Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

Finally got some snow here so I took out most of the fleet to have some fun and put the machines to use.   Beautiful weather.  Crisp, clear with a bit of a breeze but not too bad.   First up is the Craftsman SS then the Toro 221 and finally the Simplicity.  Not too much snow maybe 5 or 6 inches but nice consistency. Fine, fairly dense and dry.  Here's a link to the video:

http://youtu.be/p7U9Jk8s8VM?hd=1

Nice weather.  You have a peaceful neighborhood and the beautiful landscape.  Lots of open space between the houses.

I'm surprised how well the modified Craftsman performed.  It seems to throw the snow pretty well.  It sounds loud and tense but the engine doesn't seem strained by the load at all.

In comparison, your Toro 221QE sounds so quiet and relaxed, almost like a 4 stroke.  I would be interested to see how a modified 221 perform.  Any plans to "Boratify" it?

Not much to say about the Simplicity 2 stage except this amount of snow doesn't allow the machine to show its prowess.  20" EOD pile and long straight runs in deep snow would be the perfect setting for this machine.

Link above doesn't work.  Try this one.

http://youtu.be/p7U9Jk8s8VM?hd=1

Thanks for the compliments. 

Yeah, we're a bit isolated up here in the north but I wouldn't trade it for the world.  I love the bush and I also enjoy winter.  I look forward to big dumps of snow!

Actually, to me, while operating the machines, the Craftsman seems easier on the ears even at higher rpms.  Not sure why.  Maybe it's just the tone.  I ran the Craftsman with no hearing protection and wasn't annoyed by it.  When I started using the Toro, I was immediately stimulated to get the hearing protection.  I think it's the big empty plastic housing that amplifies the engine noise or at least creates a sound that irritates me.  Maybe it's just the mono-tone.  Not really sure.  

That old Craftsman really does the job despite the fact that there's not much rubber left on the paddles.   It's working on sheer velocity.   Without a doubt, it's the most fun machine to use.  

The Toro's R-tek engine doesn't lend itself to governor over-ride as nicely as the Tecumseh engine does.  Anything with a vane type governor will be more work to modify and to be honest, I think a modified Tecumseh engine will live longer than a modified R-tek.  Reason being that as far as I can tell, the Tecumseh HSK850 two cycle engine has a solid big end and big end bearings on the connecting rod.  Thus eliminating the split connecting rod and individual needle bearing pack found on the R-tek.   In addition to the connecting rod/bearings advantage, the Tecumseh also has a one piece crank.  Which is unusual for two cycle engines without split connecting rods.   The crank is shaped in such a way to allow for the bearing/connecting rod to be slipped over one end of the crank and seated on the journal.  What keeps it there is beyond me.  I suspect it has a thrust washer that is pressed between the connecting rod big end and the crank bearing.  When the crank is fit into the crank case, everything is held together by the crank case housing.  At least that's my assumption.  Nonetheless, If I were to modify the Toro, it would be done by seeing if I can put a Tecumseh engine in it.  That would be the best way to go providing the fit was good. 

The only reason I pulled out the Simplicity was just to run the engine.  It hasn't been fired up in quite a while and that's the first time this year actually doing some work.   I think the gas that's in there is from mid November.  Nonetheless, as you could see, one pull and it came to life and ran nice and smooth.   On the rare occasions we see large accumulations, the Simplicity is THE tool for the job.  However, 95% of the time, the SS machines are first out and the Craftsman is my usual first choice. 

I also have the 2005 Tecumseh powered MTD sitting on my deck that hasn't done anything yet this year.  That machine is like brand new.  Nice fresh engine in it for back up if the Craftsman motor blows.

How did you manage to get a hyper link to work?             

 

To get the link to work, you have to go back and edit the link the second time.  You will see the link has "javascriptvoid", this will just launch a blank window.  Just replace this "javascript" junk with the youtube link.  Hope that helps.

Anyways, I see the moderator already has corrected the link.

What is the model number of the Craftsman?  The one you have seems to be the older and better made ones.  Seems like a robust machine to experiment on.

I'm not sure I would do it on the Toro though, unless I can get my hands on one with a blown engine cheap.  The design seems to be "optimized" and modifications outside of its design intent would cause failures.

The Craftsman is a 1997 model 5/21.  The model no. on the label is C950-C9505-1.  Made in the USA (by Murray) for the Canadian market. 

Not sure I'd say it's all that much more robust.  When I bought it a year ago, it was pretty much limp dicked and ate a belt within the first hour of use.   I opened it up and found a severely cracked engine mount bracket.  I repaired it with a much stiffer mount and put on an new belt.  I also took a good look at the engine, pulled the exhaust to inspect the bore/piston, pulled and cleaned the carb.  Compression was at factory spec.  Added the string to the governor and   the thing's been great ever since.  It's a lot of snow blower for less than $100.00.  Not sure but I think I got it for $75.00. 

