Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

(thread updated 12/15/13, same problem!)


I was negligent last year and never put my new 11.5HP Platinum Ariens into storage.  It sat with 1/2 tank of fuel from the dealer, was never used during that remarkable winter and now.... when I tried starting it not a thing happened.  The motor turned over without a sputter.

Having learned a few things from reading this board (thank you) I found the carb and cleaned out the not surprisingly clogged jet with a single strand of wire from lamp cord.  The bottom of the bowl was clean, I reused the bowl gaskets tightening things enough that it didn't leak.  I didn't want to overdo it.  It started immediatly

I then added 1/2 tank of fresh gas to the 1/2 tank of old gas that came with it, some Stabil, and inflated the tires to 18PSI.

Some questions:
1)  Should I check on or clean anything else? 

2)  Is there a service manual for the engine?  Just looking at it, I didn't know which cover to remove to find the carb and still don't know which cover the spark plug is hiding under.  I see generic instructions for operating the engine, but not for service.

3)  The inside of the bowl was uniform all around, and there's a tail of sorts molded into the exterior underside.  Does it matter which direction it's installed?  I know with the older carbs it does, but it didn't seem to matter with this one.

Of interest, I had an older 9526DLE stored next to it, under similar circumstances, and it started instantly. 

Nothing else engine-wise needs to be attended to if it starts and runs well.  Might want to check/clean the spark plug.

How much time is on the oil in the engine? 

Is it a Briggs and Stratton engine?  If so, you can go to the B&S web site and get all the info you need. 

Have you greased the augers?  Should be a couple zerk fitting on the auger tubes for that purpose.  Eighteen psi in the tires is too much.  Reduce it to 8 to 10 psi.  You'll get better traction. 

I'd pull the pan off the bottom and oil the chains and sprockets.  Be careful not to get oil on the friction disk/wheel.  Check/lube cables and any other moving parts that look like they should be lubed. 

Pull the wheels and lube the axles. 

Probably would have been better to drain out all the old gas and start fresh.  Is there any sediment visible in the tank?  If it starts easily and runs well, I'd just leave it for now.  But don't forget to store it properly at the end of winter.

Dang Borat gets faster every day!

It's a new, well now it's a year old, snowblower that's never seen snow.  

I guess I can postpone the above recommendations for awhile and just enjoy it if it ever snows around here again.

Can a fuel filter be added?

Thanks.

newtonian wrote:

Yes, easily. Just pick up an inline filter at an auto parts store. Know the size of your line - probably 1/4". They usually come with clamps but pick up 2 if it doesn't. Find a suitable spot, cut the line and install it.

Note that a filter won't help with bad gas or water, just dirt.

Update: just remembered some filters are directional - there will be an arrow that should point away from the tank and towards the carb.

I personally would not mix good gas in with  bad gas.  I would drain all of the gas out of the tank and fill it with new gas and stabil.

i have a 1986 ariens 8 hp tecumseh that still starts first pull. the bowl has been off several times to clean the high speed jet ,retorqued some loose head bolts two seasons ago,and keep fresh gas with fuel conditioner  in it.the one most important thing iv'e learned with all my seasonal use gas powered engines is at the end of the season shut the fuel off and run the engine till it runs out of fuel.

mkd55 wrote:
Agree entirely with the above.  That's what I do.

I have no issues mixing old gas with new gas if the old fuel isn't too degraded.  However, if I do, I run the machine to burn the blend off right away then add more fresh fuel.

Alway drain the tank and run the carb dry for storage purposes. 

newtonian wrote:

I've got the same model that you have.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it is an 1150 series B&S polar force motor which means 11.5 ft/lbs of torque, NOT 11.5 hp.  Actual hp rating for this motor is in the 8.5 range, give or take.  This is still very good compared to many new 24" 2 stage machines that are using 179 & 208cc engines (around 5.5hp & 6.5hp).   At least the 250cc B&S Polar Force has ball bearings on the crankshaft main journals as opposed to sleeve bearings.  The latest Polar Force also has a cast iron cylinder sleeve...not sure if this is new or if it has always been there.  Perhaps Snowmann can verify when these extra features came into play on Polar Force motors. 

I found some gas in my area that does not have ethanol. That solves a lot of problems. I believe the web site is pure-gas.org. I buy 1 gallon at a time and put some stabil and seafoam in it immediately. Also shut the fuel off and let the carb run dry when done. A fuel filter wont stop gas from going bad and turning to varnish in the carb. Also that ethanol starts to separate and go bad immediately.

specialkkl wrote:
Go bad immediately?

