Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Original Message Feb 18, 2005 2:23 pm
What is the purpose of sleeving the bore of a new engine with cast iron? The ohv Snow King Tecumsehs still have the sleeve while according to my dealer the Briggs Snow Intek does not.
I am aware of sleeving being used to keep in service engines that have been bored to the point that the cylinder walls are too thin. Again,why on a new engine?
Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #21 Feb 19, 2005 7:59 pm
jubol wrote:
Rob,
Read above, where I refered Mark to the Engine Warehouse.
At their site, Intek engines spec sheets refer to a cast iron liner, at least 7.5 HP and up.
Fred
I saw that Fred. My confusion comes from Briggs changing it's website, and the information that I got from Briggs. I think Marc should get the model numbers and get some good information from that really knows. It's a lot of money, and it doesn't hurt to be sure.
I saw these that you had posted. There are other 7.5 Briggs on that site with an "essd" at the end that don't say cast iron liner. SEW 7.5 Briggs
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #22 Feb 20, 2005 4:33 am
Rob,
Some 7.5's do and some 7.5's don't, but all the 8 and above that I checked did have cast iron liners.
Like Richie thinks, OPE Engine makers are blowing smoke!!!
I've been checking into Tec's OHV engine spec's and found the following.
The Tec 8,9, 10 and 11HP OHV engines have all the same specs.
Same displacement, weight, bore and stroke!! So how are they different? Don't know for sure!
So I have come to the conclusion that Tec and Briggs are controlling HP 3 ways on each engine.
1. Different Carb's ( different jets) .
2. Different cam shafts.
3.The length of time the intake and exhuast valves are open, and height of valves when open.
Those 3 things would change the amount of fuel in the cylinder, reduce engine breathing ability and maybe compression slightly, thus changing amount of HP produced.
IMHO Fred
This message was modified Feb 20, 2005 by jubol
Husqvarna STE927(11.5HP)snowblower, MTD Pro Series 18/42 Lawnmower, MTD 6.5 HP Self Prop Lawn Mower, Weedeater 1500 Blower, Web Gensis 2000
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #23 Feb 20, 2005 7:44 am
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster. *The steel sleeve will finish and wear better than aluminum but in a vertical piston application (like a snowblower) wear should be trivial. I have seen horizaontal pistion cylinders (like some lawn tractors and RERs) show pronounced bottom side wear perhaps due to gravity.* With reasonable lube maintenance an aluminum cylinder will go the distatnce on a snowblower. *Aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat hence the "cool bore" trade name. * It's all about pricepoint and features. If the OEM wants the cast iron cylinder as a selling point they spec the engine that way. If they want the lowes unit cost they go all aluminum. I would not say it's all hype since the cast iron bore is a better engine, just not in a significant way for snowblower applications. At some point due to volume or design the manufacture may only offer one or the other on certain sizes. * The B&S trype number details the specific feature set of an engine while the model describes the major features. The type leads to the governor spring/setting spec and as beat to death in another thread can put the engine in a different HP rate depending where the RPM setting falls on the torque curve and how the calculate out. That being said 2 virtually identical engines can be selling with different HP ratings. Also like many specifications the advertised number will be something they can consistently meet/exceed. How much tolerance they hold in reseve can be adjusted for a price, or to win a contract.
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #24 Feb 20, 2005 9:24 am
Gilsons wrote:
A cast iron cylinder liner is a nice feature on a snow blower, not a deal buster.
Hi Pete,
I do know enough about cast iron cylinder sleeves Vs. aluminum to say that the answer can get complicated or even become a heated argument. Keeping it simple, and using snowblowers as an example, what actually are the benefits of both? When I look at cast iron, it's usually designed for I/C applications. This enables rebuilding where aluminum blocks may not be worth the expense or not recommended.
All things being equal, and an engine is never run low on oil, how many snowblower engines actually wear out and require rebuilding if they are not iron sleeve equipped? As for longevity, is it really worth the expense, if any? If the cast iron sleeve came on a snowblower that had certain features that were very important to me, I wouldn't have a problem getting it, obviosly I wouldn't have a choice anyway. I'm not sure I myself would put that feature as a must have simply as a homeowner.