Nice Video.  I really like the Craftsman.  It's sounds like it likes to work.   And enjoys the RPM.  The Toro's always sound a little lugged down to me.  I've got the governor control hooked up
my Old CCR2000.  Going to crank it up a little more next storm we get.  Get snow, light but dense.

Thanks Borat, good comparison of the 3 machines (even if you discount  the performance of the Craftsman somewhat for your mod) and what a beautiful sunset. Shows what a properly maintained & operated machine can do. I bet you just gave a good shove to  ss machine sales now that people have seen what they can do in the right hands. On the other hand, dang! They may all think twice before dumping their old machines!

Thanks for the compliments folks. 


That was actually sunrise and, believe it or not, I shot the video with our Ipad.   I made a special bracket to sit the Ipad in then used a universal camera mount/clamp to hold the bracket.  I then made a coupler to attach the camera clamp to a tripod.    It's much easier to use than my camera and takes HD video.   The viewfinder is the size of the Ipad so it's real easy to see what I'm getting in the frame.  

Anyone planning on obtaining/modifying an old Tecumseh powered MTD/Craftsman/Murray etc. should beef up the engine mount in order to deal with the additional power.   I'm not sure if the mount on my machine cracked due to a bad weld or from vibration fatigue or a combination of both.   Due to the otherwise good condition of the machine, (sans rubber on the paddles),  and the excellent health of the engine, I'm suspecting a poor weld.   Regardless of the cause, with the engine being cranked up to 6000-6500 rpm, I'm estimating that horsepower is probably doubled and could be pushing 10 to 12 h.p. at 6500 rpm.   I cannot verify the actual power output but I do know that when I open the throttle, the performance is more than double that of the stock rpm setting.   With that kind of power,  I can easily see possible flexing of the stock engine mount.  It's a pretty flimsy piece thin sheet metal and it wouldn't take too much  deformation to put the pulleys out of alignment and cause excessive belt wear or throw the belt.   I think the only reason my machine isn't eating belts is due to the rigid motor mount I added. 

Nonetheless, the more I use the Craftsman, the more confidence I have in it's durability.   My experience with two cycle engines leads me to believe that the Tecumseh engine isn't being excessively stressed.   The additional rpm isn't all that much for a well designed two cycle engine and personally, I'm very much impressed with the Tecumseh HSK 850 series engines.  They're well designed and apparently well built.   The engine in the Craftsman was built in 1995 and it runs very well despite it's years.  The machine itself was manufactured in 1997 so the machine has 15 years on it and isn't showing any signs of slowing down.  I'm impressed with that. 

Although I don't have extensive experience with either the R-tek or the Tecumseh two cycle engines, from what I've seen by comparing both engine designs, I'd lean toward a Tecumseh engine if I were re-powering a single stage machine.  Tecumseh HSK850s are pretty scarce to buy new and are quite expensive (so are R-tek engines).  I'd be watching CL or Kijiji for an opportunity at a fraction of the cost of a new engine.

If anyone does acquire an used SS machine and hops it up, let us know how it goes.


 

Nice video borat! I liked seeing what the Craftsman can do.

How are the paddles on that? I don't know the exact gap, but as I recall, I have a decent gap between my paddles and the thrower housing. Unfortunately, the Ariens paddles seem rather expensive (I think I was seeing ~$35, and it seemed like that was for *1* paddle). And they're molded into this funky shape, they're not simply flat pieces of rubber. I saw a video of how to shift your Toro paddles in their mounts to get some more life out of them. I can't do that. I wish the whole rotating paddle assembly was in a slot so that as they wore you could shift them closer to the housing.

It's interesting you mention the vibration issue. I've noticed that my little HSK600 must be trying to vibrate pretty hard. You don't see the engine moving (though I could sure feel it in the handles when I tried blowing without gloves). But when I engage the paddles, the idler pulley is shaking back & forth rather violently. Everything that can be tightened is snug. I think it's the pivot for the idler that's helping to allow the movement, but I wasn't going to try and tear it apart further to check that. Just snugged everything down as best I could and left it. As the engine gets larger (and even higher RPM's; I'm only at 4600) I'd imagine the vibration issues must become more significant. It would be funny if your cranked-up engine was putting out near 10 hp; you'd have a little machine with more power than my "big" 2-stage I'd expect power won't scale up linearly with RPM, the engine presumably runs into some breathing issues as the revs climb, so I'd guess torque may drop off somewhat. But it's still going to be a lot more than stock.

Do you know of other machines that use the HSK850? The Ariens SS522 uses it, not sure what else. Do the Toro CCR2000 & CCR3000 use Suzuki engines? I know those machines seem to have a good reputation.

