Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

I knew that Vax UK (which we all know is now part of the TTI conglomerate) had been rebadging Hoover Mach series dual-cyclone uprights, however, paying a visit to their site yesterday I noticed that the design has been slightly modified, for the better I have to say.  Check out the familiar-looking shroud in the bin that was taken directly from the Dirt Devil Spinnergy.  You could say Hoover has invented the Fantom, let's hope that Hoover is just as successful

While I don't think the Hoover Fusion/Maytag Legacy/Mach series machines with the vertically perforated shroud are bad machines, they cannot handle large amounts of fine dust well (the pre-motor filter will get dirty quite fast), and pet hair has a problem sticking to the shroud since the air is pulled in vertically vs. horizontally.  CR reviewed the Fusion a year or two ago and their main complaint was high dust emissions.  Apparently this shroud improvement has already been implemented in the new Hoover Mach 3 at Wal-Mart (blue with yellow touch-points).  It wouldn't surprise me if these machines eventually become top sellers in their price range...any customer who does not or cannot shell out $500 or so for a Dyson will have a good dual-cyclone machine for a fraction of that.  "Is that a new Hoover?"  "No, that's just an old Fantom, from 10 years ago, remember?"

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

From the pervasiveness of the HOOVER Mach-s among all the big box retailers, and the number of Mach models: 3, 4, 5, 6 [and who knows how many more to come], I'd say they already are [top sellers]. 

Carmine D.

I'm just curious, is Hoover UK a separate entity that is not related to TTI? It doesn't make sense to me to sell rebadged USDM Hoovers in the UK market to compete with existing UK Hoovers.

I suspect that while the Hoover name is still widely used in the UK and Ireland as a noun to mean 'vacuum cleaner', the VAX brand is much better regarded after the Hoover 'Free Flights Fiasco'  of 1992 :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3704669.stm

It was this single response to counter Dyson's growing sales at the time, which buried the brand for good.

Moose, DC18, Trilobite, Dusty,

You guys live in England.  Can you give us 1 or 2 reasons as to why you think Dyson has lost market share there?

.

How is James viewed by most over there?  When he was interviewed by BBC's "Hardtalk" host she said the newspapers, etc. called James a traitor, etc. for moving his manufacturing.  Do many or few people resent/still resent James over this move or even his rags to riches success?

.

Is the Dyson school looked on favorably by people there?  Thanks!        DIB

.

May be of interest:  I found this BBC audio clip - talking of Hoover UK and a mention of Dyson too. 

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7350000/newsid_7356400/7356451.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=52&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2

iMacDaddy wrote:

Certainly Hoover US and Hoover UK have a common enemy in Dyson.  I’ve seen the 2 companies (pre TTI) act in concert using lawsuits or otherwise against Dyson.  Dyson is the benchmark in dust separator technologies and that's what they want.        DIB

Motorhead wrote:

Motorhead,

James’ shroud development and implementation is the greatest unsung hero in the Dyson filtration success IMO.  I have not tested all the shrouds but the DC15 styled shrouds are pure genius.  I have 2 med haired cats, 1 Golden Retriever who constantly sheds much and two long haired women in my family and ZERO (or nearly) hair sticks to my DC15 style shroud if the bin is not filled over the max line.

 

The primary problem with the Fusion shroud is the shape, the distance to the interior bin wall and lack of Dyson-style perforated lip or disk.  When debris or hair goes into a Dyson bin, it (hair and debris) drops down and below the shroud and remains there for many reasons.  In contrast, the Fusion is pretty much a blender and the hair and debris is flying all over and back up and against the shroud, giving great opportunity to suck lightweight hair, etc. into it.

 

The Fusion on HSN:  When this hair sticks onto the shroud the Hoover rep intentionally misleads folks into believing this hair sticking is a common problem with (Dyson’s) cyclonic vacuums or as the rep says… “the more expensive $400, $500, $600 machines – that are the rage in the industry”.  But Hoover being the great engineers they are, have made the clear bin removable so a user can place their face and hands into the shroud area so to remove this dirty, filthy, dusty mess (from the shroud).  All the while Dave Shimkus NEVER responds to this Hoover garbage claim with a Dyson response claim and fact…  Dyson’s rarely get shroud clog.

.

