Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iH9bdT5tcFOJz0hhY1fBBfP9KbLQ

http://www.dyson.co.uk/store/productmodel.asp?model=DC22

Hi M00seUK

So the DC22 that was launched in Japan is launched in the UK!  It also confirms it is a small model like the DC12 as it was thought when the Dc22 was launched in Japan it was bigger than the DC12!

No mention of the DDM in the UK versions!?

DC18

Great news, thanks for posting.  I agree with DC18 on the size; I thought it was going to be a large machine too, in the pictures it appeared larger than the DC21 (which is the same size as the other Dyson canisters but still small compared to other brands of "full-size" canister).

I can only hope this model (or a variation of it, DC23 perhaps?) will make it to the 'States, with the DDM of course.

Motorhead wrote:
It's listed on the USA site also.

M00seUK wrote: Interesting, I checked the USA site again and it still shows the DC21 as the only canister model. 

DC18 wrote:

Appears so, for both models. They feature core separation, which perhaps adds slightly to the unit size.
It's a good price point, It's 10 GBP less than the larger DC20. Perhaps Dyson thought that including the DDM would be a tough sell, if it made 'Baby' more expensive. Although it would have been nice to have a DDM option, like to turn the brushbar in the Animal model. Maybe they want to keep current production for the Airblade for the moment?

Motorhead wrote:
Sorry, you're correct. Dyson.com was directing me to Dyson.co.uk

True adding the DDM would push up price point.  Should sell well if slightly less than the DC20, the Animal DC22 is not a bad price either!

DC18

Well, I'm certainly stumping down my cash for 'Baby' when it hits the shops. I live in the city in a place with wood floors throughout and something like this is certainly needed, especially in the new builds - they have next to no storage space to keep a vacuum.

You will have to let us know what the Dyson baby is like M00seUK when you get one!

Moose, Thank You!

.

Dyson Baby:  I have seen the DC12 called Baby on an Asian blog but I thought it was nickname people gave their DC12.  A search shows Dyson registered the DC12 Baby here.  The DC22 Baby-Animal lists a turbine nozzle, but the hose looks to be electrified.        DIB

Not a good time for "baby" to be born.  Even a dyson baby.  Read it and weep.  It's often said that timing is everything in business.  Dyson's timing IMHO couldn't be worse.  It doesn't look good for the home team dyson fans. 

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080117/wall_street.html?.v=51

AP
Stocks Extend Plunge; Dow Falls 306
Thursday January 17, 6:14 pm ET
By Tim Paradis, AP Business Writer Stocks Extend Plunge As Manufacturing Index Falls; Bond Insurers Fall Amid Fears of Losses

Carmine D.

Hi DIB,

I'd say the hose is electrified to power the controls, even though you did mention it has an air-driven nozzle.  But I wonder if a motorized power nozzle would work.

Just a guess.

Motorhead,

 

In comparing the two canisters, (Japanese and UK photos) they almost look identical.  Only upon close inspection do you see slightly different wands and hoses.  The nozzles look the same on both photos.  Is not having a power nozzle in the UK a good thing?        DIB

 

UK:   http://www.dyson.co.uk/store/product.asp?product=DC22-ANIMAL

Japan:  http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000Z9YOH6/pasoconeco-kitchen-22

So no Digital Motor used in the latest models?

I was just going to say no DDM in any of the new models by the looks of it!  Looking at the price points of the UK versions of the DC22 Baby Dyson the DDM and power nozzle does not look like they are on this model or that would push the price point up!  They are both cheaper than the DC21 (UK) model!

DC18

The DC22 baby cann might have some appeal here in the USA.  Price and performance are the keys to success.  CR will take the baby dyson cann through the obstacle cleaning courses and report the results.  Let's wait to see what CR says before it is declared a vacuum icon for the ages [like some of its predecessors].  Timing is everything.  It may be too late for dyson to capture the baby cann market in the USA except among jaydee fans. 

Carmine D.

For those who are not tormented with Dyson-Jealousy, enjoy.        DIB

.

DC22 pictures, a few good shots of the power nozzle:  one two three four

The hose is mounted in the wrong spot

MOLE

Very nice DIB, thanks for sharing.  I anxiously await the arrival of the DC22...definitely nothing wrong with the improved low-profile Motorhead.  Not that the DC21's was that big, but this will make getting under furniture and getting the rug clean underneath even easier than it already was, and that's saying a lot! 

Nice close ups, thank you DIB for sharing the pictures. I bet the motor head on this DC22 is simular to the ones used on the DC24/DC25 using one complete brush bar and powered at one end!

DC18

Trilobite wrote:

.

