Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

I started the thread about lead cleanup and the Eureka sealed-HEPA system...

I'm now looking at spending the extra dollars to purchase the Simplicity Synergy.  The price tag alone makes me worry that the Eureka sealed HEPA isn't as impressive as the marketing makes it sound.

Again, I know a vacuum cleaner alone isn't a solution to a lead-paint chipping problem but I am venturing to guess that the right vacuum cleaner (with a sealed HEPA system) will improve the situation while the wrong vacuum cleaner (an inexpensive Bissell or Eureka) may actually make the situation worse. 

I cringe to think that every time I'm vacuuming I'm just blowing more lead dust up into the air and making the environment more hazardous than it was to begin with.

The Simplicity salesman I spoke with told me that the Synergy air filtration was "hospital grade."  I also remember reading on here that "hospital grade" is not necessarily a good thing.  Can anyone elaborate on this?

Is $700 a reasonable price for a Synergy (this is marked down $200 with a trade-in). 

I've seen the Minuteman Lead HEPA for $625 here.  Any opinions on if the filtration of the Synergy would be equal to or better than this Minuteman Lead HEPA?

I also forgot to ask the Simplicity salesman about canister vacuums- would these be less expensive?

He did confirm that a bagless vacuum is not the way to go- I will not be purchasing one of these.

Thanks again,

Tech

Hi Tech, are you leaning towards an upright?.

MOLE

Hello Tech:

The SIMPLICITY Synergy is an excellent choice in upright vacuums and comes with a cloth/paper bag.  It's been on the market for several years.  $700 is a tad bit pricey IMHO.  Full sized canisters will probably cost you more, especially in the SIMPLICITY.  But SIMPLICITY has a mid-size line of canisters that are in the price range of $500-$700.

If your preference for housecleaning is in uprights, the Synergy would be an excellent purchase for you.  BTW, I believe it comes with a 6 year warranty which includes the kevlar belt and LED lights.  It also has a 100% sealed S class HEPA system.  Alot of metal too:  Stainless steel soleplate, aluminum brush roll with replaceable brush strips and an aluminum tube handle.  I believe the cord length is 34-35 feet.

Carmine D.

Now your into quality central vacuums with the simplicity price, could this be the way to go?

MOLE

Hi Tech,

Reading about your situation I would imagine a dedicated lead vacuum would be overkill and an unnecessary waste of money.  Yes, there are contaminants in lead paint, and care should be taken when cleaning them up (as with any material, one does not normally ingest or try to breathe in non-lead paint!) however it is not as dangerous as we would be led to believe.  As with asbestos, the potential for contamination is frequently overstated (in fact it would occur to me that disturbing either material by trying to remove them would cause more harm than good, vs. simply leaving it alone), and as long as you are not careless with cleaning it up you should have no problems.  Vacuuming up peeling paint chips (not fine, airborne dust) into a sealed vacuum bag would fit under this category.  I don't think I would use a bagless vacuum to clean up lead paint, as it seems more of it would be disturbed from moving around in the bin. 

That aside, you would benefit from a sealed HEPA cleaner regardless, especially in an older home that is not well-insulated from dust, etc.  Do you have carpets, or mostly bare floors?  If you have carpets, then I would go in the direction of the Synergy.  Although I thought you mentioned you "don't have $600+ to invest in a vacuum cleaner rated for lead cleanup"?  You can find a good sealed HEPA cleaner at an independent store for a lot less than what the Synergy costs.  Keep in mind that is Simplicity's flagship upright and (undoubtedly) the model the dealer will try to point you to first.  

For bare floors, however, I would go in the direction of a small Miele canister, either the Naturell or the S4 Galaxy series.  Both are 100% sealed HEPA cleaners and do not cost a fortune.  The Naturell is a basic, no-frills model for around $250, and would be perfect for your situation.  Due to the low price it is not listed on the Internet but walk into any Miele dealer and you will likely find one.  The S4 Galaxy series offer upgrades such as a speed control, and additional accessories, but are virtually the same underneath.  Do you have any independent Miele dealers in your area?  Definitely check them out and see if one of these models fits your needs. 

Hope this helps, and good luck with your choice,
-MH

Thanks for the recommendations Motorhead.  I've figured if I'm innovative enough I can find a way to come up with $600+ for a vacuum but it will be cutting things close.  I'm thinking the efforts will be worth it in order to give me the peace of mind that my vacuum is not making my indoor environment worse each time I vacuum. 

As for your question about the floors, most are bare- I will definitely check into the Mieles that you recommended.  I just checked and there is a dealer not too far from me that I planned on visiting (they sell the Simplicity vacuums as well).  The sub-$300 range would be much more comfortable than $700!

I'd like to learn more about the HEPA class standards.  Carmine pointed out that the Synergy "has a 100% sealed S class HEPA system."  Are there any decent references or discussions recommended (I'll do some Googling following this post). 

Regards,

Tech

Three Step S-Class Filtration System 99.9% Effective at Removing All Particles to 0.3 Microns

First, debris is picked-up by the power brush agitation and vacuum suction and then moved up and into the three layer filter bag for the main debris collection. Then, suctioned air moves through the entire dust bag and into a fiberglass-free hospital grade micro-filter capturing the remaining smaller particles. Finally, a fiberglass-free micro-exhaust filter cleans the exhaust air that the vacuum emits.

Hello Tech:  Sorry for not explaining.  MIELE vacuums meet the same requirements for sealed S-Class HEPA.  Also, excellent choice.