The old Fusion demo is on HSN/YouTube amazingly, even when Hoover can no longer legally claim No Loss of Suction in their marketing, HSN still shows the old No Loss of Suction demo, as pictured below.        DIB

.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Alas. the HOOVER Fusion is no more.  So the You Tube video is a moot point.  The Mach models superceded.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

I can never keep up the many different names used for the same/near same product.  But as of only few days ago WalMart and HSN were still selling this contraption with this cone shaped shroud.  The old machine and video's indeed prove the point, even for the newer/Fusion-like machines - the shroud was and remains a mechanical disaster.        DIB

DIB:

Did you notice if the FUSION-s @ WM and HSN had the "no suction loss" stickers?  

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

You know the answer.        DIB

From Walmart’s Fusion page...

·  Disclaimer: Suction stays constant for up to 10 ounces of dirt, as tested by an independent laboratory by using ASTM F558 test method and a dirt composition comprised of 70% mineral dust, 20% cellulose dust and 10% fibrous material.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3922205

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

No I didn't know the answer, hence my question.  The Fusion was made initially for Wal*Mart as an exclusive and Fusion Plus for Sam's Club.  HOOVER was taken to task for the claim: Doesn't lose suction.  Even with the disclaimer [in very small print almost negligible to the consumer].  Admitting that the claim, even with the disclaimer, could be construed as "deceptive and misleading" HOOVER agreed to remove the claim from the product, product literature and carton as of certain agreed upon date.  Of course, now discontinued, except apparently for some old stock, it's a moot point.

Carmine D.

I believe Hoover Uk or Hoover Europe of which I believe it's more known as is no part of Hoover US so I've been told in the pass.  They are totally separate!  Correct me if I'm wrong.  As M00seUK says the Hoover brand in the UK is not as highly regarded as it once was mainly due tot he 'free flights' campaign that went wrong!!  In fact Hoover in the UK has not really brought us anything worth shouting about.  The Purepower range that came out in the late 90's is still about today, in fact that is the main upright line up!  One of the best machines Hoover did in the UK in the 80's was the turbopower/master range which was very popular!

As for the Mach upright series from Vax UK (re badged Hoover US models) one thing I will say about them is they are very bulky and very heavy to lift! Is that not one thing people go on about with Dyson!?  When you compare this range (Mach) to the other vax uprights they are bulky and heavy!  And another thing that will put UK people off as well is the amount of 'fiddley' switches and buttons these models have!

DC18

Wal Mart sells a $60 Bagless Bissell that is better than the over $100 Fusion was.

DIB

I have not seen or heard any news that Dyson has or is loosing UK market share in the vacuum cleaner market.  One thing I will say any shop I go into what is on promenant display to all other brands - Dyson!  Plus they always carry the full range of dyson 9 times out of 10 where as other brands you only get a selection of the full range or one or two.  In the past Hoover and Electrolux used to be the main players on display, they are usually pushed to the back.

People I speak to still regard Dyson as a very good brand and vacuum cleaner to own.  I work friend of mine recently said they wouldn't have another Dyson to replace their DC05 but guess what they did (DC08 - last of a few still about!) and said it is brilliant.  Yes I did give them some advice on Dyson and also mentioned Sebo too.

I've not heard anyone recently mention his move of manufacturing to put them off the brand.  One thing I have heard and agree to a degree the machine quality is not the same as the UK built ones!  That aside people generally praise Dyson Vacuums but you always have that percentage that don't liek them full stop or have tried them in the past and don't get on with them but that is like anything in life!

DC18

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi Hardsell,

Which model is this?  The only true cyclonic Bissells I know of besides the flagship HealthyHome are the dual-cyclone Velocity and Total Floors Velocity, $130 and $140 respectively (and which to my knowledge were never sold at WM).  The rest, as far as I know, are the godawful filtered types.

I'll be checking out Wal-Mart to see if the improved Hoover Mach 3 with the *proper* shroud has hit the shelves.  I may be tempted to pick one up.

Hi DC18,

Isn't that funny that those who do not care for Dysons constantly complain about their weight?  From what I've found a full-sized Dyson (DC07, 14, 15 ,17) is certainly no heavier or bulkier than any other $200+ upright with on-board tools; I'm even going to say there are many other machines that weigh twice as much...take those Panasonic bagless monstrosities for instance.  In regards to sales figures, Dyson shows no sign of letting up in the US either; I've heard so much to the contrary that I haven't been able to find an ounce of evidence on.  I'm just dismissing anything said about any drop in Dyson sales as drivel at this point, we all know how popular they are and will continue to be.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

As I recall you stated here on this Forum that  US sales in 2007

were 4 million dyson units. 