Trilobite,

It seems the DC22 “Baby” and DC23 have been abandoned at birth.  You’re right, there is no good information of the filtration to be found at the Dyson UK site.  The DC22 press release praises the filtration capabilities, although the web site is lacking badly.  Is keeping potential consumers in the dark a strategy?  If the DC22 is praised to much (Dyson's greatest filtration to date) perhaps it will hurt with the selling off the older DC19, 20 and 21’s?  It looks like Dyson may have may have to much inventory of these older cylinders.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

If you scroll up a few and see my post from Jan 18, you'll know the reason and have your answer.

Carmine D.

 

Click to view Supersized HQ.

WHAT HAPPENED,

WHAY MARKET WAS DYSON TARGETING WITH THIS MASTERPIECE.

SORRY JIMMY BOY YOU LOSE AGAIN..............

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

I was wondering the same on both:  What happened to the dyson baby cann and what is the target market? 

Carmine D.

Having looked at the DC22 (and the DC23) in a shop and picked it up etc... this is heavier (feels heavier) than the DC05 canister (now discontinued in the UK!) and looks bigger too!  I wonder if the DC22 is bigger than the DC12 Japan model!  I think the DC05 should have been named 'Dyson Baby'!  Probably due to the bigger bin and cyclone top with root and core technology makes the DC22 look bigger!  Still a very small compact powerful machine!

DC18

DC18,

Hello, I hear the DC22 is a middle size between the DC05 and DC21.  The DC05 is small sitting next to a DC21 (by about 20-30% smaller).  I believe the DC12 would of made a great dealer exclusive and should have been here in the U.S. long ago.  In terms of size-to-power technologies it has no competitors (that I am aware of), it is radically unique and could not be undercut by retailers.  Removing the phone-home capabilities may or may not be necessary for it to be a success here.  Sell it as is, a straight suction machine.        DIB

 

P.S.  Dyson had the “Baby” trademarked for the DC12 in other countries.  Agreed, "Baby" for the DC22 is a bit of a stretch.

Hello DIB

Thanks for your info.

DC18

The Japanese DC22 filters can go years[?] before between filter cleaning.  I just found the UK's DC22 instructions online and it says "To wash filters at least once a month."  What's up this?        DIB

 

http://www.dyson.co.uk/support/help.asp?article=1457&product=DC22-ALLERGY

Hi DIB,

That's rather interesting as well.  Must be a discrepancy on the website, I believe the DC22 filters can go for 6-7 years without washing. 

I agree with what you said about the DC12 as well, that would have been a fantastic machine for the US as a compact canister (with the DDM of course).  To me it seems the DC22 while bigger than the DC12 is still smaller than the 21 and 23 hence the "Baby" designation.

-MH

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Check out the filter washing schedule discrepancies between the Canadian DC21 (every 6 months) and the Canadian DC23 (every 3 months).        DIB

http://www.english.dysoncanada.ca/customercare/manuals/ca/DC23_motorhead_caen.pdf

http://www.english.dysoncanada.ca/customercare/manuals/generic/dc21_ca_manual.pdf

DysonInventsBig wrote:
Hi DIB,

As explained to me by the Dyson rep and as we tell the consumer, the whole idea is to be more aware of the filters in the unit.  It's the same reason the filters on the DC24 are labled to be checked once a month...might not mean they need cleaning but at least check them to make sure.  We've been running the 23 and the 21 in store for awhile now and I can say that the 23 allows less dust to the secondary filter than the 21 does.  Could you go without washing for six months in the 23?  Sure...maybe even a year...but you'll always get that one application that where people vacuum every day in a big home with lots of pets and kids.  Those applications probably need to follow the 3 month schedule...perhaps even sooner. As the saying goes, better safe than sorry.

Dusty

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Not sure why that is, like Dusty says to make people more aware to check the filter regularly regardless if they need cleaning or not!  Can't see the DDM has anything to do with it!  I don't wash my filters in my DC07 or DC1much but do check them from time to time!

DC18

dusty wrote:

Dusty,

Thanks for the info.  The newest and most radical cyclonic filtering vacuum cleaner on the planet comes with a manual that suggests filter maintenance every 3 months is nothing short of a disaster.  If I remember correctly the Japanese DC22’s (both DDM and standard motors) are advertised (per Dyson Japans website) as going 5 years until filter maintenance.  And this is a HUGE business advantage over the present and future competition.  Dyson needs to separate himself and his technologies (his vacuums) as far superior to his competitors.  The DC22 can do much better it if James chooses.  Many manufacturers are in line with cyclonic patent pendings.  This is war and Dyson will loose the cyclonic filtration wars if he does not change some of his business and design beliefs ASAP!  Chinese Hoover certainly demonstrated they are willing to lye down prone and sell themselves with a unbelievable cheap multi-cyclonic.        DIB

P.S.  Playing it safe on the filter cleaning I agree with, but the DC22 should go at least 1 year at minimum before filter cleaning.

