Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

I never realized that by explaining how the friction wheel drive on another thread would cause such feelings of inadequacy in one poster that he felt compelled to pretend I had personally attacked him, which was never my intention.  But now that this has come to be a subject worthy of discussion, let's explore the comparison.   Most snowblowers of the two stage variety use the very simple, easy to understand friction wheel drive to propel them.  Here then is the system explained so we all can begin with a clean slate. 

  The snowblower engine drive shaft will have a pully on it to drive a Vee belt that is attached at the other end to a 'Drive Plate'.  So long as the engine is running, the plate is spinning thanks to that belt.   The wheels or tracks of the snowblower are connected to the drive system through a rubber faced friction wheel that rides at right angle to that 'Drive Plate', and the shaft the 'rubber faced friction wheel' rides on is one the rubber wheel can slide along from one side to the other.  That sliding motion then positions the rubber tire like friction wheel on the 'Drive Plate' depending on where you place it.  This is done with the cable running from the notched speed change lever on the operators console of the machine.  When you, the operator, squeezes the handle that engages the drive you are lifting that engine driven 'Drive Plate' into contact with the rubber faced 'Friction Wheel' and if the rubber is in good condition, and properly adjusted , it makes contact with the drive plate and the snowblower will begin to move.  How fast or whether you move forward or reverse is dependent upon that speed control that usually has something like 6 forward speed noitches, and two reverse.  That cable running to the friction wheel will allow it to ride across the drive plate at the center, for low speed, closer to the edge for high speeds, and even on the other side of the drive plate's center to make the friction wheel spin the opposite direction.  This puts the machine in reverse.  This then is what plays the role of a transmission on all 'Friction Wheel Drive' snowblowers.

The problem is that if the drive belt slips, the machine will not move.  If the rubber tire like friction wheel becomes hard and glazed, it will not properly grip the flat metal Drive plate, and you again, won't move.  In fact if the plate surface is slick from wear, or the friction wheel rubber is worn down, like when the tire on your car becomes bald it will again not properly contact the drive plate and transfer the engines power to those tracks or tires. Usually before this occurs you get a period of use when the machine requires the operator, You, to push it when it encounters greater resistance.  So it may move forward until it has to push itself into that heavy salt laden "end of the Driveway" pile, and then the friction wheels reduced 'Friction' ability causes it to spin no longer as the drive plate becomes polished from rubbing against the immobile rubber surface.  Here you have two options, first is you shove the 200 pound machine into the snow, or second, you stop, take it back into the garage where you better have the new friction wheel rubber and the tools and know how to replace the worn one that has rendered your snowblower useless.  This happens to such machines as a result of normal use, and depending upon how much wear that friction wheel suffers from the normal use of the machine.  Thus a snowblower moving light powder all the time will go much longer than the same machine used to throw, and push itself into wet heavy snow which wears the friction wheel more, and thus wears it out much faster.  If you happen to live in a climate where the snow is often wet and heavy, rather trhan light and fluffy powder, you should evalutae your ability to deal with this maintenance item.  Your owners manual will supply the repair procedure for this in most cases, as well as a parts diagram so you can order, and have on hand the necessary new rubber tire for that friction wheel.   The manufacturer supplys that information precisely because they recognize the fact that your snowblower will, at some point, require this work be done.  I personally understand all this from about ten years owning an Ariens Snowblower, followed by 15 years with an MTD built Sears Craftsman snowblower, both with the same friction wheel drive mechanism.    Where I live in southeastern New York State, wet heavy snow is the rule, light fluffy powder is the exception.  This resulted in having to change these friction wheel rubbers about every two years on average, so my next new snowblower choice eliminated the problem entirely, albeit at some considerable cost.

The alternative system employs an actual 'Transmission'.  My John Deere Lawn Tractor ( X-300R) has such a transmission, and it has been problem free for many years.  So I paid as much for a new Honda, hydrostatic Transmission Driven snowblower (HS 928 TAS) as I paid for that John Deere tractor.  The extra cost to me was worth it. 

Now I do not tell everyone to buy the same machine I did, or even to avoid the friction wheel drive system common to most other snowblowers.  I simply think that BEFORE you spend the money on that new snowblower you know what you are buying.  The manufacturers, store clerks, and even Consumer Reports magazine will NOT tell you, as I just did, the Reality of owning those simple less expensive drive systems.   By reading this you now understand : A)- How the thing works, B)- What To expect, and WHY, and C) - You now can buy based on an Informed Choice without discovering the hard way what will happen from normal use to your snowblower. 

Thankyou for that long explanation of how the disc drive system works , although I think that most of us know how they work, if we have ever owned one.

Yawwwwwwnnnnnnnn........

I suspect if you were wearing out your friction disk out every 2 years you were trying either moving too fast through the wet snow or the spring tension on the drive plate was inadequate to keep good pressure on the friction disk causing slippage.  If the snow blower is allowed to process the snow through the auger and impeller there should be little resistance due to forward motion to the drive train, thus little to no slippage between the friction disk and the drive disk resulting in virtually no wear. The main downfall of the friction disk is that it will dry out and get hard thus loosing traction, but this takes a long time to happen 8 to 10 years.  Trying to move the snow blower faster than it's ability to process the snow will result in the friction disk slipping and thus wearing out prematurely.