Carmine D.

G'day Tech,

If you're trying to cut costs and are mainly bare floor you may want to look at the Simplicity Jessie.  It uses a hepa bag and filter in a sealed system but is designed for hard surfaces and small amounts of carpet.  If a powerhead is a must a good deal can usually be had on the Simplicity S20, while not a completely sealed system it still uses a hepa bag (same as the Jessie) and if you swap out the standard Riccar hepa for a Eureka True Hepa (they are interchangeable) you'll have a well filtered vacuum.  Sealed systems are best but as always it's what you can do for the dollar that usually matters most.

Dusty

My opinion, for what its worth.

No big box store machine is a true HEPA vacuum, you will only find these in the specialty stores, and on brands such as Simplicity and Miele.  The Simplicity Synergy has 2 levels of filtration, standard and plus.  For lead I wouuld suggest upgrading the model you are looking at to Plus if you choose that model.  The Hepa Plus filter with the sealed system gives the vacuum a rating of 100% (tested with the particle scanner thing) of all particles down to .3 microns.

But like some others here have said, you need to see if the Synergy is the right one for you.  It would be a great vacuum for a house with all carpet or mixed carpet, rugs, floors.  For all bare floors with a few areas of carpet you may want to consider something else, like a suction only HEPA canister, or a canister with a mini power head if you have larger area rugs, or 1-2 small rooms of carpet.  The best way to go is to go to the vacuum store and be specific, tell them you need HEPA and describe the house you will be cleaning, such as floor surfaces and other things like if you have pets, and let a experianced sales person help you decide what features you want/need.  And you can try them out while you are there.

Once again, thanks for the responses.  I wanted to have a bit of knowledge about my situation and the vacuums available before walking into a vacuum cleaner store and I feel that I now have that. 

Carmine,

Thanks are there other classes with similar specs as well (better and worse than S-class)?

Tech

David:

For vacuum cleaners, being tested and rated as certified S-Class sealed HEPA is the best.  The certification refers to the HEPA filter and the vacuum cleaner working as a sealed system.

FYI:

http://articles.webraydian.com/article10123-How_to_Select_a_HEPA_Vacuum_Cleaner.html

Carmine D.

The Miele Naturell is not Miele Hepa Filter capable that I know. Assembled in China

The better choice for YOUR situation would be the Miele Antares with an Optional Hepa Filter. It comes with an EXCELLENT bare floor brush and an air power turbohead for small amounts of carpeting. $489 + 52.99 for hepa. Made in Germany

The Bosch Formula Duo Plus would be another choice I would have you try. You should get an optional high quality floor brush thrown in. At about $499-$550. Made in Germany

The Simplicity Verve will give you all that you want plus be adaptable for anything you might add in the future (larger home, more carpet etc) $500-$650. Made in Simplicity's plant in China.

I think that $700 is a good price for a Synergy but not the best choice for you. made in USA.

There is also a "dealer only" Sanitaire canister somewhere, that I believe is a sealed hepa system and is being closed out. I'm sketchy on "truthiness" and detail on this. You might have to do more research

Lucky1 wrote:

While the Synergy may not be the best in Tech's current situation/living arrangement [which is a year lease], it may be the best buy in the long run..............Only Tech knows for sure based on what he will consider for his next house/home.

Carmine D.

After a few hours at a vacuum store we decided on the Simplicity Verve.  It didn't take long for the salesperson to sell my wife and I on a canister instead of an upright:

 * Easier to use on stairs
 * Longer hose for use with extensions (horizontal blinds)
 * Easier to vacuum both carpeted and non-carpeted floor
 * Easier to vacuum under beds and furniture
 * Feels more comfortable to steer, push, maneuver
 * More suction
 * Cord retraction
 * The canister is designed to roll over cord and maneuvers much easier than those old canisters from decades ago

We looked at the Miele line too.  The salesperson said that the Miele vacuums have superior filtering capabilities and are the only vacuums recognized / certified by some association/foundation- American lung association or something; not sure?

The least expensive Miele canisters were not designed for use with carpeting and by the time we were up to a Miele which was, we were a few hundred dollars over the price of the Verve.  We were still considering the Miele because of a few favorable factors:

 * Quieter
 * HEPA filter seems more impressive- more rubber (not to say that it is)
 * HEPA filter contains carbon to remove odors
 * The superior filtration, as mentioned above

There were a few drawbacks which steered us back to the Simplicity however:

 * Hose did not rotate at the base of the canister; this is supposedly to increase suction.  I agree- it sucks.
 * Handling the wand/power head was difficult, partly because of the previous point, partly because the hose itself did not rotate at the handle as it does on the Verve.  To me the hose seemed bulkier. 
 * Powerhead did not seem as impressive
 * Powerhead wand did not remain in a vertical position without being attached to the side of the canister.  The newer / more expensive powerheads do not have this problem.

The salesperson was also able to offer a larger discount on the Simplicity and threw in a few extra filters and bags.  So, the Verve it is. 

Hopefully this will make our home a bit healthier, considering the lead paint chips we find (it's not like we're finding them all over the place, all the time, I've just become obsessive compulsive about this).  We've also noticed quite a bit of dust in the air here so I'm hoping that we will see a reduction as time goes on.  I'm sure this will beat the Bissell bagless that we almost went with.

