Abby’s Guide > Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) > Discussions > Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!

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jrtrebor

Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Original Message Feb 23, 2013 10:22 pm

Well I couldn't let it go.
It was just bugging me why the thing was so pitiful when it came to it's throwing distance.
So a few days ago I removed the steel that formed the center hub around the auger shaft.
Then made plates to support the center of the paddles and welded them in place.
Now it looks like most of the other Toro SS blowers out there.

Tried it out, and it really didn't make much if any difference in the distance.
And it had no effect on the engine performance.
So back into the garage we went.
Decided there was only one more thing to modify.
So I removed the stock pulley and replaced it with a stock pulley from another Toro SS.
Most of the pulley's are the same. But I think it may have come off a CCR 2000.
The stock SC pulley is 7 1/2" in diameter.
The replacement one is just a little less than 6" call it 5 7/8"
So a full 1 1/2" smaller.

Now the blower is set up just like most other Toros out there and the impeller
will be running at the same RPM as those blowers.

The really good news was that after I measured what new belt length I was going to need.
I found a great and helpful belt supplier on line.
vbeltsupply.com
I gave them the measurements told them what I needed and they said no problem.
$21.00 ($10 for the belt $11 shipping) and four hours later it was on it's way.
I should get it Monday afternoon. So by Monday night I should know something.
It will be interesting to see how the added auger RPM directly effects the throwing distance.
And how the engine responds. Removing the center hub steel plates probably dropped off
about 6 or seven pounds. We'll see!

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MN_Runner

Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Joined: Dec 5, 2010
Points: 622

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #12 Feb 25, 2013 8:43 pm

jrtrebor wrote:

Well received the new belt this afternoon.
Put it on, and gave the blower a try.
It's better, but not enough to say "oh boy look at that".
Not enough to get out my video camera.

After trying out the SC I sat it side by side with my 210R.
So.... here are my thoughts up to this point.
The interior of the blower housings are the same design and shape.
The chute angles are the same. The chute holes are the same diameter.
The width of the blower mouth on the 210 is 21"
The width of the blower mouth on the SC is right at 23 1/4"
So the SC cuts a path that is only about, let say 2 1/4" wider than the 210.
But lets say 2 1/2 or 3" wider.
The 210 has the 141cc R-tek which is let say putting out 5.5 hp.
The SC has the 141cc R-Tek with the ported piston and cyl walls.
Supposedly putting out 7hp.
I changed the center paddle supports so it is like most any other Toro SS including my 210.
The pulley is now the same size as most other Toro SS.

Granted the SC cuts a little wider path buts it's got 1 1/2 to 2 more HP than my 210.
With that added power it should have no problem with taking in a little more snow.
But the question is, why does it throw so poorly compared to my 210. And most other
Toro SS in the 5hp range? The CCR 2000 with a 4.5hp throws better.
Same auger design same pulley size.

There is only one thing left that I can think of.
Maybe it's that third paddle. Maybe that third paddle is bringing in snow to often.
Maybe it's in some way disrupting the flow of snow in the housing, who knows.
I honestly don't know what else it could be. The third auger is the only design element that is different between the SC and the 210.
It's the only thing that is different than any other Toro. And most any other SS I've ever seen.
I would love to know what the engineers thoughts were behind thinking there was a need for a third paddle.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it just make no sense to me.
That a 7hp taking a 2 1/2" wider cut. Can't throw snow at least as well as a 5hp
cutting a slightly smaller cut.
Especially when blowing only 2 or 3 inches of snow.
What do you think, pull the third paddle?

Is it possible to measure the wind speed coming out of the chute? 2 1/2" (volume is much bigger - you have to consider WxLXH) maybe enough to affect the aerodynamcs and not creating enough lift for the snow to shoot out. I doubt Toro designer looked into aerodyanmics. Can you change the opening size just above the auger?

This message was modified Feb 25, 2013 by MN_Runner

Bill_H

Location: Maine
Joined: Jan 12, 2008
Points: 354

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #13 Feb 25, 2013 9:17 pm

Some things to consider:

How much snow can it throw compared to the other one? A manufacturer/designer can trade off distance for volume. Did it bog down less going into deep heavy snow than the other one? Are the torque curves the same for both engines? Are the tip speeds the same?

Who the hell let all the morning people run things?

borat

Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #14 Feb 25, 2013 10:09 pm

I have to agree that it's likely the three paddle system being designed to move volume vs. velocity/distance. It makes me think of smaller bites being taken by each of the three paddles not having the benefit of rotational speed to achieve the same kind of kinetic energy as that's achieved by a two paddle system. The trade off would be that the three paddle system would likely be able to sustain a higher volume rate, (particularly with heavier snow) than a two paddle system would. That's my assumption.

If you pull a paddle, won't that throw the balance off? You'll have to reconfigure the paddle placement if you go with just two.

I'd be willing to venture that you'll get the distance with a two paddle arrangement.

This message was modified Feb 26, 2013 by borat

aa335

Joined: Nov 29, 2008
Points: 2434

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #15 Feb 25, 2013 11:28 pm

The 3 paddle system is like a having more fine tooth on a hack saw. It takes smaller bites off hard snow more effectively. The trade off is distance.