.

Carmine and Mole,

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link…  If you find the weak link in the discrepancies between how the DC22 filters in the various regions, this will lead you to why the DC24 and DC25 do not filter as good as they most certainly should.  Let me know if you need additional hints.        DIB

.

*Owns factory/s in 3^rd world countries as well as the brand, vice others who must pay for their sub-contractors mark-ups. 

DysonInventsBig wrote:

DIB Man:

You and the dyson menschkins should cut your losses on this filter farce and the DC07 and DC14 clutch and brush bar.   You have a bigger battle to fight.  Dyson fans, not MOLE and I, have to craft a legitimate defense when vacuum buyers ask why they should pay $500 plus for a dyson that requires monthly filter maintenance.  Especially after being told for 6 years that the filters don't clog: The reason always given by you to warrant the high dyson price.  Ball ain't goin to hack it!

MOLE gave the reasons several weeks ago with absolute no rebuttals received. 

First, the dyson claim "never clogs" is a myth and always was.  We know the answer.  ASA told us and dyson.

Second, the latest root technology with the primary, secondary and final dirt separators is far inferior to the earlier dyson versions.  Therefore more fine dirt has to be filtered by the pre-motor filter which then clogs if not cleaned monthly.

Third, the dyson brush bar was soooo puny on the DC07 and DC14 that the fine embedded grit normally removed by most vacuum brush rolls, [which clog filters], was not exhumed in sufficient amounts by dysons to clog the filters.  Much stayed in the rugs instead.  When dyson ramped up the brush roll design on newer models, more fine embedded dirt/grit was exhumed from the rugs than with the earlier dyson models.  Making monthly filter maintenance a  dyson/user requirement to warranty the vacuums for 5 years. 

And finally, all the above.  I choose all the above.  You can fool all of the people some of time, you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 

Carmine D.

Hey DUBBA,I mean D.I.B.

The more you post this nonsense the more you are ruining yours and dyson reputation.

You flip flop more than John Mcshrub.

Dysons filter great? our claim to fame,well now since we made it work better after years of research and development,it doesnt filter so great any more.

The more dust and dirt the machine picks up the harder the filters have to work,[HINT,HINT,HINT,].

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole,

Did you pull away from fantasy role playing and “Nailing Dyson’s to the Floor” long enough only so to name call?  I understand Dyson’s separators well, you don’t.  I understand my praises and my criticism’s here are indexed and far reaching.  James Dyson can make his separators filter much better if he changes some beliefs.  I know what I am doing and I know what to type to get the indexing I want.        DIB

mole wrote:
Mole, first of all, are you from Indiana?  You sure sound like a Hoosier to me!  You type like a Hoosier, you have Hoosier ideas, you run a Hoosier vac shop, and I bet you live in a Hoosier home

The ASA ruling that has been quoted here offhandedly so many times does not have anything to do with the claim of no clogging!  The ASA was completely satisfied that the machine does not clog or lose suction if the customer follows the printed directions included with the machine.  Which, understandably, something Hoosiers have a hard time understanding

What the ASA ruling had to do with (and the ASA is in England NOT in America, and is not a LEGAL authority) was the implied claim that the Dyson does not have filters at all.  That claim was implied rather than directly stated, there is a clear difference.  What Dyson actually said in their advertising was that there is no filter in the cyclones to clog, which is true.   But the average consumer took that to mean there were no filters at all, which is not true.  Dyson changed their claim to reflect the fact that there *are* filters, which, if you follow the directions, don't clog!  If you view the ASA ruling you will see that is true.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

A mole is a little creature that crawls under ground and is a nuisance (pest) to the world.  When confronted they dig deeper and hide.They do not see well if at all.  Naturally they are at the bottom of the intelligence chain and serve no useful purpose. How could you expect a mole to follow directions?

Hey Motor:

Awful lot of IF's in your story about the ASA taking dyson to the watershed over its false claim: Never clogs. 

I have a story for you too from a famous childrens' fairy tale:  If the hound didn't stop to rest, it would have caught the rabbit.  But it did, and it didn't. 

ASA bids Sayonora on the old steel guitar to the dyson claim: Never clogs.

Carmine D.