The store we purchased from also sold Dysons, which I had mentioned since I've seen so much advertising for them.  The salesperson did not feel that the vacuums offered high quality filtration at all but does sell them to people who come in looking specifically for them.  The store actually seems to carry about every brand of vacuum I've ever heard of...  Is this normal?

Thanks once again for helping me get started here.  I'm off to vacuum everything I can find. 

Tech

Nice choice Tech.  That machine will give you years of great service.

Dusty

You made a good decision to purchase the Verve.  It is a very good cleaner, w/a lot of features.  I favor the larger S36/S38, but was glad that Tacony came out w/a smaller version.  A lot of women want a smaller, and powerful machine.  The Simplicity Verve/Riccar Pristine is it.

The four swivel wheels do make it very easy to move the machine around.  You may sometimes find yourself pushing the vacuum cleaner to the side.  You cannot do this w/a vacuum cleaner that has two stationary rear wheels.

The filtration on you Verve is excellent.  Just because one company tests their machines does not mean other companies market bad machines.  The Verve has very good filtration if you use the HiFlow “HEPA” bags and the filters.  You will find very little to no dust in the bag compartment when it comes time to change the bag.

Canisters are very good for those who do a lot of vacuuming around the house. They clean areas like rugs, floors, furniture, walls, drapes, etc.  You might want to give your house a thorough vacuuming.  Vacuum everything.  Vacuum furniture, mattress, under bed, furniture and even the walls.  You said, “We've also noticed quite a bit of dust in the air here,,.”, which would help me to believe that you, like everyone else, have dust mites.   It is no big deal unless you have an allergic reaction to their allergens,  Vacuuming w/a very good vacuum cleaner will help.

I have a saying, “Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum will take care of you”.

techphet wrote:

Great choice David, congrats.  You and your dear Wife will enjoy vacuuming with the Verve which BTW means lively and animated spirit with vigor, enthusiam, and vivaciousness!  Just what the house doctor ordered for your old dwelling! 

You found an excellent vacuum store with a smart owner/operator.  And you did your research and homework before hand.  Very smart.  

I would do the same: Carry dysons for those customers who specifically ask by name and provide caveats about the limitations of the product.  And to be a warranty dealer for parts and service.  I would offer all other vacuum brands too and not specialize in one.  Why?  People are like finger prints:  They are all different.  Give them choices and they can decide what will make them happy and satisfied vacuum customers.  Just as you and your Wife did.

After vacuuming and using awhile, come back and tell us what you think.  And if you have the time and inclination, there is a link on this site for posting reviews of vacuums.  Just click on the reviews tab at the top of the page.  Your review may assist others shopping for a new vacuum.

Carmine D.

Mike, as you said, I have already found myself pushing the canister to the site.  Very nice.

Carmine, I will definitely post a review after using the Verve for a while. 

I hate to "Dyson bash" but before doing research I thought Dysons were the top-of-the-line.  I do have to wonder why Simplicity and Miele do not have advertising campaigns as large as Dyson does.  Perhaps they are a bit more ethical about their marketing

I mentioned that I liked how the powerheads move similar to what I saw when looking at the Dyson Ball in the commercials- just seeing the idea a few months back made me think "well, that's innovative."  The salesperson said she thinks she would have carpel tunnel if she used the Ball. 

I didn't take her very seriously at first since I wasn't even trying it but after pushing the small canister powerhead around for a while I think I understand.  It's not that it is difficult but it certainly isn't as easy as I first expected.  I can only imagine what it would be like with an entire upright attached to it. 

Tech

Hi Tech,

Congratulations on your purchase.  Simplicity is a very well-made brand that will last for many years to come, so plan on keeping the machine at least 15 years (as I've seen).  And with the sealed HEPA system you won't have to worry about picking up lead paint chips, either.

Regarding Dysons, even as a Dyson fan I do not put them in the high-end category, they are more of an upper mid-priced cleaner.  Contrary to popular belief, Dyson is far from the most expensive vacuum cleaner out there, just one of the more expensive vacuums sold in big-box stores.  If everyone were to buy a Dyson from an independent dealer they would not have to pay as much and possibly get additional accessories.  There is a reason for the aggressive marketing campaign.  Dysons are built for performance and performance alone, and for those who might be willing to sacrifice a bit of convenience for that.  It is not trying to be the Mercedes of vacuums, it is the Corvette.  To me, the Ball was not necessarily designed for comfort or ease of use, but rather to enable vacuuming crowded rooms to be done in half the time it would take with a regular cleaner (due to constant maneuvering around furniture, etc.).  A few simple turns and that's it.

Were you pushing the Dyson's power nozzle with the cleaner running?  It could be due to the type of carpeting in the store.  On the right pile of carpet (or going with the pile not against it), the Motorhead should pull itself along nicely. 

-MH

Mike_W wrote:
I spent a few hours vacuuming half my house.  I took a look in the bag compartment and I was a bit surprised at what I saw.  What do you all make of this image?  Perhaps I am not using the HiFlow HEPA bag?

I removed most of the dust by hand.  The majority of it was clumped up on the motor filter. 

The exterior of the vacuum itself looks pristine.

Also, is the vacuum supposed to ship with an instruction manual?  I found an opened bag at the bottom of the box that the vacuum was in and although the box did not seem to have a second layer of tape on it or anything it seems as though the vacuum may have been lightly used before.  Not a big deal to me but I would like the manual if there is one (I checked the website and did not find a PDF).

I'll give the store a call tomorrow.

