Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

ORECK - The business, the history, the machine, the man and related.

(Below: Oreck 1979 to 2008)

  < yr. 1979  < yr. 5/2008

Hi DIB,

Is there supposed to be a link in here?  It sounds interesting.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Hi Motorhead and others.  I've got lots to say on a variety of Oreck topics.  How about this to open the discussion/thread...  Does anyone know a logical reason why David Oreck does not invent or invent much.  He is the most iconic and most well know vacuum manufacturer in America and yet it looks like today’s 2008 Oreck vacuum cleaner has gone unchanged (almost) for 30 years.  The business model of no change or little change (to the product/s), is this the best way to grow the brand and serve his franchisees?        DIB

 < Oreck in 2008

  < Oreck in a 1979 patent

Oreck patent 1)  http://www.google.com/patents?id=mpc3AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=oreck#PPP1,M1

Oreck patent 2)  http://www.google.com/patents?id=59wxAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=oreck

Here's some info I posted before on David.  He's an octogenarian.  Served in WW 11.  Commonly called the big war.  No doubt this is a reason for employing Americans and building American made vacuums: ORECKS.  You can't count on one hand the number of vacuums made in the USA. 

For all the whiners, like HARDSELL, constantly bemoaning Wal*Mart and Chinese made products, take a good close up look at the ORECK, its founder, the company and the people it employs.  When you impugn them, then don't be surprised by the huge trade deficit with China.

What happened to the patriotic call: Buy American.  Is it just a slogan?  Doesn't it count for anything any more for vacuums?   Well it does for some.  And I may be the only one who posts here.  Imagine having to defend a product made in the USA for 45 plus years by Americans that costs $199.  And lasts on an average for 20 years!!  What do you want for your devalued dollar?  A dyson?       

Carmine D.

DIB,

I can't answer for Dave, but I am going to imagine his market idea is much like Kirby.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.   Why does he have to invent or innovate, when he has the market that everyone else is wanting to get into. 

Stop by a Oreck Clean Home Center, I guarantee you will be treated well. 

What else would you want in an upright vacuum,upright vacuums are tailor made for open area rug cleaning why were so many hoover convertibles sold because people liked them for attachment use I dont think so.

The oreck features the following 8lb if you cant use an oreck you should retire from vacuuming.

a big feature thats often overlooked is the huge top loading hypoallergenic disposable paper bags that  truely retain 99.5 of dust and allergens,the outer bag is also a filter.

a very generous cord 25 plus feet,and even a 50 foot cord can be installed sometimes a sharp dealer will install the longer cord just to keep the special customers satisfied.

the brushrollor is a  chevron package,excellent at dust and dirt removeal,this machine deep cleans as good as any other out there,there is no proof that it doesnt,

the motor is long lasting and cheap to replace if it has to be, the fan is polycarbonate that can eat sheet metal screws they will chip but not blow apart,The fan cases over time become an issuemthis is more common in commercial applications.
 
The belts should be changed every 4 or 5 months[ I know i will catch flack on this one],

The origional oreck was actually a R.C.A whirlpool,cvr 1000. People that really know Dave no how he got started,

The dealers really scoffed at this xl 8300,laughfed at it but through constant advertising promoting both himself and the machine this machine the man and the family are now ICONS in the vacuum world.

Now that i start to think about it DYSON is doing the same thing,

CarmineD wrote:

Again you are not telling the truth.  I only stated that Wal Wart sells many import products from several countries.  That is only bemoaning to someone like you who always tries to twist statements to your liking.  I have already given my story about how the import cars and cycles got the USA off its' ass and caused them to produce much higher quality.

Americans were content with the junk produced in the USA until they saw what real quality and performance was from Japan.  I applaud Oreck for being patriotic, however patrotism does not always relate to performance.  I have no doubt tabout Oreck quality and longetivity.  When Oreck improves performance to my satisfaction I will certainly consider a pruchase.  Now Carmine and so many others will tell you that the European vacs are probably the best.  Most vac shops push these ultra expensive European vacs above all others.

An import is an import regardless of country of manufacture.  So where is the patrotism among the vac shop owners.  I believe it is profit driven above all else.

Japanese autos are superior to any made in the USA, however I do not drive one because the USA cars are good enough for me.

As an American I have the priviledge of an opinion and my choice of purchase.  Same aplies to others.  So get off the soap box and take your medicine. 

Carmine, you were so proud of your plasma TV.  Why did you accept that imported POS?  Must be relative to you owning it as opposed to others making their choice.

HARDSELL wrote:

We're talking ORECK and ORECK vacuums here. Stick to the subject.  I would never buy another LG plasma.  Why?  Terrible customer support and service!  They subcontract the service out to contractors not their employees.  Mine went bad during the 2 year warranty.  Nice picture, I must say.  But I'm looking to upgrade soon.  But that's info for another site not here.  

Oreck on the other hand has a network of authorized franchised stores nationwide.  Almost 500.  Oreck employees.  Now scrub the rest of the BS and stay with the US made ORECK vacuums on this thread.  Best in its class.  Others try to imitate and still have not matched it.  It's a niche.  And has a lock on its market: Lightweights and hotels/motels.  And has for over 45 years.  Only one contender is a distant second: RICCAR/Simplicity.   The latter is a premier top shelf seller among vacuum stores.  Also made int he USA.  Just like ORECK.

Carmine D.

Just a few questions I've got on the ORECK:

When it's mentioned ORECK is made in the USA, is that every part that goes into the machine is sourced and made in the USA?  I'm only asking as alot of companies these days say things are made in a particular place but when you break the product down most of the parts have been manufactured else where first then put together in another place.

ORECK claims like other Vacuum that their vacuum is 99.99% of all particles down to 0.3 microns are trap inside.  There is a 'youtube' video of which ORECK and others like Hoover, Dyson etc... get independently tested including using a particular counter to find it's not that good at filtering amongst other things as ORECK says it is. The other brands fail too! 

Price, why are these vacuums so expensive for what they are?  It may be a niche market they target but as DIB says the original design has not changed so the price should of come down by now.  The UK prices start from £299.00 up to £429.00, that is over double if not more what you can pay for other brands in the UK, the same in the USA to I would think!

DC18

DC18 wrote:

Hello DC18:

You've asked several excellent questions.  Let me address the first.  By law a US company cannot use the claim made in the USA unless a majority percentage of all the components that make up the product are US made.  My sense, without having read the law recently, is 80 percent or more. 

Here'a an excerpt that might assist:

The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims

What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?

For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.

What does "all or virtually all" mean?

"All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.

What substantiation is required for a Made in USA claim?

When a manufacturer or marketer makes an unqualified claim that a product is Made in USA, it should have — and rely on — a "reasonable basis" to support the claim at the time it is made. This means a manufacturer or marketer needs competent and reliable evidence to back up the claim that its product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.

What factors does the Commission consider to determine whether a product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S.?

The product’s final assembly or processing must take place in the U.S. The Commission then considers other factors, including how much of the product’s total manufacturing costs can be assigned to U.S. parts and processing, and how far removed any foreign content is from the finished product. In some instances, only a small portion of the total manufacturing costs are attributable to foreign processing, but that processing represents a significant amount of the product’s overall processing. The same could be true for some foreign parts. In these cases, the foreign content (processing or parts) is more than negligible, and, as a result, unqualified claims are inappropriate.

Thank you for the questions.  I will address them as best as I can, based on what I know.  I am by no means an expert on ORECK and all things ORECK.  I'm hoping to learn more too.  Because I like the product.  I use the ORECK XL Classic upright exclusively on a daily bases for my floors and rugs.  I find it to be a good rug and carpet cleaner/groomer.  And excellent on barefloors.  Are there better?  Yes, the HOOVER WT is better for rugs.  ORECK is the best on floors, bar none.  I have more of the latter [floors] than the former [rugs].  A feature greatly underestimated on the ORECK upright: It's edge cleaner.  It beats most vacuums in the industry hands down.  Even the mighty HOOVER.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

We were talking about Oreck until you (as usual) threw Dyson in.  You also mentioned imports so I just asked about your imported TV.  Oreck may be best in its c;lass.  Dyson simply outclasses it.

NOW DROP ALL YOUR BS ABOUT DYSON, WALLY WORLD AND IMPORTS...........

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

ORECK store staff recommend every 6 months on the belt changes.  I do too.  Why?  Firstly, better pick up.  Secondly, assists in propelling the Oreck more easily.  Thirdly, the belts are inexpensive and easy for the user to replace.

Dave started his career as an RCA employee after the end of WW11 where he served as a fighter pilot.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Actually more like 40 years of the same design.  The XL 21 Titanium is really the first major redesign in 40 years.  I'll address that later.

Why no changes?  Consider this:  There are 30 components to the ORECK upright.  Less than any other vacuum on the market.  Considerably less.  Result:  Easy and simple to repair and maintain.  Fewer parts to break and replace.  Hence the reason in part ORECK-s last for years.

Consider the Coca Cola brand that revamped its age old secret formula in the 80's after as many years as the classic.  What happened?  It reversed course after it was inundated with complaints by the public.

If you have a good thing, make it better.  Don't change it!  Making it better is better served by marginal changes, as in the case of ORECK.  Not completely new and outright revampings.  The HOOVER Convertible, as Mole pointed out, had a 40 plus year life span in production and sales.  From the mid 50-s to the mid-90-s.  Probably the best rug cleaning vacuum on the market, ever. 

Carmine D.

Thanks Carmine D for answering one of my questions on the ORECK.  It's probably one of a very few products manufactured today that all it's parts are made in the same origin as it is assembled!

DC18

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I own 2 American made automobiles and love them.  I bought them on the basis on their form, function and cost.  Buy buying American I am supporting American auto manufacturers.  The difference between a given auto manufacturer and Oreck is the auto manufacturers do invest in future technologies and designs and bring better and more variety of products.  Oreck does not.        DIB

DC18 wrote:

Hello DC18:

Your welcome.  And now on to the other questions. 

