Vacuum Cleaners Discussions

Apparently there's a new Dyson model that will be launched in February at the VDTA Convention.  I don't know any further specifics on whether or not it's going to be a canister or upright, but apparently all attendees of the show will be able to see it and place their orders.  I wonder if the $899 pricetag will be a detriment to sales, or are Americans willing to pay a premium for superior performance and space-age motor technology?

Has anyone else heard anything yet?  I'm curious to know what it is as I bought the DC21 right when it came out in March.  That and the DC17 are the only ones that impressed me so far, it will be interesting to see how this one is.

I would really like to see a new flagship upright with the newer Ball pivot, Core Separation, DDM, and a brushless sonic cleaning head (what I would expect from a $900 Dyson upright)....but it's probably just the DC22.

Motorhead,

 

Dyson typically has a launch-event in NY when he introduces his new inventions.  These launch-events garner much exposure and/or press.  A $900 Dyson vacuum? - Is he targeting the Miele’s or alike high end niche?   The DC22 seems the most likely to be released.  I can see him launching a commercial vacuum at the VDTA but not a revolutionary consumer vacuum like the DC22 (IMO).        DIB

Hi iMacDaddy,

One of the things I would LOVE to see Dyson release would be an upright (DC17 variant perhaps?) with DDM technology.  I'd also like to see the DC15/Ball design re-worked...it seems like a decent machine, but to me there are quite a few shortcomings that don't have to be there, the side suction channel being one of them.  Have you seen the video on YouTube of the DC15 not able to pick up a piece of paper from the edge?  I tried it with my DC21 (will get around to a video after I finish a few projects) where the suction channel in the Motorhead is in the center, and it did fine.

The worst Dyson there was, in my opinion, was that horrid DC11 Telescope canister.  Talk about no bang for the buck, I'm glad that thing is gone, the DC21 is 100 times better and is the "traditional" Dyson canister shape (like the UK DC05 Motorhead and of course the Fantom-made Lightning here), not some strange-looking twin-chamber monstrosity that performs poorly on top of that.  I don't really care for the DC07 or DC14 designs either, truth be known; like the DC15, they could stand a redesign as well...


Hi DIB,

That's another one that I think would have some potential as well, the commercial upright.  It would be perfect for all of that fine dust in commercial settings, "office dirt" as I call it.  Seems like it could also stand the abuse of hotel housekeeping staff very well, plus they would *see* when they needed to empty it instead of the "out of sight, out of mind" mentality they seem to have with their Oreck/Sanitaire/etc. bags.  ;-)

I too am wondering about such a high price, I wonder if this one will be sold in big-box stores or independent only?  Honestly, at $900, it would almost have to have the digital motor.  I can't see anyone in their right mind paying that much for a Dyson with a traditional brush-type Lamb motor over a Miele.

Merry Christmas,
Motorhead

Hi Motorhead,I agree with you,the canisters have not sold well at 500.00, what makes DYSON think they are going to sell at 900.00?.

  MOLE

My two cents…

 

If Dyson could sell the DC22 and the DC12 exclusively (no big box) thru independent retailers, my guess would be that this would be a smart thing for Dyson to do.  Here is why.  Many anti-Dyson vacuum dealers and/or enthusiasts (with vacuum dealers as friends) travel up and down the internet bad mouthing Dyson and his products in reviews and forums.  From eBay to YouTube and anything in between these “vacuum experts” with perhaps much idle time are in my opinion responsible for 70% to 80% of anti-Dyson bad mouthing.  Consumers who walk into an anti-Dyson vacuum dealer get the anti-Dyson education, then these consumers simply post and repeat at online forums this anti-Dyson education.  I’ve seen it plenty of times.  Dyson could convert these dealers with exclusives to two revolutionary and high margin (high margin is just a guess) vacuums, the DC22 and DC12.  Dyson could easily cut the negative online reviews and posts in half by giving the dealers these exclusives and hopefully profits.        DIB

Hi D.I.B., My suggestion to you would be to check out the HISTORY of vacuums and vacuum dealers in the U.S.A., What you are talking about has already FAILED miserably,

READ THIS POST CAREFULLY,

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole,

I’d be glad to read up on vacuum history and/or dealers having exclusives.  I Googled and searched thru AbbysGuide and found nothing on the topic/s as you suggest.  If you would be kind enough to post a link I would appreciate it.  Thanks.        DIB

P.S.  It was a vacuum dealer (a pretty damn smart one too IMO) who suggested to me that the DC12 should be sold only thru independents.  This conversation was before the DC22 launch.

mole wrote:

Consumers and retalilers now have the added adverse impact of the credit crunch due to the US housing market going belly up.  Along with rising home and vehicle fuel costs, consumers are getting squeezed pretty hard in the pocket books.  High priced vacuums at big box retailers are a hard sell.  Maybe dyson will ameliorate the condition by offering financing to buyers of its vacuums on credit. 

Carmine D.

Dyson smartly and finally devised a simple way to help folks keep their Dyson's in its "No Loss of Suction" shape.  Go here.        DIB

Hi DIB,

It is a good offering on the part of Dyson though there's no way of knowing percentage-wise how many owners will be able to avail themselves of the reminder.

Euro-Pro had a subscription service of sorts a few years back.  They sent out replacement filters "x" times per year after you paid an up-front fee.

Best,

Venson

PS -- I accept this as Dyson's admission that "no suction loss" requires a little effort to maintan.  No shame in that.  Rainbow got around to finally admitting that it's dust capture hype might not have been all they'd touted with the addition of a HEPA filter.

Venson wrote:

People aren't taking these claims the right way.  I have seen several people take "no loss of suction" as "I can suck up whatever I want and I wont clog it".  They seem to think that a twig jammed in the U bend and everywhere else packed with dried leaves should be a warranty repair.  Warranties cover defective product, not defective user...

Vacuuman wrote:

This has always been true of some customers with vacuums under warranty.  For example, I recall a husband and wife coming into my store with a new HOOVER canister under warranty shortly after the Christmas holidays.  I was an authorized warranty HOOVER dealer and the vacuum was purchased at a big box retailer for a Christmas present.  When the suction stopped, the lady called the big box retailer which quickly directed her to my store.

She caught a nylon stocking in the hose.  Zero suction at the hose end.  Perfect suction at the machine.   I removed the hose end and stocking in front of them.  And was willing not to charge for the 10 minute repair.  But the husband expected the repair for free and was not appreciative of my willingness not to charge.  Not the wife.  When I "claimed" that a repair fee was allowable because the warranty didn't cover user fault [read stupidity] he still resisted.  And still claiming warranty privileges.  The wife was of a different mind than her husband and was willing and wanting to pay.  To avoid an argument between the two in my place of business, which I said out loud to the husband, I agreed that was the reason I would not charge.  I said a few dollars is not worth a husband and wife quarrel so soon after Christmas.  The husband, by this time feeling guilty, quickly changed his mind and handed me a $5 bill which of course I took.  And I passed it along to my nephew after the couple went on their merry way.  The business lesson was worth much more than the $5.

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Do us a favor and dont start this nonsense AGAIN,

MOLE

mole wrote:

Mole, your actions and language speak for itself.  I, not you, know how to get folks from Google and onto my posts and Ads By Google.  Quit embarrassing yourself with your immaturity, get out of the way and let me make Abbysguide some money.        DIB

Vacuuman wrote:

Vacuman,

I quite agree that Dyson's "no loss" messaging can and/or is confusing/misleading.  Dyson need only to better educate his customers.  There is no reason folks should not be fully aware their Dyson's can and do clog in time.  Apple computer is guilty of this too.  Steve Jobs used to sell folks on the iMacs small learning curve buy showing and highlighting tiny Apple manuals in their commercials versus a PC's.  Macs are super easy to use but that easy.        DIB

Venson wrote:

Venson,

I appreciated your response here today and have in the past, even when I disagree.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Here's a possible reason. 

