Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

    The results of Borats Craftman seem pretty good even in comparison to the newer Toro's with 141cc engines and curved paddles runing stock rpm.  I gave up on MTD straight paddles a few years ago so stopped buying them. BUT given the good showing of Borats machine decided to give an HSK850 a fling for which a cheap MTD or Murray is a good candidate.

   This morning I picked up an MTD 5.5 in excellent shape, (mostly) for $100.   The body is excellent, no rust no scratches but the inside of the bucked has the paint scrapped.  The guys 3 car lot was sand and gravel with mounds and holes.  It's electric start, 4-5 years old but only used for two seasons due the owners heart condition. 

    It came with a line cord and for some reason three brand new belts, a bottle of Sta-Bil and a gallon and a half can of gas half full.  His son gave it to him with a bottle of Sta-Bil which he thought was the mix required.   He only ran it with Sta-Bil, no oil and from what he tells me only ran about slightly less than a gallon of gas through it since he got it.  He claimed that one can of gas half full he gave me was the only fuel he ever bought for it.  

   It fired up on the first pull and seemed to run strong so I ignored the no oil part and bought it.  It gets 95psi compression on three rope pulls and 115 on electric start so seems ok. 

Borat,

    I'd like to compare the flat paddle section of this one to yours.  If you can please measure your mid-paddle section flats.  What's the L and W of one section and what's the distance front to back?  The MTD is (2) 1 3/4 x 4 1/4 sections and the front to back span is 8 1/4.  If they match then the MTD should compare your Murray with booted RPM.  I've got an excellent condition Toro 3650 I'm using this year so have a good machine to compare with.

Trouts:

Close to the same measurements.  Flat section is 3 5/8" across by 1 3/4 deep.  Distance front to back same as yours 8 1/4.

The dimensions for the 21" MTD/Murray/Craftsman should all be pretty close. 

I'm surprised your machine has such good compression considering it was straight gassed!  If and when you open it up, pull off the muffler to take a look through the exhaust ports to see how the piston looks.

I've got a 2005 MTD on my deck that I bought used last year for $100.00.  It's like new.  I've got a string on the governor lever on that one too but the machine isn't as good as the Craftsman when it comes to throwing snow.  It seems too light to handle the power and tends to want to ride up on the snow.  It's OK for the deck the way it is but needs more weight if I were to consider using it for any serious work.  If you encounter the same problem, try putting some weight across the top front of the intake to help hold it down. 

Borat,

   Thank you for the measurements.  I thought your machine might have a bigger paddle output section or more velocity with a bigger diameter.  There’s no excuse for this thing to not output and be useful other than weight.  Never thought of that. 

   We’ll see if it can be muscled down.  That might not be a problem for younger professional clearers.  The first purpose of doing this was to muck around but it occurred to me that a beefed up machine could be of use to pro snow clearers.  Every year a couple come by to pickup machines.  They can race through light snow jobs with an SS’s saving scads of time over a two stages.   Having a beefed up clunker would be better deal than burning up an expensive Toro.

    Got string through a screw hole in the side of the cover right at the position of the top of the governor arm.  It works out the string is easy to work the governor and not a lot of friction on the string coming out of the case. 

    Your MTD probably has the open bottom like this one so a filter and shutoff were installed.  On draining the gas it was dark, slightly bluish unlike the gas in his refill tank which was slightly yellow amber.  He might have started out with a tank full of oiled gas and been diluting it over time.  Or possibly his son put in some oil and he forgot about it. It seems to run fine and doesn’t smoke so probably fine.  It snaps up very quickly to high revs. 

    Obviously there was a belt or tossing issue at some point and the reason for all the extra belts.  Belts of the wrong type for the electric start version.  The belt that’s on there now is a ½ x 35 ribbed so I suspect it had slipping problems and someone decided to use a ribbed belt.  The factory ½ x 35 is not ribbed.  

    Lots of people sold off their SS’s after last year’s big snows.  They probably expected too much.  Possibly the MTD's owner  owner had problems, suspected the belt and was given the wrong belt a few times. Very easy to do with this model.

   So it’s a done deal and now snow is needed to test.  No snow here through Feb 6 at the earliest. 

   Do you think it would be useful to stick in a cooler plug given the almost 30% increase in firing time?

   

Can't recall right now what's in mine but what heat range plug do you have in yours?   Personally, I don't think heat will be that much of an issue due to on/off the throttle operation.  If it were pegged full throttle for several minutes at a time, I might be pulling the plug to see how it looks. 