I have not viewed the youtube video.  My sense is the model tested is the Classic, which is the least expensive of the ORECKS, and the one most discussed here by me.  I own and use the XL Classic.   My sense too is due to the paper bags that come standard in this model: The CC.  The other models: The Deluxe, Ultra, and XL 21 all filter better than the XL.  Tho with my dog and my dear Wife's allergy and sinus conditions, the XL with the CC bags bode well for her here in Las Vegas.

Price?  Here in the US, where the ORECKS are made, there are 4 models: The XL Classic for $299 with the giveaways.  This is the model that was recently on sale for Memorial Day for $199 without the giveaways.  The Deluxe for $399.  The Ultra for $549 and the XL 21 for $749.  ORECK added some new models recently in the $499.  More on those later.  The first 3 models all share the same motor and brushroll.  Only the XL has a more powerful motor.  And the XL has a brush roll more suited for easy pet hair removal.  Of course there are other features that account for the price differentials.  2 speeds on the Ulta and XL 21.  Warranty periods are different.  Free tune ups, etc.  The Deluxe and Ultra are 10 years for warranty.  The XL 21 has 21 years.  The latter comes to $35 a year for a vacuum that lasts for 21 years with free parts and labor replacement all during the period.  This is the most expensive.  Is it worth the $740.  Not if that's beyond your vacuum budget.  Then the Deluxe is probably the better buy.  If it isn't beyond your budget it's probably a good deal for you. 

I can't make the pound conversion, but I suspect the high prices overseas is due to shipping costs and the higher costs of oil to get the ORECK vacuums to market there.  Last year this time oil was $60 a barrel.  Now its $130 a barrel. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

I couldn't disagree with you more.  ORECK improved filtration, brush roll, uses microban on all vacuum products, improved energy efficiency and increased power of the motor in its XL 21.  Plus, ORECK invests in other home floorcare products, including a fairly decent canister, floor waxer/polisher, rug cleaner, stick vacuum, and carpet sweeper.  In other words a full array of household cleaning appliances.  Plus ORECK sells excellent air purifiers.  There is a connection too with air purifiers and vacuums.  ORECK is not a vacuum maker that invests in unrelated technologies.  Like one you and I both know.

More importantly ORECK invests in its employees.  They're not contractors.  They are company employees with full employee benefits.  Talk to ORECK employees about working for the company.  Even former employees.  See and hear what they have to say about the company, its founder, and the products.  They're proud.  That counts as much if not more than investing new technologies.  It's called social capital.  It's priceless.

ORECK is a quality product and company.  Has been for over 45 years.  Why mess with it.  Keep it good and make it better.  Not by wholesale rebuilding from the ground up [like some].  And investing R&D in unrelated ventures.  ORECK makes marginal incremental changes. That's what Oreck did and does.  The uprights are 8-9 pounds.  Simple rug cleaners and groomers.  Nothing complicated. 30 parts.  No other vacuum maker even your fave can match up. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Why did you never mention this when you were telling us that nothing beats Hoover?

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

I did and do but you are not reading/listening.  I said my ORECK XL Classic cleans and grooms my rugs well but not as good as the HOOVER WT!  ORECK is a lightweight not a heavy weight.  ORECK is the best in its class.  HOOVER the best in its class. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

This leads me to believe that you think these are the two best vacuums on the market.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Best is a subjective description that depends largely on the user[s].  From my personal and professional experience, knowledge and skill, I would objectively rank these two brands as good to excellent performers for all barefloor and rug cleaning requirements in the USA.

Carmine D.  

CarmineD wrote:

These are your words:

'ORECK is the best in its class.  HOOVER the best in its class'

Are you now admitting that you exagerated the truth?

CarmineD wrote:

Thanks Carmine  D for answering my other questions.

DC18

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

What's true for me with respect to the ORECK and HOOVER usage in my home for my cleaning needs and requirements, may not be true for you.  [That sounds very much like something you posted].

Truth, like best, when applied to peoples' vacuum performance, is as much subjective as objective.  That's the reason for this site.  For people to express their opinions about vacuum products and performance.  If it were based all on truth, there would be no need for discussion/review pages. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

For once you told the truth.  Only afte ryou were caught up in the CARMINE SHUFFLE.

You dance around likea man with diarrhea, no money and trying to get in a pay toilet.

Hello HARDSELL:

I'm learning from you.  Thanks

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Are you sure that you are well?

HARDSELL wrote:

Excellent just like my 14 month old ORECK XL Classic.

Carmine D.

Just wrote:

Just,

Dave can make his vacuum work or look any way he wants, but for me, 30 years and no major face lift/s make’s it a tired looking product.  I understand his lightweight-ness strategies, and that’s fine, but until his vacuums win pick-up ratings, there is room for improvement.

.

Why does he have to innovate?  He doesn't.  Does Dave have all of life’s mechanical cleaning problems solved in his products?  Dyson came from nowhere and has shown there’s plenty to innovate and plenty of money to be made.

.

I do believe there are a great many good Oreck dealers out there too.         DIB

Just wrote:
Hi Just,

Not to derail from the original Oreck-related discussion but since you mentioned Kirby I must also point out that they are another manufacturer with the same problem, unwillingness to update and improve the design.  In many ways we could say the Kirby is the polar opposite of the Oreck; the Kirby a good amount of power and does an impressive job of cleaning (especially with the Micron Magic cloth bags), but is heavy and awkward to carry.  There has to be a way to reduce the weight and overall bulk without cheapening the cleaner; Royal has used durable aluminum bodies for years and they have always been considerably lighter than that of a Kirby, even before TechDrive was introduced.  Oreck is indeed a very lightweight machine, however, it is incapable of anything more than surface cleaning as we all know.  Ironically, both *share* some limitations as well, namely a direct air path through the fan and a belt that has to be replaced periodically (although I will admit that the Kirby's belt is a breeze to change for those who know what they are doing so that is a non-issue for the most part).

Is there anything wrong with a theoretically tried-and-true design?  No, except for the fact that times change and innovative "new" designs are brought out, eventually superseding the old design(s) in either convenience, performance, durability, longevity, or all of what I just mentioned.  

I will be adding to this thread and responding to others later when I get a chance to read through the rest. 

-MH

By the way, I have stopped into Oreck stores before and I will attest to the fact that they *are* very friendly and courteous. 

DC18 wrote:

Hello DC18:

You're welcome.

Carmine D.

Hello Tom:

I take exception to your categorization of Oreck as a rug surface cleaner.  It is not.  The proof is in separating the rug fibers and loop after vacuuming with the ORECK on a regular bases as I have done.  The rug fibers and backing are clean and no debris is left in and behind.  Why?  Read on.

If you are separating the rug fibers by grooming, which we all know ORECK does, then the suction in the ORECK cleans the dirt embedded in the carpet and rugs.  Another proof if needed:  Follow after the ORECK with a HOOVER WT that has an embedded dirt finder.  Watch the light stay green as you pass over the ORECK's rug groomed areas.  I can't say the same for other vacuums including your fave the DC07.  Which I owned and used on the same carpets as the ORECK.

I would say that the exceptionally high shag is the only rug type that the above is probably not true of ORECK.  Then the user needs a vacuum with a rug height adjustment to clean and groom properly.  Where did I hear the latter?  From an ORECK store manager/staff recently in LV.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Oftentimes, makers innovate by making slight modifications so as to extend the patent period longer when it is due to expire.  Not really due to their need to innovate to be better.  But I'm sure you are already aware of this fact.

With regard to the number of ORECK stores nationwide, the most recent number [early this year] is 500 and growing.  I've underestimated in some recent posts.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Bertha,

It should be obvious that separation of rug fibers are irrelevant to the performance of a particular machine, but I guess to you it is not.  If that were the case we would all still be using carpet sweepers because we wouldn't know any better (sort of like those who use Orecks).   Yes chances are the Oreck will have enough power to pick up *some* dirt from the rug, but not much.  The point is that it understandably takes a lot more for the rug to actually *be* clean than it does to simply *look* clean.  If one were to follow up with a Kirby, Miele, DYSON, or any other good full-sized cleaner after first using an Oreck, those cleaners would pull up quite a bit of embedded dirt and grit out that the Oreck missed.  There's a fine line between being light weight yet powerful, which is why the DYSON DC24 is and will continue to be a good competitor against the Oreck.

And as I've said before, the so-called "Dirt Sensors" are also not a clear indicator of a machine's performance, even CR has mentioned this in past articles.  The rug may not necessarily be clean, it's just that the WindTunnel isn't detecting any dirt from it.  Just because the Hoover WindTunnel shows the rug is "clean" doesn't mean the others will, the dirt is still very much there.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

I find it very amusing that Carmine has always contended that following behind a previouusly  vacuumed area  with a different brand will still result in dirt being picked up.  Now he is saying that a Hoover will not pick up behind an Oreck. 

I tried and XL21.  The carpet looked beautifully groomed.  However, following behind it with a DC07 produced prodigious amounts of dirt.

I am no pro, however I have always contended that an excelent brush will only bring dirt to  the surface and scatter it if the vacuum has poor suction.

Hello Tom:

You can call me by any name you please.  I KNOW who I am.  So do all who post here.  Because I've always used my name and true identity on all vacuum Forums for over 10 years.  I'm proud of who I am, unlike you, who hides behind names on Forums. 

If I take my well working ORECK and go over the same area as you with any vacuum you use, I will pick up more rug dirt.  Why?  A rug can hold its weight in dirt and still look clean.  That's the reason I vacuum daily, having pets and grand children too.  And the ORECK is ideal for daily usage.   

