Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

  Yep, those side slashes look like shark gill slits, aggressive and waiting for more revs to suck in air.

 

  On the scout for a Borat-like machine and came across a similar but unfortunately 3hp version.  Pretty sure it’s the same model Craftsman as Borat’s with a HSK600.  I wondered what that big case was all about and it’s not much.  It’s an empty cavern in there with the peanut size 600.  Tons of room. 

 

   Twenty dollars, electric start, augers fine, and it fires up with gas in the throat.  I put out a couple of emails looking for an 850.

 

   The red one is Murray 3hp HSK600.  Ten dollars.  Got that apart and it seems fine.  Augers are full, 95 psi compression and the carb cleaned right up.  Starts fine and runs well. It needs a chute hold down bracket in the front but that’s about it for flaws. 

    It was a surprise to find a carb bowl access plate on the bottom cover.  But after seeing what was required to get the bottom cover off for carb access it makes sense.  Getting the bottom cover off requires taking off the belt cover and they used bolts rather than sheet metal screws.  The bolts are hard to get to.  So I think the carb bowl plate was added to give the mechanic a shot at cleaning the carb somewhat and not have to go through taking off the covers.  A carb cleaning on this would probably be $200 at a shop. 

 

    The Craftsman cover is ringed with scads of bolts and looked like a hassle which is why the red Murray got done first.  Not looking forward to taking off the Craftsman covers. 

    

Nice finds Trouts. 

Why Craftsman would put a dinky HSK600 in a machine that size is beyond me.  That's just plain silly.  However, you can probably jack the 600 up to 6 h.p. if you spin it enough.   An 850 is most certainly what you need in that thing. 

Did you say in one of your earlier posts that you got rid of three HSK850s to make room?   Don't want to rub it in but you should have hung onto those babies.  They're great little engine.  Live and learn I guess....

Wow, nice finds!! My SS has the little HSK600, but there was also a version with the HSK850. I thought the same thing when I took the cover off, there was this little engine, and huge expanse of empty space. Frankly, the lager engine takes it from 98cc to about 140cc, so it's still probably not nearly taking up all the room in there.

I think the belt pulleys for the HSK850 version of mine were different. The engine ran at a lower RPM, but had basically the same auger speed as mine.

I thought getting the cover off mine was a pain (and it is). But looking at the Craftsman, maybe mine still isn't so bad. Thanks for posting the compression on the Murray. Now I have something to reference against my 90psi.

I like the shark fins. You do know that putting on a Mugen/TRD/similar sticker on it will add 10hp, right?

>>>Did you say in one of your earlier posts that you got rid of three HSK850s to make room?

 

    Three HSSK50s.  They were all nice but hanging around for a long time.  The thought was they might have been usable in an SS four stroke.  I have been staying away from lower hp two stages unless they’re exceptional.  I might start buying low hp and light SS’s.  They’ll sell no matter the brand.  It’s like 3 and 3.5 hp old mowers.  They are light and guys love them for trimming. 

 

>>>I like the shark fins. You do know that putting on a Mugen/TRD/similar sticker on it will add 10hp, right?

   Yep, fast’y logos for added bang.  A few years ago I picked up a done over 8hp Ariens from a biker.  It was done up with skulls and cross bones, bloody daggers and other charming pictures. 

 

   On the compression reading it’s not just how far it gets but also how it gets there.  If you can get 90 on one strong pull on a HSK600 I think that is indicative of an excellent motor.  I have not been able to find anything relating number of pulls to health.  Just for consistency I always do four but note each pull for differences between engines.  It does seem the faster they get to top readings the better the engine.

    Also, the engines with better compression seem to start faster.  You can feel the cord  give when they fire before the cord is fully out which happens often with a good starting high compression engine.  Nothing scientific but quick to reach max psi and fast start limp cord seem to go with healthier engines.

    Time to head out to the garage and work on the Maco.   I'm itching to check out the belt on that.  I'm hoping it's a 1/2 incher not a 3/8's. 

 

dddd

Trouts:

The belt for the Mako is likely going to be the same as the one in my Craftsman and it's a 3/8 x 35.  Been there already and done the homework.  Sears want $53.00 for that belt.  I bought a belt from NAPA for $7.00 last year and it's been hanging in there pretty good despite taking twice the load of a stock machine.    I'm presently using a NAPA  FHP  3L350 type belt on the Craftsman.  If and when you take apart the other machine (Murray), let us know if it uses the same belt.   

For getting out all of the screws for the Craftsman cover, I use a 1/2" cordless drill with a 1/4 drive socket extension and a 1/4 drive socket.  Zip,  zip, zip....   Fast.   You'll also probably have to take off the chute as well.  It's a pain in the a$$.  It's tight in there and will have to use a couple wrenches if I recall correctly.   Take a look at your engine mount too.  Make sure it's sound.  