For those that haven't seen it, the ASA ruling.

http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_42594.htm

Dusty

HARDSELL wrote:

Hey HS:

As usual you slant and give half truths to suit your needs.  Moles see quite well.  Just not with their eyes which are very tiny.  Instead, moles use their other senses which evolved to compensate for their eyesight.  It's a myth that they can't see just because they have poor eyesight.  It's also a myth that they are dumb.  They are quite intelligent.  Hence, spies who infiltrate intelligence agencies and gather classified data/information are commonly called "moles."  

If you furrowed in the ground all day, what good would eyesight be to you?  Well, forget the last question.  You don't, and it's still no good!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

You contradict your self.  First you say they see without using their eyes. Then you say they use their senses to compensate for eyesight. Where were your senses when you stated this?

I agree that senses compensate for poor eyesight, however that is not seeing.

Read my statement again.  I never stated emphatically that  they do not see.  If they see at all they have tunnel vision at best. 

Hey HS:

Ooh!  I detect some anger in your post.  Not good for you.  I changed my message just for you. 

CarmineD wrote:

I especially like the spy and mole connection.  Truth be told here, MOLE's are much more creative, interesting, intelligent and have a better sense of humor than HARDSELL's.   The latter have much to much pent up anger.  You'd think they were given a free dyson to test, just to say nice things about it on vacuum Forums, then sell it for cash after 3 years, only to get caught in the end and found out by everyone! 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Your detection is not so good.  Of course considering the source I don't expect it to be.  I see no need to get angry with the mentally challenged.

I am sure that with your IQ a mole does seem intelligent. 

You are the only one making accusations about my DC07.  Remember,  I have no assciation with the vac industry.  No freebies and no biased opinions because of my past. 

You really should foirgive Dyson for making a monkey out of you as a consultant.   Which is mole and which is Carmine?

DysonInventsBig wrote:

O.K smart guy.

Now i will pose another question for you to answer,

What does dysons cyclonic technology [what ever system they are calling it this week],have to do with dust and dirt removeal out of the carpeting.

My educated opinion is that it has absolutly nothing to do with performance or dirt removal, it does not mean SQUAT how many cyclones are used where they are located and inverted or sideways.

Do you think Sir Jimmy wants me on his team?

If you dont respond I'll know why.

Have you ever indexed spark plugs, why dont you give it a try sometimes,Mr inventor........

MOLE

HARDSELL wrote:

I just LUVS my Dyson,its the bestest vacum i have ever used, THe kolors are soo koole, the Nice yung women on E baye said they laste fer eva, She liked me soo muche she gave me free shippin,

The above is a typical review on amazon.com,

Notice how the dyson posts get more hostile as time went on.??????????????

MOLE

The irony is that the above post actually looks like something Mole would write.  And unlike that post, most of the well-written Amazon reviews on Dysons I've seen praise the machine, not surprisingly.  And the most critical reviews are generally the most poorly written, which makes me wonder if the person actually knew how to use the machine in the first place, or was intelligent enough to read an instruction manual.  Not likely.

-MH

mole wrote:

So eloquently written mole.  Otherwise I would have thought you wrote it.

I could not find a Dyson model that rated less than 4 stars overall.  Most are 5.  The DC16 even rates 4 stars.

You monkeys should go back to what you do best.  You can turn over. Carmine's turn to scratch.

Aw Shuckins HARDBALL, thankz, i new youd like it,

 
But i rely doo luvs my DYSON, CONSIDERING my other vacuum was a floor mop and dustpan.

I realy lik the lifetime filterz they nevr has to bee replaced ya no, and the long hoze is very kool also i can cleen my hole housse without liftting the vacum,i live in a box ya no,

im not that muche edumacated, youd problly  gest that by now, but dyson said that peple like mee are ther target maket............

ELOM...............

mole wrote:

I did not realize that you previously owned an Oreck.

HARDSELL wrote:
You know what H.S. i really did have an ORECK i won one in a dealer contest, i sold it to someone in Springfield Missouri, i think it was called the vac shack..............

mole

mole wrote:

So you won a gag prize.

HARDSELL wrote:

Soooo HS, that's how you came to get a free dyson DC07.  You won the boo-bie prize!  Lucky you! 

Like dyson giving away 140,000 Air Blades to jump start its sales.  Ain't working.  Donees did what you did!  Sold them and used the money for something else.

Hey Prez, you reading here?  I got an idea for an economic stimulus package.  Buy up all the new DC07 dysons that Wal*Mart dumped on dyson and dyson dumped on BEST BUY and give them away to the US taxpayers.  They'll sell them, like HS did, and use the funds to make new purchases.  Win, win!

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

I see you are still dreaming.  When you lose you resort to fiction and lies to divert your loss.

