Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

For single stage users, can these be used on end of driveway hard chunks? I hear you can break it up first with a shovel but seems there would still be hard chunks. Would it beat up the machine? I live in New England and because of several different factors I have to compromise and the single stage Toro 621 would be my best compromise right now. I have a driveway that is a little over 2 cars long and do a run of about 10 yards by the mailbox all EOD and clear out an area going to the deck in back on one side and for the oil man on the other that would both be over grass one about 10 yards long and the other about 15 yards long. Have you ever done EOD with one of these.

It can be done but it will take much more effort as it is not the right tool for that job (in most circumstances). Chopping up the big chunks and knocking down huge EOD build-up is going to be your biggest challenge. I've got a 9 HP 2-stage and have to go very slow sometimes because of the cement type nature of the slop left behind by the plow truck. You can get away with it on the smaller storms but you'll struggle with any of the bigger stroms we typically get in the middle of winter. You may want to adopt a policy of clearing your areas (at least the EOD) several times throughout a major storm to minimize the build-up.

My Toro 2450 does it here in MA.  I just use the push pull method and have never had a problem. My Honda or Ariens 2 stage does it easier but on the days that I use the SS I have had no problems with large amounts of EOD.

My Toro 421 has done a good job for me for one season, but....

EOD snow is definitely a challenge. The really hard packed stuff works the machine, but it does handle it. I haven't used it on ice or hard frozen chunks and I think that might be asking a little too much.

I still have my 36 year old 2 stage that I use for the rare occasion when I have the chunky frozen stuff.

A bigger question would be the grassy areas you have.

My single stage doesn't do well on grass at all.

No fault of the particular machine, just part of the design of a single stage snow thrower.

I used to have one of those MTD single stages.  One trick  learned for grass and deep snow is to push down on the handle to cause the front end to ride up.  They are light enough to skim over the top and just take a little bit.  Then you can back up and go over again.  It might take 2 or 3 layers, but if you keep skimming down you should be fine.  Same would work for grass.  Just don't go all the way down to the grass.

The grass is a difficult surface for a single stage - they tend to like nice flat paved surfaces the best.

I have used a John Deere TRS21 5hp two cycle single stage snowblower for the last 15 years for all my snow removal. I live 25 miles south of Minneapolis. I clear 20x35 feet of asphalt driveway, 400 sqft of cement sidewalk and a 4 foot wide by 70 foot path over grass. We also have the mailboxes on our side of the street. Once the snow banks on our side of the street are 2 feet high the city plows do not plow to the curb for fear of damaging the mailboxes. So we end up with 70x5 feet of EOD. The TRS21 handles all of it. Sometimes I have to push it through but most of the time I tip the TRS21 forward and let it do the work. The grass path requires pushing since the auger chews up the grass if tipped forward. When the snow is heavy EOD the TRS21 needs to take partial passes in order to maintain throwing height and distance.

My jacked up Craftsman does a pretty good job on EOD under most circumstances.  However, trying to tackle a frozen pile of snow/ice with it will be a challenge.  Rubber paddles don't quite have the chipping/grinding ability of steel augers.   If you hack the EOD down to small enough pieces, the SS machine with throw it alright.  Otherwise it will certainly be a chore.

Dosnt seem like much a  compromise you are asking a SS machine to do 2 out of 3 things that dosnt do the best. It can handle EOD pretty good if you get it right away with in reason. By going sideways on it taking bites instead of wasting time trying to blast a full bucket straight through to the street if have a normal one car drive.  It takes some of your muscle to do that and add that your doing 30 feet of street also. Compromise going away pretty fast. Doing the grass just as much or more muscle trying not to tear up the grass too much. A snow scoop push in and pull back a chunk works way easier on a grass path. No lifting and can dump it on hard surface and blown it with your machine would be a compromise

I have a Toro 418 it had a hard time handling the hard chunks at the EOD so I had to break out the 2 stager, although the 621 is a bit larger and powerful so it might do a little better.  If you keep up with the snow and don't let if freeze overnight you should be okay.  I understand you need to make a compromise and if your situation is purchasing new then there are 2 stages available in the same price range (i.e.; Snow-Tek 920404).  I would suggest looking at a 2 stage in the same price range, you wouldn't want buyers remorse when your using a SS when you could've bought a 2 stage for the same price.

if you live in an area that gets a lot of snow and e.o.d. accumulations are an issue, a two stage is likely your best bet.  Better to have a machine that can do the most difficult job effectively.   I used nothing but two stage machines for going on 25 years.  Always got the job done but I also did a lot of shoveling of too.  Small accumulations of snow just isn't worth hauling out the big two stages machine.  A rink shovel or SS machine is often a better choice.

First off, it's always easier to spend someone else's money, but.....

Get both a single stage and a two stage.

