Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Toro is using a Lincon 163cc engine in both their 421 and 621.  Both have the same engine but differ slightly in part number.

Toro lists these for the part numbers:

for the 421, 119-1942 1 Engine-Lc168Fds-1

for the 621, 119-1943 1 Engine-Lc168Fds-1

   They are probably the same engine with some minor change.

    The 421 has some sort of carb or EPA type listing as ACGPS 1631SA

    The 621 has BCGPS 1631SA.

     Anyone know what the difference in these two engines are?  I suspect a jet or governor spring change.  So far I have not been able to locate a parts breakdown for these two. 

for the 421, 119-1942 1 Engine-Lc168Fds-1

for the 621, 119-1943 1 Engine-Lc168Fds-1

   They are probably the same engine with some minor change.

    The 421 has some sort of carb or EPA type listing as ACGPS 1631SA

    The 621 has BCGPS 1631SA.

     Anyone know what the difference in these two engines are?  I suspect a jet or governor spring change.  So far I have not been able to locate a parts breakdown for these two. 

UPDATE:

    Went through the drawings and the only difference between the 421E and 621 is the carb listing.  The carb on the 421 is a Huayi which I think is similar to the carb on the Honda GX200 clones.  Looks like it might be easy to turn a 421 into a 621.  The Huayi carb are pretty cheap.

That would be a great idea especially if physical size of the machine is important. I was in Home Depot yesterday looking around out in the garden section for any winter equipment bargins (not yet) and could'nt help but notice the size difference between the 421 and 621. As I looked at the two, I kept thinking that it would be nice to have the power of the larger 163cc engine  from the 621 in the smaller package that is the 421. The newer Toro 621 just seems to be massive in comparison to the older Toro CCR series or the Honda HS621's. It would be sweet if a simple carb swap out did the trick and walla....instant jump in power in a nice, neat, little 421 package. You're definitely onto something here trouts!

Frank,

   You post mentioning a size difference suprised me as I compared my 421 to a 621 and had part number matches.  Yesterday I compared the 38454 versions of 2011 421 and 2012 621 ZE.  The size is the same but minor differences in shroud fasteners and one side piece.  There is a drive cable change but other than that the drive and frame are the same.  Since you saw a bigger one then other 621 2012 versions are different from the one I checked, the 621 ZE.

    It turns out the 421 and 621 engines are all the same Loncon engine.  Toro has 2 part numbers for them which seem to be electric start 119-1942 or recoil 119-1943.  It's not a difference for carbs or governors.  There is one different carb on a version of 621, the 621EZ which uses 120-4418.  The rest use the same 120-4419 carb and governor setup 119-1957.  The shrouds are all different part numbers so cover changes and possible some other underneath support stuff but I would think the base drive components the same. 

   There is no larger footprint engine going from 4 to 6hp as they all have the same 163 engine internals.  They're doing some slight thing to bump the hp which may be just a governor setting or a minor carb change the are not bumping the part number for like a jet Toro inserts at the assembly time. Regardless it should be a simple thing to buck a 421 to 6hp.   

   If anyone has a rev spec for their 421 or 621 please post it.

trouts2 wrote:
The 421 is the same as a 621 mechanically.   Any particular reason to turn a 421 into a 621?  Those are covered under a recall for fuel leak.  As far as I know, there is no performance upgrade from the carbs swap.  Unless Toro has secretly upped the hp and not tell the world about it, not very likely to slip by the marketing department without some up specmanship.

My 421QE is powerful in stock form.  Even when working on the EOD or the heavy toothpaste sludge snow, the engine has enough power and torque to do the work.  A slight bump in HP would be nice, but I rather see some noise/vibration abatement upgrades to make the machine quieter and more comfortable to use.  Also, a fuel shut off on the console would be nice.  A "boratified" switch would be nice too, selectable normal / boost position, only use boost position when you need it, normal to be comfortable and quiet to save fuel.  And last of all, don't make them physically anymore bloated than they are. 

That's just my opinion.  SS can be made more powerful and biggger, but then it's start to encroach on 2 stage territory, and loose its advantages as a SS.  Toro tried this with the Snow Commander and that didn't stay on the market very long.

>>>Those are covered under a recall for fuel leak. 

    In context that applied to all 421 and 621.  No.   Last night I looked at the Toro site and they listed two model numbers only for recall which were both Q versions of 421 i.e. no 621 or 421 versions like 421 ZE and R,

Toro PC-421Q Snowblowers: The model/serial numbers are found on a decal on the underside of the rear of the unit. Model and serial numbers are:

Model Number Serial Number

38588 310000001 to 310999999 and 311000001 to 311003576

38589 310000001 to 310999999 and 311000001 to 311999999

You are correct Trouts,

The recall applies to the 421QR and 421QE, with production dates in 2010 and 2011.  The 621 is a 2012 model which is not under recall, which is Toro intent to differentiate this model for obvious marketing reasons. 

aa35, "The 421 is the same as a 621 mechanically". 

   Not sure if you are refering to body and drive parts including engine.  The drive and clearing parts seem mostly the same. 

  I had assumed the engines in 421 and 621 were approximaply 4 and 6hp's.  On looking at the Toro lit I have here I can't find any hp spec for2011 and 2012 models.  Online at some sales places there are hp ratings and they are all 5.5 for the 421 and 621.  What are the hp ratings for various newer than 2010 models? (The older R*Tec's and Tecumseh's has hp ratings so not those).

  

trouts2 wrote:
The 421 model naming was against convention of the industry, possibly to signify Toro's first introduction of a 4 stroke engine in the SS product line.  In Toro's naming scheme at the time, the 4 indicates a 4 stroke engine (not 4 HP!), 21" wide.  It's confusing because the 421 model name was also used in Toro's older 2 stage machine. 

