Vacuum Cleaners Discussions |
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #21 Oct 1, 2008 2:14 pm |
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Hi Venson: Lewyt argued unsuccessfully that Health-Mor couldn't claim patent and exclusive rights since the components of the vacuum were not new and different but old and already in use [off the shelf technology as one likes to say]. The courts disagreed with Lewyt. I excerpted this from the decision [1950]. It summarizes the court's reasons. "In this case then, even though the use of a replaceable paper filter, or a conically shaped filter, or an air intake which set up a centrifugal force was not new, still it seems to us that there was patentable novelty in Yonkers' combination of these elements. This novelty lay in the form of and cooperation between the air intake and the replaceable conical paper filter, which operate together to produce a combined result not disclosed or suggested in any of the prior art patents. That the result achieved is both useful and desirable is evidenced by the machine's commercial success, attributable, obviously, to the fact that it eliminates inconveniences and disadvantages inherent in the older cleaners. The highlighted portion almost sounds like: The conical assembly and perhaps others too predate the Dyson shroud. But it is the Dyson shroud that is being copied globally and nothing at the USPTO predates this industry standard [the Dyson shroud]. If designed correctly and if the distance between the shroud and the interior of the bin is “perfect", this results in no or almost no debris getting hung up or sucked into the shroud (if the bin is not overfilled, note: uprights work a little better than canisters). It’s genius, that’s why it’s copied so heavily.
Save one exception. There are no caveats for overfilling and no full line on the Filter Queen cann base. Seems to you [and me also] based on the court's decision in 1950 that Health-Mor's Filter Queen [circa about 1940-ish with the models 200 and 350] was the first to the vacuum market with cyclonic air [centrifugal force] flow. Carmine D.
This message was modified Oct 1, 2008 by CarmineD
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #22 Oct 1, 2008 3:28 pm |
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Carmine, The Health-Mor predates Dyson easily. But it was Dyson that got the entire package right which made him a billionaire, and now are today's standards by which he now must ironically compete (compete against his own creations). Anyone, If interested, here is some patent trivia... Was Dyson the first to patent (U.S.) multi-cyclonics in a vacuum cleaner? Here are some articles on Stan Kann... http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ncl=http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/deathsobituaries/story/6387AE2CA87930C1862574D40025BED2%3FOpenDocument DIB
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #23 Oct 1, 2008 6:12 pm |
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It was kind of ironic that the lewyt designed look alike, never really worked very well.I know i sold and serviced them.This technecally put lewyt out of the vacuum market. MOLE
Hello MOLE:
I didn't know Stan passed. Thank you for the info. May his soul rest in peace with the angels and saints +. WRT your above statement, I used a Lewyt bagless cann as my under bench vacuum for awhile and thought it was fine. I liked to use both the suction and blower ends for servicing vacuums. Lewyt was convenient for this purpose. I converted to the GE swivel with a cloth bag/and no paper insert as my under bench vacuum [keeping the Lewyt too as a spare]. Used the GE up until the time I sold my business and still had both GE and Lewyt until I moved to Las Vegas a few years ago. The GE clocked 50 years of service easily w/o any repairs other than plugs/cord/hose/tools. Although not used as much, the Lewyt cann was still going strong when I gifted it away before moving here to LV. Carmine D.
This message was modified Oct 1, 2008 by CarmineD
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CarmineD
Joined: Dec 31, 2007
Points: 5894
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #24 Oct 1, 2008 8:16 pm |
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Hi Carmine, Lewyt first came out with some sort of push-powered mechanical device that was merely a carpet sweeper that hooke up to the vacuum. I've only seen advetisements of it. Also, Lewyt did make one early try with an electric power nozzle for a square "big wheel" model as did GE with a model it put out in the early 60s, same style as the green C7. Its PN was appeared to be made in-house though years later they tried a generic add-on.. I did see the GE in a department store but never saw the Lewyt with power nozzle anywhere but in magazine ads. A case of I came. I saw. I fell flat on my face. Venson Hi Venson:
I recall even GE tried its hand at a power head but fell flat. In the mid-50's HOOVER launched its Convertibles [2 speed motor with the higher speed for tool/attachment use]: HOOVER-s 31 and 65. With these and the proven HOOVER agitator: Beats, As it Sweeps, As it Cleans, and American consumers increasingly buying rugs/carpets in the USA, many of the straight suction tank and canister vacuum makers fell by the way-side. They were psyched out by HOOVER and rightly so. HOOVER"s stock rose in the industry. Even vacuum brands with decent uprights, like GE, Singer, and Westinghouse [Lewyt was strictly canns and sticks], dropped out of the industry. Couldn't compete. Carmine D.