Several months ago I was walking to my vehicle with my dear Wife after leaving the local COSTCO in N. Las Vegas.  As I approached my vehicle, a woman in her early to mid 30's was locking her car getting her infant son, and pushing a dyson DC14 COSTCO Exclusive in a store cart toward the direction of the store.   I believe this is the dyson model that sells for $469 at COSTCO.  I walked over to her and asked her what she was doing with the dyson.  She said she was returning it for a refund.  I pardoned myself for intruding and asked her why?  She said the suction wasn't as good as it was when it was new.  I asked her how old the dyson was?  She said a little more than a year old although from what I saw, it looked just slightly used.  I asked if she ever cleaned the filter(s)?  She said without hesitation, No, Never.  I said to her that the filter is probably clogged causing the fall off in suction.  I said the filter needs cleaning every 6 months or so according to the dyson instruction manual, which she had in her hand.  

At this point, I could see she was becoming annoyed.  She said emphatically that when she bought the dyson from COSTCO she was told that it never clogged and never loses suction.  She also told me that she was told it never needs maintenance and will not cost her anything over time and usage.   I asked her if she really believed those claims?  And she said to me I most certainly do and that's why I bought it for $500.  I told her she was lied to on each and every account.  Of course this probably only served to strengthen her resolve to return it.  And we said our good byes.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:
Hi Mole,

I didn't see anything wrong or "nonsensical" about DIB's original post, I think you're being WAY too harsh but I digress.  Unless it's a Level 3 machine (in that case you're good for 6 years), the pre-motor filter *does* have to be cleaned periodically, in this case 6 months.  In fact, I was vacuuming with my DC21 yesterday and since I had not checked it in a while, I decided to see how dirty the pre-motor filter was.  I popped the bin off and opened the cover, and sure enough it had a small amount of dust on it, no doubt from all of the fine dust I had been picking up with the machine.  However, I also noticed that it did not span the entire surface of the filter, and probably did *not* have to be washed yet.  The machine's performance never changed over time.  I rinsed it out anyway, and it seemed most of the dirt was on the surface of the filter.  This was after 9 months, not 6, although I on average probably didn't use the machine as frequently as some.  I certainly did (and still do) give it a workout, though.

Hi Carmine,

That would really be something, financing something like a vacuum cleaner, a step back to the old days.  Can't say I've ever heard of that occurring now, but correct me if I'm wrong.  I honestly don't think Dyson would ever put a $900 vacuum in big box stores.  I would bet that this one will be independent-only, but we'll have to wait and find out.  If it does wind up in big box stores I will be shocked.  The Costco story you mentioned is a classic example of an "average user" not knowing what they're doing, and (to add insult to injury) not taking the time to read the manual.  That's no different than someone using the same paper bag for 6 months, or worse, never changing it at all.  I had to wonder what she was picking up, though, as even in that situation I don't think the performance would drop that significantly over not cleaning the pre-motor filter.  But, stranger things have happened...

Hi Vacuumin,

I agree with what you said about "defective users."  They think that they can suck up a pair of XXL pantyhose/underwear, twigs, and who-knows-what else (maybe we don't want to know) and expect the machine to work as intended.  That's definitely taking the "no loss of suction" claim way too far.  When I think of  "no loss of suction", I think of the machine picking up copious amounts of fine dust without the machine's performance being affected.   I can see how other "average users" with no knowledge of how the machine works or what they can and cannot pick up interpreting that claim differently.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

Dyson IS the most expensive big box store vacuum sold.  And comes with a 5 year limited warranty.   Also a first and only for a big box store vacuum

Carmine D. 

Carmine, I once had a customer tell me to my face that I was lieing to her when i told her she needed to wash the filters regularly.  I have also had customers come in with well used and very dirty Dysons, and claim that the machine never needs any servicing or cleaning at their cost. 

But I have to say the worst ones are the Kirby owners with their "lifetime warranty" that covers everything that ever goes wrong for any reason...     They don't tend to take the news to well.

Vacuuman wrote:

Hello Vacuuman:

The first is a function of the sales and marketing techniques used to sell dyson vacuums in the USA.  Obviously, selling a $500 plus vacuum in the big box stores presented a huge challenge with many obstacles.  2002 was a ripe time for it.  Housing market bubble, good economy, cheap gas, stable dollar, easy credit, full employment, liberal store return/refund policies.  But it's not like this any more.

Dyson had to "wow" buyers with a huge bang for the buck:  Real/perceptual.  Through its "marketeers" and the big box retail stores, dyson promulgated a host of puffed up claims.  They're legendary now:  Never clogs; Never loses suction; Zero maintenance costs; Excellent pick up on all floor and rug surfaces............Many of these claims appeared in dyson literature and on the dyson product cartons.  In the industry, this is called "hawking" and "hyping."  It's been around for years especially among the door-to-door vacuum sales people.  

Most US consumers, like the young lady at COSTCO, are gullible and accept these claims at face value.  We know what PT Barnum said.  The claims are believed as long as the honey moon period for the brand and product lasts.    

The second is a function of the amount of money the person pays for the vacuum.  The more they pay for the vacuum, the more difficult the truth is for them to accept. 

Carmine D.

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Why dont you post your comments the VACUUMLAND forum, with the google shows,see how far you get,Stop hiding under the I SUPPORT INVENTORS B.S..

MOLE/O.T.

Remember, keep it civil.

I understand Mike,out of respect to you and a few others on the forum,You are one of us.

MOLE

The next new dyson launch will consist of at least one new upright model slated for the big box store venue.  Why?

Here are the reasons why. 

If you follow the big box store sales ads from week to week [like me], you notice at least one big box store each week selling dyson upright models at clearance prices.  In some cases in concert with FREE gift cards of $50-$100.  [Something I predicted several months ago as part of the 2007 Holiday Season dyson vacuum sales]. 

This week it is Target advertising the DC07 All Floors for $339 (regular $399) and DC14 Drive Target Exclusive for $389 (regular $459).  Both prices are more than the typical 10 percent off, which is the infamous dyson MAP allowable.

Last week it was Linens & Things with the dyson DC17 Absolute for $549 BEFORE the 20 percent off coupon and FREE $50 Gift card.

Week before, it was BEST BUY with the DC14 All Floors on clearance and a FREE Gift Card.  And so on and so on.

Put it all together and what does it mean?  The big box retailers who sell dysons have permission to break the MAP to clear out the old dyson upright models and make room and money for the new dysons.  No complaints from dyson and/or the retailers because all who want to participate in the sales clearances have permission.

Add the fact that the newest dyson uprights [DC17 Absolute and DC18 Lite] have some substantial retail age on them now.  Big box retailers like to have a constant new crop of vacuums to meet/satisfy customer demand.  In the big box retail industry, a vacuum with a year or more on the market is ready for the product retirement cycle.

Let's see what happens next.

Carmine D.

Vacuuman wrote:

Hi Reggie, Dont you find it a little funny how the usual vacuum cleaner buyer,buys on blind faith,believes every thing the bujambi says to them at the box stores,falls for all the pretty pictures,the borderline false advertising claims,then tells you that your lieing to them,I would put money on it that the retail store HELP has never changed the clutch on a dc07/14.Just keep on selling the parts for dyson......

MOLE

I am not trying to get into a debate of machines, but.  My Nephew and his wife just purchased a Big Bird colored vacuum at our local Sam's Club for a retail price $469.  She used the vac exactly two (2) times.  Dumping the bin after each room she cleaned.  She did so to demonstrate how much dirt she was getting out of each room.   When she pulled it out for it's third cleaning the machine didn't seem to be picking up, after  few minutes the motor just shut down.  They took it back, and was told they would have to send it into the service shop.  They spent all of the christmas holiday with a cheap Dirt Devil vac to tidy up with.  They have now been notified that the vacuum will not be repaired under warranty, because the filters had not been kept clean, and this constitues  misues and abuse thus voiding the warranty.    Apparently the motor is spent. 

I suggested that with as short of time it was owned, they should contact higher ups in the company and request a replacement.  It is currently being considered but they have not heard anything yet.