Otherwise, if the carb is running correctly and no indications of a lean condition, I wouldn't be too concerned about the plug.  Pretty sure my HSK850 machines are running on original plugs and no signs of any problems.  I'm thinking of cutting a hole in the plastic cowling to access the spark plug on my machines.  Lot of screws to pull to take the cover/chute off otherwise.  

What oil to fuel ratio you running Trouts?   I'm running mine around 32:1.  It's more oil than the recommended ratio but I like the idea of more oil if the engines are running at higher rpms and working harder. 

>>>Can't recall right now what's in mine but what heat range plug do you have in yours?  

RCJ8Y.  The concern was not for plug life.  It was for head, bore top and rings.  The extra temp from rpm boot would provide more residual heat that a cooler plug might help to dump.  ??  Not sure if would have any meaningful effect.

>>>I'm thinking of cutting a hole in the plastic cowling to access the spark plug on my machines.  Lot of screws to pull to take the cover/chute off otherwise.  

   Absolutely, it’s a bother to go in there.  Today I got the belt cover off and screws for the top undone but could not slip the cover over the chute because of the chute control handle.  The chute assembly is bolted on with 4 bolts accesed from below.  Two are hard to get at and one doubles as a motor mount.  I gave up and worked with the few inches gained by a loose cover.

    The sparkplug can be accesed by the hole in the cover right above the plug.  It’s covered with a removable plug so easy access. >>> MTD<<<, another first in innovation over Toro, Ariens the one the angles use – Honda.  You know who uses Yamaha.

>>>What oil to fuel ratio you running Trouts?  

   For all snow machines 50:1 even if less is spec’d.  For the booted machine I’ll probably run a tighter ratio.

   I guess I’ll have to go through the frame also and see what might happen with that.  The first take is the motor seems to be more solidly planted in there than the Powerlite type mounts with the hokey angled piece screwed into the recoil.  This is an experimental so if it rips itself apart it’s ok.  BTW: last week I gave away 3 very good condition HSSK50’s just to get rid of clutter, two with starters.  It never fails, I’m regretting it now.

(Is there a way to adjust text size in a post?)

Sounds nice, trouts2! Yeah, the extensive covers on SS's strike me as kind of a pain. It looks tidy (no "ugly" engine staring you in the face ), but it sure is more trouble to access anything. That's pretty cool that the MTD gives you a way to access the plug. I have no such access port, just a mystery hole in the back, facing the operator. The best use I can figure out for it is that maybe you could use it to spray starting fluid towards the carb's intake (even that isn't a straight shot). I don't have a tach/hour meter that I want to dedicate to this machine (I just have 1, and it gets moved around as needed). And because the plug wire is inaccessible, I can't just pop it on to quickly check the RPM's, if I start fooling with the governor. That's really lucky if your machine survived a brush with being straight gassed!

By the way: boratify- (v) to enhance the performance and value of an engine for very little money, by increasing RPM's, esp. by means of a string on the governor. Usage- "My snowthrower was OK, but kind of underpowered. But then I boratified it, and now it's awesome!"

We may need to submit it to Urban Dictionary.

I've been looking at the spark plug heat ranges for HSK850 engine.  The Champion RCJ8Y is the equivalent to the NGK BPMR4A.  Number 4 on the NGK scale sounds kind of hot to me.  Most machines I operate run in th 6 to 8 range.  They're generally air cooled two stroke motorcycle engines with no fan cooling.  I'd say that if the engine is going to be run hard and long, I'd probably lean toward a NGK plug in the 6 range.   If it weren't for all the effort it takes to get at the spark plug, I'd pull the one on  the Craftsman to see how it looks.  

It's safer to run a cooler plug than a hotter plug.  One thing we have to remember is that with the added RPMs, there's also added fan speed which produces more air across the cylinder head and around the cylinder.  With relatively cold air keeping things cooler, the engine might be fine with the stock plug.   Maybe tomorrow I'll cut a flap/hole over the engine head to access the spark plug.  Might as well cut a hole big enough to get my whole hand down in there.  I can see dropping the plug sooner or later and having to fish it out of the belly pan.   Going to be a pain in the butt to get the location right unless I pull the lid off of it and I really don't want to do that.  Especially in the cold.  

Damn you and your foresight Trouts!!  I never thought of the spark plug heat range issue on the hopped up machine.  Now I have to know!

Edited this morning....

