Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Hello,

I am looking at purchasing a good vac for pet hair.  I am considering the above 2 or something else.  I prefer a bagless upright that has attachments.  I like the price of the Sanitaire.  I also would like something that is reliable.  Thanks for any help!

Honestly, I would recommend the dyson DC17 if you want a good deep cleaning bagless upright that can handle pet hair. The DC14 is rubbish compared to the DC17. The DC17 has a much better brush roll that agitates carpet more aggressively and deep cleans better than the DC14 with its spindly helical brush roll. Also, the DC17 has a much better filtration system that does a better job at separating sand and grit from the air stream than the system utilized in the DC14.

Bestvacuum.com has the best prices on the DC17's that I have seen so far. I have recently ordered the Blue DC17 "Asthma & Allergy" version that comes with an extended dusting brush, flex crevice tool, and a mattress cleaning nozzle for $399 (the price you usually see is $499 online). They also have the purple "Animal" model with a dry powder cleaning kit, low-reach floor tool, and a turbo brush tool for $449 ($549 is what they usually go for elsewhere). They also come with a 5 year warranty, so hopefully that will reassure your confidence in the reliability of this particular model. I would also recommend taking a look at the Sebo's and Miele's on that same website, which are excellent bagged vacuums, should you decide to go with a bagged vacuum over bagless.

rjg2 wrote:

Another bagless upright option for $200-$250 and 2 year limited warranty right up there with your choices:

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000HS28AK/ref=cm_cr_pr_redirect

http://www.allergybegone.com/bissell-5770-upright-vacuum.html?GCID=S11639x033-Vacuums&keyword=Bissell+Healthy+Home&OVRAW=bissell%20healthy%20home%20vacuum&OVKEY=bissell%20healthy%20home&OVMTC=advanced&OVADID=6152386021&OVKWID=67248548021

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=product&tab=7&id=1157067256370&skuId=8028181&childSku=null&count=null#headerCustomerReviews

Carmine D.

Hi rjg2,

I would go with either of the machines recommended to you already.  The problem I see with the Sanitaire is that it has a bin filter; that is definitely something you do *not* want with your allergies.  Over time, that filter will trap a lot of fine dust and pet hair, making the machine extremely messy to empty and clean.  In addition, because the filter does trap all of that, it will clog, causing the machine to lose power.  You need something that is a true cyclonic design like the HealthyHome or DC17 eliminating any potential of trapping fine dust or pet hair in the machine.

The Dyson DC14 isn't a bad machine, however, keep in mind it is one of the older Dyson designs so the new models are a vast improvement over that one.  The DC17 has the added advantage of Level 3 separation (3 different stages of separation in the cyclone assy. so you only have to clean the pre-motor filter every 6 years or so) and two motors with a lifetime geared belt for the brushroll instead of the clutch setup of the DC14.  It also has a more aggressive brushroll than the 14 which will be able to pull more pet dander from the carpet.   The brushroll on the DC17 is also thicker so there is less of a possibility of hair becoming entangled around it, and even so, it is easier to clean if that happens.

If you're not looking to spend $450-550 on a vacuum and want something around the $250 range, then definitely check the Bissell HealthyHome out.  I've used this machine and really like it; it has an aggressive brushroll and tons of suction.  It has the same design as the Dyson (read: true multi-cyclone with no bin filters; doesn't clog or lose power) and will give you improved performance over the DC14 for much less.  If I couldn't have a Dyson, the HealthyHome would be my second choice, easily!  If you notice the Amazon reviews, people say the same about the HealthyHome that I've seen people say about their Dysons...it makes them breathe better (due to the amount of pet dander it removes from the carpet) and their friends like it as well.   So I'd say it's an excellent machine for the price.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

In other words, if you are looking for "value" [read affordable] and not "glitz" [read high price], the BISSELL Healthy Home is the best choice.  Linens-n-Things carry the BISSELL Healthy Home for a regular retail price of $250.  With the 20 percent off coupon, you can purchase it for $200.   Most other retailers will probably match that price too.  Looking at reliability ratings from the Consumer Reports perspective, BISSELL, when you factor into account the CR caveat of 3 points or less as not meaningful, is comparable to dyson.  AND the turbo tool attachment is on board the Healthy Home unlike the dyson.

That would be MY first choice, if I were upright bagless minded inclined.  And, you can pocket the savings [$200 minimum] from the difference in the cost of a new dyson.  What do you know: The price of another BISSELL Healthy Home!  As my Jewish Aunt would say in her own inimitable way....Such a deal!

Carmine D.

I returned a Bissell Healthy Home and kept my Dyson DC07.   They Dyson is worth the cost difference IMO.

Hi,I.M.H.O. you would be LUCKY to get 2 years out of each of these bagless machines,before big trouble sets in,please consider what type of backup service and repair are offered. Sanitaires customer service is excellent,even though they dont talk english.

MOLE

Mark Bissell has a $25 every 6 months hidden cost.  Per the Healthy Home online manual, the HEPA must be replaced every 6 months minimum.  After 2 years the Bissell’s total cost is $325.  $325 amortized over its 2 year warrantee = $162.50 per yr.

 

Dyson’s new vacuum’s are coming next month, these and his patent filings point out that the Dyson clutch is dead (the most common problem perhaps).  A yet to be released Dyson DC25 ($500) looks to be his best ever full sized and certainly the most maneuverable in upright in vacuum cleaner history.  $500 amortized over its 5 year warrantee = $100 per year.

How is the plastic on the Bissell? I've had parts on several Bissell products I've repaired BREAK while working on them!!! I really haven't had much faith in them ever since. (Serious question not just a gripe)

Thanks for the replies.  Recently I have looked at the Dyson's in person and I now cannot justify paying the price.  I would rather pay a premium for a reliable commerical vacuum.  I am also not sold on Bissells.

Basically we need one that is a bagless upright(cleaning reusable filters is not a problem nor is emptying the cup), good on pet hair, doesn't smell and has tools. 

One thing I noticed about the HealthyHome is that it wasn't like its cheaper brandmates (like the PowerForce, CleanView, etc...) it seemed to be fairly well-made, no cheap flimsy plastic.  It would almost have to be; after all, it is Bissell's flagship upright model, something that was nonexistent before. 

The Sanitaire SC5845 is nothing more than a cheapie Eureka bagless with a metal handle and other "beefed up" parts.  Other than that, it's the same worthless machine underneath.  Don't be fooled by the "Commercial" labeling.  Not to mention machines with bin filters are notorious for clogging and stinking.  I would honestly just take a bagged machine over one of those abominations.

Motorhead wrote:
Thanks for the info.  What kind of BAG vacuum would you recommend? 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

The BISSELL Healthy Home Users Guide says "should" not must.    There is no mention of the word 'minimum' in the Guide.  You quoted the text out of context which resulted in a pretext.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Let's assume for talking purposes that the user does change the airtight HEPA every 6 months because BISSELL says it should be changed.  Using your purchase price of $25 per filter, probably accurate, the user would spend $75 for 3 additional new replacement filters during a 2 year useful life.  Remember there is a new filter with the vacuum which has a 6 month life [minimum assuming daily usage].  Doing the math and the amortization of the the cost, assuming a $200 purchase price [using a 20 percent discount coupon] the total "sunk" cost is $275 [including filters].  Or $137.50 per year for the first 2 years vice $100 for the dyson. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Let's also assume, for talking purposes, that the BISSELL Healthy Home continues in operation for 3 more years beyond the warranty period.  The amortized price of the dyson for these 3 years is $300 [$100x3].  However for the BISSELL Healthy Home it is $150 for the next 3 years [3 years x $50 (for 2 new filters each year) and 6 filters in total] and $50 per year.  Vice the dyson which is $100 per year. 

Doing the math, the amortized cost of the BISSELL Healthy Home for 5 years is $425 [$275 PLUS $150] and $85 per year.  The dyson is $500 and $100 per year.  A net savings of $15 per year for the BISSELL Healthy Home vice the dyson.  An overall user savings for 5 years of $75 for the BISSELL vice the dyson.

