Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

So, there not much snow in the midatlantic (VA), but there was the occasional snow storm with more than 2 feet of snow. I'm contemplating a single stage Toro 621 vs a HS928TAS. Big difference in price, I know. I hate to buy the Toro then realize that it's not enough when the snow is piling on. The Honda is just overkill for my area though.

You need to describe your situation. How long is your driveway, do you have a lot of end of driveway (EOD) clearing, flat or hilly, etc...? You're comparing hand grenades to howitzers. The Honda is a serious snow clearing machine that works well for medium to heavy snowfalls and especially useful for the EOD stuff. The single stage Toro is great for small to medium snowfalls (more dry than wet) and will get the EOD driveway done but you'll have to work for it.

You might want to consider a small 2 stage machine that can handle the deeper snowfalls as well as the lighter amounts. If you have your heart set on a Honda, consider the HS724WA (wheel drive). A wheel drive unit is easier to maneuver than a track drive unit. Ariens and Toro also make nice smaller 2 stage machines that cost much less than the Honda and are just as capable. I would tend to focus on the typical snowfall amounts you see rather than the oddball storm that happens every few years or so. If you really want to live large, buy one of each and you'll have all your bases covered. :)

FrankMA is spot on. Somedays one machine is not enough, and most of the time the other machine is just too overkill. It comes down to finance and storage space. Quite a few of us on this forum have both so we are prepared every winter. Both models that you mentioned are good machines so that's a good start.

I definitely realize the single stage is quite sufficient for me. Last year there wasn't even any snow. Usually there's less than 2 feet of snow throughout the year. Driveway is about 200 feet long. 2 cars can be parked side by side to give you an idea of width. It is on an incline, close to 30 degrees, maybe a little more. haha, 2 machines would be great. Doubt the wife will go for that. Storage and finances are ok. I guess I was just looking for a reason to buy the track drive Honda so that it would be easier to go back up the inclined driveway. it's not easy justifying certain tools. thanks

If finances are OK, then why get two?  Just get the Honda and you are good for anything.  Sounds like you will need it if there is a big snow with conditions as you describe em (wide, 200 feet and sloped).

Have you considered buying one machine new and the other as used off of Craigs List? Lots of good deals once spring rolls around and people begin to focus on lawn tractors and other summertime OPE. This would fly a bit easier with your boss (wifey) and get you both a single stage and 2 stage for whatever comes your way.

For the price of a big Honda he could buy a Toro SS machine and a mid size Ariens or Toro.  That's the route I'd go.  One of each. 

I live on the north shore of Lake Superior.  We get snow.  Lots of snow.  My driveway is 110' long x 20' wide with a 35' x 35' turn around at the top.  It has a 10% grade up hill from the street.   I use one of my SS machines 90% of the time.  It takes a serious storm for me to pull out the big Simplicity.  I think I "had" to use it once last year.  Otherwise, I'd pull it out just to put some time on it rather than just let it sit all winter.  I've got very capable Tecumseh 2 cycle powered SS machines that I bought for a cheap as $30.00.  With a bit of modification (governor over-ride)  those machines will move a lot of snow with relative ease.  They're the best snow blower bang for the buck that I've come across.   I also own a 2010 Toro 221QRE  single stage, which is a great machine.  Didn't really need it but considering they were going out of production, I couldn't resist buying one from HD when they went on sale for less than $600.00. 

  

raysmd wrote:
"Driveway is 200 feet long...incline, close to 30 degrees"  the grade just seems so much worse comes winter time.  That's reason enough to buy a tracked snowblower.  My single stage snowblower at 90 pounds with the rubber paddles has no trouble accellerating down a slope with me behind the handles.  Definitely fun but scary when there's no control of the slide.

"It's not easy justifying certain tools"...have your wife and kids come outside and clear the snow on days they need to get to work and to school.  It's not so easy to use the wrong tools for the job when the weather is beating down on you. 

aa335 wrote:
That's the tact I have used in the past and it almost always brings an end to any further discussion about whether or not (fill in OPE choice here) is needed. You need to have the right tools for the job at hand, especially as you get older. Another way to justify the cost of OPE is to amortize the cost over the expected service life of the equipment. A $ 2,500.00 purchase with an expected service life of twenty years is $ 125.00/year. A big 2 stage snowblower in your neck of the woods however, might be a bit harder to justify than where I live. Last winter was a bust as far as snow goes but the year before (winter 2010 - 2011) I logged about 35 - 40 hard hours on my 2 stage machine.