I also disagree with you on the embedded dirt finding lights.  If the HOOVER WT is working properly, new belt, bag and filter, the readings are accurate and precise.  The bone of contention with Consumer Reports with this feature is that oftentimes the vacuums are not well maintained by users.  This leads to false/irrelevant readings.  Right?  That's why I said to look into the deep rug fibers by separating with your fingers.  Especially after using an ORECK regularly.  You'll see the fibers and backing are clean with no tell tale signs of dirt left in and behind.  If the rug is still dirty, you can see the dirt in the fibers and backing.  That's the best proof!  Easy even for you to do.

Keep your facts on focus and straight or I will for you.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

I agree with part of what you said and I highlighted it.  ORECK has an excellent brush roll and turns at high speeds.  With that combination, it draws the embedded dirt up to the surface where little or no suction will carry it into the vacuum.  The latter is the principle on which non-electric carpet sweepers worked for cleaning surface dirt on rugs and floors.  Brush action.  They had no suction at all.  Add the rug suction power of most full sized uprights of yester year to the ORECK brush roll, and you have the 2 key ingredients for a good rug cleaner and groomer.  Add a huge paper bag, like the ORECK's, and you the third factor for the making of an excellent upright.  That's why ORECK has the lock on the market and others can only copy.

Recall, if you can, that ORECK specifically matches its rug cleaning performance against the dyson DC07 and DC14.  Both of which you owned.  You didn't like the DC14.  But did the DC07.  Both have the same identical brush roll.  And power!  That leads me to doubt your findings not just for the dysons but ORECK too.

Visit your local ORECK store and YOU can perform the rug cleaning tests using the ORECK and dysons DC07/DC14.  Try the kapoc test.  This has been an industry standard test since Tom Gasko was walking on all fours in diapers and crying dyson.  ORECK will pick up most if not all the kapoc in 2 passes.  Forward and back.  Dyson will take 9 or 10 passes back and forth and still leave traces behind. 

Carmine D. 

Motorhead wrote:

Tom:

This is an absurdity.  If ORECK can pick up some dirt, it can pick up all.  It doesn't distinguish between what it can and can't pick up.  If it's only picking up some dirt, then the ORECK needs a new belt/bag.  They don't last forever.  These have to be changed, just like the dirt bin on the dyson has to be dumped frequently and the pre-post- motor filters have to washed/changed.  If you don't do the latter, dysons will only pick up some of the dirt too and not all. 

HARDSELL:

The same is true for carpet sweepers.  If you don't dump the dirt trays in these and they fill up [like bagless dirt bins], they don't pick up.  Regardless of how many passes you make back and forth.  

Carmine D.

ORECK, as an 8/9 pound  lightweight vacuum is and always has been an equal contender with all the full sized vacuums on the market for the last 45 years.  That's the reason its still the best in its class and others try to imitate/compete.  Not many can/do.  The jury is still out on the DC24.  Which is 4 pounds heavier.  Almost the same weight as the ORECK compact canister.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hello,

My understanding of getting an extension - only if there was some sort of delay in the obtaining/getting approval for a patent and mostly drug related patents.  And I think it is no longer than 5 years at most.

 

I do not know the answer for sure.  My guess is no, society comes first and inventors come second.  Q:  Can an inventor prevent society from *benefiting from a widget if the original inventor keeps tweaking a product and locking up (monopolizing) the entire widget for an additional 20 year patent period.  My guess is no.  I'm sure James would of loved to have been able to tweak his dual cyclone and extend the patent life vesus competing against his own work in the market place.        DIB

 

*After a patent expires others can make for sale said widget and society “benefits”.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

With drugs the period is 3-10 years after the drug is publicly marketed.  More time with extensions if the maker claims the drug is tweaked.  Wonderful case currently being heard.  The drug is TRICOR.  The maker is trying to keep generics from market after patent expiration dates by arguing it's changed the drug along the way.  Competitors have taken the maker to court.  I predict the competition will win.  TRICOR's maker will bite the dust.

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Hello TOM:

Sort of like Air Way!  Is that brand vacuum still around and in business like ORECK and KIRBY?  What ever happened?  Who knows?  Who cares?   Topic unworthy. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

That’s just it!  If society benefits, patent extensions for life saving or bettering drugs are given, but I do not believe it is the same for non-drug patents.

.

Can you link me 1 or 2 good articles that talk/follow this Tricor story?  Thanks.        DIB

CarmineD wrote:

cztlady did not think that the Oreck was that good.  I think you already know what she said.

CarmineD wrote:

The 07 and 14 do not have the same suction power.

I already did the kapock test.  Remember you brought this up when I recommended baking soda as a test.  BTW the Oreck still will not pass the baking soda test.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

If I recall, catlady said the ORECK did not perform as good as the Miele.  My sense is the belt in the ORECK model [probably display/demo] needed replacing.  Belts must be replaced even if the vacuum is not used.

If my new vacuum budget was $600 and in the market for a full size, I'd opt for the Miele too over the ORECK.  Remember for $600, I bought 4 ORECK XL Classics and all the recipients rave over them!

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

The difference in air watts between the two models [DC07/14] is so neglibible, it's insignificant.  In fact all the dyson models since have significantly less air watts than the DC07.  The improvement to allow dyson to skimp on the air watts after the DC07 and achieve better pick up is the improved brush roll design and function.  That's the reason these 2 models are getting scrubbed.   Only took Mr. Dyson and his 500 engineers [the innovative crew] 5 years to figure it out and make the necessary brush roll changes. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Society doesn't benefit by the drug patent holder claiming exclusive ad infinitum usage and charging high prices.  Society benefits when other drug makers offer generics at less cost.  Just as consumers don't benefit from $500 bagless dysons when $100-$200 bagless Dirt Devils, HOOVER-s, BISSELL-s etc perform as well. 

The Wall Street Journal has the best news coverage of the TRICOR drug case.  I'm a reader but not an on-line subscriber.  Sorry.   BTW, the WSJ appears to be on the side of the generics against TRICOR.  IMHO

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Kapoc is an industry standard test for carpet cleaning and has been for years.  Baking soda on floors is not.  You got this perverted cockeyed notion from Tom Gasko, who doesn't know anything about ORECK-s.  If my ORECK devours pounds of sand monthly from my outdoors, brought in by the grands and the dogs, which is considerably harder to vacuum up, baking soda is a do nothing no contest.

If it's not a Rainbow, Air Way or dyson [he's sold all of them at one time or another always claiming each as the best], Tom impugns it.  That's his standard Forum mantra for years on all things related to vacuums.

BTW, while kapoc is made to simulate real life home carpet lint debris, like pet hair, rug nap and cotton that has a tendency to cling to rugs, baking soda does not occur naturally in the home environment.  Except perhaps yours and Tom Gasko.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Infinitum? – Is there such a thing?  Long term, the patented drugs will in time become public domain (generic drugs) and society will be the better for it.

.

I wonder what percentage (if any) of generic drug makers actually invest and invent their own and badly needed breakthru drugs.  And to those generic makers who do not invest and invent, then much criticism should also be placed at their very, very deep pocked feet and not just the healers.

.

Thanks for the news source. 

.

Your opinion of Dyson and his business model is not shared.        DIB

Hello DIB:

Ad infinitum:  Latin term meaning for eternity, endless, limitless.  It creeps into my speaking and writing. 

I speak for and by myself not for others regardless of the consequences.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I know the word.  I know of no drug maker who’s been granted a limitless patent monopoly as you suggest.        DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Blaming inferior performance of the Oreck on a belt. You are as desperate as I have ever seen you.  If the belt has to be replaced so frequently on a demo unit or even if the Oreck has been sitting idle then maybe ol Dave should hire some Dyson engenieers and get in this century.  My be its that a Dyson will perform after sitting idle for years.

BTW, catlady did not say the Oreck was inferior to only the Miele.  She simply insinuated that it had poor performance.

Hello DIB:

T'is I my good Lad, Carmine D.  Have had only coffee, ice tea, and orange soda today like most days.  Mr. Daniels is reserved for limited and infrequent occasions.  Usually when I call upon and toast with others those men among men who came/left before me.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I used both.  Remember.  The 07 is a better performer IMO.  Have you used both?

CarmineD wrote:

How do you imbed Kapok into the carpet?  I am willingto bet you that more homes have baking soda on the hard floors and in the carpet than they do Kapok.  I believe that I was the first to recommend baking soda as a test for vacuum performnce on hard surfaces.  It certainly is mor like dust than Kapok.

Again, baking soda is a home staple.  Kapok is not.

You need to vacuum all the Kapok you can and make a life preserver.  I tlooks like you will sink before you get back in the life boat.

Since baking soda is a no contest why not tell us how your Oreck performed on the test.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine:  I did go back and re-write and remove said remark, but you got to my post within seconds of posting and before the rewrite.  Lawsuits and the destruction they bring make me think before going full bore.  I've seen it happen first hand.  You may write for yourself but when hauled off to court over nonsense, the cost of it is covered by the family nut.  And so it is risky and so perhaps I wondered if  maybe Mr. D. was talking.  Good to hear you say no.        DIB

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

Used the DC07 yellow and pink in different homes on different carpets.  Not worth the money for the performance provided.  Unlike you, after I make a mistake once, I don't repeat it. I have no plans to buy and use a DC14, which is being discontinued amlong with the DC14.  If given to me, I would refuse. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

You walk on it after you put it down.  The difficulty with kapoc like the household stuff it similates is that it clings to the rug/carpet.  Making it a worthy test for uprights.  That's the reason it is an industry test and has been for years.

The baking soda discussion is a moot/mute test.  It has no bearing and no relevance.  It's a non-issue for me and a non-test.  I have none in my house.  Don't plan to buy a box.  Not now.  Not ever.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

It's a figure of speech.  If drug makers had their druthers, drugs would have indefinite patent expiration dates.  It behooves the drug makers, not the consumers.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Never happen.  A shot or two, at the most, several times a year.  That is my limit.  Too old, too wise.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Same for me about Oreck and Hoover.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Belts are made of rubber.  When stretched on a vacuum whether used or unused they have to be replaced after 6 months.  $3 at the ORECK store.  Less at other vacuum stores.  A few minutes to repalce by the user.  Viola.  Like new again.