Tech

techphet wrote:
From the looks of things I'd say you have either a previously used machine or the bag wasn't seated properly into the bag holder.  There is no other reason for that amount of dust to be in the chamber, not even after a year of household use.  The machines do indeed come with a manual and registration card.  I'd be making a return trip back to the dealer to find out what's going on.

Dusty

techphet wrote:
Looks like the bag was not attached properly in the store.  Not even a Eureka H bag (notorious for leaking dirt) did that on the first use!  You definitely don't want that happening when vacuuming up lead paint shavings.

At any rate I would take the vacuum back to the store and inquire about the machine.  Hopefully you did not get "burned" from a less-than-reputable dealer but there are plenty of them out there and that does happen.  And at least now you have a good excuse to upgrade to the cloth Filtrete-style bags!

-MH

Motorhead, I'm unfamiliar with the cloth "Filtre style" bags.  These are better than the Simplicity "HEPA bags" I take it?  I'll inquire when I'm at the store. 

I'm hoping they will not have an issue exchanging this unit for a brand new one.  I'm quite unhappy to have paid as much as I did for it only to have one use make it dirtier than it would be after a year of use.  I guess I'll see how my dealer's customer service is. 

Tech

The bag in the picture of the machine was a Simplicity High-Flow HEPA.  These bags are made from the Filtrete material.  Filtrete and High-Flow HEPA are the same.

It looks to me like the bag coupling collapsed , was there a new bag installed in the machine when you got it?, did you install the bag ?Did the thermal switch shut the machine down after 10 minuets of use.

I smell a rat, maybe self induced sabotage?

Your not fooling me, Are you on DYSONS payroll too

mole

techphet wrote:
I stand behind my previous statement.  The inside of the compartment should not look like that.  Even if you used the blue microlined bags, it would not look like that.  The Simplicity HiFlow HEPA bags work really well.  There are a few things that may have happened.

Did you look inside before you started cleaning at home?  I am wondering if you received it like this or if it happened on "your watch".  When you opened and discovered this, was there quite a bit around the bag opening?  There is very little chance that this bag was put in wrong, because it only goes in one way.  If the collar in not completely locked into its holder, the lid will not close and you will not be able to use the vacuum cleaner.  The machine-end of the hose is inserted inside the bag.  The membrane around the opening helps seal the dust in.  If the bag is not completely locked into place, the hose will not insert.

Look all around the bag for holes, tears or excessive discoloration on bag.  These bags are more difficult to tear, but it can happen.  Look behind the bag collar and see if there is any tear where the bag is attached to the cardboard. 

Open up the exhaust filter cover and remove the filter and inspect it.  What do you see? 

The Verve could have been purchased and returned or used as a demo, then boxed up and left a secret.  When the Simplicity is unpacked, most of the parts are wrapped pretty well.  The main unit should have been wrapped in the large plastic bag and not found at the bottom of the box.  That is a clue right there.

You must pay the shop a visit.  Get the manual, because it cost a pretty penny. 

Hello David Tech:

Bad new vacuum experience!  It happens.  Very shoddy for the store to let the Verve leave the store without the Users Manual/bad paper bag/installation.   It happens!  Inexperience by the store staff/busy with several customers...........whatever.  It happens.  The issue now is as you said: Customer service!

Questions to ask the store sales person:  Is the bag pictured in the vacuum the original equipment paper bag installed from the factory?  Did the Verve ship from the factory without a Users Manual?  If yes to either, it's a factory problem. 

If no to either, and the store inserted a new HEPA filtrete, and removed the Users Manual, then it's a store problem.  Either way, the store owner/operator has the responsibility to make it right and satisfy you, the customer.

I'm inclined to believe the later since the Users Manual was missing.  Let's go on the latter assumption.  The store staff removed the original bag in the Verve [for whatever reason] and replaced it with a new bag that was bad/installed incorrectly.  The store should make it right and provide you with a User's Manual plus something extra.  

Don't call.  Go in person to the store with the Verve.  With the questions I posed above in your mind to ask.  Talk with the store person who made the sale.  Just open up the bag compartment and ask him/her what would cause this to happen?  Let the store tell you what happened.  Also ask:  Why didn't the vacuum's fail safe shutoff switch work?  [MOLE's point]. 

Solution:  This is a correctable problem with an answer that only the store's owner/operator knows for sure.  If you paid the full price for a new Verve, then the store should sell you a new Verve in a box with the paper bag installed from the factory and a Users Manual.  Not a demo/display that has most probably been tampered and/or manipulated [either by the store staff/customers] to cause the problems you had: No manual and a bad bag/installation.  If you learn from the store staff that this Verve was in fact a store demo/display [customer return?], and it insists you must keep it [after they correct the dirt/bag problem] ask for a discount from the price you paid.  Substantial discount if a customer return!  Stand your ground.  The store has to satisfy you. 

Compromise position:  If you don't get a new Verve, and/or a substantial discount for buying a demo/display [customer return?] , ask for a supply of the HEPA filtrette bags.  A year's supply would equate to 8-10 bags.  That's the least the store can do after it corrects the vacuum's problems.

Keep us posted on your progress. 

On a postive note, you now know for sure that the Verve vacuum is completely sealed since the dirt in the bag compartment never leaked out and onto the outside of the vacuum and/or into the air your breathe.  Had this happened, you would have stopped and opened the vacuum up to investigate sooner minimizing the effect of the bad bag/installation.

Carmine D.

