidays, COSTCO will offer discounts too on the HOOVER WT SP.   I wouldn't be surprised in the least to buy one for $169 before the year is over. 

HOOVER WT SP is a well known and recognized vacuum brand and model.  It's back to the basics for this year's buyers:  The best value for the least price.  For vacuums, HOOVER WT SP fits the bill perfectly. 

Carmine D.