I follow a much simpler approach.  If I'm doing the snow clearing, I'm buying what I need to get it done.  Or sub-contract it out and wait 24 hours after a big blizzard.  :)

If I'm expected to keep the driveway clear, I expect to have the required equipment to do the job.  In my younger years, it was a shovel.  When we moved into the present house with the big driveway, I could keep up with minor amounts of snow.  However, with a big dump, there's no way I'd get it done, particularly if we had to get to work.  Accordingly, machinery is required.  Now that I'm older, even a large two stage machine can be taxing.  It's not a walk in the park that's for sure.  Normally, after an hour or more of wrestling with the Simplicity, I need to change my clothes due to sweat.  Can't blame that on getting older.  I'd get just as wet 30 years ago and I was very fit.  Personally, I find a large two stage machine easier to use when there's enough snow to warrant it's use.  Using the two stage for small amounts of snow means the machine works less but I'm still working just as hard controlling it.  Hence my recent appreciation for single stage machines.  I had never owned one before two years ago and now wouldn't be without one.  That's why I've scooped up all three Tecumseh powered SS machine I've seen posted in local ads. 

I just got back in from going over the $30.00, 2006 Murray I picked up last summer.   When I bought it, I cleaned the carb and spark plug, fired it up then put it away.  Today, I opened up the housing, checked out the engine mount, belt drive system and paddles.  This machine is almost mint.   Paddles and drive belt show very little wear.  I put in some fresh fuel and fired it up on the first pull.  The engine has tons of compression and runs strong.  Responds crisply to throttle input and revs up impressively.  From what I've seen of it so far, it seems that it might even be stronger than to old '97 Craftsman, which is virtually the same machine albeit older.  

What's interesting is that the Murray was built in China (engine built in USA).   I don't see any difference in build quality between the USA built Craftsman and the Chinese built Murray.  Both look very much the same.  However, the Craftsman did have a seriously cracked engine mount which threw the pulley alignment off which caused belt destruction.  The new mount I put on fixed that.   What needs to be understood though is that the Craftsman seems to have seen a lot of hard use before I bought it and is quite a bit older.  I plan to have the Murray first out so it will be seeing yeoman duty from now on or until it fails.  We'll have to see if it will hold up as well as the old Craftsman.  From what I've seen so far, I'm fairly positive that it will.  I'll put the Craftsman on back yard duty and the MTD or Toro on the deck where they'll see considerably less work. 

Will post a video of the Murray in action once we get some snow.   

borat wrote:

Another vote for that. Seems crazy to have a huge expensive machine you'll only need once every other year.

Going one step further, you might even consider getting a Toro 2 stroke now if you can, and see how it performs in a big snow when you get it. If you're not happy with the performance, then buy a small 2 stage Ariens.

I agree a single stage and 2-stage setup would be ideal. I've always been of the mind set, get the right tools for the job. Maybe buy the toro now and once I get that dreaded snow storm then I'll have my justification for buying the 2-stage thrower. so, I've found a Toro 221E for $580 shipped and a 221Q for $590 shipped. Really, get the 2-stroke over the new 621 (4-stroke)?

I would suggest getting the 2-stroke Toro with the Quick chute option, that's the model 221QR or 221QE. My neighbor has the 221QR and it is a very capable machine.  That's how I found out about Toro single stage snowblowers.  Seeing it in action and I was convinced.  I have the Toro 421QE model and I really like the Quick chute, identical to the current 621QZE model. It's expensive for a few plastic parts and a cable but the convenience was well worth it in the long run.

raysmd, you can't go wrong with the advice the guys here give you. For my $.02 I would say the Honda is way overkill both in cost & capacity, unless you're having to clear 12" to 18" of snow two or three times a month.It's a big expense that will sit in your garage collecting dust. Start with a good SS Toro and see how it goes. Or, if you like to tinker (as many of us do) find a used one you can refurb. Put the money you saved into some other "toys".
Although with the way the weather has been working backwards the last couple of years we may all be wrong about this!

Cheers

raysmd wrote:
Depends on your preferences.  Both machines have the same basic design and power so, snow moving efficiency should be the same.  The four cycle engine will be quieter.  Thats's for sure.  The machine will be a bit heavier and you'll have to do oil changes as required and possibly the occasional valve adjustment.  From my experience, the valve lash on these utility engines seem to stay within tolerance for quite a while. 

Two cycle engines start very easily in extremely cold conditions.   That likely won't be an issue for you but around here, temps can drop to -40F.  Mixing fuel isn't that big of a deal.   Depending on usage, a  couple gallons of mixed fuel will last most of the season.   Other than cleaning the spark plug every so often, a two cycle engine reqires virtually no maintenance, which is a big plus for people no so inclined.   Two cycle engines usually smoke a bit on start up but that goes away once the choke is set to off position and the engine warms up. 