By the way, if I were you, I'd pull the HSK850 out of the MTD and put it into the Craftsman.   I think the HSK600 would be more suitable in the MTD due to the lightness of that machine.  My MTD has the 850 in it and it's not nearly as functional as the Craftsman.  It's just too light for that much power.   

   Taking a frustration break…..

 

    The Mako belt is a thin ¾ ribbed belt.  Not off yet so not sure how long.  I’m surprised it’s different than yours.  ??  I’d bet the year is close.  I think your’s is 1997.  I’ll try to pin mine down.  By the way, I searched all over and could not find a manual for yours.  Maybe the two are only a year or two apart and crossed a design change. 

 

>>>I use a 1/2" cordless drill with a 1/4 drive socket extension and a 1/4 drive socket.  Zip,  zip, zip....   Fast.  

 

   No cordless drill here but I should probably look into getting one.  Nine tenths of the work here on big blowers is with a compact ¼ set and most of the time with a 7/16 socket. No heat in the garage though so I’d probably have to take it in each night.

 

    No zip, zip here.  I hand unscrewed them.  That was ok but the front has two small bolts that are sunk into recessed holes, in about 1 ½ inch. The recess is tapered and I could not get a socket in there.  I had to grind the bottom nut off on both of them.  Had to grind of 3 on the belt cover on the other machine.  The heads were rusted and just slipped in the socket. 

 

>>>Take a look at your engine mount too.

   Ah, good point.  I’ll have to give it a good checkout when I go back out.  It got 80psi on 4 pulls.  65 on the first which is ok.  Not many get way high on the first pull.   It will toss ok but won’t be peaked.  Might be better if it was worm but probably not by much if any.  BTW, RedOct, all those other readings I mentioned and the ones in the past few weeks were all cold.   

 

"The Mako belt is a thin ¾ ribbed belt.  Not off yet so not sure how long.  I’m surprised it’s different than yours.  ??  I’d bet the year is close.  I think your’s is 1997."

Yes.  Mine is a '97 with a manufacturing date of 1995 for the engine.  Maybe the reason for the different belts is that one is an HSK600 and the other an 850.  The smaller engine doesn't need as stout a belt?   However, despite that, it doesn't make economic sense to me to change the drive system components when the rest of the machine looks virtually the same.  Of course, I could be wrong.  I haven't seen the inside of the 3/21 so I really don't know.   For comparison purposes, here are a few pics of mine Trouts:


My great white:  Got to paint the belly pan white....



Great white skinned:


Great white engine mount fix.

Interesting. The way the engine is mounted in yours looks odd to me, borat Looks like it's just hanging out in space. I do really like your engine mount, nice work! Apart from the color being different it looks downright professional. And nice shot of the boratificator (governor string)!

For comparison, this is my SS322. Very different under the hood. Excuse the mess, this was when I'd just gotten it, and hadn't cleaned it up yet. The pics were just for my use, so they're not great. Mine has the HSK600, with a 33" x 3/8" v-belt.

Oh, and trouts2, if I were to guess, I'd imagine that # of pulls for the compression reading to stabilize would vary a lot. Even assuming your compression tester has a checkvalve right at the sparkplug fitting, the length and diameter of the tubing between the valve and gauge will affect the # of pulls required to stabilize the reading. The engine displacement will also make a difference (a small engine will need more pulls, since it doesn't cram as much air past the checkvalve on each compression stroke). In addition, you of course want to minimize the volume before the checkvalve. One time I forgot, and checked this engine after connecting the ~3" cylindrical extension tube that came with my compression tester. The reading dropped from 90 to about 75, due to the added volume in the compression chamber, as it now also had to fill the extension tube. I'd significantly lowered the effective compression ratio of the engine. Removed the extension tube, so that the checkvalve was right at the sparkplug hole, and it went back up to 90. The engine was cold for my checks.

I'm not disputing that it's a useful thing to observe/compare. Just that there may be several reasons why guidelines for # of pulls aren't published. I have no idea what my engine read after one pull. I check my engines by pulling quickly until the reading stops climbing.

Thanks for the compliments Red.