I paid $399 for the DC07.  Dyson does not have to give freebies like Oreck does.  I could really rack up if I wanted to.  Buy the Oreck, keep the gift and return the vac.  That is not me though.

Hey HS Man:

I might believe that you were foolish enough to spend $2000 on new golf clubs.  After all, all men like their toys and are willing to spend lavishly for their enjoyment, entertainment, and recreation.

But even you HARDSELL would not be foolish enough to spend $399 for a DC07.  You said so recently.  No.  Not when you could have easily saved at least 20 percent at a number of retailers without any effort.  That's an $80 savings. 

NO you didn't pay $399 for a dyson.  Not when you got one free for using it and posting about it.  You told us that you wouldn't pay $399 for a DC07.  Too expensive were your own words. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote: mole wrote:

Mole,

Vacuum/Bag manufacturers cannot guarantee 100% suction strength while using their product/s. - Dyson can.  So what does Dyson technologies have to do with performance? - Plenty.        DIB

Hey DIB Man:

If suction alone were the performance standard for uprights and rug cleaning you would be right.  It's not.  Just as MOLE's point that filtration and air flow are not the performance standard.  In fact far from it.

Don't believe MOLE  and me.  Read the post that Motor man has on another thread here.   Like you he is a dyson fan. 

Suction power [to pick up], brush roll design and function [ to agitate, loosen and groom], and filtration [to cool heated motor during operation and preserve the air quality in the room from the contained dirt/odors] all must combine in a perfect balance.  When these are present on upright vacuums the result is an efficient and effective machine to properly clean and groom rugs and carpets. 

Of course, it takes a user with the inclination, wherewithal, and time to put the vacuum to proper use.

Carmine D.

Ahh, yes and make it as easy as possible for the consumer to use,

A big point is that manufactures tend to get so caught up in high tech,that they forget about the customer and [USER BENEFITS].

How many times have you heard customers complain about kirbys weight and attachment useage?

Another point of intrest to me is that [DO people still have shag carpeting?],

MOLE

mole wrote:
Sadly, shag is making a bit of a comeback.   Lets just hope it's short lived.

Dusty

Hey Carmine Man,

At the end of the day it is about physics and who puts forth (the basics) a vacuum that best uses
”in the public domain” 1)  off the shelf parts and/or 2) designs.  I am fully aware it takes many individual lengths to build a strong chain.  Dyson simply removed the weakest length…  Suction loss due to a clogged bag (and filter).

 .

Mole,

I answered your riddle within the framework of your post and no response?

.

DIB

Are you sure you didn't mean Festus, MO?  I think there's a guy there who has every model of Oreck in his collection... 



mole wrote:

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hey Mr. DIB's:

I like that but prefer:  Hey, Carmine D. Vacuum Man.  Now you're talking physics and chemistry combined! 

It's always funny to read dyson fans' posts.  It's as tho the vacuum industry was in the dark ages until dyson suddenly appeared and rescued it.  Not quite.  Not even close.  In fact just the contrary.  

Dyson has a rough road to hoe.  With the competition like HOOVER, BISSELL, DIRT DEVIL {and yes even EUREKA} copying it and selling for less, dyson with its high prices is destined for extinction.  Especially in a deep recession and down global market with soaring oil prices.

One quote from dualcyclone/motor [don't know which] that I agree with [surprise, surprise] is this: Consumers don't remember who did it first, they remember who copied the best and sold it for less. 

 Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hey Carmine D., Vacuum Man,

 

There is a sub-culture of vacuum dealers and collectors that cannot get past James Dyson’s legitimacy in the industry, all the while Dyson has been credited in history as the one (his team too) who brought radically commercialized changes to the vacuum cleaner.  Dyson and Dyson alone upped the game of vacuum manufacturing, no brag, just factual history.  It’s funny to see so many vacuum dealers and their buddies cling to and sell the past as if it were new and/or the only or best solution to an old problem (vacuuming).        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:
It's called the Old Boys Club and sadly, every industry has it.

Dusty

CarmineD wrote:

Do I understand you?  Vacuums have basically been the same for 50 or more years.  Maybe a few color changes here and there.  Dyson has now been copied by almost all manufacturers and yet Dyson did nothing to change the industry.  Why didn't they just continue with bags that clogs and cause suction loss if Dyson didn't get the industry off it's ashes.

No doubt Dyson will have to change it's pricing to remain competetive with today's economy, however that is not justivication to imply that Dyson has not revolutionized the vacuum industry.  Your responses are as asinine as usual.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Hey DIBster:

Perhaps in the UK, I might partially agree.  Tho the dyson market share declines tell me otherwise.  Dyson competition has gained ground in the UK over the last 4 years and brands will probably surpass dyson's annual share of 28 percent in 2007, if not already. 