Where did your sales figures come from?

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:

Bissell PowerForce Turbo Bagless Upright Vacuum is now $68.76.  It rates 4+ stars on Wal Mart site.

Several report that it replaced their Hoover and performs better.  Also reports of out performing the Orecks that were replaced with this cheapo.

HARDSELL wrote:

You're a humorist HS.  By far, the best performing BISSELL upright on the market today is the Healthy Home.  And it is giving dyson a run for its money at the big box retailers.  Now the BISSELL HH comes with a 5 year warranty just like dysons but for half the price. 

With the 5 year warranty and the BISSELL HH-s brush roll, turbo tool on board, rug height adjustment, headlight, and price, it is a much better buy than any of the full size dyson uprights on the market today.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I was comparing the Bissell with a $100 + Hoover.  Where did I say that this was Bissell's best.  Try to follow me and get your mind off the LV babes.

I owned botgh the Dyson and the HH.  Kept the Dyson 3 years and the HH less than 30 days.  Can you guess which performed best in my home?

At the present time price is likely more important to most consumers than the performance, hence the HH is a good seller.  Do you have evidence that the HH has out sold Dyson?  I doubt it.

Dyson has 5 year warranty.  I fo not care for turbo tools.  Most vacuums do not have enough hose suction to make them function any better than straight suction (they bog down).  Rug height adjustment is not a problem for me.  Headlight is useless in my house because I have lamps and ceiling lights.  Headlight does not increase suction or brush performance.  A best buy is what is best for the user.

VAX Machs look horrible  I've seen one in a house I went to in North London and it looks like some nasty bulking thing in the corner.

Ive tried one in shop  way way too bulky.  I used to think my Dyson DC04 was bulky, no way is it compared to these VAX monsters.

HARDSELL wrote:

HS:

I know you don't believe me unless I provide 10 corroborating independent authoritative sources. 

How about Matt mmc Airblade?  If so, then follow me on this.   Consumer Reports in March 2008 cited the HOOVER brand as a "best seller."  I quoted it here.  Matt responded saying that he thought NPD says Bissell, Dirt Devil, and Eureka outsell HOOVER.  He said he would post the actual units.  He hasn't yet.

My sense is all these 4 brands: HOOVER, DD, BISSELL, and EUREKA vie for the most vacuums sold year over year.   Generally, there are about 20-22 MILLION new vacuums sold each year.  [Just vacuums.  No sticks, handcleaners, robots and other floorcare products like floor washers and rug cleaners].  According to Matt and NPD, the dyson brand has about 9-10 percent of that amount each year now.  The HOOVER brand is probably somewhere in the range of 30-40 percent with the other 3 brands close behind HOOVER.   Why such a large range for HOOVER?  In large part because of the turbulence caused by the uncertainty of the Whirpool/Maytag buyout over the past 2 years and subsequent closure of the North Canton plant.

If you agree with the above it's not hard to figure out where dysons stand in relation to BISSEL and the other brands for units sold year over year.  The BISSELL Healthy Home has probably catapulted the brand onto the short list of best selling vacuums in 2006 and 2007.  Since BISSELL was not on the list for many years, lagging well behind Dirt Devil, HOOVER and Eureka for the top spots.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

And just to add 3 more reasons for the BISSELL HH over a dyson:  Consumer Reports gives a better rating to the BISSELL HH over all the dyson uprights on the market save the DC17.  And the scores for the HH and DC17 are too close to differentiate.

The Rug Institute of America recommends the BISSELL brand.   

Good Houskeeping gives its seal of approval to the BISSELL Healthy Home.  

I know you kow towed the HH saying the rug cleaning/grooming on the dyson DC07 was superior.  I find that very hard to fathom.  The brush roll on the HEALTHY HOME is an identical copy of the HOOVER WT Supreme.  One of the best in the industry.  We all know the shortcomings of the DC07 and 14 brush rolls.  Probably the worse in the industry for a full size vacuum.  Even Mr. Dyson does and the reason he revamped the brush roll and nixed the clutch on all future upright models. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Vax has a 6 year warranty but I still do not see the appeal of them. 