I found this chart published by Champion that cross references heat ranges between different brands of spark plugs.  According to the chart, the "8" series Champions are equivalent to the "7" series NGKs.  if that's the case, the RCJ8Y should be alright.  It's not all that hot of a plug.  The BPMR4A is a fairly hot plug as rated by NGK.  Which leads me to another quandary,  if there is that much of a difference in heat range between the two brands, how does an NGK BPMR4A qualify as a replacement plug for the RCJ8Y?   Something doesn't sound right.   Comment?

I edited the above post to include more information concerning spark plug heat ranges in the HSK850 engine.

Looking for additional input and comments concerning the differences between the Champion and NGK brand heat range comparisons.

Did a bit more research.  It seems that the RCJ8Y is a common plug used in grass trimmers, chainsaws and other small, high revving two cycle engines that will be run in hot ambient temperatures.   With this recent acknowledgement, I'm not as concerned about the stock spark plug being used in a higher revving HSK850.  After all, the Tecumseh will not likely be spinning past 6500 rpm and usually working in cool conditions.  Many of the chainsaws using the same plug do twice that and much hotter conditions.   

I was looking around a month or so ago, trying to figure out NGK equivalents for the Champion plugs in my "new" machines. I'd been seeing comments that people prefer NGK to Champion, so figured I'd give NGK a shot. I was looking around to replace an RCY8Y, I think it was, and I was finding suggestions for either the BMPR4A or the BMPR6A. But I couldn't find a consistent answer (and I did not have your multi-brand cross reference, borat), so I was worried I might end up making things worse if I picked the wrong heat range. Finally just gave up and bought the suggested Champion plugs. I've never really had a problem with them, so I figured why potentially foul the plug or whatever because I picked the wrong substitute?

Your chart would fairly clearly make it sound like the 6A plug would have been a better match. But I wasn't sure. They don't go out of their way to make it easy to figure out a replacement.

Edit: These are two cross-reference documents I found while reading up on this previously. Maybe they'll help someone. As a point of reference, for NGK replacements for an RCJ8Y, the first link shows BPMR6A. The second link shows BPMR6A, BPMR4A, and BP6ES.

http://www.sparkplugs.co.uk/pages/technical/Champion-to-NGK-cross-ref.htm

http://www.jsesc.com/mfg_docs/ste/Spark_Plug_Interchange.pdf

For some reason, the information that I've been gathering leave me a bit unsettled regarding the comparative heat ranges.  The information on chart, although published by Champion is quite a bit different than proposed cross-equivalent plugs between NGK and Champion.  Three heat ranges difference "7" on the chart and "4" on the recommended NGK plug doesn't appeal very well to my logic.  Regardless, as per my edited message above, I've come to the conclusion the the RCJ8Y is likely cool/hot enough to work well in the HSK850. 

I've got several hours of hard work on my Craftsman with no signs of problems.  It just keeps on keeping on.  The only time it slows down or stops is when it runs out of fuel.


edit...

An NGK 6 makes much more sense.  Why some vendors recommend the NGK 4 is beyond me unless the actual heat  variance between a 4 and a 6 is not that great operationally. 

Regardless, I'm satisfied enough not to bother pulling the Craftsman apart.   When the temperatures warm up, I still think I'll make an access door in the cover to make spark plug maintenance easier. 

RedOctobyr: a mystery hole in the back, facing the operator

   Often there’s an empty opening for models sold without optional electric start.

 

RedOctobyr: I can't just pop it on to quickly check the RPM'

   Last year 4 machines were setup with wires on the plugs running to the handlebars.  That end had a quick connect and the mate on a short wire on the RPM meter.  It worked out OK for static readings but underway snowblowing the machines are changing speeds rapidly.  The small variations in load cause the RP M meter to re-compute which takes a few seconds and it presents fuzzy readings until the machine gets more stable.  I was looking monitor engine sagging and that usually happened too fast and unsteady for the meter’s response time.  That was on two stages which are much more stable than single stage machines.  On the riding mower things are more stable and the meters readout well but for those a few readings with a vibratech and you know what’s going on so a fixed meter there is not so worth the effort.

 

boratify- (v) to enhance the performance and value of an engine for very little money, by increasing RPM's, esp. by means of a string on the governor. Usage- "My snowthrower was OK, but kind of underpowered. But then I boratified it, and now it's awesome!"

 

Great definition.  Can that expand?  To borat…..When borating…..When finally borated…..

 

Borat and RedOctobyr:

  

    I had poked around last week because the dealer sold me a Honda BR4HS and my machines call for 6 and 8’s.  ??  Not sure why but I’m going to get the spec’d plugs.