I made the engine mount brace from a bracket used hold switches for a satellite dish.  It had only one 90 degree bend in it so I had to measure and bend it again to make it fit just right against the handle upright.   Then I had to grind out the semi circle to clear the output shaft.  After that, I put grease on the available holes (lucky that they were already there and threaded) on the engine block and pressed the plate against the holes to make marks to drill the holes.   Once I had the holes drilled, I had to use spacers between the plate and the engine block to allow the brace to line up properly with the handle upright so I could mark a spot to drill a hole to put a bolt through the plate and handle upright.  Put locktite on the bolts into the block and used locktite and a lock nut on the handle end bolt.  The brace is quite a bit thicker than the original sheet metal used for the engine mount plate, making it stiffer and more resistant to vibration and flexing.  So far, it seems to be holding up well. 

Cost?  About the same as the piece of string.   Nothing better than fixing something with nothing and it staying fixed. 

I'm surprised that these 2 stroke engines shown are mounted to the chassis only on the side of the output shaft.  I'm used to seeing the Honda HS621 engine mounted in three places, output shaft side, bottom, and at the front to the bucket.  You can literally stand on the engine and it will not break loose from the mounts.  I'm sure these two stroke engines are much lighter and can rev up higher without the same vibrations as a 4 stroke engine so mounting is not as demanding, but I'm very surprised to see the engine dangling and not supported on both sides. 

Borat,

   The lower brace is different on mine.  Yours looks like a side to side rod under the engine.  Mine has a U shapped iron from side to side up higher by the back of the intake housing.  Some bracing in your picture high on the right is different.  My manual is from 1996 so close but I guess the two models have some differences besides engine and belts.  Nice job on the plate. 

Red,

    Intersting on the length of air making a difference to the readings.  It never occured to me.  I have been using a 16 inch flex connector to the gauge for years.  I guess it would take a smaller engine more pumps to work the tube aire versus a bigger piston engine.  

Trouts:

I've looked high and low for any type of service manual for the HSK850.  No such luck.  Difficult engine to get information on.  What I did find out however is what the "HSK" stands for.  H - horizontal SK - Snow King.   Not valuable info but at least I can now keep the letters straight.

Observe broken engine mount.  It's cracked all the way down.  Note thickness of brace plate.  The original mount is thin sheet metal.  Looks thick but it's actually bent over.



This is the best I could find for an HSK850 engine diagram.  Shabby resolution.  Not much detail but at least gives us an idea.  If anyone has knowledge of where downloads can be found for this engine, please let us know.

   I was asking for the Craftaman manuals.

For the HSK850 user put  the number below 31AS231-729 and 1 for a serial number at this site http://manuals.mtdproducts.com/mtd/Public.do For a parts view you should be able to get the number off the side of the engine and google it.   That should find partstree and your engine. If not then put your number here. http://www.outdoordistributors.com/Tecumseh/tecumseh_part_lists.html

Trying to get a Craftsman manual will be very difficult.   Never seen  Sears give anything of use away for free.   Probably better off finding a Murray manual for the equivalent Craftsman machine. 

   I was going to email you the Tecumseh user and my Craftsman owners but could not find your email address.

   The Techumeh user is not so helpful and the Craftsman is not a 100% match.  Some of the owners manuals
have a exploded views but not this one.  There's actually quite a bit few Craftsman manuals online but not much
from Craftsman directly.  

You can sometimes find Murray and many other old manuals at the site below.  If not a direct match you can poke around
for a model close and often get numbers for parts.
http://www.partsandservice.com/

This place is also hit or miss.  Last month I picked up an old Craftsman table saw that had never been used.  Got the
manual from the place below.  Nice old time manual with an extensive section on saw setup plus a parts section.

http://www.manualsonline.com/

borat, how about this one? It's the "Tecumseh Technician's Handbook", it covers the HSK850.

http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/html/engine-specs/tecumseh/Tecumseh_HSK-HXL_TVS-TVXL_Engines_Service_Information.pdf

The Technician's Manual that covers the HSK600 can be found at:

http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/html/engine-specs/tecumseh/Tecumseh_2-Cycle_Engines_Service_Information.pdf

If it's of any help, this is an Owner's Manual for the HSK600-870

http://www.managemylife.com/mmh/owner_manuals/9538/TECUMSEH-Engine-L060103

Sometimes, on partstree.com, I'll zoom in a bunch of times (as I recall, they have Zoom In and Zoom Out buttons), until the image is really big, then right-click it and do Save Image. That way you can get a higher-resolution version than it shows you by default. Still not great, but an improvement sometimes.

  Borat,

   Pictures below of the bracing on the Murray 3hp and Craftsman 3/21.  Both have a U channel cross brace.  The right side of the engine is not supported.  Some Toro models have a brace the left aide of the engine with a bracket that runs from supports below the engine to a bolt sticking out of the center of the recoil.  It's good support but makes changine a pull rope involved.