Also, due to the severe weather conditions a snowblower is used, do these cast iron cylinder sleeves rust at all sitting for most of the year as opposed to aluminum. Is it necessary to fog the cylinder at the end of the season? As for aluminum, it's a porous metal and because of that, it does tarnish therefore it can corrode to some degree too. Aside from simply the rebuild factor, which I believe would rarely be the case for a homeowner, I'm not seeing "must have" benefits getting the iron.
I'd have to say that if either of these type of engines blew after say, 10-12 years, It wouldn't be unreasonable for the homeowner to just say, "well, time for a new blower" Sorry for all the questions.
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #26 Feb 20, 2005 9:56 am
Out of all these walk behind lawn mower engines, the only two that have a cast iron bore are the LSQ Quantum I/C and the Intek Pro.
Now, I know I have personally seen some of these engines, that do not have cast iron sleeves in the bore, run 4-8 hours a week 4-5 months a year in high heat and dirty conditions for years and years with proper maintenance. Granted they won't last as long before starting to smoke as the lined engines will, but I see no reason to believe that a snow engine without a liner is a deal breaker for purchasing by any means. Actually, I would make a bet most will be replacing something else on the snowblower before they would need to have the cylinder bored on their snow engine.
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #28 Feb 20, 2005 12:28 pm
Richie wrote:
Hi Pete,
I do know enough about cast iron cylinder sleeves Vs. aluminum to say that the answer can get complicated or even become a heated argument. Keeping it simple, and using snowblowers as an example, what actually are the benefits of both? When I look at cast iron, it's usually designed for I/C applications. This enables rebuilding where aluminum blocks may not be worth the expense or not recommended.
All things being equal, and an engine is never run low on oil, how many snowblower engines actually wear out and require rebuilding if they are not iron sleeve equipped? As for longevity, is it really worth the expense, if any? If the cast iron sleeve came on a snowblower that had certain features that were very important to me, I wouldn't have a problem getting it, obviosly I wouldn't have a choice anyway. I'm not sure I myself would put that feature as a must have simply as a homeowner.
Also, due to the severe weather conditions a snowblower is used, do these cast iron cylinder sleeves rust at all sitting for most of the year as opposed to aluminum. Is it necessary to fog the cylinder at the end of the season? As for aluminum, it's a porous metal and because of that, it does tarnish therefore it can corrode to some degree too. Aside from simply the rebuild factor, which I believe would rarely be the case for a homeowner, I'm not seeing "must have" benefits getting the iron.
I'd have to say that if either of these type of engines blew after say, 10-12 years, It wouldn't be unreasonable for the homeowner to just say, "well, time for a new blower" Sorry for all the questions.
Richie... What's your point, I said the sleeve is a nice feature, not a deal buster. (for a snowblower)
What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question. I suspect that the typical lubricationalong with the chrome content would keep things oK for a spell. Many all iron blocks were built for many years.
As for your last point I feel sorry for the folks who bout a snowblower they are prepared to scrap at the 1 decade mark for the sake of an engine.
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #29 Feb 20, 2005 1:09 pm
Gilsons wrote: What you mention about the sleeve rusting in the off season is an intersting question.
I know you restore many classic snowblowers. Since you get them, perhaps not running condition, I was curious if you have ever come across corroded or rusted cylinders for either of the type of engines being discussed. My point was more curiosity, whether you could elaborate beyond "not a deal buster." Have you seen cylinders with this type of damage whether I/C or aluminum. Certainly was not trying to get under your skin.
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Re: Cast Iron Cylinder Sleeves Reply #30 Feb 21, 2005 5:42 pm
okay so i emailed briggs about this and got the answer...
it is type number sensitive..
12D300 cast iron liner
20D300 cast iron liner
20F400 cast iron liner
20A400 aluminum bore.
i also called technical services while i was on my lunch break,(the stuff i do for my friends).
tech i spoke with said all the intek engines are cast iron liners...i fired him on the spot.
he said only the mowers and tillers had the aluminum bores. still not impressed i advised him to get a bit better information.
he called me back after he called the "factory"and then told me it depends on the type numbers.
i mentioned that it is to hard for a consumer to get this info and that they have to change it in a hurry.
thats all for now.
later chris
craftsman 10/28 snowblower with tracks husky 372xpg chainsaw sachs dolmar bc212 bushsaw mondo trimmer monster tractor with trailer cheep wheelbarro and couple shovels and a partridge in a pear tree
Rob, 