In the USA, I can't agree with you on any level.  Not with 10 percent of annual vacuum sales in units [at best and declining].  History is too recent to prove your statement accurate.  Time alone will tell.  If dyson doesn't succumb to the USA industry stalwarts like others have before [Fantom].   A fad that came and went.

Interestingly, in years past dyson sales results were posted here quarterly, semi-annually, and annually.  No more.  What happened?  An indication vacuum history is repeating itself [Fantom].

Carmine D.

dusty wrote:

Hey Duster Man:

It's called the "good old boy's club."  Also known as the experienced, seasoned, been there done that veterans of the industry.  I call us:  "The Old Guard."  There's a saying that youngins like you in the industry should heed:  What you are, we once were, what we are, you'll soon be. 

Carmine D.

HARDSELL wrote:

Hey My main Man HS:

Of course not.  The vacuum industry has evolved over the last 100 years just fine without dyson and after dyson is long gone.  Sure, vacuum brands copy a $500 plus vacuum and sell it for $120 [low end vacuum prices and models].  It's called smart marketing and crushing your competition.  All industry companies do it.  Don't flatter yourself dyson fans.

It may be too late for dyson to drop prices and survive in the big box store venue.  Why?  Dyson gave too much time to its competitors to copy and sell better vacuums [dyson copies] for much less.  

Dyson's path of least resistance [read:  keep from competing against itself]  is to keep prices in the moderate to high range [$300-$400] and maintain a niche vacuum market.  Not a bad approach. 

Certainly, dyson has not achieved/will not achieve the predominant USA vacuum market share [in units] that many of its fans predicted years ago.  Not with 10 percent and falling.  Not with fair to middlin ratings from the pros and industry watchers.  And certainly not with its filter foibles and claims.  All of which add support to the Old Guard's long standing criticism of Mr. Dyson and his vacuums.

Dusty is right on the money.  Dyson's claim to fame in the vacuum industry is that it facilitated today's vacuum consumers to look at $500 plus vacuums without getting sticker shock.  For that, the Old Guard owes dyson a note of thanks and gratitude. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
The world changes, industry changes, the old guard remains stuck in the past. (I'm generalizing here btw, not taking a shot at you).  The old guard in the auto industry claimed Japan could never make a push into the US with their little cars.  They were wrong and it took decades for them to recover. Dyson has revolutionized the vacuum industry.  Bagless is now the standard for the biggest manufacturers in the industry.  They have all followed Dysons lead. Dyson themselves will now have to change to keep up with the competition that is quickly catching up with them.  I suspect they will but I feel they still have time.  As good as the new Hoover bagless or Bissell bagless may be, consumers will remember the crappy bagless versions of these products they've had in the past.  Those consumers, who want a bagless that works will still step up to Dyson.  It's something we see on a consistant basis. Once again it was the old guard that was slow to react to something new (bagless) and once again it has taken years to try and catch up.

Dusty

Dusty:

HOOVER and BISSELL caught up with dyson [on bagless filtration] as quick as dyson caught up with the industry standard for its brush rolls.  Bagged remains [and more than likely continue] the industry standard for the top tier uprights and canns.  Household users who went with the high price bagless fad don't like to dump daily.  [Even dysons are messy and a major nuisance to dump].  Bagless will become the standard for specialty cleaners [handvacs, sticks] and commercial use. 

I suspect as the cheaper copies give dyson a run for its money at the big box stores [as they are already], and with the recessionary world economies, especially in the housing markets, dyson will look to the commercial vacuum market with its expensive bagless.  It will be dyson's way to sure up lagging home vacuum sales.  Dyson will do well there IMHO, IF:  One, dyson increases the dirt bin capacity; and Two: dyson  maintains its product reliability rating by Consumer Reports. 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Hey Carmine,

Mr. Dyson, and the great majority of vacuum manufacturers use brushrolls that date back 100 years or so, are in the public domain and who's inventors have long deceased.

.

Hoover and Bissell simply reversed engineered a very much alive inventor/s inventions - James Dyson and his teams 3 to 4 year old technologies, did it legally, not better. - Although I will give Hoover and Bissell the nod for slothfulness.        DIB

CarmineD wrote:
I'll bet you claimed that the electric light bulb would never replace the kerosene lantern and that the commode was just a fad and everyone would go back to the out house.

Hello guys:

Unfortunately in one regard, Mr. Dyson, and his new age vacuum industry, did not profit from the errors made in the auto industry by the Old Guard.  He took a page right from the GM playbook which was better left unturned.