   Took a look at the 850 manual Red posted.  There's a caution in there about running higher RPMs.  They say it will lead to a lean condition and over heating.  The effect won't be immediate but over time probably degrade the engine.  Seems reasonable enough and monitoring the plug would probably show a deeper grayish to darker dry ash.  Maybe that can be offeset by running a bit richer or running with a tad of choke. 

 Red,

    A paper clips works well for attaching a string.  The clip goes through the throtte shutter hole for the governor spring and the other end gets the string.  The muffler is just above and to the left of the carb as you look at the carb.  The case hole for the muffler is right there so it works out the height of the throttle shutter is about the same level as the base of the muffler and its case hole.  The string can be run out of the muffler hole.  That setup should be the same for just about any SS running an HSK600.  Next time I'm in the Powerlite I'll have to update to a paperclip. 

   Started and run both with the string.  The engine sounds ok with the rev boot. 

Craftsman 3/21

Murray 3hp

Yeah, I read that somewhere in the Tecumseh manual. 

I'd suspect that running the engine at extremely high rpms continuously might lead to a lean condition.  Particularly if there is any type of restriction of the main jet.  On/off load and rpm variance should pretty much negate a lean condition.  I should pull the spark plug on the Craftsman to see how it looks.  it's seen lots of work and plenty of revving so, the plug should give me an idea of how it's running.  If there is any indication of a lean condition, I'll slightly enlarge the main jet with welding torch tip cleaners to improve fuel flow.  Simple fix if it's required.    First thing I have to do however is to cut a hole in the cover to get at the spark plug.    

You'll have to use a fairly stout paper clip.  There's not any tension on the lever when the engine isn't running.  Once it's fired up the lever moves and required a bit of force to actuate governor over-ride with the string.

I decided to take a look at the spark plug on the Craftsman.   There's no place to cut a hole for pulling the plug.  Seems the spark plug lines up with the primer bulb on the dash. I found a simpler way to access the engine.  The rear portion of the belly pan is held on by six or eight screws.  undo the screws, pull the piece clear of the choke lever on the carb and the engine is accessible to inspect the spark plug. 

Spark plug looks great.  Couldn't ask for better.  No plans to do anything with the carb when the  plug looks this good. 

Apologize for the image size.  I did rezise but still too big.




Spark plug access:

   I'm not a great plug read so the comments are not saying your off as much as bouncing what my take for feedback. 

   My understanding is the grey/brown dry ash chould extend for 1/2 the horizontal section of the shank.   That's generally what I see.  Your plug has the ash extend way past the curve down the verticle section.  That seems to me hot but just how hot and the effect I'm not sure.  If it were me I'd look at leaning up.   I think this might be your first look at the plug so just what is there and due to the rev bump unknown.  Maybe the extended ash happened before.  

    The plug has not been in there that long with extra revs so might get worse or stay as is.  Nothing alarming.  It would take quite a bit of run time before a more indicative plug would show itself even if it's running hot.

Update:  I've never come across anything that differentiated between two or four strokes.  I would think the oil would if nothing else change the ash color.   Have you ever come across anything like that?

" My understanding is the grey/brown dry ash chould extend for 1/2 the horizontal section of the shank.   That's generally what I see.  Your plug has the ash extend way past the curve down the verticle section.  That seems to me hot but just how hot and the effect I'm not sure."

Not sure where you get/got your instructions for reading spark plugs but from my experience,  you might be "reading" too much into it. 

The key to reading the plug is the colour of the area exposed to the combustion process.  Tan is the desired colour.  How much on each component is of no concern as long as they're all tan. 

From the picture I provided, it's pretty clear that it's all tan, which indicates an engine that's running properly.   As you are aware, I pretty much specialize in two cycle engines and I have to say that the spark plug in the HSK850 is about as good as it gets.  There should be very little variance between a properly running four cycle engine and a properly running two cycle engine.   If the fuel to air mixture is correct and the spark plug in the correct heat range, the plug should look similar to the picture of the one I've posted. 

I've seen what hot  plugs and lean conditions can do to a two stroke engine.  I've fixed more than a few snowmobile engines that had holed pistons from too hot of a plug to too lean a fuel mixture.  It's not a pretty sight.   I'm more than happy with the condition of the plug in the Craftsman.  Particularly since it's been pushed for hours with no sign of a problem yet.

You want to see ugly?  Check this out.  It's the plug from my B&S 305cc Kool Bore snow engine.  Can't say for sure if it was the oil but I had been running nothing but Mobile 1 5w30 synthetic in it.  I changed to a 5W30 high mileage conventional and after running it for a season, the plug looked  better last time I pulled it.

Here's a good link with lots of spark plug reading info:

  http://www.theultralightplace.com/sparkplugs.htm