Like I said, different strokes for different folks.   I'm pleased with the purchase of 4 new ORECK Classic XL-s and the 3 donees are too.  That's all that matters to me and my use of my $600!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You still can't imbed it in carpet.

No meaning nor relevence to you because it would defeat you.  How much kapok do you kep in the house?  Remember,  you are not the only one whose opinion counts. Many homes have baking soda.

ANYONE WHO HAS MORE  KAPOK THAN BAKING SODA IN THEIR HOME PLEASE TELL US.

HARDSELL wrote:

You're silly bordering on ridiculous.  Kapoc is an industry test for carpet cleaners.  Has been for years.  Most if not all independent vacuum stores use it.  It simulates real life home grown rug and carpet debris like pet hair, thread, wool and cotton nap.  All these cling to rugs and carpet surfaces.  Making it a valid test and substance usage.  What does baking soda similate? 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

But not dyson!  Sold the DC07 after 3 years.  Bought a DC14.  Returned the DC14.  Bought a Royal Eminence?  No HARDSELL.  That doesn't compute with me.  Any more than a non-sensical baking soda test.  Make a mistake 40 years ago and chalk it up to youthful exuberance.  Make it again now? No pass this time. 

Still haven't re-bought the best brand you claim to have ever owned.  Although the prices are down to $299 before discounts and cash back. 

Carmine D.

ASTM standards are the (agreed upon) standards that matter.  If a vacuum is a good Kaypoc-picker-upper can this be trusted to translate into a good ASTM winner?        DIB

CarmineD wrote:

Baking Soda is similar to dust.  This would quickly clog your Oreck.  You could substitute capture, however we already know that many vacs can't handle it.

I believe itt was Karl who vacuumed sheet rock dust with a Dyson and it suffered no ill effects.  Your Oreck could not handle this.

I do not have a dog so no need for the Kapok.  I do live in an area where I get lots of dust in my home. 

Maybe the pro testers should use a substitute for Kapok.  I have contended for years that their testing does not accurately simulate what is actuallly vacuumed in a home.

CarmineD wrote:

I kept the Oreck and others for a few days only because the 07 made it look like a toy.  Compute that.

You need to understand that what I currently use is acceptable until I get the urge to replace them.  Other purchases and expenses take priority over vacuums. 

Where is your Hoover Z and Fusion.  You told us how great the Z was (years ago) now the Oreck is better than sliced bread.

CarmineD wrote:

I do not have a dog.  The DC07 picked up all those things that you mention in 1 pass.  The others that I tried (and currently own)did not.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

ASTM is the industry recognized standard world wide.  To answer your question: Yes and no.  Kapoc is not the only test of the ASTM but one of them.  Consumer Reports recently added the pet hair test which I suspect is a variation of the industry's standard kapoc.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

Have to disagree again.  ORECK has such a large surface area of paper bag, you would have to pick up huge amounts of any substance like capture, epsom salt, baking soda, construction dust etc. to clog the bag and shut down all suction completely.  My sense is you probably can't unless you decide that you want to do that and proceed to acocmplish your objective.  

But, as we already agreed, when large amounts of any foreign substances spill in the house, the first line of attack is the dust pan and broom.  Then the vacuum.

Carmine D. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

I want to focus on this statement because I think it is critical to dyson's decline among its most ardent fans in the UK and other markets. 

When you are a vacuum maker and sell exclusively high priced vacuums through primarily big box stores you will meet with huge sales resistance/declines during hard economic times.  For exactly the reason you stated above.

If dyson can't sell you now, with its latest and greatest, an ardent believer and past dyson user, who then? Not an ORECK and HOOVER buyer/user like me.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL:

You appear from most recent posts to be  stuck in a conflict of money and feelings.  On one hand you refuse to purchase a new dyson even with the lower discounted dyson prices.  But you argue that the DC07 was the best of the vacuums you own and the new dyson models are even better.  The two points of view are conflicting and a contradiction.  Else you just post dyson drivel as a past user and have no intentions to put your money where your mouth is.  

You might impugn ORECK-s and my use and purchases.  I bought 4 in slightly more than one year.  You bought one dyson and sold it.  Bought another dyson DC14 and returned it because you didn't like it.  But you rave about dyson.  A contradiction.  For you Latin buffs: a non-sequitur.  In fact: 2 non-sequitors. 

How do you reconcile these differences in your mind's eye?  Especially here in your dyson posts.  How can you rant and rave about a vacuum that you sold/returned and still refuse to buy a new one?  Is a couple of hundred dyson bucks [chump change for a dyson lover] that important to you to forego using the best vacuum you have ever owned?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,  first mony is not a problem.  I have made some good investments and even with al the toys that I have owned I still did not strap myself financially,  I bought $2000 worth of golf clubs last year.  May buy more this year.  I have owned various high end lawn mowers, TV's and audio equipment in recent years.

I just purchased a new lawn mower this past week.  I will now sell my 1 year old mower because it is in excelleent condition.  The new one is no better.  I just like change.  I prefer to be outdoors this time of year and have no interest in playing with vacuums.

I bought one Oreck and returned it within a few days.  I can't blame you for giving 3 away.  I would not keep them either. 

I reconcile the differences because I culled Oreck, Hoover, Kenmore and Panasonic. within 30 days of purchase.   That should tell you my feelings toward them.  The Kirby and Royal are very good vacuums until I decide to get another Dyson. 

Did you ever tell us why you do not use a Hoover Z?  You never mention your Hoovers since getting the Oreck.  I wonder why and old pro missed out on a better than Hoover vac all these years.

I still remain loyal to Dyson.  You switched to Oreck.

Thanks for giving me my laugh of the day.

Hello HARDSELL:

I'm too young to play golf so $2000 in clubs would be a waste of money for me.  Maybe when I get older I'll take up the sport.  We have alot of greens here even right on the Community grounds.

I can't answer all your questions at the same time, because I realize you have limited memory and recall capacity.

Why?  I've said several times on the Forum what I did with the HOOVER Z-s.  I think I even messaged you privately about them at least once.  You forgot.  It happens when you get old.

My first HOOVER Z I owned from March to August 2006 in Virginia, shortly after it came out.  I got a deal from the local BEST BUY.  I used it while I was sprucing up the homestead for sale.  Like Carl Prohlman I too used it for dry wall patching after removing pictures, repairing wall board cracks, debris from upgrading all the kitchen appliances [including meeting new building codes], replacing old insulation in the attic and basement, and re painting the entire house almost 3000 square feet.  The HOOVER Z did very well.  I left the Z for the agent selling the house to use and for the new owners after the sale.  I mentioned too, you forgot, that the selling agent initially asked us to replace the carpets to sell the house.  She changed her mind after I vacuumed the carpets with the Z and she took another closer look.  The carpets were 23 years old.

Now the 2nd Z.  I purchased this and gifted to a local Church.  The Church has been using since November 2007.  I mentioned on here that the Z was used to vacuum up the flowers and plants that fell on the rug during the Holy Week of Easter.  I watched the young lady, not the maintenence man who had blew out his knee, use the HOOVER Z.  There were about 10-12 Church volunteers assiting in the clean up in preparation of Easter Sunday Masses.  All were impressed with the Z, not knowing I gifted it.  Read on.

The worship area is currently undergoing a new face lift after 9 years.  Drywall, painting etc.  Guess what vacuum is being used?  Right! The HOOVER Z!  Very good.  You catch on quick.

Having used the ORECK for a year, and my dear Wife loving it, I gifted the HOOVER WT away several weeks ago.  I mentioned that too before here at least once.  To another new Church starting up in need of a vacuum.  It will be 2 years in August.  But looks and runs like new.  The WT is 17 pounds.  The ORECK is 8.  I vacuum daily.  I have a bad back.  Guess what vacuum is easier to use?  ORECK!  Right.  Very good.  You are learning quickly!

Sorry, but unlike you I never owned a HOOVER FUSION, save the FUSION razor and my dear Wife who rented the FORD car recently and is so impressed she wants to buy one.  We might.

Now, I think I got it all answered for you.  But if not, let me know.  I'll do my best.  I say with almost absolutely certainty that I will buy more ORECK-s.  I like the product, the company, the warranty and the fact that its made in the USA for over 45 years. 

Sad that the HOOVER Z came when it did: During the throes of a major takeover with uncertainty and poor national economic conditions.  It has many desirable features which are patented and/or under review for patent.   I enjoyed using the HOOVER Z.  More so than the dyson DC07 yellow [a loaner] and pink [owned].  The former worked OK for my 23 year old rugs in Virginia.  Not as good as the Z.  The latter failed me miserably on my new rugs in my LV home.   

Carmine D.

 

The thing about history is it is destened to be repeated.

Remember the infamous Oreck XL21 thread?

Hardsell, Carmine, I admire both of you for your convictions and knowledge.   So, How about those Filter Queens?

Just wrote:

Hello Just:

Made in the USA, like ORECK-s.  And little to no innovation and changes in design, form and function for years just like ORECK.  Typically used by vacuum shops as their back room and under the work bench vacuum.  How's that for starters? 

Sounds like the beginnings of another thread!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Sounds perfect--you wanna start it or shall I?

Then let's do Air-Way (now deceased)

I have never had these machines, but really liked them.

Just:

Both wonderful brands and vacuums that got stuck in time.  Or maybe not.  Despite their aderence to original form and function and lack of innovation, they remain classics in the vacuum industry.  Now and forever.

Thanks for starting the new thread.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

I took your suggestion and transferred your response to the appropriate thread.