Just wrote:
(Presumably it's a Dyson cleaner you're talking about??)

If it's only been used twice, then they can hardly be expected to have kept the filters clean. Typically, the filter requires inspection every 6 months, with say two uses per week.
There's a few ways in which the filter can be blocked like this in a short time period. 1) There's a problem with the machine's construction 2) The user has picked up a lot of fine dust in one go 3) The user has allowed the bin to reach the MAX level and continued vacuuming. As long as the machine is used correctly, there's no reason why (in my mind) it shouldn't be replaced.

Just wrote:

Hello Just:

Are you implying that the new dyson vacuum from Sam's Club is a "lemon," as in a defective dud?  If so, then you're insulting the integrity and reputation of Big Bird who is completely innocent and blameless in this matter. 

What's interesting to me is the unwillingness by Sam's Club to exchange the vacuum for a new one/refund the cost.  Is it possible that the return period allowed by Sam's Club has been exceeded?  If not, then I would conclude that Sam's Club Stores, like all other big box retailers, are getting tougher with return policies for vacuums even for those that are problematic.  While I understand the retailer's point of view (it's costly over time to accept returned dyson vacuums for refunds/exchanges) if true (tougher return policies), then it does not bode well for dyson sales.

I recall Mole posting that his local BEST BUY store has 3 dozen returned dysons for sale.  If you do the math for these 35 returned dyson units and extrapolate to the entire BEST BUY store chain, it's a real hefty sum of money to reduce from sales revenue to reach the bottom line [profit].

I recall the VP of TARGET several years back saying in a newspaper interview [when big box stores still had liberal return and exchange policies] that returned "vacuum cleaners" was the single most expensive cost item in figuring the chain's net profit from new vacuum sales.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

I am sorry, I did not mean to insult Big Bird. I was only stating the color of the machine in question.  I believe it was defective and not misused.

I am also not meaning to imply that all of the Yellow/Orange machines are defective, only relaying the service of this particular one.

As I did state, the bin was not allowed to get overfull, as it was emptied after each room cleaned.  The two time it was used was within a week period.  My Nephew, who is a Doctor, is not uninformed on the workings of the world; but was very upset about the manner in which this store acted in regards to this machine.

Just wrote:
Hi Just, Carmine & everyone,

Referencing this and the Costco story that Carmine posted, these problems (that ultimately lead to store returns) are not just limited to Dysons, contrary to ever-popular belief.  No doubt there's a large amount of Hoover WindTunnels, Mach 3's, etc. as well as Dirt Devils being returned as well.  Of course for some reason the Dyson is all we tend to hear about on here ;-)

Just, I'm willing to bet that the machine your nephew had (DC14 I'm guessing, or was it a 15?) was indeed a lemon in one way or another.  I am a firm believer in that stores should not accept returns based on customer abuse or misuse, but this was neither and Sam's should have accepted the return.  The machine itself was just bad, in this case the cyclone assy. was probably defective as it was letting excessive fine dust get into the pre-motor filter.  I have vacuumed an ungodly amount of fine dust with my DC21 and have only had to wash the filter once (this week, after 9 months instead of 6, and even so the dust was only on the surface of the filter).

Carmine's story, regarding the lady taking the machine back to Costco, is an example of misuse.  The manual clearly states that the pre-motor filter has to be washed every 6 months under regular use.  In that case, Costco should not have accepted the return.   This is the same as not cleaning out the filter on a nasty filtered bagless (though I can see why most wouldn't want to, yuk!), or not changing the bag in a bagged machine.  No machine is perfect, yet, and will always require some degree of work to maintain top performance, whether it be changing the bag or cleaning the pre-motor filter. 

Truth be known, even as a Dyson user and supporter, I don't care for the DC07, DC14, and DC15 designs.  The DC07 design, while fascinating when introduced (and helped Dyson get their foot in the door in the American market) is going on 10 years old and is for the most part outdated in a company that is always (and needs to be) on the leading edge of innovation.  The DC14 is essentially that same design with minor tweaks, still using the DC07's horrible nozzle and brushroll.  The DC15 looked good on paper but the rug nozzle design is (in my opinion) horrible and severely affects performance.  Those three models seem to be the "token machines" used in anti-Dyson propaganda (at least from what I've seen) and should be dropped.  Dyson needs to focus on what's good now, the DC17, 18, 21, and future models.  Speaking of that, I noticed the closeout on the DC07/14 in Target as well; they're dropping the two (with the exception of the pink breast cancer DC07) to carry the DC17 Absolute and DC18 Slim uprights.

-MH

Motorhead wrote:

My sense is that the reason that dyson gets the Forum coverage for defects and returns is because it is by far the highest priced vacuum sold by the big box retailers.  When yours is the highest price, in most cases 2X and 3X the average price of a new vacuum sold in America, consumers expect that it is deserving and worthy of the price.  Dyson supporters like to maintain as a defense for the high dyson price:  You get what you pay for.  Well, evidently not all the time.

Since the Sam's Club Store will not exchange the defective dyson, the question now becomes what will dyson do about the defective dyson product?  Dyson can't impose its wishes on the Sam's Store policies.  But dyson can make the buyer whole again by exchanging the defective dyson for a new one, at no expense. 

I would expect and anticipate that a muti-billion dollar vacuum company selling $500 priced products, and prides itself on employing 500 engineers and spending millions of dollars yearly on R & D costs, would replace a defective product with a new one without hesitation.   

Carmine D. 

Motorhead wrote:

Is Target the only retailer scrubbing the DC07/DC14?  Or, are others following suit?  Or don't you know for sure?  I've heard some rumors from the grapevine about dyson and just wondering if others heard too.

Carmine D.

How do you think the 1914 Cadillac you showed us from ebay on another forum would compare with the Dyson?!  (only kidding)

I share a Texas connection with you.  Lived in Houston for a year and 13 years in Fort Worth, where I graduated from TCU a long time ago!  Went from 6th grade through college bachelors degree in Texas.

You present very interesting, intelligent, and clear information in your posts.  Thanks for sharing.

MH,

I think I have confused you with another vacuum enthusiast.  My apologies.

CarmineD wrote:

How very true........

Attention all!

DYSON DC23

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/476c88daa9b602fbc12570990038ef4b/ad021c22658bf9dec12573ad0030d8e3?OpenDocument

DC23, now that's interesting, I wonder what it will be in relation to the DC22?  Guess we'll have to wait and see...

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

It's safe to say, without contradiction, that US consumers hold higher priced appliances including vacuums to higher standards. 

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,you very well know what i'm talking about,after the consumer plunks 500.00 plus for a cleaner and feels like they been had[taken in by the hype],they find it very difficult to spend their hard earned dollars on another high priced vacuum,Using dyson for example, 500.00 plus for a cleaner that lasts no longer than a run of the mill hoover tempo,panasonic upright, etc,that costs under the 100.00 mark.The average vacuum cleaner sales person dont care about you or your family's needs,You know the Kirby credo.YOU are the prey and were the vultures...........

MOLE

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

I'd recommend the $60 HOOVER Tempo over a $500 dyson any day in every way and not think twice.  I did so on vacuum Forums for years before Consumer Reports said exactly the same as me: CR recommended the HOOVER Tempo over the $469 dyson DC18 Lite [Slim].  

Carmine D.

Mole,

I realize I will probably be eaten alive for this but. . .

I have no experiences with the Dyson beyond the story I posted about my Nephew and his wife's machine.  However, I have had experience with Kirbys.  There are some major differences between the Kirby and the Dyson.  The Kirby will still be running and doing a beauitful job 30 years after the Dyson has met the garbage heap.   If the Kirby should break down, you can always find a repair shop willing to work on it.  Kirby's parts are readily available, and Kirby will always be available to rebuild the machine for a nominal fee returning it to it's original condition and performance. 

Again I may not be giving Dyson it's dues because I have no experience with them, but I have been pushing a Kirby since I could walk so I admit being partial.    I have a Omega purchased new on May 30, 1975 that is still used at least twice a week.  The only thing not original on that machine is the brush roll and belts.   I also have a Ultimate G, but if the truth be told; I love the Omega the most.

