Outdoor Power Equipment (Lawn Mowers, Snow Blowers, Chain Saws and more) Discussions

LCT and Loncin are getting their names out there.  Now Toro is going with Loncin.  Ariens has LCT on all three of their Sno-Tek blowers.  Husqvarna has the new revived LCT Snow King (Tecumseh "revival") on some of their blowers.  So who's best?  Will Briggs end up putting engines only on their own Simplicity, JD, Snapper models?

We need to give them 10 years to establish a track record.

That will also give us time to forget about all the klinkers B&S, Tecumseh, and Clinton threw at us over the years.

FWIW, the Loncin on my 2011 Toro 421 has performed very well for one season.

Plenty of power and no problems whatsoever.

Had the recall done, but I never had any of the fuel leaks that many had.

Personal opinion, but I think one reason I didn't have any fuel problems is that I don't use Gasohol in anything.

CharlesW wrote:

How does anyone avoid the nanny state, Federal mandate of E10, the big disaster that it is? Don't mean to derail the thread...

manjestic wrote:

No problem avoiding E10 in Iowa.

There is no Federal mandate and Iowa hasn't made it mandatory.

They do have the state tax set-up so E10 is about 5% cheaper. I gladly pay the 5% difference for gasoline without Ethanol in it.

I also feel the 4% to 5% price difference is about equal to the reduced mileage my vehicle gets with E10.

Makes it a tradeoff economically and E10 certainly isn't benefiting the environment. The only advantage I see is getting 10% less fuel from someone that wants to kill us.

The Mythical E10 Mandate

Many people misunderstand what the country in general — and their state in particular — is required to do about ethanol in auto gasoline. First, let’s look at the BIG picture: There is no federal mandatory E10 law. Many people believe that there is, but it is not true.

There are only six states with active mandatory ethanol laws and only five of those have mandatory E10 laws. The five states with active mandatory E10 laws are, in order of implementation: Minnesota, Hawaii, Missouri, Oregon, and Florida. The state of Washington has a wimpy mandatory 2% volumetric ethanol law. Two states have mandatory E10 laws on the books that have never triggered, and probably never will, Montana and Pennsylvania, and one other state has one of those useless 2% volumetric laws on its books that has never triggered, Louisiana.

Info current as of September 2011.

Charles, How much can you send me?? We are stuck with the Ethanol mix here, major PITA. I personally haven't run either, but I hope LCT motors work better than their website.

I agree that the Chinese clones will need much more time to prove their durability.  Ten years, in my view, is not enough.  I've got inexpensive B&S and Tecumseh engines 30 years old and not showing any signs of giving up soon.  Chinese engines need at least 30 years to prove that they're as good as the engines of old.  However, if modern B&S and other domestic engines don't last as long as their older ones do, they'll be as questionable as the the Chinese engines. 

Basically the same debate: Ford Pinto vs. Yugo: who's best? ;)

Scot

sscotsman wrote:
I owned a 1999 Ford Pinto until last year.   I had 450,000 kms on it.    It had good power  but, it wasn't that easy on gas, only about 30 mpg  on the highway.  I had the valve seals replaced at 200,000 kms   Other than sparkplug changes every 50,000 kms, I had no other costs.     I once towed my neighbour's  Yugo for 100 kms , it was worn out at 10,000 kms.  

royster wrote:

I thought Ford stopped making those in the late 70's/early 80's????

pants on fire!

The Pinto was made 1971–1980.

royster,

did your 1999 pinto have a friction disk system? or are you going to change your pinto year to 1979?  i really doubt your 1999 pinto with 400km would have lasted 20 years of salt and more salt.

We had a Pinto that was in a city where I used to live and on teh back it had a sticker acroos teh entire back bumper that said

DANGER! EXPLOSIVE!  I think it had radiation decals as well.

No idea what year but this was like 10 years ago. It wasn't all rusted out which is a miracle for New England winters.

Of course it might have been all bondo under the paint.

I remember giving the Ford Pinto, and it's twin brother the Mercury Bobcat, a wide berth when traveling near either one....

Ford Pinto - There's no subsitute.  Nothing can be uglier  :) 

Ford's answer to the Porsche 924

Don't forget the AMC Pacer or even worse the Yugo whose seats felt like they were made of clay.

Pontiac Aztec was voted ugliest car of all time! The Pinto was similar to the Pacer which looked like a pregnant turtle.

My Toro snowblower looks like a Ferrari compared to those cars!