Buy them used and it shouldn't break the bank. Take your time and maybe just buy one now and wait for a deal on the other one. It's possible you might find that whatever unit you buy now will do the job for you.

Two drawbacks I think of other than the expenditure:

1. Storage for two machines.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. There's a good chance you will end up with both a four cycle engine and a two cycle engine so you will need two gas cans.

I would get a 21" single stage, the most capable one with decent power and best ergonomics you can afford.  The Toro 621 is an awesome machine, despite people's reservation about Chinese engines.  Toro will stand behind their products and you won't find Toro badging someone else's snowblowers.  A Toro is a Toro and nothing else. 

A snowblower is a long term use equipment so make sure you get something you are happy with and never have remorse that you should spend more.  These are more useful than most people think.  EOD can be tough on them, break them down with a spade to the consistency that a single stage can ingest,  just make sure you don't try to throw chunks of frozen sheet ice, they will and bend the auger.  Plus, this projectile is very dangerous to people and property.  You hear and know when you are beating up the machine too hard with the chunks.  For 2 years, I've used a tiny Toro Powerlite and a spade on a double car wide x 50 feet driveway, this took quite a while.  Then I got a Honda HS621 and this was perfect size for most applications.  With a good spade and the HS621, EOD was no problem, smart technique and patience is key.  Also getting out there frequently and dealing with the EOD so they stay manageable and doesn't overwhelm the machine or the operator.

Spend $50 and get a good snow scoop to try on the EOD.  Works well for me.  I like the scoops with the ergonomic handles, like this one: http://www.acecalumet.com/snowtool.html

You should be able to find them at your local hardware store - I've even seen them at my local WallyWorld.

Maybe this might help put things in perspective...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI-AFIA56yo&feature=related

That video shows how difficult the first pass into the EOD can be for both SS and 2 stage machines. They should have done one more pass showing how both perform when taking a smaller bite - like 1/2 to 3/4 of the bucket width. That would have tightened up the gap a bit between the two machines. You can't beat a 2 stage for EOD slop but the SS shows that it can tackle the job but at a much slower pace and with a lot more effort. The guy working the SS machine could have done a better job by slowing down a bit and allowing the paddles to process the snow. Also, using a shovel to knock down/chop up the pile would have made things a lot easier for him as well - that's how it's done in the real world.

That video is not an apples to apples comparison.  Although Ariens pointed out both machines can be bought for $600 machines, and they insists it's a fair comparison.  Geez, a Mini Cooper wouldn't fare too well carrying a sofa as compared to a Ford F150, even if they were the same price.  The single stage is out of its elements in deep snow compared to the 2 stage snowblower.  And that is all that video is about.  On the later part of the video, the male operator of the SS purposedly slowed down when the snow was 8 inches or less.  Hmm...  If he knew what he was doing and actually made an effort, he would have reached the end about the same time as the 2 stage.  I guess he was being thoughtful not to blast the female operator with snow in case he did catch up to her.  :)

Put that SS in an actual homeowner environment and things will look different.  Maneuverability, ease of use, and compact size are some of the things you appreciate when you're behind the handle bars.

I guess Ariens could have staged that comparison better.  There's so many things wrong with it, but for the uninformed prospective snowblower buyer, Ariens have made their point. 

croftwny wrote:
That's old hat. 

It's abundantly clear that it's an Arien's commercial and the guy on the SS machine is dogging it.   Not hardly a fair comparison. 

No one is saying that an SS machine will do what a two stage machine is capable of.  However, it will perform better than what that video indicates.   I have a Toro 221Q two stroke with the engine rpms properly set.  It will embarrass the SS machine in that video. 

    The video does not seem to be any big conspiracy.  It gives a fairly accurate portrayal of the difference between the two machines based on my experience with 2450’s and CCR2000’s. 

 

    The guy is struggling with the EOD and doing quite a bit of pushing once clear of the EOD.  On the sections where the snow is lower than the SS’s buck top he’s still doing quite a bit of pushing.  It’s much better than shoveling.  He got the job done and that would be enough for many people.  Many would describe that as “I have no problem”.  For others it would be too much effort. 

 

   Knee_Biter say he has “no problem with large amounts of EOD”.  He a bit north of me and on average gets more snow.  The 2450’s I’ve used have big problems handling EOD here requiring much more work than what the guy in the video is doing.  How can it be KB says it’s “no problem”?  Maybe for him that amount of work is a trivial issue.  For me I want the experience the women in the video is having, mostly guiding the machine along.

 

   Every storm here I start out with a single stage clearing out to the garage.  It’s no problem.  I’m fresh and some pushing there is ok.  But it gets old quickly when I use it for the rest of the area in bigger snow greater than 3-4 inches and especially the EOD. 