If anyone wants a good quality vacuum cleaner go for a Sebo will way outlast its warranty.  A Dyson needs 5 year warranty due to its poor reliablity and this has been well documented in testing magazines and out national press, Dyson had to persuade they are good, the adverts showing their test robots bashing machines was part of this campaign.

Vax machines were known for the 3 in 1 machines, which don't seem to be anymore.

Hi Motorhead

Very true people that don't care for Dyson say they are bulky and heavy but there are other vacuums out there like you say that are bulker and heavier than a Dyson.  Also other vacuums can have like the Vax Mach range a load of switches that just confuse people and put them off or they don't ever use any of them!  Where as vacuums like Dyson, Sebo are simple to use.

Makes me wonder why they have offered a 6 year warranty on the Vax Mach range!

DC18

DC18 wrote:

DC,

I wanted to say thank you for responding to my questions.  It seems there is a wide variety of views of Dyson the man and product/s (reading the UK guys posting here).  Interesting.  Glad to hear Dysons are prominently displayed in your vacuum shops.  When you said “One thing I have heard and agree to a degree the machine quality is not the same as the UK built ones! “ - what do you mean?  I not sure I am understanding what it is you are saying.  Thanks again.        DIB

DC18

I have to disagree on the bit where mentioned that quality  is not as good as the british built models.  This is so far from it.  The Malaysian built machines are much better than the british made ones and the electrical parts where always sourced from the Far East and the some of the plastic and rubber bits where sourced from Italy, Portugal and the UK.    Now all is made in the far east, Malaysia.  All the difference now is that the machines are assembled in the far east as opposed to the UK, thats the only difference.  The quality control maybe wasnt there at the beginning but the operations has been going on for some time now.

I have had a british made DC03 which has had to be in repair numerous times, also my neighbour had continuous problems with their DC01.  I have a Malaysian made DC04 and the handheld DC16 and DC05 which has been very reliable, only my DC05 motor burnt, but so has other models - I used it to vacuum builders dust and let it clog, but this  the same amount of failure as the british made machines,  any change would be because Dyson is cost cutting,  I have noticed they are using a lot more Polyproplene is their machines as opposed to the ABS as in older models, but what seemed to have happened with the ABS is that it became brittle after a few years and would just snap,  the newer plastic they use which is shiny steel colour is much better, it may feel cheaper but is better and more flexible.

People who disregards goods because they are made in Far East need to look around them because everything is made over there now.  Dysons were and I think still are, made by a company that also manufactures goods for Sony, LG and Hewlett Packard.

British made goods where never really that brillant anyway, like they say about french cars, but I will always have a french car just because I like them.  I think Dyson is trying to make its machine more reliable and I think it will get there.  I will always chose Dyson for vacuum cleaner,

Bucks03

I never said I totally agreed, just agree to a degree whre these people are coming from.  I have nothing against where products are manufacturered, where as some people do!  I have personally had no issues with either my UK or Malaysia built Dyson Machines.  In fact my DC01 is still running with no issues as is my DC07 and DC15.  I think what people see is the 'chunky' DC01 which was a best selling machine in the UK to the DC15, DC18 and the new $#%* and the plastic on the machines looks thinner in places and as you say is more flexible, some people see that as a sign it may break, or that the new material makes them look cheaper.   But in fact as i see it they are becoming more engineered to break new boundaries of technology!  As Dyson used to mention in their information leaflets the materials used, may be he needs to mention this again!  Stating the new improved materials he nows uses in his machines.

If I had a major issue with Dyson then I don't think I would be buying Dyson vacuums do you?  Plus I wouldn't own the few I have either!

DC18

Hi DIB

Your welcome.  Hope I have answered your question in the response to bucks03!   You do see and feel a difference from the DC01 upto the DC24 and DC25.  But as bucks03 pointed out Dyson is using a better more flexible material which may make the machines look cheaper but in fact are better made than previous models.  Unlike me some UK people don't like change where as I do especially if it's for the better!

DC18

DC18 wrote:

Thanks DC, I understand now.  You made me laugh at the "some UK people don't like change".  This is true anywhere, I guess.  But over there, history, past, tradition is stronger (I believe) than here.  People scoff when something new is used, only to pick up on the idea later.  I remember seeing a friend with Velcro straps on his tennis shoes instead of laces.  We thought he was nuts.  He got em in Italy.  Velcro straps became popular here a year later.        DIB