 

   For all the reading I did what I’ve come up with on plugs is use what’s spec’d unless there’s a consistent plug condition that indicates going up or down would help.

 

   My asking about plug temp was for overall chamber temp.  It looks like the dissipation on a plug is so local that it won’t have any effect on the chamber.  So that’s out.

 

    For raised temps getting lowered by running a cooler plug.  ??  All I got from looking into that was confused.  Getting to know for sure requires equipment and test procedures I can’t do.  The only view into this is probably noting when the engine explodes, melts or throws a rod.  Better than that would be as you suggest, monitor the plug occasionally.  That’s easy, telling enough and probably all that’s required.

 

   An interesting point Borat made was that some OPE that scream and use 6 and 8’s at least by Champion charts.  Using an 8 in a pushed HSK850 will probably be fine.

 

   In some of the heat range stuff they talk about fitting a plug into a 500 to 800 degree range.  The heat ranges are big and broad so picking a plug you don’t really know about other than by 4, 6 or 8 indicating a temp range you don’t know for internal temps you don’t know is too much to deal with.  I give up.  The result of all that whatever is knowable by pulling the plug and having a look.  If something is suspected and another range might help then the charts are somewhat helpful for a ball-parking another range. 

 

  After mucking with the boratified machines 4000 seems like slow motion. 

 

"After mucking with the boratified machines 4000 seems like slow motion."

No kidding. 

I can't get my head around why single stage snow blowers were never manufactured with a throttle similar to a chainsaw?   What could possibly be the reason not to do it?  Just don't make sense to me.   Since modifying the Craftsman and seeing how soooo much better it is, I'm even more bewildered.

Maybe too much of a good thing.  With SS machine performance like that, they might not sell as many dual stage machines.  Who knows? 

trouts2, excellent points:
- You're probably right on the mystery hole on my machine. Mine does not have electric start, but it was an option. That must be what the hole's for, thanks.

- Tachs: I'll admit I'm not quite sure what the connector that you're talking about is for. But my Tiny Tach type device has 2 wires, one that you ground to the engine, and a wire that you wrap around the spark plug wire. You reminded me of something I'd been thinking about before, along the lines of what you described. Perhaps I could wrap another wire around the plug wire, and run that out to somewhere accessible. Then, to check the RPM's, I might be able to wrap the tach wire around *that* one. I don't know if that would work, however, since the tach would not actually be wrapped around the plug wire.

- Definitions: The dangerous verb would be to over-boratify. Something along the lines of "I boratified my machine to 6000 and I loved it. So I decided to try for 9000, and over-boratified it. Now I have a hole in the block" Kids, boratifying is done by trained professionals in a controlled environment, and should not be attempted without adult supervision. boratifying involves risk, past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results; may cause dry mouth, sweaty palms, envious neighbors, and childlike glee as the snow flies further than it ever has before. Consult a medical professional if symptoms persist more than 4 hours.

borat, that's a good question. Realistically, the higher RPM's will increase the wear on the engine (higher inertial loads), add to vibration, possibly start to take their toll on motor mounts, cause more wear on the belt as it engages, use more gas, more noise, etc. My manual makes note that the brake must be adjusted to stop the paddles within 5 seconds or something. The higher speeds would increase the time it takes for everything to stop. These are at least some of the "theoretical" drawbacks, I couldn't say whether any of them are actually significant (eg- maybe the lifespan of the engine goes from 800 hours to 700 hours, and no one will ever care). And I'm willing to replace a belt more often if it means much better performance, gas usage is very small anyhow, etc, so many of us might be OK with those tradeoffs. But then again the people here tend to be more of  "enthusiasts" vs the general public.

It's certainly an interesting question as to whether they avoided adding a throttle to try and stay away from cannibalizing 2-stage sales. One argument could be that an appeal of a SS is its simplicity and lack of controls. So it's friendly to use. Do these 2 things to start it, then just squeeze this handle. Less intimidating than the multiple levers and handles on my 2-stage, I suppose. Add a throttle, and you start to get away from that slightly. You'd have to set the throttle such that the default was a normal snow-blowing speed, and you could also squeeze it to rev even faster. You couldn't do it like a chainsaw, where no throttle input means very little happens.

Actually, as I type this, I think I saw someone make mention of an old (60's-70's?) machine their family owned which had kind of an "extra power" button or lever. You used that, and you'd get a little more out of the engine. It might have been on a SS, I don't recall. So perhaps some company did try something along those lines?

>>>Perhaps I could wrap another wire around the plug wire, and run that out to somewhere accessible.