A new set of tires on a performance car will generally last 25,000 miles if driven easy.  If you abuse them you can kill them is less than 2,000 miles.

The weak link in the friction disk design is people think the snow blower is a snow plow.   The drive system is designed to propel the machine forward not push snow.  

Understanding how your machine works and using it properly will go a long way to it living a long and trouble free life.

I just replaced the original friction disk on a 1983 Large Frame Cub Cadet when i rebuilt it this past summer.  The friction disk showed no signs of cracking or chunking but was getting hard.   While it still pulled well enough that i could not hold back the snow blower on dry pavement, it was an inexpensive part and as i was replacing all of the bearings and bushings as well as the engine in this rebuild.

This machine had the original friction disk in it for  28 years.


While Hydrostatic transmissions are nice, for a residential snow blower in the northeast the friction disk is more than adequate of used properly.


Carl

royster wrote:
Yet many people do not and certainly very few people contemplating the purchase of their first two stage snowblower understand how they work. The manufacturers don't seem to provide any such explanations.  They seldom even tell us how much the machine weighs, or what the Horsepower or Torque the engines provide.  It is also worth knowing how they work because some brands made a friction wheel and drive plate larger, and thus more capable than others.   If you were, for example, to call the tech line at Ariens they would provide you with that data, though they do not actually post it anywhere as a specification.   I have not found that any other brands even provide the same data when asked.   When you consider that the power from the engine cannot drive the machine except through these 'Friction Discs' and their rubber tires, then the width of that tire and diameter of the tire will be useful information, just as a truck wears a larger tire size than a car to be capable of more severe use.    If you take the time to research this, you will discover the friction discs are not the same size for similar size engines.  If you were to order the replacement 'Tire' for the friction disc from two different brands of similar size snowblowers, you can prove this yourself.   You would do well to then purchase the one with the larger friction tire capable of doing heavier work, and lasting longer when tasked with the heavy work of snowblowing.  
. 

New_Yorker wrote:
My point is that if the machine is used properly there is very little stress on the entire drive system.  The drive systems only purpose it to move the machine forward or backward,  95% of the energy from the engine should be going to the task of snow removal not to the propulsion of the machine. Driving the snow blower into the snow until either the tires or the friction disk is slipping means you have not processed the snow already in the bucket and must slow down and let the machine do its job.

carlb wrote: You make the mistaken assumption that the machine must be abused or misused to have the friction disc fail.  If you regularly plow wet heavy snow, and have a steep uphill driveway, or some other factor that taxes the drive then it fails more quickly.  I had a track driven MTD machine that did this kind of work, and the tracks grip so well they never slip on the surface when the forward motion of the machine hits an impediment like heavier snow or a block of ice.  What ' SLIPS' then is this rubber Friction tire against that Drive Plate.   Each person has different conditions, and the ability to understand the mechanism and its limitations is just a part of making a wise purchase.  A friction disc that goes 28 years is certainly an exceptional case.  Most people will replace their snowblower long before it is that old.  I doubt even the manufacturers would ever suggest the whole machine they sold you would last so long, much less the rubber tire on the friction disc.   Your last statement for me, any obviously most of us who pay the far greater cost of the Honda snowblowers, would not seem to hold up.   Nice that your machine was never taxed quite as severely and was thus able to last so long, for many people that is just not realistic to assume.   

carlb wrote:

Carl,

These are your opinions, and they add to the discussion, so Thank You for them.  But you are replacing bearings and even the engine on a snowblower whose friction wheel tire hasn't worn out in 28 years, If I accept what you say.  The manufacturer supplies the procedure in the owners manual for replacing the Rubber Tire of the friction disc.  The Owners manual expects that to wear out on a regular basis, as mine did.  The owners manual DOES NOT provide instruction for replacing the engine, as you have had to do.  This suggests that your example is fairly UNIQUE.  Most snowblowers have their friction disc rubber replaced regularly, and their engines replaced very, very seldom, almost never.  This accounts for why the owners manuals contain the information they do, and it does not include engine replacement.   I accept your 'experience' then as a Rare, Highly Unusual Exception that most peoploe who buy Friction Drive snowblowers will never experience.  But thank you for the story it is indeed unusual.

As for a residential use of the snowblower, the hydrostatic Transmission driven machines simply makes it less maintenance intensive.  Any and All who doubt this fact need only investigate the many, many opinions about Honda Snowblowers over the years to discover that their owners universally rave about their performance, their longevity, and their low maintenance.  

*sigh* here we go again ... NY is right next to NJ, isn't it?

New_Yorker wrote:
We are talking about snow blowers not snow plows

Here is a picture of my 28 year old 11/26 Cub Cadet snow blower.  I suspect it will last at least another 28 years.  26" wide 22" tall bucket 11hp, 12 volt electric key start with backup pull start, on board battery, 16" augers 14" impeller 328lbs and a true posi-traction differential for effortless steering.  Since this photo electric chute controls, hand warmers and roller skids have been added

New_Yorker wrote:
All of the bushings and bearings were replaced not because they had failed, they were replaced because the entire machine was being re-built and needed to be striped down to paint.  Anyone who would not replace these parts in this instance would be a fool. The old 8hp flat head was loud and somewhat tired,  The 11hp OHV engine now on it was well worth the money and gave me a lot more power.

Carl