By removing the center hub pieces, I think you may be defeating the original design intent, which is to limit the snow ingested by the paddles. The hub and the paddles creates small compartments to collect snow, no more than that. The amount of snow it takes in, the same amount gets propelled upward. Also, the center hub pieces acts like a flywheel, to keep the rpm consistent and not bump up and down under load.

jrtrebor

Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #16 Feb 25, 2013 11:50 pm

Bill_H wrote:

They may have been going for more volume than distance on this model.
Hence the three paddles. But from my experience they may, for what ever design and or manufacturing reasons.
Missed the mark just a little. This blower really has some rather different performance characteristics than most 2 cycle SS.
It is a very gusty machine. You can push it into just about any type or depth of snow.
And it will bog down. But it digs it's heels in at a certain RPM and almost refuses to go any lower.
It's seems to have a lot of torque. Which could come from the three auger design.
As Borat has said it takes smaller bites. Unfortunatley in those situations it's only throwing the snow
maybe 5 to 7'. Which can sometimes be enough distance. But more often than not it's a little short.
And you may have to end up re-blowing. Today I didn't really have good snow to test it in.
But at certain times it would throw maybe 15', which would be fine.
If it would throw that distance consistently.
Were supposed to get maybe 6" or more of new snow tomorrow afternoon and evening.
Don't know what the torque curves for the two engines look like.
Haven't measured the diameter of the SC and the 210 paddles so don't know if the tip speeds are the same.
But the auger RPM should now be the same.
The reason that I said that they may have "missed the mark a little"
Is because you can always slow down your forward speed to lessen the volume of snow your putting into the blower.
But if the throwing distance is poor because of the third paddle. That problem isn't something a person can work around.
By adjusting there forward speed. Blowing a large volume of snow a short distance isn't real helpful if you have to re-blow it.
It works really well for doing sidewalks. As it will really move along as fast as you want to go. Being able to adjust how fast you
want to move forward by tilting the unit further forward is something I really like.

jrtrebor

Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #17 Feb 25, 2013 11:55 pm

borat wrote:

If you pull a paddle, won't that throw the balance off? You'll have to reconfigure the paddle placement if you go with just two.

I'd be willing to venture that you'll get the distance with a two paddle arrangement.

Your right, If I were to pull a paddle I would have to make sure that I get the two paddles
located correctly on the shaft.
If not, the thing would probably vibrate itself down the street.

jrtrebor

Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #18 Feb 26, 2013 12:24 am

aa335 wrote:

That is the problem. The distance trade off is too much.
I believe most people would rather have a SS blower that will only take up to 12" of snow.
And throw it 15 - 20'. Than one that will take up to 18" of snow but only throw it 6 - 8'
When blowing small depths of snow, your lucky if it throws it 5'. Unless you run with it.
For me having a 2 stage. I would be more than willing to sacrifice some volume for some distance.
I actually really like this blower and some of it's unique features. But I just wish it would perform
like a lot of the other Toro 5hp models. It's kind of a 2 stage want-a-be. But falls short there as well.
Here is a video I found of a SC blowing some snow.

hirschallan

If it aint broke don't fix it !!

Location: Northern Hills of NY
Joined: Aug 25, 2005
Points: 327

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #19 Feb 26, 2013 2:06 am

I think the main difference is very simple. The SC is like a moving shovel.The paddles just get the snow into the machine without any direction only relying on the funnel action in the back to get it out. That's where the problem is, it loses velocity as it gets rearranged at the funnel stage where the the snow so to speak crashes trying to exit. On the other hand, the CRAFTSMAN has a real auger set up where the snow moves from the right and from the left and meet in the center. The two snow streams merge as one focused stream and are not disturbed by a funnel action in the rear so when the snow hits the small flat area it merely continues the stream effect and gets out with the velocity of the paddle. When conditions are right it will really fly.

borat

Joined: Nov 10, 2007
Points: 2692

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #20 Feb 26, 2013 9:00 am

Hirschallan:

The only problem with that theory is that the smaller Toro SS machines pump snow very effectively and toss it quite a distance as well. The only way my Craftsman/Murray machines surpass the Toro 221 is by considerable increase in rpm. Jacked up, they're hard to beat. I doubt that there's a stock SS machine built that can match an "improved" Craftsman/Murray.

This message was modified Feb 26, 2013 by borat

jrtrebor

Location: Michigan - 3 hours north of Chicago on the lake
Joined: Feb 10, 2010
Points: 539

Re: Snow Commander... Throwing distance answers coming soon, I hope!
Reply #21 Feb 26, 2013 11:06 am

It think in designing the SC Toro tried, or was trying to design a machine.
That would have the snow moving, or snow processing capacity of a 2 stage.
Unfortunately what they seem to have wound up with. Is simply a large SS machine
with a poor throwing distance.

My thought is this. The 210R that I have has no problem handling 10 maybe 12"
of average weight snow. It will throw it twice as far as the SC.
And although SS machines can be used for greater depths. That really is not what they are designed for.
If your working with those kinds of depths on a regular basis. Your really needing a 2 stage anyway.

Taking into consideration that my 210R or the 421
have only a 2 1/4" smaller bucket opening. It seems to me that the additional
2Hp of SC engine would have had enough power to handle the increased snow
from a wider bucket. So why not just forget about building a SS blower that can maybe
handle 18" of snow volume. Why add a third paddle to make that possible. When the trade off seems to be
a sizeable drop in throwing distance. What they ended up with, is a blower that won't complete with a
2 stage. And a blower that won't throw as well as some of their other Single Stages.
When it's being used in snow depths of 2 - 8"
I'm not saying that a long throwing distance is all that matters. Because it's not.
But having an average throwing distance of at least 10 - 12' is an important performance factor.
Simply having a 24" SS blower with adequate power and a decent throwing distance.
Would still have given Toro a blower that no one else was offering.
Who cares if The SC will handle 18" of snow more easily than another SS blower.
If it won't throw it clear off your driveway. Then what advantage does it really have
over a 210R, 421QR.
The Toro Power Curve designed augers with two paddles work extremely well.
The newer model SS blowers those including the 4 cycle engine. Have no problem
handling 8 - 12" of the right kind of snow. I think Toro tried to fix or change something that
was working fine the way it was. Meaning they added a third paddle.

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