In 2009, joining the 2 stroke 221Q model line, the Toro 421Q had a side valve engine, I don't recall if it was Tecumseh or Briggs, and has a rated 5 hp.  For 2010-2011, the Toro 421 received a new engine, 163cc OHV Loncin, with a slight increase in HP.  The current 2012 year model 621 also have this same engine, maybe with some minor tweaks and corrections.  The OHV engine reportedly has higher HP than the side valve engine. 

>>>Any particular reason to turn a 421 into a 621?

 

   A few reasons.  I’ve been wondering about how price breaks happen say between MTD and Toro/Areins for a long time ever since I found a Craftsman with what I thought was a reduced quality crankshaft compared to what I found in Ariens machines. 

   On my four stroke machines I’ve always bumped the governor settings higher.  On two strokes I generally bump the revs but mildly.  I’ve never  “over drove” a two stroke until I had the governor problem last year on a Powerlite.  After spending many hours with that machine I realized that it was taking what seemed to be some brutal over rev punishment very well.  Then boratification happened and I started pushing two strokes and convinced by Borat that they could take it, especially the HSK850.

    The HSK and R*Tec’s in the various horse power Toro’s and other machines have been a puzzle as to how makers were extracting more hp with similar engines. 

    It’s all relates to what makers are claiming, doing and price. 

    I now know what’s going on with the Tecumseh and R*Tec side but the Loncin is unknown.  I’m not sure how Toro gets from 4 to 6 with these but it’s looking like they may all be 5.5hp rated engines for 2011 and 2012.  Still not sure so want to muck with them and also see what they can be pushed to.

 

 

>>>My 421QE is powerful in stock form.  Even when working on the EOD or the heavy toothpaste sludge snow, the engine has enough power and torque to do the work. 

    I’ve read many good reports on the 4 stroke SS’s and wanted one for some testing.

 

>>>A slight bump in HP would be nice,

     Reason enough to muck with them to extract more.  I don’t have the same experience many on this and other forums do with them.  Over the years they have gotten bigger engines and more capable for more than just cleanup and light snows. 

 

>>>Also, a fuel shut off on the console would be nice. 

     Yes but that would be higher than the tank.  There’s exposed line on the 421 bottom where a filter can be installed under the cover and the shutoff closer to the carb at an opening in the bottom cover very easy to get to. 

 

>>>A "boratified" switch would be nice too, selectable normal / boost position, only use boost position when you need it, normal to be comfortable and quiet to save fuel. 

     I’ve converted all my SS’s to be like Borat’s, very low idle RPM with the string as throttle so chainsaw like.   Gives the engine a break and I could care less about the belt which I think is not a problem anyway.

 

>>>And last of all, don't make them physically anymore bloated than they are. 

    They are getting in to two classes.  The smaller for porch and cleanup and the big guys for full time clearing i.e. not a two stage supplement for many.

>>>Toro tried this with the Snow Commander and that didn't stay on the market very long.

     Just what happened with them is unclear.  Possibly there was no well priced engine in a two stroke and 4’s also.  Toro has dumped 2’s and Briggs for Loncin.  Hard to guess what’s going on.

 

    I’ve wanted an SS 4 stroke for some time but they were expensive, even second hand… until now.   A guy was selling 3 421’s for very little with the claim that they never had seen snow, started or had gas in their tanks. 

   The price was way too good to be true but I decided to take a look and bought one.  After getting it home the machine was fine, never had gas and the paddle never rubbed on anything.  It was as advertised, a mint 421ZE.  I scrambled through drawings to find out what I could and the cause of the original post.  After firing it up and checkout I bought another.  I would have gotten two but he only had one left.

 

    The net reports for Loncin are pretty good.  I know the maker from China and familiar with their motorcycles.  They are a capable factory and make many grades of engine.  I assume Toro would not order a marginal engine for a price break so think the engine will be fine.  I fired up one of the 421’s and it’s smooth and runs fine.  It’s seems just like the 6hp Honda.  Itching to try one out.  Also itching to see how flexible the engine is.

 

   Size wise the 421 is a bit bigger than a Toro 3650 but seems a bit lighter and easier to move. There’s not a big difference but the difference given the footprint was a surprise.

Below are some picts of the new pair and a few with the 3650 for comparison.

 

trouts2 wrote:
I'm fairly sure that the 163cc Loncin engine on the 2009-2012 is not rated at 4 HP, they may be 5.5 to 6.0 hp.  I don't have an urge to bump the RPM on this engine, plenty of power for a SS as is.  I had my Honda GX160 rpm bumped up and it just didn't sound and feel right.  So I'm not going to attempt it on this Loncin engine.

>>>I'm fairly sure that the 163cc Loncin engine on the 2009-2012 is not rated at 4 HP, they may be 5.5 to 6.0 hp. 

 

   What I’ve seen so far is the ratings are all 5.5hp but nothing "official" from Toro. 

 

>>>I don't have an urge to bump the RPM on this engine, plenty of power for a SS as is.

 

    It certainly seems like an engine with plenty of power but that’s without using it so not worth much.  I really like the sound of the Loncin.  I’m excited about this engine but frustrated by no snow.

 

    As is from the factory mine runs at 3900 rpm.  I’ll muck with it to see what seems comfortable for it. 

 

   Stopped at a Toro dealer.  The mechanic was to familiar with the Loncin so not sure about it’s proper rpm setting.  He thought it was made by Toro.  Going by what they said it looks like the 421 has been dropped and only 418 and 621’s available. They had no idea what the 4 or 6 stood for.  My guess is the old 421 and new 621 are the same thing with slight case mods and the Q option.