Do not forget to ask for the "Simplicity Customer Service" phone number. It will be very useful it you do not get what you want. They are, IMHO excellent people to deal with, (at least from my experience at the dealers standpoint). Even though they did a demo, I'm also a little perplexed why they didn't open the box, put it together for you at the store and go over it step by step with you again. Customers do not grasp everything during their demo as they have other things like affordability factors or confusing features of different models they are shown running through their minds that cloud their retention.

Mike, Carmine, Lucky

Thanks for the advice.  I plan on stopping at the store today if the manager is in, otherwise Tuesday.

Mole,

The vacuum never shut itself off.  The bag was already installed.  I had opened and closed the bag compartment as I was ensuring that the motor filter was clean (there was a very light amount of dust in the hose).  The bag compartment and motor filter were spotless when I had looked inside. 


Tech

techphet wrote:

Hi David:

Something went awry with the bag/installation either before you bought the Verve and/or after.  Perhaps you did it, perhaps not.  The store owner/operator and you will determine once you take it in and discuss.  He/she will ask you what you did and how you did it [opening and closing the bag compartment].  And he/she will correct you if you made a mistake.  He/she, as Lucky and others said, should have walked you through the bag installation referring to the User Manual while doing so, regardless of how easy/difficult the task.  It's part of the demo and sales process. 

Dust in the hose is not an issue.  Sometimes you shut the power switch before all the dirt makes its way through the hose to the bag.  If you are concerned about it, perform this simple task.  Before you shut off the Verve, hold your hand over the tool end of the hose as though you were testing the suction at the end of the hose.  Block the hose opening for a few seconds with your hand and then remove your hand.  Do this a few times until all the dirt is pulled through the hose into the bag.  Then shut off.  This is probably a good practice to get into considering the asbestos and lead conditions you have.

Ask about the fail safe switch shut off.

Keep us posted.

Carmine D.

Hi,

The Verve manual is free.  See following link: http://www.simplicityvacs.com/about-my-simplicity/manuals/Verve_OwnersManual.pdf

Venson

Hi Venson:

I had to laugh at the words on the cover of the User's  Manual:

Chances are you'll never read me

Carmine D.

Aren't bags great?  If the bag comes adrift in use like in this situation, the motor compartment is filled with dust, the brand new HEPA filter is filled with dust, not to mention the owner has to clean out the bag compartment and that compartment will still not be as clean as it was new!  If that bag was SEALED to where it could not come adrift, this would not have happened.  Or in a Dyson, where there is no wrong way to replace the bin after it is removed.  The cyclones can't come adrift. 

In this situation, a decent amount of fine dust already went past the pre-motor filter, through the fans of the motor, and into the post-motor HEPA filter.  The HEPA filter is no longer clean.  Had the bag not come adrift, there would be less dust in that HEPA filter after 6 months than there is right now. 

So why are bags best again?  Same reason a horse-drawn carriage is better than a car?!

-MH

Hi Tech,

Had you bought a Perfect which is the new name for the Electrolux, you would have gotten a metal-bodied vacuum with HEPA bags.  The bags are sealed, and they cannot come adrift.  There is no way that an Electrolux bag would leak dust under any circumstances unless it gets wet.  This machine uses the HEPA cloth bags which makes the filtration even better.  It's a classic design that will clean any home no matter where you live.  It's durable, powerful, and versatile.  It happens to be, in my opinion, one of the best values in a vacuum cleaner I've ever seen.  It really is perfect.  Not to mention the combination dusting brush/upholstery tool is the best in the world and has been since Electrolux invented it in 1965.  It has never been superseded. 

Would you want the bag to leak dust when you're picking up lead paint chips?  Of course not.  I would return the "Complexity" and ask for a Perfect (Electrolux).

-MH

Motorhead wrote:
Vacuumfreak recently purchased a used Dyson and had problems/  Now a new Synergy goes awry (to quote ) and it is just one of those things that happen.  Certainly no bias on this forum is there?

HARDSELL wrote:
Yes and just think, that "used and abused" Dyson didn't leak any dust! 

Hi guys,

I've been really happy with the bagged Miele S5980 I got as it's been proving itself to be more than just a name.  The GN IntensiveClean bags I'm using with it are not the biggest disposable bags made but you can pick up an awful lot of stuff and still clean well.  Once you fit one into the cleaner it appears that the corners of the bag stay clear and allow for a longer continuance of airflow.  On removing a bag I have found only a minute amount of dust in just one small spot below the bottom of the bag, directly below its inlet. This is not an unusual occurence in many bagged canisters but Miele has further accommodated by placing a perforated shield inside the disposable bag in that works at keeping dust from being blasted through the bag wall.

My best proof is that today, a few bag changes down the line, I decided to wipe out the bag chamber to see how clean it was.  I lightly dampened a paper towel with a little window cleaner, thoroughly wiped out the bag chamber and found no noticable dust.

That said, there's a very good bagless vacuum here at my place but it in no way matches up to the convenience of the Miele regarding dust disposal.  Yes of course, the Miele bags are a bit pricey but they offer near perfect dust containment and each have a built-in sealing device to cover the inlet on the bag.when removed. You really don't touch anything nasty.  This is a far cry from having to dump out bagless machine's collection and manually remove statically charged material, like pet hair and dust, that often clings to the inside of the plastic bin.