In its quest to capture market share GM produced too many models on the same theme.  Confused many buyers and more importantly as GM admits today competed against itself for sales of vehicles.

Sound familiar? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Sounds more like Hoover / Dirt Devil  or Eureka rather than Dyson. Eureka show 5 different Captures on their web page, all different colors and only a few different features between them.  On top of that you can by Eureka's Altima and Maxima bagless models too.  If that's not competing against yourself I don't know what is.

Dusty

Hi Dusty:

Very true, but keep in mind that the big box stores are noted for wanting new models to sell annually and the brands you mentioned including dyson accomodate them. 

How often do the indy vacuum store brands like RICCAR/Simplicity, ORECK, Lindhaus, Kirby, Aerus, SEBO, Miele, and Royal [more in line price wise with dyson] launch new models?   Not every year. 

Look at the proliferation of dysons since its launch in the USA: 

2002, DC07 and host of variations [primarily as exclusives for retail stores]. 

2003, DC14 and host of variations [primarily as exclusives for retail stores]. 

2004, DC11.  Scrubbed after 9 months. 

2005, DC15 Ball and a host of variations [primarily as exclusives for retail stores]. 

2006, DC16,17,18, 20/21. 

2007, reprieve, due to Air Blade, probably and opening a new HS for engineers. 

2008, DC18 [Allergy and asthma], DC22/23 and DC24 and DC25 and the year isn't over yet!    

Now, look at the market share of dysons in the USA in sku's during this time: 

2002, about 3-4 percent [with the DC07] for partial year. 

2003, about 6 percent [with the DC07 and DC14]. 

2004, about 8 percent [with 2 models: DC07 and DC14]. 

2005, about 9 percent. [with 3 models: DC07, DC14, DC15].

2006, about 9 percent. [with 3 models for full year: DC07, DC14, DC15 and partial year: DC17, DC18, DC20/21].

In 2007, about 10 percent and since has been declining.  With 6 dyson models for the entire year [DC07, DC14, DC15, DC17, DC18, DC20/21].  4 new on top of the DC07 and DC14.  I didn't count the DC16, tho I suspect dyson may in market share.

Almost no increase in market share in 3 years with 4 new dyson models added to the original DC07 and the DC14. 

2008:  market share ??  Add new models: DC22/23, DC24, DC25 and the year isn't over yet!.  I didn't count the DC17 Allergy and Asthma which is an updated model from the original DC17.

2009: market share??    New models: ??? 

Time will tell.  But............I agree with JUST, the glory days of dyson in the USA are over.  Now comes the time for dyson to settle in with the given products and carve out the dyson vacuum market in the USA for the future.  I suspect it will be in the range of 6-7 percent per year in units IF the US economy rebounds soon. 

Dyson has made numerous exclusives [variations on the dyson theme] in models DC07, 14, 15, 18 for SEARS, BEST BUY, Wal*Mart, TARGET, COSTCO, and K-Mart stores.  How many indy dealer exclusives did it make in 6 years in the USA?

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine.

I do not recall ever disagreeing with you about Dyson's marketing strategy.  I even compared it to Hoover and implied that it could be their downfall.  Who needs 7 varieties of the DC07 or any other model for that matter.  They could just as easily make a single model is each series and sell it for the price of the lowest price model.  The standard model is as good as the animal or others in a series given the accessories.  It is just as ridiculous that some of the expensive brands that are exclusive to indiys make attachments an option as opposed to standard.  No way would I pay $500 or more and then be charged for attachments.

As for performance you are off in left field and the ball was hit to the right field   

CarmineD wrote:
You have to decide where you are going to classify Dyson.  Is it a high end vac or a box store vac?  I believe it's a box store vac, price has no bearing.  Dyson changes just like the other manufacturers and they have to in order to compete.  If Dyson were an indy brand I could see standing pat with a few different models and not changing frequently but that is not where the bulk of their product is sold.  Changes will continue not only for Dyson but all the other box brands as well.  It keeps the consumer interested.

Dusty

dusty wrote:

Dusty/HS:

You're both right, and dyson is a big box store venue vacuum.  Hence the plethora of variations on the theme for the same model but nothing new for the indies.

But..........dyson's prices compete with the indy store brands.  Dusty said as vacuum buyers tire of the cheap big box bagless, they stepped up to a dyson.  As they tire of a dyson, they are, after spending $500 plus for a dyson, buying indy store bagged brands with less anxiety.  I agree, but only in part. 