 

    If you don’t mind doing a lot of pushing and struggling an SS is fine.  They’re easy to get out and use, simpler maintenance, back up fast, and easy to store.  Putting up with a little effort to get the good points is worth it to many.  At least for me the price of new SS’s is off the map.  A better value to me would be a small or mid-level two stage.

   The initial post asked about chunks and described his clearing area. EOD chunks would be a big problem for an SS.  The driveway is pretty small so some effort there with an SS would not be so much of a big deal.  The EOD section would get old quick unless you don’t mind like KB.  The paths would be a problem also.  They would be somewhat ok when the ground is frozen as the machine would bounce along with uneven ground but for the beginning and end of winter you would be tearing up lawn. 

borat wrote:  x 2 Thats an infomercial like the guy that cant cook eggs or peel potatos he's a duefus unless he has this product. How many times do you blow from the street in. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. You could pull the SS out of the truck and be halfway done before you could unload a 2 stage. You can pull a SS right through a drift and start anywhere you want. Just as from the begining of time the right tool for the right job

FullThrottle wrote:
It is kind of funny the way the guy makes it look like he's struggling so hard to make the SS work the EOD slop. Very smart marketing as well using a woman to operate the SnoTek in order to show how easy it is to use and manipulate. Most women are scared of 2 stage machines (I know my sister is) so having a woman using that equipment kind of takes the edge off of that a bit.

FrankMA wrote:
True, but all she was doing is holding on the handles, wiggle up and down, wiggle left and right.  Basically using fast twitch muscles.  Let's see how well she fares negotiating turns near obstacles, shifting gears to match snow conditions, and reversing, or even setting the scraper bar height.  :)  Or even finding a place to park in a crowded garage.  That's the part of owning a 2 stage machine that isn't shown.

The video is smart marketing, although deceptive and skewed.

Better yet, let's see how she looks after two hours wrestling with a big two stage machine.  I know that after cleaning a large snowfall, I have to change all of my clothes because they're usually soaked with sweat and I'm in pretty good shape.   Two stage machines certainly have their place.  However, from my experience a SS machine seems to see far more work than my large frame Simplicity.  

It's nice to have both and when you think of it, if you have the space, you should.  I think I paid $75.00 for that old Craftsman SS machine and it's an excellent little snow mover when the rpms are cranked up.

Tried to put in a hyper link but it doesn't work.  You'll have to cut and paste.

This is what $75.00 can do for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5SUqWz0j8w

People think that because you're using a piece of OPE that what you're doing is an easy task. They fail to realize that it just makes the arduous task a bit easier than it used to be before OPE. I'm in pretty good shape and can say first hand that if you're not able to bull around a 250 lb. machine for 2 - 3 hours at a time after a 24" snow storm, you better farm out your snow clearing duties to someone who is up to the task. I come in after clearing a typical mid-winter New England snowstorm and am soaked in sweat and beat down like a dog. A quick shower and 2 shots of brandy (not neccessarily in that order) and I'm about ready for the rack.

Ha, I'm glad I'm not the only one. My 2-stage sure beats shoveling, that's for sure! But I'll admit that I'd kind of had enough after clearing the driveway after a few of the storms last winter. Between wrestling it around at the end of a pass, or fighting with it to keep it going straight, it still takes something out of you. I'm hoping that the new blower, with a differential, will make it so I'm not fighting the machine as much.

borat, nice video! I'm still considering rigging up a throttle "override" like you did. But I want to see how my SS performs "stock" first. As long as I won't destroy the engine by revving it higher, then I don't have a problem doing it.

Yo Red:

If the engine is in any kind of decent condition, it should handle the revs.  Two cycle engines love to rev.  No valves, cams, springs or rockers to worry about. 

That engine of yours might be a bit tricky to over-ride the governor.  Vane type governors don't offer much resistance and will require a light touch.  The Tecumseh engines I have are equipped with mechanical governors which are easy to rig and use.  If you do manage to get yours rigged up, let us know how you do it. 

Your engine is 87 ccs right?   Do you know what the stock operating rpms are supposed to be?   I'd guess that it's probably around 4500 rpm or possibly more and likely rated for 3 h.p.   I'd estimate that if you spin it up to 6500 to 7000, the engine will put out closer to 5 h.p.  Nice little boost.  The difference will be noticeable.  Believe me.  That old Craftsman is pretty much limped dick running at 4000 rpm or less.  Totally different machine when the engine is spun up. 

I bought that machine back in January and it chewed up a belt shortly after buying it.  I took it in and opened it up to find a broken motor mount.  I fixed that and picked up a $7.00 belt at NAPA which was considerably cheaper than the $53.00 Sears wanted.   Many say that these cheaper belts won't hold up as well as the Craftsman belts.  Maybe so but, I ran the cheap belt all last year pretty hard and it's got a few hours on it this year already on an engine putting out close to double the power and much more speed.  It will be interesting to see how long it holds up.