The best I can say for bagless vacuums is that a decent machine may well help the economy-minded and folks who think green but I feel there's definitely more of a challenge when it comes to maintenance.  Empty bag to full, this Miele has provided good cleaning ability with a little fussing about.

Venson

HARDSELL wrote:
I stand by my statement that this was done on purpose,How come techs picture did not show the whole bag coupling [take a look], then M.H. tries to appease me by promoting the perfect lux and its vitrues,and what a great machine it is,[HE THINKS HES MY BUDDY],

Now H.S. thinks its another dyson thread.

Is that the best you guys can do.........................


MOLE

Hi Venson:

Please, don't forget to post a review on the Miele Capricorn under the review section here.  There is none on here and your review may be of assistance to a potential Miele buyer.

The Miele's dirt bag capacity on the Capricorn is over 4.7 quarts.  Over one gallon.  Pretty substantial.  

Sounds like the Miele, which you were never very keen on, has made a true believer and convert of you.  I'm not the least bit surprised you are impressed by it.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

This has had me perplexed too.  Even tho Tech's pic is cropped and not the best view of the Verve bag, there is no bag holder coupling to be seen anywhere on the Verve.  As Mike W. points out and the Verve User Manual says, the Verve bag compartment cover will not close if there is no bag installed/if the bag is installed incorrectly.  If there were a hole(s) in the Verve bag [also Mike's point], Tech would have seen it when he looked in.  Could be the hole is on the underside of the bag? Then, the fail safe switch would have shut-off the motor [your point MOLE]. 

None of these safety features worked and/or happened?  Bag installed before.  Verve is pristine inside before using.  Bag compartment cover closed properly.  Appears to be no holes in the bag [at least so far according to David Tech].  Fail safe switch did not engage. 

Something most definitely is awry!  I can't put my finger on it right now but once David Tech and the store owner/operator have a mutual meeting of the minds about the Verve, and Tech reports back here [Tuesday], we should know more.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,the bag coupling or bag bracket,was removed i have seen this done by dealers to make the competitions vacuum look bad.And yes the lid will close when the brackets not there.

I said i smell a RAT,and i stand behind my statement.TECHS more than likely a MY-ELLIE dealer,or worse has a beef with tacony.........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

I have heard of instances of this happening too: Tampering with the bag holder bracket so dirt spews into the vacuum's bag compartment.  The seller, trying to push another brand, says the dirt leakage will toast the motor in time.

The facts and the truth will eventually come out.  They always do!

Carmine D.

ALLS QUIET ON THE DYSON FRONT. WHAT HAPPENED.

BUT,BUT,OUR CYCLONES NEVER MOVE OR GET CLOGGED UP, OH O.K. DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER NOW, YOU FAILURE, BY THE WAY HOWS THE WHEELBARROW SELLING?

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hi MOLE:

I think it was called a ball barrow.  Last I read and heard, these are no longer produced and sold in the UK!  Not sure the reason. 

Carmine D.

YES Carmine,i meant the BALLBARROW.

I heard they sold the ball technology to the N.B.A. something to do with a high tech color scheme,,,,,,,,,,,,


MOLE

mole wrote:

No, we could do much better if we lied as you do.

H.S. outrite lie on purpose?I dont have to.

If i sent you a new sanitaire for free would you sell it and keep the money????????????????

mole

mole wrote:

What does that have to do with lieing?

CarmineD wrote:

Howdy Carmine,

I have not been keen on Miele more due to price than ability.  Yes, I like mine very much but only purchased it because I had a little mad money on hand to allow the purchase.  That said I am happy to relate what I feel the machine can do but still feel great caution is called for in recommending it over less costly but good canister vacs.  There's no such thing as a "be all, end all" vacuum.  I feel the same about Kirby, a knockout rug cleaner.  It does a great job but just costs too much.  There are lots of vacuums that would be nice buy but there are comparable alternates for less money.  Meaning -- there's always more than one way to skin a cat.

You can set out on the road to anywhere you choose in either a Mercedes or an old Ford pick-up and still make your destination.  The issue basically lies in the level of comfort, ease and safety either vehicle affords your travel.  However, though the ideal might be the Mercedes -- or so we're told -- not all of us could afford one and would have to set our aim for something less when the thing that counts is getting there.

Best,

Venson

Hello Venson:

Very well said.  The $50 vacuum if used frequently [and not abused], and maintained by the user will provide as good service and performance, if not better, than the $500 plus vacuum that collects dust in the closet.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

I can't believe I failed to mention the Miele, that's another exception to my above statement.  Another excellent bagged brand where the bag cannot come adrift while vacuuming, with a plastic bag collar that is not susceptible to deforming like cardboard collars.   And a self-sealing bag!

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Hello Motor:

I would agree on the Miele bags.  Excellent craftsmanship.  Well worth the price.  Miele takes great pride in its bags and devotes alot of careful attention to their details.

Would you say that the Electrolux bags, even Genuine, with the cardboard collars and rubber seals become deformed and then adrift and leak dirt/dust?  Or is Lux an exception to your "cardboard collar bags coming adrift?"

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:
But wait, I thought you earlier said, "Simplicity is a very well-made brand that will last for many years to come, so plan on keeping the machine at least 15 years (as I've seen).  And with the sealed HEPA system you won't have to worry about picking up lead paint chips, either".