   That's it.  I got lengths of hookup wire 6 feet long.   One end of that wire wrapped around the plug.  The other end ran up the handlebars.    A simllar wire was run from ground to the handlebars.   The tack wires got the mating connectors.  The tach could be detached and moved from machine to machine.  The tach did not get mounted perminantly.  Each time it was just put on the machine dash, plugged in and taped down.   Four machines were setup that way so one tach could be moved around.  I had a few tachs and some machines got "perminant" mounts and others connect wires only. I did not like leaving the tach out all winter. 

     Vanilla hookup wire is not shielded and engines can generate electrical noise of many frequencies that could interfere with the plug signals.   I also tried some Belden shielded signal wire which was very small like 20 but it did not improve response time. 

     What you need is a nice warm afternoon, open up the SS and install the wire.  Give the wire around the plug 4-5 tight wraps and electrical tape over that.  Then run it up the handlebars.   The harder part is planting the gauge where it will stay, not vibrate off and be easily removable.  One possibility is to get some thin aluminum plate about the size of the gauge and form it to an L  with foot of the L part just larger than the thickness of the gauge.  Drill a hole in the L foot and another through the handlebars at the side.  Bolt on the L and epoxy velcro on the tall section of the L and the back of the gauge. 

I put a Tach lead on my Toro  machine as well while I had the cover off.  Way too much work removing the cover to not do it.  I didn't leave a wire on the Craftsman or MTD because it's not all that important once the lower rpm is set.  It's not much more than an idle on those two.  On the Toro however, being set at a fixed rpm is where the machine works.  Hence the necessity to ensure it's set right.   I made  a couple wraps around the spark plug lead then used a small tie wrap to keep it there.   See pic below.  No sure why the picture is so big.  I resized it to 400 x400????

 Took the picture out.  It was screwing up Trout's post.

One thing that I wanted to re-iterate is the point of ensuring the oil ratio is changed to deal with the added load on the engine.  I've always been a believer in using a bit more oil than less.   Two cycles are hard working engines and have scant amounts of lubrication running through them.  Despite the fact that lower oil to fuel ratios will work, you can rest assured that a bit more oil will enhance performance and durability.  Particularly when the engine is being run beyond the normal parameters of the engine's operation.  Not that I'm all that worried about the engine's durability.    Four thousand rpm, in my opinion is not much more than a lively idle for any decent two cycle engine. I believe the HSK850 is designed and built well enough to handle far more than the 4000 rpm lope of a snow blower.    

RedOctobyr wrote:

I think you hit the nail on the head there.  Mfrs. are always looking for ways to dumb down their products - saves them many phone calls/rma's from idiots trying to figure out how/when to operate throttles, etc.

The other issue is, I would guess, emissions regulations.  I think even OPE is regulated somewhat, and probably even more in the near future, and that is why throttles are locked on most new OPE.  The mfr. can reduce emissions significantly if they allow the engine to run at only one speed.  They can also maximize fuel efficiency for that one engine speed, and that helps out their emissions issues, too. 

This is very interesting discussion, something to break the snowless conundrum this winter.  I think in a way its good to stir up interest in the Tecumseh 2 stroke engines.  There are on the MTD, Craftsman, Murray machines that have been the underdog in the SS market.  This would definitely bring up prices on the used market.  It would be interesting how these free revving 2 stroke engines when mated to a modern SS design such as the Toro would perform.

By the way, I'm looking into getting one of these Tecumseh powered machines.  It's hard not to be in acquisition mode when hanging around here.

longboat wrote:
Good point. OPE is definitely regulated already, and has been for probably ~10 years, hence no mixture screw adjustments on most carbs nowadays. God forbid you are able to adjust your machine so it runs right

And I'd forgotten about another throttle->no throttle scenario. Mowers from the 80's, let's say, had throttles, at least many of the 3.5hp Briggs-powered ones I remember. But my Craftsman walk-behind, which is probably about 15 years old, has no throttle or choke, just a primer button. My Lawn Boy was the same way (well, I think maybe it had a two position control tucked away down by the air filter, but I always ran at the faster position). I don't know if good machines have throttles now; I want to say many do not.

I guess we should be glad our 2-stage snowblowers still have throttles. Enjoy that while it lasts.

Around these parts, SS machines are a rarity. 