Pretty much all the MTD/AYP/Murray/Craftsman/Yard Machines etc. used the Tecumseh two cycle engine.   I've got a 2005 MTD that I picked up used/cheap just for the engine.  The whole machine is like new.  It's got a Tecumseh two cycle HSK850 in it.  They're 139 cc engines and certainly capable of making much more than the rated 5  h.p.  

I have a 140 cc Suzuki two cycle powered lawn mower that I cranked up to 6500 rpm.  I found a formula to calculate horse power for two cycle engines.  It took displacement, compression, rpms etc. into account and calculated the power output a various rpms.  The stock engine was rated at 4.5 h.p. at 2800 rpm.  When spun up to 6500 rpm, the calculations revealed close to 12 h.p.   So, estimating close to 10 h.p. for a similar engine running at the same speed isn't to hard to believe.    Torque is another matter.   If kept in the power band, a two cycle will produce some serious torque.  However, once the torque demand exceeds the engine's ability to produce it, a two cycle engine's torque output will drop off quickly.  Unlike a four stroke that will slow down a bit and start to bark but keep making respectable torque until the load becomes too excessive.  When that happens, the engine will just stall. 

Borat,

    Discounting power differences how would you rate the throughput and distance of the two SS's?  Going by the video it seems the 221 is about the same as the Craftsman or slightly less potent at least on distance but it's hood was at a lower angle.

I'd say the Craftsman throws the same amount of snow about 20% further when cranked up.  If used at stock rpms, it would be about 75% less than the Toro.   The Craftsman gives a lot away because there's not a lot of rubber left on the paddles.   If it had fresh rubber, it would be much better.  I kind of like it the way it is.  The Toro pulls too hard going down hill and can be a handful to hold back if the driveway is even a bit slippery.  With the worn  paddles, the Craftsman is easy to control, up and down the hill and moves snow good enough.  Hard machine to beat for the amount I paid for it.    

Borat - Check out this one for sale down here....You scored BIG time!

Snow Thrower - $325 (Lexington)

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Date: 2012-01-26, 9:37AM EST
Reply to: sale-n5ahu-2813942352@craigslist.org ^{[Errors when replying to ads?]}

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PostingID: 2813942352

If it's as lame as the machine I bought, it's going to be tough to sell. 

I remember the guy I bought mine from didn't want to give me a display of the machine's ability.  Remember, it was in stock condition with a cracked engine mount and questionable belt.   I got the guy to fire it up.  Started and ran well but shook quite a bit.  I asked him if I could try moving some snow with it.  He said "Too late.  I already did the driveway."  So I said "How about we try the snow  bank?  It's fresh snow right?"  He paused, looked at me for a while then pushed the machine into the snow.  It was truly laughable.  I swear that machine was barely throwing good snow eight feet.   I looked at him in a curious way and said "How much are you asking for it?  He said $125.00.  I offered him $75.00 and he jumped on it.  

I'd say the price I paid was pretty good if you consider what a Tecumseh HSK850 engine alone costs.  

I''d like the ex-owner to see how it works now.   Limp Dick Willy turned into Jack the Bear by adding a piece of string!

Nice video.  Nice machines.  Nice neighborhood.  Are those Sasquatch tracks I see on your neighbor's lawn across the street?

manjestic wrote:
I wish they were sasquatch tracks. 

Unfortunately, they're the tracks of the "world's tallest rat".  The white tail deer.  The deer population has gone right out of control.  Their numbers are so high that they've achieved "vermin" status.   The upside is that the wolves are on the rebound and their numbers are increasing as well.  Once the wolf/deer numbers reach a balance, the deer numbers will come down.   In addition to that, after 500+ auto/deer collisions annually within City limits,  the municipality has also implemented necessary control methods to assist in getting the deer numbers down. 

You cannot imagine how much damage and disease high deer concentrations can cause.   We never had ticks in our area when the deer numbers were reasonable.  Now, you'll be infested with them if you take even a brief a walk into the woods any time after April.  Lyme disease is also on the rise due to deer ticks becoming more common.    

Here's a picture of a wolf "getting it done" in a neighbour's back yard, not too far from where I live.

Borat,

   What’s the paddle shape on the Craftsman?  I can’t get an exploded view for that model.  Is it flat right under the chute or the smooth curve type of paddle?

    What are you tossing there?   Most of the time the EOD big or small here is very difficult for any machine to toss.  I don't think any Toro 2000 or 2450 I've had would do as well by quite a bit. 

trouts2 wrote:
Yes.  Flat across the center with curved edges fastened with rivets.  In case you're interested, I'm using a $7.00 belt that I bought from NAPA rather than the $53.00 belt that Sears sells. 

Yes that's the EOD that was piled abough 18 to 20" high.  Lots of slush mixed with normal snow.  As you can see, I was leaning into it pretty good to keep forward momentum. 

It's amazing what doubling the horsepower will do for a machine's performance. 