If you maintain that the dyson user has 3 more years of warranty for the additional $75 expense, then I maintain that the BISSELL Healthy Home buyer can purchase 3 more years of an extended warranty from most retailers for $40.  If the user buys the extended warranty, it still is a net savings to the BISSELL buyer of $35 over 5 years vice the dyson.  That's enough to buy another new HEPA guaranteed airtight filter as a spare [just in case the user has some heavy duty cleaning to do with the BISSELL Healthy Home] with money leftover. 

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
Hello, new to the forum. Joined up here because my curiosity about vacuums was peaked on another forum. One of the thing that I've picked up from another forum about this is to buy some electrostatic filter material and cut it to fit underneath the pre-motor filter of the Bissell vacs. From what was explained to me this essentially mirrors what Dyson does with their pre-motor filters to make the exhaust filter last the lifetime of the machine. So far I've changed my homemade filter insert twice (every 3 months) and wash the foam filter once a month and my HEPA filter doesn't have any dust in it from what I can see. My other bagless Bissell needed to have the HEPA replaced every 5-6 months becuase it kept getting clogged with dust. I buy WEB electrostatic register filters from Walmart. A 12-pack costs 2.98+tax and each register filter will make 3 filters to place underneath the pre-motor filter giving you 36 filter inserts in total or 9 years worth of filter material. So if you take this little bit of tweaking into account up front the cost of new HEPA filters goes away for the cost of 3 dollars.

MrApollinax wrote:

Outstanding. 

Redoing the amortization schedules for the BISSELL Healthy Home and the dyson [assuming a 5 year useful life] then the adjusted costs for each are: 

For the BISSELL Healthy Home:  $200 + $40 [extended warranty to account for 5 years] + $3.00 [pre-motor filter linings] for a grand total of $243.  The dyson is $500. 

The yearly amortized amounts over 5 years are $48.60 for the BISSELL each year vice $100 for the dyson.  Almost less than half.  As I said, if you want "value" rather than "glitz", the BISSELL Healthy Home is the best choice.

Thank you Mr. Apollinax for your money saving suggestion to extend HEPA filter life and usage.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

If you really want a vacuum that cleans better than the Bissell,  and if you can afford it,  Buy Dyson.   I have used both and in my home the 3 year old Dyson outcleaned the new Bissell.

MrApollinax wrote:
Hi MrApollinax,

Was this the Fatwallet.com forum by any chance?  Tom Gasko was the one who made that suggestion on there and other places, IIRC.  I'll have to dig up the thread again.

HARDSELL wrote:
Hi Hardsell,

I think the problem here is that the person who posed the question initially is not taking the suggestions for the Dyson OR Bissell and is instead looking at inferior machines with bin filters, not realizing that it will be a huge mistake, especially for someone with allergies as they clog with fine dust and are a huge mess to empty.  I agree 100% that the Dyson should be the first choice if money is no object, and for $250, while not as good as the DC17, the Bissell HealthyHome is a viable alternative (really the *only* viable alternative here).  At least with either machine there are no nasty bin filters to clog and spew dust.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:
That would be the place. I never actually got a name from him. Over on FW we all know him as Cycloneman :). He has given us a lot to chew on in terms of vacuums (both bagged and bagless) and deep cleaners all on one thread. Here is the link:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/652989

Started as a deal discussion about Hoover Fusion machines, then the Mach3/5 machines. After cycloneman jumped on it expanded to the Bissell Velocity, Dirt Devil Spinnergy, Shark Infinity, Eureka 4880, Bissell Healthy Home... basically encompassing all machines on the market that use cyclonic filtering. It also led to how to extend the life and performance of these machines. Great read. Currently I'm trying to figure out how to dampen the static electricity being generated in the dirt cup of my Total Floors Velocity which led me to this forum looking for answers.

CarmineD wrote:

There you go lying again.  I wrote my post from memory, and not from pretext.  I gladly and easily swap must for should.

Some years ago, I engaged Mr. Tom Gasko on the pros and cons of the Eureka Whirlwind bagless [the first bagless upright vacuum marketed in the USA to use the term 'cyclonic'] and the newcomer dyson bagless, his favorite at the time.  He praised the DC07 and its exorbitant price and kow towed the mediocre performance of the dyson.  He bashed the $100 bagless Eureka Whirlwind.  I took the opposite view in favor of the Eureka, in large part, because of the affordable price and its excellent rug cleaning performance. 

One of Tom Gasko's arguments at the time, like DIB now with the BISSELL Healthy Home, was the need to change the HEPA filter in the Eureka for $25 each time.  My comment to him then was that I doubled up on the foam pre-motor filter in the Eureka bagless Whirlwind and I had not changed the HEPA filter [for over 6 years].  No loss in performance [read suction] and no noticeable air emissions degradation.  Why?  My dear Wife, as an allergy and sinus sufferer and primary user of the Whirlwind, would have noticed and let me know.   I believe the pre-motor filter cost $3.00.  I cleaned them [read vacuum] once a month.   Replaced them yearly. 

For those who remember the written debate, I said the Eureka bagless Whirwind upright for $100 was a deal and gifted more than 6 away over the years, including my own eventually.   Some of these Eurekas are still in use after many years.  Always adding the extra pre-motor filter to the vacuum before gifting.  I mentioned then that I liked the Whirlwind in part too because of a plastic shroud that covered the motor.  Unheard of in a $100 vacuum.

The Eureka Whirlwind Cyclonic bagless upright was a long running popular selling vacuum for Eureka.  Like the HOOVER Tempo, one of my favorites. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,  No matter what brand is discussed (other than Dyson)  you seem to own it and rotate brands in your daily vacuuming.  I would expect a vacuum to last for years when it has dozens or maybe hundreds of back ups and is not used more than a few times each year.

Why do you criticize plastic useage in Dysons and praise other brands for using it?  Same old double standard against Dyson I suppose.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello My Friend:

I've owned and tried [to use] a new DC07 pink in my current home here in Las Vegas.  Gifted it away after several months rather than return it as dyson recommended.  It didn't work on my carpets.  Gawdawful ratcheting noise kept happening.  My poor Wife and dog had to leave the house whenever I started to use it.

The Eureka vice dyson debate between Tom [then called dualcyclone] and I was before your time here and on a different forum.  Like I said earlier, Eureka was the first company and vacuum in the USA to don the "cyclonic" name on its vacuums.  Long before dyson did.   And Eureka didn't sue [like dyson would].

I have always had favorite affordable "value" vacuums.  Why?

After spending 40 plus years in the vacuum business, lots of people always ask me [still do, even email] what is a good upright vacuum that will not cost me an arm and leg.  I respond to the question with an answer based on my [and my dear Wife] personal and professional judgement and experience.  Before the HOOVER TEMPO, it was the Eureka bagged/bagless upright.  Posters and readers who follow the vacuum Forums starting in 1997 [pre-dyson] will recall.  You're a newcomer [post dyson].

I gift these away to friends and family when I am done using [read testing].  In part, to track the vacuums' service and performance after my usage in our homes.  There is at least one poster on this Forum who will verify that I've gifted a new HOOVER product to him [not the TEMPO].   The HOOVER Slider.  It's used in my home. I've gifted more than a dozen away to friends and family.  If HOOVER marketed this, I think every home in the US would have at least one.  Retails for $25-$40.  I've posted a review on here.  As I do all the products I use and I think are a value. 

And another poster here will tell you I gifted 2 new HOOVER vacuums to local churches this past Christmas: One, a HOOVER Z to be used in a commercial cleaning setting; and another a HOOVER TEMPO for a needy parish family.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:
To be fair he did state in the FW forum that Dysons were designed in a way where the user should not need to do more than clean the pre-motor filter. The other "clones" had design(ed) limitations that would effect the overall life and performance of the machines. What he did give us over at FW were the steps to easily modify or maintain these "clones" in a way that made the machines perform on par with their dyson counterparts. Here is a quote he said to DIB on the FW fourum:

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/652989/m11051108/#m11051108

cycloneman wrote:
There is a lot more in the post but I left what I thought was important. For us over at FW looking for a bagless vacuum cycloneman gave us options that many of us didn't know about when we started looking for vacuums.

Carmine, was the Eureka Whirlwind you mentioned the dual-cyclone 4880 or another model? 

I'm honestly surprised that Eureka hasn't introduced another dual-cyclone or multi-cyclone contender to their current lineup as of yet.  I remember the 4880 being around in the early-2000s (even before the Dyson arrived), and then it just disappeared.