The Simplicity/Riccar canisters have a very good bag system.  The bag collar slides into the holder and is not able to come out easily.  The compartment lid will not close if said bag is not installed properly.  All anyone has to do is read the instruction manual of any vacuum cleaner they purchase.  Then they should have no trouble at all.  These HiFlow HEPA bags are the second generation.  The first used sticky paper to cover the bag opening, to seal be bag, when the bag was removed.  Now, all one has to do is pull the tab on the collar, which closes the bag opening.

As for the Perfect brand.  No, that is not the new name for Electrolux.  ABElectrolux and Aerus have no business w/the company who has the machine made for them, in China.

CarmineD wrote:
Obviously you have never seen a Perfect bag.  The cardboard collar is as thick as it was on the Model LX "wrapper".  There is no way it could bend in, and there's also no way the dirt could go anywhere except *into* the bag due to the two rubber seals in place.  One on the inside of the bag cover, and one on the bag itself. 

-MH

Mike_W wrote:
Like the Tacony uprights, I had assumed that the canisters were made in the US as well but I recently found out they are not, much to my surprise.  When I said the machine would last close to 15 years, it was the upright I was referring to.  Is the Simplicity Verve made by Daewoo in Korea, by LG, or someone else?

-MH

Motorhead wrote:
The Verve is made in China, not that it matters much anymore.  I've always believed it's not where it's made but who is making it that matters more.  Interestingly enough, the Verve motor warranty is now 7 years as opposed to the 5 on the Korean made S20.  This vacuum should still last 15 years with regular maintenance.

Dusty

Motorhead wrote:

No MOTOR, I haven't had the opportunity.  But it doesn't matter for the question I asked you.

I've seen many many new/full Electrolux automatic [pop-out] genuine bags.  I was asking you about them.  

Forget the new Perfect's paper bag for now.  I was not asking about these.  Focus only on the Electrolux pop out genuine paper bags.  Then please answer my question:  Do you exempt the cardboard collared genuine Electrolux pop out paper bags from your comment that cardboard collared bags with rubber seals become deformed and get adrift.  A simple yes/no will do. 

BTW, to my knowledge, all the RICCAR/SIMPLICITY canns of recent years have been made in either Korea [initially] and/or now China.  These recent canns have all been sourced vacuums not made by Tacony in the USA.  They have given MIELE a run for its money.  And may have even surpassed MIELE in canister sales in the last few years.  I believe an article in US News and World Report specifically addressed this particular subject. 

Carmine D.

Wow, thread sure took off... I'll have to read through the replies later as I only have a few minutes right now.

An update, however...

My vacuum was exchanged for a brand new one, very few questions asked.  I explained all the signs I saw indicating that the vacuum had been used and repackaged and the manager was happy to exchange it.  He stated that he had picked up the vacuum from a nearby store and that he did not know what they may have done to it.  To my surprise he didn't even open the box to make sure the vacuum was in there; my only thoughts are maybe he was reluctant to because of my mentioning the lead or perhaps he simply didn't want customers in the store to see it.  I did speak favorably about the vacuum to a customer who asked how I liked it since whatever the cause of the problem is, I doubt it is something that happens on a regular basis. 

The salesperson who sold me the vacuum said that she would bring the issue up the next day in a meeting she had with a Simplicity- I'm not sure if Simplicity holds Sunday meetings with its sales people but perhaps she meant Monday, perhaps she lied- either way, I'm satisfied. 

I was reading through the instruction manual and read that when inserting the bag I am supposed to listen for a "click."  I had taken the bag out of the previous vacuum when inspecting it to determine if it was used or not and when I put it back in I heard no "click," (didn't know I was supposed to).  I'm not sure if this could be the cause of the problem or not?  I am hesitant to open the bag compartment to look inside my new vacuum- should there be any issue with doing this?

I did read far enough into this thread to see that Mole thinks I am lying.  Although I no longer have the old vacuum I do plan on calling the store to let them know about the click.  I would hate to see test engineers in a lab trying to determine the root cause of the problem which is ultimately the result of a store not demoing bag installation or including an instruction manual in a repackaged box.  Mole, I invite you to listen in on the phone call.  If you would like to make the call yourself to the store in order to ensure that I am not calling a friend, that's fine with me too.  You could call me and then call the store using 3-way calling.  I only ask that you not name the store here on these forums because I do not want anyone to have a negative opinion of them- their customer service is too impressive to me.  I suppose you might just end up telling me that the store employees are involved- if that's the case I guess I will not pursue trying to convince you of the truth.

Mole, please let me know by the end of the week.  If I haven't heard from you by Friday I am going to make the call without you. 

Dyson... Sheesh...  *rolls eyes*.  I love my Verve.  The marketing alone tells me something is wrong with Dyson.

Regards,

Tech

Make sure you get John Kaido on the call

MOLE

Hello David:

Glad to hear that all's well that ends well.  Please remember to post a review and enjoy vacuuming with your new Verve.

MOLE, like me, is a seasoned veteran of the vacuum industry.  We're from the old school and when the usual safety features don't work, we start suspecting the worse.  Do not take umbrage. 

Perhaps the lack of the "click" played a role in the problem you experienced.  But without a doubt the store and staff were slipshod with you and the vacuum/sale/demo. 

Try the bag and see if you have a feel/knack for the correct installation.  Be not afraid.

Carmine D.