Please.....  That's completely inaccurate and totally misleading.  

We've got ethanol in our gas and I've never had a problem with it,  even if I store it for six months or more over winter with no snake oil in it.   An air-tight container is all I use.   

Tell me how long it waits then. American petroleum institute recommends not storing longer than season to season. Shops love the ethanol for all the problems it causes.

specialkkl wrote:
As I've stated, I've never had a problem with ethanol fuel and you can rest assured that there are many millions of others who share the same experience as I. 

If the fuel was as bad as you say it is, the streets would be clogged with dead vehicles left, right and center as soon as they left the service station.  If you look around, you'll see that there are far more vehicles running just fine than there are dead ones on the side of the road whose demise was from ethanol poisoning.   When was the last time you saw a vehicle  disabled as a result of ethanol in the fuel? 

We've had ethanol in our fuel for many years just to deal with our long, cold winters.  We'd likely be in more difficulty without it rather than with it.  From my experience, any problems I've had with fuel, is water/debris in the gasoline bought directly from a service station.  Bad gas isn't necessarily caused by ethanol.  I'm not debating whether or not that ethanol in the fuel may have negative effects on various materials within some carbs and fuel systems.  However, I've never had a problem with that either. 

It appears to me that whenever anyone has a fuel related issue, the first thing they blame it on is ethanol in the fuel.  In reality, it's probably contaminated fuel. 

I don't know everything but I do know vehicles have the technology and are designed for ethanol fuel. Also most vehicles don't sit for a year with that fuel not being used. Ethanol causes problems with small engines that do no have the technology and sometimes were not designed to use ethanol. Dealer Friend makes a killing on ethanol related small engine problems . If any petroleum engineer out there can clarify with real expertise that would be great

specialkkl wrote:
Modern engine technology is to manage fuel delivery for combustion.  I've not yet heard of any vehicle technology that designed to preserve the chemical properites of ethanol/gasoline blends.

I own over 30 pieces of equipment with small engines.  From a 6 cylinder liquid cooled motorcycle, vintage two stroke twin Yamaha motorcyles, two riding mowers, numerous push mowers, trimmers, blower, outboard engines, chainsaws, three cylinder diesel generator, two liquid cooled ATVs, and many more assorted pieces of OPE.   I've owned, operated and worked on some of this equipment for over thirty years.  One would think that with the introduction of ethanol in our gasoline, one would notice a spike in carburetor/fuel related problems shortly after consumption and use of it.  That didn't happen.  Nothing has changed over the years.  Everything works just fine and some of the engines I own are getting close to 40 year old.

There's far too much mis-information concerning ethanol fuel blends.  It's nowhere near as bad as snake oil vendors would like us to believe.

Buy clean fuel, keep it in clean, air tight containers in a cool storage area and the fuel will last for months.  Don't keep fuel too long if it's going to be kept in a warm environment.  I think heat and prolonged exposure to air  are far more of a problem than ethanol.   Sloppy fuel management is probably more to blame for fuel degradation than the ethanol.

borat wrote:
I do the same practice as mentioned above. 

Just to add to this from my experience.  The last two years, I've stopped adding fuel preservatives.  I've used fuel that is well over six months old on my lawn mower, string trimmer, edger, leaf blower, and snowblower.  So far, I've had no problems with carburetor or engine running properly.  I do follow the practice of running the fuel out when I'm not expecting to use the equipment for some time.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to pay for any additives without scientific proof that it does what it advertised to do.  I'll take my chances and learn from my mistakes, but I'm not paying for mystery products that gives me warm and fuzzy that it somehow protects and prevents problems.  So no more Slick 50, Octane boosters or fuel molecule alignment magnets.  :)

aa335:

Good practice and excellent advice. 

It takes years of experience to learn that much of what alarmists and salespeople want to sell us is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.  No real scientific data to back up their claims but plenty of inuendo from customers citing mechanical miracles and endorsing their preferred snake oil. 

Many people are buying and using stuff to solve problems that don't exist.  The so called "preventative" dose.  I've been using product "X" for years and never had a  problem.  Millions have not been using product "X" and didn't have a problem either.  If people want to pull the wool over their own eyes, have at it.  However, I went down that route and came to the same conclusion as you.  Miracle juice vendors are selling a product that we absolutely do not need.  Kind of like the placebo effect.  I paid big bucks for this stuff and hey,......I "think" it works.  

borat wrote:
I agree that *often* many products fall under the "snake oil" label, and dont really do anything..
but it cant said that ALL products are ALWAYS snake oil..
(im not saying that you said that Borat! ;) just making a point)
some products do legitimattelly work as advertised!
(the tricky part is..how do you know which is which?)