MrApollinax wrote:

Mr. Apollinax:

You're a good man.

What's old is new again, as Mike W. likes to say.  Very true for the vacuum industry and has always been.

Back in the day when tanks with cloth bags ruled and reigned supreme, vacuum manufacturers took good care to "sure" up the pre-motor filters in vacuums.  Why?  To reduce the dust and debris that got past the cloth from getting into the motor compartment.  For obvious reasons.  To protect and extend the motor life and improve the exhaust air [smell and content].

How did they do this?  Most would sandwich the filter material, which was very primitive by today's standards, between screen wire and/or fine mesh and then enclosed in a rubber gasket.  To give the filter material strength, support, and substance; absorb motor heat; and seal the air [read dirt leakage] from entering the motor.  In order to extend filter life and keep and prolong peak motor performance. Most times these filters were rarely replaced and instead merely vacuumed cleaned. 

These pre-motor filters and set ups went by the wayside as filter paper bags appeared in the 50's and 60's and flourished in the industry.  With bagless vacuums, these pre-motor filters [and ways to improve their longevity] have made a resurgence.  And rightly so.  A clogged pre-motor filter is the quickest way to burn up a motor.  Both then and now.

BTW, the Eureka Whirlwind bagless was a signature gray and yellow.  Just like the dyson DC07 All Floors.  Except the Whirlwind came first.

Carmine D. 

Thanks to all for the replies.  I read Cyclonemans info and it was interesting.  All of the info. made me go and order a Dyson DC07.  I know it isn't exactly what everyone recommended but it should work better than a 10 year old Hoover upright. 

rjg2,

My neighbor loves her DC07.  I personally think the DC07 high efficiency filtration is the best Dyson currently offers.  It should filter better than Dyson’s newest uprights that are coming too (the DC24/25).  There are some patent pendings from big corporations out of Asia that are copying James’ proven upward cyclone filtration and putting them into their canisters.  These/this type of filtration configuration/s are here to stay.        DIB

rjg2 wrote:

Congrats on the new dyson.  Good choice IF you snagged it for a good price.  Home Depot is selling the DC07 and DC14 on clearance AND offering an additional 10 percent off through today for Presidents' Day.  The DC07 is the better of the deals IMHO:  $329 on clearance less an additional $33 for final price of $299.  5 year Warranty.  Not bad.

Of course, I wouldn't toss/gift away that 10 year old HOOVER quite yet.  Not until you try out the new dyson and are duly pleased with the results. 

Carmine D.

the DC07 is starting to clearance out of Targets right now. I think they are trying to clear stock before getting the new models in. There are some reports of 50% mark downs from the ticket price of 399.99. If you can find one at the 199-225 range you could try to be industrious and get a picture and manager confirmation and take it to Circuit City, Sears or BBB and try to get a price match less 5%. That puts the 07 in the 190-200 range before taxes. From the reports only the DC07 is clearancing out. The DC14,15 and 17 are all still regular price right now. Good luck!

DysonInventsBig wrote:
DO YOU STILL FEEL THIS WAY D.I.B

MOLE

mole wrote:

I said a few things.  What exactly is the question?        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

I said a few things.  What exactly is the question?        DIB

Hello DIB:

Nice try.  Please allow me to facilitate the discussion here for you.

Like MOLE above,  I doubt the innovative success of dyson.  Why?  Simple.  If the most ardent dyson fans like yourself [above] claim publicly that the 6 year old DC07 bests the newest DC24/25.  Is it any wonder that die hard dyson fans [like HARDSELL] don't buy new dysons [in fact return newly purchased DC14-s].  My sense is that all the dyson fans believe new dyson models are lacking and not as good as past.

Over time and experience [15 years as Dsyon LTD], the latest and greatest guru of vacuum filtration [Mr. Dyson] by his own admirers' admissions is not getting better.  What happened to the dyson improvement that HARDSELL boasts about?  Sounds more like failure.

[To quote my esteemed friend and colleague]:

 mole wrote:

[DIB: Merely re-read your post to discern the question]?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

My sense is that all the dyson fans believe new dyson models are lacking and not as good as past.

You could also include all Hoover, Eureka, Electrolux, Filter Queen etc fans in that statement.  Most would agree nobody makes anything as good as they used to whether it be a model from 5 years ago or 30 years ago. Sad.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

Very true.  We know how these brands have deteriorated in quality [not performance] over the years.  Suction power, rug cleaning performance, features, maintenance, and weight of the brands you cite are all much better today than their yester- year models.  They clean better, filter better, require less repair and maintenance, have added amenities and features, etc, etc.  And prices have come down.

Back to dysons.  DIB's post about dyson filtration.  The quintessential feature of dysons.  Filtration!  No need for bags that clog.  Right.  Originally, the dyson mantra was:  Never clogs, never loses suction.   With pre-motor filters needing cleaning annually in the DC07/14, save unusual conditions. 

The revised mantra: Never loses suction.  [True of all vacuums.] 

DIB says that the latest and greatest dysons [and still most expensive big box store brand] don't measure up to the DC07 for filtration.  Why?  In part, because the pre-motor filters call for cleaning every 3-4-5 months.  Hassle!  Like changing a paper bag plus daily/weekly dirt bin dumping with home air pollution!

Is this the new and improved dyson innvovation we all hear about?  Requiring a cadre of 500 engineers and enormous annual R&D spending? 

Carmine D.

If people don’t want to purchase a steerable and pivoting Dyson upright that requires more than normal filter maintenance then they have the choice to purchase a competing steerable and pivoting upright from…  well nobody.        DIB

Hello DIB:

I infer from your response [more correctly lack thereof] that you still believe your assessment of dyson's shortfall in filtration of the latest dyson models.   

MOLE told us that the dyson claim that its filters didn't clog was a farce.  You [and others who proclaimed how great dyson art] scoffed him and refused to believe.  MOLE said that dyson was perpetrating a myth on the vacuum industry.

Now all new dyson models have the requirement for users to observe/perform regular filter maintenance.  In fact, the dyson waranty is null and void if the user does not follow the rigorous filter maintenance.  Truth now be told, dyson should have included the new filter maintenance schedule on all its dyson models fro the very beginning.  DC07/14 too.   The DC07 filtration is no better than the latest dyson's filtering.  You believed the dyson myth that claimed it was.  You refused to believe the truth:  All vacuum filters clog.  Even dyson.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB:

Next to the farcical claim that dysons don't clog, is the claim that a 12 pound lightweight household vacuum needs a huge ball wheel to make it easier to steer and pivot.  It's laughable. 

Fool me once, shame on dyson.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

American consumers are not fools.  They are very unforgiving despite what you may think.

Carmine D.

YOU just have to keep telling the lie often enough and people start thinking its the truth,[neocons like misguided and unregulated propaganda]

dyson ran his vacuum marketing campain no different than the now defunked FANTOM camp.

Now you can take this overpriced, underperforming, overhyped,poor excuse for a cleaning device and sell it back in the good old U.K.[if they let you].

sincerely

THE-MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
Before anyone labels me a Dyson groupie, let me point out that I'd rather push around a Riccar or a Sebo before a Dyson.  With that said, I like the Dyson product.  When we sell these machines we recommend emptying the container after each use (keeps odor down if you have pets and it doesn't cost anything to empty) and the filters be washed out every 3 months.  If the customer does this the chances of them being unhappy with the machine are virtually nil.  We also suggest vacuuming with their old vacuum one last time and then going over the carpet with their new Dyson.  As you can imagine, most customers are amazed at what they pull out. Now this of course isn't because the Dyson is that much better than their old machine but more the fact that the majority of customers don't change belts, empty bags when needed or have a clue how to maintain the product that they own.  This is where Dyson excels in my opinion.  It's a simple vacuum.  Dump a cannister, wash a filter.  The customer can do that far easier than trying to change belts, match up proper bags when most don't even know what they own or heaven forbid, choose a correct height adjustment for their carpet.  While many machines will outperform Dyson initially, over the course of the year or years the Dyson is easier to maintain and thus the customer remains happier with their vacuum.  I believe simplicity is Dysons innovation.  Keep it simple and people will pay whatever you ask.  I give the nod to Dysons 500 engineers on this one. If nothing else, they certainly beat out Eurekas big innovation....the Spin Duster.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

Dyson user simplicity is not its forte.  Dumping a dirt bin daily/weekly and washing filters quarterly is not in my opinion a better alternative than changing a paper bag once a month.  Add to the mix that most vacuum users don't have time and you don't have simplicity.  You get complications.  Dyson joins that ignominious list headed by Rainbow for high consumer price and pampering.