Last year and this year, I was/am vigilantly watching ads for used SS machines on Kijiji.  Only four machines were listed last year.  One was a Toro CCR2000/3000, can't remember which, nonetheless, the woman selling it was asking a ridiculous price so I passed on it and bought an brand new Toro 221 QE for only a hundred or so more than what she was asking.   There was a Honda HS35 in great shape for sale for a reasonable  price but the four stroke engine put me off.   The other two I bought.

This year there are thirty or forty dual stage machines (mostly Craftsman/MTD/AYP) products listed.  Occasionally, you'll see a nice old Ariens or Toro  dual stage but that's infrequent.  Around here, SS machines simply aren't appreciated.  Initially, I didn't even know SS machines existed up until about five years ago (when I joined this forum).  Nonetheless, after becoming aware of their existence, I had the same view of them as being inadequate for our conditions.  I had never seen one in action so I didn't know any better.  Even when I picked up the old Craftsman, I was far from impressed with it's performance.  I'd rate it at about 10% better than a shovel.  It was truly lame but I knew there was potential in the two cycle engine and for the price, if  it blew up, so be it.  I was buying it just to experiment with anyway. 

After a bit of work fixing the engine mount, over-riding the governor and putting on a new belt, it's been doing yeoman service since.   It sees more work than any other machine I have for several reasons.  First of all, it's much more fun to use, works great, handles all but the worst storms and lastly, I want to see how long it will hold up being run well beyond the machine's stock settings.  I'm certain that it has at least ten to fifteen hours  hard labour on  it by now.  Time will tell but so far, I couldn't ask for more.  

SS's are definitely sold around here. But I see people using 2-stages much more often, I'd say. Kind of like you, my only real exposure to a SS was my neighbor, who has/had an older Toro, I think it was. That, unfortunately, didn't make a great case for getting one :) I'd see him out there slogging along with it, trying to clear his fairly long driveway. It definitely had more trouble with the EOD. But it was his only machine, so it was being used in storms where it was kind of outmatched. Plus I'm sure it wasn't revved up. So it didn't give a great impression of them. I'm sure it was nice for the lighter storms, at least.

He got an older Ariens 2-stage last year. I don't know whether he still has the SS, or how he likes the 2-stage by comparison. But with the heavy storms we got last year, I'd expect he was liking the extra grunt of the 2-stage, especially for EOD piles.

Borat,

   It seems that part of the reason an SS works for you is your area.   Your driveway seems pretty flat and the shape good for doing long runs tossing straight ahead which for you ends up off your driveway.   Here doing diagonals is required for straight ahead clearing.  The height of snow I can toss right or left drops off very quickly with the SS so limiting.   The driveway surface is in bad shape, lots of mounds and cullies and the tar surface lower than it should be exposing the tops of rocks the rest of which are embedded solidly in the tar.  That makes for SS bounce and chatter which degrade performance.   A dual stage glides better over the surface but many places where the impellers scrape surface.  A number of the pictures and videos you've posted looked like the snow was pretty good for tossing.  Here the snow is usually usually wettish and not so great for tossing often.  When it's super cold it's usually ok though.  You being up there further north makes me think you might average more storms with good conditions. 

    My first SS was a Toro vane type.  It was good at throwing straight ahead.  It tossed a low wide stream about 15 feet making it's own blizzard in front of itself and nice for light snows 3-4 inches.   It could not do much with EOD.  That got dumped for a Powerlite which was a great improvement and I've had one around eversince. 

     I'm thinking of booting the 3650.  It's in excelelnt condition and can probably take a 1000-1500 boot ok.  It would be done already if it wasn't for the covers.  But maybe a string can be snuck in with just the bottom cover off.  I'll have to check.

RedOctobyr,

      Murray made a Craftsman model 6.5hp OHV with no throttle.  The neighbor brought over his non-starter this fall and it caught me off guard.  MTD puts out some new models with no throttle.  I think one of the low end Ariens models is no-throttle.

You're right Trouts.  Our snow is most often dry and fairly light.  Sometimes, if it's blown in on a blizzard, it gets finely packed and much more dense.   That's a once or twice a year occurrence.  Sometimes we get heavy amounts that is fairly wet and lots of it.  When that happens, it's the Simplicity's time to come out.  More often than not, the SS machines get the job done. 

Even when powered up, the Craftsman can choke on wet slushy snow.  Happened earlier this year.  We got about five inches of slush and the Craftsman was having trouble with it if I tried to feed it full width passes.  I cut it back to half to 2/3rds width or so and it moved it nicely.  I should have pulled out the Toro to test it on the same stuff to see how it would have fared.  Might have done better due to a superior paddle system but maybe not considering the power advantage of the Craftsman.