Loved my 'ole Pinto, 1971, 2.0L, ran it in P pure stock at Dover Plains and Lebanon Valley dragstrips back in the day, 17.89 times +/-. Chewed up Opel GT's, Duster 318's, etc. , gas was cheap also. A bit off topic but I felt good commenting on this great site....................keep up the good work.......

borat wrote:
Sorry, I hate to interject and derail this thread :)

It's a good point that time will really tell how reliable the Chinese engines really are. Otherwise it's easy to fall prey to what could perhaps be called Consumer Reports syndrome, rating things based on how they perform after 3 weeks, not 10+ years (when an MTD gets a better rating than a Honda). But my other concern with the "off-brand" engines (regardless of country of origin) is whether you'll be able to get parts in 5 years, never mind 25 years.

And how many engines will be retired before their time because you can't get a carb rebuild kit for them? Or because no info is available, like service manuals, or parts lists? It's tough to try and order "the little round metal thing with the hole in it", especially when you can't find a local dealer for that brand, but you'll have more luck if you know you're looking for part 9327481.

Personally, that's one of my biggest fears with these engines (though maybe it's an unfounded fear). Even though Tecumseh is gone, I have been able to get the parts I need so far. And the service manual has been a big help, as well as experienced & helpful people on forums like this. But as the industry fragments with a greater number of smaller manufacturers, I can see things becoming more difficult.

I see it as somewhat the same principle as Craftsman vs. whoever (Toro/Ariens/Honda/take your pick). It's hard finding other people who may have experienced the same problem that you're having with your 917.243783 snowblower/tractor from a few years ago. That size model may have been built by AYP that year, and someone else the year before. But a lot of people may have the Ariens ST824 (or Toro equivalent, etc) which was made as largely the same machine for a number of years, and there's more of a knowledge/history base.

A lot of people have worked on Tecumseh 8hp L-heads. Fewer people have worked on a Brand X, Model Y, which may not even exist next year, or may be under a different name. As an easy example, Harbor Freight sold Greyhound engines, now they sell Predator. That's 2 brands in ~2 years. And that's as many brands as Briggs and Tecumseh gave us in, what, 70+ years?

I think the reality of what's ahead is Chinese engines as well as many other products are here to stay for quite some time - like it or not. There's a billion person workforce with little to no environmental regulation, no OSHA type enforcement of health and safety for the workers, little copyright or trademark enforcement, etc, etc,..... the list goes on and on and on! The only way these Chinese companies are going to survive (for the long term) is if they produce a quality product, make a good name for themselves, respect their workers and stand behind the product they produce. At some point they will need to gain the respect of the western countries who are purchasing their goods and provide some modicum of environmental concern, worker health and safety and conformity to the copyright and tradmark laws that exist in the "real" world.

FrankMA wrote:

That is all true Frank, but the Chinese do not operate that way. Their current workers want more pay more benefits etc...

So the Chinese Gov't is moving work further inland where there currently is little to no work available. So more cheap labor.

They are having to build new roads and infrastructure but they are ok with that. They will keep finding new workers further and further from the coast until the cost of shipping wipes out the difference in pay.

Quality is trivial they want "good enough" products, cut corners anyway they can and maximize profits. They make copies of copies of copies of originals.

Branded Nike shoes sold in the Philippines as genuine are copies from China but they have the original's price for example.

Can't entirely agree with Steve.

Their quality cutting in pursuit of more profits might happen with unauthorized pirating of various products.  However, when a company such as Ariens for instance, contracts Chinese to supply engines, I'd be confident that Ariens did their homework.  I would have to assume that they laid out their contractual agreement to ensure a certain level of quality, dependability and durability is met.  I would also assume that Ariens likely test engines on a regular basis as part of their own quality control program.  After all, supplying lemon engines on an otherwise quality machine would not make very good business sense now would it?

You are still going to see batches of QC issues, manufacturing I know quite well. I read a fair amount about what is going on in China and the problems they have.

Ariens has their own QC dept you can be 100% certain of that. Most companies do. The thing is you can't test every engine. You test it in lots like every 1,000 engines or whatever number they feel is appropriate.

As the old saying goes "Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip."

Now when a company finds a bad product on a teardown they will stop and start checking a huge amount of product until they get to both ends. The defective batches are more frequent than people realize.

Many companies catch it and it's good, but cutting corners is SOP in China and goes on daily.

This isn't just Ariens or Loncin or just snowblowers this is almost everything they produce. I've seen a lot of screwups in our own shop and I know how we fix things. Or rather did since the plant will be shutdown for good in a few days.

Maybe so Steve but generally speaking, from what I've read (and experienced), the consensus regarding Chinese engines has been pretty much positive.  There are also certain Chinese companies who have improved their products to get a leg up on their competitors.  LCT, Champion, Loncin and Kippor seem to be building a good reputation in the Americas.   And let's not forget that you can buy a 6 h.p. Chonda for as little as $99.00.   For that kind of money, a five year engine life wouldn't be all that bad.