Dyson gets my kudos for vacuum colors and clear dirt bin.  People see the vacuums [especially women] and they look like toys with a purpose.  The clear bin gives a sense of work accomplishment by watching the whirling/swirling dust in the bin.  But there are the dyson down sides.  Retail prices, as MOLE indicates, are off the charts for its under performance and added user requirements.   The unsightly dirt bin is just that when you put it away.   Even if you dump.

Do colors and dirt bin take 500 engineers and millions of R&D every year, with impressive looking lab technicians in white coats?  [Does farce enter your mind?].  Is this the dyson innovation that demands such high prices?  Makes me laugh thinking about it.  Some people are suckers and buy into the dyson myth and glitz.  Most don't anymore and the numbers are dwindling. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
A filter that doesn't clog isn't really filtering.  Foam filters just do not clog as quickly as pleated filters like on the Hoovers.

CarmineD wrote:

This is true with few exceptions, such as yourself.   Hoover fooled the people during its' last years of operation and some like you supported them.

As we know the public caught on and realized that there was more truth in Dyson and its supporters. 

Hoover failed and you have since chosen another inferior product.

CarmineD wrote:

[DIB: Merely re-read your post to discern the question]?

Carmine D.

=========

Carmine,

Here is what I said (put to points)….

1. My neighbor loves her DC07.
2. I personally think the DC07 high efficiency filtration is the best Dyson currently offers.
3. It should filter better than Dyson’s newest uprights that are coming too (the DC24/25).
4. There are some patent pendings from big corporations out of Asia that are copying James’ proven upward cyclone filtration and putting them into their canisters.
5. These/this type of filtration configuration/s are here to stay.

 

…any interpretation outside of what I said, would be just that.

 

Re: DC24

The idea of Dyson sacrificing filtration in order to bring to market - a tiny, steerable and pivoting, 11.6 lb vacuum is what it is.  I, like many Dyson supporters posting here had disappointment over first learning of the monthly cleaning prior to actually seeing this (pre-launch) machine.  Since it launched and thus far no Dyson supporters deny that indeed Mr. Dyson and his team invented, engineered and designed something special.  And so my disappointment over the monthly filter maintenance is now lessened.

 

Re:  DC25

I have absolutely no problem with a 4-6 times per year filter maintenance on this machine.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

[DIB: Merely re-read your post to discern the question]?

Carmine D.

=========

Carmine,

Here is what I said (put to points)….

1. My neighbor loves her DC07.
2. I personally think the DC07 high efficiency filtration is the best Dyson currently offers.
3. It should filter better than Dyson’s newest uprights that are coming too (the DC24/25).
4. There are some patent pendings from big corporations out of Asia that are copying James’ proven upward cyclone filtration and putting them into their canisters.
5. These/this type of filtration configuration/s are here to stay.

 

 

…any interpretation outside of what I said, would be just that.

 

 

Re: DC24

The idea of Dyson sacrificing filtration in order to bring to market - a tiny, steerable and pivoting, 11.6 lb vacuum is what it is.  I, like many Dyson supporters posting here had disappointment over first learning of the monthly cleaning prior to actually seeing this (pre-launch) machine.  Since it launched and thus far no Dyson supporters deny that indeed Mr. Dyson and his team invented, engineered and designed something special.  And so my disappointment over the monthly filter maintenance is now lessened.

 

 

Re:  DC25

I have absolutely no problem with a 4-6 times per year filter maintenance on this machine.        DIB

DIB, 

Why not buy one of Carmine's perferred vacuums.  They only require expensive bags which do not fill frequently because the vacuum doesn't pull out enough dirt to fill them.  You can also change the belt 3 to 4 times annually.  Remember the belts will need frequent changing because it fails even while stored and not in use.

His previous recommendations only required that the screen prior to the pleated filter be removed and cleaned a half dozen times with each use. Otherwise no suction.  If you are luck the pleatged filter will last the duration of each vacuuming without cleaning.  After vacuuming you can take the pleated filter out and beat the dust out of it while breathing the filth.  You might also need another vacuum to vacuum the remaining dirt out of the pleated filter.   Another of his previous favorite bagless spewed so much dirt that no filter was needed.

CarmineD wrote:
If it was as simple as only changing a bag once a month I would agree with you.  Bags have to be bought, that takes time and that's something that most users don't have, as you say.  Bags are the biggest agrivation people have about vacuums.  They run out unexpectedly, they run to Wal-Mart to buy new ones, Wal-Mart doesn't have them so in their infinite wisdom the buy something that might fit.  After all, a type "A" bag is a type "A" bag, right?  On top of bags you should really change your belt at least once or twice a year too.  Another daunting task for many.  The Hoover Foldaway has at least six screws that need to be undone.  Who has time for that?  And the belt...they always look so small and are so hard to put on.  More time needed.  Better wait for the husband to get home so he can do it.  Is that really a better solution than emptying a bin weekly and washing a foam, mostly dust free filter every 3 months?

As people in the vacuum industry we all know Dyson isn't the best product out there but really, it just doesn't matter.  The consumer looks at it as a no hassle vacuum, no more belts, no more bags, no more cartridges to buy.  In a time of new found eco friendlyness, the Dyson appeals to the masses.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

If you compare dyson models to other big box store [bagged] brands, I would agree with you in part on the hassle factor for bagged vacuums.  But as we know from HARDSELL, there are a plethora of bagless brands in the big box stores too that compete with dyson and are much less expensive.  All the bagless advantages that you cite for dyson apply to these brands too.  No longer can dyson perpetuate the myth that its filters don't clog and require minimal maintenance.  This false claim allowed dyson to command the highest bagless vacuum prices in the big box stores.  No more!  Like MOLE says: The gig is over.

Compare the dyson vacuums with independent vacuum store brands [all of which are probably bagged].  Why?  Because the dyson high prices compete with these vacuum brands.  Bagged vacuum users who purchase the indy store brand vacuums buy their bags at those stores.  Probably once a year.  Not a big deal and effort.  If vacuum shoppers journey to the indy-s to purchase a quality vacuum, they will surely go back there without hesitation for the correct bags. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

Is it fair to compare a $100 bagless [HOOVER Fold-away] with a $500 plus dyson for strengths and weaknesses?  No, not really.  Compare dyson with other $500 plus indy-vacuum store brands.  What do you decide to sell?

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

Here's where the argument for dyson appeal breaks down.  We know the myths and truths about dysons now.  Fair to middle of the road performer.  Filters clog.  Same filter maintenance required as the less expensive brands.  But the highest big box store vacuum prices.  Compare dyson bagless to other big box store bagless.  Why does dyson deserve the highest prices?  No longer can the dyson fans point to the filter free cares of dyson as the reason.  Can't argue the dyson 5 year warranty.  Other big box store brands have the same.  Now according to DIB, its the ball technology.  The ball that failed with the DC15.  I don't buy that argument.  Neither do others.  The dyson case for high prices falls apart there.  Be they at the big box stores and/or the indy-s. 

MOLE's right.  The dyson gig is up.  As ACERONE posted, most of the small dyson business dealers, like himself, are long ago out of business.  The big dyson dealers will follow.  The dyson honeymoon in the US is over.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

You are always the first to compare all brands with Dyson.   I don't recall you taking (as example) an Oreck thread and start with the merits of Hoover, Miele or others.Thanks for the flattery. 

The less expensive brands do not filter so well so why worry with cleaning the filter.  My experience is that most dirt is past the filter in these.

As usual you left out the main reason that consumers choose Dyson, PERFORMANCE.

How many times have you told us that the Dyson gig is up and that Hoover would survive? Your batting average is not so good. 

CarmineD wrote:

All the knowledgeable know that those other bagless are only there for the price shoppers.  They can't compare with Dyson quality.

I refer back to your plasma.  Builder line of product to thrill the buyer when ii is little more than Junk.  Next you should upgrade that builder grade carpet.