You' re obcessed over baking soda and belts.  I don't mind a $2-$3 belt change every 4-5-6 months for a $200 ORECK.  At the end of 5 years, the total cost is $20-$30.  Chump change for a little old vacuum man like me. 

No different than having to wash and dry filters every 4-5-6 months except a dyson runs $500 plus.  ANd replacement filters for dry spares are very costly, if you can find them.  More like $20 to $30 a pop.  And you can't scarf up $299 for a new vacuum let alone purchasing/maintaining/replacing pre-post motor filters too.  

If you kept your dyson DC07/14 long enough, you'd need a belt/clutch replacement.  You're talking $130.  I understand why you sold your DC07 after 3 years and bought a Royal Eminence.  That's called a smart move! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine understang.  That is an oxymoron.

Hello HARDSELL:

Is oxymoron another baking soda test for ORECK?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

No. The oxymoron is kapok being used in homes.

Sorry HARDSELL:

Not homes.  But, in the independent vacuum stores.  Whenever a customer asks about how good/bad a dyson is, out comes the kapoc.  Toss some on the rug and ask the potential dyson customer to pick it up with a dyson DC07/14.  The result nixes the dyson sale and interest for good. 

Then the store owner/operator does the kapoc test with his/her vacuum[s] of choice.  Like the ORECK.  The new vacuum sale is made. 

Dyson and the kapoc test have revolutionized and reinvigorated the sales of all non-dyson vacuums in the independent vacuum stores.  I'm told its the best demo test to nix a dyson and sell another brand than any other demo in the vacuum industry.    

Carmine D.

Bag Capacity size of the ORECK upright is 6 quarts.  That's 1.5 gallons.  If that is not the largest in the industry [both bagged and bagless], it is certainly a close second to the largest bagged vacuum capacity. 

Bagless vacuums' capacities  [read dirt bins of bagless vacuums] don't make the short list of the largest.  Not even the long list if all bagged vacuums are included.

Carmine D,

CarmineD wrote:

I see you are still grasping for a life preserver.  It would take a year for an Oreck to suck up that much dirt.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

A new dyson DC25 would have to be dumped at least 4 times by the user to only one ORECK bag change after picking up equal amounts of baking soda.  And ORECK would take less time to do the job!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You have performed this test. Right?

HARDSELL wrote:

Absolutely not.  It's a bogus test.  I told you that.  A 6 quart bag holds more than a 1 1/2 quart dirt bin.  Do the math.  4 bin dumps to one bag change for baking soda.  My sense is the dirt bin will have to be dumped even more than 4 times.  And you will have to clean the pre-motor filter at least once and more likely again after the job.  

ORECK will have the job done after the first dirt bin dumping and still be picking up baking soda with more room left in the bag.  Edge cleaning grooves on the ORECK soleplate plus the largest edge brushing whiskers in the vacuum industry are wonderful features for barefloor cleaning including baking soda.  Too bad your favorite bagless brand has neither.  Of course, you will probably have to convert to tool suction mode.  While you are fiddling with the hose and wands, ORECK will be done.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

My sense is the Orreck will require changing several bags to be able to pick up 6 qts of baking soda.  Before you start your BS opinions just do the test and report back.  Opinions are like ash holes.  this includes mine and yours.

HARDSELL:

Your sense is non-sense.  Just like your bogus baking soda tests.  ORECK devours everything on the floors including baking soda if it were there.  And remarkably for its lightweight and size, in less time, with less effort, and using less electrical energy than your full sized, overpriced [by your own admission] underperforming bagless piece of bootleg bojack nothing excuse for a vacuum. 

In a few months, the big box stores will relegate them to discountinued and clearance aisles where they belong.  To make room for real vacuum cleaners that are worthy of being called by the name and capable of being sold.  And when they do, I hope you are still posting here, so I can direct you to the stores.  Then you can tell us how cheaply you bought the best Chinaville slave labor made vacuum that you can't live without.  Except you always have.  Might even be able to pay cash without selling your new set of golf clubs and lawnmower.  BTW, is that a bagged or bagless lawnmower?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Put your money where your mouth is.  When you prove that the Oreck will hold 6 qts of baking soda report back.  Otherwise stop all the BS.

Carmine, I have spent more than you ever made.  I can afford to pay more (in cash) than $150 like you paid for the Oreck.  Tell us what country your TV was made in.

The mower is both.  Not sure you understand that. I only mulch the lawn.  You know I do not like those filthy bags.

HARDSELL:

It seems I constantly have to educate you.  When will you ever learn?  Read carefully!

It's not how much you make that's important.  it's how much you spend. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You should learn that it is not what you read but what you comprehend.  You either have a problem with comprehension or you are an habitual liar.  I suspedt both.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

As a fan of William Shakespeare, I agree with you.  Many, like you, read him.  Few, like me, comprehend him. 

Neither a lender nor a borrower be!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Sorry HARDSELL:

Not homes.  But, in the independent vacuum stores.  Whenever a customer asks about how good/bad a dyson is, out comes the kapoc.  Toss some on the rug and ask the potential dyson customer to pick it up with a dyson DC07/14.  The result nixes the dyson sale and interest for good. 

Then the store owner/operator does the kapoc test with his/her vacuum[s] of choice.  Like the ORECK.  The new vacuum sale is made. 

Dyson and the kapoc test have revolutionized and reinvigorated the sales of all non-dyson vacuums in the independent vacuum stores.  I'm told its the best demo test to nix a dyson and sell another brand than any other demo in the vacuum industry.    

Carmine D.

---------------------------------------------

Carmine,

As you and Mole have pointed out in past posts that dishonesty was a big part of vacuum selling history and today we should assume it is no longer rampant (wink, wink).  We should put full weight in these dealers who use James’ weakest brush roll arrangement when doing a so-called “test” (wink) using Kapok.  I sleep better knowing of all the “Honest Abe’s” out there that are on the side of consumers (wink).        DIB

DIB:

The DC07 and DC14 are dyson's results after 5174 vacuum prototypes and 10 plus years of vacuum production and sales in the UK.  Sad but true.  These are the models that launched dyson in the USA, and most big box USA stores call the DC07 the best dyson seller they ever had.

At least one ardent dyson fan and admirer here still believes and posts that the DC07 WITH THE MOST airwatts of all the dysons is the best dyson of all.  Who's going to break the news to him that dyson discontinued it? 

Only took dyson 4 years to scrub the brushbar and get an industry brush roll.  In large part because it takes a DC07 and DC14 at least 9-10 passes forward and back to pick up the same amount of kapoc that all big box store upright vacuums on the market pick up in 2-3. 

Now, that's the truth with no winks and tongue in cheek. 

Now please tell me, what dyson model would you claim to be the signature dyson.  The greater dyson as some call it? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Not a bad answer.  I expected more of a defense of dealers and their testing-behavior.        DIB

P.S.  It was 5127 prototypes to get to the Dual Cyclone and most (I think) were created in his backyard carriage house.  The DC07 multi arrangement came later.

DIB:

What's an error/mistake of less than 1 percent between friends? 5127, 5174: That's a diff of 47, less than one percent.  Close enough.  Maybe Mr. D should have worked a little bit longer to get the brush roll right?

The kapoc test was obsolete in the vacuum industry for many years.  Why?  After 100 years of vacuum industry experience most uprights and canns with power heads, including the disposables sold in the big box stores, adopted industry standard brush rolls that performed well on all rugs and carpets.  Didn't need the test anymore.  It was a moot test.

Then along comes dyson with its glitzy colors, clear bin, and no clog filters that never lose suction.  And what about the suction: Mega suction called airwatts: 270.  One slight problem that all the dyson people missed: A puny brush roll.  Savvy vacuum pros, like MOLE, recognized it right away.  Laughed at the $500 price tag.  You can tell people until you are blue in the face that the dyson brush bar is so puny that it will take more time to do the same rug cleaning job as all the others can do.   They won't understand.  But show them.  And see their reaction.

Out comes the old kapoc that was sitting on the shelves collecting dust for almost 50 years.  And back to the kapoc test.  Any vacuum currently sold today K-O's a dyson DC07 and a DC14 on rugs and carpets.  Even the $50 uprights in the big box stores.  Most especially an ORECK, any model you choose.  The XL 21 Titanium with the more aggressive brush rolls than the XL, DeLuxe and Ultra,  puts a dyson DC07 and 14 to shame on rugs and carpets.

Shame on James Dyson.  Shame on his 450 engineers and his vacuum company.  Should have known better.

Now please tell me what dyson model is the signature model?  The greater dyson?  Second time I asked you.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Ant the loud mouth cowards are afraid to take the baking soda test with their Oreck.  I know you claim this to be bogus.  Once again, how many homes have baking soda vs. kapock?  Give us tghe chicken poop answer again.

Jun 6, 2008 12:29 pm

Hello DIB:

Within the past year Consumer Reports added real pet hair [cats] to its vacuum tests as well as measuring the amount of hair at start and in the bag and/or dirt bin at finish.  Both are recent tests added by CR within the last year.  As suspected, dyson fared the same with real pet hair as kapoc. 

Kapoc is a good substitute for pet hair and around the industry for years and years.  Not everyone in the vacuum industry [read indy-s] have access to real pet hair.  Kapoc is readily available.  CR made arrangements to obtain real pet hair from an animal facility close by the CU testing place.  It is continuing the practice.  Excellent thinking on CR's part.

Carmine D.

------------------------------------------------------

Hardsell,

Consumer Reports uses a 9 to 1 mix of silica sand to talc for testing.  I see Baking Soda close in nature to talc (and dust) and certainly legitimate.  I do not have a Kapok producing tree in my front yard, do you?  I bet the great majority of the world’s population does not either.  Kapok is a trick of the trade and I have lots to say of its use/abuse by dealers, later.        DIB

 

CarmineD wrote:

They could also be matched equally using baking soda.  Of coures all but Dyson are afraid of the baking soda test.