 

techphet wrote:
Now we are getting somewhere.  You did mess w/the bag.  Make sure that you read the instructions and understand them.  You are not going to really hear a "click"all that well.  You are going to feel something more than hear.  When you insert the bag collar in the holder, you will slide it all the way in.  It will hit a bump on both sides.  When you close the lid, it will close very easily.   You can look through the intake(where the hose connects to the machine) and see the inside of the bag.  You will not see any part of the cardboard collar if the bag is installed properly.  The lid can be opened and closed multiple times w/o hurting the bag.

"Take care of your vacuum, then your vacuum  will take care of you."

Mike_W wrote:
Mike,

Now that I have an instruction manual that's a lot easier to do.  If the manual had been linked under the product page on the website I would have found it there.  "About MY Simplicity"  sounds to me like something a user needs to register for (like 'My Yahoo').  "About Simplicity," is where I would expect to find a company history and contact information. 

Thanks for the tips- I'm sure I'll be looking through the intake each time I install a bag.  I would hate for the inside of my bag compartment to be such a mess again. 

Carmine,

The store definitely has some room for improvement but the way they treated me makes up for any mishaps.  It might be a few days before I build up the bravery to open the bag compartment- besides, I wouldn't want to let any dust in.  I take a bit too much offense anytime someone insinuates that I am lying. 

Tech

I took two pictures of the bag compartment, is this the bag holder coupling partially shown in this one?  Sorry, the pictures aren't cropped, I shot them with a 50mm lens and didn't think about capturing anything other than the dust.

I took a look at the plastic part that the bag slides into (coupling?) when first examining the vacuum- it looks like the weight of the bag pulls the mechanism down, allowing the door to close?  That feature did operate properly, it's not like the bag was just floating in there...  Hopefully the store had a chance to look at it and can give me a bit of feedback tomorrow (I assume you're not interested in conferencing the call Mole?).

The bag argument has me worried that I'll see my bag come 'adrift' in the future.  As Carmine pointed out earlier though, at least I know the dust is staying inside the bag compartment. 


Tech

techphet wrote:

Hello David Tech:

Yes, the Verve bag holder coupling is pictured here with the bag installed.  This is a better photo for diagnosing the problem with the bag installation in the holder than the first one you posted.  Why?  It shows that the Verve cardboard bag collar has caved in.  It is not straight and stiff [as when it is new].  This is the reason [IMHO] that the dirt escaped into the Verve bag compartment.  This probably happened when you opened, removed, and reinstalled the original paper bag.  The cardboard collar did not become adrift.  Instead, more likely it became concave [deformed].  This condition I believe degraded the collar and seal of the bag in the coupling. 

However, it still does not definitively explain the reason the Verve fail safe switch did not shut off the vacuum.  Based on  the amount of dirt in the bag compartment, one would presume the fail safe switch would have engaged.  Unless, despite all the dirt, none/not enough passed through the pre-motor filter in the bag compartment into the motor compartment to allow the motor's sensor to notice a problem.  Not a surprising conclusion.  Since the dirt never escaped onto the outside of the vacuum either.  A testament to the quality and craftsmanship of the Verve vacuum, despite its country of production.  It's still made to Tacony's meticulous specifications.  Which based on your case, demonstrate a high standard of excellence.  IMHO.

As a general rule for vacuum users, the cardboard bag collars are not made and meant to be removed and reinstalled prior to replacing the paper bag.  Once you install a new paper bag and collar in the bag holder coupling, it should remain there until it's time to remove and replace with a new bag.  Not to be removed and reinstalled during its useful life.  Especially when its weighted down with dirt.  Making it more difficult to reinstall properly.

I'm pleased and delighted that the store did the right thing by you.  Renews my confidence in my fellow small business vacuum cleaner owner/operator stores.

You've done a yeoman's job in providing us here the facts and circumstances to diagnose the original Verve problem.  Not an easy task for someone like you, who does not have any professional vacuum cleaner experience, to do on a Forum. 

Enjoy your new Verve and new home.

Carmine D.

From what I've been told (for what thats worth...LOL) Tacony couldn't get Daewoo to respond to changes/improvements etc in a timely or responsive manner. They chose to build/manage a new plant in China to have greater control.


As per the bag: The click, is as was mentioned, is a "feel", as cardboard makes the softest of clicking sounds.


The picture looks like the bag was just the slighest askew when the lid was shut down causing the collar on the lid to crush the cardboard enough to miss-shapen(sp) it. Allowing the air flow to by-pass the inlet.

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,

There was considerably more dirt on the pre-motor filter before I took the picture (I removed chunks of it in a similar manner as one would remove lint from a clothes dryer).  I should have taken more pictures but by far the majority of the dirt was located in the upper left-hand corner of the pre-motor filter.  I did not remove anything from the right hand side and the entire bottom half was quite clean.  Perhaps the unrestricted portion of the filter kept the motor cool?  The HEPA filter was dirty but I am not sure if it was ready to be changed.  As I was told in the store however, the back side of the HEPA filter was spotless.

I see what you mean about the bag collar being deformed.

I plan on putting the new vacuum through hours of cleaning today.  Will post the review after I've used it for a while (maybe I'll wait until the first bag change LOL).

Regards,

Tech

Mike_W wrote:
Looking at the new picture, I can even see the crease mark left by the intake tube on the underside of the lid.  Someone had to have pushed really hard to close the lid. It of course changed the shape of the collar.

techphet wrote:

Hello Tech:

I think your observations and conclusion about the pre-motor filter are very astute.  You're probably right.

Looking forward to reading your review of the new Verve.

Carmine D.

techphet wrote:

Tech,

What's wrong with Dyson's marketing?        DIB