Another thing I want to add is that back in the late 70's the North America auto industry did some serious cost cutting to improve the bottom line.  The result was some of the worst automobiles ever to fall apart on our highways.   So the Chinese aren't alone when it comes to compromising quality.  If it weren't for the Japanese,  our auto manufacturers would still be pumping out junk.

Oh you can be certain cost cutting goes on all the time in every country.

McDonalds knows eaxctly how much ketchup csts and how much to put on each burger saving a ton of money every year.

American manufacturing went south a while back. My soon to be former employer used a lot of vendors and we got junk it that was just so messed up it was amazing they had the guts to ship it to us!

I could recount enless stories (all true) about the BS that is pulled every single day, but I won't.

China cuts corners whereever and whenever they can. This sadly is true across the board in manufacturing in the US as well as other countries.

Maybe someday Loncin will be up there but right now it's up and coming and still doesn't have a long enough track record.

I agree with pretty much everything you say Steve.  All of the Chinese brands need a lot more time in the field to qualify their overall quality. 

From what I've read, the most notable failure in Chinese engines was the quality of the fasteners used in critical applications.  Many of the bolts and screws in the earlier engines were made of very soft steel which would loosen off easily and break when tightened.  Replacing the weak fasteners (head bolts for instance) was one way to improve the engine's reliability.   Other than that, I've not heard of any other serious quality issues and I've not heard much lately of poor fasteners either.  I know the two Chonda engines I have seem to be very nice units.  Visually, they look very nicely built.  Clean castings, nice fit and finish.  the paint is even nice. 

I know you are the expert when it comes to engines and the nuts and bolts of snowblowers.

I'm just concerned about quality over time with these companies. It's good to know that some of them are doing a good job.

borat wrote:
I can't comment on longevity because I don't  have any experience with Chinese engines.

Many years ago, and maybe still for some small private shops now, quality meant that the products you produced would last for a long time (maybe generations), it was/is a point of pride for the craftsman. Now the words "planned obsolescence" are more the norm. Hence Borat's comment. Is it better to buy something cheap that will last a couple of years, then replace it when it breaks, and over & over? Big business sure thinks so, but I'm not so sure, since it will always break when you most need it & it's most inconvenient.
I worked in the purchasing department of a very large multinational for 25 years so I know what the word Quality means to them, and it's not the same thing it means to most of us. For them, the term "quality" means you build it to customer specs, no more and less if you can get away with it, and that goes for any big corporation anywhere. They all report to the shareholders, and shareholders want only one thing, PROFIT, at any cost. I once had a VP tell me that our shareholders were the most important thing to our company!!! "What about the  customers?" I asked. "not as important as the shareholders!" he replied.

Don't blame the Chinese, their shareholders only want their piece of the pie!

Occupy Wall Street was right, it's time the 99% stood up and demanded some of the pie!

I'll start buying chinese engines when they show me a detailed parts list and a guarantee that parts will be available for, say, 20 years.  I've got an old Isuzu Trooper that is in quite good condition, but it had to sit idle for lack of an unavailable (from both manufacturer and after market sources) emergency brake cable that I eventually rounded up at a junk yard.  Needed some reconditioning, but works OK now.

Dr_Woof wrote:
I don't know about all of the chinese engines but the older greyhound engines sold by harbor freight were direct knoffoffs of the Honda GX series and honda parts will interchange.

GtWtNorth wrote:

Thanks for sharing your view.

Customers showed to be as important as shareholders in the case of Netflix recently.

I do not blame the Chinese, it is the American corporations that outsource to China and ask for low quality products. Corporations some like to call as 'people'...

blumonster wrote:

Too easy to blame Chinese and ethanol for everything wrong with OPE, as if America is the only country that knows how to do anything right.

As if bargain hungry Walmart/Costco/HD customer has nothing to do with it.   Aint' going to get anything cheap coming out of Japan or USA.

I'm surprised there aren't more countries hating the Western world for the lifestyle, glut, and appetite.

aa335 wrote:
Agree with your comments aa335. 

If we North Americans weren't in everyone's back yard stirring the pot, we'd have a lot less animosity against us.  People have to wake up and understand that the military industrial complex supported by certain politicians needs conflict and wars to keep them in business.  Shut down the MIC and we will have a lot less strife in the world. 

The problem with that however, is the fact that the military industrial complex is now one of the biggest employers in the USA.   Taken them out and the jobless rate will go through the roof.  It's a very insidious economic dependence that will keep us sending our sons and daughters off to die in foreign lands just to fill the coffers of a certain few billionaires, all in the name of a "good cause" of course.   If we kept our noses out of other people's business, they wouldn't be trying to blow us up all the time. 

Apologize for going off topic.