I recently read a consumer review saying that Oreck would not honor the warranty on their vacuum because Capture (or similar product) clogged it.

Really HS.  That remind me of a post here posted by one of our regulars about a brand new dyson that burned out during the customer return period.  The retailer refused to accept it for a customer credit because the user didn't clean the filters.  Said it voided the warranty and the return policy.  A rep here from dyson called it a lemon!!

I have never heard of an ORECK motor burning out during the 30 day free home trial period.  Or an ORECK motor going bad under the 3-5-8-10 year warranty periods.  Never.  If you do, post it here.  It will be a first.  I heard of one case where an ORECK motor went bad after 20 years but came with a 21 year warranty.  ORECK replaced it free: Parts and labor.

See unlike a big box retailer who doesn't stand behind the vacuum products it sells, ALL ORECK buyers/users praise ORECK for honoring its warranties.  My theory is because ORECK sells its vacuums from ORECK owned and operated stores nationwide.  Has for over 45 years. 

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
You need to read more and talk less.

CarmineD wrote:
While I don't doubt you love your Oreck I think to say that ALL Oreck customers praise Oreck for honoring warranties is a bit of a stretch.  A quick search on the net finds not everyone quite as pleased as yourself.

http://www.rateitall.com/i-6320-oreck-xl-series-upright.aspx

I am curious to know your thoughts on the Oreck Air Cleaner, something that many consider one of the worst products on the market yet it is still pushed heavily by Oreck and its stores.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

#1

Good Points

Uh, it came with an iron? And, yeah it really is light weight.

Bad Points

Not enough power, awkard cord management on canister, poor service (so far by retailer).

We had the Oreck XL for a few months when it started becoming more difficult to pick up with it. We finally took it to the retailer for an inspection (after making sure it was not the belt or bag) and they told us Resolve Carpet Cleaner (or "that white stuff" as they called it) was ruining the motor. Uh, we used "that white stuff" on our previous vacuum for serveral years with no problem. You just sprinkle the granuals on the carpet, brush them in with the brush, and vaccum thorougly as the Resolve directions state. Same as I have always done. Well apparently the Resolve "was ruining the motor." Seems to me a vacuum that cannot overcome Resolve Carpet Cleaner is poorly made. I never thought this thing had much power when we bought it, but after owing an Electrolux previously, I figured that was the way the rest of the vacuums performed, knowing Electrolux was the high end of vacuums. So anyway, this thing does not have much power or durability. The retailer is blaming us for the condition of this vaccum, even though the truth is it is cheaply made and that is why it performs as it does. We will now try to get Orek to replace the motor, but I suspect we will have no success. Also, on the canister, which has performed well, the cord has to be manually wrapped around the machine which is awkward and time consuming. Now that I have read the reviews, I see that this vacuum is commonly thought of as overpriced, underpowered, and with too narrow of a hose (easily clogs). Bottom line is there are better vacuums for about the same amount of money. Here's a wake up call to myself and everyone reading this, when you have to give away an iron with a product to sell it, it probably isn't that good of a product. Live and learn.

# 2

Bad Points

Pet hair wraps around the roller brush. The belts wear out quickly.

General Comments

I bought an Oreck XL vacuum cleaner. I have two dogs, so I vacuum almost every day. I have to stop every 10-15 minutes to clean all the dog hair off of the roller brush. The problem is even worse when the belt is worn. I have to change the belt every 1-1/2 to 2 months (not every 6 months as the manual states). I sent an email to Oreck about my problem. They suggested that I pick up the dog hair first before I vacuum? I thought that is why I bought the vacuum in the first place! Read the online reviews before you buy. Orecks are not rated very high.

# 3

Good Points

The noise helps to block out the husband/children/neighbours!!!

Bad Points

Loose handle. Drive belts pops off at every opportunity. Its styling looks old, its moveablity is out dated - stiff and basic.

General Comments

The Oreck XL will not pick up a bowling ball and the handle needs tightening after every use, the motor belts is always popping off and is so hard to get back on I have to wait for my husband to get home before I can finish cleaning. If you want back ache this is the appliance for you - its quality is truly non existent. We are looking for a better vacuum.

# 4

Good Points

light

Bad Points

doesn't work.

General Comments

The ORECK vacuum "cleaner" is advertised all the time on American radio. The ad campaign is very slick. This spokesman is a nice older soundiing guy who claims to be the gentle stately gentleman who has designed and engineered the Oreck vacuum cleaner just for you and is only interested in selliing this reliable economical machine for your benifit. DON"T BELIVE IT! They sell for about $300.00 and are about $300.00 over priced. It is such a piece of absolute garbage. The only reason it's "light" is because there's nothing to this "toy" of a machine but cheap platic. It's advertised as "hypoallergenic". WHOO EEE ! talk about a lie! The 'hypo-allergenic" filter in this thing consists of a retangular object that looks like 1/3rd of a used kitchen cleaning sponge. It's literally about 2 inches long, an inch wide and a 1/8 of an inch thick (that's about 2 millimeters for you Euros). This thing is so cheaply made that the motor doesn't even line up with the brush, so it's constently going through belts. We had it a year, went through 4 belts and an expensive brush and many smelly "cleaning sessions" before we said "screw it" and put it in the garbage pile. This is the most over priced, over advertised product I have ever seen. And don't believe the whole "30 days or your money back..." routine. They count the 30 days beginning when you order it, and must have it shipped back in the greedy little hands before the 30 days are up, so you realistically have about 4 days to try it out. If you like being kicked in the face, than buy this piece of worthless junk; otherwise buy a goat to chew on you carpet; it'll do a better job!

# 5

Good Points

Light weight.

Bad Points

I can't find anyone who does warranty work. Doesn't pick up surface or deep dirt, hair, etc. Have to order bags online.

General Comments

The Oreck XL is a very expensive vacuum that doesn't work. It throws out dust and won't pick up even surface lint. I am very disappointed. I called the company and asked for a part and they assured they would mail, but never heard from them again. Can't find anyone to do warranty work. Bags are not available except through the internet. Would not recommend. Bought top of the line, but it is not worth plugging in.

Another site showing only top rated vacuums.  Oreck failed to earn a top rating.  They had to buy an ad to be on the page.

http://www.smart-review.com/vacuumcleaners.html

Notice that the none listed tops Dyson.

FROM AN ORECK DEALER

Sorry to tell you the Oreck vacuum is the weakest vacuum I sell. Hard to put a 8 pound motor in a 8 pound vacuum. The Oreck has around 17 inches in water lift, which is how much water it can lift in a one inch tube at sea level. Most vacuums have 60 to 120+. A push carpet sweeper can take things off the top of the carpet and it has no power. The Oreck has just enough air flow to put things in the bag. The bag is dust free. To bad the swivel elbow at the fan leeks dust back into the room. I do not care what people buy as long as they know what they get. Who do you think pays for millions of dollar advertising. Yes you. Remember the original derivation of HEPA represented "High Efficiency Particulate Arresting" filter. The term "Particulate Air" conveys no meaning. So your window screens can be a hepa type filter it can stop any thing the size of your finger 100%. Look for the microns of filtrations of the bags. Suction is a made up word. Suction is the creation of a partial vacuumor

FROM  CONSUMERS

# 1

I have both an Oreck XL and a Dyson DC14 Animal. The Oreck has a bag and bags leak out when the vacuum is on. A lot of dust and fine particles can be released from the Oreck while you are using it.

Although it can lift a bowling ball due to the pressure/area trick it is not a strong vacuum. The Oreck leaves a lot of dirt behind and the roller brush is a liability. The Dyson wins the suction contest hands down particularly on bare floors because it travels low and forms a seal with the floor.

The first time I used the Dyson, I had a grinding sound coming from the vacuum in the carpet setting. I called Dyson on a Sunday morning and the service people walked me through the problem that I could fix myself. About 10 minutes after I called Dyson my problem was fixed over the phone.

There is one big drawback to a Dyson. When you first get it and use it you will be dumping the canister several times during the course of your cleaning because the Dyson is picking up so much dirt.

We have a dog and keep his hair cut short because he has a tendency to shed. We had a hair problem in the house and bag vacuums could not handle it. The Dyson not only removes the dog hair but everything else around the vacuum. It makes a suction circle which picks up everything in the vicinity of the vacuum, allowing for a better cleaning job.

The Dyson DC14 is the best vacuum cleaner we ever bought. Despite its price it is well worth every cent.

dusty wrote:

May be of interest…
Hunters Senior Vice President of Sales – Art Massey (formerly Hunter’s vice president of marketing and product development) 
demoed an air purifier on HSN back in February, 2008.  During the demonstration he said, “I coined this phrase here on HSN 
about 8 years ago folks, and this is the truth…  But you hear the other guy (Oreck) say it and he stole it from me and that’s a fact!” 
 “If you’re going to clean the air then you have to move the air.”

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

The last statement you excerpted and I quoted is the most relavant.  Why?  Was this the poster and statement that resulted in you selling the DC07 and buying the DC14?  What did you do after buying the DC14?  Return it because you didn't like it.  The poster is claiming that the dyson you bought and returned because you were dissatisfied with it, is the best and worth the money.  That contradicts your actions.

Carmine D.

Dusty:

Obviously, no product pleases everyone.  People being people are all different.  ORECK is no exception.  As are ORECK buyers and users.  But a product that has a 45 year rep and respected standing in the industry with a nationwide network of stores totalling 475 is well on the way to trying.

Even HOOVER, during its glory days of having the majority vacuum market share year after year, had many detractors: They were called Lux, Kirby, Air Way, Filter Queen, EUREKA, and ORECK buyers and users.  And I could mention others.

Air purifiers are not on my agenda.  At least not yet. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

You are partially correct.  A search will reveal both satisfied and unsatisfied customers with all brands.  I coukd have excerpted more than a few posts reporting poor performance from Orecks.

