Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

What and how long will it take jaydee to realize that he needs to enter the low to middle price range vacuum market to stay competitive in the USA in the big box stores' venue?

Any news yet on the 2007 dyson sales? 

Carmine D.

Hello Mole:

Dyson certainly is not following the Oreck sales/service model here in the USA.  I don't know about the UK.  But my sense is that after being in the UK for 25 years, it does not.  

Lucky1 and you hit the nail on the head.  Dyson knows how to sell his product with catchy literature, phrases and TV ads.  Mr. Dyson admits that his products are flawed.  Classic is the flawed brush roll on the DC07 and DC14.  Common knowledge in the industry.  Even the BEST BUY sales staff say so.  In interviews Mr. Dyson encourages his people to try ideas and ways that will fail.  It's served dyson/him well.  But his timing for export to the USA was superb in April 2002.  Ironically he can't take credit for that move.  It was the management of BEST BUY that persuaded him to do so when he did.  In the tougher economic environment, it will be interesting to see how dyson sales fare.  We've already seen some chinks developing in the armor: Dyson MAP is out the window [retailers just call the advertised sale a clearance, or in the case of Wal*Mart a price roll-back], steep discounts of 20 percent plus Giftcards and store cash back are common practice now.   These big box stores' sales incentives for dysons were unheard of a few years ago.  The times they are a changin.  Recall all the dyson supporters who said this would never happen with dyson in all their posts.   A few posters [who no longer use their same logos/are absent on this Forum] even said dyson would kill off all the vacuum competition in a year/two.  Haven't seen that come to pass.  Just the posters who said so.

What's that music I hear playing in the background: The party's over.

Ironically, MH pointed out the downfall of Fantom vacuums were the inferior high priced filters.  What has dyson done with filters in its latest and greatest products?  From cleaning every 6 months to now every 3 or less months.  What happens when you wash and dry filters?  They lose filter efficiency.  Solution: Buy more.  Fantom was a niche vacuum.  If we believe the dyson sales data posted here, dyson has a 10 percent market share.  IN GOOD ECONOMIC TIMES.  What lies ahead?  50 years from now will dyson still have a presence in the US vacuum market like Oreck, HOOVER and others, let alone 10 percent or more?  Time will tell. 

What's next for dyson in the USA?  Sales have waned.  Why?  Look at all the big box incentives.  Dyson has to compete with the less expensive disposables.  Read: Cheap.  If dyson wants to survive in the US vacuum market with the big box retailers as its primary venue, it will have to have $200 and less vacuums.  I predict those are the next products on the dyson agenda.

Carmine D.

I wasn't trying to imply that an indy would try to sell another brand for higher profit.  My contention is that the indys who do not sell Dyson do the most complaining. 

I have said many times that all the indy brands must require a lot of parts or supplies.  If not how do the stores stay in business?  I do not believe that there is enough profit or units sold by indys to keep in business.

Used vacuums (way before Dyson) have always been prominent on the internet and in many stores that deal in refurb products. 

I like Dyson but I will be the first to admit that they are overpriced.  So was Hoover and others.  I paid $400 for a Hoover that can now be purchased for less than 1/2 that amount.

Lucky1:

I agree with your dyson conclusions and have heard the same from others.  There is money to be made on dyson sales and the big box retailers made it already.  Independent vacuum store owners can't compete with them for sales.  It's interesting that you say you won't sell the dyson brand because you want to have satisfied customers.  Other vacuum store brands are better for the money.  I've talked with vacuum store owners and operators here in LV and on the east coast who say the exact same as you.  They will only sell the dyson brand if a customer specifically asks.  And also in order to repair and have access to dyson parts.  Then, only with caveats on the dyson shortcomings to the buyer and after a comparative vacuum brands' demo-ing. 

You're right.  Vacuum customers buy a dyson from a big box retailer/HSN and if they dislike it, they blame themselves.  But if they buy from you/independent vacuum store owner, it's your fault.  They return and say: You sold me a lemon and/or a piece of high price plastic junk.   Most store owners and operators would agree with you.  Why do vacuum customers do this?  I think because you and the independents are the industry experts and professionals.    They expect you to sell the best for the money.  Not the best for the profit.