My preference is for two cycle engines.  I like their simplicity and power output.  Don't mind the sound either.

 

Well looks like my philosophy is a bit different from most.  I am happy if I can just drive out and get back and a little snow dont matter.  So....If its only an inch or three (seldom is) I just drive thru it and dont worry about a single stage - thats why I got 4WD.  If its a lot deeper a single stage wont do it, or least wont do it easily, so I break out the tracker -  in simpler terms: dont bring a knife to a gunfight.

And don't bring a gun to a pile of snow.

Somewhat in the same situation but took a different direction.  I had a small single stage that was enough till the winter of 2010.  I ended up buying and rebuilding several 2 stagers (a couple to keep and the rest to sell) and I was able to essentially get a couple of 2 stagers for free.  Right now I have (after selling a couple of machines) about $100 invested in 8 blowers ranging from a 4 hp 20" to 10 hp 32".  If I sell one more, I won't have any of my $$ in any of them.

If you start with the right machine and are handy with tools, buying used can be a way to stretch your $$ a long way.  It's knowing what to look for and finding the right machine to fill your needs that's the hard part.  If you have the time and patience to do it off-season, there can be some real deals to be had.

I'm also getting up there in age, so anything that helps stall off a heart attack like 2010 tried to do to me is worth it.  I'll use my single stage on the light stuff, a 5 hp for midrange and one of the 10 hp if we get dumped on.

My only concern about the single stage is getting the blower back up the driveway. It's a decent incline. If I get the 2-stage the. It might not be useful for most of the year. I can always shovel it if it's light. I guess there isn't one machine that will be perfect for all situations

raysmd wrote:
My Driveway has an 10% grade.  It rises 11 ft. from the street, up the 110' length to the garage door.  The Toro has no trouble pulling itself up the hill.  As a matter of fact, if I set the governor over 4000 rpm, it's a handful to hold back going down the grade. 

I think you said your driveway has a 30% grade.  That's aweful steep for 200'.   Not sure how a SS machine would be to handle going down the grade moreso than up? 

I concur with Borat.  My drive is roughly 8-10 percent grade and when the surface is slippery, the SS can run away downhill.  It's a fine balance holding on to the handles to keep the machine from getting away from me or it taking me down as I loose my footing.  I use spikes on my shoes to gain some traction.  So going downhill is actually more challenging than uphill. 

aa335 wrote:
Good idea with the spikes.  I have a pair around here somewhere.  Just have to find them. 

I actually bought a new pair of boots to provide more traction when clearing the driveway this winter.  Almost fell on my a$$ a couple times last year going down the grade using the Toro.  The Craftsman machine doesn't  pull nearly as hard as the Toro and is much easier to manage.  That's one reason I prefer to use it.  The fact that it throws snow as good as, if not better than the Toro makes it easy to like as well. 

I can't imagine a 30% grade?  That's awful steep.

That settles it. Whenever I bring the trash cans down (square Rubbermaid with wheels) they will just roll away unless I keep pulling on them. If it's the same with the SS, then I could picture myself sliding as I try to hold onto the machine. Ordering the 928 track. The 724 is the perfect size, but for a couple of hundred $ more I get the 928 with light and electric start. Thanks guys. Hopefully I get some snow. At least 8 inches or else my neighbors are going to think I'm out of my mind. If it's less, then I'll just drive over the snow

borat wrote:
I don't see how anybody can build a driveway that steep in an area that receives ice and snow.  Is that still within building code?  It sounds difficult to deal with snow clearing even with a tracked snowblower.  I know it can climb stairs but I would not want it to climb more than 6 feet up.  That's 300 lbs of machine that can crush the operator.  Hopefully there's a shoulder of grass on both sides and not a ditch.

aa335 wrote:
Actually, the OP said the grade is 30 degrees.  That equates to a 57.7 % grade. 

Something doesn't sound right.  He'd need to hire sherpas just to help him get up and down the driveway!!

See link below:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/slope-degrees-gradient-grade-d_1562.html

borat wrote:
I'm thinking a ski lift or a snow groomer (Pisten Bully) would be suitable for the task.

My mistake. 30 degree incline, from my geometry days.

raysmd wrote:
Same difference.  A 30 degree incline is the same as a 30 degree grade or slope. 

I'm assuming you mean 30% grade which is still extremely steep.  Effectively what you saying is that your driveway, rises 60 ft. over a length of 200 ft.   That would be difficult to even walk up. 

To establish your grade, you need to know what the elevation difference is between your garage and the street.  I.e , if your garage floor is 20 ft. higher than the street and your driveway is 200' long, that's a 10% grade.