We received about five or six inches of fairly light snow last night.  I did front and back driveways with the Craftsman.  That's pretty much the entire area that I need to be cleared and it's a fair bit.   Did it without a hitch.

  

My Toro 1028 is a gem to use and turns easily but it's still work doing the driveway in 1.5 hours and I am usually soaked either from sweating or blown snow or both.

It's fun to use but after a season I'm ready to put it away for another year.

Excellent memory & guesses, borat. It's 98cc, 3hp, the manual says 4300 RPM. I have the governor adjusted to 4600 RPM currently. You're correct, it has a vane-type governor. I'd thought about trying to find a way add a bit more tension to the governor spring, to raise the RPMs on demand.

It now occurs to me that I could sort of take the opposite approach. Mess with the governor to get it to, say, 6000 RPM. That way the max speed (the potentially damaging end of the spectrum) is still governed. Then add something to *lower* the speed on demand (that could potentially be simpler, since the idle stop would hopefully keep you from being able to go too low and stalling). One of my concerns with trying this is accidentally over-revving it. Either by being dumb, or having something like my cable get stuck, and winding it up to 10,000+ with no load. Might blow a connecting rod or something.

I'll try it in a storm or two first and see how it goes. Unfortunately, with the engine being completely buried under the big cover, you can't access any of this stuff without taking the machine apart. I can't even hook up a tachometer without opening it up. I guess I could have left a wire wrapped around the plug wire, and had it dangle out of the cover somewhere (so I could just alligator-clip the tach to that wire), but I didn't think of that at the time :) It does seem really weird to me to have the engine so inaccessible. Even just trying to do something like use starting fluid would be interesting, never mind simply pulling the spark plug to look at it. I never realized how much I take that for granted on 2-stages.

My 221Q has a small cover over the carb to make access easier.  The Craftsman has to have the entire top cover taken off which is bit of work.   Not something you want to do on a cold day.   When the belt blew back in January, I brought the machine into the basement where it's nice and warm and went completely over the machine including carb dis-assembly and cleaning.  Pulled the exhaust off to inspect cylinder condition and exhaust port/muffler for carbon.  Checked compression, fuel lines etc.  Fortunately, everything looked good other than the belt and broken motor mount.  


Motor mount repair.  The gray plate replaced the cracked mount which is part of the chassis and was welded to the handle upright.
I was lucky to have a piece of plate already bent to use as a mount gusset.  Just had to drill holes in it that matched holes already on the engine and handle upright and grind out the semi circle for the crank.
You can see the string attached to the governor lever.


Look just left and below of the string and you'll see the cracked motor mount.



1997 Craftsman SS.  Busy looking dash.  Note "throttle string".  I have to say, this machine is most fun to use when the rpms are cranked up.  The Toro 221 is a better machine all the way around but with fixed rpm, it's not nearly as interesting to use.   I usually grab this machine first because it's light, strong and fun.

Operating a 2 stage snowblower, especially larger ones above 30" wide, is a very physical work.  After using the machine for 2 hours, I can say that I'm exhausted while the beast still wants more.  But overall, operating any 2 stage snowblower requires a lot more skill and concentration than a SS.   It has much more power, heavier, more complex.  Any lapse of concentration not scanning the area in front and the snowblower might end up ingesting something solid that may cause damage to machine or property, or even injury.  Even backup the snowblower, you can pin yourself against a wall.  When tacking EOD, the snowblower naturally wants to climb and reverse cartwheel in front of you.  Most people who encounter this have to think about slowing down even more or manhandle it so that the bucket doesn't come up.

Some people are uncomfortable operating a 2 stage snowblower, and maybe more so with women.  Not trying to be a sexist, but I haven't seen even one woman operating a 2 stage in my area.  I've seen a few women operating a SS, but those are rare too.  So the video portraying a woman just holding on a 2 stage snowblower handles and following behind it with ease like a baby stroller through an empty parking lot just going straight is inaccurate.

It would be funny if someone could do a spoof of their video.  One that shows a small stature person operating a 36" snowblower, running across the pavement and catching the scraper bar on the cracks, and having the handle bars nailing the groin.   Also showing how a person clears and frozen ingested newspaper, changing shear pins in the dark, clearing a clog without getting their hands amputated.

I enjoy using the 2 stage but I never forget there is a lot more risks involved, and it is not as easy as it seems.

Got some snow here finally.  Not much maybe three inches, fine, heavy and a bit moist.  The stuff at the end of the driveway was a mixture of slush and snow.  Did the entire driveway with the old Craftsman SS then tackled the EOD which was maybe 18" high.  

The picture below is a screen grab from a video so you'll have to excuse the quality.  Nonetheless, it gives some idea of the distance that the Craftsman can throw fairly heavy snow when it's on the revs.