HARDSELL:

The other bagged and bagless brands are dyson's competition.  Dyson is loosing market share to its competition here and abroad.  You and other dyson fans would have us believe that there is no competition for dyson out there.  Not the vacuum that never clogs and loses suction.  Right.  So why did you buy a bagged Royal Eminence for $299 when you can get a new dyson DC07 for the same if not less?  Competition is a wonderful thing for consumers.   Even former dyson owners like you.  Not so wonderful for the product makers.  HOOVER on my friend!

Carmine D.

I get it now DIB:  With dyson, the buyer spends $500 and gets an either/or choice.  Either supposed good filtration [if you believe the myth] with care free filter maintenance and/or ball technology and normal user filter maintenance.  What an innovative marketing ploy!  What if a dyson buyer wants both?  Out of luck?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Yes, there are many bagless brands on the market.  The majority of which use a cartridge filter that sits in with all the dirt.  You can not tell me that they are just as easy to clean as the filter in a Dyson.  We have been running a Dyson in our store for almost 6 months and the secondary filter, while dusty is still very clean.  The Eureka Capture, which gets used far less has had to have the filter washed frequently.  Our bagless Panasonics and their cartridge filter are filthy and require constant cleaning.  The Bissell Healthy home may be a worthy contender but Bissell recommends changing the hepa filter every 6 months ($24.95) and washing the secondary filter at least once a month.  The secondary filter is also no where near the quality of the Dyson and I suspect after multiple washes you would have to replace that too.  Again, I'd have to give Dyson the edge.

I have no problem comparing the Dyson to high end vacuums.  The Sebo would be a good example...high end, geared belt, low maintenance.  Bags alone are roughly $20 and the bags with filter maintenance kit around $50. Over the course of 5 years the average customer would buy 3 packs of bags and 2 maintenance kits for a total of $160.  Add that to the cost of a X4 which is about $700 and you have a vacuum that will cost you $860 over 5 years. Geez, I could purchase 2 DC18's for that kind of money and never have to leave the house for bags.  Again, if it were me I'd buy the Sebo but for the consumer doing their own research it's not hard to see why Dyson have done so well.

As far as vacuum shoppers sticking to the indy's for bags and such I will disagree once again.  I'm frequently asked if there is somewhere "closer" to where the customer lives that they can buy bags or even worse...can I buy these at Wal-Mart. 

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

You said it all with the words I highlighted.  SEBO over dyson any day for a vacuum pro.  I agree.  Substitute any other indy-store vacuum brand for SEBO comparable in price to dysons.  What would you chose as better and sell to customers?

WRT vacuum customers doing their own shopping and deciding on dyson, they did in the past because of the overstated claims by sales persons that dysons didn't clog and the filters were virtually maintenance free.  Both are myths.  Now these claims are widely known in the industry as false.  Vacuum shoppers will shy away from dyson in the future in part due to the mediocre performance, in part the increased filter maintenance required for warranty, and most especially the high dyson prices.

With the cost of gas so high and going up, you have a point on shoppers and bags.  They may look elsewhere than the store of vacuum purchase.  They will probably go on-line and buy the bags to avoid gas and time. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Known in the industry perhaps, but not by the general consumer.  Even when we point out that bins need to be emptied and filters cleaned, the customer that comes in looking for a Dyson will still choose it over the majority of our bag models.  Again, just the thought of having to do a little less is all it takes for them to spend $500.  This is exactly why we decided to carry the line...it's easier to give the customer what they want rather than constantly selling away from it all the time.  It may not be my favorite machine but $200 profit in my pocket is better than letting Best Buy or Target have it.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

Judging from the positive Dyson reviews on this site alone it is evident that readers do not listen to your propaganda.  Only 1 review for Oreck and that is from a biased Carmine.

How far is the future.  I think it is now.  You have been telling us for three yeare that in the future Dyson will fail. The only one to falter is Carmine.

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

I highlighted the relevant words in your post.  People that owned dysons know because they experienced the clogging filters and loss in suction.  First time dyson bagless buyers probably don't but they will be burdened with filter maintenance.  You and I know that most vacuum users won't do it.  You provided an excellent post on the overworked housewives leaving the bag and belt changes to their husbands when they get home from work.  Think those women will dump dirt bins let alone wash dyson filters monthly and quarterly?  No, probably not.  Voila, same problem with dyson as not changing an overfill bag.

$200 profit on a $500 retail vacuum.  Wow!  That's a huge mark up.  No wonder sales people exaggerated claims about dyson.  Profit motive!  I would sell dysons too but only if the customer insisted on dyson.  I would not recommend over any of the indy-store vacuum brands.  Bagless, dyson included, is a nightmare for most vacuum customers after they use.  Lots of hassles and high maintenance [dumping the bin, cleaning and replacing filters, and health hazards of dumping the dirt bin indoors].  Like Rainbows which top the list for price and pampering.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I used a DC07 for 3 years.  I checked the filter regularly and only washed it a couple of times.  When I washed the filter the water was only slightly dingy.  Dumping the bin was not a pleasant thing but neither is changing belts or lugging the vacuum back to the dealer for a tune up and them going back to get it.

If you live in the same filth daily that you are dumping why is it more hazardous after it has been vacuumed and then dumped?  I have never read a report about a fatality caused from dumping a dirt bin.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Did you read the Users Manual for your dyson.  Did you note the illustrations for dumping the dirt bin for allergy and asthma sufferers?  Two pages with illustrations in great detail and narrative on the proper disposal and dumping of the dyson dirt bin to avoid health risks.  All doctors advise allergy and asthma sufferers not to use bagless vacuums, dyson included.  Consumer Reports does also.  Me too!

You sold your DC07 too and now use two bagged upright vacuums. Royal Eminence and Kirby Sentria.  Excellent move.  You finally took my advice.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

As usual you can't answer my question as to why living and breathing filth daily becomes more hazardous after being vacuumed.  Please pay attention.  I think you are exagerating when you say that all doctors advise against bagless.  I give no credit to opinions from CR and you.

When did you ever recommend Royaol or Kirby to me or anyone else.  You only recommended hoover.  Gald I did not listen to you. You do not take your own advice or you would still be be using Hoove and not Oreck.  Hypocritical at its' best.

CarmineD wrote:
Press a button, empty dirt.  I don't think you are giving the ladies enough credit.  Clear bin as opposed to a bag tucked away in a machine that you can't see.  I don't see the problem.

As for health hazards, how is it that Dyson in both the US and Canada are certified asthma friendly machines by the Asthma and Allergy Foundations in both countries?  If it was indeed an evil health hazard should they not have that rating taken away?  Personally the only time I've ever seen emptying a bin to be a hazard was on an Oreck infomercial and when you let the dirt go from 3 feet above the garbage...well....perhaps your not qualified enough to be vacuuming in the first place.  Might also want to remove any sharp objects that are lying around too :-)

Again Carmine, don't get me wrong.  I'm a Riccar and Sebo guy.  But to say Dyson is done and the masses are upset with the vacuum I have to strongly disagree.  Dyson is here to stay. They'll make changes, alter price points, and do all the same things all the other companies do to make it work but until the other companies come up with a bagless machine that compares favorbably they'll be able to charge whatever they like for the product.

Dusty

Hello Dusty:

The dyson bin is easy to dump.  Other bagless bins too.  Big Headache: Where do you dump it?  Inside?  Outside?  Either way, a hassle and problem.  Especially as the dyson bins get smaller.  What that's all about?

Dyson prices had to fall and MAP get scrubbed.  20 percent and more off the dyson MSRP is normal with added bonus of giftcards and store cash.  That's how the dyson brand survives now at the big box retailers.  Exclusive dyson models are long gone. 

Simple on the certifications.  The certs are granted for one reason and one reason only.  They are based on the users reading and following the dyson User Manual for dirt bin dumping.  Why do you think dyson devotes 2 pages of explicit detail and instructions.  [I'm sure you recommend to all your dyson buying customers who are allergy and asthma sufferers to read and follow the dyson instructions]. 

The halo with UV-C for germ killing is mentioned frequently.  The CEO, Mr. Garcia, commissioned a study to prove halos used regularly are better for asthma and allergy sufferers.  Why do you think halo comes with a paper bag?  Not bagless.  So doctors can recommend to their asthma and allergy patients?  You're getting warm.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

I thoroughly agree with the words from your post that I highlighted. 