Here's a pic:

   Thanks Borat.   The flat type opens up MTD models which use the HSK850.. 

    It's interesting that the 221 and Craftsman seem to be doing a similar job and possibly the 221 slightly less.  It would be nice to know just how much of a torque difference there is between the two.  The snow you're clearing seems to be fairly easy but neither machine sagging.  I did not hear any sag when you're doing shorter runs at the top of the drive with the Craftsman.  I would not expect that to happen for the EOD like in the picture I posted above but it looks like it's haveing a pretty easy time of thing there also.

At full throttle, it takes quite a bit to slow the Craftsman down.   As I've been saying all along, I'm thoroughly impressed with the machine and in particular the HSK850.  If the engine can sustain that kind of performance, and I'm confident it will, I'll be even more impressed.    The Craftsman's controls are not as nice as those on the Toro but other than that, it's more than a match for the 221.   Head to head, the Craftsman will definitely out work and out throw the Toro.  Now, if I were to jack up the Toro to even 4500 rpm, things would be closer.  However, at those speeds, the Toro  has far too much pull going down hill.   Even at the 4100 rpm setting it's at now, it takes some effort to hold it back.  Not a good thing on a slippery downhill grade.

Anyone looking for a good SS machine would do well with a cheap Craftsman/Murray and a piece of string.  

 

borat wrote:
I know how you feel.  Same here.  This was from 2005 on a pond in my backyard.  There are actually 13 of them total, some outside of the shot.  (sorry this is way off topic).

borat wrote:
Heh, words to live by

How do you replace the paddles on the Craftsman if they're riveted on? Do you have to grind/drill the heads off?

I just checked mine, it was snug fitting the tip of my finger between the paddle and the housing. I don't know how much of a gap is typical or acceptable. But given the apparent price of my paddles, I'm not replacing them anytime soon :)

borat and manjestic, you guys have some scenic neighborhoods, nice shots. We just got a whole pile of rain today, and no snow, at the end of January. This is just weird (the machines are feeling neglected). But at least it came in as rain, and didn't leave a big coating of ice on everything (a few degrees lower and this would have been a mess).

I assume the only way the rubber is coming off is by drilling out or grinding off the rivets.  Never done it and don't look forward to doing it either.  By the size of the rivets, replacing the rubber will require a much larger riveter than what I own.   Probably have to use short bolts, locking nuts and locktite to replace the rubber.  The paddles on the MTD machine I have looks pretty much the same.  I could pull the whole assembly off of that machine and put it on the Craftsman if and when it's required and rebuild the Craftsman rotor at my leisure.  Don't see that happening any time soon. 

Redoct: 

What machine did you say you have?  Was it a Toro 318?   No experience with them but being a Toro, it should be a well designed and useful piece.

I've also got a little gas powered Toro Power Shovel that pretty neat.  Looks close to being new.  Got it cheap too.  Needed about twenty minutes work to get it running like a champ.  It's a fun little machine too that hasn't seen any work yet this year either.  I used to use the power shovel on the deck but I put the MTD SS machine on there and neither have been required yet.  Too many machines too little snow.......

Mine is an Ariens SS322. I wish it was the SS522 variant with the larger HSK850, but oh well. Ariens doesn't seem as well known for their SS machines as Toro is, but hopefully Ariens' are still good.

The Power Shovel, is that the one that has fixed vanes to always blow forward & to the right, or whatever? I was impressed with my little Toro Powercurve 1800 electric, it did surprisingly well on deck duty, even with deep, heavy storms last winter. And it was very compact, and only about 25 lbs (as light as a 2-stroke SS is, they're still a lot bigger & heavier than an electric). My parents have it now, but there hasn't been any snow for them to try it on.

Ariens are famous for snow removal equipment but not so much for the SS machines.  At least not around here.  Personally, I've never seen an Ariens SS machine. 

The power shovel throws snow forward only.  Looks like an upright vacuum cleaner.  No side to side deflection.  However, for a little machine, it's fairly impressive.  Next snow, I'll try to do a video of the power shovel in action.  Actually, if you check Youtube, you'll probably find some examples.   Here's a pic:

RedOctobyr wrote:

Here ya go Red....note that it was only used once!!! How lucky can you get.

PostingID: 2818536415

Thanks for the info Frank I'll stick with mine for the moment, I can't beat the money I have into mine (free + a belt and carb kit, so ~$25 total). But I'll see how mine does if we ever get any deeper snow. If it's underpowered (rather likely), I'll probably try to boratify it, and/or keep an eye out for something inexpensive and more powerful.

Plus I think I'd need to be able to justify shopping for a different machine  I have my new-to-me 2-stage, my old 2-stage (waiting for some snow & demand on CL before listing it), and my new-to-me SS. If I announced I was shopping for *another* one already, with no real runtime on the "new" ones, I might have some 'splaining to do