I did not have to go to great lengths to find bad reviews about Oreck.  In fact there are more positive reviews.  The same applies to Dyson.  I agree that preferences vary.  My point is that Oreck users have problems that you deny as existing.  In my research I have found many more incidents of Orecks clogging than Dyson.  No need for you to rehash the Dyson filter clogging.  If a filter does not clog where does the dust go?  Since all vacuums that you favor are know for spewing dust maybe you can answer that.  Burned out belts are a major problem for Oreck. 

It is very possible that the DC 14 was the best vacuum that the poster ever owned since he never owned a DC 07.  That person did claim the Dyson was better than the Oreck.  I owned both and share that opinion.  Where is the contradiction?    BTW,  I never claimed the DC 14 to be a poor performer.  I just prefer the 07.  I also never claimed that my current vacuums are better than Dyson.  You have stated that the Oreck is better than your Hoovers.

This site alone has 5 persons giving 5 stars to Dyson and one giving 4 stars.  None of them bashed another brand.  On the other hand you are the only one to post on an Oreck and you (as usual) only reported so that you could trash Dyson in the same review.  Since you find the Oreck to be superior to Hoover why did you fail to mention that.  All who read your posts are aware of your vehement dislike for Dyson and likely place little or no credence in your statements. 

HS:

I'd like to respond to you but it looks like this thread is heading off the screen.

Time to let it go else as Lucky1 says it will suffer the same ignominious end as the former.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

HS:
 

45 years and 475 ORECK stores speaks volumes for the company that launched

the lightweight 8 pound vacuum upright.

BTW, correcting you.  HOOVER WT is better than ORECK on rugs.  But ORECK for the

weight is a worthy second.

Carmine D.

 “If you’re going to clean the air then you have to move the air.”

DIB:
This is a statement of fact you quoted.  
Statements of fact are not "coined" by authors at the exclusion of use by all others.  
If this gentleman believes they are, and you too, then he and you have a skewed sense of perspective.
Certainly one I do not hold.
Carmine D.

Reputations are not always built on truths.  Priests were respected and trusted for hundreds of years.  I think you know why there is now some doubt about the clergy.

HS:

This did not get passed me.  It's irrelevant in the thread here about vacuums.  I will be happy to engage you off line on the topic.  It is near and dear to my heart and my faith.  Jsut let me know.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Why is it irrevelant?  I do not consider it to be blasphemous. .  You continually bash Dyson when it is not revelant to the topic.  I was only making a point that one can not always rely on reputation.

If it is too hot inthe kitchenm  GET OUT

HS:

I have never shunned hot topics on any Forum.  But, this is not a Forum about religion and faith. 

It's about vacuums.  In particular, this thread is about ORECK and how it measures up to other

vacuums.  Which, I might add, is the standard bearer for all the lightweight vacuums that followed.

Even your favorite the dyson, which recently entered the market with a DC24 supposed lightweight

vacuum with full size performance.  Except unlike the ORECK bag that has a 6 quart dirt capacity, the DC24 has a peanut can dirt bin capacity.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I have to agree with you.  Dyson needs the 6 qt bin because it picks up so much more than Oreck.

It would take a year to fill an Oreck bag.  Of course it probably not fill because it would loose so much suction it half full.  Suction is already poor per reports.

CarmineD wrote:
Are you back peddling?  It seemed obvious to me that was the case but as you are very fond of quoting and highlighting posts I offer you the following from one of your previous messages.

See unlike a big box retailer who doesn't stand behind the vacuum products it sells, ALL ORECK buyers/users praise ORECK for honoring its warranties.

I simply pointed out that this wasn't true and provided evidence to back it up.

Dusty

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell:  Bag makers (3M included) and vacuum manufacturers do not like the phrase "suction loss", they instead use and bury in their manuals the clandestine term "Low pressure loss."  Why?  Because the average consumer has no idea what this term means.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

ou are beginning to sound like Carmine.  Call it what you wish.  Performance declines as the bag fills.

Dear Boneheads.

When a filter bag fills with debris and other objects the suction does not decrease the cfm or the speed of the air starts to decrease, take a bag of your choice loaded to the max install back in the cleaner put your suction meter on the suction port where does the needle go? put a fresh bag in the machine run the test again,where does the needle go? it has the same suction does it not?

Watch how fast the needle moves,theres the trick.

For the last time all vacuums dont loose suction,[except when the hoses or filters are blocked and no air can get through,]

the only usefull meaning in vacuum performance is air movement or cubic feet of air per minute,,,,,,,

Heres another myth but makes for a good pitch, an upright moves the air faster so it must clean better than a tank or canister right,


MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL, DIB:

Dyson performance declines as its filters clog.  Even burn out the motor.  Not so with paper bags.  Mr. Dyson and the dyson heads admit this with the latest dysons: DC24/25.  Hence, the reason for the required [read mandatory] filter maintenance to keep the warranty effective.  We also know even the soon to be discontinued dyson models DC07 and DC14 clogged, lost suction, lost performance and burned out motors.  Many have been returned to the big box retailers and indy dealers for those reasons.  These are the dyson refurbs that are flooding the market.  And most likely the reason you will not state the filter cleaning reasons on the latest dyson DC24/25. 

Begs the question: Why should a vacuum consumer pay $500 plus for a dyson with filters that clog [DC24/25] and require mandatory monthly/quarterly user maintenance to keep them clean?  Any big box store vacuum can do as well, if not better, for much less money and work.  Especially if they are not vacuuming the Indy/Daytona 500 race tracks, just their homes.

Carmine D.

Even the most ardent anti-ORECK-ers here admit that the ORECK staff and stores are professional and pristine.  Always! 

I have to impute and deduct that the same degree of professionalism goes into the making of the ORECK products, parts, repairs, and warranty coverage.  Despite one or two anti ORECK-ers who may anonymously post otherwise.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Once again you are posting as you want it to be and not like it is.

How many here have admitted this?

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I have a habit to stop in and observe vacuum stores in operation.  ORECK included.  Based on my observations, over 50 plus years, ORECK is the model for a vacuum store operation.  Several regular posters here in the vacuum business have made similar comments, not just me.  

Although, MOLE has the patent on the bagless model on display in his showroom floor.  His sales pitch that kills the bagless vacuum sale is poignant.  Some, like DIB who has been conspicuously absent from here by his silence, may say it's a trick of the trade.  I prefer to say that it is the truth of the trade.  The crux of the matter for the bagless vacuum weaknesses.  Sheer genius on MOLE's part, as Lucky 1 attests.

The more appropriate question you should ask is this: Has anyone here ever posted that they found an ORECK store, in the course of their vacuum shopping and buying, that does not have a professional appearance with professional staff?  Inside and outside.  Where are these stores located, if there are any?

As I mentioned of all the 475 ORECK stores opened, not one has ever closed.  A testament to their operations.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Just the facts please.

How many here have admitted this?

I dont have the exact numbers but many oreck stores are owned by floorcare professionals that have years in the business. ORECK pays the freight [the overhead] its up to the dealer where he or she wants to take it from there.

A couple of friends of mine own ORECK stores,and have done O.K. because of the constant advertising,which is also payed in part by the dealer group,its built into the price.

MOLE

HS:

The facts speak for themselves as always.  45 years in business and 475 stores nationwide.  ORECK is the standard bearer for lightweight vacuums that all others are measured against. 

Carmine D.

Hello MOLE:

I've talked and still do with the ORECK store owners and managers when I have occasion.  Inevitably they speak highly of the business relationship with ORECK.  Even those who are no longer with ORECK have only praise for the products, people, and business experience.

Many of the ORECK stores' staff people go to ORECK after spending time with other vacuum brands, like Kirby, Electrolux, Rainbow and even HOOVER.  They usually rate ORECK as good, and more often better, than the others for employee-employer relations. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

TELL US WHICH ANTI-ORECKER ON HERE MADE THIS STATEMENT.  THIS IS MY THIRD REQUEST FOR THE INFO AND YOU HAVE FAILED ONCE AGAIN IN ANSWERING.  

My good HS: 

I am the most ardent anti-Orecker, bar none.  Over 40 plus years in the business and never sold a new ORECK.  Turned Dave down when he wanted me to sell them.  Refused.  How much more anti-ORECK can you be?  Even Dusty, who pushes dyson as the best bagless over many bagged vacuums, sells ORECK-s.  Finally I bought one to make my dear Wife happy after she saw and used one many years ago.  She never stopped raving and ranting about it.  Said she loved the way it devoured this white powdery stuff in the store's demo.  She said it would do the same for all the sand.  She was right.  ORECK is the best vacuum we've used in my our home since the HOOVER WT!

Over the course of my 50 years in the vacuum business, I've personally and professionally visited at least 100 ORECK stores nationwide from coast to coast.  Based on my personal and professional opinion, I admit that they are the model for all vacuum stores to emulate. 

Carmine D.

HS:

ORECK provides a free in home 30 day trial.  If not 100 percent satisfied during that time, customers can return the vacuum free of charge and keep the giveaways. 

I presume if they keep the ORECK-s, they're satisfied.  If not, they don't buy and return.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

WEASEL,

This is your first anti-Oreck statement.  You really do not respond well when caught lieing.

HARDSELL:

In over 40 years of business, I never sold a new ORECK.  I never used a new ORECK personally until April 2007.  I'm the pro-HOOVER poster.  Right?  Isn't that what you always say.

You don't have to say anti-ORECK words to be.  Didn't you learn one of life's lessons:  Actions speak louder and longer than words.  I'm living and breathing proof! 