DC23 might well be the first canister featuring Level3 cyclone AKA 'core separation'. Dyson will have been looking to get this in their canister range as soon as possible, so that they can capitalise on the benefits. Maybe it'll have the digital motor option?

There's the outside chance it might be a variant of the DC12 (tiny canister), which is still currently only available in Japan. I personally hope that something like this is introduced to the market soon. I still don't have a Dyson cleaner at home because I'm forever waiting on this one!

Just wrote:

Hello Just;

In my opinion, your conclusions about dyson vice Kirby are valid and accurate.  And your personal experience is proven based on present and past vacuum industry experience.  However, dyson was never and still isn't concerned about comparisons to Kirby [and dyson coming up lacking].   Dyson markets its vacuum products against the big box retail store makes and models.  The new vacuums priced at average and below average prices.  Offering an alternative to buyers who want better vacuums but are not willing to go with the industry stalwarts and icons sold door to door and/or at the independent vacuum stores.  Regardless of what you think of dyson's products, this was excellent marketing strategy and perfectly timed for launch in the US market.

The upshot of dyson's [and other big box store brands] indifference to comparisons to the better and best vacuums on the market is the ever increasing likelihood that high end US vacuum buyers become frustrated and disgusted with the big box store brands.  As American consumers are more concerned about quality purchases and higher standards [especially in light of the whole China fiasco] and contemplate $400, $500 and $600 vacuum purchases from big box retail stores, they will scoff at dyson [and other big box retail store vacuum brands].  Part ways with big box retailers for vacuum purchases in favor of the industry icons like Kirby, Royal, Aerus, RICCAR, ORECK, Miele, Sebo, Bosch, Lindhaus, and the other top tier vacuum brands.  Not just new models but used and rebuilt models ala Mole and Venson's comments on another thread.  Big box retailers know this and realize that the "new vacuum buying mindset" [not necessarily buying new] for quality is setting in already with high end US buyers.   In short, Americans are fed up with the China crap.  Period.  And looking for better alternatives: The quality and proven vacuum brands both new and used.

Carmine D.

M00seUK wrote:

Hello M00seUK:

I agree with you.  Look at the signature dyson products in the USA and abroad.  The successful ones are the pint size not the full size which have failed miserably to impress the industry: DC07, 14 and 15 are scoffed at by even the dyson enthusiasts on the Forums.  The DC11 was the laughing stock of the industry for canisters.  The mini's like the DC18  and the Japanese canister have fared the best.  And dyson prices them just as high as the full sized.  The poses a question for dyson.  How long can it survive, let alone flourish, by building a reputation for producing and marketing so so full sized vacuum products at premium prices? 

Carmine D.

Carmine,

Thank you for validating me. 

 I did not mean to be knocking the Dyson, because as I said I have no experience with them.  In an effort to not compare apples to bananas I will say that from what I have heard the Dyson is the best among the bagless machines. 

 

Hello M00seUK

I thought the DC22 (Canister) which was laucnhed in Japan had the new 'Core' Separation Cyclone system already?  This I know is only available in Japan which has 4 models 2 with the DDM and 2 with conventional motors!

DC18

Hi DC18 and M00seUK,

If you look at the pictures in the other thread you'll notice that the DC22 is in fact a Level 3 machine.  Not sure about the DC23, though I would bet it is similar.

-MH

Hello Motorhead

Yes it does, I would think any new model like the DC22 will feature the new Level 3 'Core' technology and even some have the DDM as standard!  There was a web link on this post but has since been removed with some info for the DC23!?

DC18

Just wrote:

Hello Just:

While that may have been true [dyson is the best among bagless] when the DC07 was launched in 2002, I'm not sure it still is today and for the future.  Of course, "best" is in the eyes of the judge.  But more prevalent and pervasive now, almost 6 years later, are a plethora of competitive upright bagless models in a wide range of prices. 

Carmine D.

Dyson DC25!

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/67a4b04f48e1555cc12570a0005f3d1b/27491e48a580f85fc125739f0046cf6b?OpenDocument

Dyson DC24!

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/67a4b04f48e1555cc12570a0005f3d1b/1b1ab99598dc20fbc125739f0040da38?OpenDocument

DC22!

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/67a4b04f48e1555cc12570a0005f3d1b/c7c207d79d3e532cc12573b0005661e4?OpenDocument

Phew!

I'm knackered, what with all this excitement! LOL

Airblade AB02:

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/00da74fc6c8af427c12570990038ef4a/2e06b80a6739f65bc12572dd00300da1?OpenDocument

Airblade AB03 (in addition to the original AB01):

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/00da74fc6c8af427c12570990038ef4a/78440788302c79d5c125735d003bf590?OpenDocument

DC12 (modified test application, apparently)

http://certificates.iecee.org/cbtestcert/cbtestcert.nsf/00da74fc6c8af427c12570990038ef4a/c4976474deb823dec12572d60057034d?OpenDocument

I hear, haven't seen, that the City of New York opened new public bathrooms.  I presume in part for the Pope's visit in April.  I'm curious: Did dyson pitch for/win the hand drier business with the dyson AirBlade?  Anyone know and care to share with the Forum.

BTW, after 1 1/2 years on the market, I still have not seen/heard of dyson AirBlades in use anywhere in the USA.  Has anyone else?  Any major/minor dyson sales of this product to US businesses like hotels, schools, restaurants, casinos, theaters, sports complexes and/or arenas, airports,city, state, county, municipal, federal gov't buildings?  Anywhere?  Even in homes yet?

My sense is that dyson would publish and broadcast this kind of information worldwide as a product promotion to win acclaim.  Any available information on the actual sales numbers and dollars of this dyson product yet? 

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine,

We get nervous here just going to ATMs much less public johns.  You never know who's around and by the time you do there's usually no cops there to hear your screams . . .

I have seen/used just one high-velocity hand dryer here and it wasn't Dyson's.  Can't recall the brand name or the place I saw it, just that it looked rather like the usual type but had a high-bowered air blast that did the job quickly and relatively well.  There are other companies now manufacturing hand dryers claimed to dry your hands in as little as ten to fifteen seconds.  Most notable though was that the design of the machine I saw was totally uncomplicated and would only require two or three seconds to wipe clean. 

Dyson would have a hard time landing a deal with the city if the price on the Air Blade is not competitive with the more general type of hand dryer.  The finer points of the better mouse trap and the better hand dryer would probably go over the heads of most of the officials they'd have to pitch to but then again there's always bribery to fall back on when all else fails.

In any event, Dyson's design doesn't lend to easy clean up.  The folks tending to our subways and public areas though in no way lackadaisical about their work aren't much enthused by challenges so, again due to design, I think the Air Blade would suffer hit and miss maintenance.  Dyson would have to offer lowest possible cost plus strong assurances that maintenance is easy.

Best,

Venson

M00seUK wrote:
Now it's looking like a Upright and Canister and hopefully all will come with the new Digital Motor...

Re:  Airblade:  The Dyson annual report along with its Airblade, in the news.  Here.

.

Re:  IECEE links:  Thanks Trilobite.  I know DC18 wanted to share this too, either way it is appreciated.  James Dyson invents, and so it's not hard to predict new inventions and/or new product categories coming throughout this and next year (it is long overdue).        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

Is the article dated November 5, 2007 and/or May 11, 2007?  I'm inclined to believe it is May 11, 2007 and archived on November 5, 2007.   If that is the case, the information is for 2006 calendar year, not 2007.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Moose posted this, perhaps his info is most current.  Here.        DIB

Same old 2006 dyson stuffess.  Nothing from dyson for 2007 yet.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
I haven't seen the AirBlade anywhere either, yet, which is a disappointment since I would like to see and use one.  Here it's only paper towels, or your standard World hand dryer (sometimes other brands). 

Since the AirBlade uses the DDM, I wonder if James built that solely to test the DDM in a real-world application to see how it would hold up, before moving on to using it in vacuums?