If you want me to believe that dyson is and will be the only bagless vacuum game in town then answer this for me:  Why has dyson new market share in the UK dropped from a high in 2004 of 43 percent to 28 percent in 2007.  That's  an average drop of 5 points in market share per year for 3 years.  Why?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

People who have enough sense to come out of the rain can empty a Dyson bin cleanly, less sense would be problematc (“big headache”).        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Obviously, you never ever saw the 1952 movie with Gene Kelly: "Singin in the Rain."  Great movie.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0045152/

Where do you empty your dyson dirt bin?  Indoors or out?  How often?  Do you suffer from allergies and/or asthma?  Know any one who does [suffer from allergies, sinuses, asthma] and owns a dyson vacuum?  Do they follow the dyson User Instructions for dumping the dirt bin? 

Why do you think halo is bagged and not bagless?  Conspiracy to sell paper bags?  You're cold!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Still have comprehension problems I see.  Dusty did not say that Dyson is or will be the only bagless.  Now please tell us a comparable bagless.  You didn't even know that Oreck was superior to Hoover until your wife guided you in that direction.  Why don't you tell us why Dyson has lost market share?  Please give facts as your opinions are biases and useless.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

I never thought you'd ask. 

Answer:  LESS EXPENSIVE AND BETTER PERFORMING VACUUM COMPETITION.  Bagged and bagless.  Now, what do you think is [are] the reason [s].

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I don't want you to believe Dyson is the only bagless vacuum game in town, just that they aren't going vanish into thin air.  UK market share has many factors..economic time (as you're going thru in the states) , the fact they moved production to Malasia didn't help matters on the home front either.  What's wrong with 28 percent by the way?  I would think most companies would be jumping for joy with numbers like that.  In Canada they are sitting at 24 percent market share in 3 years.  Not to bad either.  You don't think Oreck or Sebo would love to have those numbers?  No, Dyson isn't the only bagless vacuum but it is number one and I don't think that's going to change.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Where do you empty your bag?  Do you follow the guide on your Oreck bag or like most people try and cram as much dirt into it as you can.  Every tried to take the bag out when that happens?  The minute you pop the bag off its mount there is dust in the air.  Now you have to actually try and lift it out of the cloth bag.  I've had bags that way a good 5 pounds and are so packed into the cloth bag it's almost a two person job to get it out.  The Dyson is no different than any other appliance, you follow the instructions and you won't have a problem.  I've seem people screw up every vacuum on the market because they neglect to read the book.  If that happens, it's their own problem not the vacuums.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty:  What's wrong?  Dyson's lost 15 percent in 3 years.  By dyson's own admission.  [I think it may even be more].  By dyson numbers that's 5 percent a year.  What other vacuum brand has lost that much market share in the UK in 3 years?  At that rate of attrition, dyson will disappear into thin air in the UK in just 5 more years!  Maybe sooner. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:
Will you still defend dyson if the huge margins goes away?,WHAT IF SEBOS MARGIN WAS ONLY 5% would you expell the virtues of it?,How many times do i have to tell you there is going to be no money in it and very soon,
Dont get sucked into their B.S. I would be willing to bet that europro still has plenty of fantoms left,after the buyout,

How does it feel to be run out of business by the same companies you push?

Get me once shame on you get me twice shame on me.

My good friend from CANADA,[VERNON] has the real lowdown on the canadian numbers,

been there done that

THE-MOLE

dusty wrote:

Dusty: 

I change the ORECK paper bag every month. It can last longer.  [It's one of the largest in the the industry.]  I have an English yellow lab that sheds year round.  The air filtration on the XL Classic [ORECK-s least expensive model] is not as good as the Deluxe and Ultra ORECK-s.  My dear Wife is an allergy and sinus sufferer.  

I remove the old ORECK bag in my study [indoors].  I fold the top of the bag over [with the hole opening] and into the bottom of the bag [with the dirt].  I walk to the kitchen with the old bag in hand and I open the lid on the plastic trash can [equippped with plastic liner] and place the old bag in the can.  For all intents and purposes the dirt and germs are completely contained in the paper bag in the trash can.  Then, I wash my hands in the kitchen sink.  The kitchen can liner can gets dumped and replaced nightly.

I walk back to the study and I insert a new paper bag [which I keep stored in the closet next to the study].  No dirt clouds.  No dirt trails.   Bag costs $2.00 each.  ORECK-s cheapest brand CC Type.  Just like new again until the next month.  The bag track/harness on the ORECK makes bag removal/replacement quick, clean and easy. 

I have a bottle of PURELL hand cleanser in the study.  I dop a drop on my hands, rub in, and voila.  Mission accomplished. Takes me 2-3 minutes in all.  Tops.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Dusty:

No I don't think either SEBO/ORECK do.  Why?  If they did, they would be made in China and be sold in the big box stores and TV sales network stations like dysons.  SEBO and ORECK are not interested in these sales venues.  Miele?  Maybe soon?  Although I suspect Miele will continue to be made in Germany with another factory in the USA, perhaps Mexico?

SEBO and ORECK are content with the market share/niches that they carved out over the years.  They are both well respected brand names.  Other brands and brand sellers are envious.  Why? Because they try to compete in those niche markets with SEBO and ORECK too.  [Quality, lightweight and top tier performers]. 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Manufacturer underachievement is not vogue or good business by any stretch of the imagination.  D.O. could use more market share and the extra profits to pay off his many investors and finally buy back his namesake.        DIB

mole wrote:
Huge margins are reserved for Sebo, Miele, Oreck and most of the other independent only vacuums.  Dyson, while being better than most department store brands is hardly a top money maker.  If I was being run out of business by brands I pushed I'd be pointing the finger at Eureka, Hoover or Panasonic...all of which can show up in department stores at the same or sometimes even below my cost.

If someone has other Canadian numbers I'd like to see them.  I got mine from a late 2007 business week article so if there is an update feel free to post.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
I take my Dyson bin (ok, the stores Dyson bin...I have central vac) hold it a few inches from the bottom of an open garbage bag, press the red button and let all the debris into the bag.  There is no dust cloud as I'm not emptying from any great height.  I close the bin lid and reinsert it into the unit.  Just as easy as your bag.  Once again, it's not the vacuum at fault if someone is finding it harder than this....it's the user.  I couldn't begin to count the amount of Orecks we have repaired where the bottom of the outer bag is loaded with dirt and debris because people leave the paper bags in to long and they tear getting them out...same goes for the Dyson if you don't empty the cup.  Follow instructions, live a happy vacuum life.  Go your own way, you better get to know your local vacuum dealer.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

How often?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
At the store we empty frequently as we don't want to empty a full container over the showroom floor.  Home use, we still suggest emptying when done your cleaning.  I'd guess in most homes that's once a week (all though I'm sure some folks only pull the vacuum out every month)

Dusty

dusty wrote:

I vacuum daily.  1500 square feet.  80 percent carpet.  20 percent floors.  Change the bag monthly.  No filters to maintain.  If I vacuumed daily with a dyson, and any other bagless, I would dump 30 times a month.   Hassle.  Big headache.

Most persons vacuum 2-3 times per week on the average.  That means dumping a dirt bin 2-3 times per week and 8-12 times per month.  Hassle? Headache?  Choose your poison. 

If a person vacuumed once a month [depending on the square feet], and did a thorough vacuuming, my sense is that he/she would have to dump the dirt bin at least 2-4 times for 1500 square feet.  And they would still leave behind a huge amount of embedded dirt in the carpets and rugs.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

In the case of dyson/bagless that overfilled bin dirt goes to the pre-motor filter and after the pre-motor filter becomes saturated the unfiltered dirt gets into the motor and then to the post motor filter.  All the while overheating and wearing out the motor components.  Choose your poison.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

If Oreck had proper suction you would have to change bags more frequently.  I disagree that most vacuume 2 to 3 times weekly.  I never emptied my Dyson efter each use.  I vacuum 1800 sq feet.  Of course my house was not filthy before vacuuming.