Carmine D.

Lucky,

What are the top 1,2,3 or 4 complaints you hear at your shop from "dissatisfied [Dyson] customers"?        DIB

Selling $656,000,000.00 (in today’s dollars) worth of inventions in 3 years time, indeed is a lot of money and for some it is a lot to get their heads around.  Dyson most likely was paid royalties on gross dollars made.  Do you know a better and easier way to make this kind of money in the vacuum business?        DIB

Hi DIB:

Yes, and I mentioned it before.  Invest all the $6.9 MILLION proceeds of a successful lawsuit into Bershire Hathaway in 2000 and now it would be worth over $1.6 billion [in today's dollars].  B-H owns Kirby in addition to other investments.  And do nothing except sit at my computer and exercise the stock buy.  Even better there are no expenses and costs to offset the $656 Million in sales.  Clear profit.

Carmine D.

Hey Carmine,

Pushing paper is not James’ “gift”.  Kirby? - come on man, investing in antiques? - What’s fun about that?  Today, the UK’s “Sunday Times” values James total worth at $2,160,000,000 and he still collects on average $120,000,000 per year from Dyson sales.  And he can close down his R&D by half and pay off another $50 million annually in business debts (making the company worth that much more).  James is money up by following his God given gift/s.        DIB

My guy [Warren Buffett, B-H is an antique at 77 just like the Kirby company he owns which has been around since the 1930's ] is bigger than your guy [James Dyson, a business youngin].  Mr. Buffett  according to Forbes in March 2008 is the richest in the world with $62 BILLION and he gifted over $30 BILLION to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation last year.  Mr. Dyson according to the same source is ranked 743 with $1.6 BILLION.   I'll stick with B-H.  I'm a retired antique. The fun for me is keeping count.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Please do not misunderstand, Kirby the product is an antique not people.  I like Mr. Buffet as many do, although I am doing my best to understand his friendship with predatory business men i.e. Bill Gates

Just taking a quick look at the Kirby/Scott latest patents it seems they have no patented innovations that can be called revolutionary or that the competition is dying to copy.  But I can be wrong.  Simply looking at the product, one sees nothing external that screams revolution.  The Kirby profile I found online showed Kirby with $460m in sales.

My quote of Dyson’s current wealth was taken from this UK online newspaper (at bottom of Dyson article).  And it states James is worth over $2b.  But upon closer inspection it looks like a typo and the wealth I quoted looks to be from 2007 but the story was mistyped, and the typo read 2008.  James like many UK billionaires wealth decreased, James’ estimated worth this year is only $1.5b as you quoted.  I fully believe new non-vacuum appliances will be coming and be profitable.

Investing in BH is investing in many, many corporations not just Kirby.  Kirby would of never paid as does James’ namesake.        DIB

Hello DIB:

I did not want to hone in on Kirby which is by all means a niche vacuum and market for sales.  Albeit one that has been steady and stable for many many years.  WIth a well recognized product and brand.  We even have a direct descendent of Mr. Kirby himself who posts on this Forum albeit infrequently.   

Buffett is a marvel at 74.  His partner Charles Munger, life-long friends, is 84 and a noted money maker in his own right.  Relics some say, just like me, as some say.  Among their holdings: McDonald's, See's Candies, Coca Cola, Washington Post, Dairy Queen, GEICO [gecko] and recently fronted $7 BILLION for the Wringley's-Mars candy deal.  SEVEN BILLION.  By B-H standards that's small.  Generally B-H fronts an average of $10-25 BILLION to consumate business deals. 

Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are good friends.  Play poker together.  You're an Apple/Steve Jobs guy so I understand your dislike for Gates, who by the way was number 3 by the Forbes rankings with $58 Billion.  Bill and Melinda Gates matched Buffett's $31 Billion for their foundation.  It does wonderful things worldwide for the poor and hungry with no strings and politics attached. 

Carmine D.