Motorhead wrote:

If so, the dyson strategy, which is very costly [funding two new products with the same technology at the same time] back-fired.  No sales for the AirBlade, no test results, huge sunk costs for the product with no tangible benefits.

A better dyson business strategy is determining which one of the two new products is likely to be successful and profitable.  Then, go with the one.  Get the sales and profits from the product before undertaking a  spin-off product with the same technology.  Rather than taking dual risks and costs that both products may have dismal results leaving the company with double the sunk costs for 2 failed products.  

The dyson core business is vacuums.  Use the DDM in a new vacuum product and market it first and foremost, before using the "unproven" technology on an unrelated product [like a hand drier].  This gives the added benefit of reducing the retail price of the spin-off product [hand drier].  Why?  Much of the R&D costs of the DDM would be amortized and deducted over the life cycle of the new vacuum sales, making the costs [losses] for the spin off product less and potentially the profits more [if there are sales].  And another benefit, a lower retail price can be set for the spin-off product.   

Still another benefit of honing in on one product first for the new technology, is getting it to the market quicker.  This In turn gets the spin-off technology product to the market quicker too.  Plus, management has more knowledge,  based on the new technology experience, to decide if it will be profitable to bring the spin-off product to the market.   Plain and simple business common sense.

Carmine D.

We've had two Dyson Airblade units installed at the shopping mall near where I live. It's perfect for the site as the washroom in question is very small and the last thing you need is people in queues for the hand drier. Its digital motor is noticeably different in sound to the conventional type - you can hear it soft start and finish and as described, the airflow heats up within a few seconds due to the high velocity.

I've never seen the airblade units in need of an urgent clean - it looks like it'll be just fine being cleaned as part the daily routine. One point is that as long as the digital motor holds up, I'd imagine it'll give many more hours between servicing than a standard type. At the business centre where my office is, the shared washrooms regularly have hand driers where the heater element has failed. It can go a very long time before it is reported to someone and even longer before it's fixed.

Recent case studies PDF downloads have been added to the Dyson Airblade web site :-

http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/why/case_studies/

Recent patent filings suggest that Dyson is continually looking to increase the efficiency of the manufacturing process with the digital motor to make the cost more competitive to a standard motor type. Reliability is important and I suspect that the DC12's 'phone home' feature was more about getting back usage reports 'in the field' than providing enhanced customer service - from what I can work out from the DC22 photos, they're no longer using this feature? Lastly, the sound levels need to be reduced as much as possible. I understand that the DC12s with digital motor have a 'turbo' power setting for this reason.

Very interesting that there appears to be two new airblade models in the pipeline. I wonder what the improvements might be? Cost could be one. A hand sanitizer could also feature - if you look up Dyson's peroxide making unit patent it suggests uses including a dishwasher, but also for hand sanitation. Although with regards to a germ control application (e.g. in hospitals) would this add any real benefit over existing wall mounted hand sanitizers? Maybe they can further improve the drying time; maybe they can further control the noise level.

 

The DDM from past articles I've read was adapted for the Airblade so there may be differances from the one that is in the DC12\DC12 Plus in Japan.  The basis of the DDM is used in both!  I'm sure Dyson will continue to develope this project - Dyson Digital Motor.  I personally don't think he used the Airblade to test the DDM's use in a wider area, the DC12 in Japan has given the Dyson enough proof I would of thought to say it works hence the DC22 in Japan.   Dyson is probably already on the 3rd, 4th generation of the DDM and from what M00seUK says 'to increase the efficiency of the manufacturing process', and I also believe to make the motor even smaller and the electronics that go with it!

One thing that is a little strange is apart from the Airblade now, why Dyson has not launched the DDM in a vacuum in the UK!?  After all it is where it all began mainly!

DC18

Airblade:  The Dyson Airblade exhibiting at the Consumer Electonics Show.  News article here.  Dyson’s exposure to deep pocketed, high tech exhibitors (alone) justifies Airblades presence.

.

Will the Airblade fail?  I hope not.  Can it succeed?  It should. - Look no further than Mitsubishis' (successful?) Jet Towel.  The Airblade technologies and features smoke Jet Towel’s (IMO).  There is plenty of info on the web to do your own comparisons.  Dyson has only one competitor at this price – Mitsubishi, those are good odds.  Dyson got the attention of Mitsubishi - the Jet Towel came to the US only after Dyson announced plans to market his Airblade here in the US.

.

I know someone who knows little of Dyson and does not use his products.  She told me she used an Airblade at a restaurant.  “It was awesome, I love it.”, was her comment.  Restaurants who offer this Airblade in their washrooms cannot fail in the minds of its customers.  Never mind if it is cost effective or not, it is a win/win for both customer and restaurant owners.  Paper towels should be provided as well.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

A public restroom hand drier just doesn't appeal to me as a consumer electronic device.  The CES in LV has become unwieldy in recent years with all the various venues of electronics bombarding consumers all at the same time.  My sense is that the CES will be partitioned into key consumer segments of electronic gismos and offered in several different shows in the near future vice one conglomeration.  Even with that, the dyson AirBlade wouldn't be well suited for any CES venue.  It's more or less a "toaster" in form and function.  Now, add a screen with wireless cable channels and it may fly as a CE. 

I believe there is at least one more air hand drier on the market beside dyson and Mitsubishi.  It is the one that won the contract for use in the new NY public restrooms. 

Carmine D.

Hiya Carmine,

Funny the subject should come up but per the Times the Big Apple doesn't appear to be going for anything out of the ordinary for the everyday public other than a flower arrangement or two.  Do you think "The Donald" might have picked up some for a few of his spots?

Bryant Park

The Port Authority Bus Station

Another part of the Port Authority

Our first pay toilet -- and almost as fancy as we get until you hit the Waldorf.

Best,

Venson

Venson wrote:

Hello Venson:

Thanks for the pics and clarification.  All the casinos and hotels I've visited in LV use the conventional hand drying means too, like the big Apple.  There's a new one being built closeby to me and due to open in Nov 2008.  Have to see what they use in the WC.

The "Trumpster" may spring for a few dyson AirBlades at his new Trump Tower in LV but like all things with the Donald it always depends on what's in it for him.  Sanitaires and ORECKS are the vacuums of choice from my observations.  Even at the recent CES.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

Carmine,

Since a good portion of Silicon Valley exhibits at CES, Airblade’s presence and exposure (to them) is justified.  Certainly CES exhibitors have Biotech friends who may appreciate and can afford a non-fecal-bacteria throwing hand dryer such as the Airblade’s.        DIB

DysonInventsBig wrote:

The last time silicon valley joined forces with biotechnolgy "hooters" was born.  This week's Las Vegas Exhibition of the AVN is a much better venue for 'hooters" than the CES.

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:

As a family man and father of young kids...  don't get me goin on Hooters.        DIB

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!

Back to dyson:  Do you think that dyson will suffer from a downside in sales with consumers due to the frequent update in his vacuums?  Especially with the canisters, if in fact it is a canister model? 

Carmine D.

CarmineD wrote:
That will be interesting.  Even though it's been out for 10 months, there hasn't been much talk about the Dyson DC21; it seems people tend to prefer the upright models.  However, the way I see it is that Dyson has something good with their canister design.  The design itself is not new; it started with the DC02 and while it has undergone modifications/improvements over the years, it is basically the same.  Remember the Fantom Lightning canister here?  Basically the same as the DC02, and you can see the DC21/22 resembles it in some ways.  Whether James himself and/or executives realize it or not is beyond me, but it almost seems like they should be pushing their canisters much more than they have been.  The DC11 Telescope design was (to me) both a flop and an embarrassment, and because of that I could see how some would not give current Dyson canisters much attention.  But with good marketing that potential problem could be easily overcome; people would look at it and see that it is a completely different machine.   I can say this from my experience using (and owning) the DC21 and knowing what a stellar performer it is.  On top of that, it is much more simple (namely the dirt path which is very direct); many "areas of complaint" on the uprights (complex ducting, leaky seals, little airflow, etc.), namely the DC07/14/15, are absent on this machine.