The most embedded dirt I ever removed was when I replaced the Oreck with a Dyson. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Really?  500 ORECK stores nationwide and more opening all the time is not underachievement by any stretch of the imagination even yours.  Some who post here thought hurricane Katrina in August 2005 would be the death knell of ORECK.  Boasted about it on the vacuum Forums.  The eye of the storm hit the ORECK plant dead center. 

ORECK didn't miss a beat.  Opened up temporary headquarters in Texas AND contributed to the relief efforts of the victims of the storm.  Used its stores nationwide to meet all customer orders.  Accounted for all its employees and paid them salary and benefits all during the reconstruction period while the plant was disabled.  New plant new location after a year and still a lock on the lightweight vacuum market and hotel/motel industry.    Adds new meaning to the word underachievement.

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

In my 40 plus years of vacuum store ownership and operations, I never made money on new vacuum sales.  Repairs, parts and rebuilts were the money makers.  For the first 5 years of business, I didn't sell a new vacuum out of my store.  I referred new vacuum buyers to other businesses.  Free. 

I added new vacuums in the mid 50's as an accomodation to my customers who asked to buy new vacuums.  I started with HOOVER, then Westinghouse, then EUREKA and then Panasonic.  I was the first authorized sales and service dealer for Panasonic in NJ in the early 70's.  I never made $200 on the sale of a new vacuum.  I was lucky to cover my vacuum cost with overhead added.  If I made a profit of $10-$25 on the sale it was all gravy.  Then only because I bought in the largest volume and took advantage of the promotions and freebies.

The first thought that came to mind when I read the $200 profit you make on the sale of one dyson, was that I was in the vacuum business at the wrong time.  1949-1992.  No wonder several vacuum posters in the past bragged that dyson sales were paying their monthly mortgage and financing their early retirement. 

Carmine D.

Ca
Actually there is more profit in selling an Oreck than a Dyson.  Margins are higher and the customer has to come back for bags and belts.  Perhaps you should start up again ;-)

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

I am sure that you let this slip out.  You always avoided my question when I asked i fyou made more profit on vacuum sales or on parts and service.  The truth is out.Now we know why you dislike Dyson so much.  They do not require all those supplies and servicings like the brands you profited from.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Who said? The CFO of Wal*Mart and the Exec VP for Wal*Mart's home division.  Retail sales numbers for May were reported last week.  The best performers: Wal*Mart and COSTCO with same store sales increases of 3.9 and 5 percent. 

Wal*Mart's VP for the home division says and I quote: "We see really solid numbers that show people are staying at home more, and when they are at home, they are preparing food, and that means they [have] to sweep and vacuum their floor, so one of my biggest departments is floor care, vacuum cleaners for example."  Read an weep.

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

HARDSELL:

Those pleated HOOVER cartridge filters, like in the EmPower and WT are teflon coated, completely immersible, and guaranteed for the lifetime of the vacuums.  Less expensive than the leading bagless brand filters. 

I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that the post motor filters on the latest dysons DC24/25 are P-L-E-A-T-E-D paper. 

Carmine D. 

dusty wrote:

Not the ORECK XL Classic for $150 retail plus shipping.  Least expensive of all ORECKS.  Not in the Deluxe for $399.  Most popular and best buy of all the ORECKS.  Perhaps the Ultra for $549 and the XL 21 for $749.  The Deluxe for $399 is as good as the Ultra and has the same motor.  Who needs a 10 year warranty? If it's a warranty you're looking for then buy the XL for $749 and it costs you $35 for 21 years.  Free everything for 21 years.  

$200 on a $500 retail dyson is huge mark up.  Not surprising you defend it and the customers who buy.  Profit motive speaks volumes.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Well to start with, the Oreck XL Classic sells for $349 in Canada and no, we don't make $200 on it ...but we don't make $200 on a $499 Dyson vac either. I never actually  mentioned a model or price, it was you that said $500.  I don't particularly want to post cost of vacuums here but $200 profit on the rest of the Oreck line isn't out of the ordinary and that's still less profit than most dealers make on a Miele or other high end machine. I defend Dyson because the customers I have sold the product too like the product and compared to other bagless machines I believe it's a superior machine.   Every vac has it's place whether it be Oreck, Dyson, Eureka or whatever.  There is no product on the market that is as good and you think or as bad as you think.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

You don't think Oreck or Sebo would love to have those numbers? 
Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I'll post it and phrase it differently...  Dyson has a 28% Canadian market share and you think it is in Oreck's best interest not to be at a 28% market share too.  If D.O. was solely owned I could go along with your analogies and D.O. can do as he pleases with his namesake.  But since he has 3 or more investors one would assume growing market share and profits would be a good thing.  Do you think D.O. secured these investors by painting a picture of growth or painting a picture of no growth?        DIB

HARDSELL wrote:

Hardsell,

Lets see what it takes for "Mr/Mrs/Miss not-so-good-with-tools" to maintain his/her belted vacuum cleaner...  Load a vacuum into a car, drive vacuum to a local vacuum dealer, unload vacuum and drop off, return to dealer at some later date, load vacuum into car, unload vacuum once home and do it 2-4 times a year is something most would prefer not to do.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Is that in sales dollars or units?

ORECK has respect as a brand name.  Quality products.  Made in the USA by Americans.  ORECK has a consistent niche market share year after year and has for many years.  Offers a plethora of floor care products.  And air purifiers.  These factors in union draw investor interest and support.   

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hello DIB:

Are you describing the typical profile of a big box store vacuum cleaner buyer and user in the USA?  If so, it's skewed.  These vacuums are disposed after a few years with liitle or no repairs.

Are you describing an indy vacuum store buyer and user?  In which case, you still have a skewed perspective.  With an indy store vacuum, it's not a one time sale transaction and sayonara.  It's a business relationship with customers over time. 

If you are describing dyson buyers, who bought into the myth of no clogging filters, returning their vacuums for repairs/warranty, then you are exactly right. 

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hello Dusty:

I detect some back pedaling on your part? Are you conflicted? 

In the USA, BEST BUY and TARGET stores sell dysons at MSRP of $400 [DC07] to $549 [DC17] with all prices in between [before discounts and incentive].

If you're having a change of heart and mind [conflicted] you might want to re-visit your previous post.  I added it below with highlighting.

dusty wrote:

Unless you are a big box store retailer, the product with most profit should never be the justification for sale.  My sense from you is that in the case of dyson it is the prime reason.  Others before you made the same case for dyson based on profits.  I posted about them.  Boasted of dyson profits.  If you want to stay in business, give customers their money's worth.  Not exaggerated claims.  On one hand, you sell dysons [for the money] and on the other you believe and prefer SEBO, RICCAR and other indy vacuum store brands.  

dusty wrote:

You made this statement here at least 4 times by my reading. 

BTW, most car dealers in the USA these days are happy to move cars off the lot [especially gas guzzlers] with a $200 profit.  Thrilled.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

I do not see most Wal Mart shoppers as being the socially elite.  Their menu of surf and turf is fish and bar b que.  When they are preparing food they usually skin it in the yard.  You really do not need to do a lot of house cleaning to serve a six pack with pickled weiners and pickled eggs.

In your quote there is no mention of the number of vacuumings per week.  Of coures you would be the one to try and interpret to suit your argument. 

CarmineD wrote:

Again Carmine you are twisting.  Longevity does not mean non clogging.  Those Hoover filters clog within the first few minutes of start up regardless of what they are made of.  Once again you are trying to deceive.

I have not researched the DC24/25.  When I do I will be honest in my comments whether negative or positive.  You should do the same. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Oh yeah,its much easier to have UPS,deliver the dyson back and forth to their expert repair center [in buffalo]wait 4 or 5 weeks to get it back and a week later the problem is still there,And you get to pay the shipping charges,

Of course customer service will e mail you and tell you that they are awfully sorry and do feel your pain,And offer you a coupon for another product we sell that does not work properly,maybe the famous hand vac you know the one that you need 2 hands to use.

I even have a motto for dyson,how about quality products through employee participation,you know the guys in the white coats that are so smart you have to tell them when its time to go home,or come out of the rain.[HOW COME THE SKY IS BLUE]?..........