This message was modified Oct 1, 2008 by CarmineD
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #25 Oct 2, 2008 4:23 pm |
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<BR> Thanks DIB,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I downloaded the article in PDF form so I can keep it. I don't think &amp;quot;cyclonic&amp;quot; has much to do with issue as centrifugal force is really the action to be described. Matter being flung away tries to follow a straight path but is affected by its confines, or lack of confines and gravity. &amp;quot;Cyclonic&amp;quot; is of better use, metaphorically speaking, on the sales side of things. It's something like the contained &amp;quot;rain storm&amp;quot; Rexair/Rainbow reffered to for many years of pitching. Interstate Compact had the term &amp;quot;Cyclonic&amp;quot; stamped or molded in to its floor tools though any sort of cyclonic or centrical action was actually obvious or described..&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not saying the whole world is stupid, I think if the average lot is told, &amp;quot;This vacuum uses centrifugal force . . .&amp;quot; they would need to stop a minute to get a grasp of exactly how the statement applies. On the other hand, we all know cyclones -- Pecos Pete even rode one. They're the great powerful columns of swirling air that suck up houses, barns, cars and the like and toss them away. Yes, little columns of swirling air do influence the traffic and placement of airborne dirt inside the dust containers of bagless vacuums but all roads lead to Rome though this time the name of town is Centrifugal Force-ville.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Best,&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Venson&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;<BR> Venson, “Cyclonic” is a common verb that is used in hundreds of times of patents and/or applications with regards to dust separators and vacuum cleaners as is “Centrifugal Force”. The motorized brushroll at the USPTO is called “Hoover Type”. Somehow Brands become entire categories at the USPTO too. DIB
This message was modified Oct 2, 2008 by DysonInventsBig
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #26 Oct 2, 2008 6:10 pm |
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Venson, “Cyclonic” is a common verb that is used in hundreds of times of patents and/or applications with regards to dust separators and vacuum cleaners as is “Centrifugal Force”.
The motorized brushroll at the USPTO is called “Hoover Type”. Somehow Brands become entire categories at the USPTO too.
DIB
Hi DIB,
Your point is well taken but the Devil is in the details. I think the better a thing is described the more clearly it is explained -- wherever. Of course, I do not in any way imagine that persons involved in debating like issues in a court of law spend a great deal of time opining the finite detail of the mechanics of a vacuum cleaner or using one for that matter. However, whether the comparison is to natural phenomenon or popular brand, I'd much prefer they eased off euphemistic reference and leaned on basic physics more. The big problem is that myriad brands are taking on the term "cyclonic" -- which can be owned by no one -- and all should be expected to well explain how the term applies to their product lest the public be mislead. Venson
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #27 Oct 2, 2008 10:15 pm |
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Hi DIB,</p><p>Your point is well taken but the Devil is in the details. I think the better a thing is described the more clearly it is explained -- wherever. Of course, I do not in any way imagine that persons involved in debating like issues in a court of law spend a great deal of time opining the finite detail of the mechanics of a vacuum cleaner or using one for that matter. However, whether the comparison is to natural phenomenon or popular brand, I'd much prefer they eased off euphemistic reference and leaned on basic physics more. </p><p>The big problem is that myriad brands are taking on the term "cyclonic" -- which can be owned by no one -- and all should be expected to well explain how the term applies to their product lest the public be mislead.</p><p>Venson
Hey Venson, Instead of manufactures explaining their so-called cyclonic vacuums choke easily at the final (paper) filter and are nightmares to clean, etc. It would be much more interesting (and profitable) if vac manufacturers would actually give up lazy engineering and invent or engineer a needed solution that’s exclusive to them. Although if more manufacturers did this Dyson would not have it nearly so easy. DIB
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Venson
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Points: 1900
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #28 Oct 3, 2008 1:38 am |
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Hey Venson, Instead of manufactures explaining their so-called cyclonic vacuums choke easily at the final (paper) filter and are nightmares to clean, etc. It would be much more interesting (and profitable) if vac manufacturers would actually give up lazy engineering and invent or engineer a needed solution that’s exclusive to them. Although if more manufacturers did this Dyson would not have it nearly so easy.