Just my 2-cents.

-MH

Hi Motorhead,

Your two cents is always of value.  However,  I just wanted to run this by you.  I just saw a first real test. 

I took a trip to Best Buy tonight and the vacuum aisle was a wasteland as usual.  Nothing but a Hoover or two, the obligatory handful of Dirt Devils of course, a Bissell and some beat up Dyson uprights and the DCV21 canister. I will have to admit that I've become curious about the DC21.  Why because a Dyson pitch video from HSN turned up on You Tube.  Okay . . .

A thing  I distinctly remember is that the host of the  "show" went about attacking fluff, cat littter and coffee grounds with the DC21 after which, despite the overfilled bin,  he showed that though there was dust residue at the inlet of the dust bin there was none in the airway after the filter just above it.  Naturally this was the first thing I went looking for. Oh, let me not leave this out -- the Best Buy in my neighborhood has to be just about the funkiest there is since they follow absolutely no rules.  That means that staff still has been using the display model to clean with.   Besides that spotted the "Slim Jim" way off in the computer department  and not looking all that dapper either.

Not meaning to digress -- The very clouded bin on the display model made it obvious that it had beeun used for clean up.  Naturally the first thing I did was remove the dust bin to take a peek at the airway at the top of the dust container and of course do the finger test.  A swipe of a finger inside showed that there was a good coating of dust in the top section of the dust bin.  The airway for outgoing air that it seals against it was also quite dusty  inside.  Sadlly, I found not much of a  cyclonic miracle had occured.  And I say sadly because I'd like to have seen one.

This does not mean that I dismiss the DC21.  I'd expect the same signs of fallability from my Iridium or any other similarly built canister under the same real life conditions.  Old or new, I'd like Dyson more if I had more of a feeling it was being developed to endure a certain modicum of carelessness with a purer result.

Best,

Venson

The dc21 will never take off in the states,reasons are obvious.

1 way over priced.

2 way over HYPED,as usual.

3 american buyers are finally smartening up to the vacuum cleaner[thats suppose to revolutionize the industry].HA.HA.HA.

4 the dealers that sell or have sold Dyson are getting the backlash of selling this overpriced,underperforming, product,which by the way is an insult to the real vacuum guy's and girls and [[THE SERVICE TECHS] have thrown their hands in the air and just tell the customer that they got ripped off,and yes you got suckered by the hype.

Your replys are welcome.

MOLE

mole wrote:
1)  Compared to who? 

2)  This is probably the most under hyped Dyson

3)  What does this mean?  Is that why Dyson sold more vacuums in the U.S. in 2007 then ever before?

4)  Of course some machines do need repair and service, but not to the degree that you assume

Airblade wrote:

Please share the detail to support this grandiose statement, if you would. 

Carmine D.

mole wrote:

Hello Mole:

Most economists now agree that the US is in a recession and it was tipped off by the 2007 Holiday sales season.  Although no bells and whistles go off to signal its coming.  These same economic gurus say the recession will last into 2008.  And probably be worse.  Why?  For most of 2007 consumers were still spending.  That stopped in December and will probably stay that way for awhile.

One of the recession signs is that retailers' sales hit the skids during the 2007 Holiday season.  All retailers and all sectors.  Not just a few.  Retailers started culling the dyson product line in 2007 for several reasons including difficulty selling at the high prices.  The culling will last until and unless economic data reverses itself.  I don't see that happening in the near term.

Dyson's 2002 strategy to go after the big box stores' venues rather than the independents will hurt dyson sales now during times of recession.  Why?  The big box stores' vacuum shoppers will go with the low end disposables to the middle price ranges for vacuums [the typical retailers' vacuum venues].  The high end vacuum shoppers will go to the independents who may/may not carry and certainly don't push the dyson brand.  Why?  They carry and sell brands, makes and models solely made and marketed for independents. 

I always said dyson's marketing strategy for vacuums was not conducive for the long haul.  I still say it.  Now in bad economic times the rubber hits the road.  And the honeymoon period is over.  Time will tell.

Carmine D.

Carmine, my old friend..........
It's your favorite Dyson insider from your old home here.  How is Vegas treating you? 

Anyway, I can't provide you the numbers that you ask for ( I like my job too much!), otherwise I would.  I am closer to Airblade these days, but I am still privy to floorcare info.  I can assure you that 2007 was quite good for Dyson.

As far as Airblade placement goes, it is in various places around the country. 

Feel free to PM me and I'll try to get more specific with you.

Airblade wrote:

Well well, hello my old friend.  Good to hear from you.  I was wondering what became of you and your dyson career.  I will take you up on your offer.  Although I must say, dyson never silenced the sales success news in the past on Forums. 

Vegas is wonderful and treating me very very well.  I wish I came sooner!  I absolutely love it.  Don't miss the east a bit.

Carmine D.

mole wrote:
Hi Mole,

Perhaps you're referring to the DC22 if it is ever released here? 

As Airblade said, and I've noticed this as well, the DC21 under-hyped and under-advertised.  I can't remember ever seeing a commercial for it in the 10 or so months it's been out (7 for big-box stores).  Sure, like any Dyson model it's not the cheapest vacuum around, but it is hardly the most expensive ($499 retail), even compared to some Dyson uprights (such as the DC17 and DC15 Animal models for $549, and of course the DC15).  In fact I believe the DC11 Telescope, when it was out sold for this same amount.  The difference of course was that the DC11 was not nearly as good as the 21 and also lacked an electric power nozzle (or Motorhead, hence my name).  The Motorhead on the DC21 is one of the best power nozzles I've seen by far, the 2-piece brushroll is gear-driven and can be easily removed from the nozzle.

Since you mentioned in another thread that you own a vacuum store, has anyone tried to bring a broken Dyson in, and if so, which model(s)?

Hi Venson,

I saw that DC21 HSN video on YouTube as well; they've done similar "bin capacity" tests for the DC07, 14, 15 etc. (and even cyclonic models from other brands like the Hoover Fusion/Mach 3).  Not really a good test for how the machine will hold up over time, and how well it does under extended use.  I have to wonder how long that machine had been there, how long it had been used for cleanup at the Best Buy, and of course other factors like the material it was picking up (presumably a large amount of fine dust judging by your description).  Did you pop open the pre-motor filter compartment and see how dirty the filter was by any chance?  How was the suction?

I can sort of understand the overall "dustiness" because it's not a Level 3 machine, and wasn't designed for commercial use, although since you didn't mention any damage or broken pieces I'd say it has held up quite well in that enviroment.  I would also bet the performance has not changed, either, and the suction has not dropped off.  Then again, I could be wrong ;-)

Hi Airblade,

Nice to see a Dyson insider here, I definitely look forward to your future posts.  I do have a question for you:  Isn't the wholesale/dealer-invoice price of the DC21 around $411?  At least that's what I was told by a dealer when I bought mine.  If it is, doesn't seem to be a huge markup there so I would venture to say that dealers who push Dysons aren't doing so to make a tremendous profit (unlike Miele).

-MH
 

Motorhead wrote:
Hey there MH,
Glad to be here!!  There will be certain info that I cannot pass onto everyone else, but I can say that dealers make more than $89 when they sell a DC21.  Hope that helps!

"Nice to see a Dyson insider here, I definitely look forward to your future posts. I do have a question for you: Isn't the wholesale/dealer-invoice price of the DC21 around $411? At least that's what I was told by a dealer when I bought mine. If it is, doesn't seem to be a huge markup there so I would venture to say that dealers who push Dysons aren't doing so to make a tremendous profit (unlike Miele)."