Some people might lump Sea Foam in the "snake oil" catagory..but personally I believe it is an excellent product, and I use it.
why? not because "I read it on the internet" or "my Dad or Grandfather always used it, so I use it too"..
but because I have *personal* direct experience that it cleaned a carb and fixed a gas leak!

I had a leaky Tecumseh carb on a 1971 Ariens snowblower..
I tried all the "simple" stuff first, asked basic questions, and took a lot of abuse from forum trolls..
(not this forum, a different one)..I didnt even know what a "float" was when I started! ;)

Nothing was working to fix the leak..the *last* step would have been to take it apart and clean it out, and/or rebuild the carb with a rebuild kit.
but I was a newbie with ZERO experience with carbs, and the thought of taking it apart seemed pretty scary and complicated..
(to some, "rebuilding a carb" might be a walk in the park, but to me it sounded very daunting..I wasnt to go that route unless I had no other choice)

So I tried one last suggested possible solution..Sea Foam..
added it to the gas, fired it up a few times..and it WORKED!
the leak stopped!

Is it possible the leak would have stopped anyway if I *hadnt* used the Sea Foam?
maybe..but that seems pretty unlikely..it was leaking for weeks, a dirty sticking float is unlikely to magically "fix itself"..
I believe it is far more likely the Sea Foam actually has cleaning properties, and worked as advertised,
and actually cleaned and un-stuck the float, fixing the gas leak..
I cant prove it! ;) but it seems the only plausible conclusion to me..

So I dont believe *all* products of this nature are snake-oil..
I dont use Sea-Foam with every tank of gas, but usually with the first tank of the season..

Scot

I used to use SeaFoam.  Read all the "miracle cures" that it was supposed to have performed.  At the time, I was in the "preventative dose" mode.  When I did encounter an engine problem with a rough running Johnson outboard, I resorted to SeaFoam to cure the condition.  Results?  Take off carb and clean it.  SeaFoam did nothing.

There have been a few people here that have experimented with SeaFoam directly on carboned surfaces of pistons etc.  Results after weeks sitting in SeaFoam?  Virtually nothing.  Trouts2 also supplied the forum with a pretty good account of his experiments with SeaFoam.  Do a search and read what his results were. 

Not to diminish your account of your experience with the product but, being a trained diesel mechanic in my youth and having decades of experience working on small engines, and also from my experiences using various additives, I'm more convinced now than ever that all of the "miracle in a bottle" formulas are more promise than effective. 

Can't explain what happened with your carb for sure,  but if I were to guess, I'd bet that the float needle seat was contaminated from old fuel sitting in the carb.  Float needle couldn't seat properly allowing excess fuel to overfill the float bowl causing the leak.   When you started to use the machine and added fresh gas, over time, fresh fuel finally dissolved the varnish contamination allowing the float needle to finally seat properly.  

Drain your carbs on machines to be stored seasonally.  Buy clean uncontaminated fuel and keep it in clean, air-tight containers in a cool location.  You'll never need to buy fuel additives ever again.

borat wrote:
That would make sense..if the needle was sticky when I first bought the machine, but that wasnt the case..
I had already been using the machine for a month or so, used it several times, all was well..So it already had "fresh gas" in its system *before* the carb leak started..
then the leak started, then the leak stopped after using the seafoam..
So Im still convinced the sea foam did clear things up..

and I remember those "expirements" with sea foam..
many people thought they were completely invalid, because the product was being used in a way, during the experiments,
that it would never be used in real life..So those tests dont necessarily prove, or disprove, anything..

Borat, you could be right!
but its just as likely I am right..

Scot

Could have simply been a small particle between the float needle and the seat as well.  Engine operation, vibration, fuel flow may have dislodged it. 

You may be right, but, from my experience with fuel additives, I'd lean toward the alternative.  

Here's a suggestion.  Try not using fuel additives for a few years.  Be vigilant with your fuel handling practices (clean fuel, clean, sealed containers kept as full as possible, drained carburetors and fuel tanks).  See what happens.  You might be pleasantly surprised.

>>many people thought they were completely invalid, because the product was being used in a way, during the experiments, that it would never be used in real life..So those tests don't necesairly prove, or disprove, anything.

   That issue was addressed in the post with the factory, you missed it.   The experiment was gone over with the rep who claimed to be a funny car mechanic and in fact used Sea Foam in the same way as done in my experiments.   He gave the ok to what I had done and also said when he did them he had completely different results, that the product worked perfectly.   I did my experiments several times over a few years and never had any success.    