Budget is the overriding factor facing many big box store shoppers and product brands.  Dyson customers with a DC07, DC14, and DC15 will, as their vacuums fall out of warranty and/or experience repair problems, revert to the cheaper bagless models that are so pervasive now by HOOVER, BISSELL, EUREKA, EURO-PRO, and  DIRT DEVIL in the big box retailers.  It's happened already.  Watch the big box store weekly vacuum ads.  You rarely ever see the once dominant dysons advertised unless they are dyson clearances.  Not the DC24 and DC25.  Dyson's latest and greatest.   Invisible.  Why? All the less expensive vacuum makes and models prevail in the ads.  Budget of its shoppers is now utmost on the minds of the big box retailers.

If you look at the stats I posted on dyson models and market share over the years, a dyson plateau for market share has been reached in the USA and is and will keep falling off.  My suspicion is, among non-budget conscience consumers, who took the dyson plunge and regret it, they will convert to the sales of indy store vacuum brands.  These are increasing.  Why?  Repeat dyson vacuum buyers turn away from new dysons like the ball and lightweight.  Especially with the filter issues now raised by dyson.  Need proof?  Hey, HARDSELL come in here out of left field and tell us your personal buying/using experiences with the dyson DC07, DC14 and the Royal Emminence.  Did you buy a new dyson yet?    

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
Box stores rarely advertise anything high end.  Large prices don't bring customers in, bargains do.  Miele is sold in department stores but you hardly ever see them advertised.  Does this mean there is no market for them and they are soon to be extinct?  There is always a market for upscale box store merchandise.  Why do people pay $100 for a coffee maker when you can have one for $20?  They both make coffee, why spend the money?

I'm not so sure Dyson owners would revert to cheaper bagless models if their Dyson is in need of repair or replacement. The reason many of them own a Dyson is the bad experience they had with other branded bagless in the first place.  Dyson, for all it's faults still has one of the highest customer re-buy ratings in the industry.  People will always spend the money if they have been satisfied with their product.  Knock Dyson all you like but for the most part they are a trouble free machine, especially when compared to Hoover or Dirt Devil.

When did wanting a customer to check a filter as part of the maintenance of a vacuum become an issue? An issue would be if the filters were faulty, which they are not.

Dusty

Dusty:

I have not seen/heard what the percentages are for repeat dyson business.  I have to conclude from the information I have the rates are not impressive, either here or in the UK. 

Since its launch 6 years ago in the USA, dyson vacuums have been advertised weekly on a frequent and regular bases by all the big box stores.  That's changed.  In large part due to the worsening economic conditions in the USA.   In the USA, Mieles are sold primarily by authorized indy dealers not in big box retailers.  They don't advertise.  But the Miele reputation in the industry for lasting 20 years is general knowledge and its German engineering is reknown.  

There are so many dyson DC07 and DC14 refurbs for sale I have to conclude that these are problematic and the owners are not repairing/keeping them.    

A $100 coffee maker vice a $20?  Compared to a $500 vacuum vice a $120.  Both do the same job.  No!  Can't compare IMHO.  Not the same.  Why? With gas prices soaring, and STARBUCKS prices rising [and stores shuttered], coffee drinkers justify a $100 coffee maker easily that grinds beans [less expensive than ground] and measures out an individual cup or 2 with specialty tastes and variations.  Preferred over a $20 version that makes a standard pot of 10/12 cups [with ground coffee] and half getting tossed. 

We'll have to wait and see about repeat dyson buyers and users, with models like the DC07 and DC14, that claimed yearly filter maintenance, and now with the DC24 and DC25 that need monthly/quarterly maintenance [with no corresponding decline in prices].  Too soon to tell with the DC24 and DC25 only months old.  Certainly it will at a minimum make repeat dyson buyers take pause and ask why.  What do you say?  Well, you have the new [old] dyson ball technology?  Good luck. 

Product maintenance on a consumer durable purchase like vacuums is always problematic.  Be honest.  That's how dyson originally pitched its high priced vacuums as superior to bagged versions.  No maintenance.  Zero costs after purchase.  Right?  Wrong.  Time is money.  And, the more you wash filters, the quicker they wear out and need replacing.  No more zero costs for maintenance after purchase. 

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

Carmine D.

Lots of pictures, mostly of the DC22 here.

Hi DIB

Thanks for the link to the pictures of the DC22 etc...  Nice to see the DC01, DC02 and DC03 in the back ground!  The DC03 should make a come back with some improvements on it including the DDM!   You can see just how small the DDM is in comparison to a standard motor!

Didn't realise how big the filter on the DC22 is!

DC18

Hi DIB,

More great pictures, especially of the DC12 that I like (and wish was sold in the US).   And wouldn't we all love to get our hands on one of those DDM display/demo cases?!

-MH

I wouldn't mind getting my hands on the Dyson Vacuum with the DDM in it!

DC18