Most products sold by major retail chains have lower profit margins...Dyson/Electrolux(Eureka)/Dirt Devil/Hoover etc. Those companies sell volume and provide advertising which retailers benefit from (say what you what about Dyson, there graphics and advertising are superb. Companies like Miele/Sebo and Simplicity don't advertise as much or at all leaving it to the retailer to do ads or not. Just 2 ways of doing business. The second way helps the mom and pop store stay in business and offers the company superior customer service and a local repair facility. Two features so infuriating to Dyson buyers. I could be wrong but I get the feeling you think a retailer pushes Miele is because of profit margin. I can assure you we feel the Miele is a VERY GOOD machine and have the utmost confidence when selling to a customer you will face personally. My reputation is more important than profit margin. Of course when you get both it's a win-win situation..LOL

Motorhead wrote:

Airblade wrote:

Is dyson including the sale of the DC16 hand helds in its figures?  

In the USA vacuum industry, hand helds are not included in the annual total sale of vacuums because handcleaners are not an upright and/or canister-tank vacuum.

Carmine D. 

CarmineD wrote:

Maybe their counting the repacks,sold on ebay.........Can anyone say REGINA..........

MOLE

Hi M.H. in your professional opinion ,whats the better machiine,for the 499.00.

MIele plus

bosch formula

emer donatello

dyson dc21.

MOLE

Just wrote:

Hello Airblade:

As a dyson insider what are your thoughts on Just's post and the facts and circumstances for this dyson?

I'll understand if you can't speak about it on a public Forum. 

Carmine D.

Hiya Motorhead,

The DC21 at Best Buy has been in the store at least a few months and to the eye is in relatively fine physical shape.  No visible parts were broken though I wondered at signs of abrasion on the plastic plate on the bottom of the power nozzle. 

Dyson does not seem make simple tasks easy for the novice.  It took 20 or 30 seconds to figure out but I got the dust bin open but decided not to pursue figuring out how to get at the first filter since there was no way to neatly manage its inspection in a public place.  However, there was definitely a very obvious accumulation of dust in the area above where air leaves the container. Also, I could not turn the cleaner on because our Best Buy does not provide easily accessible outlets for testing vacuums.  (After several years they have yet to provide a solution to the problem.) All display items in the vacuum aisle are kept off the floor and on shelves and must be taken down and carried an aisle or two away to plug them in.  (I honestly don't know how this store sells anything.)

In any event, suction was not the issue for me that moment.  I simply wanted to see, per the HSN pitch, whether dust was as well contained as claimed.  As for what is cleaned, My Best Buy has vinyl tiles in aisles plus large expanses of the usual very low pile industrial carpeting.  There's little fluff to be picked up but fine, powdery dust just about the same in type as I encounter at my office.

Best,

Venson

  <  Web banner from the VDTA webpage

CarmineD wrote:

With the VDTA scheduled for Las Vegas next month and getting Forum coverage already, I revisit my earlier question above for all you to consider.  With the DC21 less than 8 months old and with a retail price of $499 [usually sells for $469] another new dyson cann so soon for big box store venues will compete with the existing DC21 in form, function and price.  Good/bad for dyson and its customers?  Especially in light of the dismal 2007 Holiday season sales and the "recession" looming not only in the USA but around the world.  Don't take my word for it.  Read for yourself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080116/ap_on_bi_ge/bank_earns

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=5976261&ch=4226720&src=news

Therefore my thought that a full size but lighter and easier to use upright vacuum [vice the DC17] is more practical from a business perspective from dyson than yet another new canister. 

Carmine D.

Still no rubber bumpers on the cleaning head,the 17 uses a geared toothed belt,but since the innovator still does not use a real circuit breaker,it's just the same old JUNK,but the saving grace is that's it's high priced JUNK...[Does Sir Jimmy still grow his own organic tomatoes]

MOLE

CarmineD wrote:
To be honest, I'm not sure.  Lemons happen to every manufacturer, and if that is the case here, then the retailer should replace it.  For some reason Sam's doesn't want to.  The Dyson helpline is usually very proactive in these types of situations, so I'm surprised the machine hasn't been replaced yet, but i'm sure it will be.

mole wrote:
Possibly counting DC16's........If the handhelds are being counted there is still an increase over 2006 sales........

Definitely not counting sales on Ebay.  Those are RESALES, so counting them would mean counting them twice, as Dyson had already sold that unit at some point to someone.

Airblade wrote:

Why doesnt JUST get a full refund?. Why would the customer want another DYSON that does not work for their application.They [DYSON] can always send it back to the factory and have another factory reconed dyson to sell on EBAY,with almost no warranty......

The long green trainride is over.......

MOLE

Airblade wrote:

Just's post explained why.  Sam's claimed the user did not maintain the filter in accordance with the dyson instruction tome causing the motor to burn out.  Of course we all agree this is non-sense.  The real reason is that Sam's Club, like all the major big box retailers, lose alot of money every year on returns, refunds, and exchanges.  Starting in 2006 and continuing in 2007 all the big box retailers revised and clamped down on their merchandise refund and return policies.  This hurts the high priced vacuums like dyson more than the low-medium cost vacuums.

I would expect dyson WITHOUT HESITATION to take the hit on this dyson lemon not Sam's.  Dyson made it.  Although recent policies by the CPSC [Consumer Product Safety Commission) place more of the onus on the retailers to ensure the safety and reliability of the products they sell rather than the manufacturers.  Why?  Easier to go after a few dozen retailers in the USA than thousands of Chinese manufacturers overseas.  The CPSC  new policies do not bode well for dyson either which will, as in Just's post indicates, pit product makers [like dyson] against sellers [like Sam's].  

I see Kohl's Stores is pitting the HOOVER (TTA) WT 2 Cyclonic for $199 against the dyson DC07 for $399 in its recent ads.   HOOVER will win IMHO.

How do you think dyson vacuum sales will fare in 2008?

Carmine D.

Airblade wrote:

When you were so confident, I figured dyson included DC16 sales.

MOLE knows the history behind the Regina legacy which is legend in the vacuum cleaner industry.   It predates dyson in the USA so you youngins have no idea.  Here's a recap thanks to MOLE for jogging my old memory. 

Regina was going great guns in the mid 80's and was the heart throb of Main Street and Wall Street alike.  The stock soared from a few dollars a share to 3 digits in share price because Regina was double counting sales and understating costs of production.  The house of cards fell apart when an independent auditor questioned what happened with all the new Regina models he saw laying around out of their boxes.  Good question.  Sometimes even old auditors, like a blind ground hog, dig and scratch long enough to find an acorn. 

The answer was that the infamous CEO and his CFO yes man oversaw and approved the company's practice of selling all the repacks and refurbs as brand new in boxes.  They went to jail, Regina stock tanked, and Federal law required manufacturers to clearly mark cartons with repacks and refurbs as such.   That's why dyson has to clearly mark resales of refurbs and repacks as such.  Now, if I were an auditor for the CPSC, like the independent auditor for Regina, I'd buy a few of those new dysons off the internet and see if dyson does comply with Federal law.  But, alas I'm on paid vacation now in Vegas.  So..... it's someone else's kill not mine.

Carmine D.

Possible hints that the Dyson DC16 handheld will see a new model in time for the holiday season :-

http://www.metro.co.uk/metrolife/article.html?in_article_id=278763&in_page_id=265

...unless they're confusing the existing DC16 motorhead for a new model.

M00seUK wrote:

M00seUK:

That would be my suspicion too: The existing hand held DC16 with the motorized nozzle.  Looks like a new marketing spin tho:  Billed as a gift for the man with a boat that has rugs.

Carmine D.

I read that Dyson is now going to supply the DC16 Handheld with a car charger so you don't have to wait to recharge the machine, and you can use it while it is connected to the car charger, charging.  I'm not sure which model it will be included with (I think the basic DC16 model), but it mentioned the price to be £129.99 so could be the base DC16.  It is going to be sold as a separate item for though who already have a DC16 at £29.99 I believe!  Not seen any pictures of it yet!

Just found the link:

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/17125/18149/dyson-dc16-car-power-adapter.phtml

DC18

Hello DC18:

Interesting.  Thank you for the Web Site.  I'm wondering tho: The DC16 charge unit is for cars equipped with 12 volt batteries [according to the article].  Are new European cars still using 6 volt batteries?  Or now 12 volts like the USA?  And, if I'm correct and may not be, most US boats are powered by 2-12 volt [24 volts] batteries. 