As I said, even the most anti-ORECK-er [me] agrees that the ORECK stores and staff are top notch in the industry.  Not because I will/wish them to be.  I take no credit for ORECK's success and business professionalism.  The ORECK stores and staffs are models for the industry to emulate. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Still trying to weasel out of your statement.  Take your medicine and calm down.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hardsell:  Bag makers (3M included) and vacuum manufacturers do not like the phrase "suction loss", they instead approve and bury in their manuals the clandestine term "Low pressure loss."  Why?  Because the average consumer has no idea what this term means.        DIB

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell,

I researched and brought to light that 3M (who many believe invented the best bag filter – the Filtrete) and bagged vacuum manufacturers do admit that their filters (the bag) suffer with suction loss.  But instead of using an easy to understand phrase of "suction loss" they use the techno term for it… “Low Pressure Drop”.  And because Low Pressure Drop means absolutely nothing to the masses, these guys get away with tricky messaging.  And for this you say sound like Carmine?  Hardly!        DIB

Heres something else for you to research,if a vacuum cleaner produces no vacuum ,HOW CAN THEY CALL IT A VACUUM CLEANER.

Now we will see if you have any history on the subject...........


REGARDS

MOLE

Hello MOLE:

Wasn't it an Englishman named Hubert Cecil Booth who first coined the word vacuum after his invention and his company.  In fact he went from house to house with his horse drawn street vacuum where the residents inside would hold "vacuum tea parties."  The muckety mucks would sip tea while the hoses from the street vacuum were shuffled into the open windows to do the house vacuuming.  Fast forward one hundred years and ORECK owners hold ORECK parties.  History repeating itself.

The Booth contraption was called a Puffing Billy.  About the turn of the 20 Century.  Then Spangler came along in 1907 in the USA with his portable version.   Boss Hoover marketed it for $75.  Should have called it "spangling" rather "hoovering."

Carmine D. 

When I had a minor repair done on my Royal upright, the manager told me that they have discontinued doing warranty work for many of the big box vacuums due to problems getting reimbursed.   They also have a lot of problems getting parts from big box vacuum companies.  He then sang the praises of dealing with Oreck.   Oreck stands by their products and supports the dealers, at least according to this guy.  

CarmineD wrote:

I'll bet those Oreck parties are a blast.  I have visions of all those folks at the nursing home sitting around drinking Geratol and swallowing pills while the janitor vacuums with the Oreck.

Those are not ORECK parties,there clinics on vacuum cleaning usage,sort of like physical therapy,if you can change the belt and brushroll in less than 3 hours,then a party is thrown in your honor,
Then you are known as the vacuum KING or QUEEN.

Then if you can change the fan and fan case,you are on the board of directors,and in charge of research and development.[Sorry H.S. your not qualified]

HAPPY $#%*MING

MOLE

I'm back, after a long and much-needed break.  Seems Carmine is at it again as usual

This thread has taken quite an interesting turn.  As anti-Oreck as I am (overpriced electric broom combined with a useless handheld, what a great combination) I have also mentioned before that the Oreck stores *are* clean, organized, and well-managed, with the attendants being very friendly.  Of course what has not been said is there is a reason for that...they don't get any business!  The few times I have gone into Oreck stores, I was always the only visitor there, and when I acted interested I was shown every machine they had.  You could tell they were laying it on thick too, they must be desperate for sales the way they seem to kiss the customer's @$$ so much.

The problem I have, and the reason I'm anti-Oreck, is that they do not have to produce vacuums this way, they CHOOSE to.  They could EASILY improve the design for performance (dare I say it could use its own tools, but then they wouldn't be profiting off of that hand vac).  I don't see how the diameter of the fan and fan chamber couldn't be increased while still keeping the current low-profile housing (after all it is the handle pivot that is the fan chamber), and a lifetime geared or serpentine belt added while keeping the current motor so as not to compromise size or weight too much.  Eureka showed us that you can have a small low-amperage motor and a regular-size fan with no problems and decent performance, and Tacony showed us that you can have a lifetime belt on a single-motor lightweight upright (throwing the claim of "Oh it only has one motor, a lifetime belt won't work" out the window).  I don't see why Oreck can't keep up with the times and update. 

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Missed you Motor, welcome back.  I recall you did, but didn't want to say.  Since I consider myself at least at one time as anti-ORECK as you.  And HS only asked for one.  JUST made the same comment too about the ORECK store he visited.  If I recall, he got a great deal on a RICCAR and bought it. 

The ORECK XL-21 Titanium has a bigger fan, more powerful motor, and uses less electricity than the smaller ORECK motors.  Also has a more aggressive brush roll.  All the other ORECK-s use the same motor.

Carmine D.

I think that ORECK has entrenched itself in the upright for the carpet cleaning and the portable canister for the other stuff,very old school selling technique.The upright is their market,the dealers tend to shy away from the dutch tech powerteam and the orbiter,the air cleaning stuff is also a sideline.Its more or less a window dressing.The XL series uprights are only profitable for the dealers in the top end stuff [ like the XL21 titanium,the internet and orecks own web site kills the high end machines. I would really be pushing the customer out the door at 799.00, the dealers are real gun shy on quoting this machine,because its the same response from the customer[thank you for your time and can i have a brochure].

ORECKS BEST DEAL IS THE CHEAPO 299.00 PACKAGE WITH THE GIVE AWAYS.

MOLE

MOLE:

I got 4 at $150 each without the giveaways.  Paid the shipping of $20 per.  And a one year warranty rather than the 3 years.  Tho I hear the cordless iron is a decent product.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
There seems to be a little controversy on this,Was the whirlwind in the mid or late 1800's,the first suction machine?. Royal at the time known as the P.A. Geier company started in 1905, Kirby claims 1906,

And the OHIO TUECK, dont know the date,

I really dont know BOOTH got the credit?

mole

CarmineD wrote:
Were you wearing a mask and carrying the 44 magnum.


MOLE

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

You continue to be an habitual liar.  Nothing that you have said indicates that you are anti-Oreck, until you could not produce a name for anyone who complimented the Oreck stores.

Who are you referring to as getting a Riccar and making a comment about the store they visited.

MH is right all the way, especially about no customers in the store. 

I suspect htat the largest % of sales are direct order so the customer gets a gift.  Remember that Oreck has to resort to gimmeckry to sell vacuums.

mole wrote:

The Booth saga is ancient vacuum history.  My memory is not that good. 

Up to the time [late 1890's], cleaning dust was done by blowing the dirt out and catching it.  Save the push and pull carpet sweepers by BISSELL and the like that were around in the late 1800-s.  And the hand pump suction style cleaners around the early 1900-s/turn of the 20th Century.  The latter hand powered carried a 1907 'vacuum' patent by law.

Booth got the idea of suction and described it to an American inventor who had a 'blowing' contraption demoed at the London's Empire Music Hall.  It was used to clean railway carriages.  Booth was a fairground wheel engineer and got the idea to add a fan creating vacuum which sucks dirt rather than blows.  He used petro to power the motor.  He patented his vacuum cleaner in 1901 and launched the British Vacuum Cleaner Company to market the Puffing Billy.  Red box on wheels.  Like a fire engine.  Uniformed men did the cleaning by passing flexible tubes [hoses] through the windows of residences and sucking out the dust.  Booth didn't want to market just hire out.  To my knowledge that was the first usage of the word 'vacuum.' Belongs to a Brit.

Spangler and HOOVER united in the USA in 1907 and mass marketed the HOOVER uprights in 1908 including in Great Britain by 1912.  HOOVER were the first mass produced vacuums for sale [$75] in the USA .  Royal in the USA was earlier [1905] with a tank not an upright.  Electrolux too [in Sweden] around 1913 with a tank, the Lux 1.  Not sure about Kirby being around that early in the game  First, I recall KIRBY, was the early 30's.   Tueck was a push power fan operated upright.  Primitive.  Better than the pump suction hand vacuums at the time [around turn of the 20th century].  The latter similar to insect and vegetable sprayers were produced in cities that had metal and iron foundries for local sales and use.

We have a poster here with hereditary links to Kirby and is the owner of an Ohio Tueck.  Maybe Jim Kirby can assist with some of this vacuum history.

Carmine D

BEST BUY on-line now carries ORECK vacuums.  One talked about here the XL21 gets 4 out of 5 stars based on 40 reviews.  The BEST BUY Site says the following verbatim:

Oreck XL21. It's destined to become the standard by which all other vacuums are judged because it comes with an unprecedented 21-year Guarantee and 21 years of FREE tune-ups! From the bottom of its double-helix, high-speed, pile-lifting roller brushes, to the top of its redesigned comfort fit Helping Hand Handle, the XL21 delivers unsurpassed power and maneuverability.

http://www.bestbuys.com/p24159261-Oreck-XL21-Bagged-Upright-Vacuum--reviews.html

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
This isn't Best Buy...it's Best Buys, which has nothing to do with the Best Buy chain. Best Buys is simply an affiliate for Shopping.com and gets paid by sending traffic to participating merchants.

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote:

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

Thank you again.  You are correct.  I was wrong.  Interesting rating for the ORECK XL 21.   Of course only 40 reviews, but still an 80 percent overall.  Not too bad.

Carmine D.

DIB:

Please correct me if I'm wrong [As Dusty did].

It appears that the notice of the trademark is published for comment and in particular for "protest/opposition."  I presume the reason for this is to allow ORECK to stake its claim as originator and/or others to protest/oppose as originator.  During this time of notice, why didn't the supposed originator protest?  And if he fails to do so, isn't he/she preempted from doing so after the due date? 

In other words, anyone could say they were first.  But, if you didn't record/protest the official recordation within the time period allowed, you are preempted from any legal recourse.  In other words, you're out of luck.  ORECK wins by virtue of recording first and not meeting with any official protest in the alloted time to do so.  Is this correct from your perspective?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Same could be said for the Dyson DC15.  Four and a half stars out of five.

http://www.bestbuys.com/p24122475-Dyson-DC15-All-Floors---The-Ball-Bagless-Upright-Cyclonic-Vacuum--reviews.html

To each their own, shall we say.

Dusty