>>Dealer Friend makes a killing on ethanol related small engine problems

>>Shops love the ethanol for all the problems it causes.

    Many do.  It's a great line.   I've come across a bunch who fault ethanol.  I've have not had one problem I can blame on ethanol over the years with hundreds of pieces of equipment, mostly blowers, but including, wackers, chainsaws, mowers, and blowers so two strokes, four strokes, float carbs, diaphrams, pulser jets, fuel pumps, or anything else.  There are probably shoddy aftermarket parts or sub quality parts that can't deal with ethanol but I have not come across any. 

>>it cleaned a carb and fixed a gas leak

    Worked as claimed??  Even Sea Foam would not be that nutty to claim it fixed leaks.  This is a new high for the marvels of Sea Foam, "the mechanic in a can".    Few know that the Great Sage Alfred E Newman who coined "What me worry?" also coined, "Hay, it works for me".

Posted from the crypt.

Wow..  Same darned thing the next year (almost to the day!) and I thought I did it right.

Last fall I added Stabil to 1/2 tank of fuel and let the carb run dry and stall the engine before storing it.

This year, it started right up and thought I was set to go, but it stalled as soon as there was a load.  Repeatedly.  Then after idling a long time tried again and it went a bit further and died under load.  Impossible to start again.

Took off the plastic shroud covers, removed the spark plug and it was dry.  Removed the fuel line at the carb and it flowed well.  Removed bowl and found a little soggy rice like crud.  Cleaned the small orifices in the bowl nut I think that was the problem), ran some fuel through the bowl-less carb to check flow, put it back together and it started right up and went to work.

Thankful for boards like this that teach the average Joe what to do at times like that. 



I do want to give the carb a deeper cleaning, but haven't been able to find a model number to guide me along.  It's this exact engine:

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/us/en/engines/snow-blower-engines/1150-series-pf
I believe the part number for the engine is 08200811.

Any help identifying the carb appreciated, along with advice for anything I should be doing at this time.  I never did find the service manual for this engine, either.  Does one exist?



Should the bowl be removed and cleaned in the spring after it's run dry and before it goes into summer storage?

Its one great machine when it's running!

To add to the ethanol situation,  I belong to a motorcycle club that can be quite anal about things like oil and fuel.  In the monthly magazine they did an article on ethanol.  basicly it was proven that gas will collect moisture (water) which will fall to the bottom of the container.  Alcohol will go towards the water and fall out of suspension therefore collecting at the bottom of the tank.    The cylinders get washed of lubrication form the initial alcohol at the bottom of the tank.  That is why ethanol gas is hard on two strokes.  The artical went so far as showing how to remove the ethanol from the gas by adding a calibrated amount of water and leting it set then drain it off taking the alcohol with it.  I dont remember the moth or year of the magazine to go back for the details or referral.
This is where Sea Foam comes in handy.  I do use it as a stabilizer in both motorcycles and both snowblowers.

newtonian wrote:

You're probably right about the gunk coming from the fuel valve area.  It was run dry last spring, but the tank had some fuel.

I would like to clean the carb up a bit in case there's more crud in there I missed.  It's nothing more than an ounce of prevention.  The carb is either a 590907 or 798918 Ruixing.  Been looking online for guidance cleaning that specific model... does it exist?

Also, the fuel bowl has a tail on the outside that lined up with the fuel inlet.  The inside of the bowl is uniform all around.  On the Tecumseh bowl alignment is important, is it on the Ruixing?

Techron, SeaFoam or Stabil?

If the engine is running, don't sweat the deep carb clean.  As JRT said, if it runs well, be happy with that.  If and when you think you need to get into the carb in a bigger way, just run that thin copper wire into every tiny little orifice, hole, jet, gallery, passage that you can see.  The tiniest are the ones in the carb throat/venturi.  They're almost invisible, particularly if you have tired eyes like a lot of us. 

In the spring, drain all fuel from the fuel tank and run the carb dry.  You shouldn't have problems the next season.  Also, I agree with adding an inline fuel filter.

newtonian wrote:
Nice diagnostics skills!!!

About ethanol, just my two cents. Ethanol should not be a problem with newer carbs or lines, older equipment had "natural rubber" parts that could not hold up to ethanol, everything for years has been made with synthetic rubber that holds up to ethanol. Problems with ethanol is its ability to mix with water, real gasoline is fairly good dielectric, meaning it does not conduct electricty. Ethanol collects humidity and can contain water concentrates.. The connductive mixture can cause dissimilar metal corrosion (meaning anode/ cathode situation) causing metals to powder into surface salts if exposed for long times.