DIB Hi DIB, What is brilliance? The Hula Hoop, the Cabbage Patch Doll and the Pet Rock made a lot of money for the folks who thought them up. That as remarkable ingenuity as I've ever witnessed. There are still other vacuum makers who diligently strive to provide quality product and appear to be prospering because there are people who gladly buy them. I appreciate your enthusiasm but Dyson is not and never will be running the only game in town. It's all a mattter of choice. The best vacuum is the one your happy to make frequent use of. As well, originality remains a moot point as, like beauty, its all in the eye of the beholder. If "cyclonics" is the subject I don't necessarily think of Dyson first. I think of Filter Queen, maybe not to you the perfect instance, that took its user a long way when it came to lasting, usable cleaning power and could probably even plead the case in regard to Electrolux's Model XXX. I think of central vacs that used the full-blown idea back as far as what feels like Year One. If Dyson fine-tuned the idea, shrunk it to portable machine size -- plus made some money -- wonderful. Nonetheless, there are other companies that bear large and equally illustrious histories by way of less unique product without much dispute over who had first dibs on the cloth dust bag. The only original "vacuum cleaner" will probably be the one that snatches up dirt and disintegrates it with no moving parts involved. In regard to what's interesting, though I am a great lover of science, I am interested in any vacuum that promotes thorough cleaning with minimum effort and maintenance. That's still a dream waiting to be realized. Though we may now dump our clothing into automatic washers and put the dinner dishes in our dishwashers and walk away, vacuuming remains nearly as labor-intensive as working with a broom and dust cloth. So far Roomba is the visionary leader in the area of at least lessening the effort of floor cleaning and Dyson and everyone else has long way to go. However . . . My main concern, as I stated, is the lack of clear explanations of how products work or don't work -- in court or out. Since the makers of appliances and those who sell them, no matter who, are all mortals just like us I think we may safely assume as my beloved Aunt Lucy used to say, "Their mouths aren't prayer books and their backsides aren't stack of bibles." Therefore, some skepticism and questioning are never out of order until some sort of requirement by law regarding accuracy of description is firmly set in place. Venson
This message was modified Oct 3, 2008 by Venson
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DysonInventsBig
Location: USA
Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Points: 1454
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Re: Refurbished vacuums on Overstock
Reply #29 Oct 3, 2008 2:49 pm |
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Hi DIB,</p><p>What is brilliance? The Hula Hoop, the Cabbage Patch Doll and the Pet Rock made a lot of money for the folks who thought them up. That as remarkable ingenuity as I've ever witnessed.</p><p>There are still other vacuum makers who diligently strive to provide quality product and appear to be prospering because there are people who gladly buy them. I appreciate your enthusiasm but Dyson is not and never will be running the only game in town. It's all a mattter of choice. The best vacuum is the one your happy to make frequent use of.</p><p>As well, originality remains a moot point as, like beauty, its all in the eye of the beholder. If "cyclonics" is the subject I don't necessarily think of Dyson first. I think of Filter Queen, maybe not to you the perfect instance, that took its user a long way when it came to lasting, usable cleaning power and could probably even plead the case in regard to Electrolux's Model XXX. I think of central vacs that used the full-blown idea back as far as what feels like Year One. If Dyson fine-tuned the idea, shrunk it to portable machine size -- plus made some money -- wonderful. Nonetheless, there are other companies that bear large and equally illustrious histories by way of less unique product without much dispute over who had first dibs on the cloth dust bag. The only original "vacuum cleaner" will probably be the one that snatches up dirt and disintegrates it with no moving parts involved.</p><p>In regard to what's interesting, though I am a great lover of science, I am interested in any vacuum that promotes thorough cleaning with minimum effort and maintenance. That's still a dream waiting to be realized. Though we may now dump our clothing into automatic washers and put the dinner dishes in our dishwashers and walk away, vacuuming remains nearly as labor-intensive as working with a broom and dust cloth. So far Roomba is the visionary leader in the area of at least lessening the effort of floor cleaning and Dyson and everyone else has long way to go. However . . .</p><p>My main concern, as I stated, is the lack of clear explanations of how products work or don't work -- in court or out. Since the makers of appliances and those who sell them, no matter who, are all mortals just like us I think we may safely assume as my beloved Aunt Lucy used to say, "Their mouths aren't prayer books and their backsides aren't stack of bibles." Therefore, some skepticism and questioning are never out of order until some sort of requirement by law regarding accuracy of description is firmly set in place.</p><p>Venson
Hi Venson, The Hula Hoop and the Cabbage Patch lines have proven to be historically (decades old) great products and it is the strength of these products that built great wealth and in many ways. They were and remain brilliant products. The Pet Rock lasted 6 months. I heard the idea man (not inventor) went on to tend bar. More later... DIB
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