Wondering if dyson plans to offer different DC16 charge units for these 3 battery venues?

Carmine D.

Hi Carmine D

Your welcome. Thought it might be of general interest to everyone.  I'm not sure what volt battery European Cars use, UK cars use 12 volt batteries!  It interesting this has come about, as it coinsides with a Boat Show they are appearing at in the UK!  I asked the Dyson Rep on the Dyson stand at the Motorshow in London as I've heard rumour there is to be a corded hand held from Dyson, but I was told no what would be the point, it wouldn't be as vesitile as the cordless one!  See their point but I would like to see one!  The charge unit contradicts the idea that the Dyson Rep said to me and Dyson original idea for this model.  Used for quick cleanups and spills.  I think people are wanting to use it for longer jobs and find it easier to use therefore wanting longer than the present 6 minute charge!  Hence the car charger where you can use it constantly without having to charge it up, effectively like it having a mains cord!

I do like mind for quick jobs around my home and car!  It comes in handy!

Be interesting to see if they plan to offer different charge units!  Probably not at first!  

DC18

DC18, M00seUK:

Good information.  Thank you for sharing. 

To my knowledge, no USA vacuum maker has ever marketed a car/boat hand held vacuum cleaner using power from the battery, save some specialty models but no name vacuum brands.  Usually these were not very good performers and didn't have very good sales.  Dyson is bucking the trend.  Interesting to see how well the DC16 with the car battery charger/power actually performs.  Do you have any knowledge of its operating worth using this venue?

Carmine D.

I too would like to see Dyson introduce a corded hand vac, or at least an optional adapter to run the machine full-time.  Would certainly justify the price a lot more, for most applications.  As much of a Dyson fan as I am, I can't see paying $160 for a glorified Dustbuster, i.e. a vacuum that only runs for a short time.  My thought when the DC16 was introduced was that it was going to be a "real" hand vac that could be used for a lot more than just quick pick-ups.  The DC16 Motorhead could be a very good contender for upholstery and car cleaning (perhaps even mattress cleaning), as well as small jobs, if either the run time was extended or it was corded. 

-MH

P.S.  Sorry I have not posted in a while, I'm sort of disappointed at the lack of activity here lately.  We need to get more interesting discourse going, both Dyson-related and non-Dyson-related

Motorhead wrote:

Hi MH,

I have always wondered how many of the DC16 sold.  I see them on store shelves but can't believe that they selling well as I don't see them as a practical expense -- especially due to the short operation time. 

Does anybody know how long you might run one off your car battery without it being a serious drain on juice?  Better yet, how much is involved in making a vesion that has a built-in voltage adjustment like some electric razors and laptop computers?  A built-in adapter that could handle voltage input between 12v and 220v would make the asking price a little more easy to take.

Best,

Venson

Dyson missed the boat, pardon the pun, with the DC16's operation and marketing.

Recently, I did some work at my daughter's house and made a mess before and after the job was complete.  I took along my 1970 HOOVER Swingette to do the cleaning up before and after.  Tho I would have preferred a hand held non-corded like the DC16 for the tasks.  Not with a 6 minute charge for $150 [straight suction] and $200 [revolving brush]. 

I think dyson missed the market for its hand held: Contractors and home improvement repair persons.  But before the DC16 can survive in this venue, it needs a longer run time.

Carmine D.

Venson wrote:
Hi Venson,

I've wondered the same thing, I would think not many.  I wonder if the main buyers of the DC16 are those who want a hand vac for quick pick-ups and want the novelty of owning something with the Dyson name on it, but do not want to shell out $400+ for one of their full-sized cleaners.  That might be one of the reasons for the Issey Miyake special edition version. 

When I'm using the car vac, I don't run it for long periods of time as it really does use power, about 10 minutes at the very most for me which is really all it takes for a good quick cleaning.  It could also be used with the engine running but that would be a major waste. 

I like the idea of the voltage adjustment.  120/240 doesn't involve much as Norelco was doing it with their electric razors in the 1980's.  Not sure what it would take to produce a variable 12-240 switch, can't say I've ever seen one of those before but with this technology there's no reason why it couldn't be done. 

At any rate, I would definitely like to see some improvement to the DC16 in the future.  *Definitely* a corded version, or longer run time on a cordless, however that is accomplished.

-MH

CarmineD wrote:
Hi Carmine,

I agree with you there, the DC16 would have been a good effective handheld for contractors who need something to pick up drywall dust and other debris in small spaces.  With the cyclones fine dust wouldn't clog the filters like the other contractor-grade cordless handhelds out there (Ryobi, B&D, etc.).  Like you said, a longer run time would definitely be in order.  Possibly even an increase in voltage to provide more power.

But it would also need something else.  Part of the problem I've noticed on the current DC16 is that the dirt container is very small (almost miniscule); there is definitely the potential for some debris to become lodged in the inlet or between the bin and shroud.  Also, while the attachment port is of a decent size, the opening of the flat nozzle is too small for jobsite debris.  Increasing the overall size by 50% would work, in other words beef it up a bit.  It could very well become the second most useful tool next to the cordless drill.  Except for wet pickup, why would anyone need to lug around the big Shop-Vac when they could just reach for the handheld and empty it out when finished? 

-MH

CarmineD wrote:

I recently received an email contradicting my above statement.  ORECK sells an Auto Vac with a 15 foot cord that plugs into the accessory power outlet of the car.  I'm not sure who makes the vacuum for ORECK.  It's rated number 1 by a leading auto journal and is awarded 5 Stars.  It doubles as a flashlight.

http://www.oreck.com/small-home-appliances/xlauto_vac.cfm

I'm also told that it routinely sells for $20 with shipping of $5.45 from ORECK and carries a ONE YR. warranty.

Carmine D.

Carmine,

I believe the Oreck auto vac is Douglas (ReadiVac) made, as is the Ironman canister.  Douglas also made the previous incarnation of the Oreck rechargeable and auto hand vac, residential wet/dry vac (no longer produced as I can't find anything on it anymore, the commercial models are of course still around), stick vac (Oreck has since switched to a different type of stick vac different from the Douglas and I can't tell who makes it), and revolving-brush hand vac. 

Douglas also private-labeled some things for Kirby at one point, namely their revolving-brush hand vac (labeled the "Vacuette" just like the early upright) and auto vac.

-MH

MH:

I had heard the ORECK-Douglas connection before and you may well be right.

On a related note, it now appears in the wake and aftermath of Hurricane Gustav [just 3 years after Katrina], that ORECK's decision to move out of New Orleans, Louisiana in favor of Cookeville, Tennessee was the right and bright move.

Carmine D.

Motorhead wrote:
I do not know if you can say that Douglas "private-labeled" for Kirby when Douglas and Kirby are owned by the same company S&F(owned by Berkshire Hatheway).  Douglas models were also under the Kirby banner like the corded Vacuette, the rechargeable Split Second handvac and the Split Second II, which was a handvac that plugged into your automobile cig lighter.

Any word on the DC27?

iMacDaddy wrote:

I don't know if there is a connection and/or just a coincidence. 

Local SAM's Club stores are pricing the dyson DC17 Total Clean for $399.  That's a savings/discount of $150 off the regular price for the DC17 of $549.  It beats the routine monthly 20 percent off from Bed Bath & Beyond on the $549 retail of the DC17 which comes to $109 for a price of $440.

The DC17 is not listed on the SAM's Club Web Site for sale.  The only other dyson for sale on the Web Site is the DC18 Slim but the Site says none are available and/or in stock and/or back order.

Carmine D.

I take it the DC27 like the DC17 will be for the USA market and no where else?

Anybody any clues or ideas as to what the DC26, DC28 may be?  Wonder of the 'ball' feature will appear on any of them!?

DC18

BEST BUY stores is giving away a DC16 Handheld, straight suction nozzle, with the purchase of a DC25 ball for $549.  No hype and hawk slogans for these models.  Hhhmmm?

Carmine D.