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
No back peddling at all, I stand corrected.  My intent wasn't to link the $500 to the $200....two different thoughts at the time. Point for you :-)  I will still tell you however that Dyson is the least profitable of our high end lines which include Oreck, Riccar, and Sebo so your suggestion that I back Dyson due to profit is incorrect.  I also mention that I prefer Sebo and Riccar because I get the feeling that you think I'm all about selling Dysons, which I'm not.  If a customer comes to me looking for one, that is what I show.  If they come looking for something else then they get shown something else. In Canada Dyson runs from $499 to $749 with no independent dealer exclusives.  We sell for the exact same price as all the major department stores.

Hello Dusty:

Thank you for the clarification.  No points wanted.  My sense from your posts was that dyson profit was a strong motivating factor for sale.  I'm pleased to know it is not.  If I were in business, I would carry the dyson line.  Just as an accomodation for customers who specifically ask.  But I would most definitely demo the kapoc test and list the shortcomings of the dyson vacuum honestly and frankly.  I would have no choice but to carry since the repair work and genuine parts would depend on sales too. 

ACERONE was a small indy dealer exclusively of dyson products.  He eventually could not compete and profit with dyson. Dyson abandoned him for the big box stores.  Just as HOOVER did with its dealers in the 60's.  Much of vacuum industry history is repetitive.  What you are, we once were.  What we are, you will soon be.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I can see where being exclusive to one product can cause problems, be it Dyson or Hoover or whoever.  Our philosophy has always been to concentrate on 3 or 4 main lines and shift them around as the market dictates.  At one time we did large numbers with Sebo, then more stores started to carry it so we scaled back and worked heavier with Riccar.  We don't drop lines, we always support what we have sold. I can relate to what ACERONE went thru, I've had friends in this business go down the same road.  Loyalty from the big companies is a thing of the past, now we look after ourselves and sell what the market is asking for.  It's the only way we've found to keep up with the box stores.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:
Carmine,I just want to thank you,for trying to lead the dealers down the right path,There is no substitute for experience,Now if you could only get the ROOKIES to listen.
Trust me nothing different is going on in this industry that has not happened since the beginning of this business, You are right HOOVER started it all. Maybe a little justice has been dealt back to them[its just now just another vacuum cleaner sold at wal-mart and sears with out the label people would just think it's made by Hambilton beach or some other company bases out of the AFRICAN congo.......

MOLE

Hello MOLE et al:

Your analogy of customers' actions for dyson repair and service [in/out of warranty] is very telling.  The most costly and fatal error dyson made in the USA is not following the tried and tested ORECK model.  Readers of previous vacuum Forums recall posters like GANDOLF, RAT, and SEVERUS [on this site], recommending the ORECK model for dyson customer support and service. 

It's too late in the USA.  Mr. Dyson pulled out $289 MILLION in retained earnings in a late night Board Meeting on March 31, 2008.  Apparently, he wants his legacy to be the engineering school for high school aged students.  And his concern was avoiding an 18 percent capital gains.  Long term dyson customer service and support in bricks and mortar stores was not even a distant 2nd and 3rd choice on his agenda.

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

Heres another point of intrest when selling off dyson customers,I tell the customer it was just a big smoke and mirror game.

They took just one very small aspect of how a vacuum cleaner works,exploited it with marketing and hype made the public buy into it as something new,took the money and ran away.

Heres a tip for the real vac and sew professionals, tell your customers this little story,what exactly does does root 8,level 3 cyclones have to do with picking up filth and dirt out of your carpeting and flooring,let them think on it for a minute,and you will see the blank stare on their face,and the blank is the right reaction because cyclones have nothing to do with carpet cleaning.

You Can add DYSON to the list of mission accoplished..........

MOLE

Hello MOLE:

Well spoken.  Not only did the unknowing public buy into the dyson myth, but some supposed well repspected vacuum professionals too [well respected in their own minds].  You know them from posting on here and other vacuum sites.  They long since changed their names on here.  Gee, I wonder why? 

These psuedo pros fell for the dyson hype and myth too [rookies].   I can understand the public, but the professionals?  Shame on them.  The same psuedo vacuum  pros defended the puny dyson brush bars too.  They said brush agitation wasn't important for carpet cleaning with the 270 dyson air watts.  Even resurrected the old vacuum industry myth that brush roll agitation wore out carpets.  Vacuum history repeating itself.  Remember in the 50's when Electrolux and Air-Way door to door sales people said the same about uprights and HOOVER in particular.  Then they came out with power nozzles for carpet cleaning. 

Been there, saw that, know that.  

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

Interesting with all you posted here, you didn't mention [post above] that you bought a  DC14 and returned it because you were dissatisfied with it.   Did you forget?

HARDSELL wrote:

Then you didn't mention you bought and used a BISSELL.  Did you forget?  Or is that like posting for 3 years that you owned a HOOVER WT bagless and speaking negatively about it, then finanly saying it was a HOOVER FUSION?   Forget again?

HARDSELL wrote:

What did Shakespeare say?  My what a web of deception mortals weave when they begin to deceive.  Looks like it caught up with you.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,yes i well remember those claims, about how the HOOVER beater bar wore the wood off a pencil,and the pitch that went with it, if it took the wood off a pencil,imagine what it must be doing to your carpet?.
And the most famous line of all you buy your carpeting by the yard and throw it away by the pound.[if you use anything but our vacuum,filterqueen,compact and even electrolux,airway,used this line.
The one that really sticks in my mind is ELECTROLUX for years bashed uprights then all of a sudden in 1978 made one,

I asked the customer all the time do you really think HOOVER or EUREKA would make a vacuum that would destroy your carpets the answer 100% of the time was NO.
I can go on for hours about this stuff,but i'll stop here............

MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

Hello HARDSELL:

Interesting with all you posted here, you didn't mention [post above] that you bought a  DC14 and returned it because you were dissatisfied with it.   Did you forget?

No memory loss here.  I like the 07 better than the 14.  I like either better than the Bissell. 

HARDSELL wrote:

Then you didn't mention you bought and used a BISSELL.  Did you forget?  Or is that like posting for 3 years that you owned a HOOVER WT bagless and speaking negatively about it, then finanly saying it was a HOOVER FUSION?   Forget again?

Again Carmine you need to read.  I said the likes of.  Not the only ones that were returned.  The Bissell did better than the Oreck since you bring it up.   I owned a WT bagged self propelled for a few years (not sure exactly how long).  I inherired a bagless POS Hoover about 3 years ago.  Probably used it 3 times and spent hours cleaning the screen and pleated filter.  Pure junk.  I bought a Fusion out of curosity.  Better than the other bagless but still not worth keeping.  Your imiganination runs wild when you miss your medications.

HARDSELL wrote:

What did Shakespeare say?  My what a web of deception mortals weave when they begin to deceive.  Looks like it caught up with you.

Carmine D.

You have failed again.  I deceived no one.  Can't say the same about you.  Maybe your wife should have run the business back when.  After all she showed you the road to your Oreck.  Now you know why I do not believe the pros like you.

Hello HARDSELL:

Let me call upon Shakespeare again:  Me thinks thou dost protest too much. 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Hello MOLE:

The door to door brands impugned HOOVER so much and so long with these falsehoods [resurrected by the psuedo dyson vacuum pros a half century later to defend the puny dyson brush bar], HOOVER compiled an industry booklet in the 50's.  It contained letters of endorsement from all the major US rug makers attesting and certifying to the excellent performance of the HOOVER brand on rugs.  Green book!  Remember it well. 

Fast forward 50 years later, and the same vacuum industry myth gets spewed again.  This time under the veil of pervasive lawsuits by vacuum users against HOOVER for rug damage.  Remember the poster?  A legend in his own mind.  Trying to defend the indefensible.  A sub standard industry brush roll: The puny dyson brush bar.  What a crock!  What a crock! 

Scare tactics used by psuedo vacuum pros duped by dyson hype and untrue claims.  These so called pros still refuse to accept and tell the truth about dysons.  Why?  Because they were fooled and don't want to admit it. 

Carmine D.

I still love my DC-07!!!!  

rjg2 wrote:

It was the right choice for you!  Congrats on your purchase.  Not sure what you paid.  I've seen the DC07 new recently for $299.  Refurbs for $199.  You know what refurbs are? Most of the big box retailers are discounting the new DC07-s to move them out.  They are over 6 years old and ready for retirement from the big box retailers' shelves.

Carmine D.